Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've
Speaker 1: never told you. It's around Valentine's Day here in the
Speaker 1: United States, and since I'm rarely in relationships, on Valentine's Day,
Speaker 1: I usually get together with my other single female friends
Speaker 1: and we get things like pizza and French fries and
Speaker 1: watch movies together, and it is a lovely time. We
Speaker 1: were doing Valentine's Day before Parks and Direct popularized it.
Speaker 1: I suspect a lot of us were. And my mom
Speaker 1: was also really great about Valentine's Day. Two She would
Speaker 1: make me these flowers out of tissue paper and write
Speaker 1: really sweet cards for me. UM and I used to
Speaker 1: feel a lot of pressure and Loki shame to be
Speaker 1: honest that I was alone on Valentine's Day, But these
Speaker 1: day days, I've mostly overcome it. This Valentine's Day, I
Speaker 1: had some friends over and we played board games and
Speaker 1: we saw Marvel on ice because we are the coolest
Speaker 1: people you have ever heard of. UM. I've spoken a
Speaker 1: lot before about how I'm single and I'm happy that way,
Speaker 1: but people refuse to believe it, or they cannot believe it.
Speaker 1: I get strange looks, all sorts of questions that I'm
Speaker 1: surprised people feel comfortable enough to ask. Basically, aren't you
Speaker 1: worry to dial learn? Or but you're old? Or you
Speaker 1: must be the saddest person. Something is clearly wrong with you.
Speaker 1: And I've heard that same thing from a lot of
Speaker 1: my single friends. This classic episode is all about this
Speaker 1: single hood stigma and how we single women are terrifying
Speaker 1: to people enjoy. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you
Speaker 1: from how Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to
Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen. Kristen did some
Speaker 1: reading this weekend, and did you know that one hundred
Speaker 1: million Americans, that's over half the population are unmarried according
Speaker 1: to the Census Bureau. This means that half of the
Speaker 1: over eighteen population is being overlooked by some very important
Speaker 1: policies talking about these single people, single adults, the single adults. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we ran across an article last week over at
Speaker 1: Tara Parker Pope's wellness blog at the New York Times,
Speaker 1: and she was reporting on how some social scientists and
Speaker 1: researchers think that because of this huge population and growing
Speaker 1: population of American adult singles, that a lot of them
Speaker 1: are being overlooked in terms of benefits, pay taxes and
Speaker 1: things like that. And too much emphasis is being put
Speaker 1: on the holy altar of marriage, right and you know, uh,
Speaker 1: we're fighting for a marriage equality. Yeah, but whether you're
Speaker 1: gay or straight, if you're single, you're going to be
Speaker 1: left behind any marriage reform. You know, that's great, but
Speaker 1: it's still leaving the single people out of that. And
Speaker 1: Naomi Girstell, a sociologist at University of Massachusetts amherst Um, says,
Speaker 1: this push for marriage essentially assumes that if you don't
Speaker 1: get married, there is something wrong with you. Um, but
Speaker 1: a huge proportion of the population is unmarried, and the
Speaker 1: single population is only going to grow. And um, there's
Speaker 1: this September editorial, So a recent editorial and the Guardian
Speaker 1: um sort of brings up the subject of should partners
Speaker 1: have similar rights to um, too married to to spouses? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I started bringing up the the idea of reviving a
Speaker 1: common common law kind of marriage, right. Yeah. It said
Speaker 1: something like it's been there's been no common law marriage
Speaker 1: since the eighteenth century, but most of the population still
Speaker 1: thinks that it exists. And um, and it's good that
Speaker 1: you bring up the issue of partners because when we
Speaker 1: say single, a lot of times, you'll probably assume that
Speaker 1: someone who's completely unattached, like not any kind of long
Speaker 1: term or dating relationship at all. But remember, in this context,
Speaker 1: single applies to just someone who is not married. And um,
Speaker 1: So the Guardian was talking about the Office for National
Speaker 1: Statistics which found that the key to a strong marriage
Speaker 1: is actually to live together first. It's cohabitation. Um and
Speaker 1: On suggests that cohabitation is seen as promoting rather than
Speaker 1: competing with marriage, and uses um this argument to suggest
Speaker 1: that maybe we should have more rights as as domestic
Speaker 1: partners or just you know, folks living together. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: we've talked about premarital cohabitation as it is formerly called
