Speaker 1: H ah beautiful. If it doesn't work, you're just not
Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to software radio, special operations, military
Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys in the community,
Speaker 1: Army Ranger and Green Beret Jack Murphy Lasagna. Don't get
Speaker 1: any on your Marine Scouts sniper Jason Delgado is just
Speaker 1: something we believe it. I associate that with taste, but
Speaker 1: I like freaking chocolate chi may Why is it flavor? Boring?
Speaker 1: The whole Lively board and now here's your co host
Speaker 1: and producer of this operation, Ian Scott l Ye Socrep
Speaker 1: dot Com on Time on Target, Ian Scotto here Jason
Speaker 1: Delgatto with me. Um really enjoyed last episode. By the way,
Speaker 1: with Donnie O'Malley, I I appreciated him getting it out
Speaker 1: on Instagram because I noticed you got on a new
Speaker 1: followers thanks to him and awesome, dude. I'll be honest,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how big he was. Like I've heard
Speaker 1: of Matt Best, I've seen his stuff. I know Matt
Speaker 1: has a huge following. I was not familiar with Donnie O'Malley,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you made the introduction. Man big, like
Speaker 1: I said, big fan of all those guys. Um, but
Speaker 1: Donnie O'Malley to me, because I'm huge on commonly a
Speaker 1: lot of people are like, I'm the huge Commy but whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like huge fans of Will Farrell, you know,
Speaker 1: Chris Tucker guys. Those are guys that, um, you know,
Speaker 1: you can Mike Gaps, you can you can have them
Speaker 1: go and and like in in an impromptu way. They
Speaker 1: can perform an entire set, you know what mean, these
Speaker 1: guys go off script all the time and and they
Speaker 1: provide a lot of comedic gold while they do that.
Speaker 1: And to me, I see that in Donnie O'Malley. That's
Speaker 1: talent right there, Like he's he's legit funny. So that's
Speaker 1: why I thought it would have been awesome to bring
Speaker 1: him on the show. And absolutely and and even checking
Speaker 1: out his videos, he does a great job. Like the
Speaker 1: production value his top notch. But I'm especially excited for
Speaker 1: tonight's guest, which is completely different than uh, something like
Speaker 1: Donnie with Jack Divine coming on. Veteran of the CIA
Speaker 1: from the sixties all the way up to the nineties, um,
Speaker 1: and I mean he's been instrumental in so many moments
Speaker 1: in American history, including the capture of Pablo Escobar, the
Speaker 1: fall of Chile as President Iran Contra, and the fight
Speaker 1: to push the Soviets out of Afghanistan in the late eighties.
Speaker 1: So it's like there's so much history there and it's
Speaker 1: always a real honor to talk to these guys. So
Speaker 1: I'm excited for it. Yeah, definitely, Uh, super super intriguing guests.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I've never interviewed someone of this caliber,
Speaker 1: you know, within the intelligence community. This is i mean,
Speaker 1: who else has you know, the jacket this guy has.
Speaker 1: You know, he's got thirty plus years you know, and
Speaker 1: in the CIA. That's pretty crazy. Um. Yeah, looking forward
Speaker 1: to see what he has to say on a lot
Speaker 1: of that today's topics, you know, considering you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of his expertise, you know, ran into uh basically
Speaker 1: trying to ounced you know, um FBI moles and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, that we're selling a lot of information to
Speaker 1: the Russian to the Russian government. So um, I'm sure
Speaker 1: he has a lot to say on that. That was
Speaker 1: pretty pretty cool. Yeah, this is similar to you know,
Speaker 1: guests we've had on in the past, but it's been
Speaker 1: a while. Guys like Oliver North or Bob Bear like,
Speaker 1: those are some really big names we've had on, but
Speaker 1: those were actually a couple of years ago at this point,
Speaker 1: So it's cool to get someone else from a background
Speaker 1: like that. Um, big announcement to make Jack Murphy, as
Speaker 1: you guys know, hasn't been here for the past couple
Speaker 1: of months and was very secretive about a show that
Speaker 1: he was working on, couldn't really talk about it. Well
Speaker 1: we can now because I think after the Hollywood Reporter
Speaker 1: has reported on you, uh, it's fair game to talk about.
Speaker 1: So here's the big announcement from the Hollywood Reporter Discovery
Speaker 1: and that's as in the Discovery Channel investigating inventor Nicola
Speaker 1: Tesla's mysterious death in new series. The series will also
Speaker 1: feature an engineer and his team as they build and
Speaker 1: test fire one of Tesla's most dangerous inventions, a weapon
Speaker 1: of mass destruction called the Death Ray. Discovery Channel is
Speaker 1: investigating the mysterious circumstances surrounding the death of inventor Nicola
Speaker 1: Tesla amid World War Two. The tentatively titled Tesla will
Speaker 1: also feature an engineer and his team as they build
Speaker 1: and test fire one of Tesla's most dangerous inventions. A
Speaker 1: weapon of mass destruction called the death Ray. In nineteen three, Tesla,
Speaker 1: who has been called the man who invented the twentieth century,
Speaker 1: was found dead in a hotel room. His safe was
Speaker 1: cracked open and his research was missing. In the FBI
Speaker 1: to classify two hundred fifty documents that provided new sight
Speaker 1: into Tesla's work and final days. The files revealed new
Speaker 1: information about the Death Ray and showed that world superpowers,
Speaker 1: including the US, Soviet Union, and Access powers, were all
Speaker 1: interested in the weapon. In the new series, military investigator
Speaker 1: Jack Murphy and Tesla historian Cameron Prince travel the globe
Speaker 1: hunting for information about Tesla's and innovations and the research
Speaker 1: that may have gone missing from his safe. The places
Speaker 1: they visit include Tesla's last standing American laboratory in Shoreham,
Speaker 1: New York, on Long Island, his first American lab in Colorado,
Speaker 1: and Serbia, his homeland. Murphy and Prince interview a wide
Speaker 1: range of people, including a rare conversation with Tesla's closest
Speaker 1: living relative. They also examined, never before seeing hand drawn
Speaker 1: sketches and calculations for the Death Ray that we're completed
Speaker 1: by Tesla himself. Additionally, Engineer Aaron Kasto and his team
Speaker 1: will build a prototype of the death Ray. If they
Speaker 1: can construct and operate this fatal weapon, it might provide
Speaker 1: a motive for order. Tesla's Death Ray could have swung
Speaker 1: the balance of power in World War Two. The world's
Speaker 1: superpowers would have been in a race to get the plans,
Speaker 1: or at least keep them out of the hands of
Speaker 1: their enemies. So here's all the info. The new series
Speaker 1: debuts on Discovery at ten pm East on Tuesday, January second,
Speaker 1: so that's right around the corner. It will be preceded
Speaker 1: by a special air in December twenty second that highlights
Speaker 1: Tesla's work and it has contributed to communication and transportation technologies. Uh.
Speaker 1: The series also will air on Science Channel on Monday nights.
Speaker 1: Starting January eight, all episodes will be available on Discovery Go.
Speaker 1: And I'm really psyched for this, and I'm really excited
Speaker 1: for Jack Murphy getting this opportunity. And I knew from
Speaker 1: the very beginning the shows about Tesla. But you know,
Speaker 1: when you sign these contracts with TV channels, you have
Speaker 1: to be pretty tight lipped event and these nondisclosure agreements,
Speaker 1: and you know you can only just say, oh, we're
Speaker 1: working on something pretty cool. You guys will have to
Speaker 1: just wait for a couple of months and trust me,
Speaker 1: it's now. You would think to like the people who knew,
Speaker 1: you know, Jack Murphy, they're like Nicola Tesla, the guy
Speaker 1: who helped invent the radio. Why you you know, you
Speaker 1: think of Jack Murphy doing like a special operations show
Speaker 1: and this is not it. But it's cool. It's gonna
Speaker 1: show his versatility. I think, yeah, definitely. And like I said,
Speaker 1: Tesla's one of the most intriguing minds of our history,
Speaker 1: you know, right there with Albert Einstein. I mean, he
Speaker 1: was working on a lot of innovative and I would
Speaker 1: I would see why this would be such a controversy.
Speaker 1: I mean, he was working a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of innovations that would have helped mankind, like powerless electricity.
Speaker 1: That was one of the biggest things he was working on,
Speaker 1: where he was constructing these huge towers and out of
Speaker 1: nowhere he would just shut down, and I guess all
Speaker 1: funding for that was pulled from him. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot there's a lot of controversies surrounding his life in
Speaker 1: general for the things that he was doing as far
Speaker 1: As is a progression of humanity. So yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. And Jack Murphy, Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: he's been missed on the podcast. People love hearing you,
Speaker 1: but people love hearing Jack. They're used to Jack, so
Speaker 1: they're like, where is this dude? And that's the reason
Speaker 1: why he'll be back. Guys look back in January and
Speaker 1: we'll go back to the month on, month off thing.
Speaker 1: And I like it, man. I think you guys both
Speaker 1: bring a different flavor to the show. Um, before we
Speaker 1: get too emails, I was going to say that Jason
Speaker 1: correctly predicted Alabama's Senate race that Roy Moore was gonna lose.
Speaker 1: I was incorrect. I mean, you know you could have
Speaker 1: been blind and seen that. You know. I credit to you,
Speaker 1: credited to you watching a lot more news than me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And like I said, it's just it was what you
Speaker 1: were very But what you were asking the people of
Speaker 1: Alabama to overlook wasn't something like a sexual assault allegation.
Speaker 1: It was a child on the station on allegation. You know,
Speaker 1: So whether it's still allegation, but whether the potential for
Speaker 1: it to be true, it is just no one wants
Speaker 1: to deal with that. You know, even if it could
Speaker 1: have been totally false and drummed up, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: The point is what if it could have and true.
Speaker 1: The people are, they're they're not going to live with
Speaker 1: themselves if they you know, they I don't know how
Speaker 1: they could live with their consciousness if they knew that
Speaker 1: they helped put someone like that, you know in the
Speaker 1: Senate razor thin victory though I think under two percent, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, it could have gone either way. And and
Speaker 1: actually I think they're waiting there also he put a
Speaker 1: hold on um actually confirmating Yeah, exactly so. Um, so
Speaker 1: he's waiting for the military and the overseas ballast to
Speaker 1: come in. So, but twenty thousand is a big number.
