Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to Steph Mom
Speaker 1: never told you. Today we are joined by a coworker
Speaker 1: of mine and a general badass, Miranda. Hello. Hello Miranda,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. No, thank you,
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to be here. Could you tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit about yourself. Yeah, So, just so everyone
Speaker 1: has a bit of background on me, I've been in
Speaker 1: Atlanta for a number of years. I was a reporter
Speaker 1: with W A B. E for a couple of those years,
Speaker 1: and then I did a short stint on City Lights
Speaker 1: as a producer. So if you know Lewis frightsis that's
Speaker 1: who I worked with. Like everyone in Atlanta is nodding
Speaker 1: their everyone in Atlanta, um, and I learned that. I
Speaker 1: was like okay, um. But now I work here at
Speaker 1: how Stuff Works, and I am one of the producers
Speaker 1: and editors for Monster. I'm on the second season talking
Speaker 1: about the Zodiac Killer, and I'll be working on the
Speaker 1: third season, which we should be starting up soon. Um.
Speaker 1: And just so everybody knows, I identify as a queer
Speaker 1: film gay woman. So that's important because we are going
Speaker 1: to be talking about some l g b t Q
Speaker 1: I A stuff today as well, yeah, and I'm not
Speaker 1: sure I've ever said it on this show, but I
Speaker 1: am also queer, but I don't really date, so I
Speaker 1: feel weird like saying it, you know what I mean
Speaker 1: kind of just not I'm just not there in the
Speaker 1: dating realm and that's totally okay, thank you. I'm still
Speaker 1: kind of figuring things out and this show has been
Speaker 1: great for that because we'll do episodes like we did
Speaker 1: an episode on a pan sexual while back, and I
Speaker 1: was like, huh, anyway, I'm working on that. That's actually
Speaker 1: funny just because I've only been out a couple of years,
Speaker 1: so I'm still learning. And when I first came out,
Speaker 1: I was like, am I pan sexual? And I went
Speaker 1: through that phase first so or not phase, but checked
Speaker 1: out with that identity, checked in with right right. I
Speaker 1: was for a long time I described myself as bisexual
Speaker 1: and now yeah, I'm working on it. Listeners, but we're
Speaker 1: going to be hearing from you, Miranda and a couple
Speaker 1: of episodes because um kind of housekeeping. I guess. We're
Speaker 1: just bringing in a lot of people to talk about
Speaker 1: things that they're passionate about. UM. And it's been really
Speaker 1: cool hearing from so many different voices, and I'm really
Speaker 1: interested to get into one of the ideas that you
Speaker 1: pitched today, But first a quick trigger warning. We're going
Speaker 1: to be digging into consent and rape culture, so if
Speaker 1: that's something that is triggering for you, you might want
Speaker 1: to skip this one. Um, And I would love if
Speaker 1: you could go into why you wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: this topic, which is no means know the first time consent, yes. Yes.
Speaker 1: So I was actually having a conversation within ex co
Speaker 1: worker and we're talking about media and how it perpetuates
Speaker 1: rape culture, and she brought up a couple very popular
Speaker 1: movies and how and then it was kind of this
Speaker 1: cat and mouse where the woman would be like no,
Speaker 1: but the other person would to take that for an answer.
Speaker 1: They would continue to push until the woman said yes.
Speaker 1: It kind of clicked and I was like, oh, my goodness,
Speaker 1: when we say no, but we don't really mean it.
Speaker 1: It is a perpetuation of rape culture, and it just
Speaker 1: something I've been very passionate about and like paying attention
Speaker 1: to a lot of the media that I watch and
Speaker 1: listened to as well. So it's just become very like
Speaker 1: we want to make those changes, we also have to
Speaker 1: say no and mean no the first time. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: there's a lot that goes into that, some of which
Speaker 1: we'll be talking about today. Um because for so long
Speaker 1: it has been sort of in our heteronormative dating scripts
Speaker 1: that like oh no, um, but she really means yes.
Speaker 1: And we kind of talked about this on our in
Speaker 1: Our Stocking as Romantic episode because it is everywhere in
Speaker 1: our media, like all kinds of media. Um. And if
Speaker 1: if you're looking for more content on consent, we have
Speaker 1: done a lot a lot of episodes around it because
Speaker 1: it is so important. But in this episode today, we're
Speaker 1: specifically looking at how it relates to dating and courtship
Speaker 1: behavior and what we see in our media. To start,
Speaker 1: I think it's generally helpful if you get a definition
Speaker 1: of consent um specifically sexual consent from a mirror and
Speaker 1: webster compliance in or approval of what is done or
Speaker 1: proposed by another, specifically the voluntary agreement or acquiescence by
Speaker 1: a person of age or within requisite mental capacity, who
Speaker 1: is not under dressed or coercion, and usually who has
Speaker 1: knowledge or understanding it is what a definition um from
Speaker 1: planned hood, consent means actively agreeing to be sexual with someone.
Speaker 1: Consent let someone know that sex is wanted. Sexual activity
Speaker 1: without consent is rape or sexual assaults. And it goes
Speaker 1: on to say this means every time for all sexual activity.
Speaker 1: So I know we discussed in our episode around Rosemaries
Speaker 1: baby marital rape wasn't illegal in the United States until
Speaker 1: but it blows my mind. I know that was not
Speaker 1: that long ago. Yeah, No, not at all. Yeah, but yes,
Speaker 1: every time for all sexual activity, not just sex. Um.
Speaker 1: It has to be freely given, no pressure, no manipulation,
Speaker 1: no coercion, no drugs, no alcohol. It's reversible, which means
Speaker 1: you can change your mind at any time, informed you
Speaker 1: have all of the relevant information. Condoms, birth control, things
Speaker 1: like that, enthusiastic doing stuff that you actually want as
Speaker 1: opposed to what you think the other person wants or
Speaker 1: what your affected to do. I think you can also
Speaker 1: talk that up to performative sex right specific saying yes
Speaker 1: to one thing and no to another. There's a reason
Speaker 1: there are kinks out there. That's true. That's true. Silence
Speaker 1: is not consent. What you're wearing is not consent. It
Speaker 1: should be clear um. And it can be hard to
Speaker 1: know some of this stuff when you're becoming sexually active
Speaker 1: for the first time, especially here in the U S
Speaker 1: where we have very little in the way of good
Speaker 1: sex education. So it's worth talking about these things before, um,
Speaker 1: you engage in any activity, UM, staying in touch with
Speaker 1: yourself and your body and communicating those things, because I
Speaker 1: do think when you're first starting out, you're you don't know,
Speaker 1: you're not really sure. Yeah, yeah, and it's it makes
Speaker 1: me so angry that we get no sex ad here,
Speaker 1: really are I mean some places do. I definitely didn't know.
