Speaker 1: Welcome to Guys We Fucked Guys We Guys Book. I'm Christina.
Speaker 1: I'm We're sorry about last night anti sluck shaming podcast.
Speaker 1: I never stopped. Hey fucker's Welcome to another episode of
Speaker 1: Guys We Fucked If the Anti slut sham Podcast. I'm Karen.
Speaker 1: I'm Christina. Today's news story comes from Iran. Uh there
Speaker 1: was a nineteen year old girl who made a Instagram
Speaker 1: post where she was just dancing in her bedroom. What. Uh, well, yes,
Speaker 1: because uh in Iran, your your women are not allowed
Speaker 1: to dance in public. Oh so putting a post on
Speaker 1: social media is public? Yeah, I mean absolutely. Uh And
Speaker 1: so yeah, I'm guessing if they if they're if they're
Speaker 1: this is a New York Times article, So if they're
Speaker 1: specifically saying women can't dance in public, to me, that's
Speaker 1: saying men can. Men can dance in public because I'm
Speaker 1: sure you know, I'm sure it's considered to be sexual,
Speaker 1: and so man dances. We all know it ain't sexual. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: And she was arrested in May for dancing quietly. Um
Speaker 1: and her pay. Her Instagram page was taken down. And
Speaker 1: this is not like just some random woman. This is
Speaker 1: a woman who had six hundred thousand followers. Uh, and
Speaker 1: then they were kind of like, where had she gone?
Speaker 1: And so then uh, last Tuesday, on a TV show
Speaker 1: that's actually called Wrong Path in Iran, there was a
Speaker 1: blurred out image of her where she threw sobs, admitted
Speaker 1: that dancing is a crime and that her family had
Speaker 1: been unaware that she had been making videos of herself
Speaker 1: dancing in her bedroom. To quote Western songs like Bond, Bond,
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not even familiar with that something. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's not the Ricky Maru. And to their credit, a
Speaker 1: lot of people bull in Iran have been uh complaining, protesting,
Speaker 1: saying that they have it's corrupt and there there's a
Speaker 1: lack of personal freedoms, and many Iranians have posted videos
Speaker 1: of themselves dancing in protests, while thousands more of posted
Speaker 1: pictures of her and written supportive posts on their Instagram pages,
Speaker 1: which is great, Um, how do we get her out
Speaker 1: of jail? But yeah, well, I mean it's a there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people in Iran who have kind of
Speaker 1: been repowered by having America have President Trump, and so
Speaker 1: as we get more conservative in the Western world, they
Speaker 1: can kind of use that as an example to then
Speaker 1: govern their own society. Uh. And they're considering Instagram to
Speaker 1: be like a Western social media tool, so I think
Speaker 1: they're even trying to block the entire thing in iran um.
Speaker 1: And this just comes after another news story that I
Speaker 1: had in mind, which was a woman removed her Islamic
Speaker 1: head covering in a public protest in February and then
Speaker 1: she was sentenced to two years imprisonment and eight years
Speaker 1: of probation. So yeah, I mean, I think there's and
Speaker 1: this is an interesting way where we are so uh,
Speaker 1: I guess lucky that we can say whatever we want
Speaker 1: and use Instagram however we want. But kind of just
Speaker 1: pointing at how far behind some other countries still are
Speaker 1: and how terrified they are of the dancing women because yeah,
Speaker 1: because I mean we're talking she dances and my diggle
Speaker 1: dance and and how and I mean how opposed they are.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I think you know, I'm not not
Speaker 1: necessarily a pent on the side of like, you know,
Speaker 1: take your tits out whenever you want. I mean that,
Speaker 1: I mean, keep them in, you know, inside your shirt.
Speaker 1: I don't know you know it is, but I mean
Speaker 1: there's certainly shouldn't be laws where the government is telling
Speaker 1: you that you can't dance or you can't use your
Speaker 1: body the way that you can, and any personal rules
Speaker 1: I might have from my own body are absolutely uh different.
Speaker 1: But it just seems like, yeah, they're really they're actually
Speaker 1: really going in on YouTube stars and like Instagram stars.
Speaker 1: So I just think that's very interesting in a country
Speaker 1: where so many of us are making careers off of that,
Speaker 1: and then just kind of going back into the fact
Speaker 1: that like if we lived other places, we would have
Speaker 1: definitely been imprisoned for doing this. So, you know, as
Speaker 1: as bad as things seem now, I think it's good
Speaker 1: to see some world uh perspective. And if you need
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Speaker 1: Bieber and Haley just got engaged, so there's a lot
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Speaker 1: of you. Um, you could also see us Saturday, August eighteenth.
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Speaker 1: I don't go on that. Yeah, we don't, don't really,
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Speaker 1: the name I just ate it and I love it,
Speaker 1: oh emails. The subject line of this email girlfriend issues.
Speaker 1: Let's hear him. Hi, Current and Christina. I've been dating
Speaker 1: a lovely lady for four months ish and we both
Speaker 1: have been very sexually active in our past lives. I'm
Speaker 1: twenty nine and she's twenty seven, and from conversations we've had,
Speaker 1: we both agree that our twenties were great and the
Speaker 1: club slash hook up scene was super fun. A month ago,
Speaker 1: I was getting my screen fixed on my iPhone and
Speaker 1: she let me take her phone for navigation. Up to
Speaker 1: this point, we've trusted each other and been faithful as
Speaker 1: far as I know. Full disclaimer. I have trust issues
Speaker 1: from past relationships, which we've talked about, and she's been
Speaker 1: a great partner in the sense that she reassures me
Speaker 1: when I expressed these thoughts. Anyway, when I had her phone,
Speaker 1: a guy sent her naked pictures of herself herself. At
Speaker 1: this point, I went back through the text thread and
Speaker 1: read that that he texts her inappropriate things and while
Speaker 1: she doesn't encourage them, she doesn't shut shut it down
Speaker 1: and or tell him that she has a boyfriend. I
Speaker 1: confronted her about this, and she basically said that they
Speaker 1: used to date, but he's had a girlfriend for a while,
Speaker 1: and since he lives across the country, she didn't think
Speaker 1: it was a big deal. Fast forward a month, she
Speaker 1: still hasn't told him to stop sending her inappropriate text
Speaker 1: so I asked her again if there's anything I have
Speaker 1: to worry about, and she got defensive, saying that I
Speaker 1: don't trust her, which I guess I don't fully. I
Speaker 1: told her, if she wants to stay in this relationship,
Speaker 1: need her to be able to be proud that we're
Speaker 1: dating and when guys approach her, to tell them that
Speaker 1: she has a boyfriend and if they value their friendship,
Speaker 1: they can't send inappropriate stuff anymore. She agreed, and then
Speaker 1: said that it's easier for her to just let people
Speaker 1: take advantage of her instead of confronting them, because confrontation
Speaker 1: scares the ship out of her. BOO hoo, which I understand.
Speaker 1: I added the boo hoo. I'm not going to pretend
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to be a woman, especially
Speaker 1: with all the gross students in the world. I think
Speaker 1: this is because a lack of confidence and her conditioning
Speaker 1: that her needs come second to a male's. Am I
Speaker 1: out of line here? How can I empower her to
Speaker 1: be better able to deal with this without making her defensive.
Speaker 1: I've already told her that I love her and I'm
Speaker 1: there for her no matter what, But I'm afraid that
Speaker 1: this is going to be our downfall someday. Thanks and
Speaker 1: keep up the podcast. I have a lot of male
Speaker 1: uh female friends who have benefited from it. Um okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I don't think. I think I feel like a lot.
Speaker 1: I feel like you both misinterpreting shit. You've been dating
Speaker 1: her for four ish months. That obviously your boyfriend girlfriend,
Speaker 1: so I assume that means you're exclusive. If my boyfriend
Speaker 1: of four months was getting naked picks from a chick,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, say, well, ha, will happen? Uh what?
Speaker 1: And I'm not I'm not cool with that. I'm not
Speaker 1: cool with that. That's weird. I don't get it. Why
Speaker 1: do you need that, so I don't think and then
Speaker 1: and then her getting like, wow, you need to like
Speaker 1: calm down. Basically from the tone of his emails, that's
Speaker 1: what I've gathered, like you don't trust me, bitch, you're
Speaker 1: sexy with somebody, or you're receiving sex from somebody. I
Speaker 1: don't buy the it's easier to just let people take
Speaker 1: advantage of me. They're taking advantage of her there sending
Speaker 1: her sex and naked photos. I mean, that's if you
Speaker 1: don't want those, you say no, well you because it's
Speaker 1: someone that she used to date, that she could have
Speaker 1: an unhealthy relationship still with him even though they're no
Speaker 1: longer the significant others. It could have been like manipulative
Speaker 1: and controlling and he's stoked, like casting that Uh oh
Speaker 1: that that web on her. There was another word that
Speaker 1: I was looking for that Uh it's a fishing thing
Speaker 1: up whatever, uh and uh and so and so that
Speaker 1: could still be like remnants of that because I actually
Speaker 1: do know people who are have like come out of
Speaker 1: semi abusive relationships who even when they move on to
Speaker 1: new relationships, still feel like they are kind of a
Speaker 1: prisoner or beholden to this ex boyfriend or girlfriend. Um,
Speaker 1: but it's also like you mean, just as an adult
Speaker 1: woman and for her own sake or in or out
Speaker 1: of this relationship, you need to set boundaries of things
Speaker 1: that are not okay. So it's like, is she okay
Speaker 1: with it? Is she not okay with it? But not
Speaker 1: wing to see it up for herself. It's unclear to
Speaker 1: me still really how she feels about it. Um, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's not appropriate. I don't think he's out
Speaker 1: of line for that's that's yeah, that's appropriate. There's nothing
Speaker 1: like but there's nothing you're doing wrong. Yeah, I would.
Speaker 1: But having that conversation I think is a good point. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and if you know, just be like, hey, this is
Speaker 1: can you not because she's like, stop sexting me? I'm
Speaker 1: not I mean an monogamous relationship and if the person
Speaker 1: lashes out on her, that person's a psychopath and she
Speaker 1: should just be blocked. I mean, I don't, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't really know what's going on why people just
Speaker 1: can't be more direct, I know, especially with something like that.
Speaker 1: Speaking of directness, I was home. I was talking to
Speaker 1: my brother who's on dating apps, and we were talking
Speaker 1: and he was telling me this thing that I thought
Speaker 1: was so interesting. He was saying, He's like, do you
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this, Nina, but a
Speaker 1: lot of girls like that I'm seeing on these various
Speaker 1: dating apps if they have herpes, they'll put in their
Speaker 1: profile and and uh. And he told me about I'm like, really,
Speaker 1: I've never seen a guy put that in any kind
Speaker 1: of profile, whether it was I'm on thrender which is
Speaker 1: purely sexual, or hinge or whatever. And I was like, damn,
Speaker 1: that's great. And also he told me about this experience
Speaker 1: where a girl asked him out on a date. She
Speaker 1: did not have that in her profile, but she said
Speaker 1: before the date, she just said, you know, before we
Speaker 1: go on this date, I want to tell you, like
Speaker 1: I have herpes and X y Z these are you know,
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure you know that and
Speaker 1: you're right with that and uh and he was like, oh, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, we'll go on a date. Date was great.
Speaker 1: And then she asked him out on a second date.
Speaker 1: You know, it was inquiring like when we gonna go
Speaker 1: on at it again? And he he said no because
Speaker 1: of the herpies thing, basically, and I thought the two
Speaker 1: things that I thought were interesting one that people, you know,
Speaker 1: only only women. I haven't even dude's doing this yet,
Speaker 1: but they're putting that on the profile or leading with
Speaker 1: that in a comfortable way. I think it's great. I
Speaker 1: do think it just got me thinking of um, because
Speaker 1: of how many people have it, like of women and
Speaker 1: of women and of men living in the United States
Speaker 1: have genital herpies. So the odds that you have slept
Speaker 1: with somebody who's herpes and tell you it's pretty high.
Speaker 1: And for various reasons, shame them not getting tested and
Speaker 1: just not knowing and never having a breakout, So how
Speaker 1: would they know? Um? But I think you know, we're
Speaker 1: I always try to push like it's not that big
Speaker 1: of a deal. It's not that a give a deal.
