Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff mom
Speaker 1: never told you, and today we're gonna revisit a classic
Speaker 1: episode about someone who's been in the news lately that
Speaker 1: you might have heard of, Taylor Swift. I was sort
Speaker 1: of a new Taylor Swift light fan. My ex boyfriend
Speaker 1: loved her, and it did rub off on me, especially
Speaker 1: when she would release a new music video, and they
Speaker 1: were always so epic and so much production work in them,
Speaker 1: and I was known to get drunk and talk about
Speaker 1: how cool they were and make people watch them. A
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, I faced what I called a
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift conundrum, and it wasn't really that at all.
Speaker 1: I just like having dramatic names to things. I had
Speaker 1: bought a ticket to one of her to reputation concerts
Speaker 1: in Atlanta like a year before it was scheduled to happen,
Speaker 1: and then I totally forgot about it and agreed to
Speaker 1: go film something for work that same weekend, and I
Speaker 1: wrestled four days with whether I should sell the tickets
Speaker 1: and travel to the filming location with the crew, which
Speaker 1: was out of state by the way, or go to
Speaker 1: the concert and wake up at three am the next
Speaker 1: morning and drive several hours by myself to the filming location.
Speaker 1: I was asking everyone what I should do, and finally
Speaker 1: I decided to go. So worth it. There were these
Speaker 1: light up wristbands that were tied and call it coded
Speaker 1: to the music. There were snakes that were coming out
Speaker 1: of the stage. No regrets, but yes, Taylor Swift is
Speaker 1: in the news again, and not for music or a
Speaker 1: beef with another pop star. She finally broke her political
Speaker 1: silence in an Instagram post and came out in support
Speaker 1: of Tennessee Democrats. Quote. In the past, I've been very
Speaker 1: reluctant to publicly voice my political opinions. I feel very
Speaker 1: different about that now. I always have and always will
Speaker 1: cast my vote based on which candidate will protect and
Speaker 1: fight for the human rights I believe we all deserved
Speaker 1: in this country. I believe in the fight for lgbt
Speaker 1: Q rights and that any form of discrimination based on
Speaker 1: sexual orientation or gender is wrong in all caps. She
Speaker 1: has over one hundred and twelve million followers on Instagram.
Speaker 1: By the way, in sixteen, who is Taylor Swift going
Speaker 1: to vote for? Was a top result on Google and
Speaker 1: the response has been very mixed to her making this
Speaker 1: political statement to say the least, and as you'll hear
Speaker 1: in this classic episode, in part because of Taylor Swift's
Speaker 1: political silence, her music has been popular among the alt right,
Speaker 1: a K fascist, and neo Nazis, and they have swiftly
Speaker 1: witches up on condemned her, going as far to say
Speaker 1: that her career is over. Donald Trump says he quote
Speaker 1: likes her music less now, which makes me like it
Speaker 1: about more. After her post on Sunday, voter registration spiked
Speaker 1: sixty five thousand registrations in twenty four hours. The spiking
Speaker 1: of Taylor Swift song pun related headlines went through the
Speaker 1: roof no end in sight, so we're just gonna have
Speaker 1: to put up with that for a little while. In
Speaker 1: light of all of this, we hope that you enjoy
Speaker 1: this episode on Taylor Swift's feminism. Hey, this is Emily,
Speaker 1: and this is and you're listening to stuff mom never
Speaker 1: told you. Today, we are so excited to be joined
Speaker 1: by Elisa Krissinger, executive producer over at Refinery nine, who
Speaker 1: hosts a awesome, fierce feminist podcast and video series called
Speaker 1: Strong Opinions Loosely Held. Thanks so much for tuning in
Speaker 1: today to help us talk through this very fraught subject. Alisa,
Speaker 1: We're so glad to have you. O hey, thanks so
Speaker 1: much for having me. I'm so excited to walk through
Speaker 1: this with you. Guys. So Alisa and I actually go
Speaker 1: way back. I guess I should say, Alisa, Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: and I go way back. Um. Alisa put together a fabulous,
Speaker 1: fabulous panel at south By Southwest last year all about
Speaker 1: celebrities and activism, and Taylor Swift came up quite a bit.
Speaker 1: The number one question that we left that panel with
Speaker 1: was who did Taylor Swift to vote for? Later on,
Speaker 1: I was on an episode of her really amazing show
Speaker 1: talking about Taylor Swift and all the ins and outs
Speaker 1: of who she is as a feminist, as an artist
Speaker 1: and all of that. So we really, Alisa, we really
Speaker 1: go way back when it to We do totally. And
Speaker 1: I think it kind of started when you posted that
Speaker 1: thing on Facebook about who your most problematic save was,
Speaker 1: and I scrolled through it and so many people said
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift exactly, And that was when we started this series.
Speaker 1: You may recall our lovely listeners. The first episode we
Speaker 1: did on Problematic Faves was with the One and Only
Speaker 1: Judge Judy, which was such a fun episode, and I
Speaker 1: loved putting that together. And I'm not gonna lie when
Speaker 1: I dropped in that Taylor Swift was my problematic fave,
Speaker 1: and so many of you agreed. I have been dragging
Speaker 1: my feet putting this episode together because I was seriously
Speaker 1: dreading it. Well, people love Taylor Swift. I love Taylor Swift,
Speaker 1: and I have to come out first and foremost by
Speaker 1: saying the reason problematic faves are hard is because you're
Speaker 1: trying to reconcile. And that's what we're gonna trying to
Speaker 1: do today with everybody here, how you can both respect
Speaker 1: and love the artistry of someone like Taylor Swift and
Speaker 1: hold him accountable totally. I think she represents a great
Speaker 1: example of how you can be both a fan of
Speaker 1: popular culture but a critic of it at the same time.
Speaker 1: Exactly what I think we should do today, as so
Speaker 1: many people are tuning into this thinking like, okay, walk
Speaker 1: me through this. I've I've seen the tweets. Have you
Speaker 1: seen these? Bridget to our Twitter handles saying I need
Speaker 1: you to unpack Taylor Swift for me because I have
Speaker 1: so many feels for her. So what I'd like to
Speaker 1: start with, is what about her do we love and respect?
Speaker 1: And what about her is seriously problematic and worthy of
Speaker 1: of breaking down? Does that sounds like a good place
Speaker 1: to start. That sounds like a good place to start.
Speaker 1: I just want to give a big caveat. I don't
Speaker 1: actually care for Taylor Swift, and I hope that something
Speaker 1: about this once and people didn't care for that opinion.
Speaker 1: You know what is my opinion. I don't have to
Speaker 1: like everybody. I don't care for Taylor Swift. Bridget is
Speaker 1: Bridgets coming out as anti Taylor Swift anti, I will
Speaker 1: go that far. I don't care for her. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's an important distinction. Okay at least? So where do
Speaker 1: you down on the Taylor Swift love a meter? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean I think that no one represents the resentment
Speaker 1: America has towards white women better than Taylor Swift, and
Speaker 1: I think that pushes me more towards a love and
Speaker 1: a hate. I think she's got a great opportunity to
Speaker 1: do something with the platform and power and privilege that
Speaker 1: she has, but she kind of hasn't. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm very lukewarm. I saw squarely. I think in between
Speaker 1: both of you. Okay, well this is good. They should
Speaker 1: make for a good conversation. Then I'm like sweating already,
Speaker 1: but this is good, So let me start here. And
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to position myself as the defender of
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. I'm just here to say she's like you are.
Speaker 1: Now I'm really sweating, um. But I do think that
Speaker 1: what I have recognized and putting this episode together is
Speaker 1: that it is very easy to want to look away
Speaker 1: when someone you are a fan of is doing some questionable,
Speaker 1: shady right, Like it is easy to catch yourself ignoring
Speaker 1: the bad because you want to vehemently and only support
Speaker 1: the good. And we're going to talk about today how
Speaker 1: we can hold those two truths at the same time,
Speaker 1: and why it's okay to have problematic faves just like
Speaker 1: Judge Judy, but why it's also really really important that
Speaker 1: we hold our celebrity idols accountable. So first and foremost,
Speaker 1: as an entrepreneur, I find her drive and her vision
Speaker 1: and the fact that she made this lifelong ambition of
Speaker 1: hers a reality and was very much central as a
Speaker 1: young girl really to positioning herself for the pop sensation
Speaker 1: she's become like she was very much in the driver's
Speaker 1: seat of her own career from a young age, and
Speaker 1: that to go way back to Taylor's origins, that's one
Speaker 1: of the things that really wins my respect in her case.
Speaker 1: I can definitely respect the idea that she was this
Speaker 1: young girl with a dream and she made that dream
Speaker 1: of reality. That's something that tails at those time got
Speaker 1: to give it up for that. I definitely applaud her
Speaker 1: for making that happen, and that's not something that's easy.
