Speaker 1: Before we get started, folks, it's important to know that
Speaker 1: this episode contained some strong and explicit language that may
Speaker 1: not be suitable for all the listeners. So if you've
Speaker 1: got your kiddos in the crowd, this might not be
Speaker 1: the episode for them. We thought about censoring it, but
Speaker 1: we decided we couldn't, not in good faith, because this
Speaker 1: episode is fundamentally about free speech and language. We hope
Speaker 1: you enjoy. And one additional note, we had a little
Speaker 1: bit of technical difficulty at the beginning of this episode,
Speaker 1: this first part of our two part series. Due to
Speaker 1: this technical difficulty, Noels Mike is actually not on for
Speaker 1: the duration of the first episode or for most of it. However,
Speaker 1: we believe that this interview was important enough and enjoyable
Speaker 1: enough and fantastic enough that we wanted to salvage it
Speaker 1: and play it out in full and hopefully I didn't
Speaker 1: say too much. Yea, welcome to the show, ridiculous historians,
Speaker 1: we have something very special for you today. Now we
Speaker 1: get our yucks, and we get our go fas and
Speaker 1: our chuckles occasionally when you say no, that's how we
Speaker 1: referred to them. But we have rarely talked about the
Speaker 1: profound depth of story in the evolution of comedy and
Speaker 1: comedy is commentary right now, like way way back in
Speaker 1: the day in Western Europe, even the jester was the
Speaker 1: only person sometimes who could speak the truth to the king.
Speaker 1: It's a profession of truth telling, Ben, which is your name,
Speaker 1: and it's evolved over time and it's become an important
Speaker 1: source of satire and social commentary. And it's these comedians
Speaker 1: that are able to say things that are needed to
Speaker 1: help society, like move forward into help change laws and
Speaker 1: change perspectives. And that is no exception for the two
Speaker 1: incredible comics we're talking about today. But we're not doing
Speaker 1: it alone our way back right, that's right, Well, we
Speaker 1: are joined, of course, as always with our super producer.
Speaker 1: We've got Paul deck In filling in for Casey Pegraham today.
Speaker 1: Make sure you knock out those sound cues, Paul. But
Speaker 1: we did not come alone into this phrae of comics
Speaker 1: versus the law. We came with an expert. We would
Speaker 1: like to introduce you, fellow ridiculous historians, to demand the
Speaker 1: myth legend. Wayne Fetterman, thank you, thank you for calling
Speaker 1: me a myth. What does it mean to be a myth?
Speaker 1: Does that mean you don't exist. That means I don't exist.
Speaker 1: If you've watched television over the last several ever, yeah,
Speaker 1: mean you have seen this man and everything from the
Speaker 1: X Files. I saw you in an episode of Baywatch,
Speaker 1: which was very impressive. Are Dean Weinstock and Curb Enthusiasm,
Speaker 1: And you basically extorted Larry David for a meeting Julia
Speaker 1: Louis Dreyfuss so that he would have a wire removed
Speaker 1: from his backyard. And the meeting didn't go well, and
Speaker 1: you refuse to have the wire removed. What is your deal?
Speaker 1: What was that line? What was that line? And that
Speaker 1: and that When we say you call that a meeting,
Speaker 1: I call that one of the most horror just a
Speaker 1: horrible moment in my life. Yes, that was That was amazing. Also,
Speaker 1: just before we continue with my credits, because that's gonna
Speaker 1: be the best part of the show. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: none of those lines are written, so every it's just
Speaker 1: you have the bullet points of what's supposed to happen
Speaker 1: in that scene, and we do it, and we do it,
Speaker 1: and then we'll do it a few times and then
Speaker 1: Larry will go more of that, less of that, more
Speaker 1: of this that's funny. And so every line you hear
Speaker 1: me say on that show is something I wrote at
Speaker 1: the moment. That's even that's incredible. And I have to ask,
Speaker 1: is to peep behind the curtain? Is a pedantic number
Speaker 1: of takes? Or is it? Is it pretty much like
Speaker 1: let's do it a couple of let's do it one
Speaker 1: more time. It seems like Larry would be more laid back,
Speaker 1: like be a little more like a brief emotional direction
Speaker 1: or something. What's the scoop? Well, that's a good question
Speaker 1: for that was I mean, this was early on. That's
Speaker 1: like the sixth episode of the show, so they were
Speaker 1: still kind of figuring out their technique at that point,
Speaker 1: and a guy named Larry Charles was directing it. But
Speaker 1: just basically Larry David like, yeah, that's that's close enough.