Speaker 1: Not in the South, for sure. It's just abs, which
Speaker 1: doesn't really work, y'all. Not all, no, no, no, I
Speaker 1: thought babies came from your belly button. I think I
Speaker 1: get pregnant by touching someone of the opposite sex. But
Speaker 1: that was like to be fairy like back in like
Speaker 1: sixth grade at a private Christian school. So okay, were
Speaker 1: you like walking around we were like a box. I
Speaker 1: did get in trouble for touching someone of the opposite sex, really, yeah,
Speaker 1: And even after school events you had have books in
Speaker 1: between you, so they were very like no touching. Yes,
Speaker 1: so it makes sense kind of I would have been
Speaker 1: in a constant state of paranoia. Goodness. Well, I guess
Speaker 1: in some ways I did have bear sex. It's really bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, Okay. Another important point. People who are drunk, high, incpacitated,
Speaker 1: passed out, or miners cannot consent. Yes, And I want
Speaker 1: to reinforce this because and I'm going to go in
Speaker 1: a little bit of a small tangent, but a drunk
Speaker 1: person cannot give consent. And I feel like this is
Speaker 1: where a lot of victim blaming and shaming comes in,
Speaker 1: because when people are really drunk, sometimes they might say yes,
Speaker 1: or their body language says yes, or they're like about it,
Speaker 1: but then they wake up the next day and they're like,
Speaker 1: that's not something I wanted to do at all. And
Speaker 1: although it's not the same, it's kind of like when
Speaker 1: you're drunk and make plans with your friend, you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that sounds great. The next day you're like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do that. Yeah, so um. But I feel
Speaker 1: like in that aspect um people are like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: victim shaming. Oh you actually didn't want it, but no,
Speaker 1: you didn't. You can't give consent. And for those of
Speaker 1: you out there who are like, well, how do you
Speaker 1: know if someone's drunk? We all know when someone is drunk,
Speaker 1: and if you're asking that, and you're also sitting there
Speaker 1: and you're drunk, the answer is always no. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a good idea to just kind of remove sex
Speaker 1: from the table alcohol sex. Wait. You know, um, if
Speaker 1: you if we go back to your story of what
Speaker 1: you're talking about earlier, why you want to talk about this. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of us have experienced this whole
Speaker 1: thing of saying no, and then it's kind of seen
Speaker 1: as playing hard to get. So shall we say? Um?
Speaker 1: There does seem to not only be a no means yes,
Speaker 1: but no is a flirting technique, and it only means
Speaker 1: no the second or the third or the tenth time. Um,
Speaker 1: But it can't possibly mean no the first time. That's
Speaker 1: not how this works. Yeah, I know growing up by
Speaker 1: a definitely thought no. I was like, oh no, and
Speaker 1: it's really cute and I'm like no, no, yeah, And
Speaker 1: I know when someone tells me no, I'm a meat,
Speaker 1: like okay, back off. And I was telling you this before,
Speaker 1: but I had a recent X and we're about to
Speaker 1: have sex and she was like, no, I want to
Speaker 1: watch or listen to whatever songs she wanted to listen to.
Speaker 1: So I was like, okay, and then I realized orry.
Speaker 1: She let me know like that was her being coy
Speaker 1: and she didn't really mean stop, but I was turned off.
Speaker 1: I was like, no, you said no, that's a no.
Speaker 1: It's a hard one, right. Yeah. And I, especially in
Speaker 1: my younger dating years, like college, I would witness a
Speaker 1: lot um friends of mine kind of being like, oh, no, no,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a weird thing. It's almost like when
Speaker 1: you compliment someone, this is so like barely related. But
Speaker 1: when you compliment someone and they're like happy, but they say, oh,
Speaker 1: this is a thing. Oh I got this from the
Speaker 1: bargain bin. It kind of gave me that similar vibe
Speaker 1: of like, and I I was somebody who went through
Speaker 1: that stage two of just being because I had internalized
Speaker 1: all this stuff that my value was, my my looks,
Speaker 1: just being so flattered that anyone would like, oh I
Speaker 1: didn't want to dance something. No, And I'm embarrassed about it.
Speaker 1: But I do think that is something that as an adult,
Speaker 1: thank god, I've gotten away from it. But I think
Speaker 1: that plays into a little bit what we're talking about today. Absolutely, yeah, jeez,
Speaker 1: I try not to think about those years to offen. Oh,
Speaker 1: and just to be clear, a lot of what we're
Speaker 1: talking about today isn't specifically about penetrative sex. UM situations
Speaker 1: don't always escalate to rape. So I'm going to take
Speaker 1: a second and define sexual assault as defined by RAIN,
Speaker 1: which is, if you don't know, the nation's largest anti
Speaker 1: sexual violence organization UM. They define sexual assault as attempted rape,
Speaker 1: fondling or unwanted sexual touching, forcing a victim to perform
Speaker 1: sexual acts, penetration of the victim's body, also called rape. UM.
Speaker 1: I do have a little bit of an issue that
Speaker 1: they're defining rape as penetrative sex, not all sexes, but
Speaker 1: you get the idea, UM. But to boil it down,
Speaker 1: consent should be given for any and all physical touch.
Speaker 1: Grabbing people are simply touching them in general without their permission,
Speaker 1: is still touching them without consent. Yeah, um, And we
Speaker 1: are going to be focusing on sort of this like
Speaker 1: in the realm of relationships. But it's also a lot
Speaker 1: of what we're saying, no means no. The first time
Speaker 1: you could put that in context of like this whole
Speaker 1: mess that's happening right now with the State of the
Speaker 1: Union and Nancy Pelosi is like no, Donald Trump and
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's like no, but come on, no, right, no, right, wait,
Speaker 1: She's like no, I mean no means no. And also, um,
Speaker 1: as a lot of listeners know, I, UM, IM prone
Speaker 1: to cosplay at events that it is acceptable to Uh.
Speaker 1: This is something that comes up a lot because the
Speaker 1: second you're in a character addressed as a character that
Speaker 1: people love, then it seems that and in some ways
Speaker 1: I understand, but you also have to remember this is
Speaker 1: still a human person. But it's almost like this character
Speaker 1: that you love and you just want to touch them
Speaker 1: and take pictures with them. You still have to ask,
Speaker 1: you still have to get consent. It's a whole conversation
Speaker 1: that's happening in that community right now. And that's actually
Speaker 1: something that UM, I try to be very proactive with
Speaker 1: because I used to just take pictures of people, but
Speaker 1: now I try to like ask, okay, if I take
Speaker 1: your picture, that means I'm hard to get any pictures
Speaker 1: that I'm okay with that. Okay. It's so very and
Speaker 1: I'm sure they appreciate it though, yeah, yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think it's just polite. It's just polite mirandom okay. And
Speaker 1: one other problem is a lot of articles that we
Speaker 1: both found about this were very heteronormative, and this is
Speaker 1: the case for most episodes we do. Unfortunately, Um, it
Speaker 1: is changing, but slowly. Just science, good science takes while.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah, but consents for everyone and everyone needs
Speaker 1: to learn about it. Yeah. And because also in my
Speaker 1: research I had a hard time finding articles, even reaching
Speaker 1: out to people within the community. Um, you get to
Speaker 1: hear personal anecdote a good person. And we will get
Speaker 1: into some of those personal anecdotes. But first we're going
Speaker 1: to pause for a quick break for word from our
Speaker 1: sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Okay, so one
Speaker 1: thing we wanted to touch on here is something that
Speaker 1: we hear a lot of when this conversation comes up. Um, annoying,
Speaker 1: but it kills the romance. You're killing flirtation, Miranda. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's not for TA, shouldn't. That's always bothered me
Speaker 1: is I'm like, that's only flirting for you. For me,
Speaker 1: this is terrible thing that's happening. Yeah, No, this is
Speaker 1: uncomfortable now, right, but we've seen it happen over and
Speaker 1: over again. Roman Polanski, who I know so much about now,
Speaker 1: he said that, like the me Too movement is killing romance.