Speaker 1: I personally, it wouldn't be a deterrent factor because I
Speaker 1: know how hard it is to spread it and I
Speaker 1: know how to take those precautions, and that doesn't bother
Speaker 1: me because it's not like it's really putting in an
Speaker 1: extra bump in the road for me. UM. But because
Speaker 1: of that, I think telling a person and I'm curious
Speaker 1: what you think telling a person before the first day
Speaker 1: is making it a bigger deal. Do you think that
Speaker 1: because in my opinion, like anytime I ever give advice
Speaker 1: to anybody about this conversation and a lot of people
Speaker 1: bemail us about it, I would get to know the
Speaker 1: person before I told them. I wouldn't lead with that
Speaker 1: because then I'm putting all this pressure on it and
Speaker 1: then they, as a result, might put it. If I
Speaker 1: had it, I would tell people before before things if
Speaker 1: it looked like things were possibly going in the direction
Speaker 1: when we would ever have sex, before it got there,
Speaker 1: I would say, hey, I just want to let you know. Um,
Speaker 1: I would really feel really violated if somebody slept with
Speaker 1: me knowing they had an STD and didn't tell me.
Speaker 1: And uh, so I don't want to do that to you. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: somebody did do that to me. If that is the case, Um,
Speaker 1: that's not always how it's spread, but um, and so
Speaker 1: I just want to tell you I've heard bees. This
Speaker 1: is how it's spread, this is what everything you could do,
Speaker 1: These are the chances of you know, spreading it. And
Speaker 1: but I feel like just mentioning it during that time
Speaker 1: makes it less of a big deal. That's because you're
Speaker 1: someone who likes to talk and feels comfortable talking about
Speaker 1: things I think if you are someone who feels less
Speaker 1: comfortable having a conversation like that, it's much easier to
Speaker 1: just put in the profile, you know what, to meet profile.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but but I'm yeah, the profile I totally
Speaker 1: get because then you don't have to have that conversation.
Speaker 1: I think that's great. But saying it before a guy,
Speaker 1: like before you go on a date, versus saying like
Speaker 1: if you're dating off and app and someone yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about putting in your profile. I just
Speaker 1: think that's cool that people are doing that, because that
Speaker 1: is like a low key like oh yeah, by the way, ps,
Speaker 1: but um well no, it just feels weird to do
Speaker 1: it in in in person date. It just doesn't feel
Speaker 1: it just doesn't feel natural. But I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 1: people with herpies know what makes them feel comfortable. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure people who maybe who have been through enough
Speaker 1: dates where they got to like somebody and then I
Speaker 1: said herpies and then it was a deal breaker. I
Speaker 1: think it's more protecting your yourself from falling for somebody
Speaker 1: and then having them, uh, I guess disappoint you or
Speaker 1: make you feel more rejected for something that you don't
Speaker 1: really see it as a big deal. I mean, because
Speaker 1: it depends a good reason. Yeah, it's just like you know,
Speaker 1: and and there's should be no shame in herpes. But
Speaker 1: also it's like we're all bringing shipped to the table.
Speaker 1: So like I've said it before, like at thirty two,
Speaker 1: if I can avoid getting herpies, like I don't think
Speaker 1: it's bad for me to say that I would like
Speaker 1: to avoid getting it. I would like I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: so it's like, well, and I don't even in the profile.
Speaker 1: That's an instance where like if I don't even know you, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm probably not gonna like immerse myself into that. But
Speaker 1: if it's someone I knew in real life and like
Speaker 1: already had a crush on or a connection with and
Speaker 1: they had herpes, that's a different story. But like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna just go out into the internet avoid
Speaker 1: and like you know, there's just there's just too many people,
Speaker 1: and especially like no one's that special and the plus
Speaker 1: there's a ton of people who already have herpies and
Speaker 1: they can just sleep together. I mean, is there an
Speaker 1: app for U? Yeah, there's an app for people who
Speaker 1: already have scia. But that's I mean but then the
Speaker 1: saying like, if you have this, then you susul only
Speaker 1: sleep with somebody else who has this. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: it's a preference. I mean there's a million preferences. You know,
Speaker 1: there's you know, there's preferences. But it's like, but you know,
Speaker 1: you can't take somebody's preference personally, right, And it's like,
Speaker 1: you know a lot So for me, I wouldn't. I
Speaker 1: would avoid having sex with someone who had herpes if
Speaker 1: I could, but I would date someone who was tran,
Speaker 1: who was a transman. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people that would rather date someone with herpies just because
Speaker 1: it's like that's what our preference and you really can't.
Speaker 1: And I know there's arguments nowadays that like your preference
Speaker 1: is informed by the things that you in, take, the
Speaker 1: porn that you watch, the things that you read, the
Speaker 1: life that you grew up on. But it's like we're
Speaker 1: not going to undo all that, so it's sure maybe
Speaker 1: who wants to. Yeah, it's just like everyone has a preference,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's just like at this point, I'm
Speaker 1: just trying to fucking avoid anything that's gonna make my
Speaker 1: life more difficult, really, and I think that's fair. Hey,
Speaker 1: agree to what you want. Oh, man, our guest today.
Speaker 1: I'm really really really Oh do you have anything personal
Speaker 1: you want to say? Sorry? No, that I was. I
Speaker 1: mean it was what would I do this week? I
Speaker 1: drank like fourteen times and I spent most of the
Speaker 1: weekend like hungover. So I need to just not I've
Speaker 1: been having too much fun because this was like our
Speaker 1: kind of This was like our real vacation where we're
Speaker 1: home for a couple of weeks and then we're working
Speaker 1: for like the rest of the fucking year. So I
Speaker 1: just really lived it up good, really live poor liver. Um.
Speaker 1: I didn't off, and I had one thing I wanted
Speaker 1: to say. There's this play that I took her into.
Speaker 1: It was the first time I went. We went together
Speaker 1: because I want to get her a cool birthday gift
Speaker 1: and uh it's called and then she fell and I
Speaker 1: went to see it for the third time with a friend.
Speaker 1: So first time was sober, second time I had smoked weed,
Speaker 1: and third time molly. Which you know, if you're going
Speaker 1: to do that, really research it and be very smart.
Speaker 1: But there's a very smart ways to do this, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta take vitamins and ship. But wow,
Speaker 1: what was your favorite way to experience it? After out
Speaker 1: of the Molly? But because I'm so glad, I would
Speaker 1: never do it, Like I'm really IMMERSI theater is my
Speaker 1: new favorite thing in the entire world, and I I'm
Speaker 1: probably gonna go see And then she fell eight more
Speaker 1: times and you should see it if you have. And
Speaker 1: it was very different each time, right, because every fucking time,
Speaker 1: and I learned. And because the person I went with
Speaker 1: last night was a guy. He went into this room
Speaker 1: that I had never been in. We're young. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a story of Louis Carol and Allison Wonderland and
Speaker 1: Alice and you know there are pedophilic. You know, she's pedophile.
Speaker 1: But the way that they made the story, she looks
Speaker 1: sixteen seventeen, which is still you know, yeah, but if
Speaker 1: you actually I was like, I got if you gave
Speaker 1: you research it and I went from from that, I
Speaker 1: got obsessed with it and like basically, like Louis Carroll
Speaker 1: just hang out with this like child, yeah, like a
Speaker 1: seven year old. She was very yeah, but you guys,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I mean it still doesn't ruin this this
Speaker 1: show for me, it's fucking incredible. And uh, but there's
Speaker 1: this room that if you're a dude, because I've been
Speaker 1: in three times and I thought I saw all the rooms,
Speaker 1: um that the guy goes in and young Alice, who
Speaker 1: she's clearly an adult woman playing this person, but she
Speaker 1: looks she has useful skin, she has youthful hair if
Speaker 1: you know the casting, and that is very specific. And
Speaker 1: she does this thing where she like half undresses. Oh
Speaker 1: I heard about that. To the women, why not, that's
Speaker 1: so stupid because they're trying to make the guy see
Speaker 1: Maybe this was a theory we talked about after the show.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're trying to make the guy like see through
Speaker 1: the eyes of Louis Carol. Maybe I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: she wasn't seven. That's a lot different. I mean this
Speaker 1: was a grown as woman being weird. But I wonder
Speaker 1: if that was why I'm so fascinating. I did hear
Speaker 1: about that room because another friend I had, who as
Speaker 1: the mail went into it and then saw it, told
Speaker 1: me about that room, and I was like, I don't funk.
Speaker 1: I don't recall that room. But go see a third
Speaker 1: rail third Rail Productions or something sh it like that.
Speaker 1: It's just really third Real project. I think it is
Speaker 1: third Real because I just got an email it is
Speaker 1: third Rail. I just don't have his production or project
Speaker 1: third Rail. Then she felt you can find it. Our
Speaker 1: guest today is a very dear friend, somebody I am
Speaker 1: honored to have in my life. She is an early
Speaker 1: childhood educator and she has really interesting, fascinating and depth
Speaker 1: thoughts about masculinity, femininity, the patriarchy, and how we raise
Speaker 1: young men and young woman. Ladies and gentlemen. Please welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Gen Hayes. Can't nobody treat me like
Speaker 1: he does, giving me what I want without a cudgel.
Speaker 1: Hug get in, get out, no conversation in between. I'm
Speaker 1: telling you how it is. Not tryna be mean. I
Speaker 1: mean I like to get it what I wanted when
Speaker 1: I wanted, and then I get it. Then I get
Speaker 1: it what I wanted. You go home, listen, close, don't
Speaker 1: get it twisted again. I don't want you or your
Speaker 1: fucked up friends. Boy, I don't need you. I got
Speaker 1: a suction cup, sil tho sucktion cup, still though suction
Speaker 1: cup and still so boy, I don't need you. I
Speaker 1: got a suction cup, till sucking cup still though, suction
Speaker 1: cup still Okay, we are here with Gene. Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to have you on. I've wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to you for so long. Every time I hang out
Speaker 1: with Geane, we always have the most amazing conversations about
Speaker 1: specifically masculinity. We've known each other for how long since? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I guess since high school? Yeah, so since I was
Speaker 1: like sixteen. You weren't in frank of Me. You were
Speaker 1: in Zombie Problem. Yeah that one sounds more fun. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Zombie Problem was a fun one, no fense. We did
Speaker 1: have a good time, and franking me was a bumber
Speaker 1: Yeah that No, Zombie brom was good. It was pretty,
Speaker 1: you know, pretty like classic high school theater. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: then Annie was our musical. Oh yeah, and then Gene, um,
Speaker 1: would you catch me? No? This is what No, what
Speaker 1: happened was we couldn't find you because did you high
Speaker 1: school ever? Havelckins krin for theater? Uh not for we
Speaker 1: had we just it wasn't a call to lock in.
Speaker 1: But just like we all knew that none of us
Speaker 1: were getting out there until four in the morning, they
Speaker 1: didn't know it wasn't sleep over party like the voluntary
Speaker 1: as I am from a town everyone would have been pregnant.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not well problematic the girl was trying to get pregnant. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would never in, That would never go down. I
Speaker 1: was a mad I was a fucking virgin. So yeah,
Speaker 1: at the end of the debt, well day night, I
Speaker 1: don't know, it was like it wasn't no more to Annie.
Speaker 1: The cast party, which was a lock in, which does
Speaker 1: sound like a terrible word. I don't know, it does
Speaker 1: sound like that word, but I sort of appreciate that
Speaker 1: you're used. It was my mid my middle school used
Speaker 1: that word. Um. And then the only rule was that
Speaker 1: you couldn't go on the balcony in the theater. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then at eight o'clock in the morning, we were
Speaker 1: all like, okay, it's time to go, and we couldn't
Speaker 1: find Christina because she was making out in the balcony.
Speaker 1: Another girl making out the boy in the balcony Amanda,
Speaker 1: oh oh yeah, the two first names. Yeah. And what
Speaker 1: happened was they were all looking for me for like
Speaker 1: an hour. I had no idea, I'm just making out
Speaker 1: with Drew. But then the best part was that we
Speaker 1: looked up in the balcony. You just see these four
Speaker 1: heads like pop out, so I think it was Pean.
Speaker 1: It was like there they are up there, and I
Speaker 1: was like, what second one talking about? In my head
Speaker 1: popped up, and then Drew's head popped up, and then
Speaker 1: everyone mooed and odd and I was forced to clean
Speaker 1: up the theater as punishment, and I found twenty dollars.
Speaker 1: Oh that's not Yeah, that was the last year they
Speaker 1: did that, because I think some like because they happened.
Speaker 1: Probably yeah, some weird stuff happened and the teachers were like,
Speaker 1: you sluck ruined everything. I just think it's so funny
Speaker 1: that it because they did that for years and they
Speaker 1: never lost someone in the balcony. That's a shocked Well, hey,
Speaker 1: where there's a will, there's a way. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: it just sounds like a very high school just a
Speaker 1: very dangerous idea. Was so I was mostly sober in
Speaker 1: high school. I only drank a couple times in high school.
Speaker 1: I can't believe that he never drank. It good for
Speaker 1: me that we didn't. I feel like that wasn't a
Speaker 1: part of our yea, it wasn't a thing. You were
Speaker 1: just like, let's learn all the harmonies to this rent song.
