Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff I've
Speaker 1: never told you. Today we are joined by Jack and
Speaker 1: Miles from the Dailies at podcast. Thanks so much for
Speaker 1: joining us today. I'm so excited to have you. Well,
Speaker 1: thanks for having us. Yeah, we're excited to be on
Speaker 1: the show. I'm really sorry I don't have a fun
Speaker 1: intro song for you. I know that's that's something I
Speaker 1: always enjoy when I listen to your podcast. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's those are all fans submitted, so we don't have
Speaker 1: the the the genius to come up with those ourselves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but we start off our show by inserting our names
Speaker 1: into classic songs as a k s. Because we are narcissists. Well,
Speaker 1: I I enjoy it, and your fans are very impressive
Speaker 1: of and you both have the distinction of being the
Speaker 1: second and third man on the show. I think, I
Speaker 1: think so. Yeah, yeah, it was correct. H fived each
Speaker 1: other in a really manly masculine went let go in
Speaker 1: my hand. Oh perfect, there's no pressure. No pressure here. Um.
Speaker 1: And for the listeners, you might have heard me over
Speaker 1: on their show a couple of months ago, where I
Speaker 1: said one of my most controversial public statements ever so
Speaker 1: go check that out if you haven't heard it, but
Speaker 1: please don't rain down the fire of anger. I already
Speaker 1: went through it. Don't do it again. Um. And interestingly,
Speaker 1: the day I was on your show, the first Avengers
Speaker 1: in game trailer had dropped and we talked about it,
Speaker 1: and today the second one drops. So anytime there's a
Speaker 1: particular trailer that I'm excited about, we have to do
Speaker 1: a podcast together. That's just science. I actually arranged it.
Speaker 1: I had model that just tolign things up. I felt
Speaker 1: like it would give us a good jumping off point
Speaker 1: for this conversation, and look at that. It worked out.
Speaker 1: That's why he kept pushing the date. We're like, just
Speaker 1: get it to land on the four teeth right right,
Speaker 1: that's perfect. I didn't I didn't know you had that. Sway,
Speaker 1: what do you think about the trailer? Um? I I
Speaker 1: really liked it. The last one was kind of very
Speaker 1: sparse on the details, so I watched that one like
Speaker 1: twenty two times. This one I've watched twice, and I
Speaker 1: think it's kind of spoilery. So I'm not going to
Speaker 1: watch it anymore and dissect it. Um. It has given me.
Speaker 1: I don't want any spoilers that I haven't even seen
Speaker 1: the first Avengers movie. That's how I'm afraid of the
Speaker 1: spoilers I am. That's you know, that's that's a really
Speaker 1: interesting approach. Yeah, I hadn't considered that. Um, I do
Speaker 1: like trying to guess ending, So what I think I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do so no one thinks I just like lie
Speaker 1: and say I guessed it. I'm going to write down
Speaker 1: when I think happens, seal it in an envelope, and
Speaker 1: give it to a friend, and then after the movie
Speaker 1: I can see how correct I was and have that
Speaker 1: notarized too. So if SAMs or butts about it, you know,
Speaker 1: you don't want someone to accuse you of having a
Speaker 1: plant to pull this off. So it's just that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, email it to yourself, but I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure you can copy and paste, so yeah, that
Speaker 1: can be tampered them receipts, though I can't take that metadata.
Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. I don't want anyone questioning. I
Speaker 1: want to win fair and square. So the topic that
Speaker 1: you pitched today is likability and the betrayal of women
Speaker 1: in the media and particularly politics. Correct. Yeah, yes, um,
Speaker 1: and is there any particular reason you pitched this topic.
Speaker 1: I mean, I but it kind of was one of
Speaker 1: the more unfair things that we saw in the elections,
Speaker 1: sort of the double standard that the two candidates seemed
Speaker 1: to be held to. Uh, And then we were seeing
Speaker 1: it kind of crop up again as the Democratic field
Speaker 1: started filling out for the election. Um, I think we're
Speaker 1: gonna specifically talk about Elizabeth Warren, but that was a
Speaker 1: thing that I was hearing brought up in the context
Speaker 1: of her candidacy quite a bit. And then just from
Speaker 1: a personal standpoint, I just always noticed a wild double standard.
Speaker 1: I used to I started the website cracked dot com,
Speaker 1: and we used to post videos and articles by women,
Speaker 1: and I just noticed a huge double standard in the
Speaker 1: comments section when it came to, you know, what women
Speaker 1: would say versus what men would say. That that people
Speaker 1: would really get upset about, uh, you know, the personas
Speaker 1: of women and you know, uh impure assume that they
Speaker 1: could read the minds of the women and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: add on all sorts of weird uh context that they
Speaker 1: thought the the person was, you know, just assuming unlikable
Speaker 1: things about the person. And I think also just as
Speaker 1: you know, the Democratic Party begins to be a little
Speaker 1: more representative of what the base looks like or what
Speaker 1: the country looks like. Just seeing how all these new
Speaker 1: batch of women entering Congress are also like the first
Speaker 1: thing they're dealing with is that same double standard, Like
Speaker 1: immediately right, right, because one of the first things that
Speaker 1: Politico ran after Elizabeth warren't announced she was running for
Speaker 1: president was an article about her likability. Right, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, I mean, yeah, she's really smart and
Speaker 1: qualified in everything. Was she likable? Right? Do people like
Speaker 1: her too desperate for people to like her? Yes? Yes,
Speaker 1: there was that question after she did the Instagram video
Speaker 1: of her cooking and she had a beer and immediately afterwards,
Speaker 1: everyone was like, she's so desperate to appear likable. And
Speaker 1: I have always thought that was a weird thing, Like,
Speaker 1: I know any of people who don't drink, but there's
Speaker 1: this whole political I could get a beer with that person,
Speaker 1: get it. But it's strange. Yeah, it's a way to
Speaker 1: communicate where we're all normal people and I drink beer.
Speaker 1: I drink your favorite favorite beverage as well. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really funny. The media, like the mainstream media, when
Speaker 1: it comes to women in politics turn into like high
Speaker 1: school bullies, like they're just like, it's so desperate for
Speaker 1: our approval and just like really like mean girl type stuff. Right,
Speaker 1: Like Elizabeth Warren has a beer and it's like, oh god,
Speaker 1: she's trying to trick us all, like she's not the elitist.
Speaker 1: Brett Kavanaugh was like, I like beer, and people like
Speaker 1: you see he's not a sex predator. Okay, like forty
Speaker 1: times yeah, he's primary quit. It seemed like he thought
Speaker 1: that was his primary qualification, right, being on the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court for emphasis on beer. Really right, I like beer
Speaker 1: just like the every man right right. Also, I mean, look,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren someone I love to have a meal with,
Speaker 1: not just a beer. Yeah, I want to pick her brain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that that is a better approach I me in
Speaker 1: my opinion. Um, she also has a dog now Bailey,
Speaker 1: and everyone loves this dog. They chant his or her name.
Speaker 1: I don't know at rallies. But still people are saying
Speaker 1: she did it as an attempt to be more likable,
Speaker 1: which maybe maybe, but still it's odd that that's the
Speaker 1: first thing, Oh that dog is just to be likable.
Speaker 1: I mean you kind of saw this with Hillary where
Speaker 1: it was it was this unwinnable scenario where you know,
Speaker 1: she was too robotic and too calculating or you know, shrill.
Speaker 1: But then anytime she did something that seemed like in
Speaker 1: response to that observation or criticism than she is like
Speaker 1: you know, the it was, it was an impossible scenario
Speaker 1: to to win. And it seems like they've already set
Speaker 1: up that catch twenty two for Elizabeth Warren. And you know,
Speaker 1: if she does feel the need to respond to these
Speaker 1: incredibly unfair standards that uh, you know, the mainstream media
Speaker 1: holds women too in politics, like that shouldn't be something
Speaker 1: that we uh judge her negatively for. It's the reality
Speaker 1: of the situation and it's terrible. And again, yes she
Speaker 1: gets a dog the shouts of the conspiracy to try
Speaker 1: and come off more billion of people. Yet you know,
Speaker 1: no one cares that Trump is like one of the
Speaker 1: few presidents who's never had a pet, right, yes, and
Speaker 1: like yeah, I mean that's fine, that's fine, you know whatever,
Speaker 1: Like he's being real, he's being authentically a person who
Speaker 1: hates life. Right. He always gets credited for being authentic
Speaker 1: even though he live all the time. And Hillary Clinton
Speaker 1: had the office that where she was inauthentic because I
Speaker 1: think she was trying to walk this line of being
Speaker 1: likable but also tough, like not too feminine, and yeah,
Speaker 1: that that really bothered me during the election. How many
Speaker 1: of my friends would say, I just I just don't
Speaker 1: like her. She's not likable, she's in off pick like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she was probably coached to be that, right, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: That was always the things like there's something about her
Speaker 1: I don't know, and you're like, wait, but hold on,
Speaker 1: this is a binary decision here, like are you still
Speaker 1: going to sit this one out? I mean I knew
Speaker 1: people who actually would vote a third party because of
Speaker 1: that same really vague reason. It's like I don't know
Speaker 1: something about him, Like are you is this because you're
Speaker 1: just conditioned to just be suspicious of a woman trying
Speaker 1: to enter this fear of like male dominated politics, or
Speaker 1: like what do you can you even articulate what this thing?