Speaker 1: Let's go on to the next thing. Like it wasn't.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like, oh, this moment has to be perfect,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, so it wasn't a lot of texts.
Speaker 1: Although I will say this, and this is gonna sound
Speaker 1: like I'm bragging, but I'm not. It's just that Larry
Speaker 1: sometimes gets like these giggle fits. And so the next
Speaker 1: time I did the show where I had to hug
Speaker 1: him and he breaks my glasses and I'm like, no problem,
Speaker 1: I'll just send you an invoice. That's right. Um. He
Speaker 1: kept laughing every time because I'm so sincere in my like,
Speaker 1: I'm the nice guy who's a horrible guy. Is sort
Speaker 1: of with the angle of that dude, uh that He
Speaker 1: just kept laughing, laughing, laughing to the point where he
Speaker 1: had to apologize to the crew for pushing the shoot back.
Speaker 1: So that's great, I mean, oh my god. I just
Speaker 1: want to say I wish Larry David was my dad.
Speaker 1: I've said that many times. I don't know. I didn't
Speaker 1: have a very good relationship with my dad, so maybe
Speaker 1: that's being informed by that. But Larry David just strikes
Speaker 1: me as like the perfect curmudgeon. But he also seems
Speaker 1: like he'd be pretty cool to work with and pretty
Speaker 1: easy to get. You want a dad his multimillionaire Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, and and and just makes great observations,
Speaker 1: you know what. Uh No, I I agree. I would
Speaker 1: love it if he were your dad, because then I
Speaker 1: could just come over. But I wouldn't it wouldn't have
Speaker 1: to be a forever thing. I could leave, but let
Speaker 1: us let let us continue just a little bit, Wayne
Speaker 1: with some more of some more of these credentials. Uh,
Speaker 1: some people may not know that you are a professor
Speaker 1: at the University of Southern California. Correct, that is correct?
Speaker 1: I am officially, I mean I'm a professor, that's the
Speaker 1: right word. But I'm an adjunct professor. Do you know
Speaker 1: what that means? Does that mean not tenured? Does that
Speaker 1: mean you don't have an office and all of those things? Correct?
Speaker 1: Whatever you think? I mean, it's it basically means not
Speaker 1: a real professors. What it means it means I don't
Speaker 1: have like a master's or a PhD or something like that.
Speaker 1: But just are you teaching the history of stand up?
Speaker 1: Is that your specialty in both the history of stand
Speaker 1: up and a performance class combined? And it's advanced, it's
Speaker 1: you have to take another stand up class even to
Speaker 1: get to Professor Vetterman. Well, yeah, so if we were
Speaker 1: to enroll, we would have to start start at level one.
Speaker 1: Got pre rex I have And not only do you
Speaker 1: teach these classes, you also have a brand new podcast
Speaker 1: on the Podglomerate network, All the History of stand Up,
Speaker 1: which is a surprise surprise, is about the history of
Speaker 1: standard Yeah, it's not a it's not a misdirect. It's
Speaker 1: not like, oh my god, we're just gonna be talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, youth culture and um ra monrovia. That's how
Speaker 1: good I am at ad libbing. I can't quite get
Speaker 1: a word out. But you never know, we're gonna tap
Speaker 1: some of your your knowledge on the subject today for
Speaker 1: this episode. Course, that's why I'm here. Before we continue,
Speaker 1: I do want to say I specifically enjoyed the episode
Speaker 1: on the rise of stand up or what we perceive
Speaker 1: as modern stand up through the Vaudeville era, and thank you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. I learned a lot. I'm going to be
Speaker 1: insufferable at parties for the next few weeks. You want
Speaker 1: to set the stage a little bit with just like
Speaker 1: I think that the comics were talking about today obviously
Speaker 1: benefited from and you mentioned at the top of the show, Ben,
Speaker 1: the idea of stand up as truth telling and this
Speaker 1: notion of the vaud what is it called the performance
Speaker 1: of one performance in one one? Will you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about that way, like just this conceptslute Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it's um just so you know, I know you you
Speaker 1: hold these comedians up as these truth tellers and on
Speaker 1: the vanguard of social change, and there is an element
Speaker 1: of comedy that is that there's also a whole another sea,
Speaker 1: a whole ocean of comedy that isn't that that's just
Speaker 1: making people laugh, and in a way that's a wonderful experience.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so I just I know you, I feel
Speaker 1: like comedians, some kinds get elevated as these truth tellers.