Speaker 1: But um so Gean, you I want to talk about
Speaker 1: like raising young boys and talk about masculinity because you
Speaker 1: articulate in a way that it's so fascinating. I'm like
Speaker 1: anyway I've ever heard. But to start from the beginning,
Speaker 1: you grew up with men who were not your typical
Speaker 1: machismo is a macheesemo machismo. I think you say macheesmo. Okay,
Speaker 1: machismo masculine, like you know, blue Collary kind of guy,
Speaker 1: like that's my brother and my father were like that.
Speaker 1: So what if? So who did you grow up? Who
Speaker 1: are the men in your life? When you yeah, so,
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I get so. The situation does sort of,
Speaker 1: in hindsight, feel unique. Um My dad was a stay
Speaker 1: at home dad until I was about eight years old.
Speaker 1: Um My mom would go out to work obviously, um uh.
Speaker 1: And my dad also he's he's a chef, so the
Speaker 1: he's very artistic, and um, I think just the dynamic
Speaker 1: in my house was very different. Even when he was
Speaker 1: working as a chef, he would still come home early
Speaker 1: enough to get us from the bus and cook dinner
Speaker 1: so that when my mom got home from maybe the
Speaker 1: job that was perhaps, um just sort of the more
Speaker 1: I don't want to say stable, but sort of the
Speaker 1: more standard. Yeah, like, um, she would come home and
Speaker 1: dinner was made, the laundry was done, and the kids
Speaker 1: were the bath was had, and that was all my dreams,
Speaker 1: Mr Mom, Yeah, yeah, sort of and um, but it
Speaker 1: was never I think at the time that I was born,
Speaker 1: my parents were and as far as I'm concerned, very young.
Speaker 1: Not that young maybe for that time, but um. And
Speaker 1: so the idea that my dad was going to stay
Speaker 1: home with me, especially back in the eighties, was like
Speaker 1: a pretty wild situation that was that discussed sort of
Speaker 1: just like happen based on his career. It well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it was discussed. I think basically my mom
Speaker 1: and my dad, as they described it, they were both
Speaker 1: in a place where their careers were both sort of
Speaker 1: taking off, and so they kind of had to choose one.
Speaker 1: And um, my mom is a nutritionist and was sort
Speaker 1: of stepping foot i think in the realm of diabetes
Speaker 1: education and things like that, and so she it just
Speaker 1: felt like that was going to be really stable thing.
Speaker 1: The restaurant industry is notoriously um all over the place,
Speaker 1: and so I think that when the decision needed to
Speaker 1: get made, it was like, Okay, let's do this. And
Speaker 1: also at the time, I think, um, maybe not right
Speaker 1: after I was born, but my dad had done a
Speaker 1: lot of like part time catering stuff, I think, so
Speaker 1: he was able to kind of do a little bit
Speaker 1: of both. Yeah, yeah, okay, So your your dad was
Speaker 1: physically mostly in your life more so than your mom.
Speaker 1: He's a sweet, wonderful, just a sweet man. He is.
Speaker 1: He is. He's a really sweet guy. Um he he.
Speaker 1: I think his where he came from was less than
Speaker 1: ideal in the way of masculinity, but he he really
Speaker 1: tried his best to do things a little bit differently,
Speaker 1: I think, than than how he was raised. And your brother,
Speaker 1: you have a brother younger. I have a younger brother.
Speaker 1: He's also a sweetheart. He is. He's my best friend
Speaker 1: and he is, um also a chef, but he uh yeah.
Speaker 1: I think the way that we were raised was just
Speaker 1: in looking back and in growing up and meeting so
Speaker 1: many people, it feels very atypical. Um, just in the
Speaker 1: way that we were a foursome almost we sort of
Speaker 1: did everything, uh together. My parents were very open minded
Speaker 1: about my brother and I as sort of paths in life,
Speaker 1: and and there was not as many sort of UM
Speaker 1: expectations other than to like be a good person, which
Speaker 1: I think was sort of drilled home for better for worse.
Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, I look at the way my brother
Speaker 1: is raising his son, and he's just he's really They
Speaker 1: have matching top gun shirts. It's really cute, but he's
Speaker 1: really I mean, he's not doing this intentionally. I don't
Speaker 1: think he's just because this is what he loved as
Speaker 1: a kid. But he's just piling on dude stuff. I
Speaker 1: think that's really interesting. Yeah, and you were friends with
Speaker 1: a lot of your guys. It's funny we're talking about
Speaker 1: this the other night at your house. A lot of
Speaker 1: the guys that you were friends with in high school
Speaker 1: or guys that I wanted to be friends with, but
Speaker 1: I used my sexuality to try and be like, do
Speaker 1: you want to hang out with me? Yeah? You never did.
Speaker 1: You never had to do that, Like you didn't have
Speaker 1: men in your life that were ship heads. Really I didn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting, I mean, and I think as I sort
Speaker 1: of get more deeper into the study of all of this,
Speaker 1: like masculinity and what that looks like from a feminist perspective. Um,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of um, the relationships that I
Speaker 1: had early on, because what I've sort of discovered is
Speaker 1: that a lot of women end up operating from sort
Speaker 1: of a place of fear when it comes to men,
Speaker 1: and the way to assert their power or their control
Speaker 1: over or amongst that fear perhaps is dangling city through
Speaker 1: their sexuality. But I don't know. I don't have any
Speaker 1: real recollection of being afraid of men, and I didn't
Speaker 1: realize that so many women were until I got much older.
Speaker 1: And I think because I was never operating from a
Speaker 1: place of fear when it came to male friends or
Speaker 1: male companions or even boyfriends at that matter for that matter, UM,
Speaker 1: I just have been able to sustain these like really
Speaker 1: amazing long male friendships. When you say fear, are you
Speaker 1: specifically talking about like physical fear, emotional, mental, social fear,
Speaker 1: or all of the above. That's a really good question.
Speaker 1: I think I'm talking about I think I'm talking about
Speaker 1: all almost all of it, because I think that depending
Speaker 1: on the situation, UM, the in a sort of typical
Speaker 1: patriarchal structure, the man is at the top. The man
Speaker 1: is like the top of the hierarchy, and the way
Speaker 1: that he's going to assert his power control could be
Speaker 1: of any of those ways. Unfortunately, And um, I think
Speaker 1: when you even the most sort of like kind and
Speaker 1: gentle men, even if when they're still operating under that
Speaker 1: patriarchy or that sort of hierarchical idea, it can still
Speaker 1: come from a place of dominating power. Um. And I
Speaker 1: think maybe we see it more emotionally or but but
Speaker 1: physically it's definitely a thing too that I think a
Speaker 1: lot of women fear what is patriot What is your
Speaker 1: definition of patriarchy? So I guess when I think about
Speaker 1: the patriarchy, and I read this in a I believe
Speaker 1: it was a Carol Gilligan book, and um, she's talked
Speaker 1: about patriarchy being like the hierarchy, but in an apt
Speaker 1: without love, So hierarchy but without the ability to love
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, because I forgot remember you told me that,
Speaker 1: And I was like, fuck, I think that is dead on. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean I think it makes a lot of sense
Speaker 1: in the way that like, you know, we want to
Speaker 1: I think, you know, yeah, the not having love within
Speaker 1: that structure is going to just look a lot like
Speaker 1: power control, power dynamics everywhere, and it's I guess there's
Speaker 1: a yeah, there is there is a vulnerability to love,
Speaker 1: and I think that women tend to be more loving
Speaker 1: and oh yeah, like love is like pure vulnerability, and
Speaker 1: I think that's like part of the masculine problem and
Speaker 1: the patriarchy. And I always try and say that the
Speaker 1: patriarchy is not a gendered thing. And I think that's
Speaker 1: like super important to remember when you're talking about all this,
Speaker 1: because the patriarchy is is lots of women. I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I might think are I mean,
Speaker 1: I think there's a line. I don't have any anti
Speaker 1: patriarchy stuff, And maybe that's why I subconsciously I knew
Speaker 1: I was part of the problem. Yeah, I think I
Speaker 1: think a lot of us are. I think like capitalism
Speaker 1: is the patriarchy. Like I think a lot of us
Speaker 1: are just like wrapped up in it. Um. And I
Speaker 1: think that to spin that on its head and say
Speaker 1: we're going to radically down the patriarchy is like such
Speaker 1: an overarching statement because it lives everywhere. It lives in like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, it lives in the idea that we have
Speaker 1: to have a male president. Um. It lives in the
Speaker 1: idea that um, mom is mom has to be the
Speaker 1: one that stays home from work. You know, it lives
Speaker 1: in this in a lot of these like very old
Speaker 1: school ideas. What about on women's side, Like, um, we're
Speaker 1: talking about girl power? Yeah, the notion of girl power?
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I think you know. I am the president
Speaker 1: of want to Be Weak. Yes, the spice girls are
Speaker 1: word today. Let's be clear, untouchable. We're not talking about Actually,
Speaker 1: just a quote about my dad is like an expert
Speaker 1: in pop music and he's just the best. And the
Speaker 1: first CD he ever got me was the single of
Speaker 1: want to Be Spiceools. He said, Claire, this is gonna
Speaker 1: be a number one hit, I'm telling you. Six months
Speaker 1: later it was so he is. He also just um
Speaker 1: showed me the New Scissor album. Yeah, he's the best. Um.
Speaker 1: But anyway, girl power, how yeah? How is that feed
Speaker 1: into the patriarchal Well? I think that's an interesting thing
Speaker 1: because my whole sort of like rant on all of
Speaker 1: this ends up being that I don't necessarily think we
Speaker 1: need to be raising stronger girls. I think we need
Speaker 1: to be raising kinder men. And I think when you
Speaker 1: elicit the idea of girl power, it sort of puts
Speaker 1: these masculine values into women. Um, and My thought is
Speaker 1: that maybe we just get rid of those masculine values altogether,
Speaker 1: because maybe nobody needs to be on top, maybe nobody
Speaker 1: needs to be better than anyone else, you know. And
Speaker 1: so the notion of girl power can sometimes seem to
Speaker 1: me like a little bit um almost in the wrong direction,
Speaker 1: almost like instilling some of these patriarchal values in in women. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And also a lot of it is like I feel
Speaker 1: like it's like a faux power anyway, because like saying
Speaker 1: girl power does not actually make you more powerful, and
Speaker 1: so it's a much longer process. And I feel like
Speaker 1: girl power kind of hits at women this same way.
Speaker 1: So many things are marketed to us, and it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, we're gonna make this razor pink, and we're
Speaker 1: gonna make this girl power like an accessible fun phrase.
Speaker 1: But that's not really getting down to the root of it,
Speaker 1: which is also my same issue with feminism and the
Speaker 1: way it's being like rebranded right now. But it's kind
Speaker 1: of in a it's a very shallow totally, and I
Speaker 1: think part of why I even part of why my
Speaker 1: mind almost exploded when I discovered people like Bell Hooks
Speaker 1: and Carol Gilligan Um who are these women that have
Speaker 1: also shared these values. Is because when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: and I mean I say a kid, because I moved
Speaker 1: to New York to go to college when I was
Speaker 1: seventeen years old, and I was yeah, and I was like,
Speaker 1: with all these strong women, you know, just any girl
Speaker 1: who's moved to New York when they're seventeen is a
Speaker 1: So I was with, you know, and there was a
Speaker 1: lot of talk about feminism, and I was coming from
Speaker 1: a place of but like, all of this sounds so
Speaker 1: man hating to me, and I don't hate men. There's
Speaker 1: something that were thrown out there from other people that
Speaker 1: led you to believe that. Because I always thought patriarchy
Speaker 1: was when when people are protesting and they have signs
Speaker 1: and they say destroy the patriarchy. I always equated that
Speaker 1: to fuck men, not literally fucking them, but like you know,
Speaker 1: let down, and like that's not I don't that's not
Speaker 1: the should be. I think the message, obviously, I think
Speaker 1: it needs to be like empower men, empower men to
Speaker 1: like feel feel their feelings and to feel vulnerable and
Speaker 1: all of that. But I think when you talk about
Speaker 1: like my first ideals of feminism, I don't I can't
Speaker 1: cite a specific example of like something that someone said
Speaker 1: to me, But for a long time I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't hate men, don't I just and and for
Speaker 1: a long time, I think if someone was to ask me,
Speaker 1: are you a feminist, I don't know if I would
Speaker 1: have said yes, because I think that's a It's a
Speaker 1: really confusing thing, is when you're someone who's coming maybe
Speaker 1: from the first aspective that I'm coming from, and then
Speaker 1: her into your point of like the rebranding of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's something seems um it seems like we do need
Speaker 1: to go deeper with it. It seems like, and I've
Speaker 1: said this before, like I don't know, I just don't
Speaker 1: know how how empowered we do actually have to make
Speaker 1: women feel. I don't know if that's coming out right,
Speaker 1: in the sense that I just feel like all the
Speaker 1: women I know are so strong and I'm so capable
Speaker 1: and are so fearless. And I think that some of
Speaker 1: the work maybe could go to making men more aware
Speaker 1: of that and also less scared of that, because I
Speaker 1: think men and women are so much more similar than
Speaker 1: everybody else knows, but it's because we are raised so
Speaker 1: differently that we perceive men and women as from Mars
Speaker 1: and from Venus, and there's different types of I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we all know a very sensitive I know
Speaker 1: men much more sensitive than me. And I'm not a
Speaker 1: good example because I'm not super sensitive. But I also
Speaker 1: know men who are like, you know, an impenetrable wall. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's this reminds me of I was on a business panel,
Speaker 1: like entertainment business, and it was for like the comedy
Speaker 1: industry a while back, and it was a bunch of
Speaker 1: successful women, um, kind of giving feedback to people who
Speaker 1: are aspiring comedians or whatever it may be, and a
Speaker 1: lot of us were giving advice, and basically the advice
Speaker 1: was to succeed kind of act more like a traditional man.