Speaker 1: You can't put your finger on? Right? Yeah, And we've
Speaker 1: talked a lot on this show about a idea around
Speaker 1: female ambition and female power, and I think a lot
Speaker 1: of that we saw play out in that election, and
Speaker 1: UM will definitely come back to that a little later
Speaker 1: in this episode. I did want to go back to
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren for a second because Democratic analyst Dan Payne
Speaker 1: he had some advice for her when she was running.
Speaker 1: Take it from a man, ye Smith, smile a little
Speaker 1: bit more. Oh my gosh, I get that all the time.
Speaker 1: I hate it. Um. She was running for Senate in
Speaker 1: twelve and he told her to lose the granny glasses,
Speaker 1: soften the hair, and get coaching, to deepen her voice,
Speaker 1: which grates on some, and have a little modesty and
Speaker 1: stop the finger wagging. It adds to her strict schoolmarm
Speaker 1: appearance and bossy manner. Yes, that the other buzzword, Yeah,
Speaker 1: another buzzword dripped from the playground anytime you hear it.
Speaker 1: It's just absolute. Well, that just shows you how early
Speaker 1: on we're conditioned right to look at things like that,
Speaker 1: because bossy is like one of the first things, like
Speaker 1: your first criticisms you learn as a kid for a woman,
Speaker 1: only the right, Yeah, likes a man is like a boss, right, exactly,
Speaker 1: loss the boss, but yeah exactly. But yeah, that whole
Speaker 1: bossy angle is really just I think shows you where
Speaker 1: that's that That's exactly where it's coming from. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: Like bossy or bitchy. Those are immediately to shut you down,
Speaker 1: to take away your credibility, and they're they're used that way.
Speaker 1: They're kind of weaponized to make you basically shut up. Right.
Speaker 1: The voice thing to I mean, that's like Elizabeth Holmes
Speaker 1: from Sarainos, like her game plan is the deepen deepening
Speaker 1: of the voice, which is interesting because we we were
Speaker 1: talking with someone who's like a speech coach and just
Speaker 1: sort of the ways in which you know, women are
Speaker 1: meant to take up less space or condition to take
Speaker 1: up less space even with their voices, and even that
Speaker 1: you know, extends into like, well, then how some people
Speaker 1: are trying to flip that complete and single then let
Speaker 1: me adopt something deeper, more masculine to even be heard.
Speaker 1: Another example of where I've seen this in my day
Speaker 1: to day life is with vocal fry on podcasts. I
Speaker 1: actually think this was there was an episode of This
Speaker 1: American Life where they talked about, uh, you know that
Speaker 1: the top comment that they get from people is criticism
Speaker 1: of women who report for them having vocal fry. But
Speaker 1: then I heard Glass was like, listen to my voice
Speaker 1: and I have vocal fry too. You just don't mind
Speaker 1: when I do it because you know, you're sublimating some
Speaker 1: uh feelings that you have that are tied up in
Speaker 1: sexuality and gender. I could go on and on about
Speaker 1: vocal Fry and the complaints we get about it. There
Speaker 1: is this notorious fan and any quotes fan letter that
Speaker 1: um one of our other podcasts gott and they did
Speaker 1: an episode on vocal Fry, and somebody were it in
Speaker 1: and said, um, women are doing this because they perceive
Speaker 1: it as higher class men perceive it in a different way,
Speaker 1: and we control the world. If they don't care about
Speaker 1: our opinion, they can continue. They want to be hired,
Speaker 1: and they should learn to control this speech impediment And
Speaker 1: was and was his e d cured after he said that,
Speaker 1: If it was, I would love to know about that cure.
Speaker 1: R toxic masculinity to reassert your dominance in really lame way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when we run the world, Oh what a poor poor man.
Speaker 1: Clear as clearly evidenced by the fact that you are
Speaker 1: writing letters to a podcast company exerting your immense power
Speaker 1: over the world. Um. Yeah, And I mean also I
Speaker 1: think that story goes on to her. Another article that
Speaker 1: I read about vocal Fry, I went on to point
Speaker 1: out that women tend to be actually speech innovators. Like
Speaker 1: they talked about up speak or of ending your sentence
Speaker 1: on the up thing. It sounds like less definitive, and
Speaker 1: that started with Valley Girls, but now like that's the
Speaker 1: only way I know how to end with up speak,
Speaker 1: and uh, they're saying vocal fry. The same thing is happening,
Speaker 1: you know, we're it's spreading around the world. So there
Speaker 1: is a lot of these tendencies that people overtly criticized.
Speaker 1: They're probably critical of them because uh, they know how
Speaker 1: they know how powerful women and to be. Yeah, yeah
Speaker 1: it is. That would be a different podcast. But working
Speaker 1: in in this industry and like receiving those those complaints
Speaker 1: and then you get all in your head about well
Speaker 1: how do I speak? Is this terrible? And that the
Speaker 1: curve of learning just don't think about it. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: going back to you, Elizabeth Warren and that that not
Speaker 1: so great advice that that analyst gave her. There has
Speaker 1: been a lot of comparison to the coverage of Bernie Sanders,
Speaker 1: who was sort of given this cool guy pass for
Speaker 1: his shouting and finger wagging and glasses and hair um
Speaker 1: and yeah, the coverage of Warren. It's just pretty stark
Speaker 1: how different it is, even though a lot of the
Speaker 1: qualities are kind of similar. It's almost impossible to imagine
Speaker 1: a woman politician who doesn't comb their hair and whose
Speaker 1: clothes don't fit them, and who like is constantly coming
Speaker 1: in and rumpled outfits that they clearly just took a
Speaker 1: nap in, because that would just never happen, and if
Speaker 1: it did, people would call her presumably a cat lady
Speaker 1: or something like that. You know, it would just be
Speaker 1: it would not be even m botely allowed. But with
Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders, it's just like he's a lovable he's grandpa. Yeah, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: Grandpa exactly. Many ideas an unequality, that's right, And I
Speaker 1: do find it funny, not funny that when Hillary Clinton
Speaker 1: got the twenties sixteen nomination, the press was like, why
Speaker 1: didn't the Democratic Party choose someone more likable like Elizabeth Warren?
Speaker 1: There you go, I don't know, Yeah, you can find
Speaker 1: article when no one will ever he can never win there.
Speaker 1: It really is that impossible game until Oprah runs, And
Speaker 1: even then they're gonna be like, yeah, oh, I mean
Speaker 1: you only like her because she tells you cool stuff
Speaker 1: to buy. She's really more of a consumer advocate. The
Speaker 1: first question Kirsten jill Brand got by the press after
Speaker 1: she had announced she was a presidential candidate, it came
Speaker 1: with the preface, I think a lot of people see
Speaker 1: you as a pretty likable, a nice person. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: So trying to imagine that being something that somebody said
Speaker 1: to a male politician. I think if someone said that,
Speaker 1: it would be like negative, it would be perceived as
Speaker 1: a weakness. Right, yeah, that would be a particularly devastating
Speaker 1: line of questioning for betto right, like, look, you're nice,
Speaker 1: you're a nice guy, You're very like nice enough, but
Speaker 1: it implies a lack of substance, right yeah. Um, in
Speaker 1: the world, no, no no, no worries. Um. In the words
Speaker 1: of Shilpa Podka, the vice president of the Washington think
Speaker 1: tank Center for American Progress, quote, of course voters, sexism
Speaker 1: and outright misogyny still exist. There's a constant focus for
Speaker 1: women on what they're wearing, what they look like. In
Speaker 1: the tone of their voice, it's almost as if they're
Speaker 1: not only running for president but also running for Miss America.
