Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Annie and welcome to Stuff. Mom never told
Speaker 1: you a production of I Heart Radios How stuff works.
Speaker 1: This episode is going to be a little different, listeners
Speaker 1: different to the next two episodes are gonna be very different.
Speaker 1: That is true, Um, and that is because Samantha and
Speaker 1: I um are going to let you sit in on
Speaker 1: our therapy sessions. Yeah, it's a We're going to be
Speaker 1: a lot closer after I told you I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: here to make friends, so you're gonna know all my
Speaker 1: dart apparently, and I'm gonna know all your dart too. True.
Speaker 1: It's true turn around his fair play. We're hoping it
Speaker 1: will help destigmatize therapy a little, maybe make it a
Speaker 1: little us intimidating for people who have thought about doing
Speaker 1: it and for whatever reason, have it because being vulnerable
Speaker 1: is scary, very scary. Yeah. When we were first discussing
Speaker 1: this mini series on trauma, Samantha and I wanted to
Speaker 1: dedicate an entire episode to therapy because it can be
Speaker 1: so helpful in learning ways to cope with trauma. And instead, yes,
Speaker 1: you're getting to one for me, one for Samantha, Yes, UM,
Speaker 1: and mine is not super intense. I'll say, UM, and
Speaker 1: you'll get some some tools for coping. Uh. Disclaimer right
Speaker 1: at the top. We know that therapy is not accessible
Speaker 1: for everyone unfortunately, and you know I've been there where
Speaker 1: I wasn't wasn't able to do therapy myself. UM. Again,
Speaker 1: you all know I'm a social work or that's been
Speaker 1: kind of like my theme UM and with that, oftentimes
Speaker 1: I could not afford it. But we did discuss with
Speaker 1: I think we end the episode with the Kenyan Michelle
Speaker 1: about the fact that a lot of work places there
Speaker 1: is a program oftentimes that at least introduced you in
Speaker 1: tow therapy, whether it's a few sessions like two or
Speaker 1: three sessions that you can have, and it also counts
Speaker 1: us your work schedule. I know from my job it
Speaker 1: offers that because it is that intense UM and it's
Speaker 1: an employee program. But sometimes, like mine, I remember my
Speaker 1: therapist that I was trying to get to UM ended
Speaker 1: up having full schedule. So things happen. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: understand that it is really sometimes can be difficult. But
Speaker 1: there are a lot of places out there, and I'm
Speaker 1: hoping that we can get some more resources that offer
Speaker 1: sliding scale fees, which is sometimes not even good enough.
Speaker 1: And I actually try to research if there were any
Speaker 1: program so that will actually fund UM therapy, because I
Speaker 1: think that should be a thing, and I couldn't find one.
Speaker 1: So if someone knows about that, please tell me, because
Speaker 1: I would love to see that as a program. Yeah. UM,
Speaker 1: certainly if you UM have a job or in any
Speaker 1: university or in college or something, and maybe there might
Speaker 1: be something available that you just haven't heard about. That
Speaker 1: was the case for me when I was in college.
Speaker 1: And before we get into this trigger warning for this episode,
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, assault, eating disorders, substance abuse, suicidal ideation, and
Speaker 1: mental illness. And if we look at some numbers here
Speaker 1: in the United States, over forty four million adults have
Speaker 1: a mental health condition. Though the number of people seeking
Speaker 1: help and being covered by insurance has been increasing over
Speaker 1: the years, over nine million people still report that their
Speaker 1: needs go unmet, and there's a shortage of mental health
Speaker 1: workers to meet that demand in some areas for patients
Speaker 1: to one mental health worker. In the UK, in seventeen,
Speaker 1: over one point four million people were referred to mental
Speaker 1: health therapy and UM. There has been some interesting recent
Speaker 1: research and conversation around the intersection of men masculinity and
Speaker 1: mental health with negative outcomes like mass shootings and sexual
Speaker 1: assaults and violence. The American Psychological Association are the a
Speaker 1: p A has specific guidelines for treating women and girls,
Speaker 1: gender nonconforming and l g B, t q I A
Speaker 1: plus ethnic groups older folks, but not men and boys.
Speaker 1: And this is concerning also in terms of the rate
Speaker 1: of male suicide, which is three times that of the
Speaker 1: rate of women. From the National Institute of Mental Health.
Speaker 1: Men are more likely than women to use almost all
Speaker 1: types of illicit drugs, and illicit drug use is more
Speaker 1: likely to result in emergency department visits or overdose deaths
Speaker 1: for men than women. There's more stigma, I would say,
Speaker 1: around men seeking treatment for mental health um and therefore
Speaker 1: they seek help less frequently. It's kind of like the
Speaker 1: whole men up idea. If you're a true man, you
Speaker 1: can handle this, you can internalize this, just deal with it. Yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we just we just did an example of the exacting.
Speaker 1: So that's manliness, right, Yeah, that's all it is. There's
Speaker 1: even a term for guys having difficulty expressing their emotion
Speaker 1: sens normative male alexithymia. That's a big word. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and yeah, that is the stereotype that don't and in
Speaker 1: the stereotype of therapy is you're sitting on a couch
Speaker 1: and you're crying, and so that is a direct way
Speaker 1: crying is not bad. And as you will hear in
Speaker 1: my session, yes, no, it happens. It does happen, and
Speaker 1: sometimes it happens when you least expected. I've got to say, um, recently,
Speaker 1: I was at lunch with some mostly male friends and
Speaker 1: I mentioned that I was doing therapy, and everyone either
Speaker 1: expressed interest in finding a therapist or they were already
Speaker 1: in therapy as well. So which is right? Because I
Speaker 1: think the more we talk about it and more we
Speaker 1: dey stigmatize and make it an um common thing, the
Speaker 1: better it is for us as individuals who can actually
Speaker 1: get help and then able to help others. It's fantastic.