Speaker 1: I actually I actually stand by that in today's society. Um,
Speaker 1: it's also what comes natural to me. So it's like,
Speaker 1: I am not I don't feel like I'm betraying my
Speaker 1: uh natural instincts in any way by acting in that manner.
Speaker 1: But I also realized, like, if we're going on gender
Speaker 1: as a spectrum, uh, I definitely, especially with business and
Speaker 1: leading a little more stereotypically male. But one woman on
Speaker 1: the board did kind of point out she's like the
Speaker 1: thing that I'm hearing in this room is that in
Speaker 1: order to succeed, we must kind of em you late, uh,
Speaker 1: what men are doing, and she's like, why don't we
Speaker 1: just learn how to succeed in our own way? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I thought that was an interesting point, even though
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily agree with it. I was I was like,
Speaker 1: that's good, some good food for thought. Every woman and
Speaker 1: man has their own levels of masculine and feminine too,
Speaker 1: because like we always say, we're like masculine chicks for
Speaker 1: for women. But I still don't feel very much like
Speaker 1: there has never been a time when I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe I was born with the wrong genital you kind
Speaker 1: of saying, right, I mean, yeah, I just feel like
Speaker 1: I feel very much like I am like a woman.
Speaker 1: I feel very heterosexual, and like now it's weird being
Speaker 1: around in this time because people are like, well, you're
Speaker 1: probably pretty gay, and I'm like, I'm not fair. If
Speaker 1: I'm allowing you to be wherever you are in the spectrum.
Speaker 1: You have to you have to accept what I feel
Speaker 1: and know thirty two years into living on the planet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think to like, to your point, I think
Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense in the way of,
Speaker 1: like I a lot of the times people will just
Speaker 1: sort of do patterns that felt comfortable to them in childhood.
Speaker 1: And so I'm coming from a place where my mom
Speaker 1: did get up and go to work every day, and
Speaker 1: not because she felt like she had to make money,
Speaker 1: but because she loves her career and she still gets
Speaker 1: up and goes to work every day. And yeah, and
Speaker 1: so it's like, I you're so I think that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, unfortunately that's the perspective and not unfortunately, but
Speaker 1: that's the perspective I'm coming at it from. And I
Speaker 1: think that's like can be sort of troubling in the
Speaker 1: way of like I'm like, no, I don't have to
Speaker 1: act like a managed act like my mom's. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's like, but yeah, of course that's the example you have,
Speaker 1: and so I'm lucky maybe that I had that example.
Speaker 1: But I also think there can be a way where
Speaker 1: we shift the focus from trying to you know, be
Speaker 1: like men or be so powerful, because I think that
Speaker 1: if we start when we start to equate um power
Speaker 1: and hierarchy, uh like in like that way, like without
Speaker 1: the love or without the vulnerability. I think, no matter
Speaker 1: who you are, even if you have like the best
Speaker 1: job in the world, you're going to feel disconnected and
Speaker 1: and not vulnerable with the people around you. And I
Speaker 1: think it makes a lot of sense why you were
Speaker 1: the word the phrase feminism was brought to your attention
Speaker 1: and you were like what because you never felt the
Speaker 1: need for you never felt unequal. Yeah, so you just were.
Speaker 1: And so to say it out loud is like it's
Speaker 1: really redundant, like when you sleep your eyes are closed. Yeah, no, ship,
Speaker 1: what do you Why do we need to say this
Speaker 1: kind of thing? Maybe yeah? Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely
Speaker 1: I think I think I do have, um a specific perspective,
Speaker 1: and that could be shifting some of my views obviously.
Speaker 1: And so what are ways like, um where you see
Speaker 1: or you've you've noticed that little boys and little girls
Speaker 1: veer into these stereotypical ways like you were mentioning earlier
Speaker 1: to me about how young boys are typically raised by
Speaker 1: their mom is the parents, that's the one in their life,
Speaker 1: and so then they quite masculinity as Oh, I'm different
Speaker 1: from you because you're my main parents. Yeah, yeah, sort of.
Speaker 1: I think that. I think that when you really get
Speaker 1: down to a lot of this stuff and you can
Speaker 1: talk about it, with like these big words and stuff.
Speaker 1: But if you really get down to it, I think
Speaker 1: what happens a lot is that we're born, and you know,
Speaker 1: we have these like big personalities, whether you want to,
Speaker 1: um say nature and nurture. Sometimes I think that argument
Speaker 1: is like futile based on people that are influenced by
Speaker 1: other people and people that are not, you know, and
Speaker 1: that's sort of like you just kind of come out
Speaker 1: and you're going to either be influenced by people or
Speaker 1: you all. So, um, that's true. I'm very easily, I'm
Speaker 1: very naive and like that is just how I am.
Speaker 1: So I fall into that all the time. Like Karin
Speaker 1: is just not like that at all, So she just
Speaker 1: goes her own path. Right, So are you more nature?
Speaker 1: Is Karin morerture or vice versa? Like no, like anyway.
Speaker 1: But but that being said, I think, um, most of
Speaker 1: the time a boy has like a mom or like
Speaker 1: a female as their caregiver. And so as they grow
Speaker 1: up in those first five years when the brain is
Speaker 1: changing shape the most that I ever will, they're starting
Speaker 1: the seeds are being planted, and they're starting to equate
Speaker 1: maturing or maturation with being different than the thing that
Speaker 1: is teaching them. And so when you start to equate
Speaker 1: growing up and becoming a boy and then becoming a
Speaker 1: man with being different and being isolated and being alone,
Speaker 1: that's what masculinity turns into. And so you start to like,
Speaker 1: so people that are the masculinity, is this this isolation,
Speaker 1: it's being on, it's being better than, it's being stronger than,
Speaker 1: it's being more powerful. Then is there a way to
Speaker 1: flip that? Though? Like, if you're like, say you're like
Speaker 1: a single mom with no U, with no male in
Speaker 1: the household, is there a way to flip that or
Speaker 1: to say we are the same well raising someone, It
Speaker 1: seems like you could you could flip it a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that you can. I think Um another thing
Speaker 1: um Bell Hooks talks a lot about this in her
Speaker 1: book in terms of the mother son relationship. I think, uh,
Speaker 1: which is fascinating usually real it's yeah, yeah, And I
Speaker 1: would say I would probably argue that father daughter is
Speaker 1: probably just the same and daughter can. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: all weird, but yes, mother's son, my mother son mother
Speaker 1: like mother son affects relationships into life in a way
Speaker 1: that I don't think daddy daughter does. Like even if
Speaker 1: it's a weird relationship that usually doesn't come into romantic
Speaker 1: relationships end except I mean like there's like things like
Speaker 1: daddy issues in that you need the love and attention
Speaker 1: of men. I think that's where it comes in. But
Speaker 1: I feel like so often in relationships, like there are
Speaker 1: times when I'm like, am I fighting your mom for
Speaker 1: like the role of women in your life? Because I'm
Speaker 1: not going to have that fight for you. Like that's
Speaker 1: probably what you're saying. I think directly correlates. They just
Speaker 1: totally so I think, um, what can happen a lot?
Speaker 1: And like I said, Bell Hooks mentions this and in
Speaker 1: her book The Will to Change, which I was so amazing,
Speaker 1: but um, she mentions that a lot of the times
Speaker 1: what's happening in those relationships is that the female because
Speaker 1: she doesn't feel comfortable asserting her power over the main
Speaker 1: on more life, even if you're a single mother or
Speaker 1: you know, in some capacity, she's not asserting the power
Speaker 1: that she wants. And this could be because she has
Speaker 1: a she doesn't her boss at work is really rude
Speaker 1: to her, or you know, like she has a crappy doorman.
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's like all sorts of ways that
Speaker 1: we're not asserting our power over men, you know, and
Speaker 1: so maybe she's not asserting her power. And then often
Speaker 1: what we'll do all humans is will take that out
Speaker 1: on people that are just a little bit weaker than us.
Speaker 1: And so what happens a lot to women is that
Speaker 1: they can actually be taking out a lot of their
Speaker 1: frustrations with the men in their life on their sons.
Speaker 1: And um, I think, yeah, And I think that a lot, right,
Speaker 1: And then I think a lot of sons, um grow
Speaker 1: up and they're mindful because because that's the person who
Speaker 1: raised you, right, And then not only you know, if
Speaker 1: you're the mom was a primary parent in your life,
Speaker 1: not only are you associating like growing up into a
Speaker 1: man is being oh, I'm different from this woman who
Speaker 1: raised me. But then on top of like the great things,
Speaker 1: she also is like kind of country to me because
Speaker 1: X y Z. Yeah, and it's so subconscious. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's like it comes from a place of just not
Speaker 1: deciding to do the work or break the patterns that
Speaker 1: we have, you know, and like with that kind of stuff, Um,
Speaker 1: is that more common though, because I feel like the
Speaker 1: relationships I see are more like the little boy being
Speaker 1: coddled and the girl kind of being given. I mean,
Speaker 1: I definitely know my mom was easier on than my brother.
Speaker 1: He's also I think she was just tired because he's
Speaker 1: a second kid, so they're always more lax on it.
Speaker 1: But I just I definitely feel like, uh, yeah, So
Speaker 1: I think what kind of can happen is that in
Speaker 1: that first bit of time there maybe is like a
Speaker 1: displaced frustration that's happening. And then at a certain point, um,
Speaker 1: it switches because the mom may often realize that she
Speaker 1: has now pushed her son into this masculine world that
Speaker 1: maybe isn't the best or maybe isn't what she wants,
Speaker 1: and then perhaps there's some guilt there. And I think
Speaker 1: that that can happen too. And I think ultimately, um,
Speaker 1: more so than maybe any of these points, Uh, women
Speaker 1: are really subservient to men. And if that man is
Speaker 1: your two year old son, maybe that's what that it
Speaker 1: looks like, you know, if that man is your you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, your hitty doorman. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: like I think that I think that can happen. I
Speaker 1: think that can happen. And what about the concept which
Speaker 1: I think, God, I I don't know how he changes.
Speaker 1: But the idea that men are valued for what they do, yeah, yeah, always,
Speaker 1: and women are valued for who they are slash how
Speaker 1: they look. Yeah no, that's a big one. I think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: men are their value. Men are often valued for what
Speaker 1: they do. Women are valued for who they are, and
Speaker 1: I can you see it all the time? Do you
Speaker 1: mean like doing a band for pussy? I mean that's
Speaker 1: the prime example. What is who they are? I mean
Speaker 1: what is because I'm like, obviously I know what they
Speaker 1: look like that's a huge thing. But what do you
Speaker 1: mean who they are? I guess like I mean, like, um,
Speaker 1: when when women get chastised for not using enough exclamation points,
Speaker 1: Oh they weren't very nice in email? Yea for their
Speaker 1: demeanor exactly. That's a good one. And I think that
Speaker 1: women are often valued like for who they are, and
Speaker 1: that's why we do you know what I mean, like
Speaker 1: how often I'm gonna be people pleasing and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have cleavage. But men are so valued for what they do.
Speaker 1: So then if you have someone who a man who
Speaker 1: doesn't have a job because of whatever reason, and he's
Speaker 1: not making the most money for his family, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of detrimental behaviors that can come from that, because
Speaker 1: he ultimately feels he's not being valued in the larger world. Man,
Speaker 1: I was on Hinge just dating app, and I was
Speaker 1: on the train with Melissa and there's this hot the
Speaker 1: hottest guy, hottest, hottest, hottest guy. Was like, holy shit,
Speaker 1: how is he single? And he fucking said he worked
Speaker 1: at Trader Joe's. And I was like, Nope, that's why.