Speaker 1: Uh yes, I think that's a great way of pointing
Speaker 1: out the bind that women politicians are in it. Well,
Speaker 1: it's even the Yeah, the pageantry aspect is even applying,
Speaker 1: Like it's again, it's this fine line. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: what are they wearing whatever? But then Alexandro Kazio Cortez like, oh,
Speaker 1: what she's wearing is two nice too nice? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: thought you were a poor right now, what's this? A
Speaker 1: person of the people? Yet she wears nice clothes and
Speaker 1: then they start listing off the price of all of
Speaker 1: her clothing. The dancing was like, the biggest controversy on
Speaker 1: the right particularly is that she was a person in
Speaker 1: college who danced to music. Because we all foot loose town.
Speaker 1: Apparently that's disqualifying. We all know it. Um. I actually
Speaker 1: read a really long essay about how if you look
Speaker 1: at the I guess this was as an eight um
Speaker 1: and Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin both like Clinton personified
Speaker 1: the Madonna and Palin personified the horror. And you have
Speaker 1: to be there's like a space in between that you
Speaker 1: have to exist where men have to believe they have
Speaker 1: a chance with you, and that's one of the only
Speaker 1: ways you can succeed. Yeah, yeah, Jack, let's just see
Speaker 1: ourselves out. Why are you even talking to it forgot
Speaker 1: past like tone. I would add to you can't be
Speaker 1: too pretty because there is that bimbo trope of um
Speaker 1: people perceiving you as incompetent if you're too beautiful, so right,
Speaker 1: you can't possibly be smart, which is why you see
Speaker 1: Alexandria Occasio Cortez attacked for you know, saying like too
Speaker 1: many times or any time she gets the fact wrong. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: if you look at any member of the house, like
Speaker 1: they are constantly speaking in front of cameras, they get
Speaker 1: details wrong. But she has held up to that because
Speaker 1: you know, it kind of helps people reconcile their feelings
Speaker 1: about yes, wanting to have a chance with her, I think,
Speaker 1: and she's also not, you know, discouraged by the criticis
Speaker 1: she doesn't even respond to it in a way that's normal,
Speaker 1: And I think that's what bothers a lot of the
Speaker 1: trolls out there who wanted to try and shame her,
Speaker 1: because at no point does she really ever you know,
Speaker 1: give her power away to like these outrage mobs on
Speaker 1: the internet or just on like Fox News. She just
Speaker 1: sort of perseveres calls out the sexism, misogyny, hypocrisy of
Speaker 1: whatever the criticisms are of her and then keeps it moving.
Speaker 1: They're like it will find something else. Then, yeah, that's probably.
Speaker 1: I don't know of a better way to to deal
Speaker 1: with criticism than that, um in this public realm. So
Speaker 1: kudos to her. Yeah, And going back to clothing choices,
Speaker 1: I love how oh women cannot win on this one.
Speaker 1: And there's things like sneaker gay and heal gay and
Speaker 1: like pant suit gate, like they turn it, they blow
Speaker 1: it up into this huge thing, and I'm thinking, we can't.
Speaker 1: Can we not just move on from the clothing and
Speaker 1: talk about the issues. I guess not. But the clothing
Speaker 1: indicates how much of a chance I have. Exactly. They
Speaker 1: have to be right exactly, not too threatening and not
Speaker 1: too like pushing any boundaries. They don't want any of that.
Speaker 1: I have to be able to bring you home to
Speaker 1: my mother, but also think about you when I'm not
Speaker 1: when I'm alone. Walk that line. Yeah, easy, easy, and
Speaker 1: kind of like we were talking about earlier. Men are
Speaker 1: rewarded and even considered likable for displaying more masculine I
Speaker 1: would say, unlikable qualities like anger, rudeness, loudness, rashness, and
Speaker 1: women are punished for that behavior to aggressive, to shrill,
Speaker 1: too bossy, too bitchy. But they're also punished for just
Speaker 1: playing traditionally feminine behaviors, and so are men. And and
Speaker 1: this is punished by men and women. To be clear,
Speaker 1: a lot of times it's less about likability and more
Speaker 1: about violating traditional gender norms. Right, It's just that with
Speaker 1: women in powerful positions, both poles are wrong and also
Speaker 1: both like middle grounds are wrong. It's just people, uh,
Speaker 1: find a way to disqualify any woman. Well, yeah, and
Speaker 1: especially the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation was just that whole idea
Speaker 1: of just shown in public so aggressively, where someone who's
Speaker 1: screaming at a senator and being so disrespectful, and again
Speaker 1: it was he was sticking up for himself, was sticking
Speaker 1: to his guns against the bullies. Meanwhile, like and then
Speaker 1: if you just look at how how people viewed Christine
Speaker 1: blasi Ford or even like Serena Williams right in the tournament, right,
Speaker 1: and it's just sort of like, oh my goodness, we
Speaker 1: can't have this now someone someone's sticking up for themselves.
Speaker 1: Only guys can do that, yeah, Serena Williams versus how
Speaker 1: people judged John McEnroe. With John Right, it was like,
Speaker 1: we're going to give him. This is gonna be his thing.
Speaker 1: He's the bad boy. With Serena Williams, everyone was like,
Speaker 1: what is happening? Like, call the doctors, right, something's wrong.
Speaker 1: She's hysterical. She can't play anymore. We can't stand for this.
Speaker 1: In the words of Rock sand gay likability is a
Speaker 1: very elaborate lie, a performance, a code of conduct dictating
Speaker 1: the proper way to be. And I think that that
Speaker 1: is key to a lot of what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: And there was the study that I found when I
Speaker 1: was researching sexism and language, and it was looking into
Speaker 1: people who outright admitted to thinking women were lesser than men,
Speaker 1: and it found yeah, yeah, there are people out there
Speaker 1: that yep, both men and women. And it found that
Speaker 1: male respondents described themselves with these words that are coded
Speaker 1: that were masculine, and they that was they saw that
Speaker 1: as a huge benefit. And the female respondents described themselves
Speaker 1: and words like not tolerable, I'm not tolerable, I'm not empathetic,
Speaker 1: also going out of their way to say, essentially, I
Speaker 1: am not like those other girls, because in our culture,
Speaker 1: masculine is better than feminine m yeah. Um. And the
Speaker 1: argument at the end of of this paper was that
Speaker 1: you can see it in the feminization of the Democratic
Speaker 1: Party as opposed to the masculinization of the Republican Party.
Speaker 1: The Democratic Party needs to be likable, but the Republican
Speaker 1: Party takes pride in not being likable, like being aggressive,
Speaker 1: of being not being politically correct, and yeah, they're kind
Speaker 1: of largely rewarded for it. Yeah. I mean, Republicans like
Speaker 1: to say that Democrats are mom, We're dead, and they
Speaker 1: think that's a positive thing. Right. It's like, oh, if
Speaker 1: you want to go and cry to somebody, the Democrats
Speaker 1: are there, joined the snowflakes over here. We're over here
Speaker 1: getting our hands dirty with the blood of protesters, right like,
Speaker 1: we will, we will take the aggressive military action because
Speaker 1: we're tough. We're not thinkers. We're not at our book
Speaker 1: club trying to solve our problems with nuanced debate. Right
Speaker 1: to send your kids to war? Right? Yeah. It's uh,
Speaker 1: it's really interesting to view along like so many of
Speaker 1: the issues come down to gender roles or like how
Speaker 1: people feel about traditional sexual and gender roles, like so
Speaker 1: many of the left right issues. Really, I'll lot of
Speaker 1: them I find to come down to just you know,
Speaker 1: am I willing to empathize with women? I think in
Speaker 1: a lot of cases, am I willing to admit that
Speaker 1: a woman is also a person like me and has
Speaker 1: an internal life like me? Well? Right? And I think
Speaker 1: that even comes out with that testicular bill of rights
Speaker 1: bill right, or you know, collection of bills that a
Speaker 1: state legislator in Georgia put out to merely putting men
Speaker 1: to give them a second to imagine what would it
Speaker 1: be like if there were restrictive laws against their reproductive health?
Speaker 1: And the thing is just like just received with screams outrage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's one of those I mean, I remember seeing
Speaker 1: signs that said go back to the kitchen Hillary at
Speaker 1: her at her campaign rallies. And it does play such
Speaker 1: a large role these kind of gender norms and gender
Speaker 1: politics in our politics, and it's kind of strange to
Speaker 1: me that it still plays a large role. I don't know, Well,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, I think, like who we vote
Speaker 1: for president is kind of in a weird way, like
Speaker 1: a ten thousand foot view of where how far we've progressed.