Speaker 1: I don't see that many coming in. I don't know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but we'll see. Maybe he's hopeful. Yeah, I I think
Speaker 1: that you know, he lost fair and square. It is
Speaker 1: what it is. But you were correct. Um. We have
Speaker 1: one quick email to get to really quick note before that. Um,
Speaker 1: we have now ended our contract with mid Roles. So
Speaker 1: what that means for you guys is like a lot
Speaker 1: of the libraries we're doing we're no longer under contract for,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna be really selective about advertisers coming in
Speaker 1: in the future because mid role is kd of an
Speaker 1: aggregate who worked with us and like I think literally
Speaker 1: hundreds of other podcasts or maybe dozens. Um. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: decided that we're going to do that independently. What that
Speaker 1: means for you guys is lessel Hive reads. I'm sure
Speaker 1: you'll be happy about that. Um, and we're gonna bring
Speaker 1: in some really cool advertisers foren of just great products,
Speaker 1: great services. Yeah, relative relative content and advertising. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think in the future that could be incorrect here,
Speaker 1: but I know there's been talks with like Harley Davidson
Speaker 1: maybe USA, a stuff like that that that you guys
Speaker 1: are really gonna dig. Um. Yeah, we're only going to
Speaker 1: bring in products that were like behind, not that we
Speaker 1: were in in the past, but uh, it was getting
Speaker 1: a little excessive with the libraries and we're just like
Speaker 1: we're switching things up a bit. Uh. Really quick email
Speaker 1: before Jack Devine. I had to mention this and I'm
Speaker 1: sure you'll like it. Interesting thing this comes from Steve Ruttledge,
Speaker 1: and I swear that name sounds very familiar. What do
Speaker 1: I know that guy? Yeah, Steve Ruttledge man what they
Speaker 1: were Facebook friends? Man's a marine another devil Doug. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well here's what he said. It's not really question, more
Speaker 1: of a comment. But he says, gents visited New York
Speaker 1: City and stopped in it Emmett's great place, and the
Speaker 1: guinness was really good. Thanks for the tip. Loved seeing
Speaker 1: the books on the walls, love the show semper five.
Speaker 1: He ends the note with, and yeah, if you're ever
Speaker 1: ever in New York City, stopped by emmit O Looney
Speaker 1: is in the heart of Time Square. That's not a
Speaker 1: paid advertisement. We just we love what he does. And
Speaker 1: by the way, not to be confused with oh looneys
Speaker 1: because his father owns a bar. This is em Loonies,
Speaker 1: which is actually right by Sirius sex sem It's right. Yes,
Speaker 1: in seven, I believe. Yeah, so visited. You'll see Jason's
Speaker 1: book on the wall. You'll see Brandon's book on the
Speaker 1: wall in Tonto's um. I think Drew Dwyer has his
Speaker 1: articles article, Leo Jenkins, Marty Scoveland. It's all and and
Speaker 1: of course Andrew will Cow who really made the introduction
Speaker 1: for all of us. I know that it happened hot
Speaker 1: Andrew was walking by that bar one day and he
Speaker 1: was like, Hey, you're Andrew Wilkow. Listen to your show
Speaker 1: all the time. And from there we made a lot
Speaker 1: of connections. Emma O, Looney Bar, None and the best
Speaker 1: establishments to be in. Yeah. Yeah, So hit it up
Speaker 1: if you get a chance. Um, unless you have anything
Speaker 1: else to say, I think we'll get over to Jack Divine,
Speaker 1: let's do it. So joining us for the first time
Speaker 1: on the podcast. We're really excited Jack Divine, veteran of
Speaker 1: the CIA from the sixties into the nineties, instrumental in
Speaker 1: so many moments of history around the world. Um, and
Speaker 1: it's just so much background there and I'm looking forward
Speaker 1: to getting into it. Uh. Founding partner of the ark
Speaker 1: And Group LLC and also the author of the latest
Speaker 1: book Good Hunting and American Spy Spymaster's Story. You could
Speaker 1: also check out the ark And Group online at the
Speaker 1: ark and Group dot com. And pleasure and honor to
Speaker 1: have you on, sir Well. It's great to be with you.
Speaker 1: So the first thing I'd like to get into is
Speaker 1: just your background in the CIA and how you got
Speaker 1: involved in the CIA, just the origin of that. Well,
Speaker 1: I actually was teaching High School in Delaware County, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: You know, I've done graduate work and tracking international relations
Speaker 1: and was interested in it. But when I joined, I
Speaker 1: joined in the sixty seven to give you some ancient timeline. UM,
Speaker 1: very few people talked about CIA. It wasn't a news story.
Speaker 1: Today every major newspaper has two people to just cover CIA.
Speaker 1: But back when I was there pop up in the
Speaker 1: screen once in a while, Bay picks, and then it disappeared.
Speaker 1: I didn't know anybody in the CIA, didn't have any
Speaker 1: links into the elites or whatever of the the network
Speaker 1: and CIA. And my wife gave me a book. It
Speaker 1: was called The Invisible Government and it was, you know,
Speaker 1: an a tackle in the CIA. By today standards, it
Speaker 1: would be a cream puff. You know how they overthrew
Speaker 1: the government, you rolled everything, which is true. But I
Speaker 1: read it thought, wow, what an interesting line of work.
Speaker 1: So when penns had incol and then I actually sat
Speaker 1: down and wrote a letter, there's no CIA, Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: And I want to behold a few months later I
Speaker 1: had a letter saying, go to twelfth and Chestnut and
Speaker 1: meet this guy and we'll see whether we like like
Speaker 1: your your look. So that's how it started. I mean
Speaker 1: I was probably one of the least informed, least prepare
Speaker 1: people that entered CIA and its history. At least I
Speaker 1: felt that way. But in retrospect and let me cap boss,
Speaker 1: we can have more questions, for sure. But you know,
Speaker 1: when I did the book and you look back on it,
Speaker 1: it's sometimes in life things play right for you. And
Speaker 1: I actually feel my DNA whatever is in it. I
Speaker 1: really felt like I fit there, and uh, and I
Speaker 1: think they felt I fit as well, since they didn't
Speaker 1: drive me out. But I really do feel by as
Speaker 1: serendipitous as the entry into the CIA was. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we all have a bit of destiny, and I think
Speaker 1: somehow I ended up in just the right place. Wouldn't
Speaker 1: change it. No second thoughts about my time in there
Speaker 1: are no angst about my experiences. That's amazing, that really
Speaker 1: is I just considering that, you know, you were inspired
Speaker 1: through your wife from a book and then from there
Speaker 1: just spawned off into an entire career. That's that was
Speaker 1: as extensive as yours. Super super amazing. Um. One of
Speaker 1: the one of the problems today is it's such a
Speaker 1: structured application process. I mean, I actually talked to people
Speaker 1: in the process of going in and I felt I
Speaker 1: was being looked at it like a small personal thing. Today,
Speaker 1: you know, they get a hundred thousand applications. It goes
Speaker 1: into computers, and I think people get thrown out that
Speaker 1: are probably really good candidates never get the first shot
Speaker 1: because it's you know, your computer numbers didn't add up.
Speaker 1: It's a fact. It's a factor of the time we
Speaker 1: live in. But I really feel we uh in circumstances.
Speaker 1: It's not anything could be rolled back. I feel today
Speaker 1: that it's really hard for people to break through the
Speaker 1: door and it's a shame numbers don't tell the whole story.
Speaker 1: Well that's amazing. So coming up in the CIA, I'm
Speaker 1: sure initially you have a bunch of lacklustered you know,
Speaker 1: jobs or responsibilities. I think I read you were analysts
Speaker 1: or documentalyst or something like that initially, and um, what
Speaker 1: was your first actual assignment that you were physically on
Speaker 1: the ground where you had to you know, work contacts
Speaker 1: and you know, recruit uh sources and stuff like that, Like,
Speaker 1: what was the first time I ever did that? So
Speaker 1: I joined the agency by the time I got through training,
Speaker 1: which is almost a year, and then Spanish language and
Speaker 1: then I did what I would you would call interim
Speaker 1: assignments on check desk and a couple other rotations. But
Speaker 1: I ended up in Latin America, which is kind of
Speaker 1: an interesting story. I want to go back. I do
Speaker 1: so little that I thought when we were coming out
Speaker 1: of the career training program, out of the famous farm
Speaker 1: and you decide where you want to go, I thought, well,
Speaker 1: I should go to Russia. That's where the Communists are.
Speaker 1: And so everyone had a career counselor so I went
Speaker 1: to this fellow. Your audience can't see this, but I'm
Speaker 1: six foot five. I don't really get the visual the
Speaker 1: visual profile. So the guy that was interviewing me, he
Speaker 1: was in the Bay of Pigs, and his name is
Speaker 1: Jerry Droller and he actually was a veteran a World
Speaker 1: War Two and worked with the resistance in France behind
Speaker 1: the lines against the Nazis and organized resist and tough.
Speaker 1: You know, smoke had a cigar hanging out of his
Speaker 1: mouth all the time. And he said, oh, no, no,
Speaker 1: you're you're too tall. You you can't go to Russia
Speaker 1: and be a spy. And I thought, well, yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess I guess he's right. So he walked me over
Speaker 1: the Latin American Division, and I ended up in Latin
Speaker 1: American Division. I don't wait a minute. That was my
Speaker 1: too call for Russia. But somehow six foot five I
Speaker 1: fit in in Latin America. You know, I think he
Speaker 1: was a recruiter for Latin America, so he was looking
Speaker 1: for warm bodies. But I come back to this hidden
Speaker 1: hand in people's career. I mean in Russia back in
Speaker 1: those days, it was sort of dull because they were
Speaker 1: all over you all the time. So it wasn't meeting
Speaker 1: recruiting and action. It was spending days finding thirty seconds
Speaker 1: where you could drop a rock with a note in
Speaker 1: it for some spy. In my case, I ended up
Speaker 1: in Chile. And for those of your members of your
Speaker 1: audiences either studied Latin American history or history in general
Speaker 1: were around in those days. I went to Jillian seventy
Speaker 1: one when President Salvadora and he had been elected, and
Speaker 1: the White House in the form of Henry Kissinger and
Speaker 1: Richard Nixon saw him as the next Castro. And then
Speaker 1: you know, he came in and power came into power,
Speaker 1: and a coalition included communists, so they referred to it
Speaker 1: as a Red Sandwich the Chile and at one end,
Speaker 1: and Cuba and the other. And they decided that they
Speaker 1: want to block the government. They wanted to overthrow it.
Speaker 1: The CIA said that's not going to work. It's not
Speaker 1: enough time between the election and as inauguration. They said
Speaker 1: to give it a try. This is documented by the way.
Speaker 1: You won't catch a secret today. I'm giving you context
Speaker 1: and I'm sharing with the things that this is all document.
Speaker 1: They spent a year investigating this thing. But what happened
Speaker 1: that it didn't work out, and then the CIA was
Speaker 1: instructed not to overthrow him, but to do everything you
Speaker 1: could to make life difficult and protect the democratic institutions.
Speaker 1: And that was sort of my job. But as time
Speaker 1: went by, idy of its own weight as turable policy.