Speaker 1: That's that's a kind of person I would that I
Speaker 1: always find someone hot with something wrong with them in that,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to see there's anything wrong
Speaker 1: with working at Trader Joe's, but at a certain point there, right,
Speaker 1: But also like I value men for what they do certainly,
Speaker 1: And that's why you see a lot of hot chicks dating, like,
Speaker 1: you know, because with the finance job. And I think
Speaker 1: it's another way of saying that too, is that we
Speaker 1: judge them. So we judge men for what they do,
Speaker 1: we judge women for who they are, you know, like
Speaker 1: we're not like there's so many women that are like
Speaker 1: being amazing and being like doing all these incredible things,
Speaker 1: and we're sort of just always more concerned with like
Speaker 1: how is there but were they nice to you. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm always surprised when hot chick is smart. I'm always
Speaker 1: surprised when a hot chick is smart. Yeah, always, And
Speaker 1: that makes me like, come on, Christina, really yeah but
Speaker 1: always and and aren't we all sort of surprised when
Speaker 1: guys are nice, like guys with really good jobs are nice.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, I'm turned off, but yeah, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: that patriarch, I don't know that. I know that I'm
Speaker 1: a part of it. I'm definitely, I'm definitely on board. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, that's just yeah, that's the whole concept,
Speaker 1: it feels, Yeah, and just the way young boys, So
Speaker 1: how do we raise young boys then if if, if
Speaker 1: the focus should be on that, which I agree, that's
Speaker 1: really how you're going to get to the root of
Speaker 1: the issue. And it's why you know, we talk about
Speaker 1: control and anger stems from fear. What did you say,
Speaker 1: anger is the blanket over fear and powerlessness. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was like, yeah, like, damn girl, that's a good quote. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a um, that's a something. I think I heard
Speaker 1: that from Laura Market. I'm just trying to credit everyone
Speaker 1: that I hear these things really it's important. She's amazing.
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I think that that overall can really
Speaker 1: uh because what can happen? I think a lot. And
Speaker 1: this happens with boys and girls. And that's why I'm saying, Um,
Speaker 1: it's not just a male thing. It's not necessarily just
Speaker 1: a boy thing. Um, but there can be this um
Speaker 1: sheen of anger over the idea of like being able
Speaker 1: to control your environment or being able to assert your power.
Speaker 1: And ultimately, I think that that's always sort of a
Speaker 1: blanket over the fear and powerlessness that uh we feel.
Speaker 1: And so what is it? Where is the fear and
Speaker 1: powerlessness stem from just childhood trauma, parents fighting, Like because
Speaker 1: we all have we're all afraid, we're all And it
Speaker 1: was so interesting that the last week on the podcast,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to talk about, you know, my deep
Speaker 1: dark depression that I was experiencing at the time because
Speaker 1: I couldn't you know, it was just encompassing me, engulfing me,
Speaker 1: and um, and I got so many emails from dudes
Speaker 1: that like they got a divorce or their they just
Speaker 1: broke up with their girlfriend or why or whatever, and
Speaker 1: uh and and they were like, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for you know, articulating what I couldn't really articulate. And
Speaker 1: then the emails I got from women were like, it
Speaker 1: was just so nice to hear I'm not the only one,
Speaker 1: but with the men, they were all like I couldn't
Speaker 1: put words to these feelings. I'm like, that's exactly what
Speaker 1: Jane talks about. Statistically, also, um, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: I this is research I think I found when writing
Speaker 1: our book, but I don't know if it actually made
Speaker 1: it into the book or not. But uh, men, uh,
Speaker 1: statistically take longer to get over a breakup than women.
Speaker 1: Oh that you did. I think that is in the
Speaker 1: book because yeah, and so yeah, because it was kind
Speaker 1: of like processing grief and stuff. And I think a
Speaker 1: lot of times women are considered to be more sensitive,
Speaker 1: but I think that's like in areas of like compassion
Speaker 1: if you see like a you know, a bird with
Speaker 1: its wing clipped or something on the street. But as
Speaker 1: far as we also do have a power to like
Speaker 1: walk away from relationships a little bit cold in a
Speaker 1: way that men kind of get attached. I feel like
Speaker 1: the way a lot of relationships I see start is
Speaker 1: kind of like the woman is like going after the man,
Speaker 1: but then the man ends up more invested in the
Speaker 1: relationship or like dependent on the relationship or a relationship
Speaker 1: like any relationship. Yeah, I mean, like like even if
Speaker 1: it's not that one with you necessarily. Yeah no, But
Speaker 1: I think a lot of that has to do with
Speaker 1: the idea that some of the growth that men might
Speaker 1: feel is that it's stunted. So they can't be invested
Speaker 1: in the relationship fully because they can't be fully vulnerable,
Speaker 1: And so they're going to cling to a new relationship
Speaker 1: or they're going to get indeed really quickly and stay
Speaker 1: in there for a really really long time because they
Speaker 1: haven't necessarily been giving the coping mechanisms for that. Because
Speaker 1: we don't always teach boys to be as vulnerable as
Speaker 1: we're teaching young girls. Yeah, what are ways that you
Speaker 1: you've witnessed or read about that we shun a young
Speaker 1: boys um uh knee jerk reaction to be vulnerable or
Speaker 1: how or how do we make them afraid to be
Speaker 1: vulnerable on accident? Really, I think a lot of this happens. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think any of I mean, like the
Speaker 1: really like sort of classic examples feel very like be
Speaker 1: a man, boys don't cross. I hear that all of
Speaker 1: those things my nephew all the time, and I hear
Speaker 1: it all the time. Yeah, yeah, And I think like
Speaker 1: any of those sort of like old adages like are
Speaker 1: just shunning away from that vulnerability even more and then
Speaker 1: eventually that that vulnerability is fear, That vulnerability is powerless
Speaker 1: and is love, It is all of those things. But
Speaker 1: if there's just going to be this like sheen of
Speaker 1: anger over all of that because they're not willing to
Speaker 1: go into that stuff or they're not really to kind
Speaker 1: of go deep into it because they can't because they
Speaker 1: weren't given those skills tools, what do we expect, you know,
Speaker 1: like how do we expect them to be completely whole
Speaker 1: in a relationship or completely sustaining um as a friend
Speaker 1: or something like that? With the crying things, So not
Speaker 1: because you are an early childhood educator, is there because
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I I hate that boys aren't
Speaker 1: allowed to cry, but I also think that sometimes girls
Speaker 1: are too allowed to cry, Like there is a certain
Speaker 1: point when like just stop crying and find another way
Speaker 1: to know. I think there's a middle ground there because
Speaker 1: they also I also don't think it's good to raise uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a generation of kids where everyone's fucking like
Speaker 1: crying in the office and stuff. That's you know, but
Speaker 1: you have to know socially when it. I mean, but
Speaker 1: when when you cry? Is that is that in you
Speaker 1: and that's how you're getting it out? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Can I just say. I can't say I feel like crying,
Speaker 1: or I can't say, like, you know what, I want
Speaker 1: to cry and then just cry. I have to have
Speaker 1: it welling up inside me, right. But I think there
Speaker 1: also needs to be some kind of social not like
Speaker 1: Dan Savage talks a lot about, like, uh, you, part
Speaker 1: of getting in a relationship is like so knowing having
Speaker 1: the wherewithal to understand that even if you feel very
Speaker 1: strongly about someone early that you do not let them
Speaker 1: know all of it just because it's scary. So I
Speaker 1: think the same thing can be with crying, where it's like, yes,
Speaker 1: even if you feel like crying, you can socially understand
Speaker 1: that maybe I need to step away to the bathroom
Speaker 1: right now, not cry in the middle of this conference call.
Speaker 1: Totally yeah, I think I think you're There's two really
Speaker 1: cool points that I feel like I can bring up.
Speaker 1: One is to the idea that a lot of the
Speaker 1: times um when people that feel a little bit stunted
Speaker 1: in their vulnerability or sort of blocked in their vulnerability
Speaker 1: start to cry, they're not really crying about the situation.
Speaker 1: They're crying about fourteen other things they didn't cry about yet.
Speaker 1: Um So when the crying feels very um overwhelming or
Speaker 1: loud or um I love you or like you like
Speaker 1: sort of like just when it when it seems that large,
Speaker 1: I think it is almost always about other things. So
Speaker 1: I think I would um sort of parade into the
Speaker 1: idea that we should just be crying like every day
Speaker 1: a little bit, so that like what I mean in private,
Speaker 1: I do no no fully like okay, today I so
Speaker 1: I I uh um, I have like you know, I
Speaker 1: was leaving my apartment today, I was feeling a little
Speaker 1: bit overwhelmed, and I like closed my door. I locked it.
Speaker 1: A few tears well that I let them happen. I
Speaker 1: walked to work and it was fine. The same thing
Speaker 1: happened to me yesterday. So like, honestly, if and if
Speaker 1: I had just said like get yourself together, Claire, like
Speaker 1: come on, we gotta go, I could resisting it tonight
Speaker 1: and then have a crazy huge emotion. So I think
Speaker 1: there's something to that, but I also think there's something
Speaker 1: to the idea of teaching resilience. And the only way
Speaker 1: you get to resilience is by feeling vulnerable, because you
Speaker 1: can't be resilient to a big feeling until you have
Speaker 1: the big feeling. And so I think that in order
Speaker 1: to bounce back from mit, you have to be in
Speaker 1: the care of someone that is not as scared of
Speaker 1: your big feelings. UM is willing to sit with you
Speaker 1: while you have those big feelings, but then it's also
Speaker 1: willing to explain to you that you know, once that's over,
Speaker 1: and this is very like early childhood, you know, once
Speaker 1: that's over, I still love you, I still care about you.
Speaker 1: I wasn't scared when you were doing that, and now
Speaker 1: now here's how we can feel better after that. That's
Speaker 1: an interesting point of the adult isn't doesn't show any
Speaker 1: signs of being terrified of a child's big emotions because
Speaker 1: the second a kid feels that, which is always subconsciously
Speaker 1: because we don't have that kind of vocabulary. Yet the
Speaker 1: second you feel that you go, oh, I gotta put
Speaker 1: this pushes down totally. And if they if they're a mess,
Speaker 1: it's like you know, everybody who had to be the
Speaker 1: parent to their parent growing up is a specific type
Speaker 1: of fun up person. I am one of them. It
Speaker 1: does create this resilience, but it's because I used, uh,
Speaker 1: I used and didn't use certain emotions because they were
Speaker 1: to me there were weapons. Yeah. Well, it's also like
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's like if we've all seen
Speaker 1: like a kid fall and cry right ular amount, and
Speaker 1: then depending on how the parent reacts to that injury,
Speaker 1: like like I've seen some like a panicked mom go
Speaker 1: over and then the panic that the mom has makes
Speaker 1: the kid cry harder because they're not actually crying because
Speaker 1: of the physical pain that was your initial cry was
Speaker 1: at the level that that you know, say, this is
Speaker 1: how much this hurts. But then the panic causes fear,
Speaker 1: which makes the kid more scared. It makes them cry more. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think that's right, like the panic of of
Speaker 1: somebody who's sort of and like, you know, we all
Speaker 1: as adults have to have our feelings too, But there
Speaker 1: is something to be said for holding the space for
Speaker 1: your young child to figure. You have to, you have
Speaker 1: to seem like you're in control. There's nothing worse than
Speaker 1: being around an adult as a child who seems out
Speaker 1: of control. I mean, have you ever gone? I used
Speaker 1: to go, I've been. I remember times like being over
Speaker 1: someone's house whose parent was just like not in control.