Speaker 1: And I think it shows that like racism is less
Speaker 1: ingrained than misogyny and patriarchy, because people were been like,
Speaker 1: all right, a black guy, I can vote for that.
Speaker 1: And then when it got shaken up a little bit,
Speaker 1: there was clearly like just this real, like misplaced sentiment
Speaker 1: against Hillary that I mean, sure there are things that
Speaker 1: people might not have agreed on, but even when it
Speaker 1: came down to you know, xenophobic, homophobic man versus a woman,
Speaker 1: then all then it was I think it was easier
Speaker 1: for people to be like, it's easier for me to
Speaker 1: think this other way than to try and feel like
Speaker 1: I'm I'm like that society was ready to accept this.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it just it was It's sort of
Speaker 1: I saw the elements of that too. It's just sort
Speaker 1: of how I thought, oh, well, we've had a black president,
Speaker 1: so maybe things are moving forward. And then I'm like, ah, okay,
Speaker 1: we still there's still a few more rivers we need
Speaker 1: to cross. Yeah, and any like you were saying, it's
Speaker 1: it comes down to I mean, it's in everything. It's
Speaker 1: in our language, Like everything has some connotation when it
Speaker 1: comes to masculinity or femininity, and so it's it's a
Speaker 1: lot harder to avoid having judgmental thoughts when it comes
Speaker 1: to how you feel about women in power versus you know. Oh,
Speaker 1: and I also just want to clarify I don't mean
Speaker 1: that the election of Barack Obama ment racism was over
Speaker 1: said views were slightly um. So we have some more
Speaker 1: for you listeners, but first we're going to pause for
Speaker 1: a quick break for a word from our sponsor, and
Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you sponsor. I've spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time thinking about and I'm hoping to do an episode
Speaker 1: on it. Women who who voted for Trump and um
Speaker 1: or or didn't vote for Hillary, like, wouldn't vote for
Speaker 1: Hillary whatever was um And I had friends who like,
Speaker 1: to me, I was witnessing internalized misogyny that it was
Speaker 1: kind of like what you were saying. They couldn't put
Speaker 1: their finger on it, but they're like, oh, I just
Speaker 1: don't want to They would rather not vote than I
Speaker 1: voted for her. Yeah. One of the wildest things I
Speaker 1: read in the aftermath of the election was about a
Speaker 1: women for Trump group that arose that was started the
Speaker 1: day after the excess Hollywood tape came out because it
Speaker 1: was I think the response of the media too, you know,
Speaker 1: tell us how we were supposed to feel about him
Speaker 1: saying those things really angered people who have really internalized
Speaker 1: values of how how women should think of their own
Speaker 1: place in uh in society? Was that an AstroTurf group
Speaker 1: though it wasn't. It wasn't like the women for Kavanaugh
Speaker 1: that showed up that was like told like it was
Speaker 1: mostly guys. Yeah. I know this was in the aftermath
Speaker 1: in a small town in Colorado, and then you know
Speaker 1: it kind of spread from there. But this was an
Speaker 1: article that was written in the New York or like
Speaker 1: a month after it was just like, wait, how did
Speaker 1: he when? Wait? Women? Yeah? Very strange. Yeah. I I
Speaker 1: had some friends who were very very intelligent after that
Speaker 1: Access Hollywood video came out kind of be like, well,
Speaker 1: you know they were in the locker room. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no stop. But yeah, that's that keeps me up at
Speaker 1: night sometimes thinking about that. Um, I guess you have
Speaker 1: to like, would you want to live in that locker
Speaker 1: room forever? Right? What if you had to live in
Speaker 1: that locker room? Right? Is that a world you want? Okay?
Speaker 1: Then I think we can't let that rock. There's something
Speaker 1: else I wanted to touch on about the two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight election and this liability problem, that's what the
Speaker 1: press called it, that Hillary Clinton had. Um even Obama said,
Speaker 1: you're likable enough, Hillary. Um. So just just to illustrate
Speaker 1: that this has been going on for so long and
Speaker 1: that I do feel we haven't made that much progress
Speaker 1: on it. In then Democratic candidate for mayor of New York,
Speaker 1: Christine chris Quinn, spoke about this. She said, there was
Speaker 1: a conscious decision I needed to not lean into the
Speaker 1: woman's stuff. I needed to try to be less who
Speaker 1: I was, less aggressive, less loud, less in people's faces.
Speaker 1: People said I was inauthentic. By then I was. I
Speaker 1: was walking around trying to be some different version of
Speaker 1: the actual me. And I remember hearing that with Hillary
Speaker 1: Clinton too, of just making the decision to not lean
Speaker 1: into like women's stuff as an issues, but also just yeah,
Speaker 1: being feminine in any way. Yeah, And there's like just
Speaker 1: such this weird sliding scale of authenticity that I don't
Speaker 1: know how it's actually applied, you know, where you look
Speaker 1: at someone who if being feminine is too authentic, it's
Speaker 1: fine yet if when it's also the authenticity thing is
Speaker 1: used to defend people's like really close minded or ignorant
Speaker 1: viewpoints that are set out loud. It's like that's the
Speaker 1: authenticity defense. But also this I don't know this idea.
Speaker 1: It's it sort of goes back to sort of the
Speaker 1: same thing that people couldn't quite put their finger on
Speaker 1: with Hillary. It's like, I don't know the same thing.
Speaker 1: Or it's like, oh, she's too much of a politician something,
Speaker 1: which is the other thing, And I'm like, what does
Speaker 1: that mean, like, has substantive experience with foreign policy, like
Speaker 1: the politician? Is that not good? But I think it's
Speaker 1: sort of speaking to the like I guess they feel
Speaker 1: like they're not actually reading Hillary as being conditioned to
Speaker 1: try and sort of uh make herself as sort of
Speaker 1: broadly appealing as possible by you know, repressing certain elements
Speaker 1: of her personality. Um yet yeah, I don't know, I'm
Speaker 1: rather than just looking at that or they they see
Speaker 1: that as gamesmanship rather than someone trying to adapt to
Speaker 1: the set of rules that has been drilled into them.
Speaker 1: And then you kind of see the flip side of
Speaker 1: this coin with uh where we're actually recording this the
Speaker 1: day that betto Rourke announced that he was running, and
Speaker 1: he did it in a video where um, he he
Speaker 1: was talking and gesticulating wildly in a way that seemed unnatural,
Speaker 1: but that's okay. But then he had his wife next
Speaker 1: to him, just being silent, And I don't know, like,
Speaker 1: in a in a world that where we're coming of
Speaker 1: the two thousand sixteen election, that seemed like a particularly
Speaker 1: pointed of sort of shot construction. To have a silent
Speaker 1: woman next to him who just kind of smiled and
Speaker 1: nodded who but who never said a word. It just
Speaker 1: seemed somewhat loaded. I don't know if intentionally or not,
Speaker 1: or like it just signals it's like, hey, he's a
Speaker 1: he's a dude with a wife. Yeah, you can trust him,
Speaker 1: right right. But I do wonder, like, we know he
Speaker 1: has a wife, we know a lot of politicians have
Speaker 1: significant others, But having her sit there silently in the shot,
Speaker 1: I wonder if his handlers or the people behind his
Speaker 1: campaign are thinking, Okay, this is us announcing don't worry, guys,
Speaker 1: we got this. It's we're back to just dudes. Okay,
Speaker 1: just some dudes here, and we're going to keep the
Speaker 1: women silent. But I think when I we look at
Speaker 1: most political ads, people aren't even thinking and what that
Speaker 1: deep into it too, and it's just like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: we inadvertently made it kind of awkward. Yeah, I am
Speaker 1: here analyzing a YouTube video like it is. You know,
Speaker 1: was bruder fuzzled over like a shot in a as
Speaker 1: Kubrick movie. But still, yeah, I do that all the time.
Speaker 1: What I do all the time too. Um, I agree,
Speaker 1: there is something weird about that whole thing, especially since
Speaker 1: most of our politicians, particularly most of our politicians that
Speaker 1: do public apologies usually for something sexual nature, and there's
Speaker 1: always they always have their wife in the background, and
Speaker 1: there's that whole song and dance. Feels very strange to me,
Speaker 1: like you're making her come out here and kind of sanction. Yes,
Speaker 1: I know he did this thing, and I'm sticking by him.