Speaker 1: Is like they're really just trying to get people to laugh,
Speaker 1: is there is their main goal? Is their main goal?
Speaker 1: So no, if you go back to Vault, it's interesting
Speaker 1: you should you picked up on that episode because we
Speaker 1: talked about this guy, Frank Fay, that a lot of
Speaker 1: people look to is the the architect of the modern
Speaker 1: what we consider the modern stand up. It was kind
Speaker 1: of like a wise guy, smart guy in a suit,
Speaker 1: who does you know, no baggy pants, no weird hats,
Speaker 1: doesn't you know, crazy big tie or anything like that
Speaker 1: that screams, Hey, I'm a comedian, you know, just a
Speaker 1: got a sharp talking guy. And from that, this guy's
Speaker 1: name is Frank Fay. And another time you should do
Speaker 1: an episode, you guys should do one Frank Fay because
Speaker 1: he's a really interesting guy because he not only creates this,
Speaker 1: but is this. He's sort of anti Semitic, and he's
Speaker 1: he supports the Nazis and it's just a crazy dude.
Speaker 1: He's very insufferable man. And uh, it's just like that,
Speaker 1: this guy. I love that. In fact, this is the
Speaker 1: guy that sort of started the whole thing. It's perfect.
Speaker 1: It's perfect. So anyway, Vaudeville was family entertainment and the
Speaker 1: height of audeville, like what today would be getting a
Speaker 1: Netflix special, was to perform at a theater in New
Speaker 1: York called the Palace, which was right off Broadway. No, no,
Speaker 1: it's a little higher than forty eight. And so that
Speaker 1: was like the goal of every comedian, and Frank Faye
Speaker 1: was the MC at the Palace. They used to not
Speaker 1: even have mcs. They used to just put up a
Speaker 1: placard or like a big card and say this is
Speaker 1: you know, thinks Mules and then this act would come
Speaker 1: out and they do it. So he would like in
Speaker 1: between the acts, he like kibbits with the crowd, and
Speaker 1: eventually that became his act. And by performing in one
Speaker 1: usually there was a curtain and in one was the
Speaker 1: very front of the stage. That meant there was you
Speaker 1: didn't need anything behind you. So a lot of times
Speaker 1: comedians were needed because they would be setting up an
Speaker 1: acrobac act or a contortionist act behind the curtain while
Speaker 1: the stand up was just doing his his stick. So
Speaker 1: that was called being in one. And now it means
Speaker 1: sort of like you are alone out there. It's it's
Speaker 1: it's a literal and figurative statement, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1: So that's that makes sense though from from the behind
Speaker 1: the scenes perspective that you wouldn't want that dead air, right,
Speaker 1: You would want the right to have something to look at. Yep, yep, exactly.
Speaker 1: You don't want a big, deep stage behind you when
Speaker 1: all you really need is it just your voice. And
Speaker 1: then microphones sort of changed that a little bit, you know,
Speaker 1: and that was more than nightclub era. And that's when
Speaker 1: they added something called alcohol to the equation. And is
Speaker 1: that what is that kind of moved more from vaudeville
Speaker 1: into like burlesque where becomes less of a family affair.
Speaker 1: Is that when no burlesque ray and rank concurrent to vaudeville,
Speaker 1: which was like a lower class entertainment that was kind
Speaker 1: of looked down upon and mainly men went to burlesque shows,
Speaker 1: not a lot of women, and it was sort of
Speaker 1: like there might be a stripper or a you know,
Speaker 1: a very fan dancer, so you know, like that. And
Speaker 1: and the comedians in burlesque were way more broad and
Speaker 1: because you had you know, there was just guys there
Speaker 1: in the you know, degenerates in the middle of the
Speaker 1: afternoon watching women. And then it was very hard to
Speaker 1: do very subtle kind of you know, Jack Benny hyper
Speaker 1: humor to these guys. So burlesque grand concurrent to vaudeville,
Speaker 1: but was like considered a low form of entertainment. And
Speaker 1: when when we were originally talking before doing this episode, uh,
Speaker 1: we had asked you to share with our listeners some
Speaker 1: stories about what we would what we would call notorious
Speaker 1: cases of comedians versus the law. And I'm setting this
Speaker 1: up now because when we I believe you had said
Speaker 1: earlier in the history of stand up that the term
Speaker 1: stand up comic didn't really come about until the late
Speaker 1: forties maybe or so correct. Somebody is listening to my podcast.