Speaker 1: Those all the women in France that signed that letter
Speaker 1: saying me too is killing romance. This is something that
Speaker 1: we hear a lot, and I don't understand. I guess
Speaker 1: I've just never thought that was fun. I don't know
Speaker 1: if there are women that do. I'm sure there are,
Speaker 1: but not for me. No, not for me either. It's
Speaker 1: actually the more that people ask or ask for consent,
Speaker 1: even little things like holding my hand or giving me
Speaker 1: a kiss or anything, I really like it. It actually
Speaker 1: was like, oh, thank you. Yeah, well, because then you
Speaker 1: have to check in with yourself and be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would like that, yeah, as opposed to like, whoa,
Speaker 1: oh do I want to hold the hand? I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been I've been called off guard it. I I
Speaker 1: went to a birthday party last year and this woman
Speaker 1: was actively pursuing me, and I wasn't sure about it
Speaker 1: and a kind of hard when it's third birthday party. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they just go in to kiss you and you
Speaker 1: get real weird and awkward and nos, like this is
Speaker 1: not really what I wanted, right, Yeah, it's not romantic
Speaker 1: to me. Thanks for the attention, but I didn't want it. No,
Speaker 1: it was really fun. Um A while ago, I was
Speaker 1: having conversation with a lot of my male friends, and
Speaker 1: I was saying, how I've never ever thought the idea
Speaker 1: of a public engagement was romantic. I hate it. I
Speaker 1: think that's terrifying, like stressful. If you if we agree beforehand, okay,
Speaker 1: but if it's just like a surprise in public, we
Speaker 1: might break up bresn and there, because you clearly don't
Speaker 1: know me very well. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
Speaker 1: I'm like, the cancer is no, I'm sorry, Like that's
Speaker 1: I don't like that. That's too much. And it seen
Speaker 1: as this romantic, great romantic thing, and everybody that sees
Speaker 1: it is on the side of the person pros and
Speaker 1: like say yes, say yes, which is part of the
Speaker 1: whole problem here that we're gonna get into a bit more.
Speaker 1: But we're talking about consent. Yeah, we often hear that
Speaker 1: you'll break this romantic moment by getting consent or getting
Speaker 1: verbally rejected is too painful, So why even Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: heard that before, as a lot of us know. Probably
Speaker 1: this conversation around consent is especially crucial on college campuses.
Speaker 1: Some universities have moved from no means no campaigns to
Speaker 1: yes means yes campaigns. Advocates of this approach argue that
Speaker 1: it reframes sex more positively and puts the onus on
Speaker 1: the potential perpetrator as opposed to the potential victim. I say,
Speaker 1: just listen to the other person what they're saying. No,
Speaker 1: because yes, me, yes, yes, yeah, all the above l
Speaker 1: g B t Q is still off out of this.
Speaker 1: An account from a gay young man attending university put
Speaker 1: it this way. As a single gay male, the expectation
Speaker 1: is that you're always ready for it. For men, there's
Speaker 1: never a question of yes means yes because yes is
Speaker 1: always assumed to be the answer. And I have heard
Speaker 1: that something similar to that from male gay male friends
Speaker 1: of mine. UM, so that is something that we definitely
Speaker 1: need to be paying attention to as well. I've heard
Speaker 1: that as well. And also, like I don't know if
Speaker 1: like lesbians or gay women, depending on how you identify, um,
Speaker 1: it's always kind of somewhat of the same thing. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: because women are hyper sexualized. I mean, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of different people who are hyper sexualized, but especially it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: well women specifically, so it's like, of course, right, yeah.
Speaker 1: In October, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology m i T
Speaker 1: conducted a survey on the student population about sexual assault
Speaker 1: and the results were extremely telling. Of the participants, five
Speaker 1: percent of men and fifteen percent of women reported experiencing
Speaker 1: sexual assault assault defined as unwanted contact from touching to
Speaker 1: penetration that involved force or threats of incompacitation. Of those
Speaker 1: quote said they didn't think it was serious enough to
Speaker 1: officially report, and forty four percent that they felt quote
Speaker 1: at least partly responsible for what happened. Overall, of men
Speaker 1: and fifteen percent of women agreed that a drunk person
Speaker 1: who has assaulted is at least somewhat responsible, and more
Speaker 1: than half of all students agreed that rape and sexual
Speaker 1: assault can happen unintentionally, especially if alcohol is involved. And further,
Speaker 1: one third of the students surveyed agreed that rape happens
Speaker 1: because men can get carried away in sexual situations once
Speaker 1: they've started. This is from a global mail report UM
Speaker 1: reporting on the survey, and all of this is very
Speaker 1: very unsettling to me. So I have a really I
Speaker 1: mean even issue follow that. But that last line, I
Speaker 1: feel like really toes that boys will be boys excuse
Speaker 1: and that is extremely unsettling the fact that people were saying, well,
Speaker 1: boys will be boys on both ends. I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: that's not how that works. No, like the idea that
Speaker 1: you get carried away and what a way to put it.
Speaker 1: Let's little like I got carried away and murdered that person.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean I should just get a four
Speaker 1: dollar fine and be let go. No, I don't even
Speaker 1: really need to go to prison or anything about that.
Speaker 1: I just got carried aways. That's infuriating. Yeah, it's really upsetting.
Speaker 1: And these are um smart young young people men and
Speaker 1: women saying saying this and again when I, like I said,
Speaker 1: I had problematic ideas around dating courtship in college too. Yes,
Speaker 1: So here's hoping that as better education and have we
Speaker 1: have these conversations that we can move away from that mindset.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's a hard one. Yeah. Another interesting point here.
Speaker 1: Even though an estimated nine out of ten women who
Speaker 1: are raped are raped by someone they know, throughout most
Speaker 1: of the United States, rape is defined as an act
Speaker 1: that requires physical force or in other words, no means
Speaker 1: no isn't enough if you were to take it to
Speaker 1: court all of the time, which is yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't see the look on my face right now.
Speaker 1: It's not it's withering. I'm shrinking back a little bit
Speaker 1: from the microphone. It's not me, marand I've changed things
Speaker 1: if I could. Um. This is the case in the
Speaker 1: American Law Institute started modifying the rape statute. State legislatures
Speaker 1: used as examples and models. So oh wow. Yeah. What
Speaker 1: else is very very amatic is this Marie Claire article
Speaker 1: called five reasons No might mean yes, and it is
Speaker 1: as bad and probably worse as it sounds. Also want
Speaker 1: to say it's written by a man. Um, but here
Speaker 1: are the reasons women say they don't like their boyfriends
Speaker 1: at first. Interesting with the examples, like I thought he
Speaker 1: was creepy at first, or he grew on me. I
Speaker 1: thought he was a loser, Okay, to be fair, I
Speaker 1: was engaged years ago. Okay, I thought he was creepy.
Speaker 1: I didn't think he was creepy. I didn't think it
Speaker 1: was creepy. I thought he was ugly. Oh okay, but
Speaker 1: that changed. Yeah, so he wasn't creepy, but his smiles
Speaker 1: while I stayed around. But that doesn't creepy. I don't
Speaker 1: know now, I mean, there are a couple of things
Speaker 1: points to be made here. One if someone is like
Speaker 1: I thought she was a loser, I'm not entirely sure
Speaker 1: that's a great basis for a relationship. It could be,
Speaker 1: but so and secondly, this to me is like every
Speaker 1: sitcom that was on TV and maybe still is. I
Speaker 1: just don't watch that much TV anymore. Of like the
Speaker 1: formula beautiful, then woman who's smart and got a job,
Speaker 1: and then like dopey guy who's like a little weird yeah,
Speaker 1: and he's a yeah, no, definitely, it's it's still a thing, yeah,
Speaker 1: I And and it always he grew on me as
Speaker 1: a great That's what happens a lot in those shows,
Speaker 1: Like he persists and eventually she's like, oh, all along,
Speaker 1: he was right here. I knew there's a reason I
Speaker 1: don't like sitcoms. Yeah, there's a specific brand that I remember.