Speaker 1: It's just strange. Yeah, it's the top thing of the
Speaker 1: same thing of just like you see if a woman,
Speaker 1: the woman is there, therefore he's okay what he did.
Speaker 1: Just like in what was that the Michael Cohen hearing,
Speaker 1: when I think it was Tom Cotton or somebody brought
Speaker 1: out a black cabinet member or employee of the Trump
Speaker 1: and was just like, and you see this black woman
Speaker 1: shows the president is not racist. You may leave do
Speaker 1: not say anything. Your mere physical presence is an indicator
Speaker 1: of a point I'm trying to make. You have fulfilled
Speaker 1: your purpose as a shield. Yeah, yeah, that was gross.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, it was just cringe e. And I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's when you see that too. It's just sort of
Speaker 1: the well, we've got to have the wife there to
Speaker 1: show like, Okay, so she's if she can, if she
Speaker 1: can forgive, then maybe the country can. Right right now,
Speaker 1: speaking of the country, do you think because America has
Speaker 1: never had a head of state who is a woman,
Speaker 1: but most other countries have, Um, do you think there
Speaker 1: is something specific to America about this insecurity and this
Speaker 1: very specific sort of fear of powerful women? And if so,
Speaker 1: what what is it about the American character that that
Speaker 1: makes us so terrified of powerful women. That's that's a
Speaker 1: very interesting question. And the thing that my mind immediately
Speaker 1: went to you. And this is probably such kind of
Speaker 1: a nerdy stretch. Um, but I once did a paper
Speaker 1: on why is it that people are so afraid of
Speaker 1: socialism in the United States? And one of the reasons
Speaker 1: that I found a lot in my research is that
Speaker 1: the United States has never been invaded on our like home,
Speaker 1: on our continental US has never been invaded, and having
Speaker 1: that that experience brings people together that normally wouldn't come together,
Speaker 1: and it makes them see each other in kind of
Speaker 1: similar circumstances. So like during London and blitzgreed, you could
Speaker 1: average people and poor people all trying to survive in
Speaker 1: in the tunnels. Um. And so this is such a stretch,
Speaker 1: but I think that there's something about in the United
Speaker 1: States we reward aggression and violence. Um. Violence in other
Speaker 1: countries that I've been to is like not as normal
Speaker 1: in their media, Like you're much likelier to see sex
Speaker 1: and drugs, which in the United States is kind of taboo,
Speaker 1: but violence. Um. I saw inglorious bastards in Europe and
Speaker 1: the people I saw it with from Europe were shocked.
Speaker 1: And like, these are generalizations, but I think there is
Speaker 1: something about aggression and rewarding aggression. I'd have to think
Speaker 1: I would have to think more about it, but I
Speaker 1: think just the preference of masculine and traits. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and yeah, and we've also had a we've been pretty
Speaker 1: good at manufacturing what by definition, toxic masculinity, like through
Speaker 1: film and TV and things like that too, where we're
Speaker 1: just kind of like we always thinking the diet we're
Speaker 1: fed here, especially through our own films and stuff. I
Speaker 1: kind of informed that idea too. Yeah, but we you
Speaker 1: know a lot of foreign countries import our culture. Uh,
Speaker 1: they still find find a way to elect heads of
Speaker 1: state who are women. But that that answer of um,
Speaker 1: you know, never having been invaded, never been invaded, the
Speaker 1: sequel to never been kissed, is I think a really
Speaker 1: good I don't know, you're like, I need to think
Speaker 1: about it more. But that's that is a very thoughtful,
Speaker 1: very interesting answer. I like that a lot, thank you.
Speaker 1: But the South, in a way, it has been invaded,
Speaker 1: so south, I just need to let the South lead,
Speaker 1: am I right? Guess there wasn't there? There was a
Speaker 1: list though the Washington Post that said, like, you know
Speaker 1: what the most sexist and like most sexist places are
Speaker 1: in America, It's mostly concentrated south of the Mason Dixon.
Speaker 1: Our theory about the window out the window, definitely, I
Speaker 1: believe media has a I'm always like the media as
Speaker 1: a huge role. I'm sure that because we do are
Speaker 1: we have for a while lad the world in like Hollywood,
Speaker 1: um and exporting our media. I think that that is
Speaker 1: certainly at play. Yeah, yeah, and we were and we
Speaker 1: were built on a Puritan society and so there are
Speaker 1: those values still echoing around. And I think also just
Speaker 1: like you know, manifest destiny is all about domination and dominance,
Speaker 1: and you know, the whole country is built off this
Speaker 1: idea is like we're gonna take what. I'm like, this
Speaker 1: whole country is built on this sort of sentiment of
Speaker 1: like we will take whatever we want to kick whoever
Speaker 1: it is off because we deserve it. And it's just
Speaker 1: that's this. It's like this idea of dominance is just
Speaker 1: constantly so I mean a lot of histories, but especially
Speaker 1: when you think of the displacement of like indigenous people
Speaker 1: and slavery and things like that, dominance is just such
Speaker 1: a huge part of it, right, And it's sort of
Speaker 1: a lie the you know, the people who were here
Speaker 1: died off from a plague and right, But but that
Speaker 1: lie is important to our self identity, like telling ourselves
Speaker 1: that we dominated and that's why we're here, as opposed
Speaker 1: to I think you're right. You know, countries in Europe,
Speaker 1: a lot of them the culture lasts because of things
Speaker 1: like tradition, and so like tradition is valuable to them
Speaker 1: and things they've done for years that their parents did,
Speaker 1: Like that's more important to and then violence, right, And
Speaker 1: if if you think about the time after World War
Speaker 1: Two where this is like American exceptionalism is really in
Speaker 1: full swing and there's all of this disposable income, and
Speaker 1: this is when there's the time of like the stay
Speaker 1: at home housewife and that that's what women did and
Speaker 1: men went out and made money, um, And it was
Speaker 1: this kind of prosperous time. And right now all of
Speaker 1: the nostalgia, the very toxic and my opinion, nostalgia for
Speaker 1: like make America great again. What they're remembering is that.
Speaker 1: But in Europe it was war torn and they were
Speaker 1: rebuilding and depending on the United States for for money.
Speaker 1: I think if we're looking at the generations now that
Speaker 1: we're hearing so loudly um with this vitriol, it's just
Speaker 1: very different. And that's not to say there's not problems
Speaker 1: in Europe at all, but just like trying to think
Speaker 1: of why the United States is behind in this issue,
Speaker 1: I think that that could be part of it as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I guess also to your point of like not
Speaker 1: being invaded, right, that's that's a level of vulnerability that
Speaker 1: as a country we're not experiencing and we don't acknowledge
Speaker 1: because it's allowed us to think we're invulnerable in a way.
Speaker 1: So then to look at you know, just masculine as
Speaker 1: being invulnerable or invincible and these things contributes that because
Speaker 1: I even think, you know, my mom, she's from Japan
Speaker 1: and she was born right after the A bombs went off,
Speaker 1: and everyone from all my family members who grew up there,
Speaker 1: the way they talked about as they were tremendously vulnerable,
Speaker 1: and there was this like idea looking at everyone of
Speaker 1: like we're picking up the pieces in an ash pile
Speaker 1: and trying to create some normalcy again. But there's this
Speaker 1: idea that everyone, you know, like everyone acknowledges. Yes, we
Speaker 1: don't have we don't have the luxury of thinking everything
Speaker 1: is fine or going to be okay because we just
Speaker 1: went through something that shows that we are very much
Speaker 1: vulnerable and have something too, you know, rebuild around. And
Speaker 1: I wonder if that also helps connect people too, because
Speaker 1: there's more of a like we're truly in this together.
Speaker 1: We can see that each others equals because we're all
Speaker 1: kind of starting from the same place. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: I wonder too if it has to do with how
Speaker 1: we elect people versus how other countries elect people, because
Speaker 1: I know a lot of times the way that a
Speaker 1: woman got the like top position in the country is
Speaker 1: her party elected her, like parliament elected her, whatever party
Speaker 1: she's in in parliament, and then if there's a change
Speaker 1: of power, then she gets the top job. So it's
Speaker 1: kind of yeah, so I bet that that also is
Speaker 1: something that's going on. So it's like twenty different things. Yeah, yeah, complex.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm looking for something that will fit on
Speaker 1: one note card, will work on it. It's the one
Speaker 1: bullet point is it's complicated, right. There was a study
Speaker 1: out of the Harvard Kennedy School of Women in Public
Speaker 1: Policy program that found that when participants saw men power seeking,
Speaker 1: they were essentially like good for him, and they attributed
Speaker 1: all these positive traits to him, like confidence, being assertive.