Speaker 1: This is a miracle. I love it. I literally thought
Speaker 1: my podcast would be for like I don't know, hundred
Speaker 1: and eighty people who ridged in the history of this,
Speaker 1: so um, yeah, they didn't have a term for like
Speaker 1: when Milton Burrow was doing stand up and we have
Speaker 1: a clip of Burl at the Winter Garden Theater doing
Speaker 1: basically stand up jokes. You know, he does a joke
Speaker 1: about a restaurant that's so expensive they have three waiters
Speaker 1: for each table. Wanted to give you the check and
Speaker 1: two to revive you. So, you know, just like a joke,
Speaker 1: just you know, jokes. And he was doing that stuff
Speaker 1: before there was even the term stand up, so they
Speaker 1: called him either monologists or comics or something like that.
Speaker 1: But then eventually, like kers wanted to know what you
Speaker 1: were getting, Like they would book a variety show and
Speaker 1: they would need a singer and you know, maybe a juggler,
Speaker 1: and then a comic and then go what kind of
Speaker 1: comedy does he stand up? Does he need music? Does
Speaker 1: he you know? And so it was a specific kind
Speaker 1: of comic who just used their voice. I guess one
Speaker 1: of the big questions we have, like the two Knowle's
Speaker 1: exploration there of burlesque running concurrently with vaudeville but being
Speaker 1: considered a lower form of entertainment, where did these stand
Speaker 1: up comics fit in Were they controversial, were they just
Speaker 1: something new and strange? Was it a slow evolution or
Speaker 1: a sudden one. That's a good question. Um, I you know,
Speaker 1: I think people always you know, I just think it's
Speaker 1: a human need to want to laugh. Like, especially in
Speaker 1: a group of people. It's a very exciting, cathartic, you know,
Speaker 1: elevated moment when you're all laughing at the same time.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever seen a movie called
Speaker 1: Sullivan's Travels, um, but it's just a great movie about
Speaker 1: this Broadway producer who, like it, gets burnt out on
Speaker 1: Hollywood and goes to see what, you know, what is
Speaker 1: it pretends he's like a bum and and one of
Speaker 1: the great moments is him just watching these these cartoons
Speaker 1: with a bunch of itinerant workers and they're all laughing together,
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, there's value in this. There's a value.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful movie. And uh, I know that's a
Speaker 1: little sidetrack, but my point fantastic. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's uh it's like, well, I don't know anyway, Joel McCrae,
Speaker 1: Veronica Lake, I'm gonna name the whole cast people no
Speaker 1: one's ever heard of um, I'm gonna keep going. So
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, I I guess you know, there's
Speaker 1: always been funny, but like you said earlier, there's court
Speaker 1: gestures and you know even uh, you know, early on
Speaker 1: in vaudeville there was like funny comedian singer types, which
Speaker 1: is like an Eddie Cantor or something like that, and
Speaker 1: then they were just like, oh, people just like the
Speaker 1: comedy part, and so people specialized in that, and then
Speaker 1: that became very much more kind of like an opening
Speaker 1: act for like a singer like I was just listening to,
Speaker 1: Like George Carlin would open for this singer named Oliver
Speaker 1: in the sixties, and Woody Allen opened for Barbara streisand
Speaker 1: and then later for Jim Crocey. So it was like
Speaker 1: a great way to sort of settle the crowd, get
Speaker 1: some laughs, and then you know, get the headliner up there,
Speaker 1: unless it was and eventually the comics became the headline. Well.
Speaker 1: And it's also like kind of a self sufficient act, right,
Speaker 1: like you don't really need a whole lot of props
Speaker 1: or you know, back line or like equipment or anything.