Speaker 1: on the podcast before and talking about whether or not
Speaker 1: um it predicts divorced because there was a study that
Speaker 1: came out a while ago saying that people who lived
Speaker 1: together before they get married are then more likely to
Speaker 1: get divorced. They're all of these statistics that we saw
Speaker 1: about how people who lived together who are unmarried, you know,
Speaker 1: they drink more, and they weigh more, and they have
Speaker 1: lower incomes and you know, basically at all coming emphasizing
Speaker 1: this point over and over again that that marriage you know,
Speaker 1: especially the heterosexual marriage ideal is uh is where it's
Speaker 1: at in terms of family stability. UM. But a lot
Speaker 1: of times to people who are promoting those kind of
Speaker 1: ideas are uh, you know, a little more conservative, little
Speaker 1: agenda based. Yeah. People's ideas of marriage are often based
Speaker 1: on things that they grew up with, the norms that
Speaker 1: they were surrounded by. And these ideals and norms can
Speaker 1: actually have a big effect on the workplace. And according
Speaker 1: to a Busy This Week article from a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, UM, unmarried people wind up making an average
Speaker 1: less than their married colleagues for the same work just
Speaker 1: because of this marriage centric structure that we have going on. Right,
Speaker 1: there just more built in uh benefits for people who
Speaker 1: are married and have children. Um. And there have been
Speaker 1: a lot of companies since this Business Week article came
Speaker 1: out that have tried to be more inclusive, specifically for
Speaker 1: like same sex partners. UM kind of taking away the
Speaker 1: the formal you know, box of of marriage, so the
Speaker 1: to provide rights for our benefits for other people. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, the penalties still exists.
Speaker 1: And what is it the Family UM Medical Leave Act,
Speaker 1: like a federal law. Bella Depollo is a psychologist and
Speaker 1: she is one of the number one voices about singleism.
Speaker 1: She even coined the term singleism h to as a
Speaker 1: catch all for the you know kind of anti single
Speaker 1: discrimination against single folks. Yes, discrimination. Yeah, And she cites
Speaker 1: the Family and Medical Leave Act as an example of
Speaker 1: it because legally, since she's single and doesn't have any children,
Speaker 1: no one can take time off under the law to
Speaker 1: care for her if she becomes really sick, and it's
Speaker 1: not required that she'd be given time off to care
Speaker 1: for siblings, nephews, close friends. I mean, in my case,
Speaker 1: I have um a number of I've lost count and
Speaker 1: have a number of nieces and nephews and um and
Speaker 1: it would be great to have, you know, similar freedom
Speaker 1: to be able to, you know, pick them up from
Speaker 1: soccer practice. If my sister was in a bind or rights,
Speaker 1: it would be nice to know that you wouldn't lose
Speaker 1: your job because you had to take care of one
Speaker 1: of those nieces or nephews, you know, if they were
Speaker 1: sick or a sibling. It would be nice to know
Speaker 1: you had a job to come back to, or even
Speaker 1: a good friend or a podcast go host. I'm in
Speaker 1: good health, though, I assure you, and the thing is
Speaker 1: single people could use some more assistance because statistically we're
Speaker 1: the ones putting in um, you know, the volunteer hours,
Speaker 1: UM kind of keeping things running into your society run
Speaker 1: and our communities and parents. Before you turn off the
Speaker 1: podcast to say you don't understand, I don't have you know,
Speaker 1: I don't have time to do this. I'm caring for children.
Speaker 1: It's not parenthood that's the issue, according to Naomi Girsel,
Speaker 1: that's sociologists from amherste Caroline mentioned earlier. She told The
Speaker 1: New York Times, it's not having children that isolates people.
Speaker 1: It's actually the marriage down. Yeah. Once people get married,
Speaker 1: they tend to turn their energies inward. They've played the game. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they won, they got their partner and I'm not that
Speaker 1: sounds really cynical and I'm not really that cynical, but um, yeah, No,
Speaker 1: Studies have shown that once people get married, they turn
Speaker 1: their focus away from friendships, extended family and the community
Speaker 1: and turn it inward on their own family that they're building. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just for an example, this is from the Council
Speaker 1: and Contemporary Families, UM, looking at who is taking care
Speaker 1: of aging parents with the booming or the the aging boomer.