Speaker 1: But when they saw women being assertive, the participants had
Speaker 1: a different reaction. They quote experienced feelings of moral outrage
Speaker 1: like contempt, anger or discussed towards these women and saw
Speaker 1: them as less supportive or caring. Wow, moral outrage, oral
Speaker 1: outrage discussed. Yeah, look at I have absolutely seen that
Speaker 1: though I have seen that in the way people respond
Speaker 1: to Elizabeth Warren and Hillary Clinton just being like yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's disgusting, or even just on Twitter.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, someone who's not even a celebrity. Right, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, just at every right. Yeah, weren't they like
Speaker 1: my mom? Although when I think about my mom, she
Speaker 1: was very aggressive, So I'm like, nope, I enjoy those trains. Yeah,
Speaker 1: come on, yeah, but yeah, the idea the moral outrage
Speaker 1: is like the I don't I can't understand the morality
Speaker 1: of being assertive or honoring your desires and trying to
Speaker 1: go after them. Yeah. I think that what you said
Speaker 1: earlier about the puritanical roots, I think has something to
Speaker 1: do with that. Um. And this isn't to disparage, but
Speaker 1: you know, in the Bible, it's pretty like women you
Speaker 1: do this thing, well, men go do all the other
Speaker 1: important stuff. You stay at home. If yeah, if Eve
Speaker 1: would have just listened you not talked to that freaky snake,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't all be sinners exactly. That is somewhat uh
Speaker 1: particular to the Judeo Christian Bible, and the Koran is
Speaker 1: still has some messed up stuff in there about women.
Speaker 1: But you also noticed that Muslim majority Muslim countries have
Speaker 1: a better record when it comes to women running being
Speaker 1: heads of state, So so something to consider. Another thing,
Speaker 1: yet another thing. Yes, I was looking into this, this
Speaker 1: whole likability factor when it comes to your presidential candidates,
Speaker 1: and a lot of researchers say Ronald Reagan was one
Speaker 1: of the first instances that demonstrated the power of likability
Speaker 1: in our politics because he won by a landslide even
Speaker 1: though he wasn't really qualified in nineteen eighty Right, I
Speaker 1: was a cowboy, Yeah, yeah, very masculine thing to be right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: does John Wayne without just just with a little bit
Speaker 1: less out there racism. And then when George and then
Speaker 1: when Georgia H. W. Bush came along, even though his
Speaker 1: background was c I A you know, uh, probably lots
Speaker 1: of lots of dark things in his history, dark violent actions,
Speaker 1: the media just had it in their head that he
Speaker 1: was a whimp, teasing him, calling him a whimp. And he, uh,
Speaker 1: some would argue, went to various wars and invaded Panama
Speaker 1: because of the media teasing him as for being a whimp,
Speaker 1: because it was being masculine and you're not a cowboy,
Speaker 1: why are you all quiet over their glasses, right exactly.
Speaker 1: Whim whim is such a playground and soul every time
Speaker 1: I heard it kind of cracks me up. Whimp. But
Speaker 1: the question of women in public being likable goes way back.
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait, wait, way back. Um. But first we
Speaker 1: have one more quick break for word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1: We're back, Thank you sponsor. The first woman elected to
Speaker 1: US Congress in nineteen seventeen, Jeanette Rankin, was applauded in
Speaker 1: the press for being gentle and feminine likable. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: likability issues or as old as the suffage movement. That's
Speaker 1: according to Don Teele, who is a political scientist a
Speaker 1: political science professor at the University of Pennsylvania. Um, and
Speaker 1: words like shrill and ugly did start to be used
Speaker 1: more when first wave feminism was rising up. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think shrill is a good one to just kind of
Speaker 1: stow away in your brain, as any time you hear that,
Speaker 1: you can a person has seated their reasonable argument. Right.
Speaker 1: I think likable is another one, But shrill is sort
Speaker 1: of a a should set off alarm bells as Okay,
Speaker 1: this person is talking about something that they don't realize
Speaker 1: they're talking about. But you're talking about their own and
Speaker 1: built of biases on gender and sex. Yeah, when Donald
Speaker 1: Trump used he used shrill and nasty woman, I was
Speaker 1: kind of shocked. It was like so outright that I
Speaker 1: almost couldn't believe it. But that's just his emo. He
Speaker 1: does that with homophobia, he does it with a racism. Ah.
Speaker 1: But yeah, he definitely used those two words that I
Speaker 1: was taken aback. Doesn't he know we're a pro Trump podcast,
Speaker 1: The Daily, So my apologies, my apologies to let people
Speaker 1: think that, um, and I did want to bring up
Speaker 1: you can see this through the lens of race as well,
Speaker 1: like going back to Sir Williams, like the angry black woman,
Speaker 1: the spicy latina, which again these are things that are
Speaker 1: like to shut women down when you say that, and
Speaker 1: the angry black woman, it's like there's just again, we
Speaker 1: don't like people sticking up for yourself. Is angry or spicy? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we prefer mild, right, we prefer smild to spice it.
Speaker 1: We don't want fuego sauce. Um. There's another study I
Speaker 1: found in researching this that I wanted to bring up.
Speaker 1: It was it was from this Glamour article I was
Speaker 1: reading and It had two versions of a negative political ad.
Speaker 1: One was narrated by a male candidate and one by
Speaker 1: a female candidate. Both versions use the same words, are
Speaker 1: at the same decibel volume, and yet listeners were more
Speaker 1: likely to describe the version with a woman's voice as louder,
Speaker 1: more negative, and less likable. Yep, yep. We've done that
Speaker 1: experiment in our office once with two videos, same video,
Speaker 1: one male host, one with a female host. All of
Speaker 1: the comments on the one hosted by the man, we're
Speaker 1: great job, very informative. All the comments on the one, well,
Speaker 1: not all, but most of them were about her appearance.
Speaker 1: They didn't think she was competent, She didn't know what
Speaker 1: she was talking about. Wow, what happened when people realized
Speaker 1: they were part of an experiment? I don't know that
Speaker 1: we ever announced it. I did print out some of
Speaker 1: my favorite mean comments and I made a collage of them,
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping to do like a modern art piece
Speaker 1: with it and invite all those commentators to the view
Speaker 1: of the modern art piece and then beat them up
Speaker 1: one by one. I don't know what it would be
Speaker 1: like though, when people then are confronted with that, Because
Speaker 1: a lot of these people I'm sure they would out
Speaker 1: out like outwardly be like, oh I'm you know, I'm
Speaker 1: an ally r something. Then let these kind of weird
Speaker 1: comments set in, and then you say, oh guess what, friend,
Speaker 1: Uh look at your response to these two things are
Speaker 1: like very different. What then how that would get someone's
Speaker 1: wheels trying to be like, oh, well, you know, I
Speaker 1: that's just I don't know. I just felt more inclined
Speaker 1: to respond to that. I also felt that about the man,
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean, like someone would try
Speaker 1: and backpedal from that. It's interesting because yeah, sometimes when
Speaker 1: you confront somebody about, you know, a mean comment or
Speaker 1: an ignorant comment, they'll just be uh, you know, they'll
Speaker 1: be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I had
Speaker 1: no idea. And other times they'll just double down or
Speaker 1: they're just really angry and they again they want to
Speaker 1: feel like they're in control by goading someone to responding
Speaker 1: and then e D solved. Is this something the both
Speaker 1: of you have some experience with. Yeah, I'm it's I
Speaker 1: you know, I'm always constantly looking for remedies for is
Speaker 1: that what you were? Sorry? I was at the question,
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, then I was then he wasn't talking.
Speaker 1: I'm fine, I'm fine, actually sure, Oh yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: I believe it. No, I mean I think you know,
Speaker 1: they're they're actually our moments. Even on our show, I
Speaker 1: noticed where if women had interesting takes on science that
Speaker 1: were maybe you know, outside of the mainstream. Even you know,
Speaker 1: our show is a comedy show where people might say
Speaker 1: something about something science adjacent, adjacent, people really come out
Speaker 1: in the comments to be like, I really didn't like that,
Speaker 1: that was this this this men and women. Yet when
Speaker 1: a lot of men come on and say just absurd stuff,
Speaker 1: and sometimes there they believe what they say, you know,
Speaker 1: everyone there's a degree of of humor to what everyone's saying.