Speaker 1: It's just a person in their brain and their mouth
Speaker 1: and acrophone microphone, so that a d That's why musicians
Speaker 1: like want to be comics. They're like, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: have to deal with this road crew guy and this
Speaker 1: dude setting up my guitar and not tuning it right.
Speaker 1: And like even to be in a band is a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. Like we just get on an airplane
Speaker 1: or get in a are and go to the gig
Speaker 1: and then go back. It's it is. I think it's
Speaker 1: the simplest, right, there's really I mean, I'm gonna throw
Speaker 1: that out to you guys. Can you think of anything
Speaker 1: well you need to bring less physical attributes to the
Speaker 1: to the act. No, not really. Maybe podcasting, I mean
Speaker 1: they usually provide the mix for us to We're actually
Speaker 1: doing our first tour next week, so we'll we'll report
Speaker 1: back and let's how that goes. But you're going out
Speaker 1: on the road. I love it. We're hitting the road. Wayne,
Speaker 1: wish us luck. But listen, let's get let's get to
Speaker 1: let's get to the let let's get to the headline.
Speaker 1: So the headline. Alright, sorry, I'm not knowledge. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: he Professor Federman. Come on, let's take it easier. Um,
Speaker 1: So we're talking about the term stand up not really
Speaker 1: coming around until the forties. But around the fifties you
Speaker 1: got a guy named Lenny Bruce who comes onto the
Speaker 1: scene and he gets his start um, you know, doing
Speaker 1: the same thing that a lot of comedians would do,
Speaker 1: where he would be on what was it the Steve
Speaker 1: Allen Show. I believe he was on pretty early in
Speaker 1: his career. Lenny Bruce is a fascinating story because he's
Speaker 1: he's like this legend in a way because of what
Speaker 1: he did basically in a like a four or five
Speaker 1: year period. And I'll explain it to you. He really
Speaker 1: he he was in the war in the forties. His
Speaker 1: mom was in show basess, she was kind of a comic.
Speaker 1: He does a talent show and he gets you know,
Speaker 1: does a bunch of impressions, and then he's on Broadway
Speaker 1: Open House and Night and then he's not really on
Speaker 1: television at all. In for most of the fifties, he's
Speaker 1: basically remember we're talking about burlesque and strip clubs. He
Speaker 1: was basically comedian. The worked in strip clubs was his thing,
Speaker 1: and which was this brutal existence, but he was you know,
Speaker 1: he fell in love with this stripper named Honey and he, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, he just could kind of develop this act
Speaker 1: trying to entertain these guys and was just kicking around,
Speaker 1: couldn't get anything go and try to make these short
Speaker 1: films and wrote scripts in Hollywood and nothing, couldn't get
Speaker 1: any traction, really, and then finally the when Mort Saul
Speaker 1: came along long and opened up stand up to being
Speaker 1: a little more about commentary, which you guys mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1: This inspired Lenny Bruce. And also there was a yet
Speaker 1: sort of a I don't know what's amused is the
Speaker 1: word I would use named Joe antsis this is famous
Speaker 1: comedy history who kind of developed Lenny Bruce's jazz talking
Speaker 1: jive style. I don't know if you've heard his records,
Speaker 1: but it's sometimes it's hard to even to connect with
Speaker 1: them because the language is, like, you know, so up
Speaker 1: tusive times. Ladies and gentlemen, the Balladium Theater, body present
Speaker 1: Semedica's fastest rise young comedian and Dean of Satire, Mr
Speaker 1: Frank Dell. Good Evening, ladies and gentlemen, and certainly iced
Speaker 1: to be here at the most famous theater in the world,
Speaker 1: the wonderful Palladium Theater. Well, folks, I just got back
Speaker 1: from lost wages, nava funny thing about working lost wages, folks.
Speaker 1: The way to make a lot of money there when
Speaker 1: you get off the plane, walk one into the propeller
Speaker 1: and then into the motel jokes, the army jokes, the impressions, ten, twelve,
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes and he's bombing nothing but not left one.
Speaker 1: Now he goes into the dying jokes about faults. I
Speaker 1: wasn't born having I'm short dying here ha, a lot
Speaker 1: of different ways to die, and blah blah blah. Now
Speaker 1: he starts with putting the audience down. Well, freddie, freddie boy,
Speaker 1: I see it's a little squares ville, the little squares
Speaker 1: ville for the first show, the greatest in them all,
Speaker 1: old baby crack worm. Let's go to show business, heaven.
Speaker 1: How about it? My show walks off? I guess a
Speaker 1: little courtesy employs two people. Sounds like citizen King harrible.
Speaker 1: And again this is this is later in his career.
Speaker 1: This is not in the fifty one or fIF He
Speaker 1: only started recording later. And that recording is a perfect
Speaker 1: example of it. If just this, you know, he would
Speaker 1: do bits, but he had kind of a hey Man style,
Speaker 1: and he was very much you know, into amphetamines and
Speaker 1: pot and you know, he was he had a relationship
Speaker 1: with with drugs, let's let's put it that way, ultimately
Speaker 1: killed him. And then uh, then he puts you know,
Speaker 1: he puts out this album and that came out in
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty nine, and he was known for using dirty
Speaker 1: words and became what known as a sick comedian. There
Speaker 1: was a great article in Time magazine about these sick
Speaker 1: comedians who would do just like one of his jokes
Speaker 1: would be like, uh, the problem with my marriage was
Speaker 1: my mother in law because I slept with her too
Speaker 1: many times or something like, you know, just like we're
Speaker 1: like people would be like, what is what is he?
Speaker 1: What did I hear? You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And so, guess what. He starts making fun. One of
Speaker 1: his big bits is called Religion Incorporated. And he starts
Speaker 1: doing this bit, and you know a lot of cops
Speaker 1: are irish, you know at that time, and so and
Speaker 1: just you know, the d A s and stuff. So
Speaker 1: he gets arrested in San Francisco and then it becomes
Speaker 1: known as this comedian who's being censored, and sot of
Speaker 1: that elevated him a little bit. And then he gets
Speaker 1: arrested in Chicago at the Gate of Horn and you know,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, George Carlin is at that show
Speaker 1: also gets arrested just because he won't show the cops
Speaker 1: his I d and and Lenny Bridge is like, why
Speaker 1: did they arrest you because I wouldn't show my idea
Speaker 1: because you're a schmuck, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: But the big case happened in New York at the
Speaker 1: cafe Wah wah. I think it's yehause he's like fed
Speaker 1: up with these puritanical l A cops or southern California cops,
Speaker 1: which is right. So he thinks New York is gonna
Speaker 1: be way more progressive. And that's in Greenwich Village, right, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: this is the scene. You know, Ginsburg's there and Dylan
Speaker 1: is there, and it's like it's, uh, you know, it's
Speaker 1: very couldn't be more progressive because I mean outside of
Speaker 1: maybe Madison, Wisconsin or something, I mean, it is the
Speaker 1: centerpiece of progressive and so he's like, Okay, I'm this
Speaker 1: is where I'm going to do it. And of course,
Speaker 1: you know, the Irish New York cops they arrest him,
Speaker 1: and that arrest and conviction stayed on his record for
Speaker 1: his entire life, and it wasn't until I believe two
Speaker 1: thousand three when Governor Pataki of New York overturned or
Speaker 1: gave him clemency or whatever. He pardoned him and instruct
Speaker 1: that from the thing. So it was like he was
Speaker 1: I know, it sounds impossible to believe that adult. No
Speaker 1: adult complained. No, there wasn't one patron. I love using
Speaker 1: that word patron at these clubs. It was like, I
Speaker 1: can't like they knew the sick humor and Lenny Bruce
Speaker 1: is what we want to see. This is what we
Speaker 1: want to hear and to expand our minds a little bit.
Speaker 1: We might be a f we can handle it. So
Speaker 1: it was just just try to think of that, you
Speaker 1: guys of a time not that long ago. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I was born in fifty nine, so it's
Speaker 1: not it's in my lifetime. When police would come into
Speaker 1: an establishment and arrest somebody for using language that's insane.