Speaker 1: And like I'm coming from advice because I came from
Speaker 1: a very controlled household, but also like, if you're fucking
Speaker 1: out of control, don't invite neighbor, could a kid? Don't
Speaker 1: Stephanie because while you're going through a divorce, because I can't,
Speaker 1: that's not I would go home and be and I
Speaker 1: would just like give my mom a list of people.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't want to go over her house
Speaker 1: and because I can't be around it's too much. But
Speaker 1: I think that's like to to so a few points too,
Speaker 1: is like the idea that right, we have to be
Speaker 1: able to like understand that kids can have big feelings
Speaker 1: and that's okay. But also the resilience thing, which I
Speaker 1: think I don't know. I think in our generation some
Speaker 1: of that got lost. I think that's the whole thing
Speaker 1: with like giving everyone a trophy. I think that's it's
Speaker 1: because we didn't learn to lose. We didn't, and so
Speaker 1: we're not gonna be resilient. And so one of the
Speaker 1: crying face emoji and a nutsge never lose really, So
Speaker 1: I got one more email, like I didn't get a
Speaker 1: ticket and this is this is my holocaust. Yeah well yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I had a thought and then it just but but
Speaker 1: aside from all of that, um, if we are scared
Speaker 1: of our young boys having just as many feelings as
Speaker 1: are young girls, we are going to be sent sen
Speaker 1: dain some pretty strange messages. Yeah, this is the metaphor
Speaker 1: that I was going to bring up the piano, that
Speaker 1: this piano like having a piano. I see it all
Speaker 1: the times. It's behind my couch and I'm learning all
Speaker 1: these songs. And you know, when I have like took
Speaker 1: out the Ben Folds five music book and I was
Speaker 1: trying to learn this song, you have to funk up
Speaker 1: and press the wrong keys and funk up the rhythm
Speaker 1: hundreds of times. You have to. That is a building
Speaker 1: block of learning and memorizing this song and playing it well.
Speaker 1: All those little mess ups are are so it's I
Speaker 1: can't see them as anything else other than necessary. I
Speaker 1: mean you, just because I've been recently like learning sheet
Speaker 1: music and memorizing songs lately, I'm like, oh, these these
Speaker 1: little mistakes that I'm making. It's not something to beat
Speaker 1: myself up over. It's it's necessary. And I wish I'm
Speaker 1: trying to look at life like that. It's like all
Speaker 1: these funk ups and all these things you need to
Speaker 1: learn to deal with the breakup, Like I never learned
Speaker 1: to deal with anything. Yeah, yeah, and I think right, like,
Speaker 1: but you are well I am now. And what if
Speaker 1: you just never ever ever did you know, like and
Speaker 1: not just resiliency, but what if you were taught like
Speaker 1: you don't even get to be sad about that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's where I think a lot of men who um,
Speaker 1: and I know women can be abusive too, and that's
Speaker 1: why all of these things they don't When I say
Speaker 1: a lot of men, it's a women do this too.
Speaker 1: And because everybody has their own love, oh yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a compement. But when men respond with violence, or men
Speaker 1: are violent towards their their wives and their partners, it's
Speaker 1: I so see, it almost doesn't even make me mad
Speaker 1: because I'm like, I just feel so sad because there
Speaker 1: was a time when you were a young boy that
Speaker 1: no one allowed you to feel feelings, and you know
Speaker 1: that's so tragic. Yeah. Also, you're just made me a
Speaker 1: trash person and that's you. And I love that I
Speaker 1: know and I love that you guys are both here
Speaker 1: because you sound so much like what I talked to
Speaker 1: my therapist about in the sense of like like I
Speaker 1: do have all this compassion, Like I have so much compassion.
Speaker 1: This is clearly what I spend many hours of my
Speaker 1: day doing, like not many hours of my day, but
Speaker 1: a lot of hours of my life. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: learning about males vulnerability. But then there's this other side
Speaker 1: where it's like, yeah, but it can't be an excuse.
Speaker 1: It has to be And I think that that's the caveat,
Speaker 1: is that like, sure, um, we can we That's why
Speaker 1: sort of it needs to start at early childhood because
Speaker 1: if we can push and we can um, really help
Speaker 1: our young our young children, all of them to feel
Speaker 1: all of these feelings, then when we get older, maybe
Speaker 1: we won't have some other other bigger issues. Because at
Speaker 1: this point, if you are a man and you are
Speaker 1: asserting your power and really violent ways, be it emotionally, physically, um, sexually, um,
Speaker 1: there's no excuse for that. And I think that took
Speaker 1: me a long time to get to you, honestly, because
Speaker 1: I was just sort of like making up all of
Speaker 1: these theories in my head, and I think I want
Speaker 1: to make sure that that's really loud and clear that
Speaker 1: like that's work that they have to do. No person
Speaker 1: on the other end of that is responsible for that,
Speaker 1: or um in any way needs to make that an excuse. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about how understand You know, none of
Speaker 1: these points that we're talking about in all the books
Speaker 1: that you've read, they're not excuses. They're just knowledge. So
Speaker 1: you could take that knowledge and have understanding and then
Speaker 1: go from there. But accountability is so important. But you know,
Speaker 1: your your very first for a romantic relationship was seemed
Speaker 1: like a dream. It seemed wonderful. It was just so sweet.
Speaker 1: It was just like such a sweet, gentle great um young,
Speaker 1: like eighteen, like just in high school and college, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And it was just like a
Speaker 1: person who I had known really well. And yeah, it
Speaker 1: was nice. It's nice and um, and you were in
Speaker 1: a relationship though at one point in your life after
Speaker 1: that where the guy wasn't that wasn't the type of
Speaker 1: man that you grew up with basically a sweet, kind, vulnerable,
Speaker 1: caring person. And so it's it's interesting I'm curious about
Speaker 1: your whatever. Another word for journey is between learning these
Speaker 1: things and actually applying them to your life and how
Speaker 1: you act with a man who uses fear tactics, uses manipulation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of Um, I think a lot
Speaker 1: of the curiosity stemmed from that relationship, quite honestly, because um, Karin,
Speaker 1: as you say, like it's like, you know, you see
Speaker 1: some crazy stuff out there and it's just like, okay,
Speaker 1: like what's going on here? Um? But I think ultimately, UM,
Speaker 1: I did have to come to a place where it
Speaker 1: couldn't be an excuse anymore, and I did have to
Speaker 1: recognize that I was I was being like there were
Speaker 1: power dynamics at play and me a really long time
Speaker 1: takes a second to really right because I wasn't privy
Speaker 1: to it in any way. You love someone, you're also
Speaker 1: blinded by it. You know. It's like I I see,
Speaker 1: I feel like I can see right through almost anyone
Speaker 1: unless I'm dating them, right, that's the person. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: that's the person that you're gonna give them mostly wi
Speaker 1: leeway too, and like you know, or my dog, But
Speaker 1: I mean I don't think he's really you know, it's okay, right, right, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that like, and again I've said this to Christina,
Speaker 1: but like I don't want to. I try not just
Speaker 1: spend too much time, you know, psychoanalyzing other people, because
Speaker 1: it always is a distraction from working on yourself. But
Speaker 1: but I do feel like um, in that specific relationship
Speaker 1: that you're talking about, Christina, there I think there was
Speaker 1: an element of perhaps um frustration that I wasn't afraid
Speaker 1: of him, yeah, and he didn't like that you weren't
Speaker 1: afraid of it. And I don't know I have I
Speaker 1: have wondered that about a lot of men that I've met.
Speaker 1: Even when you meet a man, even not in a
Speaker 1: some whether you're at a bar with a bunch of
Speaker 1: girlfriends and comes up to you, or if you just
Speaker 1: just in anywhere, when you meet a man, sometimes I've
Speaker 1: felt as though they are mad that I'm not afraid
Speaker 1: of them, and I've never really When you said that,
Speaker 1: I was like, that's the feeling that I've felt with
Speaker 1: with some men and some women, mostly men. But uh,
Speaker 1: I think that's so interesting and that obviously stems from
Speaker 1: I mean fear on their part. Well basically the yeah,
Speaker 1: the way to get to get through to almost any bully.
Speaker 1: And why in my life I've really can honestly say
Speaker 1: I pretty much never been bullied is because if you
Speaker 1: immediately let the bully know, hey, this bullshit is not
Speaker 1: gonna work on me to the point where you're like, hey,
Speaker 1: punch me in the face if you want to, because
Speaker 1: I know you're not gonna because you're a pussy. So
Speaker 1: if you let that be known kind of immediately, but
Speaker 1: you gotta nip it in the butt immediately. And I've
Speaker 1: had a couple of set the president. Yeah, because I've
Speaker 1: had like a boss who definitely was like very pissed
Speaker 1: that I wasn't afraid of him, but like I worked
Speaker 1: at that place for many, many years. I feel like
Speaker 1: you have you gotten that a lot? And are men
Speaker 1: specifically aren't. Yeah, And then a lot of things I'll
Speaker 1: try to do is they'll try to manipulate me by
Speaker 1: letting me know that because of my behavior, they are
Speaker 1: not sexually attracted to me. Although I am, they will
Speaker 1: see this thing like, although I am esthetically pleasing, if
Speaker 1: if I was just more palatable in my personality, that
Speaker 1: they would be attracted to me, as if them wanting
Speaker 1: to fuck me is some gift there giving me and
Speaker 1: in some way gives me more value. And I'm like, bitch,
Speaker 1: I've seen through anyway. But it's like, I mean, like
Speaker 1: anyone who's watched one episode of The Pickup Artist knows
Speaker 1: all of this. I mean I knew it before, but
Speaker 1: I mean, like that show it should be recommended viewing
Speaker 1: for any woman. I know is a show for men.
Speaker 1: It should every woman should go veach want the Pickup Artist.
Speaker 1: You can learn so much from mystery fucking douchebag who's
Speaker 1: walking around like the mad Hatter. But he gives away
Speaker 1: all these secrets that people who don't really have any depth,
Speaker 1: mostly targeted towards men, will use UH to manipulate women
Speaker 1: in a social setting. And he's like, it was great,
Speaker 1: that's definitely, but I don't like you're giving me all
Speaker 1: the secrets this is And I wonder too, like in
Speaker 1: the event that you're in in these relationship to these
Speaker 1: people and you're sort of like, Okay, I'm not afraid
Speaker 1: of you. And this is this is that people as
Speaker 1: a way to get out of vulnerable situation, they want
Speaker 1: to be afraid, they want to be feared, and so
Speaker 1: like to get out of that vulnerable situation. They just
Speaker 1: want to be someone that's like on top, like I said,
Speaker 1: equating masculinity with isolation and being better than being stronger
Speaker 1: than being more powerful. Then I if that's why guys
Speaker 1: do the nagging thing. I never heard of that word
Speaker 1: until you said it correct and I was like, what
Speaker 1: is that because it's just saying yea like a guy
Speaker 1: would insult you to get you to like them. Ever since,
Speaker 1: you define that word and I heard it. Every time
Speaker 1: I see it, I see it when guys do it
Speaker 1: like people try all that time. Yeah, and I see
Speaker 1: it all the time with men and you specifically, So like,
Speaker 1: the way you use nagging is really you have to.
Speaker 1: It's usually uh, you can use nagging and when once
Speaker 1: you're in a romantic relationship to manipulate someone, but usually
Speaker 1: primarily it's used in groups thing where there's multiple people.
Speaker 1: So basically, if I was trying to hit on you,
Speaker 1: I would, but Christina was also with you, I would
Speaker 1: say something rude about you, be like, oh, is that
Speaker 1: what you chose to wear, and then compliment Christina, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, your hair looks great. But really, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to date Christina. I'm trying to date you, but
Speaker 1: I just know. But in my head, I think maybe
Speaker 1: perhaps you are just like you have a stronger, more
Speaker 1: hard to penetrate personality, so that I need to knock
Speaker 1: you down so that you're at a level I can handle. Well. Yes,
Speaker 1: and you so you need to make someone afraid of
Speaker 1: you so that you can be more powerful. I guess
Speaker 1: men make not anymore. But I would get that a lot,
Speaker 1: and I never knew it was never knew it was happening,
Speaker 1: and I was like, why are you being so mean?
Speaker 1: And then they got me. Yeah I'm not. I don't
Speaker 1: want to them, but I'm in the conversation now. That's right,
Speaker 1: because it's a good tactic to use on either people
Speaker 1: with a really tough personality or people who are really
Speaker 1: hot to um because it's like, that's how you can
Speaker 1: get someone out of your league. That's true because people
Speaker 1: who are hot, really hot, are so often talk to
Speaker 1: you in such a like a like a like a
Speaker 1: goddess number when I so crazy, Guys, you're blowing my
Speaker 1: dud the pick up artist. I'm obsessed with him. I
Speaker 1: did this tactics a little Dickie. He's a rapper at
Speaker 1: a party. His name is a Little Dickie and Karin
Speaker 1: I didn't know about him. Karinn loves him and was
Speaker 1: and he was at this party we were at and
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm gonna try and get him on
Speaker 1: the podcast because Karin was like, I really want to
Speaker 1: talk to him, and I was like, she's like, I
Speaker 1: don't know what to stand. Like, I got this and
Speaker 1: I go up in the line behind the bathroom. I'm like, hey,
Speaker 1: are you comic? No, No, I'm a rapper. I'm like,
Speaker 1: you're He's like a short, little white guy and so
Speaker 1: and then I go, really a rapper, what's your rap name?