Speaker 1: But again, we see I've I've definitely noticed that where
Speaker 1: people they definitely have the energy you sort of call,
Speaker 1: uh like a woman's commentary out yep. Yeah. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: we're a show that is, you know, on its face
Speaker 1: not We're we absolutely try and make it a point
Speaker 1: to not dabble in any kind of toxic masculinity and
Speaker 1: be is like even handed with what our takes are.
Speaker 1: But it's still I think there's still just sort of
Speaker 1: that like there's an inbuilt sort of misogyny, internalized misogyny
Speaker 1: that creeps up. Yeah. I think the response sometimes is
Speaker 1: why didn't you stop her? Why didn't get why didn't
Speaker 1: you guys down? And it's like, you know, that's them
Speaker 1: internalizing like how this is supposed to go basically that
Speaker 1: you have to swat it down, right, And I'm like, well, no,
Speaker 1: that's that's what they wanted to say. I didn't. I
Speaker 1: never said I agreed with it, but I'm you know,
Speaker 1: the shows for people to express themselves, not enough interrupting, right,
Speaker 1: you should have told her to smile more. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: can hear that through audio. Um. I do think it's
Speaker 1: a I have personally witnessed the same thing where it's
Speaker 1: it seems to be worse in fields like science. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: which is interesting. But going back to like politics and
Speaker 1: lik ability. According to the Barbara Lee Family Foundation, and
Speaker 1: this is the foundation that studies the representation of women
Speaker 1: in politics, they found in twenty tend, the most significant
Speaker 1: predictor when it came to the possibility for a successful
Speaker 1: candidacy for a woman was likability. And that is a
Speaker 1: big deal because it directly impacts representation and who gets
Speaker 1: a seat at the table and on top of that,
Speaker 1: Other than being quiet and not threatening long accepted social norms,
Speaker 1: what is liability? Some people said it was being honest, um,
Speaker 1: looking the part, which, okay, that's a big can of
Speaker 1: worms problem solver. Like, but I don't just vague terms
Speaker 1: that mean good. I like you mean integrity, nah. Likability Okay,
Speaker 1: you mean someone who is willing to sort of think
Speaker 1: out an issue and to find a solution. Nah, likability,
Speaker 1: problem solver, whatever that is. I feel like looking the
Speaker 1: part would be being a man, right, yeah for real? Yeah.
Speaker 1: Vermont's first female and first Jewish governor, Madeline Cunan wrote
Speaker 1: about this um and she wrote, if you're tough enough
Speaker 1: to be commander in chief, you're not likable. You lose
Speaker 1: some of your femininity. So women have to walk a
Speaker 1: very fine line to be both, and usually they don't
Speaker 1: wear well over time. I would agree that's kind of
Speaker 1: like the cool girl thing where you can do it
Speaker 1: for a little bit but it wears off. Yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: imagine that would be incredibly exhausting to have to be
Speaker 1: responding to criticism from idiots who you know are making
Speaker 1: points that like are are incorrect, and you are having
Speaker 1: to do like that that's the thing with Yeah, like
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren, if she does drink a beer and it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem authentic, maybe it's not authentic because she feels
Speaker 1: a little off kilter because she's having to react to
Speaker 1: your stupid criticism all the time. Um, yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's it. I I think that it must be just
Speaker 1: this can't be very healthy for you know, a person's
Speaker 1: mental health to have to deal with this sort of Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree, And I think it's it's just a lot
Speaker 1: to ask and we're asking it if someone who, in
Speaker 1: theory is going to be like in charge of our
Speaker 1: country and one of the most powerful people in the world,
Speaker 1: and we're basing it on I. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: guess I like her, it doesn't write I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't believe she really liked that beer. Um so I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, wait, she was a Special Forces pilot, okay,
Speaker 1: but she have grandma glasses, right, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: can can't let that stand. Look, the part that's it
Speaker 1: like that you mentioned the cool girl thing. That reminds
Speaker 1: me of the monologue from Gone Girl, which is one
Speaker 1: of my monalogs. Every Where she talks about you know,
Speaker 1: having to pretend to be something you're not, and eventually
Speaker 1: you're going to start murdering people, as that movie taught us. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the eventual outcome. So we should be very concerned
Speaker 1: about this whole thing as it turns out. That's right
Speaker 1: for all of you. Oh I would watch that horror
Speaker 1: movie in a heartbeat. Oh yeah, I would watch that
Speaker 1: if it was an action movie, if it was just
Speaker 1: like Rambo, just her going through and getting her revenge.
Speaker 1: I want to see that now in a mex suit, maybe,
Speaker 1: like just to make it like extra efficient. Yeah, somebody listening,
Speaker 1: please make that. I mean, yeah, who do we know
Speaker 1: who she's represented by? Maybe we can inspect script get
Speaker 1: that to her. I think I would love to see
Speaker 1: her act in it, Yeah, especially cathartic. Yes, it needs
Speaker 1: to be her. Yeah, and I think her acting won't
Speaker 1: be very good, and I'm very excited about that. I
Speaker 1: think it's going to be kind of like still, did
Speaker 1: you know you know what? She won't have to say
Speaker 1: a thing, right, Yeah, she's omnipotent. She doesn't even need
Speaker 1: to use words. She just pulls up vaporizes Trump with
Speaker 1: her like with her blinks. It'll be the first special
Speaker 1: effects like green screen thing where we're actually showing her
Speaker 1: what the audience is seeing, so we can capture her
Speaker 1: performance as she witnesses just Donald Trump blown to pieces.
Speaker 1: This sounds very cathartic for all of us. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: I'm getting way too into this. I'm like, okay, so
Speaker 1: here's how we do it, guys. It's gonna be claymation
Speaker 1: stop motion, okay. Or every time she smiles it unleashes
Speaker 1: this energy burst because like, you should smile more. And
Speaker 1: it's like, no, oh, I think this is an Oscar winner.
Speaker 1: This is something we got an animated We got an
Speaker 1: animated short at the very least anyone is good at
Speaker 1: flash animation. I am so into this, so into this
Speaker 1: called hell hath no fury? Wow, or that would be
Speaker 1: the tagline I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight.
Speaker 1: It would be called He'll hath no fury. Yeah, he's
Speaker 1: not the best in the biz for nothing, folks. This
Speaker 1: is so good. I mean, it's coming up with ideas
Speaker 1: that will never be made. Baby, this whole episode is,
Speaker 1: it's been great. But that alone, Oh, I'm so glad
Speaker 1: we got that out of it. We just cut it
Speaker 1: down to this pitch. I love it, Jack and Miles,
Speaker 1: he'll hath no fury. Well, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: I love it, I love it. Um. I did want
Speaker 1: to add on here that likability politics does exist for
Speaker 1: both men and women. But the Foundation's research, the Foundation
Speaker 1: I was talking about earlier, I found the same thing
Speaker 1: that other studies have found, that female candidates have to
Speaker 1: be viewed as both likable and qualified, but for men,
Speaker 1: you just have to be seen as qualified. Likability is
Speaker 1: a plus, but it's optional, right right, And yeah, one
Speaker 1: thing we um have kind of been. I think it's obvious,
Speaker 1: but politics is not the only arena where this problem exists, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty much everywhere. We see it with celebrities. I
Speaker 1: love when a male celebrity says he's a feminist and
Speaker 1: everyone's like, oh, he's the bass, and a female celebrity
Speaker 1: says it and they're like, oh, she's not. Did you
Speaker 1: see those outfits she was wearing? Yeah? Right, Oh, feminists
Speaker 1: can't dress how they want to know. No, No, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: That's my favorite argument I am argumenting. Oh, well, I
Speaker 1: don't know if feminist dressed like that. I'm sorry, what
Speaker 1: is your idea of right exactly, everybody becomes a fashion
Speaker 1: critic all of a sudden, these guys who like shop
Speaker 1: at bass Bro great store by the way, sharing all
Speaker 1: my fashion takes from the guy in the camo under
Speaker 1: our as you should, as you should. The article I
Speaker 1: found that called for employees to submit employee reviews, and
Speaker 1: through analyzing these reviews, the article's author, who's the CEO
Speaker 1: Kieren Schneider, found that of the almost two reviews submitted,
Speaker 1: fifty eight point nine percent of the male employee reviews
Speaker 1: came with critical feedback. For women, that number was eighty
Speaker 1: seven point nine. Two out of the three critical reviews
Speaker 1: for me employees criticized tone, but seventy one of the
Speaker 1: critical reviews for female employees did. That massive number is incredible.