Speaker 1: Something that I've actually always liked about Taylor is that
Speaker 1: she's has a lot of control over her art and
Speaker 1: over her career. And so, you know, you see a
Speaker 1: lot of things in the media about young pop stars
Speaker 1: who kind of somebody else is driving all the shots
Speaker 1: and making all the calls and their label is being
Speaker 1: awful and they just put up with it. Taylor is
Speaker 1: not someone who does that. Right. At eleven years old,
Speaker 1: she convinced her mom to take her on a trip
Speaker 1: to Nashville where she could go door to door on
Speaker 1: Nashville record labels giving them a homemade CD demo no bites, right,
Speaker 1: so she got no traction from that, and at eleven
Speaker 1: years old, that's cute, Like Oh, a little girl with
Speaker 1: the dream, but the rejection that she experienced could have
Speaker 1: been a career ender for most eleven year old but
Speaker 1: not for Taylor. She at that point learned to play guitar,
Speaker 1: started writing her own songs I'm sure, bankrolled by her
Speaker 1: very well off parents, with a lot of assistance from professionals.
Speaker 1: But at fourteen years old, when our c A, one
Speaker 1: of the largest record labels in Nashville, gave her a
Speaker 1: development deal which was kind of like an investment for
Speaker 1: a year. I wasn't a full record deal, but it
Speaker 1: was like, let's fund your learning and growth and progress
Speaker 1: and see what happens. But at the end of the
Speaker 1: year they took a pass on her. We're not going
Speaker 1: to fund a record deal. Wanted to keep her on
Speaker 1: the label, but shelf her and she walked away from
Speaker 1: our ci A and at that same time convinced her
Speaker 1: entire family to relocate to Nashville for her career at
Speaker 1: fourteen years old. I mean that you've got to give
Speaker 1: it up for her. That I applaud her. I applaud her.
Speaker 1: I will give the caveat that. Luckily, she had the
Speaker 1: kind of family where relocating to a different city to
Speaker 1: support the artistic dream of your young daughter was a reality.
Speaker 1: Because I've heard many, many, many stories of like, oh,
Speaker 1: I've got my mixtape, my demo, I've been telling it,
Speaker 1: showing it to everybody, but that that same person doesn't
Speaker 1: have the means to do that, the story could go
Speaker 1: very differently. So I applaud that very very much. But
Speaker 1: I think it's very lucky that she had that kind
Speaker 1: of family support where that was possible. Totally. And to
Speaker 1: on that note to Bridget, I think you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of her brand has been built on being an outsider,
Speaker 1: but really she grew up on a Christmas tree farm. Um.
Speaker 1: She has this very ideal childhood, and not that we
Speaker 1: should be holding that against her, but it certainly helps
Speaker 1: to find and follow your dreams when you come from
Speaker 1: wealth and privilege. Both of her parents, UM were executives
Speaker 1: UM at banks, and she herself actually wanted to go
Speaker 1: into the banking industry before she found Before she found
Speaker 1: country music specifically, UM. I think that she was most
Speaker 1: inspired by crossover artists on the nineties like Faith Hill,
Speaker 1: she and I Twain and the Dixie Chicks, and then
Speaker 1: she changed her tune no pun intended and UM wanted
Speaker 1: to go in a different direction, which, again I applaud
Speaker 1: her hustle, just like you said, totally applaud her hustle,
Speaker 1: I mean, and bridget copy paste. Yeah, but it's a
Speaker 1: lot easier to do, and your parents have a ship
Speaker 1: ton of money, exactly, And she had parents who were
Speaker 1: willing to listen to her. So here's the thing. Yes,
Speaker 1: she comes from a bunch of privilege, financial privilege, the
Speaker 1: privilege of having two parents who were willing to support
Speaker 1: your insane dream at eleven years old or fourteen years old,
Speaker 1: and beyond that, parents who were willing to invest hard,
Speaker 1: earn money, time, energy, and effort in your pipe dream. Really,
Speaker 1: and yet, at the same time, being wealthy does not
Speaker 1: make you talented. Being wealthy and privileged does not make
Speaker 1: you ambitious, and it sure as hell doesn't make it
Speaker 1: a guaranteed that At a showcase she had in Nashville
Speaker 1: at fourteen years old, Scott borshetta who had just left
Speaker 1: another huge record label, I believe Universal, He approached her
Speaker 1: and said, so, the good news is I want to
Speaker 1: sign you for a record deal. The bad news is
Speaker 1: I don't have a record label. You would be the
Speaker 1: first person. So she took a chance on him, and
Speaker 1: three years later her record sales topped seven million. Seven
Speaker 1: million three years later, that's hugely impressive. And just to
Speaker 1: go back for a second, I think the point that
Speaker 1: I'm making is that both things can be true. It
Speaker 1: can be true that she's ambitious and talented but also
Speaker 1: had a lot of help and was very lucky and
Speaker 1: had supportive, privileged parents, and that was also a very
Speaker 1: influential for her success. And so I'm not saying that, oh,
Speaker 1: the only reason why she did that is because she's
Speaker 1: rich and her parents are supportive and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: Obviously not because you have to have talent, right, So
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, she does have talent.
Speaker 1: I think that's clear. So I just think it's possible
Speaker 1: that both things exactly exactly. And that's part of what's
Speaker 1: challenging about being a fan of hers and hearing the critics.
Speaker 1: It's like, yes, those things are both true. Can we
Speaker 1: acknowledge that they're both present? The other thing that's undeniable
Speaker 1: is that her songs are hella catchy. In fact, Okay,
Speaker 1: putting reputation aside for a second, because we all have
Speaker 1: very strong opinions on reputation. Her latest album, which we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about further, but there was an SNL skit
Speaker 1: that I think put it perfectly that was called Swift Mean,
Speaker 1: and it was a commercial kind of like for drama
Speaker 1: mine for sudden onset of vertigo induced by the fact
Speaker 1: that you're jamming out to a song at the club
Speaker 1: and then you realize it's by Taylor Swift, and you're like, what,
Speaker 1: I'm a grown ass woman and I love Taylor Swift.
Speaker 1: Girl can write a song and it's so perfect because
Speaker 1: it's hilariously fraught in that you love the music and
Speaker 1: then when you realize it's by who Taylor Swift? That album,
Speaker 1: That last album really reached across the age spectrum and
Speaker 1: I think got a lot of people on board with
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift's music. What do you think, Alisa, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think she's really good at what she does. She's a
Speaker 1: great artist, and no one can deny that. I think
Speaker 1: that we all want to make sure that our politics
Speaker 1: match our popular culture, So I think in terms of
Speaker 1: popular culture, she's awesome. Had it. She knows the game.
Speaker 1: She plays it really well when it comes to making
Speaker 1: a product that people can't get out of their heads, right,
Speaker 1: And that's what her role as a pop star is,
Speaker 1: so totally a plus in that category for sure. So
Speaker 1: I'm not the biggest fan of her music, but you know,
Speaker 1: I love pop music. I love pop songs. And one
Speaker 1: of the things I love the most about pop music
Speaker 1: is that it doesn't even matter if it's a genre
Speaker 1: that you like or an artist that you like. You
Speaker 1: when you hear a perfect pop song, you know what's
Speaker 1: a perfect pop song, right, So, like when you hear
Speaker 1: Katy Perry's Teenage Dream, like, you know, whether you like
Speaker 1: Katy Perry or not, whether you like that kind of
Speaker 1: music or not, you know it's a perfect pop song.
Speaker 1: And so I think kind of like what at LASTA
Speaker 1: was just saying, she's so good at creating these perfect
Speaker 1: pop songs as a as a product, and that even
Speaker 1: if you don't like Taylor Swift, you don't like her music,
Speaker 1: you listen to something like shake It Off, and you
Speaker 1: know that's a perfect pop song, right like it just
Speaker 1: it doesn't like like it's undeniable. So I will say,
Speaker 1: I mean, even though I'm not her biggest fan of musically,
Speaker 1: I can recognize that she really knows that she's doing
Speaker 1: when it comes to crafting a marketable, perfect well crafted
Speaker 1: pop song. And really what's interesting is that she came
Speaker 1: up in country, right. She came up in the country world,
Speaker 1: and in anyways broadened the genres reached by writing teenage
Speaker 1: love songs really about high school era heartbreak that popularized
Speaker 1: country music amongst suburban teenage girls for the first time,
Speaker 1: really expanding the demographic that the industry was able to reach.