Speaker 1: Little Dickie? Little Dickie? Is your rap name? Wow? And
Speaker 1: he's like, what do you do. I'm a comedian of
Speaker 1: a podcast called Guys We Fun. I would love to
Speaker 1: come on it, he offered. And I even have to ask,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, God, damn it. That so it's not
Speaker 1: it's not something you can only use on women. No, No, Well,
Speaker 1: and I guess that's like sort of my like that's like,
Speaker 1: you know, the point power play though of a lot
Speaker 1: of this stuff is that, like, you know, it isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily just towards men, but I think, you know, like
Speaker 1: women Um, women are just so so strong and and
Speaker 1: and to feel like we need to be controlled or
Speaker 1: that like that has to be part of our narrative.
Speaker 1: It's just so frustrating And it just like frustrates me
Speaker 1: so much because I know so many women who have
Speaker 1: just risen up out of out of situations and occasions
Speaker 1: that no one taught them how to be strong and resilient.
Speaker 1: They just had a force. And those are the women
Speaker 1: who had it in them all along. And then in
Speaker 1: the same way, it's like the men who rise up
Speaker 1: out of these terrible situations that resilience wasn't taught to you.
Speaker 1: That's nature. Well, and I know, yeah, and I know
Speaker 1: a lot of men who are like great and like
Speaker 1: can handle their feelings and know how to like have
Speaker 1: a vulnerable conversation with you and know how to be
Speaker 1: there with you when you're having a vulnerable moment, you know.
Speaker 1: And so I think, like it is possible. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a totally possible thing when when you go out
Speaker 1: on dates because I'm actually I'm going out on a date, um,
Speaker 1: just because I want to try it out. It's like
Speaker 1: learning how to ride a bike, Like I just want to,
Speaker 1: like figure out how to Is there a way that
Speaker 1: you can go out on a date with a person
Speaker 1: and get vulnerable without you know, it's like the opposite
Speaker 1: of nagging, but for vulnerability. You know, well, I always
Speaker 1: end up talking about vulnerability and a little boy isn't
Speaker 1: really shuts like the whole scene down and they're like, wait.
Speaker 1: I'm always like, I'm sure your mom did a great
Speaker 1: job with you. No, I know exactly, Um I no,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean I don't know, like I think
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I'm curious, like how you did you've
Speaker 1: gone on dates? Are there ways that you kind of
Speaker 1: see like where will this person let me go? I
Speaker 1: mean first day obviously you don't know anything about each other.
Speaker 1: But you know, I always ask what do you do
Speaker 1: for a living? Not because well the trader Joe's thing,
Speaker 1: I guess is I do care, But I'm just like, oh,
Speaker 1: what are you curious? Im passionate about? Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: what I do a lot. I'll ask about their friends
Speaker 1: because I think that men that have friends is actually
Speaker 1: very telling. Yeah, because it's hard because having friends is
Speaker 1: vulnerable and having friends is difficult, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that you need to have like a thousand friends I
Speaker 1: definitely don't have a thousand friends, but the friends that
Speaker 1: I do have. But the friends that I do have
Speaker 1: are very intimate and and it's very personal personal, and
Speaker 1: I feel like I can get very vulnerable in front
Speaker 1: of them, and um, I think that that is a
Speaker 1: really good marker for someone who like perhaps will go
Speaker 1: to a deeper place with you, and you know, and
Speaker 1: I'm I'm always like, okay, like, how long have you
Speaker 1: known your friends? What are Yeah, Like the boyfriend I
Speaker 1: had that who was like, I would say, the kindest,
Speaker 1: he was the like his group of friends was my
Speaker 1: favorite to hang out. Uh, And because I usually really
Speaker 1: hate hanging out with people's friends. I mean, my last
Speaker 1: relationship was different because we had these same friends, so
Speaker 1: that was nice and easy. But like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: there are some exes where like their friends, where I
Speaker 1: deserve an award for even hanging out with them. Yeah bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that I totally I relate to that in
Speaker 1: like a big way, I think, And and I also
Speaker 1: relate to the idea of someone having like no friends
Speaker 1: and making that feel and why that I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's also dangerous because then if you enter a relationship
Speaker 1: with that person, you're gonna be their only thing in
Speaker 1: their life. And that's not No one can handle that,
Speaker 1: not of pressure once. That's not fair. That One of
Speaker 1: the thing that Gine and I were talking about, Crimin
Speaker 1: before you got here was m shaming and public shaming
Speaker 1: and how you know that's not good, you know, and
Speaker 1: and how But my favorite topic I'm so interested to
Speaker 1: talk about, yeah, because and we arrived at this conclusion
Speaker 1: that you know, if if I have a boyfriend, um
Speaker 1: like that the one guy I dated who uh, we
Speaker 1: had an incident where he stuck his dick in my
Speaker 1: ass and I said no and pushed me off, and
Speaker 1: you know, I we talked. We happen to talk about
Speaker 1: it because I could get through to him right away
Speaker 1: and I saw that and I felt that and he
Speaker 1: felt it, and it felt it felt like we wrapped
Speaker 1: up the situation. We truly did and it didn't happen
Speaker 1: again kind of thing, and that was the right way
Speaker 1: to take it. But when that's not the case and
Speaker 1: they're like, I didn't do anything. Sometimes with sexual assault,
Speaker 1: we seed a lot, and with dark areas of life
Speaker 1: like pedophilia, the only way to get somebody to truly
Speaker 1: confront what's happening to them and who they are, and
Speaker 1: question it is by shaming them, And we're trying to think, well,
Speaker 1: what's an equally effective method to shame? Because if I
Speaker 1: just go up to you and I go you rape
Speaker 1: me and they're like whatever, by it's not gonna do
Speaker 1: anything because they have this wall up. But for some reason,
Speaker 1: shame can penetrate those walls for something that's so deeply rooted,
Speaker 1: and we're just trying to think about it. I just
Speaker 1: think it's dangerous because like the public has taken deciding
Speaker 1: who gets shamed into their own hands. Uh, And it's
Speaker 1: kind of like what you were talking about before with
Speaker 1: like psychoanalyzing other people. It's just really taking uh, the
Speaker 1: eyes away from looking within um. And so like all
Speaker 1: these things, it's you know, there's a lot of instances
Speaker 1: of it now, like especially with like racism and stuff,
Speaker 1: and like someone says one thing and then their entire
Speaker 1: career is taken away. And I'm not saying that I
Speaker 1: want a bunch of races walking around and then absolutely
Speaker 1: people should be paying for this, but like it's I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's very I'm very the environment becomes very very
Speaker 1: tense and I feel that all the time when someone
Speaker 1: says something like that and they're fired or or you know,
Speaker 1: Luis e Ks HBO specials are removed from HBO because
Speaker 1: he had a shitty judgment call couple of times. Like
Speaker 1: it's so dangerous, like like like feeling like you're being
Speaker 1: videotaped all the time with all these people, you know,
Speaker 1: all these like permit patties and such, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't call a fucking little black girl the cops
Speaker 1: on a little black girl selling lemonade because that's or
Speaker 1: whatever she was it was. You know, that's crazy. But also, uh,
Speaker 1: we can't be just like videotaping everything everyone is doing
Speaker 1: all the time. And I mean there's instances where people
Speaker 1: are actually getting assaulted and instead of helping, we're fucking videotape.
Speaker 1: But here, here is the here's the thing that that
Speaker 1: that I wonder and I don't I don't know the
Speaker 1: answer to this, but that that woman who was taped
Speaker 1: calling the cops on that black head who's trying to
Speaker 1: sell water, she if if she wasn't taped and it
Speaker 1: wasn't all over the news, I mean, she was embarrassed.
Speaker 1: I mean, hopefully she was embarrassed, but you would you
Speaker 1: would say, like, what happened her is embarrassing, right, But
Speaker 1: you know, if if that mother didn't tape the woman
Speaker 1: and just said, are you fucking kidding me? You're calling
Speaker 1: the cops on my child for selling water, you fucking idiot?
Speaker 1: You know, maybe the cops come and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is stupid. Maybe she feels a little bit of
Speaker 1: twinge of like, oh maybe that wasn't the right thing
Speaker 1: to do. But for whatever reason, shaming makes you, it
Speaker 1: makes you go backwards too much, I think, and what
Speaker 1: you question every little thing, and that's why we have
Speaker 1: these environments of tense nous of like men saying like
Speaker 1: I can't even say shut the funk up, act like
Speaker 1: a goddamn human and you're fine, But what is another
Speaker 1: way we could we could that's instead of shame, There
Speaker 1: replaces shame, But that also is just as or close
Speaker 1: to that effective, because my the for the just for that, like,
Speaker 1: my my danger with that is like number one, I
Speaker 1: don't think that lady is any less racist because of
Speaker 1: that experience. If anything, I think she's probably more racist. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it's just going to now just know because with
Speaker 1: her white friends and talk about, you know, how bad
Speaker 1: black people are and that they ruin her life. And
Speaker 1: then also I think the level at which she was
Speaker 1: shamed was probably not at the same level that it
Speaker 1: should have been. So like, yeah, she did something shitty. Uh,
Speaker 1: hopefully the cops are and we can't count on them
Speaker 1: are logical enough to to see that. But then also
Speaker 1: like she's getting death threats in response, So I don't
Speaker 1: think and it's like that's not I don't think that
Speaker 1: those things are Yeah, And so it's like when we leave,
Speaker 1: you know, that's why we have, you know, a judicial system,
Speaker 1: because the regular people were fucking hanging people when they
Speaker 1: still like you know, an orange and it's like someone
Speaker 1: and it's these extremities, and it's like, why can't we
Speaker 1: just dial both of the extremes down, like just a
Speaker 1: dial it down a little, right. But I do agree
Speaker 1: there is a place for shame. It's just I feel
Speaker 1: like now it's become completely blown out of proportion. I'm
Speaker 1: definitely not an advocate for shaming people. I don't think
Speaker 1: that that. I think like you got like we've sort
Speaker 1: of terrible the idea that like when you're confronting someone
Speaker 1: with something that perhaps could publicly shame them and then um,
Speaker 1: you know, the next in order to like you need,
Speaker 1: as the person who's confronting them, you need to do
Speaker 1: the work and you and I don't think that shaming
Speaker 1: is necessarily going to help you do the work. And
Speaker 1: I wonder, Oh, it's a total power move, But I
Speaker 1: also wonder what happens when you feel like the other
Speaker 1: person isn't necessarily doing the work either, So would shaming
Speaker 1: like really make them and force them to do the work.
Speaker 1: I probably will never find out. I'm not interested in that,
Speaker 1: but I just wonder, like, I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: when when I've felt the need to shame somebody, and
Speaker 1: I've certainly have throughout my life, it's always because I
Speaker 1: feel powerless and I know I'm gonna dangle this shame
Speaker 1: key over your fucking face until you either fix fix you,
Speaker 1: or you're gonna get real embarrassed. And that's that's I mean,
Speaker 1: that feels gross. That's an evil, Like, that's a that's
Speaker 1: a power move. Yeah and yeah, and again, like if
Speaker 1: we go back to the idea that like the blanket
Speaker 1: over all of it is anger, you know, and like
Speaker 1: you're allowed to be angry, and it's important to be angry,
Speaker 1: and in fact, I think there's quite a stigma on
Speaker 1: anger and and um, but getting to the root of
Speaker 1: it is probably pretty important because once you do, you
Speaker 1: can see like, oh, yeah, I feel really powerless and
Speaker 1: that's why I want to do all these lash out
Speaker 1: sort of things, you know what I mean? In that way,
Speaker 1: I guess, I don't know. It's just an interesting it's
Speaker 1: sort of how do we get people to want to
Speaker 1: do the work of themselves. I mean, I feel like
Speaker 1: there's the first hurl is realizing you have work to
Speaker 1: be I mean, I always think I'm this self aware, introspective,
Speaker 1: always very emotional, but I really like try and allow
Speaker 1: myself to feel that all the time. But then, like
Speaker 1: you know, for example, that breakup taught me that, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I didn't see this other corner of my
Speaker 1: brain and I didn't never went I've been blocked it
Speaker 1: since I was a little like funk, Like, I think
Speaker 1: awareness of that. It's but it's like, how do you You
Speaker 1: You don't know unless someone tells you that you got
Speaker 1: to do the work. Yeah, I mean, I think you'll
Speaker 1: figure it out through things like going through a major
Speaker 1: life event, like a breakup. Because it's also not our
Speaker 1: responsibility to tell everyone to do work on themselves. It's
Speaker 1: our responsibility to do work on ourselves and take the
Speaker 1: you know, some personal responsibility which is consistently lacking in society.