Speaker 1: Very similar to Venezuela today. It's almost a mirror image
Speaker 1: of how Madero is handling the situation there. And in
Speaker 1: the end, the Second Army policies really drove it to
Speaker 1: the brink. And to make a long story short, Indy
Speaker 1: was overthrown and it was my agent who had the
Speaker 1: first report, but not the diminishtion with myself. I was
Speaker 1: out at lunch developing. You know, some contacts and my
Speaker 1: agent couldn't find me, and he was going to go
Speaker 1: to the airport and get out of town. So I
Speaker 1: found my wife at SOCI Actually was the first person
Speaker 1: to get information an American and official format that the
Speaker 1: government was going to be a withdrawn. So you can
Speaker 1: see in the files and the public record as a
Speaker 1: cable that I sent in based on Pats meeting with
Speaker 1: this fellow and saying that the the Navy will start
Speaker 1: in radio I group Twitter will come on at seven
Speaker 1: and Andy is gonna be over the round. And it
Speaker 1: was sent as a critic message for those that aren't
Speaker 1: familiar with it. When you send a priority or immediate flash,
Speaker 1: but then you get the critic, it just rides overall communications,
Speaker 1: knowing gets a chance to filter it. So it went
Speaker 1: from the hands of the Chief of Station and Santiago
Speaker 1: right into the White House saying that the coop was
Speaker 1: going to come the next day. So that was that
Speaker 1: was my first assignment, and I think the extraordinary thing.
Speaker 1: And again I don't want to harp with my naive
Speaker 1: to tell you, but you know, I lived in parochial
Speaker 1: Delaware County, and next thing you know, I'm sitting in
Speaker 1: a country my first day, there is a hundred thousand
Speaker 1: Communists marching on the street with flags, and you know,
Speaker 1: they threw a bomb. They drew a bomb at the
Speaker 1: house next to me, Missboo, off the back of the house.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was it was it was like, wait,
Speaker 1: what happened my summers down at Ocean City, New Jersey?
Speaker 1: And so it was. It was rather rather exciting, rather dramatic,
Speaker 1: very painful for the Chilian population because they went from
Speaker 1: the far left extremes and then they know when they
Speaker 1: ended up with Canochet, they had a very repressive government
Speaker 1: for years so and prior to that they had a
Speaker 1: long history I think a hundred fifty years of democratic government.
Speaker 1: So for the average Chilian it was a really a
Speaker 1: tough two decades. So, but as a foreigner being there
Speaker 1: and being in the middle of the political fray and
Speaker 1: meeting with some of the most important movers or shakers
Speaker 1: on both sides, because I had agents that were in
Speaker 1: the Communist Party, but I also had players that were
Speaker 1: very well tied into the stable wishment there. So it
Speaker 1: was really quite interesting. Did um so did you? Did
Speaker 1: you work a lot of contacts that had that fluidity
Speaker 1: between because it was a communist. I would imagine that
Speaker 1: fluidity between um, what was happening in South America, that
Speaker 1: where we were dealing with, and what transition later on
Speaker 1: to the Mujahadeen being supported to fight Russia and stuff like.
Speaker 1: Was that a effortless transition for you or was it
Speaker 1: something that you had to just pick up and started
Speaker 1: over again. Well, there was a for your audience, there
Speaker 1: was a huge gap. I left Chili in September of
Speaker 1: UH seventy three, and then I spent one to five
Speaker 1: assignments abroad, three of them is chief of station in
Speaker 1: Latin America and then in mid carest. So what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of time between May and then, UM,
Speaker 1: I decided I want to change area. That was I
Speaker 1: don't want to become just a Latin American specialist at
Speaker 1: that point. And this is a long story, but I
Speaker 1: was uncomfortable with our program in Central America, not because
Speaker 1: I didn't want to resist the uh sundaista's um my views.
Speaker 1: We should have been inside and there there were some
Speaker 1: of my friends thought they should be organizing the conscious
Speaker 1: on the outside, and look, you know, people are entitled
Speaker 1: to the review. But I voted with my fate and
Speaker 1: I said, well, I'll go to the Middle East. That'll
Speaker 1: be a new place. So instead of leaving the frying
Speaker 1: fan into a cushy job, I ended up leaving Latin
Speaker 1: American became the chief of the Iranian branch. And for
Speaker 1: those who crack the Middle Eastern history, and we had
Speaker 1: the disastrous around Contra Yes, Sir, which I was thrown
Speaker 1: in the middle of that. And again we could spend
Speaker 1: hours talking and I thought it was the idea of
Speaker 1: trading hostages for missiles was still found. It I understand
Speaker 1: why it happened. Again, this might be of interest to
Speaker 1: your readers, but I mean to your listeners. But there
Speaker 1: was the CIA chief and beyrout named William Buckley, the
Speaker 1: first class guy, and it was a very dangerous place
Speaker 1: beyrout noose days and he was kidnapped at the time,
Speaker 1: and the twirtured and killed. But what people don't realize
Speaker 1: there were videos of that. They were sent back to
Speaker 1: CIA headquarters and the director at the time was Bill Casey,
Speaker 1: and he would take them down and he and President
Speaker 1: Reagan would look at these horrible things, and just so
Speaker 1: they didn't know he was dead yet, he would just
Speaker 1: have to do everything to get Buckley and the other
Speaker 1: hostages out. So I think there they were well intentioned.
Speaker 1: But the problem once you start dealing with hostages and
Speaker 1: trading then and this is what actually happened there in
Speaker 1: the country in case, they they released three and then
Speaker 1: they kidnapped three more, so you know, you it's a
Speaker 1: a vicious circle. So the training was I thought, bad policy,
Speaker 1: but you know, people get elected as president, they can
Speaker 1: make bad policy. It's the Americans decision. They put them in.
Speaker 1: They decide it's not ci h job to do policy.
Speaker 1: So if that's what they wanted to do. But the
Speaker 1: guy that brought the deal together as an Iranian named
Speaker 1: Kubani Far and we had a file at least two
Speaker 1: inches thick of how bad he wasn't, how much of
Speaker 1: a fabricator, and that he failed to polygraph. So they
Speaker 1: had the person putting together had no confidence in either.
Speaker 1: And I was still junior. It was probably somewhere in
Speaker 1: the range of lieutenant colonel in those days in the system,
Speaker 1: and I thought, oh, well, you know this is this
Speaker 1: is so bad it will never happen. Well, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: they came to a certain points, so look, we know
Speaker 1: you don't like this, but can you organize the flights
Speaker 1: and the missiles and all of this. So I did,
Speaker 1: but I thought, you know, this is such a bad
Speaker 1: I'm never going to happen anyway. So I learned a
Speaker 1: really important lesson. And there was a Secretary of State, Schultz,
Speaker 1: who once said, no bad idea dies in Washington. He's
Speaker 1: absolutely right. So this thing didn't die of natural consequences.
Speaker 1: So when I would brief agency officers going overseas to
Speaker 1: take command to post, I would say, if you see
Speaker 1: a dumb idea, you know you drive a spike to
Speaker 1: its heart. He can't hope that it dies. Long story
Speaker 1: short on this. The problem evolved when I was charging.
Speaker 1: I'm just giving you theretical numbers because I think you're
Speaker 1: still classified, but a million dollars for one of the missiles,
Speaker 1: but the Iranians were paying two million, and not known
Speaker 1: to me, the other million was being funneled back into
Speaker 1: the countries in Central America. Somebody thought that was a
Speaker 1: brilliant idea, and leaving the idea side the Congress the
Speaker 1: year before it said no money, no U S money
Speaker 1: can go to supporting the countrys. So this was a
Speaker 1: violation of law that became the problem for the Regulan
Speaker 1: administration almost brought it down. Uh, and they had all
Speaker 1: the famous trials and CIA people were put on trial
Speaker 1: and not the North and it became, you know, bigger.
Speaker 1: I would say, it's even bigger than Well, it didn't
Speaker 1: bring down Reagan in the end, it did bring the
Speaker 1: Watergate did bring down next but it was almost as
Speaker 1: big and damaging. So when I left that, I guess
Speaker 1: they decided that maybe I had called a few things right,
Speaker 1: and they put me in charge of the task force
Speaker 1: to drive the Russians out of Afghanistan. So that is
Speaker 1: the long arc of how they got from Chile to
Speaker 1: dealing with the Mujadine. Out of curiosity, I'm just wondering now, uh,
Speaker 1: if you saw that way as Tom Cruise Action Fleck,
Speaker 1: because I saw it. I thought it was good, but
Speaker 1: I mean you would know better than anyone if if
Speaker 1: it was historically accurate. Well, I didn't see it, but
Speaker 1: it would be the first movie that I've seen. This
Speaker 1: mean Charlie Wilson's Roar. I knew Charlie and traveled with Charlie,
Speaker 1: and you know, the tremendous patriot and the guy who
Speaker 1: did a great service, but it wasn't his war. And
Speaker 1: and he and I had dinner at Sparks Restaurant with
Speaker 1: our wives here in New York, and Sparks is a
Speaker 1: very well where that's where Paul Castiana the Mafias got killed.
Speaker 1: But this appealed the Charlie sent of romance. We're gonna
Speaker 1: eat where the where Mafia Don was killed. So when
Speaker 1: I came in and we sat down, and he said, Jack,
Speaker 1: I know you didn't like the book. You're going to
Speaker 1: hate the movie because he knew what I knew when
Speaker 1: that was, you know, a congressman and a rogue CIA
Speaker 1: do not change history. I mean, I don't care who
Speaker 1: they are. If you're going to have a regime change,
Speaker 1: it's a big government program with a lot of government
Speaker 1: people working together, you know, sergeants, gs, twelves, people in logistics.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a you know, and it is not
Speaker 1: a one person's war. But Charlie was such a wonderful
Speaker 1: property and public relations guy. It's really quite a feat
Speaker 1: to have a war named after it, particularly if it
Speaker 1: wasn't your war. The Stinger, which was a history changing
Speaker 1: to me, one of those points in history, and there
Speaker 1: are relatively few of them where you can say a
Speaker 1: single weapon system changed the course of history. Charlie, if
Speaker 1: you read the book carefully said, I had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with it. But in his office he had an
Speaker 1: expended stinger, a tube and hanging and you know in
Speaker 1: the movie it's you know him and but that's not
Speaker 1: what happened. So I didn't see the Tom Hanks movie
Speaker 1: Tom Cruise. I'm sorry. I was thinking of Tom Hanks close.
Speaker 1: He played Charlie Wilson. So I don't know. I'll have
Speaker 1: to go see what was the what's the theme of it?
Speaker 1: But what what war? Oh, it's a Central America to
Speaker 1: be around Concraus stuff, and yeah, but I think it
Speaker 1: does it deals only with the one aspect of it,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean it's it's it's an action primarily.