Speaker 1: That was extraordinary at first. Then she transitioned into pop
Speaker 1: made her into a different kind of artist. She sort
Speaker 1: of redefined herself in the public eye, which is not
Speaker 1: an easy thing to do. And beyond that, her tour,
Speaker 1: I think her tour on record was some of the
Speaker 1: most interesting artistic choices that I've ever seen an artist make. Notably,
Speaker 1: she featured other really incredible artists and sort of introduced
Speaker 1: her fandom to other artists across genres, people like pit
Speaker 1: Bull and Charlie XCS, Alison Krausse, the Band, Perry Whiz Khalifa,
Speaker 1: John Legend, Mary J. Blige. She was, in so any
Speaker 1: raise generous with how she proceeded in nine. Whether you
Speaker 1: see it as being crafted in a strategic sort of
Speaker 1: marketing standpoint or as an altruistic move I think it
Speaker 1: can be both at the same time as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I would almost push back on some of
Speaker 1: those because I feel like, if you have an icon
Speaker 1: like Mary J. Blage on your album, you're not doing
Speaker 1: her the favor. She's doing you favor. Right there are
Speaker 1: people I'm like, yeah, like Taylor wasn't like I'll give you,
Speaker 1: I'll do this a favor for you, Mary, Like, that's true.
Speaker 1: She's a peak popularity to Also on the nine tour,
Speaker 1: I think it's important to call out that she made
Speaker 1: I think Apple Um she did a takeover of the
Speaker 1: Apple Store, so everything featured her branding, right. Like, from
Speaker 1: a business perspective, she's been really good at marrying capitalism
Speaker 1: with artistic expression. Down to her issue with Spotify, which
Speaker 1: is that they want they needed to pay artists more.
Speaker 1: She's taken up these causes that do allow her to
Speaker 1: spress herself in the way she wants to express herself,
Speaker 1: make the product she wants to make while also making bank,
Speaker 1: and that's hard to do. People have been trying to
Speaker 1: do that since the dawn of time. So I feel like,
Speaker 1: in a way, you know, she has mastered that with
Speaker 1: n specifically, but throughout her career as an artist totally.
Speaker 1: And then the last big notable mentioned I have to
Speaker 1: acknowledge in terms of her artistry before we take a
Speaker 1: quick break, is her use of social media, especially on
Speaker 1: the platform Tumbler, was really kind of extraordinary and how
Speaker 1: she interfaced with her fans from a young age, from
Speaker 1: the beginning of her career. Yeah, I'm actually consistently impressed
Speaker 1: with her youth of social media even now. Even now,
Speaker 1: you can find her leaving cute comments on fans posts
Speaker 1: about her. People will post like, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: love Taylor Swift, and she'll comment, oh my god, Hi,
Speaker 1: it's Taylor. And you know, I actually genuinely believe that
Speaker 1: that's not an assistant or a social media manager. I
Speaker 1: believe that is a percent Taylor. And so I'm someone
Speaker 1: who loves like memes and the Internet. She's shown herself
Speaker 1: to be someone who's very read in on those things.
Speaker 1: If you've ever seen that iconic Tumbler post where it's
Speaker 1: a picture of Taylor Swift and the the comment says,
Speaker 1: this is my friend Becky who died after using marijuana,
Speaker 1: and someone comments, no, that's Taylor Swift. And then the
Speaker 1: other comments says, no, it's Becky. There's a picture of
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift wearing a shirt that says no, it's Becky.
Speaker 1: So I like the idea that Taylor Swift knows what
Speaker 1: the chatter is about her on places like Tumbler and
Speaker 1: Instagram and plays into it in a way that I
Speaker 1: think it's really clever and funny and dare I say cool.
Speaker 1: I never thought I would hear myself saying that I
Speaker 1: think Taylor Swift is cool. But that is cool being
Speaker 1: read in on what the internet is saying and knowing
Speaker 1: how to wink, wink, not not at it. That is
Speaker 1: a cool thing totally. I mean, I think what she
Speaker 1: gives to teenage girls and young women in particular is
Speaker 1: validation that they're not crazy, that they're not insane, that
Speaker 1: they can have feelings and feel certain ways, and participate
Speaker 1: in social media, on social platforms with each other, talking
Speaker 1: to each other in a language of popular culture that
Speaker 1: they we all understand and we all speak. She gets that,
Speaker 1: and she talks back about language, and I think that
Speaker 1: that's really valuable. Oh. I love how you put that
Speaker 1: that she she speaks in that language, where as someone
Speaker 1: who grew up on and on the internet late at night,
Speaker 1: on MySpace and message boards and all that. Having someone
Speaker 1: as a famous as Taylor Swift speaking in that language
Speaker 1: is powerful, particularly when you're a young girl, when you're
Speaker 1: when you feel like all the things that you're doing
Speaker 1: online are like geeky or nerdy or stupid or weird
Speaker 1: or whatever. Having someone as famous and beautiful and influentialist
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift say that's okay, and I'm going to speak
Speaker 1: back at you with that language is so powerful. She
Speaker 1: brings her fans into the process in a way that
Speaker 1: I thought was really interesting, especially she turned some of
Speaker 1: her online conversations into in person invitations for listening parties.
Speaker 1: Of course she used that to sort of build buzz,
Speaker 1: make her swift ease feel very spec shoal and in
Speaker 1: so many ways it married true online to offline organizing too.
Speaker 1: Why you did not go there? I just did go
Speaker 1: there too. It marries that with marketing. She I mean,
Speaker 1: she totally commercialized her fandom, but she did in a
Speaker 1: way that is textbook organizing. I like it. Where you
Speaker 1: she It is sort of like she made these little
Speaker 1: organized the little Taylor Swift organizers. Yeah, I haven't thought
Speaker 1: of it that way, but that is something. There's something
Speaker 1: to that, and I don't see anyone else doing that.
Speaker 1: I mean, she in many ways like has pioneered that
Speaker 1: fan interaction in a way that whether you believe it's
Speaker 1: genuine or not, in my opinion, does not matter because
Speaker 1: she made her fans feel like it was genuine. She
Speaker 1: certainly makes it seem like she's being genuine about it
Speaker 1: and she's making bank at the same time. Like you
Speaker 1: were saying, a Lisa, it can be both. Question. Who
Speaker 1: do you think has more of abbid fans, Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: or the bay Hive? Beyonce? Oh, I don't know, Beyonce. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I might say Beyonce too, because Taylor's fans are they're
Speaker 1: really really right or dive for Taylor, but the bay
Speaker 1: hid like will take people down like they're there. They
Speaker 1: are no joke. I just feel like you can be
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift and even Taylor Swift bows down to the
Speaker 1: Queen Bear, you know what I mean. I like that.
Speaker 1: I feel like there's just no comparison. Also from the artist.
Speaker 1: I mean, can we just say it, it's amazing to
Speaker 1: have two artists like Taylor Swift and Beyonce's Lemonade coming
Speaker 1: up in the same We're like in a very special time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we're in a special time for women in
Speaker 1: pop music because I think so long we've been told
Speaker 1: that when a woman is a pop artist, that she's
Speaker 1: just frivolous, it's abot her boyfriend's blah blah blah. But
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be in a time where we are
Speaker 1: understanding and appreciating that as art. So I don't want
Speaker 1: to make it seem like I don't think that about
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. I think that Night nine was a piece
Speaker 1: of art, and I think people recognize that asked that,
Speaker 1: and I think that's the way it should be. Do
Speaker 1: you think Taylor how to galvanize her fans and organize
Speaker 1: them through specific tactics, whether real or a marketing campaign.
Speaker 1: Do you think that she had to organize those young
Speaker 1: women into segments of her fans or like fandoms because
Speaker 1: she's a female artist and all that female fan labor
Speaker 1: usually goes towards younger male artists, and it's something that
Speaker 1: we haven't maybe seen so much of or have a
Speaker 1: model or business model for young female fans supporting a
Speaker 1: young female artist. I actually think there's something to that idea,
Speaker 1: because when you think about organized fandom right where it's
Speaker 1: fan clubs and people writing letters and sending emails and
Speaker 1: having meetups and all of that things that involve a
Speaker 1: lot of labor and in real life work, you really
Speaker 1: do see a lot of that for boy bands and
Speaker 1: artists who are young men. And so I actually do
Speaker 1: think it's interesting that Taylor Swift hasn't been able to
Speaker 1: generate that same level of in real life connection and
Speaker 1: engagement with young fans being a young woman, because you
Speaker 1: really don't see that often. I don't know I see
Speaker 1: it broken down in gender as much as I see
Speaker 1: it as in terms of the shifting nature of media.