Speaker 1: They were also undercover police, is that correct, Like they
Speaker 1: were there in playing clothes or something. Yes. Sometimes, I
Speaker 1: mean the one in Chicago is hilarious, and because there's
Speaker 1: a recording of it and you could he's talking about
Speaker 1: the cop. He sees them over there, and then he
Speaker 1: says something and then the cop literally says okay, folks
Speaker 1: shows over, you know, like the cliche and uh, and
Speaker 1: he gets arrested and then they just shut it down. Well,
Speaker 1: and here's the thing too, they actually this was on
Speaker 1: the book. So in New York when he got arrested,
Speaker 1: it was because of something called Penal Code eleven forty
Speaker 1: dash a. And this is this is the language of this.
Speaker 1: It prohibited something they referred to as quote obscene, indecent, immoral,
Speaker 1: and impure dram I assume that means drama, play, exhibition,
Speaker 1: and entertainment, which would tend to the corruption of the
Speaker 1: morals of youth and others. For you, and then you know,
Speaker 1: this is so broad. This is such incredibly broad language,
Speaker 1: the corruption of youth and others. And it's like, who's
Speaker 1: asking for this? But it's also it's it's also part
Speaker 1: of the hypocrisy of the American legal system. That's an
Speaker 1: historic thing. It goes to any form of language or
Speaker 1: communication like the maple thor photographs yea, or like the
Speaker 1: James Joyce ulysses which went all went to the courts
Speaker 1: on the basis of being what pornography and the ultimate
Speaker 1: ruling was I know it when I see it, right, right,
Speaker 1: So this is a very slipper. Now again, I want
Speaker 1: to talk about all of these issues, including motion pictures
Speaker 1: what's going on with them as well. But the point
Speaker 1: you're making is youth and others. It was that the
Speaker 1: language was that the youth and other Yeah, exactly, the
Speaker 1: corruption of the morals of youth and others. So what
Speaker 1: does this even mean? Who's asking for this? Where is
Speaker 1: this coming from? What? What are your what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1: I will tell you where it's coming from. There used
Speaker 1: to be something called community standards, and that was basically saying,
Speaker 1: in this community, we don't want a certain kind of
Speaker 1: film here, and we don't want a certain kind of
Speaker 1: entertainment here, and there was it was a lot of
Speaker 1: it was, believe it or not, the Catholic League would
Speaker 1: have their own board which would decide would rate movies
Speaker 1: and get the Catholic board didness let your movie come
Speaker 1: into your town? It didn't come into your town, and
Speaker 1: that you know, and that's how the politicians state in power,
Speaker 1: and that's how these penal codes, including the one you
Speaker 1: just read eleven. What was the number? A. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: always think of eleven forty B. But I always get
Speaker 1: that wrong. I always get that wrong. Now that's fair.
Speaker 1: I'm not teaching. That's why I'm not at an Ivy
Speaker 1: League school right there. So so that's that's going on
Speaker 1: in the United States. Even when I was a KIG,
Speaker 1: there was something called the Catholic League that would like, no,
Speaker 1: you can't have this coming, this movie come in here.
Speaker 1: So that only changed really in nine eight when they
Speaker 1: started the movie rating system. So before then, I don't know.
Speaker 1: This is incredible just it's a sidebar, but I think
Speaker 1: it's interesting. It's a few years, maybe eight years after
Speaker 1: Lenny Bruce gets arrested. A lot is that, you know,
Speaker 1: they put in these rating systems. So now the first
Speaker 1: movie to ever be right to win Best Picture is
Speaker 1: a g rated movie, the only one a g rated
Speaker 1: movie called Oliver. The next year, sixty nine, an X
Speaker 1: rated movie wins Best Picture. What was it? That's um,
Speaker 1: you know, John Boyd, everybody's talking midnight, which is it's
Speaker 1: now been rerated. It's been rerated. Lenny Bruce in the
Speaker 1: movie Lenny So full Circle. It's all one big thing.