Speaker 1: Zone is code for I don't want to feel emasculated,
Speaker 1: right right, It's just but I don't know, it's again,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a lot of things that like, when
Speaker 1: you actually read statistics, it's so much uh, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it really brings it more to the surface. I mean,
Speaker 1: not that I was like ignorant of these kinds of things,
Speaker 1: but when you actually these examples are give me for
Speaker 1: a ride. I'm just thinking how infuriating that must be
Speaker 1: for I mean, these are people talking about their boss,
Speaker 1: so there's so many like these are the employees just
Speaker 1: being like her tone is kind of like she needs
Speaker 1: to work on her tone. It's just like, what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? My boss is all like, yo, can
Speaker 1: you do this? And I was like, whoa your tone? Right?
Speaker 1: The boss of me? Boss? Who've been so bossy? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm you're so bored in it, but like, come on
Speaker 1: doing some grace. Bossy Pants, by the way, one of
Speaker 1: the great books. That's twenty years of my opinion. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a pro laugh every other sentence, and I
Speaker 1: did I wanna. I don't want to go super dark,
Speaker 1: but I do think that we should say here at
Speaker 1: the darkest inclusion, this pressure for women to be likable
Speaker 1: is dangerous. Maybe you didn't listen to your instincts that
Speaker 1: something is oft in a situation because you didn't want
Speaker 1: to be unlikable. Maybe you don't speak out, or you
Speaker 1: don't leave when you want to because you don't want
Speaker 1: to be unlikable. I can say personally, I have trouble
Speaker 1: physically raising my voice because I've been so conditioned that
Speaker 1: was not something women did, and that is dangerous, like,
Speaker 1: especially combined with the fear of violence resulting from rejection, um,
Speaker 1: de escalation, Women often due to let men down easy. Um.
Speaker 1: So I just want to put that grim kind of
Speaker 1: pin in here. It's not that's a very important and
Speaker 1: good point. Yeah, and again, look, ladies, please just take
Speaker 1: the wheel. Not going well at all. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: born into this, but it please just take the wheel. Uh.
Speaker 1: Do you guys have any like I try to end
Speaker 1: on a positive note. I do think that we're talking
Speaker 1: about it. It is getting better. Um. Is there anything
Speaker 1: positive that that you can think of to to ender
Speaker 1: this on? Well, I think we just fixed it. That's one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: pat ourselves on the back for sure. Uh. You mean
Speaker 1: just good and and sort of what I see in
Speaker 1: the world today, or just something I really like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll take either. No. I mean, the one thing that's
Speaker 1: a little bit just uh that makes me feel somewhat
Speaker 1: optimistic is just like with I mean, it's it's a
Speaker 1: dark thing that has a light side too. Just sort
Speaker 1: of all of the criticism of ilhan omar Uh coming
Speaker 1: out in the wild double standard that's being applied in
Speaker 1: her case, that there at least there is pushback to
Speaker 1: a degree that I've not seen before from other politicians
Speaker 1: and the media, because I feel like years ago stories
Speaker 1: like that would just be like, Yep, that's it. She
Speaker 1: said something anti semitic and that's that. And now they're like,
Speaker 1: at least some they'll there'll be some sort of there.
Speaker 1: There's a little more analysis now around well are we
Speaker 1: are wait? Are we the bad people here that we're
Speaker 1: only analyzing it one way? Uh? And I there there's
Speaker 1: just I don't know, there's some there's a slow, slow march.
Speaker 1: But yeah, but that's one thing that I was like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, Like years ago, I felt like the story
Speaker 1: just would have ended there. Yeah, yeah, I'll take it.
Speaker 1: I'll take it. And then that's like it's still dark.
Speaker 1: Even though it's a huge you know, it's not equal.
Speaker 1: There's still I think more women protagonists and movies today
Speaker 1: than ten years ago, which I guess is moving lightly
Speaker 1: in the right d Captain Marvel had like the biggest,
Speaker 1: one of the biggest Tuesdays ever for a Disney film,
Speaker 1: like a Tuesday. I do think that development. The more
Speaker 1: women get to do things in culture and in power,
Speaker 1: the more it will become it will become undeniable that
Speaker 1: they're just as good or better suited for these positions.
Speaker 1: And I think I think if we were living through
Speaker 1: the Hillary Clinton presidency right now, we'd be talking about
Speaker 1: our pants suit or or we'd be like, wow, why
Speaker 1: did it take us this long to elect a woman president? Probably,
Speaker 1: And also even like with film though too, you look
Speaker 1: at like clearly like we've hit peak ideas with like
Speaker 1: male dominated film industry, and now like with like female
Speaker 1: directors and writers are like making the best stuff now,
Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, right, right, just let's let's let's
Speaker 1: include everyone and we'll actually see some some good things happen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that it's I'm a big believer if
Speaker 1: you if you see it, you can be it. So
Speaker 1: now that we have more female politicians, the number is
Speaker 1: still very small, but we do have more, and they're
Speaker 1: kind of out in the public, and I think I
Speaker 1: hope that younger girls see that and think to themselves,
Speaker 1: I can do that too. Are they see these female
Speaker 1: directors or these female lead action movies or whatever movies
Speaker 1: they might be, and think I can do that too,
Speaker 1: And then the number will just grow. That's my my hope. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think busting up gender norms and getting away
Speaker 1: from women have to be this way and men have
Speaker 1: to be that way super important. Yeah, agreed. Yes, I'll
Speaker 1: just be a little more flexible. Yeah, you know, and
Speaker 1: just I mean, really, the bottom line is how willing
Speaker 1: are we to accept new things? Right? You know? And
Speaker 1: it's it's fairly it's I think it's easy. Nothing's gonna
Speaker 1: harm you. Well, I don't know. I don't know. These
Speaker 1: scary scary women in there there. Yeah, these testicular bill
Speaker 1: of rights come and out. Now, believe that that's that's
Speaker 1: what happened. Permission I have to get permission for a vasectomy.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. I like to see you try that.
Speaker 1: Did you see that thing from Buffalo Wild Wings about
Speaker 1: the vasectomy chair? You know, this is a real tangent,
Speaker 1: but look it up after after this, I just can't
Speaker 1: recommend it enough. I do. Before we like the final note,
Speaker 1: before we close out, I do want to say, there
Speaker 1: is like no excuse for being a jerk. That's not
Speaker 1: necessarily what we're talking about when we say like ability,
Speaker 1: but different things. Right, You're right, and I I want
Speaker 1: to thank you both so much for for coming on
Speaker 1: the show and having this conversation. It's been super fun. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this has been so fun. Yea, anytime, anytime, and I
Speaker 1: will come back on your show anytime, preferably when there's
Speaker 1: a trailer that I want and we all know it'll
Speaker 1: it'll will arrange, it will arrange it. Just say what
Speaker 1: film and we'll make it in l A. And that's
Speaker 1: how we do stuff. I knew. I knew Living in
Speaker 1: l A gave you that power. So I'm glad you
Speaker 1: finally confirmed it for me. It's kind of like how
Speaker 1: people think it is exactly. I can just hold on
Speaker 1: one second. Hello operator Hollywood. Please, Wow, We're hero trailer
Speaker 1: three months from today. Okay, so that's done. Leonardo DiCaprio
Speaker 1: is actually in the booth right now. He's in madineering
Speaker 1: this podcast. He's like ghost podcasting. Yeah, our engineer. I
Speaker 1: should have known. Where can the good listeners find you? Both?
Speaker 1: You can find us every weekday on the podcast The
Speaker 1: Daily Zeitgeist, also through How Stuff Works Slash, the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio podcast network, where we catch you up on
Speaker 1: things that are happening in the news cycle and kind
Speaker 1: of dig deep into America's shared consciousness. You can find
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien. I'm on Twitter
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Miles of Gray g R A Y yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a go. Go check them out, listeners, and thanks
Speaker 1: again to both of you for being on. Oh is
Speaker 1: our pleasure? Oh yeah, so fun? And if you would
Speaker 1: like to find us listeners, you can. Our email is
Speaker 1: mom Stuff at staff works dot com and you can
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and on
Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff I Never told you. Thanks as always
Speaker 1: to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks you for listening