Speaker 1: It was like the same exact story pretty much every time.
Speaker 1: Tempal ties exactly. The second reason in this article, men
Speaker 1: love the thrill of the chase. And I'm gonna include
Speaker 1: this whole paragraph because it's so mind blowing to me.
Speaker 1: We know that you know that we like the thrill
Speaker 1: of the chase. So if you're saying no, we tell
Speaker 1: ourselves that you're just playing hard to get. In fact,
Speaker 1: we may enjoy hearing no at first because it intensifies
Speaker 1: the challenge. It means you care enough to play hard
Speaker 1: to get. Those of us who can't take a hint
Speaker 1: or want to look at our failure in a positive
Speaker 1: light might keep trying until we know we are officially rejected.
Speaker 1: It's sad when it turns out that no was indeed
Speaker 1: no and not part of the game. Mm hmmm, I
Speaker 1: have a lot of looks. Yeah you do. Oh, I
Speaker 1: mean there's so much there. Oh, look at our failure
Speaker 1: in a positive light. M hmmm. Yeah. This article is
Speaker 1: making it about him and not taking at all into
Speaker 1: any sideration why the other person is saying no. Right.
Speaker 1: I do think it's pretty telling when he writes that, um,
Speaker 1: that you might enjoy hearing not at first because it
Speaker 1: intensifies the challenge and means you care enough, you care
Speaker 1: enough to play hard to get. Because I do think
Speaker 1: there's that weird thing of you don't want a woman
Speaker 1: who's easy, uh like, because that means she says yes
Speaker 1: to a lot of men maybe and I don't want that.
Speaker 1: And yeah, you're making another great face I've mentioned before
Speaker 1: on this show, and I swear I don't mean it
Speaker 1: to sound braggy, but I get asked out a lot
Speaker 1: and I'm not interested in dating, and a part of
Speaker 1: me thinks it's this like there's this sense like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's saying no. She's saying no to a lot of people.
Speaker 1: It's a challenge and I'm like no, it's like literally
Speaker 1: no chance. I think by this article, we should just
Speaker 1: like have a stamp or something, just just as officially
Speaker 1: rejected and that way, you know, off the bat done.
Speaker 1: I like it. A couple years ago, my boyfriend at
Speaker 1: the time got me these cards printed out that said
Speaker 1: she's not farting, she's just being nice, because he got
Speaker 1: so annoyed that people like he'd be standing right. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true. That is another problem that I would love
Speaker 1: to come back to you. But this whole thing where
Speaker 1: I'm just a conversational, nice person, I have that problem.
Speaker 1: People think I'm flat. I'm not. I'm really just being
Speaker 1: nice and taking an interest in another human being. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It almost makes me sad because it's like people listening
Speaker 1: to you that it can't be anything else than she
Speaker 1: must be interested, we must date. I don't know it's
Speaker 1: so so much of an outlier that you're thinking someone
Speaker 1: being nice to you shouldn't blur that line, y'all. Alright.
Speaker 1: The third reason is we've been rewarded for campaigns. Quote,
Speaker 1: I've grown accustomed to overcoming obstacles such as early knows
Speaker 1: to get to where I want to be. So is
Speaker 1: this like I've had a lot of freelancers or people
Speaker 1: who have risen in their industries and they say that
Speaker 1: when they start out, they are A story I've heard
Speaker 1: is like they put the rejection letter on the wall,
Speaker 1: and every time they get one, they put it on
Speaker 1: the wall until they get to where they're at and like,
Speaker 1: look at all this stuff, But that doesn't equate to dating. No.
Speaker 1: That is an interesting point though, because in our culture,
Speaker 1: we do hear the story. And I think it's very rare,
Speaker 1: but we hear this story a lot, as if it
Speaker 1: happens all the time. That like I kept persisting until
Speaker 1: this company hired me, Like they said no, and I
Speaker 1: went out and did this wild thing and they were
Speaker 1: so impressed. And I guess you can kind of see
Speaker 1: that to you of this like escalating, and we see
Speaker 1: it in movies, but we see in real life of
Speaker 1: like she said no, but then I'll go get the
Speaker 1: flowers and the band and then she'll have to see
Speaker 1: it boom box outside the window, call the police. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The fourth reason knows and yeses aren't always solid in
Speaker 1: the beginning, and the five we can turn an unsure
Speaker 1: no into a yes quote. So, given the amount of
Speaker 1: times we have to convince, change minds, turn the tides,
Speaker 1: and overcome obstacles, we've learned that sometimes no can mean yes. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is just a really gross article. It's really bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember when I read it, I had a reaction
Speaker 1: of parity. Also, no no means no, yes means yes,
Speaker 1: And if you're not sure, you can say maybe it's true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think maybe these are vastly underused. That's true. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean keep pursuing. Let them make up
Speaker 1: their mind, right right. It's not a game to be one,
Speaker 1: it's not you're not entering into a negotiation. No, because
Speaker 1: it's also viewing something a surprize. Yeah, and that's not
Speaker 1: what a healthy relationship should be. And I would hope
Speaker 1: that's what we're striving for. Healthy relations Um. So I
Speaker 1: know again, like there's not a lot of information in
Speaker 1: the queer community. But I did find an account of
Speaker 1: um of this woman who was a student at a
Speaker 1: Midwestern university, and she talks about getting sexually assaulted. Her
Speaker 1: and this other woman. We're watching a movie on a couch,
Speaker 1: which is you know, something people do who are dating,
Speaker 1: and the other woman started to assault her. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have sex, and um, the student said, you know, said no,
Speaker 1: and she tried to physically stop certain things, and she
Speaker 1: just wasn't strong enough to overpower and so you know,
Speaker 1: that's like a clear no, and someone's still not listening.
Speaker 1: But when she went to authorities, they didn't view it
Speaker 1: as an actual rape because it was another woman, and
Speaker 1: they were like, there's no penis. We don't understand what's happening.
Speaker 1: And even within her own community, like she had other
Speaker 1: women being like that didn't really happen, that's not actually whatever.
Speaker 1: So it's unfortunate. Like, as we're talking about consent, no
Speaker 1: means in the first time, yes means yes, But even
Speaker 1: when you're saying no in certain communities, it's still like, oh,
Speaker 1: but you didn't really mean it, right. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: really big that is a huge problem that like you
Speaker 1: were saying we need to redefine what rate encompasses. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's a lot more than what it currently how it
Speaker 1: currently stands, and even in doing research for their even
Speaker 1: in Georgia, looking at the laws, it's still is specific
Speaker 1: about penis. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's very disheartening, um, especially
Speaker 1: like state laws, because you think, well, obviously this thing
Speaker 1: is wrong, and perhaps it will be it will still
Speaker 1: be punished, but the law might not like be there.
Speaker 1: It's it's really strange to me how many things that
Speaker 1: are still really bad um, still prevalent, dominant, even if
Speaker 1: we're not aware. Yeah, yeah, and I mean I I'm
Speaker 1: not unaware that we have problems like at all, but
Speaker 1: there's some that I've like marital rape. My goodness, I
Speaker 1: would assume we've been a lot further away than that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Also, because there are a lot of statistics
Speaker 1: you know about heteronormative or hetero couples, I did bring
Speaker 1: up a few just for the l g B t
Speaker 1: q I A community, just to make people aware that
Speaker 1: it's this, this is a problem. Although the study that
Speaker 1: I'm going to cite from focuses mainly on LGB people,
Speaker 1: but the CDCs National Intimate partner and sexual Violence survey
Speaker 1: from showed forty four percent of lesbians in sixty one
Speaker 1: percent of bisexual women experience rape, physical violence, are stalking
Speaker 1: by an intimate partner. Forty six percent of bisexual women
Speaker 1: have been raped of bisexual women have been raped by
Speaker 1: an intimate partner. And although it's not broken down, the
Speaker 1: US transgender survey done by National Center for Transgender Equality
Speaker 1: found that forty seven percent of transgender people are sexually
Speaker 1: assaulted at some point in their lifetime. There are now
Speaker 1: these statistics other than transgender survey are compared to UMIs
Speaker 1: hetero woman. Uh, you know, but I don't really like that,
Speaker 1: but you know, there's there's not as much data out there. Also,
Speaker 1: to be clear, this data's old UM and only focuses
Speaker 1: on LGB people, so it doesn't take intoccount all orientations.
