Speaker 1: Hey, this is Andy and welcome to Stuff Mom never
Speaker 1: told you a production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works.
Speaker 1: And today we have another bit, another bit, another bonus
Speaker 1: episode for a bit of a bonus, A bit of
Speaker 1: a bonus. Um and trigger warnings for today right off
Speaker 1: the bat uh sexual assault, abuse and child Malla's station. Um.
Speaker 1: And yeah, this is kind of similar to one we
Speaker 1: had recently with Renee and Rebecca. You know, we discussed
Speaker 1: the importance previously of law enforcement and dismissed cases or
Speaker 1: dismissing cases, but we didn't get into what happens if
Speaker 1: a survivor decided to go to child So we brought
Speaker 1: into people to speak to those things. Yes, we have
Speaker 1: today an episode of two inn used one with Justin,
Speaker 1: an ex detective, and with another Samantha Samantha not who
Speaker 1: worked for three years as a prosecutor in Florida and
Speaker 1: you heard them clips from them in past episodes. As
Speaker 1: we were doing these episodes. To be honest, this Samantha
Speaker 1: and Yes, we both thought, well, with all these downsides,
Speaker 1: why would anyone ever report? And we generally like to
Speaker 1: end on something positive and we were having trouble finding
Speaker 1: that positive thing. But then you. Samantha stumbled on this
Speaker 1: Facebook video from Justin, who specializes in trauma informed training. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was really excited to see law enforcement or a
Speaker 1: person of law enforcement come out and become an advocate
Speaker 1: for trauma inform training because it's so rare that it
Speaker 1: comes out of law enforcement is usually typically out of
Speaker 1: like people in the world of counseling and or um
Speaker 1: that type of level of treatment. So when he when
Speaker 1: I saw this video, I was so excited that he,
Speaker 1: as a strong advocate and strong ally for victims, also
Speaker 1: got in touch with the lawyer so we could go
Speaker 1: into what happens when a survivor actually goes to trial.
Speaker 1: We're going to be hearing from both of them throughout
Speaker 1: this episode, so let's get into these interviews. My name
Speaker 1: is Justin Borkman, and I am a retired police detective
Speaker 1: from the city of West Valley City in Utah, which
Speaker 1: is the active suburb of Salt Lake City. I was
Speaker 1: a police officer for fifteen years. I spent eight years
Speaker 1: in patrol, so responding to um every type of problems
Speaker 1: you can imagine, and in this department we responded a lot.
Speaker 1: We did the most amount of cases per officer for
Speaker 1: a year in the States. We were extremely understaffed. You
Speaker 1: could go from a vehicle burglary to a gang shooting
Speaker 1: in no time flat. Um. And then I went to
Speaker 1: detective where I spent seven years in the Special Victims Unit.
Speaker 1: During that time in the Special Victims JUnit, I was
Speaker 1: a sign just about cases. Um. So if you do
Speaker 1: the math, that's a lot of cases to burn through,
Speaker 1: if you will. So those are adult rapes, mostly child
Speaker 1: sexual assault, uh, child abuse, elder abuse, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: So it's a pretty heavy emotional type of caseload, if
Speaker 1: you will. During this time, I went through a change,
Speaker 1: and that change is starting to happen like across the
Speaker 1: United States actually around the world. Um. And it's very
Speaker 1: exciting time. It's also a very frustrating time for our
Speaker 1: public and a frustrating time for the police as well.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons that we asked you to come on.
Speaker 1: I saw a video on Facebook because I get all
Speaker 1: of these alerts and I love it that talk about
Speaker 1: some good changes that have been happening. UM, And I
Speaker 1: kind of wanted you if you can explain what do
Speaker 1: you do today? So I left police work five years
Speaker 1: before retirement so I gave up all that so that
Speaker 1: I could go out and train and consult on trauma
Speaker 1: informed investigation and procedural justice for our victims of crime
Speaker 1: within the justice system. Can you explain a mouthful? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a lot. I was gonna say. Can you explain
Speaker 1: what trauma informed investigation is? What that actually is? Yes? So,
Speaker 1: in an of itself, the two words trauma informs is confusing.
Speaker 1: As I'll get out, there are numerous amounts of definition
Speaker 1: to what trauma informs means, but I kind of take
Speaker 1: the general version of everything, which means you're informed about
Speaker 1: what trauma is and how it presents itself, and you're
Speaker 1: informed about it. So that's kind of where I go.
Speaker 1: Most of my stuff is changing the places within the
Speaker 1: justice system that can be trauma informs, and when you
Speaker 1: talk to prosecution you'll see some of that a little
Speaker 1: bit more. But our um accused have the right to
Speaker 1: cross examinate the accuser, so that is it's confrontational, that's
Speaker 1: not trump informed. And that's just one little example. But
Speaker 1: wherever we can make the changes to eat too. So
Speaker 1: when I first went into the Special Missile Say here
Speaker 1: was I was actually assigned to the property squad and
Speaker 1: usually that is where guys will cut their teeth, learning
Speaker 1: the system of screening cases and doing things differently than
Speaker 1: what they were out on the troll. And I had
Speaker 1: done that for six year, six your six months, and
Speaker 1: there was an opening in the Special Victims Unit. And
Speaker 1: what happened is I found my life calling. I would
Speaker 1: go home at night and my daughter was eight years
Speaker 1: old and I had just talked to an eight year
Speaker 1: old about horrible things that had happened to her. But
Speaker 1: I was being trained by the older guard of the
Speaker 1: Special Dictrim student. We are cooked as a society, um
Speaker 1: and especially as police officers about what sexual staff looks like.
Speaker 1: What are what's normal, what's not normal? How do people present?
Speaker 1: Most of them are faults, right, that's on our head um.
Speaker 1: And I started the exact same way. And when we
Speaker 1: would approach the case with the survivor, um that there
Speaker 1: were certain ways that we did think that we're not
Speaker 1: trauma forms Number one, number two. They close out the
Speaker 1: cases fast because we had a huge caseload and we
Speaker 1: don't have enough staffing. So I was doing the exact
Speaker 1: same things as everybody else. And when I was investigating
Speaker 1: child Sextus, assault. I was a little bit more focused.
Speaker 1: We had a little bit more training on that. But
Speaker 1: it seems like as soon as somebody would get UM
Speaker 1: upward teens, young adulthood, that's a team they they just
Speaker 1: turned into liar liar pants on fire UM. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't fitting great with me, But there wasn't any way
Speaker 1: around it. We didn't know. I would come in on
Speaker 1: Monday morning, I would look in my box and maybe
Speaker 1: there would be a sexual assault examined board in there, UM,
Speaker 1: and I would look through it. And what we do
Speaker 1: is we would call up our victim and we would say, hey, UM,
Speaker 1: I just read through your board. I'm sorry this happened
Speaker 1: to you. And I see that you don't have You're
Speaker 1: not remembering a lot. There's alcohol involved, which happens a
Speaker 1: lot UM. Actually alcohol is a tool UM that could
Speaker 1: be used, can be use to futilitate sexual assault. And
Speaker 1: I go, you know, there's witnesses here. Could you give
Speaker 1: me the list of all the people that were there.
Speaker 1: The officers didn't do that. I'm there. I'm seeing they
Speaker 1: got one or two, but there was twenty people there.
Speaker 1: I need to talk to UM and can give me
Speaker 1: that information by maybe Thursday. Uh, unless you don't want
Speaker 1: to keep going forward. While I was planting all this
Speaker 1: down in their brains and I didn't know that, and
Speaker 1: I was putting these huge tasks on somebody who has
Speaker 1: just been raised for health. Say so, I tell them,
Speaker 1: you know, if I don't hear from you by this date,
Speaker 1: I'm going to close out your case, but it can
Speaker 1: be reopened don't you feel like you want to come
Speaker 1: forward later. Well, you know, Monday morning would come around.
Speaker 1: The next Monday, I hadn't heard from them, so I
Speaker 1: closed out their case. UM reduced what break case closed
Speaker 1: and that was it. I'd never hear from them again.
Speaker 1: And that first year I was we had detectives of
Speaker 1: about thirty six and like I said, we were very active,
Speaker 1: homicided everything else. And I was awarded Investigator of the
Speaker 1: Year because I was making a lot of arrest with
Speaker 1: the kid cases, but turning through them really fast, getting
Speaker 1: rid of cases. But I was closing out all the
Speaker 1: insults right. UM. A couple of years go by year
Speaker 1: two and I go to a train that was poor
Speaker 1: child sexual assault. But an attorney was there, Tea Chaine
Speaker 1: on the neurobiology of trauma and a breakout session. So
Speaker 1: if you've ever been to big conferences, they had these
Speaker 1: little breakout sessions. Well, I wanted to go to another one,
Speaker 1: but I was a social butterfly. Well, and I was
Speaker 1: talking in the hall too long and the class I
Speaker 1: wanted to was filled. But I knew my sergeant was
Speaker 1: patrolling the hallways, so I quickly, I quickly tucked into
Speaker 1: the neurobiology of trauma and sat in the back, and
Speaker 1: she was actually talking about adult cases, not children cases,
Speaker 1: and was explaining all the things that I was closing
Speaker 1: the cases for was actual evidence, psychological evidence that something
Speaker 1: horrible has happened to this person. So what it did
Speaker 1: was took everything and looked at this on an ear.
Speaker 1: Everything was opposite. So if um, she had gaps in
Speaker 1: her memory, I would go, oh, she is making stuff
Speaker 1: up and she's just hit my highlights. But now that
Speaker 1: was actually something very bad happened to that person, and
Speaker 1: I went, huh interesting, Okay, But I went back to
Speaker 1: my desk and started going through my cases in regular time.
Speaker 1: But I started seeing this stuff that she had mentioned.
Speaker 1: My ah, that's weird. About months later I went and
Speaker 1: saw her again. She was presenting it SA and then
Speaker 1: it it happened. Um, I had my first moment of
Speaker 1: aha and guilt. I started going, well, everything that the
Speaker 1: system is defining these cases of these brave men and
Speaker 1: women that have come forward, is actually evident that something happened.
Speaker 1: Of the rapes that had biological evidence collected, only six
Speaker 1: percent of those were being prosecuted. Um. If you've read
Speaker 1: the book Missoula Bazoola, Montana, John Krakauer's book came in
Speaker 1: at four percent prosecution RAG and the Department of Justice
Speaker 1: came in and started slinging. And so we had a
Speaker 1: six percent. And Violence Against Women International has a served
Speaker 1: as study from two thousands two thousand, Well, it came
Speaker 1: back to nationwide we were at five point six percent
Speaker 1: of the people that reported. We know that people report
Speaker 1: rape les, Yeah, six percent. Can you imagine if you're
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, where you guys are from, at a prosecution
Speaker 1: rate of six percent of popify, what would your public do?
Speaker 1: So we had a six percent prosecution rate. Um, and
Speaker 1: so we installed this protocol. Is some training with the detectives,
Speaker 1: We did all sorts of different things with the full
Speaker 1: board UH Institutional Review Board study from university so in
Speaker 1: a here we went to six percent, which is a
Speaker 1: increase with fall numbers, but honestly, gouts pent. That sucks,
Speaker 1: but we could do better than that. And so that's
Speaker 1: what's been starting to change around the country in law
Speaker 1: enforcement is we're starting to learn about this trauma stuff,
Speaker 1: and this trauma stuff we actually have been taught about
Speaker 1: on and on in the police academy, however in a
Speaker 1: different area. So what that means is when we train,
Speaker 1: we train most of the stuff that's on our bat
Speaker 1: felt for safety, but we do think during um firearms
Speaker 1: training that is to help with trauma. But we haven't
Speaker 1: been giving that to our victim. We haven't recognized it
Speaker 1: and them. So there's a huge disconnecting that can actually
Speaker 1: start changing tomorrow. Um. It's not gonna be an overnight thing,
Speaker 1: but it can start changing tomorrow. Um we just go
Speaker 1: you're extremely hard to change. Um that it needs to
Speaker 1: start now, and there's so much positive things happening. Also,
Speaker 1: part of that study was how did our victim feel
Speaker 1: after the interview, not after the investigation is done, but
Speaker 1: from report to interaction with detective And we had a
Speaker 1: nineties seven percent positive feedback from our victim was a
Speaker 1: trauma informed or right after the trauma forms interview, not
Speaker 1: after the investigation. Was because some of them would not
Speaker 1: uh the prosecutive That could certainly change it, but we
Speaker 1: wanted to know how they felt up to that point,
Speaker 1: if they felt her listen to uh that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: And it was seven per seven positive. So that is
Speaker 1: indications that we're doing something right. Sadly, we're not going
Speaker 1: to prosecute every single case. It doesn't mean that our
Speaker 1: rapists is not guilty of it. Most of them are
Speaker 1: um really false reports tiny tiny bit um two to
Speaker 1: eight percent is what they say out of my twelfth
Speaker 1: under cases I had to that I proved probab will
Speaker 1: cause is a high standard that we have to meet legally.
Speaker 1: UM civil standard is our victim could be and should
Speaker 1: be filing lawsuits against their um they're suspect. What we
Speaker 1: need to figure out, I think, is what justice looks
Speaker 1: like to our victim. It's gonna be different from everybody,
Speaker 1: like a fingerprint, like your trauma. Everybody's aunt um and
Speaker 1: may its procedural justice and counseling. Maybe it's not the
Speaker 1: justice system, maybe it's the civil system. Maybe it is
Speaker 1: the justice system, and we're gonna try our best I
Speaker 1: have one of my survivors who would also be happy
Speaker 1: to talk. Went through the system that did not trauma informed.
Speaker 1: She went through the interview process and stuff that was UM.
Speaker 1: She was it was an alcohol facilitated and sexual assault
Speaker 1: at her home with her husband in another room with
Speaker 1: some other friends and stuff and UM, DNA evidence everything,
Speaker 1: And it went for three years waiting for triumph and
Speaker 1: then at trial, UM, the jury came back not guilty.
Speaker 1: I was devastated. I was actually in another state training.
Speaker 1: It was just was last year. Do you know what?
Speaker 1: I got a text messages checking on me from my victims. Wow,
Speaker 1: that's procedural justice. She was devastated, but she knew she
Speaker 1: was heard of all the way through that and she
Speaker 1: got to say her peace. UM. It's sad our jury
Speaker 1: pools are not the as educated and that's kind of
Speaker 1: what you guys are doing right now for us, beautiful.
Speaker 1: So usually who brings me in our nonprofit victim organization
Speaker 1: UM paid for by Bedroom Bram, so Pedroom Bram don't
Speaker 1: pay him a lot, But it's more about the passion
Speaker 1: and getting out small areas and talking about it for me. UM.
Speaker 1: Sometimes the police department will and they're guarding to do
Speaker 1: that a little bit more now. But police department, sadly enough,
Speaker 1: they spend what little training money that they have towards UM,
Speaker 1: towards things that they get sued for. Our survivors are
Speaker 1: victims of sexual assaults around the country. Their cases have
Speaker 1: been in a way well, I don't know if that
Speaker 1: can even this word this handled. And you know, I
Speaker 1: did some of the same things. I didn't know what
Speaker 1: I didn't know. But sometimes little civil lawsuits like that
Speaker 1: will help change the system. Uh So that's happening in
Speaker 1: bigger scales around the country at this point. There's a
Speaker 1: big class action lawsuits and pot of Texas where I
Speaker 1: think it's a deven or eight Jane does are is
Speaker 1: doing the sheriff's department, the police department, in the District
Speaker 1: Attorney's office, UM sporting finding their cases. When you think
Speaker 1: about this, with the prosecution rate of four percent, five
Speaker 1: point six percent, six percent, even most of the people
Speaker 1: that report sexual assault our female, when you prosecute, only
Speaker 1: a single digit percent of the cases comes out to
Speaker 1: be gender discrimination. So there's a lot of change starting
Speaker 1: to happen. We talked a little bit about where you
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier about the B two movements, which has did
Speaker 1: nothing but good UM for our systems. Of course, people
Speaker 1: are being freaked out, and there's uh men that are
Speaker 1: overreacting to it UM thinking that they can't do this,
Speaker 1: that or the other. Content. It's not it's not hard. However,
Speaker 1: the me too movement has only scratched a tiny tiny
Speaker 1: bit of the surface. If you look at the surveys
Speaker 1: and the studies, he ain't seen nothing yet. The amount
Speaker 1: of false reports of other cases equals doubt to be
Speaker 1: the same as sexual soft um so false burglary cases
Speaker 1: for insurance fraud same percentage both UM, crashes of cars
Speaker 1: for insurance same thing UM. And some of it done criminally,
Speaker 1: some of it is done because of UM mental and
Speaker 1: psychological problem. If it's something that the victim feels like,
Speaker 1: they want to talk out through a mediator and not
Speaker 1: go through the other stuff, at least get to acknowledgement
Speaker 1: or some sort of closure or an agreement UM, whether
Speaker 1: it's monetary or counseling or what have you. That may
Speaker 1: not be a bad thing either. They depends on what
Speaker 1: justice looks like to you. Since you were talking to
Speaker 1: and your listeners are more on the jury pool. The
Speaker 1: way their biology happened, and way it presents two people
Speaker 1: as counterintuitive to what we were raised to think and see.
Speaker 1: And the first person that's somebody to disclose the sexual assaults,
Speaker 1: who is so important to the system and to their
Speaker 1: um healing, the victim's healing. And you know you hear
Speaker 1: the term starting by believing that's good. Um, things like that,
Speaker 1: but really just show some empathy and don't question about
Speaker 1: what happened. Um, are suspects, if you will. Our are
Speaker 1: can be predators, and they worked very hard and they're
Speaker 1: very good at what they do. And people think that
Speaker 1: the victims are lying. They were set up, they were
Speaker 1: groomed for the most part um and rape is not
Speaker 1: something that happened in back alleyways often. UM, it's mostly
Speaker 1: acquaintance rapes. And so give them the love that they
Speaker 1: need and hear them out. That would be the big
Speaker 1: thing we agree to ful partly. And since we are
Speaker 1: talking to the potential jury, let's talk about what a
Speaker 1: trial might look like. We'll get into that after a
Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor, h and
Speaker 1: we're back, Thank you sponsor. So, what happens if after
Speaker 1: filing the police report, a survivor does decide to go
Speaker 1: to court. UM. Yeah, and here's Samantha, who is going
Speaker 1: to speak more on that. I'm Samantha. I was a
Speaker 1: prosecutor for three years down in Florida. UM. I did
Speaker 1: primarily felony prosecutions, UM, which included drug cases and assaults
Speaker 1: and sex crimes and all of that stuff. I would say,
Speaker 1: out of the sex crimes cases that came through our door,
Speaker 1: maybe ten to fifteen percent were the adult cases. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: the majority of X crimes that prosecutors deal with, at
Speaker 1: least in the jurisdictions UM I was in where child
Speaker 1: molestation cases. So typically at the point where a prosecutor's
Speaker 1: office is gonna get the case or be assigned the
Speaker 1: case UM is after the initial report has been submitted
Speaker 1: by the victim. UM, all of those initial steps by
Speaker 1: law enforcement have taken place, the you know, a rape kit,
Speaker 1: potentially interviews, UM investigation. The investigation might still be ongoing
Speaker 1: when it's submitted to the prosecutor's office, but typically there's
Speaker 1: enough to substantiate and arrest UM and charge the person
Speaker 1: UM the perpetrator. So UM at that point, the prosecutor's
Speaker 1: office really takes over and it really becomes a legal
Speaker 1: situation at that point, moving towards trial. UM. In the
Speaker 1: office that I used to work in, and I think
Speaker 1: it's probably true in most offices, there's some sort of
Speaker 1: victim liaison UM. We used to call them a victim
Speaker 1: advocate SIGNED. Typically there are people who have a social
Speaker 1: work background, some sort of experience, and they really coordinate
Speaker 1: between the victim and the prosecutor assigned to that matter
Speaker 1: UM to keep the victim in the loop about the case,
Speaker 1: what's going on, answer any questions that they may have,
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. So from the point of
Speaker 1: the initial charging to a trial UM. Sex prime matters
Speaker 1: tend to be more serious, so they can take UM
Speaker 1: quite quite a bit of time to actually go to
Speaker 1: a trial. I would estimate probably about a year UM,
Speaker 1: give or take. It can depend on a number of factors,
Speaker 1: how busy the courtroom is, that that case is assigned
Speaker 1: to other types of trials that might be in the
Speaker 1: pipeline ahead ahead of it UM, and just availability of witnesses,
Speaker 1: availability of law enforcement to come to stify UM, and
Speaker 1: also sometimes what is best for the victim. Now, in
Speaker 1: most jurisdictions there is the defendant does have a right
Speaker 1: to something called a speedy trial that they can invoke,
Speaker 1: which would speed up the process of the trial UM
Speaker 1: usually six days something of that nature. In reality, though
Speaker 1: very few people UM invoke that right to a speedy
Speaker 1: trial UM's it just generally doesn't benefit a defendant to
Speaker 1: do that. I would have thought the opposite. They usually
Speaker 1: want to conduct try to get as much discovery as possible.
Speaker 1: And what is discovery Just for people to understand, sure,
Speaker 1: that's basically the exchange of information. So the defendant side
Speaker 1: is gonna want to see every all the information that
Speaker 1: the law enforcement has, the prosecutors have that they're going
Speaker 1: to use at the trial UM, and prosecutors are required
Speaker 1: to turn over anything that might exculpaid or UM be
Speaker 1: beneficial to the defendants. UM. Discovery can also include depositions,
Speaker 1: which is when the defense attorney is going to have
Speaker 1: an opportunity to interview UM witnesses on the record, sworn
Speaker 1: under oath, and it'll be transcribed the standard for criminal cases,
Speaker 1: it's the highest standard there is, beyond a reasonable doubt UM.
Speaker 1: We say, the only thing short of that is no
Speaker 1: doubt UM. So the prosecutors are always mindful of their
Speaker 1: standard of evidence that they're going to have to prove
Speaker 1: in order to get a jury to convict, because that's
Speaker 1: ultimately the goal is a jury conviction. UM. So there
Speaker 1: are occasions when the case ends up being dismissed by
Speaker 1: the prosecutor. In my office, that was fairly rare. We
Speaker 1: wanted to really do that work up front to make
Speaker 1: sure we were proceeding with cases that could go to trial,
Speaker 1: and when there were weaknesses in our case, we were
Speaker 1: more apt to try to look at a play or
Speaker 1: something of that nature UM that maybe neither side was
Speaker 1: totally happy with but could live with. UM. So that
Speaker 1: would that would be our first priority before just simply
Speaker 1: dropping a case. So in the courtroom, UM, these trials
Speaker 1: are almost always going to be jury trials. UM. So
Speaker 1: the first step is that the prosecutor is going to
Speaker 1: select the jury, and the victim won't be UM at
Speaker 1: this portion. Frankly, they won't really be in the courtroom
Speaker 1: at all except to UM provide their testimony. Once they
Speaker 1: do testify, they can usually sit in the courtroom for
Speaker 1: the remainder of the trial if they want to UM.
Speaker 1: But before they testify, there's something called a rule of sequestration,
Speaker 1: which means that they don't want witnesses um testimony be
Speaker 1: influenced by each other, So they don't want people who
Speaker 1: haven't testified yet to be sitting in there hearing what
Speaker 1: other people are saying. So until a witness, until a
Speaker 1: victim testifies, they're usually not going to be in the
Speaker 1: courtroom for all of the preliminary issues on the day
Speaker 1: of the victims testimony. Again, our office had that victim
Speaker 1: advocate that would be there with them. UM. They would
Speaker 1: have been prepared by the prosecutor ahead of time, typically
Speaker 1: walked through general questions that the prosecutors plan to ask UM,
Speaker 1: and that really that's kind of a prosecutor by prosecutor thing.
Speaker 1: I personally never liked to give people the specific questions
Speaker 1: I was going to ask them. I wanted them to
Speaker 1: know generally areas I was going to ask, because I
Speaker 1: didn't want people to over prepare and them be thrown
Speaker 1: off if something went astray. UM. But then they would
Speaker 1: come in the courtroom. Usually our victim advocate would sit
Speaker 1: in the courtroom so that they would have somebody UM
Speaker 1: to be to look at, a friendly face to look at.
Speaker 1: And I always encourage them, UM to really talk to
Speaker 1: the jury. UM. Direct their answers to the jury and
Speaker 1: to the judge, because those are the people that are
Speaker 1: really making up the mind. You don't want to be
Speaker 1: sitting there looking at your attacker, looking at the defendant,
Speaker 1: looking at their attorney. Um. Obviously, the thing that we
Speaker 1: try to prepare them for but really can't always be
Speaker 1: prepared for is the cross examination, but um, the defendant's attorney,
Speaker 1: and that can be really difficult for the victims, that part,
Speaker 1: because they are really there to try to discredit their
Speaker 1: testimony as much as possible. Typically, by the time they
Speaker 1: gave their direct testimony of what had happened, it was
Speaker 1: also emotional at that point. Um. And you know, again,
Speaker 1: we tried to prepare them as much as possible for
Speaker 1: that cross examination. UM, but I can't even begin to
Speaker 1: imagine what it is like to be discredited like that
Speaker 1: and um, you know, be made to feel like what
Speaker 1: you're saying is dishonest in some way because it's it's
Speaker 1: so difficult to just come forward from the get go
Speaker 1: and even get to that point where you're sitting in
Speaker 1: a courtroom. UM. And I think everyone is different. I
Speaker 1: have heard from some victims that it's actually quite empowering.
Speaker 1: To sit there and tell their story two people. UM,
Speaker 1: it gives them that sense of self back, um. But
Speaker 1: for other people it is quite a difficult experience to
Speaker 1: go through. How often does it how long does it
Speaker 1: usually take? I know it's probably based on the type
Speaker 1: of case or whatever, But for a victim to come
Speaker 1: and do their portion of questioning and cross examination, it
Speaker 1: really depends on the case and how detailed it is.
Speaker 1: I would estimate a half day to a day of testimony.
Speaker 1: A lot of them do pleay out ahead of time
Speaker 1: and out of the date. The forcible rape. Adult forcible
Speaker 1: rape situations were usually a bit easier to convict. Um.
Speaker 1: The date rape really does come down to a lot
Speaker 1: of times, unfortunately, he said, she said, situation. And one
Speaker 1: of the biggest problems I think in taking cases to
Speaker 1: trial UM has really been the effective shows like C
Speaker 1: S I and things like that, where they're showing all
Speaker 1: of this like voodoo evidence going on, and we don't
Speaker 1: have those things. There's not a computer that you can,
Speaker 1: you know, submit a five or two and it tells
Speaker 1: you that a shirt was purchased in New Hampshire or
Speaker 1: something of that nature, and those things done exists. UM.
Speaker 1: So when you do have the cases where your evidence
Speaker 1: is really testimony. You do have some jurors that I
Speaker 1: don't want to believe that that's really evidence. They want
Speaker 1: that physical evidence UM to point to. So that's really
Speaker 1: the difficulty with the convictions on you know what is
Speaker 1: commonly known as the date rate type scenarios when it
Speaker 1: comes down to a trial for example, though it really
Speaker 1: depends a little bit more on what the jury feels
Speaker 1: consent is and where that that moves on the on
Speaker 1: the line. So literally it's for the prosecution or the
Speaker 1: defense to try to define it for them and what
Speaker 1: they believe consent is. Essentially so the sentencing process. Typically
Speaker 1: sentencing is going to be set for a different day,
Speaker 1: unless there is it's a crime where there's a mandatory
Speaker 1: sentence that needs to be imposed. Sometimes the judge will
Speaker 1: um impose the sentence immediately after the trial, but typically
Speaker 1: it's set for a later date. UM. Victims do have
Speaker 1: the opportunity to talk UM and are encouraged to a
Speaker 1: lot of them find that healing preparis statement UM it's
Speaker 1: called your victim impact statement typically is what it's called
Speaker 1: in most jurisdictions, and it's your opportunity to tell the
Speaker 1: judge how this has impacted your life, how this has
Speaker 1: changed your life in any in all areas. UM. It's
Speaker 1: also your opportunity to, you know, tell that perpetrator know
Speaker 1: how you feel about them. UM. And UM. You know,
Speaker 1: it depends on the jurisdiction and the crime. UM. Some
Speaker 1: of them have mandatory sentences, UM, some very A lot
Speaker 1: of times the prosecutor will talk to the victim about
Speaker 1: what sentence or range of sentence they feel comfortable with,
Speaker 1: but ultimately the sentence comes down to the judge. UM.
Speaker 1: So the prosecutor can make a recommendation, the defense can,
Speaker 1: They can even be in agreement, but the judge ultimately
Speaker 1: can do what they feel as appropriate. Reading cases day
Speaker 1: in and day out, it gives you just a totally
Speaker 1: different perspective on society. UM. It's no longer this thing
Speaker 1: you hear on the news that happens a way over there.
Speaker 1: It's happening right in your community, and you actually know
Speaker 1: all the gory details. UM. And So I found myself
Speaker 1: affected by a lot of different cases, not just the
Speaker 1: sex crimes cases, but was a part of you that
Speaker 1: I think just does kind of shut down a bit
Speaker 1: and change. Um. I think I'm a much harder person
Speaker 1: since being a prosecutor. UM, nothing shocks me. UM. I
Speaker 1: deal with education law now, I deal with a lot
Speaker 1: of schools. UM. And when I'm training administrators, I actually
Speaker 1: have liked to tell them about my background because I
Speaker 1: tell them. When you call me and tell me that
Speaker 1: something horrible happened in your school, don't expect a big
Speaker 1: reaction from me, because I've seen in her way worse
Speaker 1: probably UM, but I mean, yeah, you you you end
Speaker 1: up kind of shutting off a part of yourself and
Speaker 1: losing a part of yourself. And UM, you know, I
Speaker 1: saw a lot of colleagues that UM, you know, would
Speaker 1: drink heavily, UM developed drinking problems. UM. It can take
Speaker 1: a mental toll on somebody doing that kind of profession
Speaker 1: day in and day out. That brings us to the
Speaker 1: end of our interviews, but we still have some more
Speaker 1: for you listeners. After one more quick break for a
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, m HM, and we're back, Thank
Speaker 1: you sponsor. Before we close out, we wanted to let
Speaker 1: Justin tell you where to find them. So if people
Speaker 1: want to talk to me. UM, I do a bunch
Speaker 1: of different things. So UM, I teach multidisiplinary teams. Also
Speaker 1: people who are not in the system, I can help
Speaker 1: explain and bright colors and employ letter words what happened.
Speaker 1: But I played between the two. And if you want
Speaker 1: to know more about the actual brain science, I have
Speaker 1: people that can do that too. But really for a
Speaker 1: good understanding, I trained that I trained regulation investigations in
Speaker 1: domestic violent investigation UM, and then I consult so a
Speaker 1: lot of the consulting looks like UM going through starting
Speaker 1: a project here soon in Worthington, Minnesota, where they received
Speaker 1: a federal brant to go through their report system, their training,
Speaker 1: and that their police department's gonna and spend a lot
Speaker 1: of time and change out policies and do training. That's
Speaker 1: really cool. UM. So I do that. I review UM
Speaker 1: police reports and investigations. UM. If people need that a
Speaker 1: lot of times I will be able to, depending on
Speaker 1: the information they give me, will review their investigation quickly
Speaker 1: and give them a ten foot what I think. If
Speaker 1: they want a written record or anything else like that
Speaker 1: badly enough, I do need to change charge for some
Speaker 1: of my time. UM. But civil attorneys as well, sometimes
Speaker 1: that they've paid for the report. The other stuff UH
Speaker 1: would come on a side on the other side, Um,
Speaker 1: but I do that. I also ke note I am
Speaker 1: also just about finished with a look of change within
Speaker 1: the Modern U Special Victims Unit. Well, um, certainly my
Speaker 1: email is It's Justin at justin boardman dot com. My um,
Speaker 1: my website is justin boardman dot com. So that's pretty easy. Um,
Speaker 1: you can type in boardman. You can sometimes you can
Speaker 1: search under trauma form investigation that might come up there.
Speaker 1: Uh that's sort of me. That brings us to the
Speaker 1: end of this our bonus episode. We hope that you
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. Yeah. We also want to thank both Justin
Speaker 1: and Samantha for taking time to speak with us and
Speaker 1: being a part of this really important conversation. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and thank you for joining us again, Samantha for letting
Speaker 1: me be here now we're stuck in a loop of
Speaker 1: thank you oh no, and thank you to Andrew Howard,
Speaker 1: our producer. Thank you to the listeners for listening. Thank
Speaker 1: you Stuff. I'm never told you he was a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio is How Stuff Works. For more
Speaker 1: podcast from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.