Speaker 1: Because of social media, the ability to be more in
Speaker 1: control of your fandom has never been greater. But now
Speaker 1: there are things like record labels and book publishers who
Speaker 1: are trying to redefine the value that they bring to
Speaker 1: an artist like Taylor Swift. The label wasn't going to
Speaker 1: organize her fans for her. She being the kind of
Speaker 1: control freak that I think she might be over her image,
Speaker 1: over her brand, over her creative control, took the reins
Speaker 1: on that department just as much as she did artistically,
Speaker 1: and so I think that was a really wise decision
Speaker 1: on her part that she didn't have to make, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean Again, I think it's an example
Speaker 1: of her business savvy. I totally agree on that. And
Speaker 1: I also think that it takes for thought and respect
Speaker 1: for young women and the power that comes with female
Speaker 1: fandom to be able to say, let me, let me
Speaker 1: get a hold on this, let me modify it. Um.
Speaker 1: Not that obviously male artist young male artists haven't done
Speaker 1: the same thing. From the Beatles, you know, all the
Speaker 1: way to Justin Bieber, like, young women are always ahead
Speaker 1: of the curve. They're always predicting trends. Um. Look it's
Speaker 1: not chat for example, um all that stuff young girls predict.
Speaker 1: And I think that she harnesses that power again, that
Speaker 1: understanding of young women, and just turned it in her favor. Again,
Speaker 1: not saying that that's a good or bad thing. Actually
Speaker 1: think it's a great thing because she respects that female
Speaker 1: labor and it's like I see you, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to make something for you. I think that's absolutely right.
Speaker 1: In fact, it kind of sounds like you're talking about
Speaker 1: the concept of a squad, which I want to dive
Speaker 1: into after we take a quick break, will be right
Speaker 1: back after a word from our sponsors. So we're back
Speaker 1: and we are talking through one of many people's most
Speaker 1: problematic fast faive and that is Taylor Swift. Why we
Speaker 1: love her, why she's a little problematic, and hope she
Speaker 1: can be better. And we want to tackle this idea
Speaker 1: of squad power. And I was actually really excited to
Speaker 1: see Taylor go from writing about boys primarily to defining
Speaker 1: herself by her girlfriends. I thought it was pretty exciting
Speaker 1: to see the era of strong, powerful women being championed.
Speaker 1: And yet there are some totally legitimate critics about her
Speaker 1: use of squad at least. So what do you think
Speaker 1: about Taylor and the era of squad? I think the
Speaker 1: era of the squad illustrated that Taylor could really make
Speaker 1: a career out of both putting women down and supporting them.
Speaker 1: So she started her career, you know, really again in
Speaker 1: the country music department again, even though she came from Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: Um was really able to ride that wave of country music.
Speaker 1: But a lot of the songs during that time we're
Speaker 1: kind of putting women down. UM, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you guys sample songs that she really went from a
Speaker 1: country music star from our song, which was a popular
Speaker 1: favorite if you listen to it, it's going to be
Speaker 1: stuff in your head for three days to pop star
Speaker 1: which was shake it Off, which we all know and
Speaker 1: I'm sad to admit with my ring tone for like
Speaker 1: three months. Um. And she really did go from putting
Speaker 1: women down from Better Than Revenge, where she compares um,
Speaker 1: a woman who's an actress to her skills on a mattress.
Speaker 1: You can hear that that rhyme. That's probably intentional, And
Speaker 1: so she goes from putting women down to embracing them
Speaker 1: in the squad. So it's just it's it's hard to
Speaker 1: watch this commodification of feminism happen through the squad, Like
Speaker 1: you can't just put women down and build your career
Speaker 1: up on that while also surrounding yourselves with a bunch
Speaker 1: of women who you hope to exemplify parts of your
Speaker 1: identity on like look here's Cam and look, I'm kind
Speaker 1: of indie, you know, here's Lina Dunham. So I also
Speaker 1: have that kind of like writer least side of me.
Speaker 1: I guess you can do it because she did. But
Speaker 1: I think the backlash to the squad illustrated that it's problematic.
Speaker 1: The squad of itself is a problematic phase and to
Speaker 1: quote bridget Todd, how many people are in this squad? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I wasn't a big fan of the squad as I think,
Speaker 1: you know, Alisa, I just think that squad to me
Speaker 1: seems like it's an automatically exclusive thing, right, So if
Speaker 1: you got a squad, my immediate first thought is who's
Speaker 1: included and who's excluded, one of the ins and outs
Speaker 1: of the squad. I also didn't love that people gave
Speaker 1: her all this credit for coming up with the idea
Speaker 1: of squad, when in fact, the term squad has had
Speaker 1: roots and black and hip hop communities since forever. Like
Speaker 1: Taylor Sipt did not invent the idea of squads and
Speaker 1: squatting up. Those have been in hip hop songs for
Speaker 1: a very long time. And that I didn't love seeing
Speaker 1: how when she started saying squad and squad goals, it
Speaker 1: became a thing, and it just seemed like another way
Speaker 1: that she was able to put her sort of shiny
Speaker 1: white girl branding on something that already existed. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: she never gave any credit for not inventing it. She
Speaker 1: did pularize it, but she's not. It's not like she said,
Speaker 1: f y, I historically this is uh, you know, long
Speaker 1: bed of thing in black culture and a hip hop
Speaker 1: and I'm squatting up now and that's exciting you should do.
Speaker 1: There was no acknowledgement of that. I definitely think more culturally,
Speaker 1: we associated the idea of squad with Taylor. Whether or
Speaker 1: not that was something that is on us or on her,
Speaker 1: I think it's a good question, but it was just
Speaker 1: something that I couldn't shake it off feeling a little
Speaker 1: bit icky about. I think you're totally spot on. It
Speaker 1: also felt triggering for a lot of women who were
Speaker 1: bullied by women because the click culture, Like if she
Speaker 1: called it click, which who did that? Kanye being with
Speaker 1: my click? Right, Yeah, that's Kanye and jay Z. It
Speaker 1: really reminded you of that sort of caddy, this girl
Speaker 1: culture of high school or middle school, where a pack
Speaker 1: of roaming best girlfriends could be vicious. Yeah, a pack
Speaker 1: of roaming, blue eyed, leggy, beautiful, popular, powerful girls. Honestly,
Speaker 1: sometimes I feel like the only reason I don't like
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift it's because she reminds me of every popular
Speaker 1: all from my high school who I was legitimately afraid of, right,
Speaker 1: And at the same time, she's playing the outsider dork
Speaker 1: card like I'm just I don't belong just like you,
Speaker 1: and we're like, okay, shut up, you're perfect, you know,
Speaker 1: like just own it, you know what I mean. That's
Speaker 1: the frustration. I honestly going back to that, I remember
Speaker 1: finding out that Taylor Swift drove like a luxury convertible
Speaker 1: when she was in high school, and that was the
Speaker 1: first time I realized, Oh, this persona that she had
Speaker 1: built early on in her career, where you know, she's
Speaker 1: got the curly, frizzy hair and the glasses and I
Speaker 1: am so nerdy. It's like, you're if you're driving a
Speaker 1: car like that in high school, come on, like, we
Speaker 1: all know, we all know what those social markers mean
Speaker 1: and what they don't mean. And I just saw her
Speaker 1: adopting social markers that were had nothing to do with
Speaker 1: her actual lived experience. And I remember the first time
Speaker 1: that those two things came in conflict. Something about finding
Speaker 1: out that she drove a luxury convertible car in high
Speaker 1: school just blew my mind and blew the whole thing
Speaker 1: wide open. But she probably went to a school where
Speaker 1: everybody did, and so she could somehow still be an
Speaker 1: outsider dork. I mean, I'm not saying she was or wasn't,
Speaker 1: but in my high school, that would not have made
Speaker 1: you an outsider dork. Now, there's one other thing we
Speaker 1: have to talk about Taylor related that I actually thought
Speaker 1: was a pretty awesome thing that she did, and that
Speaker 1: was her outspoken, courageous advocacy on sexual assaults and really
Speaker 1: standing up for victims of sexual assault, not only through
Speaker 1: pursuing her own case, which was really a counter suit
Speaker 1: but let's let's talk about that more in a second,
Speaker 1: but also her support of Kesha, who we know has
Speaker 1: also been really abused by her own record label and
Speaker 1: her own producer who she's accused of assault. Now, Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift did not need to go through the costly, time
Speaker 1: consuming and probably very triggering process of taking this jerk
Speaker 1: to court, and she didn't even go out of her
Speaker 1: way to sue this guy. She actually countersuit. So this guy,
Speaker 1: David Mueller, is like a DJ in Denver who, during
Speaker 1: a fan meet and greet she says, assaulted her right.
Speaker 1: She says that he stuck his hand up her skirt
Speaker 1: and grabbed her ass during a fan meet and greet.
Speaker 1: She didn't sue him, but he sued her because he
Speaker 1: ended up getting fired because she made sure that his
Speaker 1: boss knew what had gone down. He got fired, and
Speaker 1: he was suing Taylor Swift and her manager and parent
Speaker 1: for back pay that he lost due to losing his job.
Speaker 1: And to me, I would be like, oh, hell no,
Speaker 1: I'm taking this what a Exactly he said that she
Speaker 1: falsely accused him of assault, which is like, how much
Speaker 1: huspah does it have to take to actually assault someone
Speaker 1: and then sue them for accusing you of assault and
Speaker 1: having lost your job? That's like, just think about the
Speaker 1: audacity of doing that to someone like Taylor Swift. So
Speaker 1: he was suing for two point nine eight million in damages.
Speaker 1: She countersued for one dollar and one this past August.
Speaker 1: So I actually have nothing but respect for Taylor in
Speaker 1: this regard. I have nothing kudos to her. I can
Speaker 1: only imagine how many a young women out there who
Speaker 1: have dealt with sexual assault, who have been told it's
Speaker 1: their fault? What are you wearing? All of that nonsense
Speaker 1: that we tell survivors of sexual assault and sex crimes
Speaker 1: Taylor would have none of it. And I can't imagine
Speaker 1: what it must feel like to be a young survivor
Speaker 1: of sexual assault and watch this. I applaud her for this.
Speaker 1: This is this is what I'm talking about. I think
Speaker 1: that when Taylor Swift uses her platform to take a stand,
Speaker 1: it can reverberate through the nation, through the world. And
Speaker 1: I think somebody out there is going to have watched
Speaker 1: that trial and watched how she didn't back down, didn't
Speaker 1: allow herself to be shamed, didn't allow herself to be
Speaker 1: victim blamed, and said no, something illegal happened to me,
Speaker 1: And I am going to have my justice. Somebody out
Speaker 1: there is watching that, and they're gonna go report or
Speaker 1: they're gonna go get their justice. They're gonna hold somebody accountable.
Speaker 1: And I think I have This is what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: She has this platform where she can really do so
Speaker 1: much good when it goes right. I think with Taylor Swift,
Speaker 1: it goes really, really, really right. Alsa, what do you think.
Speaker 1: I thought it was really well timed because it happened
Speaker 1: I believe in August or September, late August early September,
Speaker 1: during back to school, and that's the month where obviously
Speaker 1: students are going back to school and on campus rape
Speaker 1: and sexual assault is usually the highest. So I thought
Speaker 1: it came at a nice time for her to have
Speaker 1: that message of saying, look, it's totally inappropriate to be
Speaker 1: touched in this way. I think post Weinstein, now it's
Speaker 1: a really interesting It's really interesting to look back at
Speaker 1: Taylor's case post Weinstein and see how she in a
Speaker 1: way helps set the stage for women to start calling
Speaker 1: this gross behavior within their industry out on a national stage.
Speaker 1: So I applaud that. Do I think she was using
Speaker 1: it a little bit to set the ground or set
Speaker 1: the stage for her new album. Yeah, but I wouldn't
Speaker 1: put it past her as a celebrity to want to
Speaker 1: stay relevant at any cost. Yeah. I think you're spot on.
Speaker 1: And this is, like Bridget you were saying earlier, an
Speaker 1: example of how powerful Taylor can be when she wants
Speaker 1: to be an advocate. In a statement following the trial,
Speaker 1: Swift actually acknowledge the symbolism behind her win and in
Speaker 1: doing so, for the first time that I've read, really
Speaker 1: called out her own privilege in a way that really
Speaker 1: made me excited and think, Okay, Taylor, you're on the
Speaker 1: right track, like maybe we can see more of this
Speaker 1: in the future. From her, she wrote, I want to
Speaker 1: acknowledge the privilege that I benefit from in life, in society,
Speaker 1: and in my ability to shoulder the enormous cost of
Speaker 1: defending myself in a trial like this. She continued, my
Speaker 1: hope is to help those whose voices should also be heard. Therefore,
Speaker 1: I'll be making donations in the near future to multiple
Speaker 1: organizations that help sexual assault victims defend themselves. This is
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that's going to get me and
Speaker 1: a Tailor Swift concert row Rocket a red lip singing
Speaker 1: along like I love it. Like if I could use
Speaker 1: this as a case study for how to be an advocate,
Speaker 1: how to how to show others how to be advocates,
Speaker 1: I would. And I just think that what she did
Speaker 1: was so brave and so great and so right, and
Speaker 1: it just really goes to show the immensive power that
Speaker 1: someone like Taylor Swift has and his whole lawsuit. And
Speaker 1: this great statement came almost a year after she donated
Speaker 1: two dollars to KESHA, two days after a New York
Speaker 1: judge denied Kesha a court injunction that would have allowed
Speaker 1: her to record new music outside of her record label,
Speaker 1: So the courts don't always rule in women's favor on
Speaker 1: this issue, even if you're a famous pop star. And
Speaker 1: whether she's winning and making a really profound statement like
Speaker 1: that or watching a colleague lose and throwing some money
Speaker 1: her way as a token of support and appreciation, this
Speaker 1: issue is an example of Taylor walk in the feminist walk,
Speaker 1: and we really need to see her do that in
Speaker 1: a more intersectional way. Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm
Speaker 1: sure that publicly supporting Kesha over Dr Luke probably does
Speaker 1: have negative connotations for Taylor, even somebody as powerful as
Speaker 1: she is in the industry. And I think that the
Speaker 1: fact that she did it anyway shows sometimes being a
Speaker 1: feminist is hard, but you do it anyway. And I
Speaker 1: just I think that what she did is exactly what
Speaker 1: we're talking about when it comes to walking the walk.
Speaker 1: When we come back from this next break, we're going
Speaker 1: to talk through some of the ways she's not always
Speaker 1: walking the walk, some of the ways she can walk
Speaker 1: that walk a lot better, especially when it comes to
Speaker 1: race and intersectional feminism and how we hope that we
Speaker 1: can expect more of this kind of privilege acknowledgment and
Speaker 1: real feminism on display from the one and only Taylor Swift.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, and we're back, and it's time.
Speaker 1: It's time to talk through some of the biggest issues
Speaker 1: that folks rightfully have with Taylor Swift. And let's start
Speaker 1: with this concept of her use of the white victim.
Speaker 1: She sort of plays this white victim car which to me,
Speaker 1: I think the narrative began around the Kanye v m
Speaker 1: A situation when she received the award over and above
Speaker 1: Queen b who we've already described and sort of as
Speaker 1: the queen of pop. So Taylor gets on stage to
Speaker 1: accept her award, Kanye West sort of jumps right up there,
Speaker 1: takes the mic silence as her makes her look like
Speaker 1: the white victim. And I think she's been playing that
Speaker 1: angle ever since. What do you think? Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I agree with the idea of the white victim. I
Speaker 1: think that was one of the first examples where she
Speaker 1: exposed herself as one of the most dangerous types of
Speaker 1: white women. There's a great quote by a cultural critic,
Speaker 1: Damon Young, and he said that this is a Taylor's
Speaker 1: um next altercation with Kanye regarding the recordings that he
Speaker 1: made um saying that he made that famous meeting Taylor,
Speaker 1: And what Damon says is what Taylor did was use
Speaker 1: the inherent empathy and benefit of the doubt. Her white
Speaker 1: womanhood allows her to possess to throw a black person
Speaker 1: under the bus if necessary and convenient. And I feel
Speaker 1: like this, this first instance with Kanye on the v
Speaker 1: m A stage was the first look that we got
Speaker 1: of how she uses her victimhood as a way to
Speaker 1: get things from popular culture and not kind of like
Speaker 1: helps her brand move forward. She's a victim, she's the outsider,
Speaker 1: and you can't really exploit the same system you claim
Speaker 1: to be a victim of. And that's kind of my
Speaker 1: issue with this first altercation with Kanye. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I honestly could not agree more. And I think what
Speaker 1: you said about the idea of the benefit of the doubt,
Speaker 1: that's what I think for me is one of the
Speaker 1: things I find so frustrating about Taylor Swift is that
Speaker 1: she sees this this so first of all, it's kind
Speaker 1: of one of those don't hate the player, hate the
Speaker 1: game situation s where I think Taylor Swift sees the
Speaker 1: world that we live in. She sees that Kanye West,
Speaker 1: as a black man up against her as a white woman,
Speaker 1: that he is going to automatically have people no matter
Speaker 1: what he does. So I think that what he did
Speaker 1: that vm AS was awful, but that people are going
Speaker 1: to automatically be skeptical of him. And so when you
Speaker 1: look at what happened between, you know, her being like, oh,
Speaker 1: he had this line in a song and never talked
Speaker 1: to me about it, and him being like, I got
Speaker 1: permission from her to use this line automatically. I think
Speaker 1: that she knows, well, people are gonna believe me over
Speaker 1: him because I'm a white woman, and I think that
Speaker 1: she plays into that in a way that I find
Speaker 1: very very uncomfortable, playing up her own victimhood over and
Speaker 1: over again. I think it's something that she's really benefited from.
Speaker 1: But I mean that Kanye West to vm a speech
Speaker 1: that happened so long ago, and she's still like, years
Speaker 1: and years and years later, she referenced it in her
Speaker 1: her next her next time at the vim as, she
Speaker 1: gave that speech that was partly about it. Like, I
Speaker 1: get it that it was a traumatic, big thing that
Speaker 1: happened to her, but I don't like the idea of
Speaker 1: building a brand on this one thing. And once again
Speaker 1: SNL sort of mirrored this when they satirized her being
Speaker 1: constantly in a state of shock and awe and oh
Speaker 1: my goodness, I won again. She sort of plays this
Speaker 1: geeky outsider like you've mentioned earlier, Alisa, but she's anything
Speaker 1: but right. She sort of plays the underdog because everybody
Speaker 1: loves an underdog, even though we know she's not. And
Speaker 1: I'll admit Kanye did victimize her when he interrupted her.
Speaker 1: That was rude, right, I think Obama. President Obama called
Speaker 1: him a jackass when describing Kanye's behavior. But you're right,
Speaker 1: She's constantly played into that because it's worked for her.
Speaker 1: And what was the most troubling instance in which she
Speaker 1: played that card, in my opinion, is this Twitter fight
Speaker 1: with Nicki Minajh. So, Nikki, the nominations come out again
Speaker 1: for the Best Music Video of v M a years later,
Speaker 1: and Nikki says, you know, she wasn't nominated. Only women
Speaker 1: with thin bodies get nominated for these kinds of awards. Now,
Speaker 1: if you look at the lineup of all the other nominees,
Speaker 1: it was Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and a couple of guys
Speaker 1: like a bunch of guys, and so Taylor interpreted that
Speaker 1: as a slight against her because everything is about her. Well, actually,
Speaker 1: if you think of the I think it was a
Speaker 1: rational conclusion. But she missed the point. She thought she
Speaker 1: was being called out because she mentioned slim white women's bodies.
Speaker 1: The only slim white woman in that category was her, Taylor.
Speaker 1: She didn't actually say white. She didn't know, but she
Speaker 1: did say, so it's I think that's a fair and
Speaker 1: I think that's a fair reading between the lines. But
Speaker 1: here's my thing, Nicki Majaj about her. Nicki Minaj wasn't
Speaker 1: calling out Taylor Swift. Nicki Minaj was calling out white supremacy,
Speaker 1: and Taylor Swift, in her mind thinks this is about
Speaker 1: me and it's not about her, And I think that's
Speaker 1: what for me, that's what it comes down to, not
Speaker 1: everything is about you winning and women's supporting women and
Speaker 1: all that. Nicki Minaj had a right, you rightfully call
Speaker 1: out the ways that white supremacy play out in our
Speaker 1: entertainment industry. If you have eyes, you see it. It's
Speaker 1: not it's not a surprise, not a secret. The fact
Speaker 1: that Taylor Swift cannot see that for what it is,
Speaker 1: I think is a real problem and really highlights the
Speaker 1: fact that Taylor Swift is not maybe read in on
Speaker 1: these issues. And now, of course, I mean, it would
Speaker 1: be great if Taylor Swift was just like a woke
Speaker 1: fighter for social change, so like, you know, it'll be great,
Speaker 1: but no, one, she doesn't have to be like she's
Speaker 1: doing her thing fine, But to try to wade into
Speaker 1: it when a black woman is talking about a white
Speaker 1: supremacy plays out on her industry and making it about her,
Speaker 1: that is textbook like victimized the white woman well and
Speaker 1: beyond that, she used feminism as a weapon in her response.
Speaker 1: She said, it's unlike you, Nikki, to tear other women down.
Speaker 1: So she tried to play this holier than thou I'm
Speaker 1: a better feminist than you are card when it was
Speaker 1: clearly not about her, When it was not about her,
Speaker 1: but she totally missed the mark on it. And in
Speaker 1: critiquing Nikki getting in a fight with Nikki, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of observers were like, oh my god, some
Speaker 1: of my favorite badass women artists are fighting. God, please
Speaker 1: get it over it. And to be fair, not to
Speaker 1: defend that move, because that was so ignorant of Taylor.
Speaker 1: But she did come around saying, and I quote, I
Speaker 1: thought I was being called out. I missed the point,
Speaker 1: I misunderstood, then misspoke. I am sorry, Nikki, And like
Speaker 1: nobody's perfect, nobody's born woke, right. I think that was
Speaker 1: a tough moment, but I'm I'm relatively pleased with how
Speaker 1: she came around. What do you think at least? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I agree, and Bridget You've mentioned this one, but that
Speaker 1: instance of Taylor being the victim of Nikki's what she
Speaker 1: interpreted as shade is so similar to the examples of
Speaker 1: black women speaking out and white women being offended because
Speaker 1: they're saying an opinion that has very little to do
Speaker 1: with them, it's about some larger issue, but white woman
Speaker 1: being offended by it and not as something that has
Speaker 1: followed feminism and the historical struggle for representation and rights
Speaker 1: and access and just like trying to be a person
Speaker 1: in the world. That is something that has like followed
Speaker 1: that struggle to just be a human, and Taylor just
Speaker 1: didn't get it, she didn't see it, and it was
Speaker 1: just such an odd copy paste of history where it
Speaker 1: was just repeating itself in social media now Taylor comes
Speaker 1: from privilege, which we have unpacked already. So you know,
Speaker 1: is it shocking and surprising that a white, skinny, blonde
Speaker 1: woman who comes from a very, very wealthy family isn't
Speaker 1: read up on women and gender and race studies? One
Speaker 1: oh one. No, she didn't go to college. This is
Speaker 1: not like the person who are we are going to
Speaker 1: learn about social movements from. However, one would think that
Speaker 1: that access the privilege would also buy you. I don't
Speaker 1: know some cultural understanding of like how things work amongst women,
Speaker 1: and I don't think that feminism is useful if it's
Speaker 1: only for white, privileged, blonde, skinny women. Like it's not
Speaker 1: just about being nice to people all the time, it's
Speaker 1: calling stuff like this out. And I think that that
Speaker 1: was a missed opportunity for Taylor to be an ally
Speaker 1: to Nikki and not just feel like you're hurting me.
Speaker 1: That's mean, girl. You could not I mean, I could
Speaker 1: not have put it better myself. I do I think
Speaker 1: as one as a black woman who hosts a podcasts
Speaker 1: about feminism that has a lot of white women listeners,
Speaker 1: I totally see this play out all the time, every day,
Speaker 1: all day, every day, where if you call something out
Speaker 1: or you you talk about a frustration that you have.
Speaker 1: Oftentimes it can feel like white women don't want to
Speaker 1: hear it, or it's like it hurts their feelings or
Speaker 1: defends them, and it feels like you can't actually speak
Speaker 1: your truth because you don't want to offend Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: or whatever. And again, I mean, when I saw that
Speaker 1: interaction happened on Twitter, I thought Taylor Swift might genuinely
Speaker 1: think that feminism is being nice to Taylor Swift and
Speaker 1: if something includes being mean to Taylor Swift, not feminist
Speaker 1: And that that interaction made me think that feminism is
Speaker 1: just supporting and uplifting Taylor Swift and if feminism doesn't
Speaker 1: look like that, then it's not feminism. And I think
Speaker 1: that's what she was accusing Nikki. Oh yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think Nikki put it perfectly by saying, this is something
Speaker 1: you should speak out about. She responded to Taylor saying, like,
Speaker 1: I wasn't talking about you. I don't know where you
Speaker 1: got that from, but this is a problem that's bigger
Speaker 1: than you, and it's something you should speak out about.
Speaker 1: Did she know she apologized she came around. She's had
Speaker 1: her own awokening it seems a few days later on Twitter.
Speaker 1: But has she taken up that mantle now? Has she
Speaker 1: fought for diversity in music? Now? Has she made race
Speaker 1: a part of her things that she fights for? No,
Speaker 1: she hasn't, And I would like to see that change totally.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really important part of this
Speaker 1: conversation because I don't think feminism is that big of
Speaker 1: a movement at this point where we can be revoking
Speaker 1: people's feminist cards. We can't exactly start turning people away.
Speaker 1: So like, we're very happy to have chiller Swiss in
Speaker 1: in our ranks and in our army. However, like calling
Speaker 1: each other out is part of what being a feminist is.
Speaker 1: And so if she's going to get on her stage
Speaker 1: and on her platform and call herself a feminist and
Speaker 1: use it as a marketing tool, she's relying on a
Speaker 1: social movement that women have fought for representation and access
Speaker 1: to write, money, personhood. If you're going to use that
Speaker 1: to sell stuff back to people, you better be aware
Speaker 1: of the foundation on which you're building your house, because
Speaker 1: you're building it on the backs of men and women
Speaker 1: who have fought hard for that stuff, And you better
Speaker 1: understand the language that you're speaking in, just like she
Speaker 1: understood the language she speaks to young girl then when
Speaker 1: she started her career. Yeah, I mean that's exactly what
Speaker 1: I think that my biggest issue is with her. Nobody
Speaker 1: is forcing her to use feminism as this marketing tool.
Speaker 1: No one is saying you have to be a feminist,
Speaker 1: have to talk about feminism and squad and this and that.
Speaker 1: She's made a choice that that is something that she's
Speaker 1: going to be about. You can't just take that up.
Speaker 1: It's not just a costume and you're gonna talk the
Speaker 1: talking about to walk the walk. Sometimes being a feminist
Speaker 1: isn't fun. Sometimes being a feminist means being called a
Speaker 1: feminist kill joy or a social justice warrior or taking
Speaker 1: up causes. It's not very fun or luquid. It's to
Speaker 1: take up. Sometimes it's hard work. Sometimes it's hell. But
Speaker 1: you know you're calling yourself a feminist, you better Dan
Speaker 1: Well be ready to walk that walk. And I don't
Speaker 1: think you're doing that. And if you really think about her,
Speaker 1: embrace the feminism is relatively new. Back in twelve, she
Speaker 1: said she wasn't a feminist because, quote, I don't really
Speaker 1: think about things as guys versus girls. Luckily, it seems
Speaker 1: that squad member Lena Dunham took her under her wing
Speaker 1: and uh had a little chat with her. Hopefully, Nikki
Speaker 1: took her under her wing and said let's talk about
Speaker 1: intersectional feminism. A few years later, but she evolved, like
Speaker 1: so many women do, to realize that, as she put it, quote,
Speaker 1: I didn't quite understand that saying you're a feminist is
Speaker 1: just saying that you hope women and men will have
Speaker 1: equal rights and equal opportunities. So she come around and
Speaker 1: come out as a feminist. Yes, but you know, as
Speaker 1: Jill Philipovic wrote for The Washington Post, feminism is more
Speaker 1: than just supporting your girl friends and churning out charming
Speaker 1: catch phrases about girl power. I actually liked seeing the
Speaker 1: evolution of her going from I'm not a feminist to
Speaker 1: embracing it. I actually like seeing how that can happen
Speaker 1: in real time and following celebrities as they grapple with
Speaker 1: these issues, because you know, my me coming to commons
Speaker 1: with a feminist was a journey. I'm sure it was
Speaker 1: a journey for all of us. And I actually applaud
Speaker 1: her for not, like, you know, dying on the Hill
Speaker 1: of anti feminism for saying, actually, it turns out that
Speaker 1: feminism is a cool thing, and I am a feminist
Speaker 1: after all, and showing that, like you can make that transition,
Speaker 1: and really, you know, it's not very feminist of her.
Speaker 1: Bridget was this past election cycle when we were kind
Speaker 1: of counting on feminist we were kind of counting on
Speaker 1: white women in particular to uh come out and vote,
Speaker 1: and to come out and vote for the candidate who
Speaker 1: was going to make life a little easier on all women,
Speaker 1: the candidate who did not rag about that the assaulting women.
Speaker 1: That one one where the hell was Taylor Swift in sixteen?
Speaker 1: If I told you the amount of time I have
Speaker 1: spent thinking, writing, researching, and talking about who Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: voted for, it would blow your mind. You would be like,
Speaker 1: there's like strings and paper on my apartment wall where
Speaker 1: I've got charts, and I'm like crossing this to this
Speaker 1: on this day. She said this, like I'm down a
Speaker 1: rabbit hole of trying to figure this out. And here's
Speaker 1: the thing, when all these other members of her squad,
Speaker 1: Lena Dunham, Oh, Katy Perry is not exactly a member
Speaker 1: of her squad, but she was stumping like crazy for Hillary. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when you have all these other prominent young women not
Speaker 1: just saying go out and vote, but being an advocate
Speaker 1: for voting for somebody that you really really believe in.
Speaker 1: I was like, where was Taylor. It would have taken
Speaker 1: something subtle, right, Like, I know that she has this
Speaker 1: country fan base. Maybe she doesn't want to alienate them.
Speaker 1: I totally totally get it. And I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: you have to that. I expect the people to go
Speaker 1: out and be Rara, you know, stumping for Hillary Clinton
Speaker 1: or whatever. But I do think that it wouldn't be
Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world to say, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm met down with people who rag about sexual assault.
Speaker 1: You know who did that, Donald Trump. I was running
Speaker 1: for president, Donald Trump. Yeah. It was just noticeably mute, right.
Speaker 1: It was a noticeable anomaly in terms of her brand
Speaker 1: of being ra Ra feminism, ra Ra squad, but not
Speaker 1: at all touching politics. And it seems like it's one
Speaker 1: thing to abstain from going political, even in our climate
Speaker 1: where all celebrity work is basically becoming political, and it
Speaker 1: feels like our idols and politics have merged in a
Speaker 1: way recently, that's very new. But it's another thing to
Speaker 1: be the poster child of the Aryan supporters, like the
Speaker 1: Aryan race, like the neo Nazi movement, and to say nothing, Well,
Speaker 1: that might sound like a huge exaggeration, but if you
Speaker 1: google Taylor Swift and Nazis, that's actually exactly what's going on.
Speaker 1: So if you don't know this kind of a weird
Speaker 1: thing on the Internet, it is that Taylor Swift has
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, been embraced as this Aryan goddess by
Speaker 1: literal Nazis and white supremacists. And this is something that
Speaker 1: is taken over the Internet. There are so much subculture
Speaker 1: is dedicated to it. And actually The Daily Bees published
Speaker 1: an article earlier this year with the headline it's time
Speaker 1: for Taylor Swift to denounce her Neo Nazi admirers. So,
Speaker 1: according to Andre Anglin, who is the writer of the
Speaker 1: white supremacist blogs the Daily Stormer, he says, first, Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift is a pure Aryan goddess, like something out of
Speaker 1: a classical Greek poem Athena Reborn. That's the most important thing.
Speaker 1: It is also an established fact that Taylor Swift is
Speaker 1: secretly a Nazi, and it's simply waiting for the right time.
Speaker 1: When Donald Trump makes it safe for her to come
Speaker 1: out and announce her Ariaan agenda to the world, probably
Speaker 1: she will be be truth to Trump's son and they
Speaker 1: will be crowned American royalty. So if this is out
Speaker 1: on a leading white nationalist website and you're and you
Speaker 1: don't say anything, I think it's a problem. Maybe she's thinking,
Speaker 1: I don't even want to give attention to it, but
Speaker 1: it's out there. Yeah, I mean, there's gotta be a
Speaker 1: lot of crazy stuff that's said about you when you're
Speaker 1: that famous, and picking and choosing what to respond to
Speaker 1: is not easy. But given the climate, given what's happening,
Speaker 1: given the violence, giving Charlottesville, given this election, to stay mute,
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you do that when you're as
Speaker 1: influential as she is. Choosing to sit out an election
Speaker 1: like two thou sixteen is one thing, but choosing to
Speaker 1: sit out an opportunity to proclaim your values and take
Speaker 1: action on your values. I mean it's like she's taking polls,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. She seems like the most
Speaker 1: hyper calculated candidate out there, like she will pull before
Speaker 1: she decides what to speak out against. Definitely. And I
Speaker 1: don't think that speaking out against Nazis should be a
Speaker 1: controversial thing, and yet I think it might be. Right now,
Speaker 1: I think most of what's problematic about Taylor all boils
Speaker 1: down to racial issues, really and truly, if you look
Speaker 1: at the cultural appropriation conversation around her use of those
Speaker 1: sort of nameplate earrings and twerking in Shake It Off
Speaker 1: the music video, some people said, well, it's at the
Speaker 1: same as really co opting black culture because she was
Speaker 1: sort of parroting it. I'm not sure it's that argument
Speaker 1: really stands, but I kind of get it right. She
Speaker 1: wasn't trying to say, look at me, I'm I'm I'm
Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus. I'm actually using black culture to be cool.
Speaker 1: She was saying, like, look at me trying on all
Speaker 1: these different genres. Haha, aren't I a dork? You know,
Speaker 1: different but still not cool? A little cringe E. It's
Speaker 1: cringe E. And I think for me why it's cringe
Speaker 1: E is that it really highlights something that I race
Speaker 1: not withstand. They have a problem with her is that
Speaker 1: she often makes a show of how like adorably bad
Speaker 1: she is at things like, oh, I'm in front of
Speaker 1: all these black professional dancers who are doing a great
Speaker 1: job of dancing and I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: Isn't that funny? And it's like, maybe it is a
Speaker 1: racialized thing because I don't think that people of color
Speaker 1: get the same leeway to bask in their own expressions
Speaker 1: of mediocrity. And Taylor Swift does that sometimes and it
Speaker 1: drives me nuts. Yes, yes, basking in their expressions of
Speaker 1: media acrity. I love that because her whole thing is
Speaker 1: you know, adorable, right, Yeah, I don't like it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally get it. The most problematic, the most problematic
Speaker 1: expression of cultural appropriation one on one is Google Wildest Dreams.
Speaker 1: That video I think went nowhere in part because people
Speaker 1: were so horrified that, oh my gosh, is she romanticizing
Speaker 1: African colonialism? Yes, folks, Yes, indeed she's on the African
Speaker 1: planes okay, sort of allah colonial occupation days. And it
Speaker 1: looks like a magical love story and it's just like,
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? I mean, I almost this was
Speaker 1: so bad. I almost felt bad for her because I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: where where was that? Like someone in her team left
Speaker 1: up that this got out there right, Like this was
Speaker 1: a breach of some sort of system. She should have
Speaker 1: someone in her team who's like pulled her aside, and
Speaker 1: it's like, girl is the mistake control? I almost like
Speaker 1: something there was no quality control. There was a failure
Speaker 1: of something in her team, and I feel bad that
Speaker 1: she got got duped by it or something. It's not good.
Speaker 1: And then even the most recent video are You Ready
Speaker 1: For It um, which we've sort of abstained from talking
Speaker 1: about our feelings about her latest musical release, mainly because
Speaker 1: we don't have very nice things to say. And I'm
Speaker 1: ready for the whole album. I'm like looking forward to
Speaker 1: maybe maybe it'll get better. But music aside, the video
Speaker 1: Are You Ready For It has graffiti, layden, urban sort
Speaker 1: of scenes that are very little Tokyo esque. There's actual
Speaker 1: characters on the walls, and it just feels a little
Speaker 1: bit like she's maybe headed in a Miley Cyrus Bangers
Speaker 1: direction because she's basically rapping in a video Taylor is
Speaker 1: left rapping. I don't wanna It's not good. It's not good.
Speaker 1: It's just like, why do you have to do the
Speaker 1: race thing? Why do you have to cross those lines
Speaker 1: to be cool? You don't have to white women alert,
Speaker 1: You do not need to pretend to be black in
Speaker 1: order to come across as cool. Yeah, and she's so
Speaker 1: as we said earlier, she's so talented in other ways,
Speaker 1: Like she didn't need to pretend to work or pretend
Speaker 1: to wrap to make a good song. In fact, I
Speaker 1: would say doing that as a gimmicky and in terms
Speaker 1: of your song won't be good. I think that she
Speaker 1: should focus on her real talent and not trying to
Speaker 1: be something she's not for a weird gimmick or joke,
Speaker 1: maybe as retaliation. Maybe sometimes playing to your critics instead
Speaker 1: of playing to your fans will take you in a
Speaker 1: bad direction. Just a thought, just an artistic musing. But
Speaker 1: here's the thing. Is she on the same level as
Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus in terms of white girl fail? Oh no?
Speaker 1: In my book, no, I haven't adopted a culture and
Speaker 1: then denounced that same culture. You know, And honestly, I
Speaker 1: can forgive a few slip ups here and there if
Speaker 1: you're someone who is genuinely seems like you're interested in
Speaker 1: being thoughtful and curious and willing to learn and learn
Speaker 1: and grow. And so I think I see that in
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift in a way that maybe I don't see
Speaker 1: in Miley Cyrus, I agree completely, and so I want
Speaker 1: to wrap this up by saying, this is a tough
Speaker 1: episode to pass through. This is a tough conversation. We're
Speaker 1: so glad to have you a Lisa joining us for
Speaker 1: this one, because it's not easy to really break down
Speaker 1: an artist like Taylor Swift, who is so impressive, so influential,
Speaker 1: so talented and fraught. And it is okay, listeners, just
Speaker 1: as a reminder, is actually okay to have problematic faiths.
Speaker 1: It is okay to love their work and hold them
Speaker 1: to a high moral standard. And like you said, bridget
Speaker 1: to see and hope that they learn and grow so
Speaker 1: we can all learn and grow together. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: want to make it sound like I hate Taylor Swift.
Speaker 1: I'm just not her biggest fan. And I think the
Speaker 1: reason why I'm not her biggest fan is because I
Speaker 1: see her using feminism in ways that honestly remind me
Speaker 1: of myself many many years ago, and I want her
Speaker 1: to be better. I wanted to be a role model
Speaker 1: for all the other young women out there like myself
Speaker 1: who were still finding their feminists footing, and I want
Speaker 1: her to model how we can all be more inclusive
Speaker 1: feminists and I think she has this amazing platform. She's
Speaker 1: this amazing talented person who has harnessed the energy of
Speaker 1: young women and validated them in ways that frankly, they
Speaker 1: don't really get validated a lot. And I think that
Speaker 1: she could just tweak some things and refine that and
Speaker 1: really get there. And that's what I want to see
Speaker 1: for her. I just want to reiterate that I think
Speaker 1: being a fan of Taylor Swift and being a critic
Speaker 1: of Taylor Swift it's part and parcel of the same fandom.
Speaker 1: So if I came off maybe as a little bit
Speaker 1: critical of Taylor, really it comes from a place that
Speaker 1: I want to see her embrace and use the platform
Speaker 1: in the stage that she has created for herself for
Speaker 1: a broader and a more intersectional purpose. I think that
Speaker 1: everyone would benefit. UM. But I also think that we're
Speaker 1: at this cultural moment where we just can't trust white women.
Speaker 1: Can't trust white women to come out and vote for
Speaker 1: and support other women, we can't trust white women on juries,
Speaker 1: and we can't trust white women to lead a lot
Speaker 1: of companies. UM. And that's because white women have repeatedly
Speaker 1: ignored conversations of race and us and gender and sexuality,
Speaker 1: all the stuff that you guys so awesomely talk about
Speaker 1: and dig into on the podcast, And we're at this
Speaker 1: historical moment where those conversations feel most vital and most
Speaker 1: important to our national conversation. And I think Taylor has
Speaker 1: at a great moment in her career and in her
Speaker 1: platform to help us have those really hard conversations. And
Speaker 1: by the way, that's the role of a pop star.
Speaker 1: A pop star or a celebrity really helps us negotiate
Speaker 1: our identity in troubled times. If you look back at
Speaker 1: all the celebrities who have been able to withstand cultural changes,
Speaker 1: the ones who are able to join that conversation are
Speaker 1: the ones that stay relevant. So I hope the Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift can be able to help us. And we're the
Speaker 1: ones who put a pop in popular culture, We're the
Speaker 1: ones who make popular culture. We as fans look to
Speaker 1: celebrities like Taylor to make sense of the world, ourselves,
Speaker 1: and our identities. And I just want to see Taylor
Speaker 1: help us reconcile all those contradictions of our culture and
Speaker 1: this weird, bizarre time that we live in, because that's
Speaker 1: how she stays relevant, and I want to see her
Speaker 1: stay relevant, Elsa. It is such a pleasure to have
Speaker 1: you on today. Thank you so much for helping us
Speaker 1: wade through the waters of Taylor Swift our problematic Save Alisa.
Speaker 1: Where can folks find out more about what you're up to? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm on Instagram at pop culture Pirates. On Twitter,
Speaker 1: I'm at pop cult Pirates because pop Culture Pirate was
Speaker 1: too long, and you can hit me up on Facebook
Speaker 1: at Elisa Chrissinger my full name, um and if you
Speaker 1: are interested in hearing Bridget and I deep dive more
Speaker 1: on this topic on Taylor Swift and Problematic Base, you
Speaker 1: can listen to strong Opinions Loosely Held, where we also
Speaker 1: go into a bunch of pop culture topics from a
Speaker 1: feminist perspective, UM like y h G TV explains America
Speaker 1: and a bunch of other fun pop culture conversation. So
Speaker 1: I hope to see some of you guys over there.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so we want to hear from usmnty listeners. What
Speaker 1: are your feelings on Taylor Swift? Do you find some
Speaker 1: of what she says problematic? Do you hope for a
Speaker 1: more woke Taylor Swift? Perhaps, do we hope for Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift that comes around, finds her feminist footing, and especially
Speaker 1: is better when it comes to race and intersectional feminism.
Speaker 1: We want to hear from you, and I hope we're
Speaker 1: not alone in this because this is a tough one
Speaker 1: and it's here for you. So I finally stopped dragging
Speaker 1: my feet and we went and did it. So send
Speaker 1: us a tweet at mom Stuff Podcast, find us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff mom Never Told You, or send us
Speaker 1: an email if you've got to unpack even a lengthier
Speaker 1: thought at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.