Speaker 1: But I just wanted to kind of give a glimpse.
Speaker 1: This is still an incredibly rampant problem, even though it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, consent mainstream media, like it's not shown the same. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and another thing always we're taking into account when we're
Speaker 1: talking about stuff like this is um the most underreported crime.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's probably even worse. It's definitely worse. Definitely worse.
Speaker 1: Also because if you take a little bit of a
Speaker 1: side note, but when you take constent out of it,
Speaker 1: there's also some of us just hate crime too, so
Speaker 1: you have to take that into account. So it does
Speaker 1: get a little bit more complex in that aspect. A
Speaker 1: couple of weekends ago, I was I was harassed by
Speaker 1: a woman. It's just the second time it's happened to me.
Speaker 1: And it was very strange, like I almost was. I
Speaker 1: had a surreal dream, like am I asleep? Where am I?
Speaker 1: It didn't help that I was at a bar that
Speaker 1: was very very strange, like it had that vibe of
Speaker 1: like I am in twin Peaks right now? Yeah, like yeah,
Speaker 1: And I remember just I turned around and said, I'm
Speaker 1: going home to like everybody, everybody in the bar, They're
Speaker 1: all like, okah, cool. I don't think people knew standing
Speaker 1: women could be just as aggressive, sometimes even more so.
Speaker 1: And it's it's a little frightening. I mean it is frightening,
Speaker 1: not a little, it's frightening. Yeah. Yeah, Um, I was
Speaker 1: very just taking it back by the whole thing. Um.
Speaker 1: Something else that is frightening is our media and rape culture. Um,
Speaker 1: I was reading a Huppope piece about it, and the
Speaker 1: author of it encouraged everyone to stop for a minute
Speaker 1: and think about the term rape culture. The definition of
Speaker 1: culture is by the way the customs arts, social institutions
Speaker 1: and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group.
Speaker 1: So rape culture it Yeah, it is worth pausing to
Speaker 1: think about how terrible that is. Um. Peggy Reeves Sandy
Speaker 1: wrote in a woman scorned quote, rape is an expression
Speaker 1: of social ideology of male dominance we live today, she asserts,
Speaker 1: in a climate that encourages male sexual license and violence
Speaker 1: against women and discourages female sexual autonomy and agency. Wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's yeah, and again we see this everywhere. You You
Speaker 1: were like, my, uh, I'm kind of in a weird
Speaker 1: bubble of like very particular media entertainment. But I'm not
Speaker 1: in the like popular bubble now, I like thrive. I'm like,
Speaker 1: what's I am ashamed to admit? I watched two seasons
Speaker 1: of like forty five minute eight episode per season. Anyways,
Speaker 1: Huluse show on Sunday. That was my whole day. I
Speaker 1: mean that sounds like a lovely day. Um. Before this
Speaker 1: is another thing, before we get into all of your
Speaker 1: your expertise in media knowledge. M I do want to
Speaker 1: say that I had to learn a lesson with UM.
Speaker 1: I'm someone who likes to just do stuff all the time.
Speaker 1: So if you say I've always wanted to do this,
Speaker 1: I'll be like, let's do it. And I've had to
Speaker 1: learn that when people say like they want to come
Speaker 1: over and watch a movie, I would be like, Okay, cool,
Speaker 1: let's watch that movie. I've never seen it. They definitely
Speaker 1: met something else. And it makes me sad because now
Speaker 1: if somebody says I would like to come over and
Speaker 1: watch this movie, I'll be like, maybe not. We're talking
Speaker 1: about Netflix and show not necessarily, but yes, okay, okay.
Speaker 1: Just like the whole idea of me thinking I just
Speaker 1: want to watch this movie, it is not it meant
Speaker 1: something else. Yeah, yeah, no, I get what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I have to be very specific. Yeah, unless it's like
Speaker 1: a good friend or something where it's let's watch this movie,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh yeah, yeah. But I've even said before
Speaker 1: to somebody as long as we're doing I was just friends.
Speaker 1: Didn't stop him anyway. So let's talk about some of
Speaker 1: these examples. UM. One that when we were writing this
Speaker 1: was really blowing up in the news. Was the Netflix
Speaker 1: show you? Yes? Yes, I actually when I started researching this,
Speaker 1: I this is the first article that popped up, and
Speaker 1: I went home and had to binge it because I
Speaker 1: was like, I need to know what I'm talking about. UM,
Speaker 1: so if you haven't seen you, I'm sorry they're going
Speaker 1: to be spoilers because it's important. Um, but basically, have
Speaker 1: you have you seen it? No? But I my phone
Speaker 1: was like, all these people think the guy is sexy,
Speaker 1: but he's really creepy. Yeah, and even he's had to
Speaker 1: come out and be like, hey, no, you're not supposed
Speaker 1: to root for my character. He's bad, so he plays Um.
Speaker 1: The two main characters are the guys Joe Goldberg in
Speaker 1: the show, and her name is Guinevere Back in the show,
Speaker 1: and basically he is stalking her to get her to
Speaker 1: date him. But the reason why it's a huge issue
Speaker 1: right now is because of the way the show is done,
Speaker 1: So they tell you the story through his perspective, so
Speaker 1: you hear him while you see things going on, and
Speaker 1: like it's like, oh, because everyone calls her back, Um,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I know it's best for you, Beck,
Speaker 1: I'm going to take care of you. I'm going to whatever.
Speaker 1: So even though there's a scene of him jacking off
Speaker 1: and the bushes across from her apartment with her like
Speaker 1: window open, people still like it's like people gloss over it.
Speaker 1: It didn't happen, and um, but it makes him seem
Speaker 1: like he's sweet and endearing. But it's like, no, he's stalking.
Speaker 1: He takes her phone, he breaks into her a place,
Speaker 1: He does all this stuff but simultaneously. And this is
Speaker 1: where I think people struggle a bit. He has his
Speaker 1: next door neighbors. Are these this mom and her boyfriend
Speaker 1: who are who fight. He's abusive, but she's also strung
Speaker 1: out on drugs, and so the kid is always in
Speaker 1: the hallway by himself, and so Joe is always like
Speaker 1: bringing the kid books, trying to take care of the kid. Whatever.
Speaker 1: So it's like, here's this like sweet side and it
Speaker 1: is a little it's a little hard, like when I
Speaker 1: was watching Adi sit there and be like no, Miranda.
Speaker 1: He's bad. And at the very end, he does end
Speaker 1: up murdering his girlfriend, so he's a murderer as well,
Speaker 1: and he also murders her best friend. And he also
Speaker 1: murders a couple of people. Yeah he sounds bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's very very bad, but they make the character likable
Speaker 1: and that's why I like people. Like, I know it's bad,
Speaker 1: but it's like whatever, because the things he's doing is romanticized. It's, oh,
Speaker 1: but let me take care of you so you don't
Speaker 1: have to do it, or let me do whatever. But
Speaker 1: it's extreme emotional manipulation as well as stalking and like
Speaker 1: even though as far as consent goes, like when she
Speaker 1: does say no about something, he'll listen, but then he'll
Speaker 1: do some tactic to try to get back in there.