Speaker 1: You saw it, right, Yeah, I think it's. It was
Speaker 1: aside from that one aspect which we were talking about,
Speaker 1: the the drug drug smuggling, Yeah it was. You know,
Speaker 1: they also highlighted a lot about you know, the money transfer,
Speaker 1: the money moving, and a bunch of things. Weapon weapon
Speaker 1: cashets were flying, the contrast to training grounds in the US,
Speaker 1: stuff like that. I just always like to hear that
Speaker 1: was it accurate? Let me jump in on that the
Speaker 1: drugs are yeah, I mean for the CIA and TIF
Speaker 1: for kind of our codeagues when Escobar metis the mise.
Speaker 1: But I'm on this one point movie aside. I know
Speaker 1: because I've had a friend tell me about the movie. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's very controversial. But the planes that were the CIA
Speaker 1: was not bringing drugs. You know, I'm saying this emphatically
Speaker 1: with not any hesitation or any qualification without flying drugs
Speaker 1: into the United the United States. I mean, it became
Speaker 1: a really hot button issue. There was an article in
Speaker 1: San josein Mercury, you know, all about this, and then
Speaker 1: eventually the journalist was fired because the story turned out
Speaker 1: to be false. But it it lingered and lingered. I
Speaker 1: think the issue might be. First part, I'm positive of
Speaker 1: what might have been. It's the same planes that were
Speaker 1: used to move weapons may have been used by independently
Speaker 1: of the U. S. Government, and the CIA also was
Speaker 1: used as drug running planes. But so it's a mistake
Speaker 1: to loot them together. And I don't want anybody in
Speaker 1: your audience or any audience thinking for a minute that
Speaker 1: the C I A. I mean, we're engage in those activities.
Speaker 1: One of the things that people don't under stand is
Speaker 1: just how regulated the CIA is and how legalistic it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, I had a lawyer, truely, I'm not exaggerating
Speaker 1: twenty feet for me for the last fifteen years of
Speaker 1: my career. Wasn't because I was particularly dangerous. Other people's
Speaker 1: centator jobs had lawyers. But you know, the the agency
Speaker 1: maybe laws across the around the world, but they're the
Speaker 1: laws that are authorized by the US of the Attorney Justice,
Speaker 1: Attorney gentleman, the Justice Department. The US laws are dealt with.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how judiciously. So the idea that
Speaker 1: this could happen is is far fetched. I don't think
Speaker 1: that story sine very is very helpful, and it continues
Speaker 1: the myth of the rogue CIA. And I would tell
Speaker 1: you the only rogue part of my thirty two years
Speaker 1: and plus the extensive reading I've done in writing books
Speaker 1: and so on, is that one point of the Irun
Speaker 1: country affair, there were CIA people that worked off the books,
Speaker 1: not the leader. You know, it wasn't the CIA is
Speaker 1: an institution, but some folks worked off the books. It's
Speaker 1: the only point, only point in my experience and I
Speaker 1: was responsible for all of the agency's operations back in
Speaker 1: the late nineties, so I had visibility. So the idea
Speaker 1: of the CIA is a rogue entity is one of
Speaker 1: the Hollywood as. I think in the Tom Cruise movie,
Speaker 1: to be fair, they did depict what you just said
Speaker 1: that it was of his own doing. The CIA actually
Speaker 1: hired him to take photos of our areas. I think
Speaker 1: they were saying in the place that's then he on
Speaker 1: his own decided, well he got balled up. He got
Speaker 1: balled up down to South America, and I guess he
Speaker 1: was saying he was forced to, you know, make a
Speaker 1: delivery or two, and then just got into it from there. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe I'll go see it now that you've clarified that,
Speaker 1: because some of this is painful to watch. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't like Well, it took years to go watch
Speaker 1: a James Bond movie. I sat beside Sean Connery one night.
Speaker 1: That's another story. But somewhere along the line, I finally
Speaker 1: the light bulb offer, so why are you complaining? Look
Speaker 1: at you look in the mirror, and people think that
Speaker 1: people look like James the Sean Connery, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: and that they're all hum omnipotent, you know. So you know,
Speaker 1: with all your flows, sure you want to be portrayed.
Speaker 1: What why are you fighting this? And it's true when
Speaker 1: you get around to the bottom line, most of the
Speaker 1: you know, the James Bond movies, at the end it's
Speaker 1: you know, some British going out patriotically trying to destroy
Speaker 1: the enemy and they have you know, it's all the
Speaker 1: hollywoodization of it. But the bottom line is probably not
Speaker 1: too far off. So I decided that you know, actually
Speaker 1: the mystique is great did by Hollywood. It can be
Speaker 1: very helpful because many of the foreigners that I dealt
Speaker 1: was actually thought that you know, I could leave buildings
Speaker 1: in a single bound. The more they got to know me,
Speaker 1: the more they realized that wasn't true. I think it
Speaker 1: was the I think it's an American made as the
Speaker 1: name of the movie, and it was the story of
Speaker 1: the pilot, Barry Seal, And yeah, it got into how
Speaker 1: he was independently doing his own thing on the side,
Speaker 1: you know, and still and working for the CIA, and
Speaker 1: he had he used his protection from the CIA to
Speaker 1: get away with some of the crappy and he was
Speaker 1: doing so that's what it was. But that's how he
Speaker 1: depicted that in the movie. Yeah, that's a credible line.
Speaker 1: But I would just tell you this is not critiquing
Speaker 1: anyone particular, but part of tradecraft, part of the experience
Speaker 1: of running operations, is that when you have an agent,
Speaker 1: you have to be constantly vetting that agent so that
Speaker 1: you're sure, yeah, that there's not water working both sides
Speaker 1: of the street, that it was reporting he was writing
Speaker 1: reporting to the Cubans. For another. There is a counterintelligence
Speaker 1: to mention to all operations. Now it's not perfect, okay,
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying I would just say to you
Speaker 1: that part of the tradecraft, the professional way that cases
Speaker 1: should be approached is when you're working with foreign governments,
Speaker 1: for example, you're giving the money, you're working with them.
Speaker 1: Often it's very useful to have a unilateral somebody that
Speaker 1: no one knows is working for you keeping an eye
Speaker 1: on them to make sure the weapons are going where
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be going, and the telephone taps aren't
Speaker 1: being used on local politicians instead of uh, terrorists. You know.
Speaker 1: So there is a counterintelligence piece. And if I'm not
Speaker 1: saying whether the story is true or not, but it
Speaker 1: sounds like more work should have been done on that.
Speaker 1: I agree with that. Um. I think that would be
Speaker 1: a good segue into your experience. Was Um, from what
Speaker 1: I read, your experience with FBI moles and you know
Speaker 1: building cases are going after them. Can you elaborate on that? Well,
Speaker 1: you know we talked by the very beginning of my
Speaker 1: career when I was, you know, pushing paper around waiting
Speaker 1: to get into the program. And I'm not exaggerating when
Speaker 1: I say seven feet from me sat Rick Games. Rick Games,
Speaker 1: for your audience, was the CIA official who during his
Speaker 1: career became a Russian expert and handled some of the
Speaker 1: most sensitive cases. And then late, relatively late in his career,
Speaker 1: he became a trader and walked into the Russian embassy
Speaker 1: and we could talk about this in more detail, walked
Speaker 1: in and volunteered his services, and in the process of
Speaker 1: offering his services that he coughed up the names of
Speaker 1: eleven of our agents inside the Kremlin and the Soviet infrastructure,
Speaker 1: and all eleven were executed. Now I knew Rick person
Speaker 1: the lake went through his wedding and it is It's
Speaker 1: one of those great agonies in life to no personally
Speaker 1: someone you would consider quote unquote a friend or at
Speaker 1: least be friendly with that they betrayed their their country.
Speaker 1: So that was the c I A case, so that, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it was very disturbing to all of us,
Speaker 1: the FBI case when Rick was arrested and put in jail.
Speaker 1: By that point I was at the I think the
Speaker 1: number two position at the CIA and um not c
Speaker 1: but in the operational director And at that time we
Speaker 1: knew that AIMS we had lost more agents than AIMS
Speaker 1: could now about, so that there had to be another mall.
Speaker 1: And that is a nightmare and in of itself, and
Speaker 1: some of the people in the agency started wearing buttons
Speaker 1: never again, and it was it's absurd because we're recruiting
Speaker 1: people in there system, They're recruiting in hours. It's part
Speaker 1: of the painful territory. But more importantly, I knew that
Speaker 1: never again was very unrealistic because we knew there was
Speaker 1: them all. So I worked with the FBI. We had
Speaker 1: a number of officers working inside the CIA. We started
Speaker 1: a major man hunt for that mall, and you know,
Speaker 1: we had a lot of leads and again I could
Speaker 1: go into the mechanics for this at some length, but
Speaker 1: I left and that was in I think December of
Speaker 1: and when I think back of my career, you say, well,
Speaker 1: what did you get done? I mean, obviously a lot
Speaker 1: of things. You can think of what we said, what
Speaker 1: was important. I didn't find that mall. So you leave
Speaker 1: and you feel mission and completed, but you know, you
Speaker 1: hope somebody follows on on two thousand and four. Turns
Speaker 1: out the mole wasn't in CI after all. He was
Speaker 1: in FBI, and he was the Near Russia group. And
Speaker 1: I'll let the FBI explain why they didn't go hunting there.
Speaker 1: But and he worked for I think from the late seventies,
Speaker 1: Off and on, very long story. There's a good movie.
Speaker 1: I think it's Betrayal, where I can't remember. It was
Speaker 1: Charles Cooper. I think Cooper's Brad. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: go there, but a great actor plays Robert Hansen, this
Speaker 1: FBI guy, and they started, you know, we gotta We
Speaker 1: got a tip from a source that he was in
Speaker 1: the FBI, and then, as fate would have it, a
Speaker 1: KGB guide defected and he brought Hansen's file, but it
Speaker 1: didn't have his name in the file, but it had
Speaker 1: a trash bag that Hansen had provided documents which had
Speaker 1: his fingerprints on it, and it had a audio tape.
Speaker 1: There was one phone call he made to the KGV
Speaker 1: and they recorded it, not the FBI. So when we
Speaker 1: when the file was produced, the very senior people the
Speaker 1: FBI sat there and listened to the audio tape and
Speaker 1: immediately recognized it was Robert Robert Hansen, but he was
Speaker 1: responsib at the death of another set of very good sources.
Speaker 1: It was a very bad period in the counterintelligence field
Speaker 1: in the sense that you know, human sources betrayed some
Speaker 1: of our most important agents and with devastating impact. The
Speaker 1: same with you know, Edward Snowden. You know, in all
Speaker 1: these contract with these analysts and stuff like that, they think,
Speaker 1: you know, potentially what they're doing is not going to
Speaker 1: have that the those consequences, but they do. I mean,
Speaker 1: you're talking about quite quite a few people getting killed
Speaker 1: over this outing. The difference in the post nine eleven period,
Speaker 1: if you remember, there was an expression connect the dots.
Speaker 1: I never liked the idea because but it's catchy. I mean,
Speaker 1: everyone immediately gets connecting dots, you know. So the problem
Speaker 1: with connecting the dots you have to have good dots
Speaker 1: to start with, which is one task, but the other
Speaker 1: thing is you can start connecting dots. You increase your
Speaker 1: vulnerability when you have a compromise. So the world we
Speaker 1: live in today with the high technology, I mean if frankly,
Speaker 1: if aims or handsome, we're sitting in c i A.
Speaker 1: In this age of computers and centralization of data, I mean,
Speaker 1: they might have been able to take every agent in
Speaker 1: the building. So Snowden was sitting at a hub. It was.
Speaker 1: And what's interesting about Snowdon is there's similarities with some
Speaker 1: of the top traders and personality traits. And I'll go
Speaker 1: go there in a second. But he was sitting there
Speaker 1: as a very junior person I think a GS twelve
Speaker 1: for the non government types that might be listening, I
Speaker 1: mean that that would be like a lieutenant in the military, right.
Speaker 1: And so he was there was a technical job, but
Speaker 1: everything happened to be going going through him, and he downloaded.
Speaker 1: He had no idea how much he downloaded. It was,
Speaker 1: you know, knew some of it was good. And the
Speaker 1: interesting thing about them is uh and this is make
Speaker 1: a description of traders in general. One of the common
Speaker 1: traits among them is that they have a very big ego.
Speaker 1: They have to think they're very smart, smarter than everybody else. Uh,
Speaker 1: and the narcissistic in that sense. But what they and
Speaker 1: some of them are actually quite smart. But the other
Speaker 1: trait they have is a personality flaws and underperformed. They're
Speaker 1: lady see, intellectually lace. In other words, I'll do a
Speaker 1: because I like it, but I'm not going to do so.
Speaker 1: The school records aren't particularly good. They always are under performing.
Speaker 1: Well when you join the government, joined the military, if
Speaker 1: you're an underperformer, your career will go forward, but at
Speaker 1: a slower rate. So when you get further into your career,
Speaker 1: there's a big gap between where you are and where
Speaker 1: your peer group is. And so in the case of
Speaker 1: the Games or Snowden, you know, they were moving at
Speaker 1: a very slow rate. And most people, really their defection
Speaker 1: is based not so much on some political issue, but
Speaker 1: the fact that your career, and they blame the career,
Speaker 1: not under their under performance in LAS, and they blame
Speaker 1: it on the system. So I think it's some degree
Speaker 1: you see that now. I don't believe that Snowden was
Speaker 1: an agent at the beginning. I think you know, he
Speaker 1: had these sets of um this functionality or man to
Speaker 1: system and wanted to get even with the system. But
Speaker 1: once you travel and take refuge in the Soviet Union,
Speaker 1: your food, who you meet, your job, everything amount, you're
Speaker 1: totally in a system that has controls your entire life.
Speaker 1: You are no longer free. So your behavior, your behavior,
Speaker 1: you might as well be an agent of influence because
Speaker 1: you're doing You can only do things that are consistent.
Speaker 1: So whether he was an agent at the beginning is
Speaker 1: a very good academic thing to sort out. At some point,
Speaker 1: the Russians would have been extraordinary lucky if they can
Speaker 1: found Snowdon and recruited him. So I don't believe that's
Speaker 1: the case, but I do believe today he's under their
Speaker 1: their influence. And you know, I would just say that
Speaker 1: he's a pope of the intelligence system. So I know
Speaker 1: that all those that are believe that the Internet ought
Speaker 1: to be open and free and no tre and totally
Speaker 1: transparent and and find him heroic. I would just say
Speaker 1: he did tremendous billions of dollars of damage to put
Speaker 1: lives at risk. And I don't think it was for
Speaker 1: a superior cause. I think it was for personal interest.
Speaker 1: I definitely agree. Um, I don't know. I also accredited
Speaker 1: or a credit. A lot of the unstable, uh, unstable
Speaker 1: political atmosphere that we're dealing with right now has a
Speaker 1: lot to do with that distrust that you know that
Speaker 1: was out and along with his you know, his disclosures. Um.
Speaker 1: You know one thing that you brought up aside from
Speaker 1: all this um gloominess we're talking about. I thought it
Speaker 1: was interesting. I kind of hopefully, hopefully you'll be able
Speaker 1: to elaborate on it, because you had a really long
Speaker 1: career in a very tough industry and it sounds like
Speaker 1: to me your wife was extremely supportive of you every
Speaker 1: step of the way, even to the introduction of the
Speaker 1: industry or the field. Um. And then you said also
Speaker 1: in Chile, he said she received the news of the
Speaker 1: president as well. Right, So I assume she was there
Speaker 1: with you and working with you, you know, like, you know,
Speaker 1: just helping you out. You know, what was that the case?
Speaker 1: And can you elaborate on this? A lot of people
Speaker 1: that have long career, the wives, you know, are kind
Speaker 1: of I think that's a great, great subject and hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll be uplifting. I wasn't trying to have it down
Speaker 1: or there, because I think there's two ways of looking
Speaker 1: at this, I mean, if you look at the the
Speaker 1: Aimes case, what it does tell the American people. As
Speaker 1: we were doing our work, there were do you know
Speaker 1: a dozen people that we had a strategically placed so
Speaker 1: um and yes, being traders, but it's part of the
Speaker 1: it's part of the business. But we also, you know,
Speaker 1: the high note in the context of this is we
Speaker 1: did get the Russians out of Afghanistan. So let me
Speaker 1: not leave that part of the story. And because I
Speaker 1: actually spent most of my life and say I a
Speaker 1: in a very optimistic frame of mind, but coming to
Speaker 1: my wife Pat Um and I don't know, I hope
Speaker 1: some of your audience understands this. I think I would
Speaker 1: describe myself as sort of like a wallflower. You know,
Speaker 1: when we first started dating, and Pat's verry effervescent and outgoing.
Speaker 1: So when we would go to cocktail parties. Again, you
Speaker 1: wonder how I got into the c I A. We
Speaker 1: first started going out to the cocktail parties and we'd
Speaker 1: be meeting Russians in Cubans or her locals and the government.
Speaker 1: We go around the party and Pat would be Jack,
Speaker 1: you come over here, give this guy your card. Well,
Speaker 1: by the way, we'd like to have you come to
Speaker 1: the coffee. So she was the spark plug of interperson relationships.
Speaker 1: Now I would like to think over time, you know,
Speaker 1: I learned things and I think I've got I got
Speaker 1: better at it and over smoother in my in a relationship.
Speaker 1: But I really got to push there um and she
Speaker 1: was extremely supportive because it's one of these things, well
Speaker 1: what do you do today? There, I can't tell you
Speaker 1: what I did today? We are going tonight. Well you know,
Speaker 1: I'd like to tell you, but you know, so it's
Speaker 1: you have to have a very supportive wife and what
Speaker 1: your audience may up be aware of. Early in our
Speaker 1: career we had five children, and later in their career
Speaker 1: we had one more. So we have a we have
Speaker 1: a clan of six kids and now just another grand
Speaker 1: it's the number four team. We were moving clan. So
Speaker 1: but I want to tell you this one story about it,
Speaker 1: which I find fascinating. So I described how tense the
Speaker 1: situation was getting in Chili and you could feel the
Speaker 1: country fallen apart, and I was concerned that I'd be
Speaker 1: trapped in the embassy, should be home with the kids.
Speaker 1: So one Sunday afternoon, I said listen, Pat, in a
Speaker 1: case of emergency, you know what I'm gonna do is, uh,
Speaker 1: let's put the sofa. Will slide the sofa over here.
Speaker 1: Now you kneel down. Now here's a salt off shotgun.
Speaker 1: Now you pointed the door of a donain aim at
Speaker 1: the head because you're likely to miss missed as I
Speaker 1: got to aim at the chest. So she said, well
Speaker 1: how do you reload this thing? So, if you think
Speaker 1: about it, I mean, this are young people. This is
Speaker 1: where you're like the frog in the boiling water. You know,
Speaker 1: the frog said, you don't really, it's so dangerous, and
Speaker 1: you think you're inevitable. I must. I needed to have
Speaker 1: my head examined that I didn't get my family out
Speaker 1: of there. But somehow you think it's not going to go.
Speaker 1: But Pat undauntedly say, sure, look you're not here. I'll
Speaker 1: be here. I'm gonna I'm gonna protect my clan and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shoot a house. But these guys coming through
Speaker 1: the door. So yeah, uh, And what happened is exactly well,
Speaker 1: what happened is because I knew the coup was coming.
Speaker 1: I was in the embassy with the tief. We knew
Speaker 1: it was coming. Next morning, I was locked in the
Speaker 1: embassy for five days. Pat was stuck in the house,
Speaker 1: and then we knew they were going to raid. I
Speaker 1: won't go into how we knew that the raid the
Speaker 1: houses in the neighborhood and one of my colleagues in
Speaker 1: the agency. I was able to reach him. He hustled
Speaker 1: over and through the dog and the five kids and Patton.
Speaker 1: They ended up in his house for a week. So
Speaker 1: SE's one very tough, tough lady, a very smart but
Speaker 1: the other operative word is and a supportive and uh,
Speaker 1: you know they used to stay behind every great man,
Speaker 1: but I would say today behind every spouse there's I mean,
Speaker 1: behind every successful person in my success of little ass.
Speaker 1: But whatever I was able to accomplish with this, I
Speaker 1: don't imagine I could have gotten it done without the
Speaker 1: unique personality of Pat. That's cool, and that's all about
Speaker 1: like rising to the occasion. Um getting back to you
Speaker 1: know better shot, I have to tread carefully with her
Speaker 1: getting back to the Iran constras stuff. But focusing now
Speaker 1: more on today. Before we brought Yawn, Jason and I
Speaker 1: were watching this Nikki Hayley speech about what's going on
Speaker 1: with the Iran nuclear deal and kind of the fear
Speaker 1: of where their nuclear program is, which is pretty far
Speaker 1: along compared to what a lot of people thought. I
Speaker 1: wanted to hear your take on the around nuclear deal
Speaker 1: and Iran's nuclear capabilities. You know, that's a very good question.
Speaker 1: I also, I think it's important to keep it side
Speaker 1: by side with North Korea as we think about things.
Speaker 1: So in the case of the of the Iran deal,
Speaker 1: I wasn't happy with it, Okay, I thought it was
Speaker 1: softened places there should have been a tougher negotiating. I'm
Speaker 1: not talking about right. I think it should have been
Speaker 1: a tougher negotiation, and that they we wanted it so
Speaker 1: much and relayed that we wanted so much, and Iranians
Speaker 1: are great negotiators. However, the fact that we're able to
Speaker 1: stall the program. I didn't give it an a. You know,
Speaker 1: most people there's an a for an a. You know,
Speaker 1: there's no so I said, look, it's a See its
Speaker 1: slowed down the program. You know, they don't have a
Speaker 1: nuclear weapon. It gives you time to work other things.
Speaker 1: And as and uh, you know, as you need a
Speaker 1: regime change, and how do you get a regime change
Speaker 1: while lifting some of the sanctions. Actually, over time, I
Speaker 1: believe allows more democratically focused. That may not be the
Speaker 1: right word, but people that are want a more open
Speaker 1: society there and pressures to build within this system. So
Speaker 1: today it looks like a better deal to me. Um,
Speaker 1: but right from the beginning, you know, it won't take
Speaker 1: them a year. I think a year would be not
Speaker 1: unrealistic until they're able to produce the first bomb. Now
Speaker 1: look at North Korea, at the speed with which they're moving.
Speaker 1: If we could cut it to the same deal, you know,
Speaker 1: a sea deal, and we could stop the forward movement. Okay,
Speaker 1: both places ned a regime change, and I'm not talking
Speaker 1: about going in and overthrowing them, you know with James Bond.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that both of those labies you really
Speaker 1: don't solve the problem, and they have a regime change,
Speaker 1: and now use things take time, lots of time, and
Speaker 1: consequently we need some sort of arrangement in North area
Speaker 1: that slows down the process. So I understand the shortcomings
Speaker 1: of the RAND deal. Asked a certain aspect that I
Speaker 1: found particularly distasteful, but it served a purpose. And I
Speaker 1: think people today in this world we live in, you know,
Speaker 1: you're either on one side or the other. It's very
Speaker 1: difficult to get you some balance where you can look
Speaker 1: at some of the good and bad. I put a
Speaker 1: newsletter out quarterly and I have a lot of fun
Speaker 1: doing it and with the help of my staff. But
Speaker 1: I find it's fascinating and maybe I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: doing something right because after people think I'm too soft
Speaker 1: on the administration, the other field group feels that we
Speaker 1: can wait too hard on it. Yeah, that is truly
Speaker 1: when you know you're doing something well because we experienced
Speaker 1: the same thing. It's soft rap. I feel like people say, oh,
Speaker 1: you guys love Trump, and then other times they'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: you guys are too tough on Trump, so you're doing
Speaker 1: the right I mean, look, I think part of you
Speaker 1: know c I A when you walk through the door.
Speaker 1: I mean they always show the stars, which are the
Speaker 1: heart and blood of and solo the people that have
Speaker 1: died carrying out the mission. But the other side is
Speaker 1: a very important manter for the organization. It's a quote
Speaker 1: from the Bible. Doubt that you could get it chiseled
Speaker 1: in the wall today, but back then, the quote from
Speaker 1: the Bible said you shall know the truth, and it
Speaker 1: will set you free. That's all that's on that wall,
Speaker 1: and that's CIA's mission. Some very smart group of people
Speaker 1: define this mission. Just give us the facts. Don't put
Speaker 1: any spin on it. Your job here is to get
Speaker 1: the facts, and you will. You know that you will
Speaker 1: be completing your mission, so you The CIA can't be
Speaker 1: pro Trump, anti Trump, liberal conservative and has to look
Speaker 1: like amery, and its job has to be developed people
Speaker 1: to think independently and can and can properly waiting and
Speaker 1: try and get balanced and retain and remain unpoliticized. It's
Speaker 1: not an easy task, but the tradition the agency is
Speaker 1: in there. I couldn't tell you the political affiliation I
Speaker 1: could guess people in the office, because it didn't it
Speaker 1: was unprofessional to look at any of the problems we
Speaker 1: were facing from from a domestic political point of view. Well,
Speaker 1: what you're saying, Seg is right into what I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you about. Um. You earlier in the interview,
Speaker 1: you said that it's not the CIA's job to create policy.
Speaker 1: And I feel like now more than ever, the CIA
Speaker 1: has become so politicized, with people in favor of the
Speaker 1: CIA or people anti CIA, A big split between Democrats
Speaker 1: and uh, and Republicans and you see all this stuff
Speaker 1: with James Comey, what do you think about the polarization
Speaker 1: and the political uh, politicization of the CIA? Now, ineen
Speaker 1: going into there's a macro issue, and that is our
Speaker 1: society is much more politicized than so many of my
Speaker 1: adult life. But there are differences among you know, when
Speaker 1: one looks at the military or the FBI or CIA.
Speaker 1: Now the FBI is going through it. I think it's
Speaker 1: going to be a very challenging period because of this
Speaker 1: investigation is getting very viburn. FBI guy or even a
Speaker 1: gallery guy in it today, I'd be worried about the
Speaker 1: image of the institution. When you get to c I,
Speaker 1: which I'm gonna, I want to talk to that with
Speaker 1: a much better sense of confidence of what I what
Speaker 1: I think we're looking at. I believe that during my
Speaker 1: time and it continues today, most of the people in
Speaker 1: c I A joined CIA for mission purposes. They do
Speaker 1: their job, they go in, they carry it, and they
Speaker 1: remain um loyal to I'm going to produce the best
Speaker 1: product they can that tells the story the way it is.
Speaker 1: The institutions itself has become a political over the years,
Speaker 1: has at different times been saj the political pressures externally,
Speaker 1: you know, the whether it was Chili crisis, the Church Commission,
Speaker 1: the Iran country of every but I mean at different
Speaker 1: points it as an institution becomes critical. But inside I
Speaker 1: believe the institution is largely a political. One of the
Speaker 1: things I always feel bad about my partners in State
Speaker 1: Department is that in State Department, hundreds of political employees
Speaker 1: come in every time there's a change to the top jobs.
Speaker 1: Mostly many of the ambassadorships go to political as political favors.
Speaker 1: It's amazing that the State Department is able to maintain
Speaker 1: its core, and I believe it has with that. The CIA,
Speaker 1: when the director comes out, it's very unusual that they
Speaker 1: come out with anything more than the general council and
Speaker 1: maybe two assistants. Though there was the Chief of Latin
Speaker 1: amer the chief of analysis for Russia that these are
Speaker 1: all career people. So the place is a career oriented
Speaker 1: places place, and it frowns on internally anybody being politicized.
Speaker 1: I will say that in the last few terms, um,
Speaker 1: I really think we would be better served that the
Speaker 1: CIA directors were less public and taking not taking public positions.
Speaker 1: In fact, I would go as far as I think
Speaker 1: we better be served that the was run by a
Speaker 1: career professional and we cease and desist from bringing external
Speaker 1: politically focused people into the agency. And I think that's
Speaker 1: true with the FBI the same thing. I think these
Speaker 1: are institutions that I think are better better served by
Speaker 1: by people that their career is focused on the institution
Speaker 1: and not on political parties. So that's it's not a
Speaker 1: common expression, and probably we were talking about them in
Speaker 1: the cafeteria when I was at GS twelve, So I
Speaker 1: do think in this criticized world, political leaderships of these
Speaker 1: institutions do bring more lightning to them. But the inside,
Speaker 1: I think the good news for our listeners is that
Speaker 1: inside and shoulder the shoulder the people in there, I
Speaker 1: think remain focused on serving their country and doing the
Speaker 1: best job they can. Well said, um, I was going
Speaker 1: to ask you tell us about your book Good Hunting
Speaker 1: and American Spymaster's Story. I'm sure a lot of people
Speaker 1: in the audience are gonna want to pick it up. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting. Again, I feel like the tumbleweed.
Speaker 1: You know. I'm now going to tell you how I
Speaker 1: accidentally got into the writing of a bug I mean
Speaker 1: the first time when when I left the agents, they
Speaker 1: had to lift my cover because at a certain point
Speaker 1: you're a public figure, so therefore you do damage by
Speaker 1: not saying the guys the c I a guy, so
Speaker 1: at a certain point it was public. But still when
Speaker 1: I came out into the private sector, and I ran
Speaker 1: a private sector intelligence company. But when I came out,
Speaker 1: I mean, people ask me what I just said, Oh,
Speaker 1: I worked in the US government. I didn't talk about
Speaker 1: what I did. So I went to my dentist, Dan
Speaker 1: Hype's and broke the chip to tooth, and you know
Speaker 1: it was a persistent guy said what what do you do?
Speaker 1: I say, I have a little company. And then he said, well,
Speaker 1: what did you do before? I work for the US government,
Speaker 1: So now what did you really do? And I said, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, what the hell and said, okay, I worked
Speaker 1: at SEA. Said that's what I tell everybody's a secret agent.
Speaker 1: That way, they don't ask me to look at your teeth.
Speaker 1: It says, well, you know, Sam Hypetz could say that
Speaker 1: he's a secret agent, maybe I can. So I went
Speaker 1: from barely being able to talk about it too eventually
Speaker 1: writing a book, and in the process I got a
Speaker 1: call one day saying, well, you know, we in the
Speaker 1: c I, I can't talk about Chili, but they're going
Speaker 1: to release all the documents. To be nice of somebody
Speaker 1: out there, would you mind if someone who's a Washington
Speaker 1: Post interview I said, now I'm going to serve my country. Well,
Speaker 1: that was like the first big jump into the public arena,
Speaker 1: and then I became a little by little season with
Speaker 1: the thought that Americans don't understand. There's not a good
Speaker 1: understanding of the CIA, and particularly on the action part,
Speaker 1: not the spying, but the Chili experienced, the run experience,
Speaker 1: Afghanistan experienced hunting after narcotics. So I thought, you know,
Speaker 1: there's so much of what I did was in the
Speaker 1: public domain, unlike what agent did you run late at night?
Speaker 1: So Good Hunting is about the action part. That you
Speaker 1: have the spying part and then you have the action part.
Speaker 1: And I was able to write it and has to
Speaker 1: go through the c I a not for whether they
Speaker 1: like what I'm saying, but whether there's any classified information.
Speaker 1: And I titled it. It took me three years to
Speaker 1: come up with the title. I point out with some
Speaker 1: idea of my i Q, but it's Good Hunting and
Speaker 1: it's the expression. It goes back to the the eighties and
Speaker 1: British Lord, and I think Kipling used a certain point,
Speaker 1: and it's instead of break a leg in show business
Speaker 1: or tally ho and the hunt, it's CIA people and
Speaker 1: their predecessor organizations. When someone goes out on a mission
Speaker 1: hunt for bin Landon, it's good hunting, and I think
Speaker 1: it captures a business part of his really going out
Speaker 1: there and hunting for information or today it's hunting for
Speaker 1: terrorists and for hunting for bad people that want to
Speaker 1: do damage to our country, either in cyber or somewhere else.
Speaker 1: So the book is about the action part. The second
Speaker 1: the one I'm working on now not to tip it off,
Speaker 1: because then I want, like fellow CIA start typing tonight
Speaker 1: and trying to get out of animate. It's about the
Speaker 1: intelligence part, and I think is a lot of material
Speaker 1: that I think it'd be good for Americans to know
Speaker 1: about the realities of spy cases. So I'm working on that.
Speaker 1: So it'll be the two major disciplines, good hunting and
Speaker 1: yet to be titled because that I want to give
Speaker 1: up the title just yet will be about the other
Speaker 1: aspect of working in the dark and meeting agents. That's great.
Speaker 1: We we gotta get you back on when that comes out.
Speaker 1: I gotta ask you about this. So you were just saying,
Speaker 1: how early on no one ever came out and said
Speaker 1: that they were former CIA and wrote books. And it's
Speaker 1: like a relatively new phenomenon. Uh. Interesting thing I have
Speaker 1: to ask you about. And I think Jason could kind
Speaker 1: of relate to this. Is every now and again there'll
Speaker 1: be a guy who comes out and says he's a
Speaker 1: Navy seal or you know, former marine, and they get
Speaker 1: outed with the CIA. It's a little different, and there's
Speaker 1: been quite a few cases of people going on Fox News,
Speaker 1: for example, and saying that they were former CIA. I mean,
Speaker 1: the one that sticks out in my mind is Wayne Simmons.
Speaker 1: Wayne Simmons was regularly on Fox News saying that he
Speaker 1: was a former CIA analyst. I believe Jack Murphy, our
Speaker 1: editor in chief, early on, way before this guy went
Speaker 1: to trial, said to me personally, he was like, I
Speaker 1: am positive, dude, this guy was never in the CIA.
Speaker 1: Sure enough, About two years later it comes out that
Speaker 1: his entire story was bullshit. But unlike when a Navy
Speaker 1: seal comes out there or Army ranger comes out there,
Speaker 1: You're not going to get out in public because the
Speaker 1: CIA is not going to come out and say this
Speaker 1: guy wasn't in the CIA. And the crazy thing with
Speaker 1: Simmons was that he was one of the people who
Speaker 1: advised the Iraq war. He had a quote from Donald
Speaker 1: Rumsfeld in the book, So you know, it wasn't it
Speaker 1: wasn't so strange that Fox News vouched for this guy
Speaker 1: and said, oh, yeah, it's former c I A, uh,
Speaker 1: what's you're feeling on on these type of guys. He
Speaker 1: wasn't the only one. I think the media is terbly
Speaker 1: negligent and they're under tremendous pressure. Becau say it to
Speaker 1: be tremendous pressure. I was watching one the other day
Speaker 1: and I want to pick on anybody, but it's it's
Speaker 1: it's It doesn't even say CIA. It says he was
Speaker 1: trained by C. Then he might have gone out there
Speaker 1: for a three week course or went for a seminar.
Speaker 1: And yet what they're doing is saying, this fellow you
Speaker 1: should listen to him because he received some unquantified, unqualified
Speaker 1: training at CIA. So I they have some amazing spokesman
Speaker 1: on some that were very junior um. You know, I'll
Speaker 1: come back and say a junior lieutenant and they're talking
Speaker 1: as if they were the director of CIA, and you know,
Speaker 1: the president ought to do this, they ought to do that,
Speaker 1: and you sit there that where the people there's a
Speaker 1: good New York word, these words. It's like hoodspot, you know,
Speaker 1: where are you know doing this? No shame? And I
Speaker 1: went in and watched Simmons tapes and there he is
Speaker 1: talking convincingly. Is I mean, I think he actually believes
Speaker 1: in his own online he talks himself into it. Eventually
Speaker 1: was arrested and convicted of fraud and a real estate deal,
Speaker 1: but he was on Fox I think forties, sometimes multiple times,
Speaker 1: and I think there's an obligation. We're seeing more of
Speaker 1: this in the news. I mean some big stories recently
Speaker 1: into print paper, print as well, where they're not fetting,
Speaker 1: you know, they're not fetting their sources. So the problem
Speaker 1: is the real CIA people, most of them leave undercover
Speaker 1: and they can't say a word, and the other group
Speaker 1: really doesn't want to be out there. They're talking and
Speaker 1: now I go on. But part of my not that
Speaker 1: I'm totally unique, but so much of what I did
Speaker 1: became public and I'm public. Um and I'm easy to vet.
Speaker 1: I mean it's coquecative, so you can figure out, you know,
Speaker 1: first of all, the book you can't have to have invetted.
Speaker 1: But the point is, I think they're just there's so
Speaker 1: much pressure and even if they got burned, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what they're doing anymore. And I years
Speaker 1: ago I warned a couple of the major networks that like,
Speaker 1: do you know what you're doing? And you know, it was,
Speaker 1: you know, the struggle, the shoulders and on they went,
Speaker 1: the pressures of the job. But I think it's a
Speaker 1: big disservice. But when someone you know starts talking about
Speaker 1: policy and and so on, I mean chances are they
Speaker 1: were nowhere near because at the policy w are a
Speaker 1: public figure and you should be able to google them,
Speaker 1: you know. So I'm I'm stunned by it and and annoyed.
Speaker 1: I tend I have a much lower tolerance nowadays. Something
Speaker 1: I find myself switching between channels and trying to find
Speaker 1: a station where it's a political Just go back to
Speaker 1: giving me the facts. It just give me the facts,
Speaker 1: don't the spin part and the yelling at each other's all.
Speaker 1: It's all very intellecturally, Um, dumbing down. Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 1: We try we try not to do that here. That's
Speaker 1: that's clear to take our interview. Who could accuse us
Speaker 1: to that? So I have a question. You know, we
Speaker 1: spoke about the politicization of government agencies. Um, how do
Speaker 1: you feel about the accusations on the Mueller Special Council
Speaker 1: as far as them being more bias or heavy on
Speaker 1: the the liberal side? Yeah, I must say, Um, now
Speaker 1: what do you feel about the You know, I think
Speaker 1: we might have been better served if we had taken
Speaker 1: some federal judge there was not a political appointee. I
Speaker 1: I think there was a rush there the name, and
Speaker 1: I think I think it looks it just has there's
Speaker 1: too much political atmospherics around. Now. I'm afraid that Mueller's
Speaker 1: investigation will be it's is credibility will be damaged, and
Speaker 1: then I think it's gonna where is it's going to leave?
Speaker 1: It's a mining newsletter, by the way, before, from the
Speaker 1: very beginning, I really doubt that much is going to
Speaker 1: come from this. The collusion. I don't see it, I
Speaker 1: don't hear it. I think, and I've been saying this
Speaker 1: all along, You're going to get some people nailed, but
Speaker 1: they're going to be nailed for what we would call
Speaker 1: a catholic of venial sin, you know. And there you
Speaker 1: get to Flynn and they'll get some uh you know,
Speaker 1: penalty of some sort. But you're We've spent all this
Speaker 1: time and the big pictures, what's happening to our relationship
Speaker 1: with Russia, what's happening to ourselves and how we deal
Speaker 1: with each other inside the Congress and the White House,
Speaker 1: and it's I mean, really, what are we doing here? Um?
Speaker 1: So I think it's going to be far less productive,
Speaker 1: and it's so politicized, and I think everybody it's a
Speaker 1: tar baby. Everybody is getting tar and him. I think
Speaker 1: Miller comes out somehow tarnished. Every person drug in around
Speaker 1: them as tarnish nobody. I'm trying to find somebody that
Speaker 1: looks good in the process. So uh if I thought
Speaker 1: there was something meaningful that would come out of it,
Speaker 1: but I'm driving in trouble finding that. So I wish
Speaker 1: they would gotten this done quickly before what I now
Speaker 1: see is the the the next several months, I think
Speaker 1: we're going to see a continuing sliding credibility. And I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that's that's good. I don't know where that
Speaker 1: leaves you at the end of the day, other than
Speaker 1: everybody bickering. The last thing I want to ask you about.
Speaker 1: You're currently working at the Arking Group, which you are
Speaker 1: the founding partner in. What work are you doing there
Speaker 1: for people interested? Well, when we first started standing the
Speaker 1: ark and myself as a prominent lawyer in New York,
Speaker 1: he felt that a number of his clients needed the
Speaker 1: type of information that we talked about earlier. Objective you know,
Speaker 1: spend and about it's bye to two things, information about
Speaker 1: people and about companies. And it's relatively easy and relatively
Speaker 1: the operative word to get information about people in United
Speaker 1: States and corporations if you're doing business. But if you're
Speaker 1: going to do business halfway around the world, you know,
Speaker 1: in the Middle East, in Egypt or China or Russia,
Speaker 1: I mean not many. There's not many platforms you can't count,
Speaker 1: there's no database system, and you say, you really need
Speaker 1: the old fashioned human sources. So I've build a career
Speaker 1: over the second career, over the past fifteen years identifying
Speaker 1: a network of people, and we're like a general contractor
Speaker 1: and we have this but I'm i hope. I'm not overstating,
Speaker 1: but I think it's what I feel. It's a wonderful
Speaker 1: network of people that are really good collectives, former intelligence
Speaker 1: people from different services, and news paper people and lawyers.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a whole world out there, and it's
Speaker 1: one of the things in the government that I felt
Speaker 1: I missed. You know, it's I hate to meant this,
Speaker 1: but there's a world out there that collects information. They
Speaker 1: don't consider it how to consider They need the information
Speaker 1: to go do a deal. So it's there's a rich
Speaker 1: hunting ground out there, and what I've tried to do
Speaker 1: is capitalize on that and give to the private sector
Speaker 1: equity grooves, banks, individuals information about about countries, but more importantly,
Speaker 1: more grand your information about specific people of specific companies
Speaker 1: and the problems are going to encounter in those countries.
Speaker 1: So I made a nice little business out of it,
Speaker 1: and it feels like old home, other than the Justice
Speaker 1: Department doesn't allow me to do anything that's untowards m hmm.
Speaker 1: It's awesome. Well, hey, we really appreciate coming on. You
Speaker 1: could visit the ark And Group at the ark And
Speaker 1: Group dot com, pick up the Jackson latest book. Good
Speaker 1: hunting and American Spymaster's story. You'd also follow Jack on
Speaker 1: Twitter at Jack Divine Underscore th G. I really have
Speaker 1: to say we appreciate giving an hour of your time here,
Speaker 1: letting us pick your brain. It's been a real honor,
Speaker 1: and we'd love to have you come back on, hopefully
Speaker 1: in studio, since we're both here in New York. Well,
Speaker 1: I would love to do that. And um, it's an
Speaker 1: honor to be able to talk to the cal audience
Speaker 1: you have in the so many people serving our country
Speaker 1: and now and in the past, and it's an honor
Speaker 1: to be able to share some time with them and
Speaker 1: to impart um, you know, a view of how the
Speaker 1: intelligence world operates and to sort of demystify some of it,
Speaker 1: because I think our citizens serve to understand it better
Speaker 1: and not just rely on on Hollywood. So thank you
Speaker 1: very much for the opportunity. Thank you once again, Jack
Speaker 1: for your ins on a lot of these topics that
Speaker 1: we covered. Appreciate it and I'm sure when you come back,
Speaker 1: hopefully it'll be Jack Murphy Man be prepared for him
Speaker 1: because he's gonna have a ton of questions. It's just mosh,
Speaker 1: But I can say that well, you appreciate it, and
Speaker 1: uh and this will be up tomorrow, thanks so much,
Speaker 1: and and really appreciate you going the full hour with
Speaker 1: us was great. Thank you, Thank you, Jack, Dude. I
Speaker 1: can't believe that he went the full hour with us.
Speaker 1: That was awesome. I would gladly go another hour with
Speaker 1: him if he comes back on with us, and it
Speaker 1: sounds like he will. I just feel like, I just
Speaker 1: feel like it was just a wide array of topics
Speaker 1: that he can speak on, you know, elaborately, because and
Speaker 1: like he said, you know, and I thought it was
Speaker 1: interesting that, you know, he the way he worded it
Speaker 1: was that he is out in the open now because
Speaker 1: fortunately for him, a lot of the situations he's been
Speaker 1: involved in, a lot of the milestones within the CIA
Speaker 1: that have been publicized he was a part of. He's
Speaker 1: able to talk about it now. So that's interesting. That's crazy, dude.
Speaker 1: This is the beauty of this pot cast to me,
Speaker 1: like this was a home run interview and I am
Speaker 1: going to talk some about the mainstream media, like who
Speaker 1: would you rather hear talk about these topics for an hour?
Speaker 1: Jack Divine, who is a true expert who has been
Speaker 1: there and done that, or do you want to hear
Speaker 1: Tommy Laren you know, like, dude, it's so and like
Speaker 1: this is what that's what you get when you turn
Speaker 1: on the mainstream media, and I know I'm gonna get shipped.
Speaker 1: You know, it's right wing and left wing. Like there's
Speaker 1: a lot of these people who have done absolutely nothing
Speaker 1: and they're speaking like they're experts. I remember, I'll tell
Speaker 1: you the prime example. I remember watching one of those
Speaker 1: Hannity panels and look, I know, like a lot of
Speaker 1: this audience loves Hannity. I've I've never met Sean Hannity,
Speaker 1: but just the panel itself, right, there was a panel.
Speaker 1: It was a bunch of lawyers. It was a bunch
Speaker 1: of talking heads, and there was Nick Irving up there
Speaker 1: all right, and they're asking questions about icence and blah blah,
Speaker 1: and all these talking heads who honestly don't know ship
Speaker 1: are the ones running their mouth. And like I'm like,
Speaker 1: go to Nick Irving. Nick Irving has been there and
Speaker 1: done that. I want to hear his take on this.
Speaker 1: I don't care about some lawyer. And uh so, you
Speaker 1: know that's the beauty of this podcast, Like we let
Speaker 1: a guy like Jack Devine go an hour with us
Speaker 1: and really give some insights. So I can't speak more
Speaker 1: highly if I'm having it super intriguing. How he can
Speaker 1: have an entire career after the CIA in somewhat of
Speaker 1: this similar environment, Like he's doing intelligence gathering and collecting
Speaker 1: for corporations. That's crazy. It's the same thing that Steve does.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, and I worked. I worked with him
Speaker 1: on a ground level. But to think that that is
Speaker 1: still that is it's something necessary for corporations. What the
Speaker 1: hell are you guys doing? It's crazy, But I mean
Speaker 1: it makes sense. I mean, you have these entire economies
Speaker 1: that you know, live and die by your intelligence, especially
Speaker 1: you know information as to you know what country is
Speaker 1: up and coming, Where should you open up a new
Speaker 1: bank or something. I mean, now that he said that,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it. Man, that's it's got to be
Speaker 1: a lucrative business. I had to ask him about that
Speaker 1: phony c I a think because it really is true.
Speaker 1: You know, like if you were watching Fox and you
Speaker 1: see some guy come out and say I'm a more
Speaker 1: sock instructor, you'll be out there in the public saying
Speaker 1: this guy is full of ship and the CIA. It's
Speaker 1: definitely a different scenario. Yeah, definitely, bro Um. So you
Speaker 1: don't actually know this. I've talked about it on the
Speaker 1: podcast with Jack and this is like throwing myself under
Speaker 1: the bus here. I actually knew Wayne Simmons and like
Speaker 1: I had contact with If you're looking at the cell phone,
Speaker 1: I have Wayne's number in here. Did he work on
Speaker 1: any capacity for the snow he was the Navy for
Speaker 1: a very short period of time. Uh No, he didn't do.
Speaker 1: He didn't too much at all for a very short
Speaker 1: period of time. But here's the crazy thing is he
Speaker 1: legitimately was an advisor on the war in Iraq because
Speaker 1: he was able to bullshit his way up to the top.
Speaker 1: When you have a blurb on your on your book
Speaker 1: written by Donald Rumsfeld saying that you're legit, You've been there,
Speaker 1: done that, people are going to take to say, Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe there's there's some uh you know, credibility to this,
Speaker 1: especially someone like Donald Runsfeld. Yeah, so I booked when
Speaker 1: when I was working for David Webb show, I've booked
Speaker 1: Wayne Simmons and I was told he was legit. I'm
Speaker 1: not able to vet if someone was in the CIA
Speaker 1: or not, you know, And it's the same at Fox, like,
Speaker 1: I don't hold them responsible. Um, you know, it would
Speaker 1: be great if they had someone there like a Jack Murphy.
Speaker 1: You could let these guys. But I will give Jack credit.
Speaker 1: Years before he came out, told me he was like, dude,
Speaker 1: don't book this guy. Don't have him on the show.
Speaker 1: He was not in the CIA. Sure enough, it comes out, like,
Speaker 1: and it's just so crazy to think that there's other
Speaker 1: guys out there because Jack's written about them. There's other
Speaker 1: guys out there who have written books who said I
Speaker 1: did all these secretive black ops and it turns out
Speaker 1: they didn't do it, didn't do and they have like
Speaker 1: flourishing careers. It's crazy. Yeah, interesting stuff. Um Man loved
Speaker 1: having this guy on. I'm really looking forward to having
Speaker 1: him back, um before we get out of here. As
Speaker 1: a reminder for all of those who are listening, for
Speaker 1: a limited time, you can receive a fifty percent discounted
Speaker 1: membership to soft Rep TV, our channel that offers the
Speaker 1: most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the most exciting
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Speaker 1: you need it to. Creates we've set in the past
Speaker 1: have included gear like custom knives, multi tools, fire starters,
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Speaker 1: We also have gift options available. That's great Club dot
Speaker 1: us and I should throw out there that we're getting
Speaker 1: the finishing Touches on the Vagas party, the team Room party.
Speaker 1: I'll let you guys know the details as soon as
Speaker 1: I do. Um. I know it's later than usual, this
Speaker 1: is just how it worked out. But if you're in
Speaker 1: the area, we'd love to see you there. Um oh.
Speaker 1: And earlier I did a Power of Thought with Brandon
Speaker 1: Levin Steve Ralston, and Brandon was talking about the team
Speaker 1: Room event we did with Jim West and I didn't
Speaker 1: know about Jim taking a pocket knife out of some
Speaker 1: guy's pocket having it up. Yeah. He told me it
Speaker 1: was some guy there and he took it out of
Speaker 1: his pocket and had it like to his throat within seconds. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we were. He was he was demonstrating like I don't
Speaker 1: know entry, entry techniques while you're at the bar or whatever.
Speaker 1: And you know he's coming in and he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: hitting me or whatever, you know, blocking and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: and then you know he kind of like glanced down
Speaker 1: and saw my pocket knife in my pocket. I'm I'm
Speaker 1: posing for him, Yeah, I'm posing for him to do
Speaker 1: whatever it is he's gonna do. And next you know,
Speaker 1: it's just like a quick second, he pulled it out
Speaker 1: of my pocket, spun me around and like put it
Speaker 1: to my throat. But he didn't open it or nothing.
Speaker 1: He just you know, held the handle to my throat.
Speaker 1: He goes, Hey, man, be careful where you keep your
Speaker 1: get you think that. I mean, like I said, we
Speaker 1: were demonstrating a specific moves. I wasn't even thinking about it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not something whatever here, do the arm
Speaker 1: bar on me or whatever you gotta do. But you know,
Speaker 1: whatever it was, um, Jim is amazing. Yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: something that I never thought about it. I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, what if I do get into a scuffle
Speaker 1: with somebody, this is kind of out there in the
Speaker 1: open for them to just take off of my my pocket,
Speaker 1: take out of my pocket because it's clipped into the
Speaker 1: inside of my pocket. And anyone who knows enough who
Speaker 1: know that to night, they could just two fingers pulled
Speaker 1: it out, you know. Jim, those weapons though, like no
Speaker 1: other one. When I see how fast he moves, it's
Speaker 1: pretty quick. Yeah, he's fucking fast man. Yeah, And and
Speaker 1: it's unsuspecting. You know, if someone saw him the straight
Speaker 1: they'd be like, oh, it's older guys him up. He'll
Speaker 1: tear him up in a heartbeat, like he's quick. I
Speaker 1: think it's just that that the condition response that he
Speaker 1: has already that I don't I don't even think he
Speaker 1: even realizes what he's gonna do at the moment, and
Speaker 1: he's that fast, like he'll just react to h an action. Yeah. Hey,
Speaker 1: so we appreciate you guys checking out this show. Um,
Speaker 1: please leave us a review on Apple Podcast. It helps.
Speaker 1: I think we're currently number four in the category and
Speaker 1: I last checked. Let's get us back up to number one.
Speaker 1: We need those reviews, so please leave a review. You
Speaker 1: could follow Jason on Instagram at j Delgado Rte on
Speaker 1: Twitter right at Bounty Hunter j D have it right.
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at oh
Speaker 1: no, no no no, I'm just on Twitter. I'm losing my
Speaker 1: mind here. You can follow me on Twitter at the
Speaker 1: in Scotto. I don't have an Instagram. You can follow
Speaker 1: the show, of course on Instagram and Twitter at soft
Speaker 1: Rep Radio. Next episode, Luis Carmuch Nice, that's gonna be
Speaker 1: nice to me, That's gonna be great. I mean, she
Speaker 1: fought in the first ever women's UF Seed Doubt against
Speaker 1: Rhonda Rousey, and there's just a lot of history there.
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to have her on H and I
Speaker 1: guess that wraps it up. Hey, thanks for listening to us. Guys,
Speaker 1: you've been listening to sulf Rep Radio. New episodes up
Speaker 1: every Wednesday and Friday for all of the great content
Speaker 1: from our veteran journalists. Join us and become a team
Speaker 1: room member today at soft rep dot com. Follow the
Speaker 1: show on Instagram and Twitter at self rep Radio, and
Speaker 1: be sure to also check out the Power of False podcast,
Speaker 1: hosted by Hurricane Group CEO and Navy Seals sniper instructor
Speaker 1: Brandon Webb.