Speaker 1: It's all. But I'm just saying that sort of opened
Speaker 1: up the world for a lot of movie goers, especially
Speaker 1: in small towns in America, because and now they could
Speaker 1: see a movie that the Catholic League didn't deem, you know,
Speaker 1: immoral for this community, these community standards. So anyway, I
Speaker 1: just want to give an overall view of like why
Speaker 1: these penal codes were on the books. It just it
Speaker 1: just gave them a legal reason to shut down a
Speaker 1: movie or something like that. Oh and it's crazy and
Speaker 1: we take all that for granted these days. I mean
Speaker 1: it's so easy to uh not appreciate the fact that
Speaker 1: I can go watch anything I want on Netflix or
Speaker 1: you know, man in the in the theater, that I
Speaker 1: can see dirty stuff. Well, people still do slide back
Speaker 1: into moral panics on a cyclical basis here. Oh so,
Speaker 1: for example, we will see the same kind of moral
Speaker 1: panic of U of rock music polluting the hearts and
Speaker 1: minds of young children because the beat is a little
Speaker 1: too Bouncy's right. I mean there was even all that
Speaker 1: Tipper Gore stuff with the parental advisory stickers and like
Speaker 1: rap music and Marilyn Manson and all that stuff. So
Speaker 1: absolutely it seems like that stuff goes in cycles, but
Speaker 1: ultimately I feel like as a as a culture, we're
Speaker 1: pretty free still to explore whatever you know, tickles our fancy.
Speaker 1: As far as arts concerned, we are making progress, especially
Speaker 1: like as a country, we're making progress. But what a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't know is that this was a
Speaker 1: hard one road and we it was uphill for a
Speaker 1: lot of the ways. And that's why we're still talking
Speaker 1: about Lenny Bruce. Yeah, that's really more than any comedy
Speaker 1: bit he did, any you know, any of those bits
Speaker 1: which were wonderful. But I think that's the reason, you know,
Speaker 1: he's number three on the Rolling Stones Greatest Comedians of
Speaker 1: All Time or something like that, is that's the reason. Well,
Speaker 1: and there's that rm lyric and the end of the
Speaker 1: world as we know it. Lenny Bruce is not afraid,
Speaker 1: and I think that's a very important way of looking
Speaker 1: at him. He kind of boldly went and boldly did
Speaker 1: not give a fuck about what what what was going
Speaker 1: to happen to him as far as the law was concerned.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think maybe overstated the case at
Speaker 1: the top of the show about comedians as truth tellers,
Speaker 1: and maybe it's not something they're intending to do at
Speaker 1: the time. Maybe he's just speaking his truth and that's
Speaker 1: because he thinks it's funny. But removed from the time,
Speaker 1: and you know, with his tragic end and all of
Speaker 1: this court case and all these court cases, you can't
Speaker 1: help but think that he was kind of paving the
Speaker 1: way for this kind of free speech and being able
Speaker 1: to say whatever is on your mind and not be
Speaker 1: persecuted for I think that's what I think you encapsulated
Speaker 1: it very well. They're wayne because also he's saying things
Speaker 1: that everybody knows but no one is saying in public.
Speaker 1: You know that the hypocrisy of it all, like like
Speaker 1: we've never heard these words and speaking of words, hey
Speaker 1: seven in particular, right, Holy no, No, this is just
Speaker 1: kind of off to the side for us. But at
Speaker 1: this point in the interview things are really heat. No,
Speaker 1: this is going well too hot. Hot. Mike's only not
Speaker 1: a hot mike on this particular installment because due to
Speaker 1: a technical difficulty, my mike was not properly on, So
Speaker 1: you're hearing my voice through Ben's mike or an adjacent mike.
Speaker 1: But we assure you for part two of this series,
Speaker 1: my mike will be on and we thought this interview
Speaker 1: was fantastic enough that we wanted to preserve it for posterity,
Speaker 1: So thank you for checking this out. This is a
Speaker 1: rare two parter for us. Have we ever done a
Speaker 1: concurrent two party now this is a first for us.
Speaker 1: Then we're very excited and we hope that you tune
Speaker 1: in for the second part of this series, wherein we
Speaker 1: explore the story of another controversial comedian whose case eventually
Speaker 1: went all the way to the Supreme Court. I can't wait.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, we'd like to thank our super producer
Speaker 1: Paul Decant guest super producer Paul decan are super producer
Speaker 1: in spirit, Casey Pegraham, He's always with us with I
Speaker 1: Thank Alex Williams, who composed our theme. We'd like to
Speaker 1: thank Eaves, Jeff cop and Christopher hasiotis our crack team
Speaker 1: of research associates. We of course would like to thank
Speaker 1: Wayne Fetterman, but you'll hear us do that plenty in
Speaker 1: the second episode. Uh and no, you know what, man,
Speaker 1: Thank you, yeah man, thank you did