Speaker 1: Yeah that huh, that makes me think of Um, I've
Speaker 1: put a lot of an almost embarrassing amount of thought
Speaker 1: into things like twilights and why why are we women's
Speaker 1: attracted to pretty much like monster stocky behavior, And I
Speaker 1: think it might be a couple of things. But romanticizing
Speaker 1: the fact that this person loves you so much they'll
Speaker 1: do anything, and it's like that, it's like romanticizing boys
Speaker 1: will be boys. Essentially, it's saying like, oh, well, he
Speaker 1: did this terrible thing, but it's because he couldn't help
Speaker 1: it because he loves me. No, No, it's bad. Also,
Speaker 1: like I noticed, like if you really really like someone
Speaker 1: and I do something kind of weird, you tend to
Speaker 1: let it slide because it's like, oh, but if you
Speaker 1: don't like someone as much and they do the exact
Speaker 1: same thing, then you're automatically like that's creepy. So it's like, well,
Speaker 1: we were talking about how you can't find a good
Speaker 1: example of well, not too many good examples of like
Speaker 1: this happening for a female if it was reversed swaps.
Speaker 1: And I also I've I have read a lot of
Speaker 1: fan fiction. You see stuff like this all the time.
Speaker 1: Fan fiction. Fan fiction is like the place people go
Speaker 1: to figure out their sexuality. What's for me anyway? Um,
Speaker 1: So it's just like kind of disheartening, and I hope
Speaker 1: that people work through those things. But I also think
Speaker 1: that the whole like monster aspect is because that for
Speaker 1: so long we have been taught as women that we
Speaker 1: have no sexual agencies. So there's something about like, I
Speaker 1: the female character can't say yes, like she doesn't know
Speaker 1: how because she's you, and you don't know how to
Speaker 1: say yes. So you want this like monster character that
Speaker 1: loves you so much, and boys will be boys, And
Speaker 1: it's really terrible narrative and I can also see it
Speaker 1: factoring in desirability, like if they're willing to do anything
Speaker 1: for you, you're that much more desirable, exactly like the
Speaker 1: form of power. But really it's incredibly disempowering for oh everybody. Yeah. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of thoughts on I would love
Speaker 1: to do an episode on like women attracted to monsters, um,
Speaker 1: but it reminds me I have This year, I brought
Speaker 1: on a friend who was like well versed in Christmas
Speaker 1: movies and holiday movies, and we were discussing, um, baby,
Speaker 1: it's cold outside, and on the seth Meyers show Amber
Speaker 1: Rough ended like an update of it, and she was like,
Speaker 1: I really can't say and the guy said, okay, Oh
Speaker 1: I like that. Actually great. I love that. Another example,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen this movie even though I was on
Speaker 1: the Ryan Gosling train when I was nine years old.
Speaker 1: I wrote up a letter and I dotted all the
Speaker 1: eyes with hearts because he was on this show called
Speaker 1: Young Hercles. So don't even be talking to me about
Speaker 1: no Ryan Gosling. But no, I've not seen the Notebook movie.
Speaker 1: I couldn't get over Young Hercules. He is always to me.
Speaker 1: I'm so like because this is like the society's a
Speaker 1: banome of like romance. Like, Okay, so I hope y'all
Speaker 1: have seen The Notebook. I think they have, but I'm
Speaker 1: sorry because i think I'm literally the only one. So yes,
Speaker 1: the Notebook is unfortunately also a really big component of
Speaker 1: perpetuating rape culture and not listening when someone says no
Speaker 1: the first time. Uh. And it's specifically the main like
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of articles about this, so you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure this isn't the first time you've heard it.
Speaker 1: But Ryan Gosling's character when he's hanging he's hanging off
Speaker 1: a ferris wheel. Rachel mcadam's character has already told him
Speaker 1: now um, and so they're out of fair and he
Speaker 1: thinks it would be romantic too, as like the ferris wheels,
Speaker 1: moving to climb up on the ferris wheel, which could
Speaker 1: have hurt everybody, and then to hang down with two
Speaker 1: hands in front of her, asking her out and she
Speaker 1: says no, and he's like, if you don't go out
Speaker 1: with me, I'm going to drop and he goes down
Speaker 1: to one hand and basically coerces her and just saying yes.
Speaker 1: And it is seen as a huge romantic gesture and
Speaker 1: it's not no. No, was the like crowd on the
Speaker 1: Ferris Wheeld where they're like say yes, I'm sure they were. Honestly,
Speaker 1: it's been a while since I watched it, but I
Speaker 1: do that one specific scene and it's yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it was seen as like oh my goodness and like no, no,
Speaker 1: just I would be very afraid or out of that
Speaker 1: person what they would try to do. Yeah, that's like
Speaker 1: red flag from emotional manipulation. You know. I wonder if, um,
Speaker 1: because if I watch a movie movies from like my
Speaker 1: parents generation, when I go home, it's usually uncomfortable because
Speaker 1: it is in this like oh wow, that's not okay anymore. Um,
Speaker 1: but it was romantic. I wonder if, like a couple
Speaker 1: decades from now, people watching a notebook and be like, whoa,
Speaker 1: that is not romantic. I can't believe they thought that.
Speaker 1: See how it ages? Yeah, that is interesting. I wonder
Speaker 1: what people will say because people have pointed this out before,
Speaker 1: but it still doesn't seem to have lost its stem
Speaker 1: so to say yeah, yeah. Um. We we talked about
Speaker 1: it a little bit in um Our Stocking and the
Speaker 1: Romance episode. We also talked about say anything songs. Blurred
Speaker 1: Lines is the perfect example. Yes, um, also my one
Speaker 1: of my least favorite songs ever. Every breath you take
Speaker 1: that song, I thought I was could be like the
Speaker 1: first time I heard it, it's like eight years old,
Speaker 1: I was like, this is not good. He's gonna he's
Speaker 1: gonna kill her. There's no one else concerned. But it's
Speaker 1: seen as a romantic you can't you can't go on
Speaker 1: with outer. Oh no, that's no, that's terrifying. It is, um.
Speaker 1: But the point being this is everywhere, we see it
Speaker 1: all the time, and it normalizes rape culture. Um. And
Speaker 1: culturally we have set these expectations that men are entitled
Speaker 1: to attention from women and see Cardi b an offset.
Speaker 1: I I do know some of the pop culture that's happening. Um,
Speaker 1: cat calling. I still want to get a shirt that
Speaker 1: says it's just my face. For how many times I've
Speaker 1: been told by a man, which is several a week,
Speaker 1: that i'd like pretty or very smiled. I get that
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, yeah, that women actually want the
Speaker 1: attention and that they're playing to get. I just want
Speaker 1: you to leave me alone. Yeah, I really just want
Speaker 1: to go about my day, that's all um. And there.
Speaker 1: We even see this in popular sayings like don't take
Speaker 1: no for an answer, go get her, Tiger, or the
Speaker 1: plot of video games where peaches your freaking prize. We
Speaker 1: don't respect women, we sexualize them, we view them as objects.
Speaker 1: It is a huge problem. Yes, yeah, yes, I think
Speaker 1: every episode we end with this is a social problem
Speaker 1: of not respecting women. And it's infiltrated our systems and
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to change everything from the bottom of up.