Speaker 1: And I think going along with what you're saying, like
Speaker 1: raising people who are always getting trophies, it's really that's
Speaker 1: there's no personal responsibility and you know, everyone can blame
Speaker 1: someone else for some shortcoming. And I think that's the
Speaker 1: danger that we're in right now with like equality, you know,
Speaker 1: gender equality and stuffle. It's, oh, it's men's fault that
Speaker 1: we're behind. Well't no, Maybe you should also knock on
Speaker 1: your boss's door and ask for a race. Like no,
Speaker 1: a man isn't holding you to your desk so that
Speaker 1: you can't do that physically. So there's there's middle. The
Speaker 1: middle ground is really key. And I think too when
Speaker 1: you think about maturing, like you know, it's a relational process.
Speaker 1: It's a process us that happens by relating to people.
Speaker 1: And it's a process that happens when you relate to
Speaker 1: people or when you decide to go and try to
Speaker 1: relate to people you know, And I think, um, you know,
Speaker 1: like even like like what you guys do, Like it's
Speaker 1: so important because people need to hear people having dialogues
Speaker 1: and people talking back and forth. Because then, at the
Speaker 1: very least, if you're cooking in your apartment, which I'm
Speaker 1: doing all the time, you know, like you can hear
Speaker 1: the dialogue. You can hear how people are relating to
Speaker 1: each other, and even if you're not partaking in it,
Speaker 1: you can kind of get there. But best case scenario
Speaker 1: is that you are partaking in it because you want
Speaker 1: to be changed on some people, you know what I mean? Right?
Speaker 1: And again, that relational process is only going to happen
Speaker 1: when you feel like you're not scared of the vulnerability
Speaker 1: of oh my gosh, what if I don't know what
Speaker 1: to say? What if I don't know what negging is, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know what I mean? Like you,
Speaker 1: So there's something vulnerable about even going to start that process.
Speaker 1: And I think that when we talk about maturity or
Speaker 1: like growing um into a more developed sense of ourselves generally,
Speaker 1: that can only really happen when you're relate, you know,
Speaker 1: figuring out how you relate to yourself and how you
Speaker 1: relate to other people. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people are, especially nowadays, are scared to have these vulnerable
Speaker 1: conversations because we are in such a shame happy society.
Speaker 1: So like every week, I feel like when we have
Speaker 1: this podcast, like we are literally running the risk of
Speaker 1: ruining our entire career by saying something that someone is
Speaker 1: going to misconstrue, isolate into a sound bite and then
Speaker 1: put on the internet. And like, so that's why it's
Speaker 1: so frustrating to me when we get emails like I
Speaker 1: can't believe you said that. That was wrong. That's not
Speaker 1: the word we're using. What have closed my interview? Uh?
Speaker 1: Because we do every now and then we do get
Speaker 1: a really well thought out email that says, Okay, I
Speaker 1: see what you're saying, but like let's flip it and
Speaker 1: if you just change the tone and make it so
Speaker 1: uh and make it not so accusatory or you are wrong.
Speaker 1: It's like, we need to be able to have conversations
Speaker 1: where we say something or use a word that maybe
Speaker 1: we're not you sing anymore and someone could be like,
Speaker 1: you know what, we're not using that word anymore, or
Speaker 1: oh that's not a or I feel like that's a
Speaker 1: very close minded perspective or I come from a different background.
Speaker 1: I am this ethnicity or this gender, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to tell you that's not true based on my experience.
Speaker 1: Yeah you, um, you told me. I didn't read this,
Speaker 1: but I'm curious what you with the main points where
Speaker 1: you wrote an essay on consent. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that led to the conversation too, because Karin always
Speaker 1: you always say, like, making a kid hug somebody is
Speaker 1: really fucked up and four and Jean was saying that,
Speaker 1: you know, she works with kids and they have to
Speaker 1: ask permission to hug you. Well, yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: think there's definitely a spectrum. Yeah. Um, you know, I
Speaker 1: want I don't want to sound like every child in
Speaker 1: the world to ask. Yeah no, but the idea, um,
Speaker 1: mostly how it relates to the other, to a lot
Speaker 1: like a lot of children. Um, but yeah no. I
Speaker 1: I am firmly believed that consent to something that is taught.
Speaker 1: It's not it's certainly not something that we just come
Speaker 1: out knowing. That's insane. Um. I think it has to
Speaker 1: do with the idea of privilege and the privilege that
Speaker 1: you think you can just get whatever you want whenever
Speaker 1: you want it. And I think that like consent and
Speaker 1: privilege are very sort of like buzzy words right now,
Speaker 1: and so it's hard to like say them maybe and
Speaker 1: have people not sort of like tune out. But the
Speaker 1: idea that, um, yeah, no, I'm telling kids like please
Speaker 1: ask me before you give me a hug. Please, um
Speaker 1: ask before you uh touch that person or you know what,
Speaker 1: I need to make sure that they're asking, because the
Speaker 1: truth is that we don't uh. While we want to
Speaker 1: come from an authentic place with early childhood, there are
Speaker 1: some things that um, you can just plant the seeds early,
Speaker 1: and so a kid doesn't necessary. I don't tell my
Speaker 1: kids like the political implications of you asking for me
Speaker 1: for all, Like I'm not being like because you know,
Speaker 1: I read in the news last time a kid. But
Speaker 1: the idea that like it just gives it just gives
Speaker 1: you pause, right, like Okay, I'm run up and grab someone. Wait,
Speaker 1: my practice, my script. My understanding of what that is
Speaker 1: is that no, first you ask, and that it's it's
Speaker 1: like when when sexual abuse happens and stuff, and in
Speaker 1: sexual assault, it's like, you know, one of the things
Speaker 1: that when we talk about content all the time, it's
Speaker 1: like what consent is part of what it is is
Speaker 1: taking a fucking second before you just go into something
Speaker 1: and just take it, you know, and just having that
Speaker 1: wait a second, that's that's the seed that is so
Speaker 1: that's not planted, then you get monsters right even here,
Speaker 1: like when we do like you know, meet meat do
Speaker 1: meet and Greeds or whatever. I've like talked a lot
Speaker 1: about how I like don't love hugging people. I don't
Speaker 1: know for many reasons I don't like, but you know,
Speaker 1: and part of it is also because for me, that
Speaker 1: takes value away from hugs for people I know a
Speaker 1: long time, because if I'm hugging everybody, what is the
Speaker 1: hug is not special anymore? Um So, But I mean
Speaker 1: people have started like saying like can I hug you?
Speaker 1: And like there's never been a time when I said no,
Speaker 1: But it does feel nice to have someone asked before
Speaker 1: they kind of like jump onto you or just say
Speaker 1: like I gotta hug you. And it's even if you
Speaker 1: feel the need that you have to hug me, it's
Speaker 1: this is this is a two way operation, and like
Speaker 1: perhaps I don't want to do that right now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I saw a good friend of you know, a friend
Speaker 1: of mine. I did a show her, I should. Her
Speaker 1: name is Diana. Oh she's amazing. Um. But she did
Speaker 1: a show and she did like an audience participation thing
Speaker 1: and it was you know, it was definitely like I
Speaker 1: don't see like a ton of theater, but it was
Speaker 1: like some downtown like theater like it was. It was um.
Speaker 1: But she did this one segment where she asked if
Speaker 1: anyone wanted to come on stage and um, and I
Speaker 1: apologize if I'm not getting this perfectly right, but basically
Speaker 1: like asking to practice consent. So she invited someone up
Speaker 1: on stage and she asked, like you know, just like
Speaker 1: asked them very nicely, like can I kiss you? And
Speaker 1: like then they would kiss, and then it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: can I touch your neck or something? And then and
Speaker 1: it was like no, no, no. It didn't go much
Speaker 1: further than that, but it was like it was like
Speaker 1: uncomfortable because it was not it was so anti what
Speaker 1: I'm used to seeing, like you're used to just seeing
Speaker 1: like two people like run and like jump on each other,
Speaker 1: and it was like and it was so polite and
Speaker 1: so kind and so gentle, and it just it really
Speaker 1: made me think about like how we sort of like
Speaker 1: treat our own physical bodies in relation to other physical bodies.
Speaker 1: And I think so much of all of this stuff
Speaker 1: gets planted early on and so by bye, you know,
Speaker 1: being able to say, like, let's just take pause for
Speaker 1: a second, because you don't you don't have the right
Speaker 1: to this. You know, you're not right. And sometimes they
Speaker 1: were just like I feel like the other party is
Speaker 1: just like so hungry for affection. So like I get
Speaker 1: where it's coming from. But even with like animals, I
Speaker 1: see people like being very like a g and not
Speaker 1: that it's like you know, animal rape or something, but
Speaker 1: in a way, it's like if an animal doesn't want
Speaker 1: to be pet, just don't fucking pet it, Like why
Speaker 1: would you even want to pet something that doesn't want
Speaker 1: to be pet? You don't understand. When I moved to
Speaker 1: New York is when I learned you have to ask
Speaker 1: people if you could pet their dogs. I didn't know that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I tried to pet stray cat last night, well and
Speaker 1: sort of and sort of vice versa. Like often, I mean,
Speaker 1: unless the situation presents itself differently, I'll ask a child
Speaker 1: like can I pick you up? You know, and even
Speaker 1: just because and even you asking them that makes them realize, oh,
Speaker 1: I can choose what happens. It's very empowering. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think like, I don't know, I feel like
Speaker 1: a lot of that can get come across as like
Speaker 1: a cold message or something that feels very like, you know,
Speaker 1: like just cold and not comforting. But it's so empowering. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And that's like a parent's job to be like, you know,
Speaker 1: touching and like it's touching a kid and giving them
Speaker 1: that that kind of emotion. But it's like it's right.
Speaker 1: I think that you're asking kids because then they know, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, going further into life, if someone tries to
Speaker 1: touch them in the way they don't want to be
Speaker 1: touched without asking, maybe a little alarm will go off
Speaker 1: in their heads sooner than it would have before. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or at the very least, Yeah, they'll be able to
Speaker 1: like feel uncomfortable, not make that feel comfortable, because that's
Speaker 1: like the the pattern is like, oh, I'm used to
Speaker 1: getting picked up without asking. Oh I'm used to getting
Speaker 1: hugged without asking. So then like that's not all that different.
Speaker 1: When you get to college and you're at like some
Speaker 1: crazy party, you know, and and it's really dangerous. Chad's
Speaker 1: just grab your titties and you're like, man, because men
Speaker 1: do that, like men do like lift up, like carry
Speaker 1: pick up women a lot. Like people have picked me
Speaker 1: up before, especially when you're short. It's like I'm like, what, well,
Speaker 1: I'm a fucking human. Like I know my my friend Katie,
Speaker 1: she's like four ten or something and she has like
Speaker 1: talks about on stage like how people are constantly like
Speaker 1: picking her up even though she's in her third because
Speaker 1: she is so petite, and it's like, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: What are you doing? Yeah, that seems like it's breaking
Speaker 1: a lot of rules. Thank you so much. Yeah for
Speaker 1: being here. Thank you guys, and really thank you for
Speaker 1: what you do, because I think it's like it's super important.
Speaker 1: And I think just to hear two people asking questions
Speaker 1: and talking and being able to sort of be a
Speaker 1: part of that on a weekly basis, it's, uh, I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's really important. Are there any books, specific
Speaker 1: books you would like to recommend to the listeners? They okay,
Speaker 1: they do, they always ask us just rewind. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: I like I feel like bell Hooks The Will to
Speaker 1: Change is like a great one that um, you know,
Speaker 1: brings up a lot of this like really radical stuff
Speaker 1: that I'm still sort of like digesting. Um. Carol Gilligan
Speaker 1: did a lot of like research, especially like thinking like
Speaker 1: the eighties, and she was like really influential in Um,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of this, not necessarily the pay
Speaker 1: a trierarchy talk, but a lot of the idea of
Speaker 1: like the power dynamic and how that can feel a
Speaker 1: little bit more balanced. Um. You know, I love this
Speaker 1: author named Leslie Jamison and this other author Andrew Solomon. Um,
Speaker 1: they're both of them are just have an amazing way
Speaker 1: of like just looking at the human experience in a
Speaker 1: really different way, and it really like flips it on
Speaker 1: its head. So I feel like that, Yeah, those two
Speaker 1: are really minds. Not not about kids, but they're really great.
Speaker 1: We're all just humans. We're all just humans. Were all
Speaker 1: trying to the best we know how to do. It's hard,
Speaker 1: and then we're living and growing and curious. People be curious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, thank you so much. Yes, thank you guys,
Speaker 1: so so and vote good thing to promote, and thank
Speaker 1: you so much for listening to you. Guys. They fucked
Speaker 1: the anti podcast. We will talk to you next Friday
Speaker 1: kind of thing. The boom enough Could it be the
Speaker 1: type of thing Ollie if the money is scold mussels.
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