Speaker 1: Population of unmarried women take care of parents compared to
Speaker 1: six eight percent of married women. For men, it's only
Speaker 1: sixty seven percent of unmarried men compared to just thirty
Speaker 1: eight percent of married guys. And then also unmarried people
Speaker 1: are more connected with family community and have higher volunteerism
Speaker 1: rates UM. One in five take part in volunteer works
Speaker 1: such as teaching, coaching, raising money for charities, and things
Speaker 1: like that. Right, yeah, I have all sorts of time
Speaker 1: to go volunteer with projects around Atlanta, being that I'm
Speaker 1: a single person who eat lots of chocolates as I have.
Speaker 1: You know what I do too, And I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: honest with you right now, I don't. I don't volunteer enough. Well,
Speaker 1: I volunteer time at my my keyboard. Kind it you
Speaker 1: keep that economy rolling at my laptop. But I hope
Speaker 1: you get out some Kristen, that you're not just sitting
Speaker 1: in your keyboard, because if you didn't get out and
Speaker 1: have friends, you would be the odd ball. Because the
Speaker 1: statistics says that even more than I are even more
Speaker 1: UM at all educational levels, unmarried individuals not only have
Speaker 1: more friends than they're married counterparts. But they give these
Speaker 1: friends more care, both practical and emotional. So I'm here
Speaker 1: for you, thank you. And for married people, I'm here
Speaker 1: for you too, although I won't understand your problems. But
Speaker 1: here's the thing, though, the point of the podcast was
Speaker 1: to talk about this, the answer the question of whether
Speaker 1: or not single people are stigmatized. And here's the thing.
Speaker 1: Not to make us sound like, uh, you know some
Speaker 1: major stereotypes right now, Caroline, but you and I bit
Speaker 1: into the demographic where we're about to get really really
Speaker 1: stigmatized unless we put a ring on it soon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: by a ring for myself. Yeah. Being married by age
Speaker 1: and I'm about to hit eight is consistent with the
Speaker 1: normative pattern and snaff ideology snaff standing for the standard
Speaker 1: North American family, the ideal of like, you get married,
Speaker 1: you have two point five kids, you get a white
Speaker 1: pick events. So is the age for women where that's
Speaker 1: like within the normal range, and so I have gone
Speaker 1: past that. But although the average um statistically, I think
Speaker 1: according to census data, the average age for women getting
Speaker 1: married is like twenty six point seven years old. So
Speaker 1: you're I mean, like you're closer, you're closer than you think.
Speaker 1: You're just not right at that at that snaff So
Speaker 1: I feel so much better. UM. I, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: I am about I'm I'm rapidly a prow seven and
Speaker 1: so I got I'm on a like husband countdown. They
Speaker 1: don't have anyone that two months, so I can beat
Speaker 1: the odds. Um. Yeah, we're talking about single stigma and
Speaker 1: the fact that we are rapidly approaching the end of
Speaker 1: our I don't know whatever acceptable stereotypical marriage period. UM
Speaker 1: two thousand nine study by researchers at the University of
Speaker 1: Missouri and Texas Tech called and I love this. I'm
Speaker 1: not a loser. I'm not married. Let's all just look
Speaker 1: at me. UM talked with ten women who were in
Speaker 1: their thirties. Right in their thirties, UM talked to them
Speaker 1: about what it was like being single, and a lot
Speaker 1: of these women definitely said they felt stigmatized, despite the
Speaker 1: fact that they were successful in their careers had good
Speaker 1: lives otherwise. Part of this is that they were made
Speaker 1: to be aware of the changing realities as they got older.
Speaker 1: There were certain triggers that they faced, like going to weddings,
Speaker 1: going to showers, you know, but a lot of it.
Speaker 1: A big trigger is people around them, like coworkers, family members,
Speaker 1: et cetera, who were all going, so, when are you
Speaker 1: going to get married? And that just makes them more
Speaker 1: aware of the fact that they're not married. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting too that all of the
Speaker 1: women had been told by other people they were just
Speaker 1: being too picky. And it reminds me a lot of
Speaker 1: And Caroline, I don't know if you heard about this book.
Speaker 1: It came out maybe last year. Um, it got a
Speaker 1: lot of pressed. It was Laurie Gottlee wrote it and
Speaker 1: it was called Marry Him. The Case for Settling for
Speaker 1: Mr Goodenough. Yeah, it upset a lot of people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because she was basically like, hey, you know what, ladies,
Speaker 1: we're getting older. We need a little bit of stability.
Speaker 1: Just take the nice guy who you know, might not
Speaker 1: might not set your heart of flame, but he will
Speaker 1: make you a casserole sometimes. And I'm really I mean,
Speaker 1: that's really a you know, quite a nutshell to put
Speaker 1: it in, but it's it's the same kind of thing
Speaker 1: of like, hey, you know what, stopped being so picky? Um,
Speaker 1: the media has just fed us lives about independent women myths. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and also this notion that you know, you can have
Speaker 1: it all and find you know, some an amazing partner.
Speaker 1: Uh so, but just give up. Well that's like in
Speaker 1: this study that we were just talking about, um, somebody
Speaker 1: talked about their grandmother who said, well, just just go
Speaker 1: ahead and get married and have the baby. You can
Speaker 1: always divorce him later. And I feel like that's part
Speaker 1: of this really archaic might be too strong a word,
Speaker 1: but this just this notion of like you have to
Speaker 1: do things in a certain order. You go to school,
Speaker 1: you get married, you have a baby, and then everything
Speaker 1: else is just second. And then the baby goes to school, right,
Speaker 1: and then you you torment the baby about when you're
Speaker 1: going to meet somebody. Baby, but baby, baby. But speaking
Speaker 1: of unwet or speaking of children, though, now would be
Speaker 1: a good time to bring up the fact that non
Speaker 1: marital births um are becoming the warm as is. I mean,
Speaker 1: if we've got a hundred million single folks, you know,
Speaker 1: a number of whom are probably reproducing, you can imagine
Speaker 1: that the rate of unwed motherhood has gone up. And
Speaker 1: it's not just single mothers too, It's like people who
Speaker 1: are living together, adopting children or having children together. Um,
Speaker 1: And just to give you an idea from the c
Speaker 1: d c UH, sixty percent of non marital births six
Speaker 1: in two thousand seven, or two women in their twenties,
Speaker 1: significantly higher than the forty two percent level in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy because back in the seventies and before teen, pregnancy
Speaker 1: made up the large proportion of non marital births. But now,
Speaker 1: you know, folks, our rage, you're having kids and it's
Speaker 1: totally fine. And that's kind of following in the footsteps
Speaker 1: of uh Iceland, Sweden, Norway were well over one half
Speaker 1: of recent births are two women who aren't married. We're
Speaker 1: becoming so European. Um. The Business Week article ment ends
Speaker 1: along the same lines that children will live with their
Speaker 1: mom and her boyfriend before they turn sixteen, and it
Speaker 1: goes on to say that, you know, it would be
Speaker 1: better for kids to have a more stable environment to
Speaker 1: grow up in, But it seems like this is going
Speaker 1: to be so much more common than it already is. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, if studies that they've done. It reminds me
Speaker 1: of um uh, some research that came out last year
Speaker 1: looking at the child outcomes from um, you know, same
Speaker 1: sex parents, households, basically wondering whether or not, you know,
Speaker 1: if kids are raised by two men as opposed to
Speaker 1: a man and a woman, will they be fine? And
Speaker 1: the answer is yes, yes, if you have a stable
Speaker 1: dual head household, then that's the best chance for for
Speaker 1: positive outcomes. But it does not mean that you have
Speaker 1: to be married. So not all numbers are super encouraging
Speaker 1: when we're talking about being single and whatnot. Did you know,
Speaker 1: according to the census breakdown in that there are eighty
Speaker 1: eight unmarried men eighteen are over for every one hundred
Speaker 1: single women eighteen and over, there's a gap gap. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's unmarried US residents over the age of eighteen were women.
Speaker 1: But yeah, then it's like surprise when you break it
Speaker 1: down further, you know, but don't confine yourself just to
Speaker 1: the American borders. Oh well, you're right, you're right, and
Speaker 1: I have not you can go elsewhere. But speaking of
Speaker 1: men um, I have to cross the junction. God, it's okay,
Speaker 1: you would have an international site. I guess I can
Speaker 1: go to Canada. I don't know those accents, but hey,
Speaker 1: a lot of connection. Hey it was a joke, it
Speaker 1: was a joke. I have I have relatives in Minnesota. Um.
Speaker 1: But speaking of men, though, one thing that stood out
Speaker 1: to me from all the single stigma information is that
Speaker 1: a lot of times, it seems like and maybe it's
Speaker 1: just the way the research has been conducted, perhaps they
Speaker 1: said simply have not sat men down and asked him, Hey,
Speaker 1: how do you feel being the single guy at the table? Um,
Speaker 1: But it seems like this social stigma is mostly directed
Speaker 1: at women in their late twenties and thirties, and then
Speaker 1: you know, beyond that, then we're just called crazy cat
Speaker 1: ladies and forgotten about all star on our own Kathy cartoon.
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, I'm asking men out there, you know,
Speaker 1: is there do you feel any kind of single stigma?
Speaker 1: Do you feel pressure if you're in a relationship? Do
Speaker 1: you feel the pressure to get married or somehow or
Speaker 1: moving do something to take it to the next step,
Speaker 1: to somehow legitimize it in society's viewpoint, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: there definitely are stigmas out there still, Um, despite the
Speaker 1: fact that there's just this growing number of single people,
Speaker 1: people who were living together, or people who are just
Speaker 1: in long term relationships and not getting married. It's growing,
Speaker 1: you know, the numbers are getting bigger, but there's still
Speaker 1: a stigma. Well, I think we kind of hit this
Speaker 1: point to where, first of all, we live so long,
Speaker 1: so you know, I mean, you're gonna be with someone
Speaker 1: for a really long time if it really is until
Speaker 1: death to you part, and the divorce rate is so high,
Speaker 1: and there is, at least with our generation, Caroline, not
Speaker 1: this rush to find your career and find your spouse
Speaker 1: and settle down. We're delaying marriage. We're hopping around, trying
Speaker 1: out different kinds of jobs and things like that. So
Speaker 1: I'll be really interested to see, I don't know how
Speaker 1: all of this shakes out and if we will at
Speaker 1: some point kind of as a society mature out of
Speaker 1: the heteronormaty of marriage structure. Right. Yeah, it's it's I
Speaker 1: think it's gonna be hard to move past that, the stereotypes,
Speaker 1: the scripts and schema. Um. But I mean it's just
Speaker 1: becoming so common, so obviously there's a disconnect there, somewhat
Speaker 1: a cultural lag, if you will. Yeah, So the romantic
Speaker 1: sexual partner, it's just it's not the only way to
Speaker 1: be satisfied in life people. Yeah, and maybe it's time
Speaker 1: for us to reclaim the term single because that also
Speaker 1: came up a lot like a lot of single people
Speaker 1: do not like to label themselves as single because it
Speaker 1: has that kind of cultural baggage of so what do
Speaker 1: they call? And well, I don't know, maybe maybe we
Speaker 1: should just make a single cool, you know, singles the
Speaker 1: new Uh. I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: already failing at this and I can't well help us out.
Speaker 1: Let us know your thoughts, UM, and married people too.
Speaker 1: What what's your perspective on this, the growing sea of
Speaker 1: singles around you? Or do you even notice it at all?
Speaker 1: Send us an email mom Stuff at how stuff works
Speaker 1: dot com. And I've got a little email here to
Speaker 1: read right quick, Um, a little email. H. This is
Speaker 1: in regard to our episode on women in um journalism
Speaker 1: and broadcasting and uh. Patricia is offering us insight into
Speaker 1: women and broadcasting in Germany. Uh. She said, I just
Speaker 1: listened to the Women in Broadcasting podcasts and thought you
Speaker 1: might like to know that growing up in Germany during
Speaker 1: the seventies, women were almost always anchored national and international news.
Speaker 1: We watch a R D and zd F. I'm assuming
Speaker 1: those are two of the two main networks. The women
Speaker 1: were always professional and conservatively dressed. They were well groomed
Speaker 1: and very articulate, and they sat in front of simple
Speaker 1: desks with very spartan backgrounds. There was no fluff or flash.
Speaker 1: Um and I'm gonna have to watch it. She sent
Speaker 1: a link to some old school German news broadcasts, So
Speaker 1: I'm gonna check it out. And if you have any
Speaker 1: links to send our way again. Our email addresses mom
Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com. You can also
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