Speaker 1: It's a big gass, but we need to get about
Speaker 1: doing it. Yeah, one day at a time. Um. In
Speaker 1: the episode Bridget and I did around stalking being romanticized,
Speaker 1: one of the many popular pieces of media when it
Speaker 1: comes to a man courting women is that, and that is,
Speaker 1: unfortunately the story we've seen most of the time. The
Speaker 1: formula is man wants woman, woman says no. Man persist,
Speaker 1: woman says no. Keepers this harder man is rewarded with woman.
Speaker 1: M hm. Also the term that he's rewarded Yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I mean that especially oh like the eighties, I mean
Speaker 1: sixteen Candles. Yeah, Revenge of the Nerves. It's all bad,
Speaker 1: it really is. Um. But yeah, again, because women are
Speaker 1: objects with no agency, that it's just this, oh, wear
Speaker 1: down and she'll be my care for your viewing pleasure
Speaker 1: hashtag trophy wife shirts another shirt to be made. Um.
Speaker 1: And another thing is kind of going along with a
Speaker 1: lot of what we've been saying, is that women are
Speaker 1: kind of expected to resist sexual encounters and to have
Speaker 1: less of an input on the ultimate decision. And this
Speaker 1: is it's such a big problem because I mean, no
Speaker 1: means no, Yes means yes, but I feel like for
Speaker 1: women it's difficult to say yes as well. But yeah,
Speaker 1: because of the whole like a bit of the slut shaming,
Speaker 1: because if you're saying yes, and it's like how many
Speaker 1: other people have you said yes to exactly, It's just something,
Speaker 1: especially when you're younger. I think it's a struggle. And
Speaker 1: I remember because I was raised in a really religious household, um,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times I would like want to
Speaker 1: have sex and that I would get to the moment
Speaker 1: and I couldn't do it because I feel like I
Speaker 1: just feel like the shame all of a sudden. So
Speaker 1: we're not really talking too much about that here, but
Speaker 1: I do think that is another issue aspect of it.
Speaker 1: We don't basically we're not giving women equal say in
Speaker 1: this whole like sex decision, which is real, Like you're
Speaker 1: shamed if you if you have sex, if you want
Speaker 1: to have sex, but if you don't want to have sex,
Speaker 1: you're also shamed. I just can't win, can't win. I
Speaker 1: feel like I say that all the time. And I
Speaker 1: was telling you that I've had a male friend say
Speaker 1: to me before he would never date a woman that
Speaker 1: made the first move because he would think it was
Speaker 1: too aggressive. That's just ridiculous, I know. Like I also
Speaker 1: told you I got called aggressive um the other day
Speaker 1: at a bar because I was explaining um of a
Speaker 1: past relationship to someone and the guy was like, but
Speaker 1: he was also one of those hashtag him too guys.
Speaker 1: So I was like, oh, that makes sense, um. But
Speaker 1: when I was dating men before he was out, I
Speaker 1: was most of the time making the first move. And
Speaker 1: also now that I'm out, what would lesbians do? Is that?
Speaker 1: Like do you have to yeah, just the first person
Speaker 1: you accidentally brush against, Like Okay, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 1: Here we go. Yeah. And it's like, especially like when
Speaker 1: it comes talking about like media and in the no
Speaker 1: means no and consenting everything else, I think it is
Speaker 1: harder sometimes in the queer community because queer people are,
Speaker 1: you know, as women are hyper sexualized, but it's like
Speaker 1: super hyper sexualized as well. Um, there's this quote from
Speaker 1: this article from autos Straddle. Autos Straddle is basically a
Speaker 1: lesbian online publication that I really enjoy and like to
Speaker 1: check out their stuff. But someone was talking about how
Speaker 1: rape shots sound inside queer bodies, and they have this
Speaker 1: quote from the article that says, our heteronormative culture hyper
Speaker 1: sexualized is queer and trans women and gender nonconforming people
Speaker 1: will stripping us of sexual agency and denying the legitimacy
Speaker 1: of our sexuality. This makes sexual violence against us seems
Speaker 1: semantically impossible, even though it's rampant. Yeah, and I feel
Speaker 1: like everything we've talked about that really wraps it up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Or that article that you shared it with me, and
Speaker 1: it was area it was it was a good read.
Speaker 1: Difficult read, but a good read. Yeah, difficult but good. Um.
Speaker 1: And and just as an example of another article from
Speaker 1: that same site talks about Also, y'all should know, I'm
Speaker 1: a huge nerd. I love comics and superheroes, but it
Speaker 1: talks about one episode of our one issue of Catwoman,
Speaker 1: and this was like, so it's been a few years,
Speaker 1: but how Um she was fighting this villain who was
Speaker 1: a female vampire, and the issue the villain rapes um batwoman.
Speaker 1: I think I might have said cat one batwoman. And
Speaker 1: it's an issue because one, it's two men who made
Speaker 1: this comic, but to reinforces that lesbians are woman on
Speaker 1: woman or anything is sexy and it's for the male gaze,
Speaker 1: and so it trivializes legitimacy of any of it, which
Speaker 1: also adds to like, well, if it's not real, then
Speaker 1: how could it be rape? Yeah. Um, there's another something similar. Um.
Speaker 1: I think it was Captain Marvel and she was raped
Speaker 1: and got pregnant, and it was kind of like this
Speaker 1: you know mind thing. You know, comics are weird. But
Speaker 1: she was raped and she got pregnant, and everyone was like, well,
Speaker 1: at least you got a baby out. This is great news,
Speaker 1: like all of the other characters. Yeah, because she got
Speaker 1: pregnant and she was like really sad and depressed and
Speaker 1: crying and they're like, cheer up, you've got a baby
Speaker 1: on the way. Oh my goodness. I don't know how
Speaker 1: old it is, um, but it's um. Yeah, if you've
Speaker 1: ever read that, article. Um, the princess is not in
Speaker 1: your castle. He talks about it in in there, so
Speaker 1: it's very upsetting. Yeah. Yes, on that note, we have
Speaker 1: a little bit more for you, but first we have
Speaker 1: one more quick break for a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1: M hm, and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. One thing
Speaker 1: that we wanted to touch on before we close out
Speaker 1: here is the fact that saying no can be scary.
Speaker 1: And I've spoken a lot about de escalation, socialization and
Speaker 1: how we value women are don't um, how we don't
Speaker 1: respect or listen to women. I have story after story
Speaker 1: of my own, and I know friends of mine who
Speaker 1: have story after story, especially if you work in like
Speaker 1: um service industry. Yeah, oh yeah, then a lot of times,
Speaker 1: you know there is the potential for this to escalate
Speaker 1: very quickly, um, and for violence and anger. So maybe
Speaker 1: you'll kind of jokingly laugh off something that you want
Speaker 1: to say no too, but you know that there's a
Speaker 1: risk that it will get way worse. Yeah, it actually, Uh.
Speaker 1: Margaret Atwood, one of her best best quotes, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: is men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women
Speaker 1: are afraid men will kill them. Yeah. Yes, it's a
Speaker 1: very real thing which can make it hard to say no.