Speaker 1: I love it. Keep going and there are a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot, a lot of different types of therapy, group therapy,
Speaker 1: family therapy, marriage counseling. Evidence backs up the effectiveness of
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT, along with dialectical behavior therapy
Speaker 1: and family based treatment, but despite that those are not
Speaker 1: frequently used. One survey found only six of therapist used
Speaker 1: CBT only part of the time or in combination with
Speaker 1: something else to treat things like depression and anxiety and
Speaker 1: just a personal experience. Many of the UH different programs
Speaker 1: that I use to help our children will use CBT UM,
Speaker 1: but oftentimes cannot use CBT on people who are lower
Speaker 1: i Q and or like autism because obviously CBT is
Speaker 1: very much thinking and processing and UM understanding your individual needs,
Speaker 1: so oftentimes makes feel that this is not as effective
Speaker 1: for those types of UM patients or individuals. Just to
Speaker 1: put that out there, and despite being a huge proponent
Speaker 1: of therapy UM and seeking help when you need it,
Speaker 1: this is my first serious attempt at therapy. UH. Samantha
Speaker 1: pushed me very strong to do it. I would say,
Speaker 1: we just talked about all the things that we want
Speaker 1: to talk about. You became a mom with me, and
Speaker 1: I was like, yes, we're gonna do therapy together. Yes,
Speaker 1: but we're not doing it together in sessions. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, oh man, that would be interesting, would
Speaker 1: be super It could be like a couple of stay yeah,
Speaker 1: except we're not like fighting with each other. We're just
Speaker 1: like the man we're fighting the Man's were together, right, UM,
Speaker 1: I have gone to therapy before. I got turned in
Speaker 1: twice when I was in college for depressive or worrying behavior,
Speaker 1: which entailed going to a therapist both times, and the
Speaker 1: first time, the dude essentially told me like, this is
Speaker 1: just gonna stress you out more. I don't think you
Speaker 1: should go. And I was like cool. And the second time, UM,
Speaker 1: she the therapist was like, I am not qualified to
Speaker 1: help you. You should see somebody else. And the third
Speaker 1: time I went to my own accord at my mom's
Speaker 1: very strong request, but of my own record, and I
Speaker 1: was trying to explain some of my trauma to her
Speaker 1: and I flipped out, flipped out, screaming and crying, and
Speaker 1: it scared me and I never went back. Um, but
Speaker 1: I knew that I could really benefit from therapy. And UM,
Speaker 1: that brings me to one of the things I think
Speaker 1: that scares people away from therapy apart from stigma, and
Speaker 1: that's finding the right therapist. And that is so important.
Speaker 1: And UM, just to throw that out there, you and
Speaker 1: I when we were discussing the two types of therapists
Speaker 1: for us, when I was looking, I was making sure
Speaker 1: a that it was a trauma focused therapist who knew PTSD, UM,
Speaker 1: who understood triggering, who understood sexual trauma, who understood abuse trauma,
Speaker 1: because I think it's very very important. I did look
Speaker 1: at their education level. I did look at the level
Speaker 1: of years that they practiced. And for me, actually I
Speaker 1: wanted a person who was a person of color because
Speaker 1: I feel like, and the old hear a little bit
Speaker 1: on my end, it's like, I need someone that identifies
Speaker 1: UM with what I've experienced, because I don't. I'm struggling
Speaker 1: with my own identity as a person of color. So
Speaker 1: it just happened that this woman Dr Coleman, who you
Speaker 1: I'm not your to talk about. I met all of
Speaker 1: those and it was been for me. I don't know
Speaker 1: about you, it's been fantastic, UM. But yeah, it's very
Speaker 1: very important that you understand when you're seeking a therapist,
Speaker 1: you have the lead, you know what you need or
Speaker 1: you know what you think you need. You need to
Speaker 1: make sure you have someone who can meet those needs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there are bad ones out there. There are ones
Speaker 1: that aren't for you. There are ones that aren't trained
Speaker 1: to handle with what you're dealing with. UM. Some areas,
Speaker 1: UH don't have any options. I'm from a small town.
Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with that. Um. And one thing for me,
Speaker 1: on top of all the stuff that you just said, Samantha,
Speaker 1: I if it involves travel, I'm very unlikely to stick
Speaker 1: with it. So UM, Dr Coleman, here's the therapist that
Speaker 1: we found. She does it online right, very convenient for me.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say she is licensed in Georgia, which
Speaker 1: that's a reminder. Each state has different qualifications and licensure. Um,
Speaker 1: she's licensed here. Don't think she's licensed in Vermont, Vermont
Speaker 1: also Chicago. I don't know, I think anyway. But UM,
Speaker 1: it's been nice for me to actually because I can
Speaker 1: sit at home and have my dog in my lap
Speaker 1: like and that's one of the most amazing moments. Do
Speaker 1: have a pillow? You haven't seen me in my pillow pet?
Speaker 1: I don't think I have. His name is Rudy or Ruby? Depending?
Speaker 1: Is it just the pillow? Is it in the shape
Speaker 1: of a pet? It's a it's a bee. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1: That's so many things I'm learning about. Yes, yes, please.
Speaker 1: Another thing to consider when you're getting therapy is your goals,
Speaker 1: and it's good to go over those really early with
Speaker 1: your potential therapist. UM, because you don't want to go
Speaker 1: into multiple sessions if you're not going to get what
Speaker 1: you want out of it. UM. Talking things out as great,
Speaker 1: but having stress management and coping tools is I would say,
Speaker 1: the ideal. UM. And in your first session, this is
Speaker 1: what should happen. This is probably what is going to happen.
Speaker 1: It's a conversation around what it is you're dealing with,
Speaker 1: what you hope to accomplish, and whether or not the
Speaker 1: therapist you're speaking with is a good fit for helping
Speaker 1: you reach those goals. And I'm gonna throw that out
Speaker 1: this out there. There is timing as well. As you
Speaker 1: talked about that you and that one time, and it
Speaker 1: did not It was not time. The last time I
Speaker 1: went to therapy was three years ago, and I was
Speaker 1: so caught up in all of the trauma that was
Speaker 1: happening in my work that it was a daily process
Speaker 1: that it was shut me down. UM. And I knew
Speaker 1: after a year and a half. By the way, my
Speaker 1: therapist was awesome, she was great. It just wasn't right
Speaker 1: timing or it wasn't going where I needed to and
Speaker 1: I needed a break. So even though like it's great,
Speaker 1: you should definitely see therapist. Therapists are great. There is
Speaker 1: a thing in your own um body, I think, and
Speaker 1: in your own mental mentalities is this time, am I
Speaker 1: ready to deal with these things? Because the first thing
Speaker 1: they should tell you, the first thing we're gonna tell you,
Speaker 1: is they am hard. Like I'm gonna curse. It's faking
Speaker 1: hard like there's nothing else to say. It's it hurts,
Speaker 1: it's painful, It hurts, it resonates, and you start really
Speaker 1: understanding why you are the way you are. And that
Speaker 1: shock in itself, it can it can feel like it
Speaker 1: shatters you. The good news is you go past it,
Speaker 1: and the good news is someone is there with you,
Speaker 1: which is therapy, which is fantastic. But again you have
Speaker 1: to be not necessarily ready, but aware, yeah, and able
Speaker 1: to take on that extra right. So we just want
Speaker 1: to throw that out there, just because we're talking about
Speaker 1: this and just because we want you to be hear
Speaker 1: it from us. Not necessarily for any but for me.
Speaker 1: This has been years and years and years of therapy.
Speaker 1: This has been years and years and years of being
Speaker 1: in my field. And again, like I said, in the
Speaker 1: next episode, you'll hear more from me, but it's timing.
Speaker 1: There is timing to it too, UM. And one thing
Speaker 1: I found from the New York Times. UH. They they
Speaker 1: had an article about UM finding a good therapist for you,
Speaker 1: and some questions they listed that you should look at
Speaker 1: is what you specialize in, what kind of training did
Speaker 1: you do with whom? And what manuals do you use?
Speaker 1: And there is manuals. There are things out there, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure this is the world of the internet, so
Speaker 1: I'm sure you can look it up too. But there
Speaker 1: are specific methods, specific ideas, and specific books. So oftentimes
Speaker 1: if people can't do therapy, there are some self help
Speaker 1: books and the workbooks that you can use as well.
Speaker 1: And one thing before we we finally get into this
Speaker 1: this session UM with me, UM, Samantha and I signed
Speaker 1: a release saying we agreed to release the confidentiality of
Speaker 1: these sessions. We did all the legal things. We protected
Speaker 1: our confidentiality while recording and editing. We set boundaries and
Speaker 1: discussed what we would and wouldn't talk about, UM that
Speaker 1: would be healthy for us when when you're thinking in
Speaker 1: the context of other people here right, what we wanting
Speaker 1: people to hear exactly, And we sent the file for
Speaker 1: review before we published again. Legal UM to our to
Speaker 1: our therapist, and unless you are a podcast host during
Speaker 1: an episode on therapy, your sessions are completely legally confidential
Speaker 1: unless you wait fair right and the only reason anything
Speaker 1: would ever be reported if you are at risk to
Speaker 1: yourself or someone else or if there's some type of abuse.
Speaker 1: So it is very confidential. Even at the point that
Speaker 1: I think, I'm sure you did too, Dr Coleman, and
Speaker 1: I said, and she was like, are you sure? And
Speaker 1: we talked about it in like three different sessions about
Speaker 1: what this looks like, how do we make sure we
Speaker 1: are protected, You are protected, they and Dr Coleman is
Speaker 1: protected because this is a very serious thing, hippa. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we know it's a big part of law in them
Speaker 1: your um animity and your rights essentially your private rights,
Speaker 1: and it still does exist. So we agree fully and
Speaker 1: we'll say that on there to allow this to happen,
Speaker 1: because we think it's important that you hear what it
Speaker 1: can be and not necessarily what it is for you.
Speaker 1: But it's not as intense sometimes as you think. Yes,
Speaker 1: so just keep that in mind that we didn't do
Speaker 1: this lightly and this is and this is a six
Speaker 1: month long discussion. I'm actually going here and even doing
Speaker 1: it before, we were still like, oh my god, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is happening. Yeah, and we did several sessions like
Speaker 1: before we even got so that I think, Um, and
Speaker 1: you're not talking about this. I thought is very important
Speaker 1: that we set up the beginning because it takes a
Speaker 1: little while to build trust in relationships with people, and
Speaker 1: your relationship with therapist is important and it is a relationship.
Speaker 1: So all of that aside. We're going to take a
Speaker 1: quick break, but when we get back, we're gonna hop
Speaker 1: right into the session with clinical psychologist Dr Marissa Coleman.
Speaker 1: M HM, Hello, I hey, oh, how are how are
Speaker 1: you feeling? I'm good, I'm good. How about you? I'm
Speaker 1: pretty good. Yeah. I'm aware also of you being in
Speaker 1: a a new space during our time together and how
Speaker 1: it's a space that's associated with work and with other
Speaker 1: topics and things, and curious how that's feeling for you now.
Speaker 1: It is change. I feel I almost feel like I'm
Speaker 1: having an out of body experience. Um. It's it's not
Speaker 1: unlike because the show that that we're doing this for
Speaker 1: I often um combine things that are very personal with work. UM,
Speaker 1: so it's not a feeling that I'm necessarily unused to.
Speaker 1: But it is something that I've experienced before when you're
Speaker 1: like being very personal and very like yourself, but it
Speaker 1: is it is your job. UM. It's an interesting inner section. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I was thinking of, just you know, overlap
Speaker 1: of different parts of yourself but also different worlds. UM.
Speaker 1: And so we'll just keep that in our minds and
Speaker 1: in the space as we meet today per usual, Like
Speaker 1: I usually ask if there's anything that's been on your
Speaker 1: heart or your mind that you want to prioritize in
Speaker 1: our time together, UM, feel free to let me know. UM.
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I one thing I have been
Speaker 1: experiencing and UM, I believe we touched on this a
Speaker 1: little bit. Uh the last time we talked is UM.
Speaker 1: I just feel like now that I've started sharing this
Speaker 1: with you with somebody that sometimes it just like comes
Speaker 1: out like I'll just be talking to someone and I'll
Speaker 1: be sharing something that I'm like, God, why am I
Speaker 1: talking about this? UM? And it's never anything two. It's
Speaker 1: nothing that I feel bad sharing. It's nothing very uncomfortable. UM.
Speaker 1: But it's just bizarre because I catch myself like all
Speaker 1: of a sudden saying something and thinking why in the
Speaker 1: world's gonna need to share that with some UM. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's UM, just because it's that
Speaker 1: I've started talking about it for the first time, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Mm hmm. Yeah, that actually makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense to me, just that your defenses are likely
Speaker 1: slowly becoming deactivated in ways that UM, they had been
Speaker 1: very activated in the past, and so those filters of UM,
Speaker 1: like guardedness of needing to protect certain parts of yourself,
Speaker 1: like they may be more relaxed UM. And just like
Speaker 1: with anything, the more that you do something, the more
Speaker 1: familiar it starts to feel. Mm hmm. I'm areous if
Speaker 1: there's a specific example or a time recently where you
Speaker 1: had that that you could share with me. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: on Sunday, I was hanging out with some friends watching
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones and I was saying, how a really
Speaker 1: bad habit of UM drinking too much on Sundays and
Speaker 1: it's because I always call my mom on Sundays UM,
Speaker 1: and uh. People were like, well, why do you dread that,
Speaker 1: And just without thinking about I was like, well, my
Speaker 1: dad has terminal cancer and my mom is miserable, and
Speaker 1: like that's been going on for years. I've kind of
Speaker 1: accepted it, but I don't really talk about it that much,
Speaker 1: And to just have offered it that information without even
Speaker 1: thinking about it, it really surprised me. Um. And it
Speaker 1: could have been that I had been drinking bline. Um. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I afterwards, I was kind of like, oh, I cannot
Speaker 1: take that back, can I? No, No, you cannot. But
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the person that you shared that information with.
Speaker 1: Are they somebody that's close to you in your life?
Speaker 1: Do you feel, um, do you feel like a specific
Speaker 1: I don't know, closeness or connectedness with that person. I do.
Speaker 1: It's um, he's kind of a newer person in my life.
Speaker 1: And that's another thing that I do love my job
Speaker 1: so much, and I'm fortunate that I work with a
Speaker 1: lot of people who am I like hanging out with
Speaker 1: outside of work, and so it's kind of an odd
Speaker 1: thing where we know each other even though he's he's
Speaker 1: pretty new, just because we have to work together and
Speaker 1: then we hang out outside of work. Um. And he's
Speaker 1: also somebody who's just really like easy going. So he
Speaker 1: didn't react like he wasn't like, oh my god, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry. You're just kind of like, oh, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: very even keel and I think for me personally, it's
Speaker 1: easier to share stuff with people do I think, like,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I know they're what their reaction will be. UM.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we're fairly we're good friends. Sure. M Hm.
Speaker 1: How did you feel after you share that information about
Speaker 1: your dad and your mom? Embarrassed? Mostly um, just because
Speaker 1: I didn't mean to um. It has just kind of
Speaker 1: been slipping out a lot. Um. But he was Yeah,
Speaker 1: he didn't, he did nothing he did made me feel
Speaker 1: embarrassed about it. UM, But I was just kind of
Speaker 1: like I felt like I had lost control of what
Speaker 1: I would like to to share. UM. And we're still
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm hoping that I'm not misinterpreting that we're
Speaker 1: pretty close random you know, like if if we've only known,
Speaker 1: it's been less than a year, so UM. There are
Speaker 1: people I've known years and years I've never told that too.
Speaker 1: M Hm. You just said something that was interesting to me,
Speaker 1: and I feel like connects back to some of the
Speaker 1: themes of what we've been talking about in past sessions
Speaker 1: around the sense of control and the security that comes
Speaker 1: from feeling like you're in control of yourself and therefore
Speaker 1: what you share with others than also keeping your relationship
Speaker 1: and control um with the other person. UM. Maybe we
Speaker 1: should talk a little bit more about other times in
Speaker 1: your life that you have felt out of control. UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's there's a time in my life in particular which
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure why I felt so out of control,
Speaker 1: because looking at it from the outside, I think people
Speaker 1: would have been like, wow, you're really disciplined. Um. But
Speaker 1: there was a time in my life where, um, I
Speaker 1: was just so overly scheduled. I always had something to
Speaker 1: do and um, and then I would get home really late,
Speaker 1: and then I would somehow find something else to do,
Speaker 1: and I would I wouldn't sleep, and it just felt
Speaker 1: like I was trapped in this cycle of um of
Speaker 1: that I had created, like this cage I had created,
Speaker 1: and it was stuff of my own, Like I was
Speaker 1: deciding to do everything, do all of this stuff. But
Speaker 1: at the same time it felt like I almost wasn't
Speaker 1: like it was compulsive almost, or like I just had
Speaker 1: to keep finding something because I didn't want to not
Speaker 1: be busy. UM. And I remember just feeling so all
Speaker 1: the time, like panicked and like I was barely holding
Speaker 1: on to this schedule that I had created for myself.
Speaker 1: What would happen if you are not busy? That's the thing.
Speaker 1: I never let it, never let it happened. I would
Speaker 1: sometimes I would even say, um to myself, you're going
Speaker 1: home after work and you were going to relax and
Speaker 1: take care of yourself whatever it is. And I would
Speaker 1: go home and like ten minutes later, I would find
Speaker 1: something like Nope, I'm going out. Um. And it was
Speaker 1: frustrating because it did feel, even though these are purportedly
Speaker 1: decisions I am making, it did feel like there was
Speaker 1: some snap thing like nope. Making that decision for me
Speaker 1: I was I was saying, you need to go home,
Speaker 1: and then something else was thing, No, you did not
Speaker 1: even do that. Yeah, that is interesting. And I'm also
Speaker 1: wondering if part of what was at play and that
Speaker 1: dynamic within yourself was also not wanting to be alone
Speaker 1: mm hmm, about being with other people, but also having
Speaker 1: control over who you chose who you were with. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think there was a an aspect of distraction
Speaker 1: of if you're with other people and you don't have
Speaker 1: to think about anything else than the conversation you're having
Speaker 1: with those those people. And I think I was just
Speaker 1: really looking for distraction, something to to keep me busy.
Speaker 1: When you were with other people and you were talking
Speaker 1: and hanging out, was the topic and conversation mostly on
Speaker 1: the other person. Yeah, generally, UM, I do I like.
Speaker 1: For a long time, I've I've liked to have been
Speaker 1: known as the person who listens well, which is why
Speaker 1: this has been really interesting for me. It's kind of
Speaker 1: been my thing. I like to be the person who's
Speaker 1: on the listening end. Um. A lot of the people
Speaker 1: I hang out with are good though, and including me
Speaker 1: in conversation, like recognizing that and being like come on,
Speaker 1: kind of drawing you out. Yeah. There. There's there's something
Speaker 1: perhaps about being the listener that allows you to hide
Speaker 1: parts of yourself that you don't want to share. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Does that? I mean you think that that fits with
Speaker 1: your understanding of your of yourself. It feels safer for sure. UM.
Speaker 1: And it also I think it ties back into some
Speaker 1: of the stuff we've talked about about having UM low
Speaker 1: self esteem mhm and feeling like I don't really have
Speaker 1: anything to contribute UM to the conversation, or like the
Speaker 1: other person is way more interesting than I could ever be. UM.
Speaker 1: Things like that, do you still feel that way. I do.
Speaker 1: I do, but it's one of another one of those
Speaker 1: things where I rationally know that that's not true, but
Speaker 1: I still feel that it's true, m Um, because I've
Speaker 1: done some really inesting stuff and I know that I have. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But then then if I talk about that, then I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm bragging or something and I can't win.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, a lot of a lot of self talk
Speaker 1: that is likely reinforced by UM again, staying in control
Speaker 1: and not sharing too much. I'm curious when you said
Speaker 1: that you rationally know that people are interested in what
Speaker 1: you have to say, and you've done some interesting things,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't always feel that way. I'm wondering if,
Speaker 1: like when you talk about that feeling, is there a
Speaker 1: certain place even within your body where you get that feeling.
Speaker 1: I feel that way about so many things. UM. I
Speaker 1: just it's almost like I don't I don't trust myself
Speaker 1: at all. Um. I Actually I've never really thought about
Speaker 1: it this way, but UM. One of the reasons I
Speaker 1: um overschedule everything is because I don't trust that I
Speaker 1: will get things done. If I don't, I just have
Speaker 1: like a really deep seated thought that I'm not going
Speaker 1: to do what I said I'm going to do, or
Speaker 1: I just I don't trust the lack of trusting in
Speaker 1: myself and a lot of people. Um. Yeah, yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of things where I'm like, rationally, I know
Speaker 1: this must be true, but I don't feel that it's true.
Speaker 1: Mm hm ums. As far as you can remember, when
Speaker 1: did that lack of trust in yourself begin? I think,
Speaker 1: I mean going back as far as um the first
Speaker 1: the first instance of abuse that we've talked about, I think, Um,
Speaker 1: I remember after that hearing people say, like I remember
Speaker 1: a particular instance where my grandmother, it's like four or five,
Speaker 1: she told me that like, um, she really thought it
Speaker 1: was so beautiful and she loved my hair, and I
Speaker 1: completely panicked and I um had this like it's all
Speaker 1: that she had made for me. I was holding it
Speaker 1: and I was like twisting it so much all of
Speaker 1: the beings spilled out on the floor. Um. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: just even then, it was like, I don't trust what
Speaker 1: people people are saying, and I didn't trust myself to
Speaker 1: believe it because I know she's my grandmother, like and
Speaker 1: I really we had a good relationship and I loved her. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I didn't I couldn't trust that m hm,
Speaker 1: you couldn't trust that what she was saying was true,
Speaker 1: or you couldn't trust that by her saying that or
Speaker 1: about you being pretty would Um how do I how
Speaker 1: do I phrase this? Because I think they're I want
Speaker 1: to distinguish between two things that I'm hearing. One not
Speaker 1: trusting something that somebody is telling you your grandmother. But
Speaker 1: then also I wonder if there's an element of believing
Speaker 1: that by you being pretty means that something bad will
Speaker 1: happen or that you'll get hurt, like that being pretty
Speaker 1: isn't what keeps you safe. Yeah, I think it's I
Speaker 1: think it's both. I Um. I've said before I definitely
Speaker 1: have like a a knee jerk panic reaction to compliments,
Speaker 1: especially about anything to do with beauty or my body. UM.
Speaker 1: But I do have this. It's like an undercurrent of
Speaker 1: just not trusting that that could be true, Like all right,
Speaker 1: when I look in the mirrors like a horrendous and
Speaker 1: I know that that that can be true, Um, but
Speaker 1: I can't trust that. At the same time, it's confusing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which abuses confusing, right, And a lot of what we're
Speaker 1: talking about, UM is connected to the grooming that you
Speaker 1: experienced at such a young age, and the idea of
Speaker 1: being complimented about your looks as being a part of
Speaker 1: the grooming process. So it makes a lot of sense
Speaker 1: why one that could potentially be well, why it is
Speaker 1: a trigger for you, um, but also why um kind
Speaker 1: of the first seeds of distrust are really interwoven with
Speaker 1: that compliment. Yeah, m hm, you just said something about how, um,
Speaker 1: I know that it's true. Meaning reminds me if I'm
Speaker 1: getting this wrong. Um, but you were you were saying
Speaker 1: something and then you stopped yourself and you said, well,
Speaker 1: I know, I know that that's true, whether you're talking
Speaker 1: about if somebody compliments you or that, oh you were
Speaker 1: saying that you look at in the mirror, you look
Speaker 1: at yourself and you don't always like what you see. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that you recognize like there are like it has
Speaker 1: to be true, like if people compliment you know, And
Speaker 1: I'm curious about what what part of you knows that
Speaker 1: that when people compliment you, there are redeemable and there
Speaker 1: are great and positive things about yourself, Like how do
Speaker 1: you know that? I think there's a part of me
Speaker 1: that has to believe, um that when people that I
Speaker 1: do have been with me for for years and years
Speaker 1: and years, and are there is no ulterior motive of
Speaker 1: honestly sex um are being related to me UM like
Speaker 1: your mother is not gonna, hopefully mid most cases isn't
Speaker 1: going to tell you that you're ugly. But like UM,
Speaker 1: friends and people that I just believe that they wouldn't.
Speaker 1: They might be kind and be nice with their words,
Speaker 1: but I think that I have to believe that since
Speaker 1: really for friends, that they're being truthful. Mhm um. And
Speaker 1: I am because I do this this show, and I've
Speaker 1: done a lot of research around you know, self esteem
Speaker 1: and body image, and I know the facts around it,
Speaker 1: and I'm a very like rational, fact based person, which
Speaker 1: is why I think I have this this cognitive dissonance
Speaker 1: between UM. What I know must be true, but what
Speaker 1: I feel they don't a lot of times they just
Speaker 1: don't match up. Yeah. Yeah, I also want I want
Speaker 1: to point out how that disconnect between mind and body
Speaker 1: is a very common symptom or survivors of abuse and trauma.
Speaker 1: Is this idea of particularly when it's involving um sexual
Speaker 1: body parts, because the feeling itself can be confusing and
Speaker 1: that sometimes it is pleasurable. But then in your mind
Speaker 1: or even in your heart, you're like, but this isn't right,
Speaker 1: and I don't feel good, and this is you know,
Speaker 1: all of the insert whatever adjective you want, you know, um,
Speaker 1: And so that in itself is confusing. Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: it's easy for that too, that h that interaction to
Speaker 1: spill over to other areas of life too. So I
Speaker 1: know for us, one of our tasks is how to
Speaker 1: integrate that more for you, Yeah, so that one you
Speaker 1: can safely rely on your intuition and instincts and gut
Speaker 1: reactions of if somebody does say something that's um disingenuous,
Speaker 1: that you can trust your ability to sense that and
Speaker 1: know that. And then vice versa, when somebody is sincere
Speaker 1: and authentic with you, that you can trust that too.
Speaker 1: M Um. What I heard you saying was that time
Speaker 1: and consistency with people in your life like that helps
Speaker 1: build that sense of trust. M We have a little
Speaker 1: bit more for you listeners, but we're going to pause
Speaker 1: for one more quick break for word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1: M HM. Has there ever been a time when, um,
Speaker 1: when you have gone with a gut instinct, whether it
Speaker 1: was early on in a relationship and it ended up
Speaker 1: being correct, Like you and you are either surprised by
Speaker 1: that or like, do you have any experience of that?
Speaker 1: Um yeah, uh no, not personally, but I can see
Speaker 1: it in other people's relationships, which is the last thing
Speaker 1: anyone wants. But I have a friend in particular where
Speaker 1: several times I've been like, this person is no good
Speaker 1: for you, and I usually don't unless they ask, like
Speaker 1: or I'm very concerned, I'm not going to to voice that.
Speaker 1: Um So, I feel like sometimes I can see in
Speaker 1: other people. I think I've often felt it in my
Speaker 1: own relationships, but I usually convinced myself that I'm being um, yes,
Speaker 1: paranoid or it's It's difficult for me because I've never
Speaker 1: really had a I don't remember to my to a a
Speaker 1: time before I had like traumatic stuff. So I think
Speaker 1: a lot of times I'm thinking, maybe this is normal
Speaker 1: and I'm just being like overly sensitive to it. Um So,
Speaker 1: I'll definitely stay in relationships long past when I think
Speaker 1: this is not going to work, okay. So you start
Speaker 1: to second guess yourself and doubt your ability to discern
Speaker 1: and know what's right for you. And so what is
Speaker 1: it that keeps you there. You had mentioned something about
Speaker 1: how you may like minimize your feelings or brush it off.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I'm just being too sensitive. But are
Speaker 1: there other things that keep you in a situation that
Speaker 1: you don't feel like it's great for you? I don't
Speaker 1: I want to hurt the other person's feelings A lot
Speaker 1: of time, UM, I have. I am very bad about
Speaker 1: um letting people. I don't want to let anybody down.
Speaker 1: I don't want to make anyone unhappy unhappy, and I
Speaker 1: I think there is a sense of like, well, this
Speaker 1: person is well willing to be with you, um and
Speaker 1: they still are. So maybe you should see if you
Speaker 1: can make it work, because who knows if there's another
Speaker 1: person like that out there saying that out loud? How
Speaker 1: does that feel? It's sad? I mean I've never this
Speaker 1: isn't a surprise to me at all. I often think that,
Speaker 1: but yeah I think it out loud? Is that it
Speaker 1: makes me sad? Yeah, because I can I can see
Speaker 1: the emotion when you talk about it. Looks like a
Speaker 1: lot of sadness. Yeah. Is this something that you would
Speaker 1: like to see shift in your life and your own
Speaker 1: self perception? Yeah? I just feel like there's so many
Speaker 1: threads for me to like, so many things I need
Speaker 1: to tackle before I can even like ascertain what I want.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what I want. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: would like to be able to say confidently, I this
Speaker 1: relationship isn't good for me our no relationship is good
Speaker 1: for me or without always wondering is it because I
Speaker 1: went through these traumatic things? M hm hm Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just compelling to me to hear um,
Speaker 1: because it's it's another way that the traumatic experiences you've
Speaker 1: had continue to have a hold on not just you
Speaker 1: and how you view yourself, but also like your life,
Speaker 1: you know, and the and the near future you know essentially. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is why I think it's just so brave of
Speaker 1: you two work on this stuff and to talk about this,
Speaker 1: because for so long it's kind of been this like
Speaker 1: dark passenger for lack of better word, with you, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like, um, something that you carry
Speaker 1: that you don't share, but like that impacts you and
Speaker 1: every aspect of your life. Yeah, and it also keeps
Speaker 1: you from your goal of like authentic connection and to
Speaker 1: be seen and known by another person. Yeah. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: are so many things that I have done for so
Speaker 1: long that I had not realized that I was doing
Speaker 1: just to to cope and to avoid into not have
Speaker 1: to deal with it, right. And we've talked about how
Speaker 1: that's adaptive, right until you're in situations that are safe
Speaker 1: and that don't need um, that hyper vigilance you know,
Speaker 1: to keep you safe, and then it becomes unhelpful and
Speaker 1: it can keep you from your goals for yourself. Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Do you think that you are at that place where, um,
Speaker 1: you you are safe? I think yes, Um. Again, it's
Speaker 1: one of those things where, ah, I think I am safe,
Speaker 1: and I feel pretty safe most of the time, but
Speaker 1: then I have days where I really don't um. And
Speaker 1: I mean the compliment thing is a great example, like
Speaker 1: in any relationship that in theory you're going to like date, uh,
Speaker 1: someone gives you a compliment the amount of like I've
Speaker 1: got to get out of here right now that I feel, um,
Speaker 1: it makes me so uncomfortable. Yeah, uh, and it's it's
Speaker 1: like panic. I remember somebody was like getting ready to
Speaker 1: compliment me and it was like stop stop up ups up. Um.
Speaker 1: So I it's that, yeah, another thing where I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure that I am safe, but I don't always feel safe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: really great distinction because again that gets that like the
Speaker 1: mind and the body and the disconnect, right. I may
Speaker 1: not feel safe in your body because you're being triggered
Speaker 1: mm hmm, but your mind, in the reality of um
Speaker 1: the situation, you may you likely are safe, you know,
Speaker 1: but there's always that that risk, especially when you're in
Speaker 1: a relationship with another person and you're getting to know
Speaker 1: that person. So what if oh h And that's the
Speaker 1: thing about triggers and why they can have a really
Speaker 1: powerful hold on um anyone's way of being and a functioning,
Speaker 1: is that there was a time when you we're safe
Speaker 1: at preschool, and you did feel safe at preschool until
Speaker 1: the first abuse instance, and then you were no longer
Speaker 1: say you know what I mean, or the grooming started
Speaker 1: and you started to get that kind of prickly feeling
Speaker 1: or the hair in your arms or like that ikey
Speaker 1: feeling and your tell me of like why is he
Speaker 1: sitting so close to me? Yeah? Um? And so when
Speaker 1: you're triggered by a compliment, it likely brings you back
Speaker 1: to those feelings when you were a little girl. M hmm.
Speaker 1: Have we done a writing exercise yet together? If I
Speaker 1: asked you to do it. UM. I don't think I have,
Speaker 1: but I'm thinking it may be helpful. UM, if you're
Speaker 1: for it and interested, I feel free to say no. UM.
Speaker 1: But writing a letter to little Annie, to you as
Speaker 1: a little girl, UM, during that first instance of abuse,
Speaker 1: H and what you would like to say to her,
Speaker 1: are even thinking about what what you what she needs
Speaker 1: or what you would have wanted. I think that could
Speaker 1: be a powerful exercise to kind of get in tune
Speaker 1: with like one year, not that little girl anymore, UM,
Speaker 1: but also still you're still so closely connected. Yeah. UM,
Speaker 1: that's it's really interesting to me that that's UM, that
Speaker 1: that suggestion, I do you think would be really powerful
Speaker 1: because I I've told you before, I have this UM
Speaker 1: character that I wrote that I later realized she was
Speaker 1: like my trauma personified. And one night I couldn't sleep
Speaker 1: and I wrote a letter to her, apologizing to her
Speaker 1: for what I had done to her writing UM, and
Speaker 1: it was really moving. And she's a fictional character. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I bet that would be yeah, pretty powerful for me.
Speaker 1: M hm. Right. And if you do do that and
Speaker 1: feel like you want to include that or involve that
Speaker 1: in your therapy, that would be UM, great to hear
Speaker 1: and for you to share. Also, the character I know
Speaker 1: we've talked about her a bit, UM, feel free to
Speaker 1: include her and bring her into any time. Don't tempt me.
Speaker 1: I would love it. I love I love narrative work
Speaker 1: because I think it's just a really powerful way to
Speaker 1: do post traumatic healing, especially at the beginning, UM, when
Speaker 1: the exposure of talking about your own experiences can be
Speaker 1: almost too much. UM. It can feel safer for many
Speaker 1: too to share and to talk through a character. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: mhm UM. Going back to what we were talking about
Speaker 1: about you get over scheduling yourself. UM. Did we chat
Speaker 1: about what you were afraid of if you weren't as scheduled, like, like,
Speaker 1: what would happen? UM? I have I have this if
Speaker 1: I sit still too long with myself. UM. I would
Speaker 1: describe it as like a like itching. UM. I just
Speaker 1: get really uncomfortable and then I get like this, UM,
Speaker 1: like gnawing anxiety of you you should be doing something,
Speaker 1: you should be doing something UM. And it's it's something
Speaker 1: that I also experience when I try to sleep UM,
Speaker 1: And I I think I am just afraid of where
Speaker 1: my thoughts will go if I don't occupy them. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Because I mean most of the time, even when I
Speaker 1: can't sleep, it's fine. I mean it's not great, but
Speaker 1: I can't sleep. But there's no like flashback happening or
Speaker 1: anything like that. Um. But sometimes there are, and I
Speaker 1: think that those times are powerful enough that I will
Speaker 1: do what I have to what I think will be
Speaker 1: my best bet to prevent them. M hmm. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think I'm just really uncomfortable in my own skin mhm. Um,
Speaker 1: and I I like to have distraction from it. M hm.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like you're almost like a different person
Speaker 1: when you're around other people? Yeah? Yeah, Um is my WORF.
Speaker 1: I used to say, like my greatest skill I was
Speaker 1: pretending everything was okay. Um. I think when I'm around
Speaker 1: other people, I'm just very like happy. I I I'm
Speaker 1: like happy and I lava. All my nicknames are based
Speaker 1: around laughter almost um. Yeah. And then when I'm by myself,
Speaker 1: it's like the opposite end of this spectrum. And I've
Speaker 1: gotten better, I haven't. Um, I've gotten better about being
Speaker 1: like with myself by myself because eventually I had to,
Speaker 1: like I was crashing hard. Um. That was one of
Speaker 1: the things where I knew that I probably needed to
Speaker 1: go get therapy. UM, but yeah, I think I am.
Speaker 1: When I'm out with people, I'm much more like lighter
Speaker 1: and that's because of the distraction, I think so. And
Speaker 1: I think there's also an element of um having you know,
Speaker 1: you have that social persona, UM, and my social persona
Speaker 1: is that she's like like another person. I am like UM,
Speaker 1: very um fun and outgoing and I'm always down to
Speaker 1: hang and I've always got like jokes and puns and UM,
Speaker 1: I'm just fun. And I think there's a defense around
Speaker 1: that too, where I have that underlying sense of when
Speaker 1: people realize what you really are, they'll never want to
Speaker 1: hang out with you. But if you're super fun, then
Speaker 1: they'll always like invite you to stuff, They'll want to
Speaker 1: hang out with you. Mm hmm. So it's almost like
Speaker 1: performing mm hmm. That was the sense that I was getting,
Speaker 1: you know. UM. A lot of performers talk about the
Speaker 1: idea of having a persona, and then when they are
Speaker 1: out of the um spotlights how to speak or there
Speaker 1: cameras aren't really right, then there's this lull of you know,
Speaker 1: who am I If I'm not engaging with people in
Speaker 1: ways that are expected of me. You know, there's like
Speaker 1: an identity that's formed around how other people perceive you.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. How do you think that that tendency within
Speaker 1: yourself connects to your traumatic experiences or if you think
Speaker 1: that it does it all? Actually I think um, the
Speaker 1: closest way that it does is probably ah my I
Speaker 1: mean mainly my UM desire that to not make people
Speaker 1: uncomfortable or sad. You protect people, um and make them happy,
Speaker 1: and in doing so, not sharing that with with people,
Speaker 1: not sharing what happened to me with people that are
Speaker 1: close to me, UM, like pretending everything is okay so
Speaker 1: that they don't have to worry about it or feel
Speaker 1: bad about it. M Um. To protect others at the
Speaker 1: sake of yourself yeah, um. And even you know, when
Speaker 1: you're trying to cope yourself, you don't want to admit
Speaker 1: but this has happened to you. Like there's there's even
Speaker 1: an element of that of like if I can almost
Speaker 1: pretend I am this person and then I don't have
Speaker 1: to feel like that vulnerability and that feeling, that feeling
Speaker 1: that oh I am not over it. There's something very
Speaker 1: alluring about you know what this happened to me? But
Speaker 1: I'm the life of the party. Yeah. Um, but eventually
Speaker 1: you have to go home. Mhm mhmm. Yeah. That's the
Speaker 1: thing about denial, it being one of the most primitive defenses, right,
Speaker 1: is that, um, it can only work for so long. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing about trauma, you know, and whether
Speaker 1: it's denial, avoidance, or dissociation or all of the above, Ah,
Speaker 1: it will find a way to come out mm hmm.
Speaker 1: And man of best itself, you know, which is why UM,
Speaker 1: trauma focused work can be so scary because it removes
Speaker 1: that defense. UM. But also that's the same reason why
Speaker 1: it's really powerful, because UM it has the ability to
Speaker 1: get to the root of the issue so that it
Speaker 1: can be less poignant and impactful in one's life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just talking about it like you're doing. Is a
Speaker 1: really big part of that process mm hmm. Yeah. Oh man, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's been I don't know, it does feel like
Speaker 1: I have if there's almost two people that are living
Speaker 1: inside of me. Um. Just so it sounds weird to say,
Speaker 1: but I do feel like there's the one that most
Speaker 1: people know mm hmm, and there's another one yeah, and
Speaker 1: the other one is hidden because out of is the
Speaker 1: other one hidden out of UM, fear that the people
Speaker 1: close to you would not be there for you or
Speaker 1: would look at you differently if they knew. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have a pretty decent amount of fear that when
Speaker 1: you meet people mm hmmm, I'm comfortable, um, or if
Speaker 1: they see they hear these things about you and they're thinking, oh, man, M,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to have to deal
Speaker 1: with this. And that's that's being really to my friends. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm fairly confident. Yeah, I'm almost you know, it's me.
Speaker 1: It's I'm the line M that is uncomfortable with with
Speaker 1: being open with that person. Mm hmm. Yeah yeah. And
Speaker 1: even just saying that, Um, there's a lot of emotion
Speaker 1: in that statement. I can see what makes you the
Speaker 1: most uncomfortable about that? Do you think I think? Um?
Speaker 1: I think it makes it real, It makes it like
Speaker 1: I can't and that's another thing I can't take back
Speaker 1: and did. Also, I have built myself on on making
Speaker 1: people happy and on also being strong. It feels like
Speaker 1: admitting I was weak mm hmmm. Um. And there are
Speaker 1: certain things that um, I think people find funny about
Speaker 1: me that I think if they knew this source was
Speaker 1: from traumatic experience, they would feel guilty and also like, so,
Speaker 1: for example, I'm very easily startled. Um, it's kind of
Speaker 1: like a joke and it doesn't upset me, Like I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not saying this, but I'm worried that every
Speaker 1: time someone startled me who knew that after the facts, right,
Speaker 1: there would be this moment of like, oh, yeah, that
Speaker 1: thing happened to you, right, right? So, so part of
Speaker 1: what I hear you saying is that you feel like
Speaker 1: if people knew, then they would start to think of
Speaker 1: you as either a victim or as they think about
Speaker 1: the abuse when thinking about you. Is that is that
Speaker 1: part of what I hear you saying, hm, right, and
Speaker 1: that you want to be known for so many other
Speaker 1: things M yeah, rightfully, so I can I can understand
Speaker 1: that fear. I think that's also tied into what you
Speaker 1: said about how you feel like people would think of
Speaker 1: you as weak mm hmm. You know, and I think
Speaker 1: that you know, we've talked a bit about like unhelpful
Speaker 1: um like cognitions and kind of unhelpful core beliefs around
Speaker 1: the trauma that have been internalized that will do some
Speaker 1: work on externalizing and then restoring through narrative work. But um,
Speaker 1: this idea that trauma makes somebody weak is one that
Speaker 1: I you know, I know, UM is a recurring theme
Speaker 1: in our work together, and that I hear you talk
Speaker 1: about in regards to yourself versus which is the same
Speaker 1: as like the victim versus survivor m right, um, when
Speaker 1: in fact it was actually a resilience in your strength
Speaker 1: that allows you to continue to persevere and um thrive. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And there's an element too of um, a survivor taking
Speaker 1: on the persona or the identity of weakness that absolves
Speaker 1: the offender of all of the responsibility. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. M Yeah, just throwing that out there.
Speaker 1: Not much that we have to do with that now,
Speaker 1: but bookmarking some things to make sure that we address
Speaker 1: and come back to. Yeah. Yeah, I think I've told
Speaker 1: you before. I on days where I like, I can
Speaker 1: feel compassion m um for my younger self because she
Speaker 1: does feel like a younger sister. She doesn't, she doesn't
Speaker 1: feel like me at all, But sometimes I'm like in
Speaker 1: awe of what she dealt with. Yeah. I hope for
Speaker 1: you that you can sit in that sense of awe
Speaker 1: and let that permeate you more. Uh, because when I
Speaker 1: sit with you and when I talk with you and
Speaker 1: see you, that's what I see. And I'm sure that
Speaker 1: the people in your life, UM that love you and
Speaker 1: that are close with you see the same thing. Mhm
Speaker 1: mhm mm hmm. So why don't this week We're gonna
Speaker 1: have to pause in a moment, but why don't this
Speaker 1: week you UM try to approach some of the self
Speaker 1: compassion with intentionality and UM, even if it's just a
Speaker 1: moment every day a thinking through and reflecting something that UM,
Speaker 1: you are in awe of about yourself. Okay, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna ask you about that next session. Okay, homework perfect.
Speaker 1: And that's that. That's what therapy can look like. UM.
Speaker 1: I never really know how these are going to go.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was going to talk about.
Speaker 1: I knew what I wouldn't talk about, UM, but I
Speaker 1: I believe me I had that is the last thing
Speaker 1: I thought I was And just so you know, I
Speaker 1: was not present for this. Um our producer Andrew, who
Speaker 1: was fantastic, was not present for those because we wanted
Speaker 1: you to be in your safe, in your place and
Speaker 1: make it normal as possible. With headphones and my I mean,
Speaker 1: I will say for me it felt normal, but yeah,
Speaker 1: that was something like even though we're here talking about it, obviously, UM,
Speaker 1: it was done in a private manner. And there are
Speaker 1: things we may have taken out or put up, get
Speaker 1: together whatever, not necessarily rearranged, but put together because we
Speaker 1: felt it was important. So again, we were still protecting
Speaker 1: our own um selves, in our own emotions, in our
Speaker 1: own and heal mental health. Yes, so just again Yeah,
Speaker 1: and UM. One thing I did want to mention that
Speaker 1: I have really appreciated about doing these sessions with Dr
Speaker 1: Coleman is she gives me a lot of tools like
Speaker 1: coping tools, UM, like safe place, measuring distress units. UM.
Speaker 1: Will probably come back and talk about those in future episodes. Uh.
Speaker 1: And one thing I found interesting after listening back to
Speaker 1: this is I really played it safe. I wanted to
Speaker 1: play it safe. UM. I didn't want to get into
Speaker 1: details of my abuse. But at the same time, there
Speaker 1: was something she asked me where I didn't even think
Speaker 1: about the abuse and I should have, Like, um, there's
Speaker 1: this question around control. And if I imagine my brain
Speaker 1: is Google and she's giving me a search term, it's
Speaker 1: like those sections of my life are blocked results. They
Speaker 1: didn't even appear until later, and I was thinking about it, like, oh,
Speaker 1: one of those moments. My denial game is very strong. Um.
Speaker 1: And not that the answer I gave wasn't true. It's
Speaker 1: very true, but it's just not the obvious choice at all. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I hope that if you've ever thought you
Speaker 1: were the only one that had these very severe insecurities
Speaker 1: and low self esteem, I present proof that you are not.
Speaker 1: I think you and I'd already talked about the fight
Speaker 1: that we both had a session about being feeling like
Speaker 1: we had the imposter syndrome, and specifically about this podcast,
Speaker 1: I think, oh yes, um, yep, but um, yeah, we
Speaker 1: hope that this is um made it less scary, maybe
Speaker 1: helped to stigmatize it a little for you listeners, And
Speaker 1: you will be hearing Samantha's in the next episode. But
Speaker 1: in the meantime, UM, thank you so much for joining us, Samantha,
Speaker 1: Thank you guys let me be a part of this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and thanks to Dr Coleman, who agreed to do this
Speaker 1: after after months of careful thoughts. So, if you're in
Speaker 1: Georgia or in Vermont and you handle Ford therapy, she
Speaker 1: is fantastic. Um. Thus far she has called me out
Speaker 1: on a lot of things, which is in a good way. Yes,
Speaker 1: in a good way. UM. Thanks as always to our
Speaker 1: super producer Andrew Howard. Andrew, we love you, we do,
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening. If you would like
Speaker 1: to write to as you can, Our email is mom
Speaker 1: Stuff at our stuff works dot com. You can also
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and on
Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You. Give us the resources.
Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never Told You was a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcast from I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.