Speaker 1: And if you I mean, that's another thing that I
Speaker 1: think as women, UM, we might just take for granted,
Speaker 1: but you should pause and think about that, that there's
Speaker 1: something in your brain that's trying to protect you from
Speaker 1: being murdered. That's intense. Yeah. Yeah, or the fact that
Speaker 1: it's something that you have to think about though. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like you can't just say no and
Speaker 1: take it at that. You always have to take into
Speaker 1: account though. Okay, what's the situation where I'm at am,
Speaker 1: I talking to A B, C and D. You have
Speaker 1: to go through a whole list of things. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can't just say no, no, even if you want to,
Speaker 1: and if you want to. Um, I think I was
Speaker 1: reading a Harper's Bizarre article. In one of it, she
Speaker 1: starts off the article um with basically some statistics about
Speaker 1: women getting killed by men. But it says one in
Speaker 1: three women are victims of domestic violence, and in cases
Speaker 1: where women are murdered, domestic violence is involved, and nine
Speaker 1: of those cases the perpetrator is their husband or boyfriend
Speaker 1: or an intimate partner. And before someone says, but women
Speaker 1: kill their male partners too, yes, they do two per
Speaker 1: cent of the time, and yeah, so it makes sense
Speaker 1: to you know why it can be hard. And another
Speaker 1: reason is, uh, social status desirability are status is based
Speaker 1: on how much someone wants us. So it's like if
Speaker 1: we say no and someone gets angry and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: well you don't mean anything. Well you're you know, a
Speaker 1: bitch or whatever, and all of a sudden, it's like
Speaker 1: you're you don't have any worth anymore because you said no. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I I for some reason, during like a year period
Speaker 1: of my life, and I would say no. People almost
Speaker 1: always would say to me, but it was bread pitt.
Speaker 1: You'd say yes. It's like interesting, that's not a guarantee
Speaker 1: that it's not And also like, huh that says a
Speaker 1: lot about you. It's like your perst And I'm like, okay, anyway, okay,
Speaker 1: you are a little concerned about them. Yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a shame because I I just expect
Speaker 1: to if I go out that I will at some
Speaker 1: point be harassed and I will at some point be Yeah,
Speaker 1: now it actually happened to me. I go out a
Speaker 1: lot on my own. I'm very independent. And also I
Speaker 1: don't think I need someone to go sit at a
Speaker 1: bar like I like to sit and like just you know,
Speaker 1: do whatever, have a couple of drinks, go home. I
Speaker 1: went to a bar frequent often, and the guy this time,
Speaker 1: he was like he was really drunk. So at first,
Speaker 1: you know, I gave him that benefit of a doubt
Speaker 1: when he tried to talk to me and I was like, no, man,
Speaker 1: just trying to do your my own thing. Leave me alone.
Speaker 1: I was like, hey, man, I really don't want to
Speaker 1: you know, no, wouldn't leave me alone. And it started
Speaker 1: to escalate to the point where like, and I don't
Speaker 1: like saying this, but it was like I am talking
Speaker 1: because he's like, who are you talking to? Because I
Speaker 1: was on my phone. I was like a woman because
Speaker 1: he like, who's that guy are you talking to? He's like,
Speaker 1: are you talking to us? Like I'm talking to a woman.
Speaker 1: It's not really any of his business, but I'm like,
Speaker 1: hopefully this like he'll leave me alone. It actually made
Speaker 1: it worse. He started calling us Starlene from Rosanne as
Speaker 1: an insult um and then and like everyone around me
Speaker 1: could see I was getting visibly upset because at one
Speaker 1: point I turned him. I was like I got just
Speaker 1: laid it down. I was like, dude, I don't want
Speaker 1: to talk to you, leave me alone. And then what
Speaker 1: he proceeded to do is pick up his glass like
Speaker 1: of a shot. He's like, cheers me first, cheers me first,
Speaker 1: like me saying no and asking for my own space,
Speaker 1: like no, it had to be on your terms, not mine.
Speaker 1: And it just was this huge situation that completely escalated.
Speaker 1: You can tell my my body language, like I am
Speaker 1: being very vocal. People behind me, you're paying attention. No
Speaker 1: one's doing anything which they shouldn't have to do. But
Speaker 1: at that point I was like, he's not listening to me.
Speaker 1: So and then he goes outside and then I have
Speaker 1: to like pass him to walk to my car, and
Speaker 1: I was scared. I didn't go back to that bargain
Speaker 1: for a very long time. Yeah. Yeah, And I was like,
Speaker 1: uh no, no means no the first time, right, not
Speaker 1: the hard dog. It shouldn't be. But apparently we have
Speaker 1: a lot of work to do. And again, I think
Speaker 1: sex ed is a great step. We need to have
Speaker 1: these conversations with young people about their their lives and
Speaker 1: sex and what's going on with their lives. And I
Speaker 1: also I again, I we don't teach anything about sex.
Speaker 1: But what we do barely touch on is that you
Speaker 1: can get these diseases. I want people to be comfortable,
Speaker 1: like I want them to know no means no. But
Speaker 1: also if you want to have sex, then you asked
Speaker 1: me to yes, and be comfortable with that. But it
Speaker 1: has to be an informed, educated decision. We're not. We're
Speaker 1: failing the young people in our country. We're failing everybody
Speaker 1: in our country. And because I mean, it's not like
Speaker 1: you've magically learned it all. I could benefit from some
Speaker 1: good sex education. Oh my goodness, no, I agree, and
Speaker 1: also teaching kids, um, you know when they're young boys
Speaker 1: and girls like hey, you know, be responsible for your behavior.
Speaker 1: So yeah, communication in general, I think that's just good advice.
Speaker 1: That's like the baseline. It's just that would be good
Speaker 1: listen to people learn. It's I mean, it can't be
Speaker 1: scary to voice things that you can be and it
Speaker 1: can also be uncomfortable to ask sometimes if you're not
Speaker 1: used to it, you know, so you know, as you're learning,
Speaker 1: But it's good on both ends to ask and also
Speaker 1: to say like if you're asked, or just to tell
Speaker 1: people in general. Yeah, always communication, We're on board. So
Speaker 1: talking about communication. I did a lot, y'all should know this, so, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: lots of stories. But I hooked up with someone recently.
Speaker 1: Um and while we were hooking up, first of all,
Speaker 1: they asked from the beginning, can I kiss you? Yes?
Speaker 1: And then you know, we got into actually having sex,
Speaker 1: and every little bit through it, because this was a
Speaker 1: new partner, every little bit through it, they would say,
Speaker 1: is this okay? Is this okay? First of I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like we're in the middle of doing this, of course
Speaker 1: it's okay. And then I realized they were just checking
Speaker 1: in because it's a new partner, so we don't necessarily
Speaker 1: know all these things that are not okay. And then
Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, this is super consensual sex and
Speaker 1: this is great. I really was like this. I was
Speaker 1: all avounded after, like, once I realized what was happening,
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, my goodness, you're being like really conscious.
Speaker 1: Loved it, y'all. It doesn't take any roommate. Sounds like
Speaker 1: she makes it a lot better. That's fantastic. That's fantastic.
Speaker 1: And finally, yes, the big one total societal shifts easy,
Speaker 1: respecting women, respecting people in general, listening, treating people like people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's we can do it. The bastic human respect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're asking for it. Seems like it would be simple.
Speaker 1: But anyway, thank you so much for joining us today, Miranda. Yes,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Yes, we will be hearing from
Speaker 1: you again. I can't wait to hear your Ariana Grande thoughts,
Speaker 1: have so many thoughts. You do, you do? I'm very excited.
Speaker 1: Where can people find you in the meantime? You can
Speaker 1: find me online on the Monster if you want to
Speaker 1: listen but still, you know, not even a subtle shout out,
Speaker 1: and you can also find me on Twitter at Knox
Speaker 1: can o X, Underscore, Hawkins h w K I ends.
Speaker 1: There you go, And if you would like to write
Speaker 1: into this show you can. Our email is mom Stuff
Speaker 1: at our stuffworks dot com. You can also find us
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast and on Instagram at
Speaker 1: stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as always to our
Speaker 1: producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening.