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Speaker 1: there on air Drop. Jack Murphy is in Europe this show,
Speaker 1: uh seeing his wife Benny. He'll be back next show,
Speaker 1: but we have a lot We have Eric Barlson coming
Speaker 1: in studio. But before we get to that, you guys
Speaker 1: might remember Michael Behannah from episode eight and more recently
Speaker 1: in the news, Michael Behanna has been granted a full
Speaker 1: parton by President Trump. So I reached out to Vicky Behannah,
Speaker 1: his mother, uh, to talk about that, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: dial here up right now and we're gonna get started
Speaker 1: with that. On with us is Vicky Behenna, the mother
Speaker 1: of First Lieutenant Michael Behannah, who has been pardoned by
Speaker 1: President Trump just recently on May six. For those unfamiliar
Speaker 1: with the story, we had Michael back on episode eight eight.
Speaker 1: I've spoken to Vicky uh for many years prior to that.
Speaker 1: Michael was granted parole and released on March fourteen, ended
Speaker 1: up serving just under five years of his fifteen years
Speaker 1: sentence in killing no On terrorist Ali Monsor Mohammed, who
Speaker 1: he saw kill UM members on base while he was there.
Speaker 1: And Uh, I just wanted to get the reaction of
Speaker 1: of you to this full pardon and actually, what's been
Speaker 1: going on over these past three years or really four years,
Speaker 1: it's been a while, come and thanks for it that
Speaker 1: I'm looking has been five years, uh since Michael has
Speaker 1: been home, and just how how that's been for you
Speaker 1: and the family. And everything right. Well, I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: we were elated in March fourteen when he was paroled
Speaker 1: to come home. Um. Since then, I mean, Michael has
Speaker 1: continued with what he wanted to do when he was
Speaker 1: in level worth of that is ranching. So he's been
Speaker 1: working on a cattle ranch and then he has his
Speaker 1: own goat farm where he raises goats. Um uh, yes,
Speaker 1: so he's he's been enjoying, i think, just being outside
Speaker 1: and enjoying nature and open spaces. And then, um, we
Speaker 1: started working on the pardon. As you can imagine, as
Speaker 1: soon as he came home, we had to redo the application. Um,
Speaker 1: when there was a change in presidence, So we did
Speaker 1: that in early with that been now fifteen. Oh I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: that would have been six I'm sorry, yeah, because Trump
Speaker 1: was then in office. Makes sense, yes, but yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we we've we weren't sure when or if
Speaker 1: the pardon would happen, and then got word, of course
Speaker 1: last week that the President had pardoned Michael. So we're
Speaker 1: very happy. I'm very grateful. What I'm wondering is, I'm
Speaker 1: sure that there are just countless members, are accountless people
Speaker 1: that the president gets asked about pardoning. Do you have
Speaker 1: any idea of how this came across his desk and
Speaker 1: how this became a priority for him. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we were, um, you know, contacting
Speaker 1: everybody that we thought might have, um, you know, a
Speaker 1: way to contact the president. I just felt that if
Speaker 1: if he was made aware of Michael's case, UM, that
Speaker 1: he would you know, be sympathetic and have some empathy
Speaker 1: and give Michael a fresh start. So, you know, we
Speaker 1: were contacting people here in Oklahoma. We had a law
Speaker 1: firm in Washington, d C. That was working their ind
Speaker 1: on Washington, d C. Inside the built way, trying to
Speaker 1: get the president to or try to get this to
Speaker 1: his attention so he would see the case. I don't
Speaker 1: know what actually worked. You know what I was curious
Speaker 1: about and I mentioned this last episode and it was
Speaker 1: just me purely speculating because I don't I don't know
Speaker 1: anything about this, and you obviously know more. But this
Speaker 1: is really the first president that talk radio has kind
Speaker 1: of had the ear of. And that's how I found
Speaker 1: out about Behannah's case was through Michael Savage talking about it,
Speaker 1: and there were various other talk radio show hosts that
Speaker 1: that discussed this matter. It wasn't really discussed in the
Speaker 1: mainstream media while Michael was in Fort Leavenworth. So I
Speaker 1: was curious if maybe someone on talk radio got to
Speaker 1: speak to the President and say, hey, this is a
Speaker 1: big issue and people would be on board with partnering
Speaker 1: this man. Yeah, I mean it could have' I just
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, I mean, we we When
Speaker 1: the President called and talked to Michael, he didn't explain
Speaker 1: how it is that this his case came to his attention.
Speaker 1: So who knows. Like I said, for the past um
Speaker 1: really five years, since Michael has been home, we've been
Speaker 1: talking to people about We knew we wanted to file
Speaker 1: an application the Pardon Office and trying to get Michael pardon.
Speaker 1: I mean, he was even we were even asked last
Speaker 1: year when we were before the Army Clemency U Parole
Speaker 1: Board if we were going to ask for a pardon
Speaker 1: for Michael. So I think a lot of people knew that, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, we were wanting to go that route. I
Speaker 1: just don't know what the trigger was. I don't know
Speaker 1: what who or what or how it happened. Interesting, So,
Speaker 1: did you and Michael get to possibly meet the President. No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: he called Michael, um a we could go Monday. He
Speaker 1: called him on the phone and told him and that
Speaker 1: he was giving him a pardon. That must have been crazy, though,
Speaker 1: getting a call from President Trump, I mean, especially unexpectedly
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I mean, he tells the story that
Speaker 1: he was actually on the phone talking to my husband
Speaker 1: his dad, and um, he got a call and let
Speaker 1: it just roll over the voicemail. And then when he
Speaker 1: got off the phone call with my husband, he called
Speaker 1: the number back and it was a two o two number,
Speaker 1: and um, a person by the name of Molly answered
Speaker 1: the phone and said that she was with President Trump's
Speaker 1: office and and Michael said, you know, somebody just left
Speaker 1: a message for me from this number, and she said, yes,
Speaker 1: you know, the President would like to talk to you.
Speaker 1: He's on the other line right now. Can he call
Speaker 1: you back? Um? And Michael said, well, of course, and
Speaker 1: call me back. And he just kind of, um, you know,
Speaker 1: waited for the call. And about a minute later, the
Speaker 1: President called him directly on his cell phone and was
Speaker 1: just explained to him that he was granting him apart
Speaker 1: that that's truly got to be unreal to get that
Speaker 1: phone call it and it must feel like a true
Speaker 1: center of redemption for him. Well, I think it. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you could see Michael before and and after, I mean,
Speaker 1: to me, it looks like a wait has been lifted
Speaker 1: from him. I mean, he is so grateful for the
Speaker 1: grant of mercy. I mean, really, that's what a pardon is.
Speaker 1: It's an act of grace, and um, he feels I
Speaker 1: think that he can, you know, kind of start a
Speaker 1: new and um, you know, and I think that's how
Speaker 1: he's looking at it. And then joint and I mean,
Speaker 1: there are a lot more possibilities available to him now
Speaker 1: and then we're available to him a week ago. So
Speaker 1: he's just very grateful. Um, we don't know how his
Speaker 1: case floated to the top, but he's very grateful it happened, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I believe it should have. I don't know if
Speaker 1: are familiar with who we had on last episode, but
Speaker 1: we had on Major Fred Galvin, who was the major
Speaker 1: from the guys in mar Sock seven who were accused
Speaker 1: of gunning down civilians in Afghanistan uh and was more
Speaker 1: recently exonerated. And it is absolutely not what went down.
Speaker 1: And we got interviews with him prior to that explaining
Speaker 1: what really happened. And luckily, um, one of the congressmen
Speaker 1: in South Carolina made an issue of this and was
Speaker 1: able to get these guys names queered. But Fred Galvin,
Speaker 1: when he's spoken about it in depth with us, was
Speaker 1: saying that just having his name out there for these
Speaker 1: war crimes was hurting his chances of things like getting
Speaker 1: a job. And when you googled Fred Galvin, people believed
Speaker 1: he was a war criminal of some sort. And so
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering from Michael, even though he was released
Speaker 1: prior to the pardon, was there any issues that that
Speaker 1: he came across in his own professional life. Well, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, first of all, Michael, having spent five years
Speaker 1: in leaven Worth, had kind of decided in his mind
Speaker 1: the last thing he wanted to do was work in
Speaker 1: an office again, and he wanted to control his own
Speaker 1: destiny a little bit better than it had been controlled before.
Speaker 1: And so he wasn't really interested in applying for me
Speaker 1: to go up. The background checks would be um taken.
Speaker 1: But of course, you know, he wanted to volunteer at
Speaker 1: a couple of of nonprofit organizations here in Oklahoma, and
Speaker 1: when he started making inquiries, found out that they did
Speaker 1: background checks. I mean even for him to be a
Speaker 1: little league coach, which is what they're always needing, and
Speaker 1: particularly where Michael's living living right now, Um, he couldn't
Speaker 1: qualify to be a little league coach or volunteer for
Speaker 1: some of these nonprofit organizations because of his background. And
Speaker 1: so now with the pardon, uh, you know, he's hoping
Speaker 1: that that that will give him more opportunities to do
Speaker 1: that kind of work and to serve, which is what
Speaker 1: he's wanted to do anyway. I mean, that's why he
Speaker 1: volunteered to serve his country. That's just kind of his spirit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if this is going to be the first
Speaker 1: of many pardons like this for President Trump. You know,
Speaker 1: it would just be speculating from both of our parts.
Speaker 1: But Jack Murphy, the co the other host of this show,
Speaker 1: was saying on the last episode that he thinks, um
Speaker 1: Eddie Gallagher, Chief Eddie Gallagher, which I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: you're familiar with the case. He believes he could see
Speaker 1: Trump pardnering him before his reelection. Yeah. Well, and you
Speaker 1: know that's one of the things I think that Michael
Speaker 1: wants to make sure, uh, the President understands and others,
Speaker 1: and that is that there are men still in love
Speaker 1: and worth. I mean, Clint Lawrance and John Hatley are
Speaker 1: still in love and worth for incidents that occurred when
Speaker 1: they were serving their country in Afghanistan. And I lack.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's one of the things I speak
Speaker 1: to a lot of organizations here in Oklahoma, and I
Speaker 1: try to help people understand what I perceive is a
Speaker 1: rush to judgment when it comes to service members and
Speaker 1: combat and I just think that we need to relax
Speaker 1: and get a little bit more benefit as a doubt,
Speaker 1: when we're talking about combat soldiers and marines who are
Speaker 1: trying to make calls life and death calls in a
Speaker 1: combat zone, and I just think we judge those men
Speaker 1: and now win them far too harshly. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: know a lot of people would agree with you. I mean,
Speaker 1: when we talked about this last time, which was now
Speaker 1: five years ago, which is hard to believe, I remember
Speaker 1: Jack saying that sometimes it's treated as if these decisions
Speaker 1: are made from like the starship enterprise. That's not the
Speaker 1: way it works in the heat of war. No, No,
Speaker 1: And it's so easy, I think in the comfort and
Speaker 1: security of our own homes in towns, you know, the states,
Speaker 1: to say well, you shouldn't have done it like that.
Speaker 1: You know, I understand that sitting in the comfort and
Speaker 1: safety of our homes, but you know, unless we walk
Speaker 1: the walk and walk in the shoes of these soldiers
Speaker 1: and marines, I just think it's not our time to judge. Um,
Speaker 1: you know what they do there. And like I said,
Speaker 1: Michael was really confirmed about John Hatley. John Hatley has
Speaker 1: been in win O. We're ten years. I mean he
Speaker 1: served his country nineteen and a half years. He was
Speaker 1: the first sergeant of a company and he's still in
Speaker 1: level Worth waiting for his release. Yeah. Well, how could
Speaker 1: people do anything to help with those been that Michael
Speaker 1: is concerned about. I would love people to write letters
Speaker 1: to the president. Has had to be a long letter,
Speaker 1: but just the letter. Sam. Please look at the other
Speaker 1: soldiers who are currently in level Worth and again that's
Speaker 1: Flint Lawrence and John Hatley. Derek Miller, who has been
Speaker 1: a soldier that's been there I think pretty close to
Speaker 1: nine eight or nine years, is thank god, going to
Speaker 1: be released on twenty. But in addition to the two
Speaker 1: that are still in Love and word, remember we had
Speaker 1: the eleven, wor ten. Most of those gentlemen now are
Speaker 1: home with their families, they've been paroled, but they still
Speaker 1: had the stigma of a murder conviction. Um. And so
Speaker 1: you know, these again are good men that made judgment
Speaker 1: calls in a combat zone that somebody has said that
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have done that. But they're all good men.
Speaker 1: They're they're not troublemakers. They're all working, supporting families and
Speaker 1: trying to move on with their life. And we would
Speaker 1: love to see pardons for all of those men as
Speaker 1: well who are currently out but still under you know,
Speaker 1: the the cover of a felony conviction like that while
Speaker 1: serving their country. Yeah, well said. And I really appreciate
Speaker 1: taking the time and coming on with us, because this
Speaker 1: story is at least for you guys, luckily and thankfully
Speaker 1: over that this is a chapter that you can put
Speaker 1: behind you. And I'm very grateful that the President did this,
Speaker 1: just as someone who followed the story. And Michael was
Speaker 1: definitely a source of inspiration for myself when I was
Speaker 1: going through tough times, just thinking that what he was
Speaker 1: going through is far worse than anything you or I
Speaker 1: have seen. And uh, this is well deserved. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much for for taking the time and giving
Speaker 1: us this update and and luckily putting you know, an
Speaker 1: happy ending to this very dark chapter for for your family. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean it feels like you said, this chapter is
Speaker 1: now closed, that you know, the fight for us doesn't end.
Speaker 1: As I said, there are still um eight men that
Speaker 1: have soe many convictions on them while they were serving
Speaker 1: their country, and two men and there's still a level worse.
Speaker 1: So we'll continue to work to to help those families
Speaker 1: and those men um at least be granted mercy and
Speaker 1: the ability to have a fresh start. Yeah. Absolutely, well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Vicky. Thank you for taking the
Speaker 1: time and coming on with me, and I know our
Speaker 1: audience is going to appreciate it, and thank you for
Speaker 1: reaching out to me and sharing Michael's story over the years.
Speaker 1: To thank you absolutely, Thank you so much and stay
Speaker 1: in touch. Great having Vicky Behannah on and like I said,
Speaker 1: it's just a great ending to a really dark period
Speaker 1: for her for her family, and I'm really honored that
Speaker 1: I've spoken with her several times and also got the
Speaker 1: chance to speak to Michael with Jack and you can
Speaker 1: listen back to that an episode eighty eight with Eric
Speaker 1: Burlson coming on, former Green Beret. Really excited for that.
Speaker 1: But before we get to it, be sure to check
Speaker 1: out Create Club. It's a club fore men by men
Speaker 1: of gear, hand picked by Special Operations veterans. Now, I've
Speaker 1: been a little out of the loop with some changes
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Speaker 1: we're just selling the Dash one crate at a seasonal
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Speaker 1: now is the time to sign up for the spec
Speaker 1: Ops Channel, our channel that offers the most exclusive shows,
Speaker 1: documentaries and interviews covering the most exciting military content today.
Speaker 1: The spec Ops Channel premier show Training Cell follows former
Speaker 1: Special Operations Forces as they participate in the most advanced
Speaker 1: training in the country, everything from shooting schools, defensive driving,
Speaker 1: jungle and winter warfare, climbing, and much more. Again, you
Speaker 1: can watch this content by subscribing to the spec Ops
Speaker 1: channel at spec ops channel dot com and take advantage
Speaker 1: of a membership for own month that spec ops channel
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Speaker 1: signed up at the news rep dot com, you've got
Speaker 1: to get on board expert reporting and actionable intelligence from
Speaker 1: your favorite writers you've heard on here, like Jack Murphy
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Speaker 1: at the news rep dot com. That's the news rep
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Speaker 1: we have our own software radio app you can download
Speaker 1: for free on iPhone or Android, and our homepage is
Speaker 1: softwarep radio dot com, where you can see our full
Speaker 1: archive shows, including episode eighty eight where we had Michael
Speaker 1: Behan on as always keep up with us at SOFTWAREP
Speaker 1: Radio as well. And with that, Eric Barlson is about
Speaker 1: to enter this studio, so let's get right over to
Speaker 1: him joining us in studio as promised. Eric Burlson, author
Speaker 1: of Separating from Service, the Mental Health Handbook for Transitioning Veterans,
Speaker 1: was just released earlier this year. UH, and your background
Speaker 1: is in Special Forces as an assistant Operations and Intelligence
Speaker 1: sergeant from two thousand five to two thousand thirteen. And
Speaker 1: the first thing off the bat is Jack was kind
Speaker 1: of disappointed he couldn't be in studio for this because
Speaker 1: he's in Europe. So how do you and Jack know
Speaker 1: each other? We actually went through the Q course around
Speaker 1: the same time and cross paths a number of times,
Speaker 1: and then both served in fifth Special Forces Group UM.
Speaker 1: I was there from seven to thirteen, so oh five
Speaker 1: O seven and the Q course and then seven to thirteen,
Speaker 1: first as a communications sergeant, later as an intelligence sergeant
Speaker 1: and UM and so I'd run into him from time
Speaker 1: to time UH in in schools or or at the
Speaker 1: UH group reunion things like that. Very cool. You tend
Speaker 1: to see the people that you went through the Q course,
Speaker 1: like just run into him randomly. I've actually probably awesome stories.
Speaker 1: I'm sure I have some of the most random stories,
Speaker 1: like running into guys and coffee shops overseas and you're like,
Speaker 1: I know you from a place, and then we ended
Speaker 1: up going through like Phase two together or something bizarre
Speaker 1: how that happens. But that's awesome, man. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: he wanted to be here, and he was actually the
Speaker 1: person who was like, we gotta get Eric Barlson on,
Speaker 1: and then you know, his schedule just got kind of
Speaker 1: all over the place. But with that, before we get
Speaker 1: into the book itself, i'd love to hear about your
Speaker 1: background in the Army and how you became a member
Speaker 1: of Special Forces in Green Beret. Yeah, so I started.
Speaker 1: So I grew up in Texas. I grew up in
Speaker 1: North Texas and the DFW Metroplex and went to school
Speaker 1: at the University of North Texas. While I was there,
Speaker 1: I dated a woman whose uncle was green and I
Speaker 1: always wanted to serve. I always wanted to join the Army.
Speaker 1: UM and I talked to him and just just learned
Speaker 1: a lot more about the Special Forces and I kind
Speaker 1: of fell in love with their mission. This whole um
Speaker 1: romantic notion of the guerrilla warrior and training, equipping and
Speaker 1: leading foreign foreign soldiers really appealed to me. It was
Speaker 1: more cerebral and more social and and sort of more
Speaker 1: personabal than than just like the the typical infantry route. Right. Um,
Speaker 1: not to say that those aren't social environments in terms
Speaker 1: of like the people that you're serving with in in
Speaker 1: your unit, but um, this was much more empowering for
Speaker 1: the communities in which we were operating. I had this
Speaker 1: idea that we were going to be helping people help themselves,
Speaker 1: and that sort of narrative really appealed to me. I
Speaker 1: feel like, just as an outsider, the guys that I
Speaker 1: meet who were Special Force just tend to be the
Speaker 1: guys who could speak different languages and get more embedded
Speaker 1: in the culture. Yeah. Yeah, there there is definitely, um,
Speaker 1: sort of a social intelligence that has to come with it. Um.
Speaker 1: He actually gave me some very sound advice that I
Speaker 1: totally ignored, which was to go into the range of
Speaker 1: regiment first and really learn how to patrol and really
Speaker 1: learn how it, which is what Jack did. And um,
Speaker 1: and looking back, I think that if I could do
Speaker 1: things differently, that might have been a different path and
Speaker 1: and it's one that I recommend to young people that
Speaker 1: I want to go into Special Forces, like, go cut
Speaker 1: your teeth someplace else. It's a little better suited for
Speaker 1: uh young warriors to to grow up a little bit.
Speaker 1: Um SF isn't really the place for that. And when
Speaker 1: I went through s F, I was older in a
Speaker 1: little more mature in some ways and not quite mature
Speaker 1: in some other ways. It really took some reflections, particularly
Speaker 1: after I separated, to to understand uh UM where I
Speaker 1: brought some immaturity that that caused some discomfort for me
Speaker 1: and my peers as I was going through the Q
Speaker 1: course and as I was going through UM my military career, right,
Speaker 1: But but it was a very positive experience, and it
Speaker 1: was a really transformative experience. I'm going into Special Forces.
Speaker 1: I took on a lot more responsibility, and I took
Speaker 1: on there was a lot more gravity to what I
Speaker 1: was doing that really appealed to me. I really felt
Speaker 1: like I was making a difference, and I'm very proud
Speaker 1: of my service for UM, the things that I affected
Speaker 1: and the people that I worked with. So, since this
Speaker 1: book is about transitioning and I was reading through it,
Speaker 1: what was the decision where you decided to retire from
Speaker 1: service and and go do something else and conquer new goals.
Speaker 1: So I'll be totally blunt for your readers or for
Speaker 1: your listeners, excuse me. I when I was UM in
Speaker 1: Special Forces, that was my second trip to Iraq, and
Speaker 1: I was on a team that there wasn't a great fit,
Speaker 1: there wasn't a great dynamic. I ended up leaving that
Speaker 1: team on that deployment, and I it was really struggling
Speaker 1: to to find my place UM and later, like the
Speaker 1: very next month, my father died by suicide, and my
Speaker 1: UM my company, UM, I think they just didn't really
Speaker 1: know what to do with me at the time. They
Speaker 1: didn't they weren't going to put me on another team,
Speaker 1: and I was. I was really struggling and really overwhelmed
Speaker 1: with what was happening with my family. And they ended
Speaker 1: up moving me to another team and a sister company,
Speaker 1: and I really thrived on that team. I worked really
Speaker 1: well with everybody on there. I developed some really close
Speaker 1: friendships and UM I went on a deployment that for
Speaker 1: which I was very proud. But that whole transition period
Speaker 1: coincided with a number of suicides in group, and UM
Speaker 1: I started having suicidal ideation and it was really an
Speaker 1: extremely difficult and painful time in my life. And basically
Speaker 1: it came down to I need to take care of myself.
Speaker 1: I really need to address all this and I can't
Speaker 1: do it and be fully supportive of my team, um
Speaker 1: without doing this. At the same time, when when my
Speaker 1: dad died, I was looking into business school, was looking
Speaker 1: into graduate school, and already starting to study for the GMAT,
Speaker 1: which is the test to get into business school. I
Speaker 1: performed very very well on that, and so it wasn't
Speaker 1: just a question of running away from something that was
Speaker 1: at the moment very difficult for me. I had an
Speaker 1: opportunity to take advantage of to change my life and
Speaker 1: change the trajectory of my life. That makes sense, So
Speaker 1: that may it makes sense why this issue is so
Speaker 1: important for you. And the thing is that it also, UM,
Speaker 1: I get why you jumped right into something new, because
Speaker 1: you probably have so much time in your head and
Speaker 1: over analyzing these types of things that you do have
Speaker 1: to I would imagine jump right into something else as
Speaker 1: opposed to just having time to yourself to Although you
Speaker 1: advocate for things like therapy in this book, you probably
Speaker 1: need some type of an outlet. Yeah, so there's so
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you use that word over analyze, because
Speaker 1: there's there's a big difference between sitting and thinking and
Speaker 1: ruminating and getting yourself trapped in a cycle and processing
Speaker 1: through uh, lots of different emotions and processing through lots
Speaker 1: of different options to come to an ideal situation. Right,
Speaker 1: Like um, time can improve decisions, but only if you're
Speaker 1: actually working to to look at things and reframe the
Speaker 1: way that you're looking at things in a way that's
Speaker 1: going to lead to better decision making, right. And that's
Speaker 1: not a process that happens naturally. It takes a lot
Speaker 1: of work, and a therapist can walk one through that work,
Speaker 1: um most easily. Frankly, I mean a lot of the
Speaker 1: things that we need to do as people in order
Speaker 1: to grow up, in order to process our emotions, in
Speaker 1: order to deal with our baggage. I like to call
Speaker 1: it checking our baggage. Um. You can do on your own.
Speaker 1: It's not like psychology invented maturing, right. Uh. Those things
Speaker 1: have happened and have traditionally happened with a variety of
Speaker 1: different means. What a therapist can do is help you
Speaker 1: do it with less pain. Help you do it with
Speaker 1: um less struggle. I liken a lot of the growth
Speaker 1: that comes from therapy and from personal development with working
Speaker 1: out in the gym, because there are a lot of parallels, right,
Speaker 1: Like you can go to the gym and you can
Speaker 1: pick up some weights and you can get stronger in
Speaker 1: a lot of different ways, is right without ever hiring
Speaker 1: a personal trainer. But those who have worked with personal
Speaker 1: trainers to establish good form, establish a good routine, UH,
Speaker 1: really understand where they need to change their workout and
Speaker 1: when tend to see their growth happen much faster and
Speaker 1: and with a lot less just like pitfall kinds of struggles.
Speaker 1: So at what point did you because it sounds like
Speaker 1: you've had experience with it, and as I said in
Speaker 1: the book, you advocate for therapy, at what point did
Speaker 1: you jump into therapy? Uh? When I separated, I'm laughing
Speaker 1: because um I in two thousand thirteen, um I deployed
Speaker 1: to Saudi Arabia for a few months. When I came
Speaker 1: back a week later, I got married to my wife. Uh.
Speaker 1: The week after that was my last day at work
Speaker 1: in the army, and then I had three months of
Speaker 1: transition lead and so we went on a three month
Speaker 1: honeymoon to Spain. When we came back, my wife was
Speaker 1: pregnant with our first lot of things. The week after that,
Speaker 1: I started business school. So in a twelve month period,
Speaker 1: I was in Saudi Arabia, separated from the army, moved
Speaker 1: from Kentucky to Texas, spent three months in Spain, started
Speaker 1: business school, and had a child. So here's a pro tip.
Speaker 1: Don't do that, like throwing all of these different changes
Speaker 1: in your life all at the same time. Like it
Speaker 1: it made me feel like you can rip off the
Speaker 1: band aid. But it was extremely painful. I was in
Speaker 1: a new marriage, I was working ninety hours a week
Speaker 1: on business school, UM, I was a new parent. My
Speaker 1: body started reacting to to this new environment in UM
Speaker 1: kind of painful ways. I have a chronic back injury
Speaker 1: and a hip injury and a lot of those I
Speaker 1: didn't realize how it was compensating for them in the military,
Speaker 1: and like outside of that structure, I started experiencing a
Speaker 1: lot more pain. So that needed UM more yes, in
Speaker 1: the sense that it's from UM repetitive stress and a
Speaker 1: lot of workout stuff and UM and then like just
Speaker 1: body armor and kid and jumping around and all that,
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of a small frame guy, so it
Speaker 1: affects my body differently than it might a larger frame guy.
Speaker 1: But UM, basically the gist of it is that with
Speaker 1: all of that going on, I my thoughts kept getting
Speaker 1: darker and darker. And um, that was when I really,
Speaker 1: um focused on finding the right therapist. I had the
Speaker 1: wrong therapist twice before I landed on the guy that
Speaker 1: I've been seeing for the past four or five years now. UM,
Speaker 1: and that was really painful too, Like I just wasn't
Speaker 1: getting what I needed out of it. They weren't really
Speaker 1: well equipped to deal with veterans issues. They weren't really
Speaker 1: well equipped to deal with someone who was a little
Speaker 1: more older. Um, who was a little older and who
Speaker 1: was a little bit more mature and who I just
Speaker 1: needed a different kind of engagement, you know. And UM,
Speaker 1: what I found as I was going through therapy was that, UM, first,
Speaker 1: I'm just naturally very curious person, very inquisitive. I want
Speaker 1: to understand what's happening, We understand what we're talking about.
Speaker 1: I want to understand these things, and I want to
Speaker 1: go off on my own and sort of confirm what
Speaker 1: I'm learning with like independently, right, And so there are
Speaker 1: times when I'd go through like a growth period where
Speaker 1: things are really I'm really struggling. I'm having these intense
Speaker 1: dreams and I'm processing some old emotion. What the hell
Speaker 1: is going on here? Like why am I thinking about
Speaker 1: these things in this different way? Why why is this
Speaker 1: a difficult period for me when previously I hadn't been
Speaker 1: or or why is this new thing suddenly popping up?
Speaker 1: And so I started doing research on what was happening
Speaker 1: with my mind and with my brain, and like trying
Speaker 1: to reconcile those things. I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't understand the difference between those, Like the brain is
Speaker 1: the the the matter, right, It's like that that's the
Speaker 1: blood and the cells and the tissue and everything that
Speaker 1: make up this thing that comprises us. Uh. The mind,
Speaker 1: by contrast, is a process that the brain and the
Speaker 1: nervous system go through. And so to optimize the mind,
Speaker 1: what you're thinking of is optimizing the process. And you
Speaker 1: can't optimize the process without un understanding how the brain works.
Speaker 1: And so there are these like sort of complementary ideas
Speaker 1: that I had to pass through about based fundamentally and
Speaker 1: how the brain works, and then like moving from there
Speaker 1: into um, what I needed to do to to make
Speaker 1: my mind function the way that I wanted it to,
Speaker 1: which was to not continually bring up really painful experiences
Speaker 1: in like mundane day to day life. Right. Um, that's
Speaker 1: problematic for most people, Like that's that's an expression of
Speaker 1: PTSD and of of trauma that is really disruptive to
Speaker 1: people's day to day living. Um, but why does it happen?
Speaker 1: Why do we do this? Why is my mind doing this?
Speaker 1: And that can be really frustrating question until you start
Speaker 1: realizing why the brain sort of embedded those traumatic experiences
Speaker 1: in the first place, because it's biologically useful. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're h tribe man Johnny walking through the jungle,
Speaker 1: right and you come across a tiger and like you
Speaker 1: see tiger tracks, you see tiger marks on the tree,
Speaker 1: and you see a little bit of orange there in
Speaker 1: the grass, um, and then have a near death experience
Speaker 1: the tiger. Your brain is going to be like, wow,
Speaker 1: that was intense. Uh, let's start looking for those things.
Speaker 1: And then I'm gonna queue you up with this intense
Speaker 1: feeling every time I see tiger tracks or tiger marks
Speaker 1: or anything orange in the jungle. Right, even if it's
Speaker 1: an orange, even if it's something that's uh, you know,
Speaker 1: possibly beneficial and really good for you, you may see
Speaker 1: this thing and suddenly have this intense experience because your
Speaker 1: brain has told you this is important for you to
Speaker 1: pay attention to. This is a survival thing, right. I
Speaker 1: call this resonant experiences. You know, whenever you play a
Speaker 1: piano and a guitar is nearby, and the guitar strings rattle,
Speaker 1: they vibrate, right because they're on the same frequency. That's
Speaker 1: loosely what's happening. Whenever you have an intense experience with
Speaker 1: something that is not directly related to what's happening right
Speaker 1: that moment, Which, by the way, is what separates this book,
Speaker 1: separating from Service from a lot of books about veteran transition,
Speaker 1: is that you do go into the neuroscience of things
Speaker 1: pretty in depth. Uh. And it's got a lot of
Speaker 1: practical advice that I even think someone like me who
Speaker 1: is not a veteran, could use about, because we all
Speaker 1: go through different things about who it's okay to open
Speaker 1: up with and who it's not okay to open up
Speaker 1: with and talk about. You know, maybe the family member
Speaker 1: you trust as opposed to someone that you just met.
Speaker 1: And I get that. It's I think it's practical advice
Speaker 1: for all different people when they wanted to ask you
Speaker 1: about those you know. For you, coming from the perspective
Speaker 1: of someone who studied this, who studied the neuroscience, who
Speaker 1: put out this book, there's definitely less of a stigma
Speaker 1: now about seeing a therapist, about finding ways to get
Speaker 1: over PTSD. Yet we're still having twenty two or approximately
Speaker 1: twenty two suicides today. It's still a major issue. Why
Speaker 1: are we not decreasing this when the aware there's definitely
Speaker 1: awareness there. Uh, there's definitely less of an issue of
Speaker 1: you know, guys thinking that it's that it's not tough
Speaker 1: to go see a therapist or work things out in
Speaker 1: a different way, and yet we still haven't made that
Speaker 1: much progress. Yeah, so I have some opinions about this,
Speaker 1: and um, a hundred percent sure that people are going
Speaker 1: to disagree with me on this. However, there's a couple
Speaker 1: of reasons. One people think of therapy and going to
Speaker 1: see a therapist is something one something one should do
Speaker 1: when they're in crisis. Uh, and that's a really difficult
Speaker 1: time to do it. Okay, if if you are, um,
Speaker 1: if you're lifting weights, right, the worst time to ask
Speaker 1: for a spot or is when you're actually holding your
Speaker 1: math however, many hundreds of pounds at your max right, uh.
Speaker 1: And the worst time to enlist a personal trainer is
Speaker 1: when you need a spotter under that weight right, like
Speaker 1: you're you're not going to be mid squat and saying,
Speaker 1: pay personal trainer, guy, let's talk about your rates right
Speaker 1: like that. That's that's not that's not a great time
Speaker 1: at all. Um. And So the idea that we're going
Speaker 1: to spend all of this money talking about crisis hotlines
Speaker 1: and talking about um getting help at the moment of crisis, UM,
Speaker 1: I just think it's misplaced. It's utterly misplaced. Because if
Speaker 1: if we are trying to address deep seated emotional and
Speaker 1: psychological issues at the moment of crisis, the best thing
Speaker 1: that we can do is divert the moment of crisis.
Speaker 1: But how long is it going to be before that
Speaker 1: it happens again? Yeah, it's totally abandoned. Um. And so
Speaker 1: in order to to really decrease that, we have to
Speaker 1: do something much much more systematic, much more broad, and
Speaker 1: much more deep. And what that means is is not
Speaker 1: just saying like, oh, you know, all these veterans are
Speaker 1: are are in crisis, are going to be in crisis
Speaker 1: on the verge of killing themselves. Let's force everybody into
Speaker 1: UM therapy into hurt them Like that's that's not going
Speaker 1: to be helpful either. In fact, that takes away people's
Speaker 1: personal liberty. Um, that's going to I've seen proposals about
Speaker 1: people like automatically enrolling veterans into the v A and
Speaker 1: having them proactively outreached the veterans, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that really makes sense either, um, because there there are
Speaker 1: some veterans who don't have these issues. Yeah, totally. And
Speaker 1: more to the point, there are many veterans who are
Speaker 1: not in crisis. And I'm not saying that every veteran
Speaker 1: is going to get in crisis, but you can't necessarily
Speaker 1: separate those like I don't know what the signals are
Speaker 1: that a veteran is going to be in crisis in
Speaker 1: a year, Like tell me those variables. You know. That's
Speaker 1: that's an incredible, incredibly complex topic. What you could do, however,
Speaker 1: and this is really what this book is trying to address,
Speaker 1: is talk about mental health from a baseline perspective, say like,
Speaker 1: what what does health look like? Um, what are the
Speaker 1: things that are not going to support how what is
Speaker 1: healthy processing of emotions and traumatic traumatic experiences look like?
Speaker 1: And what does transitioning look like healthily within different verticals
Speaker 1: of one's life? And then you say, okay, we've got
Speaker 1: this thing, um, and is a quick aside. Uh. One
Speaker 1: thing that I realized with this book is that not
Speaker 1: a lot of veterans are just going to go out
Speaker 1: and buy it. And I realized that when I was
Speaker 1: when I was just starting to write it, like, um,
Speaker 1: that was not expected behavior. And um, this was sort
Speaker 1: of validated when I launched this. I got thousands and
Speaker 1: thousands of shares across social media, right, but not a
Speaker 1: lot of individual people buying it. That tells me that
Speaker 1: a lot of people are like, this is important, we
Speaker 1: should definitely do this, but I don't know. But I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't need it, right, So, UM, what I'm actually
Speaker 1: trying to do is find organizations that already have a program,
Speaker 1: that already are working with veterans and transition includes military units,
Speaker 1: um at the point of transition, that includes veteran service organizations,
Speaker 1: universities that process a lot of veterans through private practitioners
Speaker 1: and companies that have programmatic veteran transition programs, right like
Speaker 1: I think of your sort of sort of corporate transition programs,
Speaker 1: and all of these have, uh, some kind of programmatic
Speaker 1: way of teaching veterans how to read resume, how to
Speaker 1: communicate their military experience into corporate speed that sort of thing. Um,
Speaker 1: by including a mental health aspect, what they would do
Speaker 1: is provide veterans a way to think about their own
Speaker 1: mental health, to think about, um, what they're dealing with,
Speaker 1: to think about what the transition is going to look like,
Speaker 1: and even when they're having an intense experience, to be like, Okay, um,
Speaker 1: this may not be really related to what's happening to
Speaker 1: me right now. And like, just giving that additional idea
Speaker 1: that their brain and their mind is working in ways
Speaker 1: that it was absolutely designed to but that are like
Speaker 1: ill fitting in this new context can provide them the
Speaker 1: space to deal with those things and not be self
Speaker 1: attacking or uh, not be lashing out at the world
Speaker 1: around it. And those things are still going to happen
Speaker 1: because we're all human and we get overwhelmed with things.
Speaker 1: But um, the idea is to kind of reduce the
Speaker 1: intensity and the stress of that. So by dealing with
Speaker 1: these things upstream, and by interacting with organizations already have
Speaker 1: transition programs and in incorporating this into those programs, will
Speaker 1: be able to empower veterans to just better understand their health.
Speaker 1: Very few people are going to go out and just
Speaker 1: be like, you know what, I need some transition assistance
Speaker 1: with respect to my mental like. Um, if they're going
Speaker 1: to do that, they're going to go to a therapist,
Speaker 1: and they should go to a therapist. Like that's a
Speaker 1: much more focused and individual kind of process, and particularly
Speaker 1: one that deals with veterans issues as a specialty in
Speaker 1: their practice. However, Um, what they will do when their
Speaker 1: program says, hey, this is part of our curriculum. Um,
Speaker 1: you're going to read a chapter a week, we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about it, you're gonna journal, we're gonna have
Speaker 1: some group discussions. No big deal, you know, an hour
Speaker 1: a week. Yeah, of course they're going to read it.
Speaker 1: Of course they're going to incorporate it, and they're going
Speaker 1: to do the thing. And ultimately that's what we need them.
Speaker 1: We needed but do the thing, go through this process,
Speaker 1: think about it, be um, reflective about how their military
Speaker 1: service has affected them and how um they can process
Speaker 1: the things that were difficult for them about their service
Speaker 1: and take the things about their service that can make
Speaker 1: them really incredible workers and and spouses and parents, um
Speaker 1: and bring those into their life consciously, not just defaulting
Speaker 1: to what's worked in the military, but actually bringing those
Speaker 1: things consciously into their day to day lives. A lot
Speaker 1: of what you're saying is resonating with me, just as
Speaker 1: someone who's interviewed people in your position. You know Jack
Speaker 1: for example, and he's very honest and open in his books.
Speaker 1: I don't think he would mind me bringing this up.
Speaker 1: But even at the beginning of his book, he actually
Speaker 1: says that he goes out for lunch with another former
Speaker 1: Green be a, Jim West, and he's telling him his story,
Speaker 1: and Jim says to him, do you have some issues
Speaker 1: of PTSD that you just haven't opened up? And I
Speaker 1: think to Jackie's like, well, I've never, you know, thought
Speaker 1: about killing myself or anything like that. I don't have
Speaker 1: these issues. But as you said, that's like crisis mode.
Speaker 1: And Jack has said to me before in private conversation
Speaker 1: that there were times he jumped heavily into work where
Speaker 1: it was like, I need to write a new book,
Speaker 1: I need to write all these articles. And he'll say
Speaker 1: that that was kind of him covering up some of
Speaker 1: these issues that he didn't sort out. And I think that,
Speaker 1: as you're saying PTSD or post traumatic stress, it's it's
Speaker 1: not automatically into suicidal thoughts. That's at the worst case scenario. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's funny. My my wife will be like, you're turning
Speaker 1: on your army voice sometimes when when my kids are
Speaker 1: overwhelming me and I start like I like get a
Speaker 1: face and start shouting in a way that would be
Speaker 1: totally normal on an O d A or on a mission,
Speaker 1: and like not even in a stressful situation, just like
Speaker 1: in the moment, because that's that's how we talk and
Speaker 1: that's how we're operating in the moment. Right, Um, do
Speaker 1: you scare the hell out of your kids? Yeah, totally,
Speaker 1: it's uh. And so there's some repair that I have
Speaker 1: to do afterwards in those kind of circumstances, you know,
Speaker 1: and they're they're young kids and and um, they don't
Speaker 1: need that. And h more to the point, like that's
Speaker 1: not healthy behavior for me, and it's not actually serving
Speaker 1: my interest, it's not actually getting me to where I
Speaker 1: want to go. I mean, even when I was in
Speaker 1: business school, UM, we'd be talking about these ideas and
Speaker 1: I'd be like halfway down the like action path, like
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about how to execute on this, and
Speaker 1: it's like we haven't even really considered all of the
Speaker 1: different options and like dealt with all these people's ideas,
Speaker 1: and it would be really frustrating for me. And and
Speaker 1: that sort of expression of um military action bias and
Speaker 1: and like uh dismissal of what I thought were stupid
Speaker 1: ideas in the moment, and and just just just like
Speaker 1: really aggressive posture with basically everybody around me. It took
Speaker 1: me a long time to kind of back off and
Speaker 1: and um unpack for for for lack of a better word,
Speaker 1: and a lot of those things we're sort of expressions
Speaker 1: of UM. And you know, those particular examples I wouldn't
Speaker 1: necessarily call those PTSD UM, but what we're definitely context driven. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say it logically makes sense because in
Speaker 1: the capacity that you were in the military, you have
Speaker 1: to make split, split second decisions, I mean, prior to
Speaker 1: bring you on. We just had Vicky Behenna on which
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with their son, Michael Behenna,
Speaker 1: who was just pardoned by President Trump, where he, you know,
Speaker 1: what he says, was in self defense, ended up killing
Speaker 1: this known terrorists that he detained and wasn't supposed to.
Speaker 1: It wasn't supposed to go down that way. And I
Speaker 1: think the thing that people understand, and when we had
Speaker 1: him on years back with Jack, Jack was saying, you know,
Speaker 1: these decisions in the military, remember him saying, aren't made
Speaker 1: from the starship enterprise like, these are split second decisions
Speaker 1: and you have to understand that in the heat of combat,
Speaker 1: whether this person is guilty or not. And and for you,
Speaker 1: I'm sure transitioning to the business world, these are decisions
Speaker 1: that you can make within weeks or within months. And
Speaker 1: for you, you you just want to execute. And I get
Speaker 1: why that would be in contact ex to where you've
Speaker 1: been in your life. Yeah, for sure. Um, there are
Speaker 1: so so, so so much of what I talk about
Speaker 1: in the book. UM And by the way, I reference
Speaker 1: PTSD very very rarely. It's not up to me to
Speaker 1: decide who has and who who does not have PTSD. Right, Ultimately,
Speaker 1: they can UM work with a professional to to make
Speaker 1: that decision. However, what I do know is that the
Speaker 1: military does a very good job of conditioning people to
Speaker 1: a certain set of behaviors in a certain context. And
Speaker 1: when you leave that context, everything changes, and um, that's
Speaker 1: very difficult for a brain to manage. The brain uses
Speaker 1: something like twenty of the energy of the energy that
Speaker 1: our body produces. Right, It's an enormous amount of energy
Speaker 1: and a and a disproportionate amount of energy relative to
Speaker 1: every other part of our body. Why that's matters is
Speaker 1: because our brain has to change itself. It has to
Speaker 1: be plastic, it has to structure itself according to familiar
Speaker 1: stimuli so that doesn't waste more energy. It's so that
Speaker 1: it can be more efficient in making those decisions. Um.
Speaker 1: After back proning, there's something called a mile in sheath
Speaker 1: that drastically improves the connectivity between different neurons. UM and
Speaker 1: those structures get built in according to the stimula around you. Well,
Speaker 1: when you change that context, all of those structures are
Speaker 1: built according to assumptions and fundamental context that no longer
Speaker 1: are there, and so um, A lot of veterans will
Speaker 1: talk about that. For the year after they separated they
Speaker 1: just slept a lot. Everything was exhausting. It was exhausting
Speaker 1: interacting with people, Like, yeah, you're using probably twice the
Speaker 1: energy that you would have normally used with your brain,
Speaker 1: just trying to deal with day to day life, just
Speaker 1: interacting with people. Of Course you're more tired. Of course,
Speaker 1: it's more stressful. Of course it's more difficult. And then
Speaker 1: what plays into this neuroplashticity of the brand that you
Speaker 1: talk about in the book is then veterans jump into
Speaker 1: alcohol or other drugs, which make things even worse. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: when you're drinking or or using other drugs. And and
Speaker 1: by the way, it's not just chemicals. There are lots
Speaker 1: of ways to have this kind of escapist behavior, in
Speaker 1: this kind of numbing behavior, video games, video games, sex,
Speaker 1: even working out in some cases, like working yourself to
Speaker 1: an exhaustion and to a to a sort of depleted
Speaker 1: numb state. Uh. That that's another way that you can
Speaker 1: numb yourself. And when you're going through these sorts of things, um,
Speaker 1: and not allowing time for reflection and really sleep, Um,
Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to process through this
Speaker 1: and you're just going to be stuck. Um. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: it's it's um PTSD. However, is a special case, and
Speaker 1: I want to address it just for a minute, because
Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to be are going
Speaker 1: to be thinking about when they're thinking of veteran mental
Speaker 1: health and and for good reason. Right. Um, So here's
Speaker 1: a couple of facts that I'm gonna line up together
Speaker 1: to to give you an idea of the situation we're
Speaker 1: going through. Right, Um, people from lower socio economic backgrounds,
Speaker 1: not necessarily low, just lower, right think middle class, lower
Speaker 1: middle class and im poor people are disproportionately likely to
Speaker 1: experience trauma in their youth, some kind of trauma either
Speaker 1: the parents splitting up, or there's abuse, or you know,
Speaker 1: they lost a caregiver from for for one reason or another. Um,
Speaker 1: people have just rougher childhoods. They have a lot more
Speaker 1: sort of intense experiences. That's there's tons of evidence to
Speaker 1: that out there in the world. Right. Additionally, the all
Speaker 1: volunteer Army since the eighties disproportionately pulls from those same communities.
Speaker 1: Thank you follow me, Because there's not a draft, there's
Speaker 1: large opportunities, there's college opportunities, lots of opportunity for people
Speaker 1: for for like upward economic mobility, right, good job training,
Speaker 1: lots of great reasons for for those communities to come
Speaker 1: into the military into an all volunteer army. It's not
Speaker 1: true that it's dispersed across all strata in the country.
Speaker 1: It disproportionately pulls from these communities, right. We also know
Speaker 1: that UH, people who serve in the military with existing
Speaker 1: traumatic backgrounds are much much more likely several factors UH
Speaker 1: to experience PTSD from their military service. So what that
Speaker 1: means is that since the all volunteer Army, the incidence
Speaker 1: of PTSD has been higher. Why proportionally? I mean, just
Speaker 1: looking it sort of the data that I lined out
Speaker 1: it it's because we're pulling from a community that is
Speaker 1: disproportionately more likely to have PTSD because of trauma that
Speaker 1: they're disproportionately more likely to have. That makes sense that
Speaker 1: I've never heard that expressed, Right, Like, all of these
Speaker 1: things together kind of lead up to well, of course
Speaker 1: we are because one, people are coming into the military
Speaker 1: with more trauma. Then they're experiencing resonant experiences in the
Speaker 1: military that helped make them relive that trauma. Those get
Speaker 1: more deeply embedded than when they transition out. They have
Speaker 1: more baggage to deal with, and this isn't a life sentence, right.
Speaker 1: This is something that they can absolutely deal with. It's
Speaker 1: something that they could deal with earlier in in UH,
Speaker 1: in the military, it's something that they could deal with
Speaker 1: UM at the point of separation. But it's something that
Speaker 1: they're going to have to deal with if they want
Speaker 1: to grow as people and grow out of those kinds
Speaker 1: of traumas. So the whole thing about PTSD is that, UM,
Speaker 1: we should normalize it because in many ways, it's probably
Speaker 1: pretty normal. Doesn't require combat, it doesn't require UM some
Speaker 1: some kind of like gunfight experience to embed a really
Speaker 1: traumatic experience that then gets relived anytime you have kind
Speaker 1: of a resonant experience. UM. I am myself and am
Speaker 1: guilty of this. I've criticized people who had really intense
Speaker 1: emotional experiences for saying they were diagnosed with PTSD and like,
Speaker 1: you didn't nearly die, you didn't UM go through combat,
Speaker 1: you didn't you know, nobody was trying to blow you up.
Speaker 1: I've heard that a lot, and UH that was really
Speaker 1: unfortunate and really UM insensitive of me because these are
Speaker 1: people that did experience death. They were volunteers for Katrina
Speaker 1: helping out in the shelters in Houston, and like people
Speaker 1: were coming in injured and sometimes dying in those shelters,
Speaker 1: and that's a really intense thing to go through. Excuse me,
Speaker 1: it wasn't Katrina. It was it was the flooding down
Speaker 1: in Texas. Right, Well, anyway, it doesn't it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: exactly what the context was people. The point is in
Speaker 1: New York during experience PTSD. Yeah, totally, I mean, it's it.
Speaker 1: It's one of those significant emotional events, and particularly ones
Speaker 1: that deal with death and dying or like severe injury
Speaker 1: or moral injury. UM, that's more likely to turn into it, right,
Speaker 1: And so yeah, we we should totally normalize PTSD as
Speaker 1: a thing. As a UM you know, you could probably
Speaker 1: think of it as something like your brain is doing
Speaker 1: what it's supposed to do, but it's stuck in a
Speaker 1: loop and you need some help to get out of
Speaker 1: that loop and to to um like break the pattern
Speaker 1: that makes the triggers overload your senses. Like I've I've oh,
Speaker 1: here's here's one. UM. I've had experiences where I've been
Speaker 1: driving where I'm on the highway and I kind of
Speaker 1: go back into being in a rack, and I'm I'm
Speaker 1: in a turret. I'm just like kind of imagining all
Speaker 1: of those experiences right before. Um, like just just being
Speaker 1: in um that context and like feeling both aggressive and afraid,
Speaker 1: you know, excited and vigilant, like every time you'd go
Speaker 1: out on a on a drive because everybody's getting blown
Speaker 1: up or whatever. Then I'm driving down the highway in Austin,
Speaker 1: and I realized at some point that like I didn't
Speaker 1: remember what was happening for the past two or three
Speaker 1: minutes other WHOA, I was worlds away. And it's not
Speaker 1: like I was, you know, driving like combat driving in
Speaker 1: Iraq or like you know, making machine gunning like any
Speaker 1: of the ridiculous Hollywood bullshit that you see for an
Speaker 1: expression of PTSD. But I was totally just not there,
Speaker 1: um And and that was an expression of of PTSD.
Speaker 1: It was that whole like context and um. You know,
Speaker 1: it was just enough my hands on the steering wheel,
Speaker 1: feeling like a spade grip um driving down the road
Speaker 1: like mildly um thick traffic in the heat of the day,
Speaker 1: like all of that heat kind of coming on me
Speaker 1: in waves. It was enough to to remind my brain
Speaker 1: that this was an experience where I needed to be
Speaker 1: really vigilant and really pay attention, and I I just
Speaker 1: wasn't there for a few minutes. So in separating from service,
Speaker 1: you go into chapter by chapter basically the healthy waves
Speaker 1: to deal with trauma, healthy ways to get into a
Speaker 1: new career and and make that transition for military life.
Speaker 1: Did you personally take any of those unhealthy routes w
Speaker 1: whether it be alcohol or drugs, prior to going through
Speaker 1: it the right way? Oh? Yeah, for sure. So, especially
Speaker 1: while it was in the military, I was a very
Speaker 1: heavy drinker. Like I don't drink alcohol now, I haven't
Speaker 1: for about, uh for a little over three years. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't either. People break my balls constantly over it,
Speaker 1: but I don't have like an issue or anything. I
Speaker 1: just wasn't into it anymore. Yeah, for me, it was
Speaker 1: really more about, Um, I just it's it's not doing
Speaker 1: anything for me. And every time that I think that
Speaker 1: I want to drink, I'm like, well, how do I
Speaker 1: want to feel tomorrow in the day after that? And
Speaker 1: who am I going to interact with? Like I may
Speaker 1: not have the same I will get depression the next day.
Speaker 1: Even from a beer, and I'm like, this isn't for
Speaker 1: me anymore. So um, and I'll tell people like I
Speaker 1: I met my quota in the army, and I probably
Speaker 1: met your quota too. I met several people's like lifetime
Speaker 1: quotas with my drinking while it was in the in
Speaker 1: the army, So that was definitely one that I did.
Speaker 1: I definitely isolated myself a lot. I definitely um, would
Speaker 1: um not do the kinds of things. Wait right when
Speaker 1: I separated, I would continue to exercise like I was
Speaker 1: training for combat, and I mean it just wasn't really
Speaker 1: serving me. I exacerbated some injuries and I definitely um,
Speaker 1: I just didn't help myself out. And the sleep thing
Speaker 1: was a really big issue. I was, um, not following
Speaker 1: sleep hygiene. So so between drinking and not following sleep hygiene,
Speaker 1: not eating well And what does that mean, by the way,
Speaker 1: we're sleeping too little or too much or I was
Speaker 1: sleeping too little in the quality of the sleep that
Speaker 1: I was getting was very low because because of the
Speaker 1: light that was around me, because of how I was
Speaker 1: stimulating myself right before I went to bed, you know,
Speaker 1: watching too much, uh, spending too much time in front
Speaker 1: of a screen, like watching um, I mean, it doesn't
Speaker 1: even matter what I was watching was and I like
Speaker 1: watching sitcoms or whatever, and which is something all of
Speaker 1: us could relate to, whether yeah totally or not. The
Speaker 1: at the time, there was a lot of research going
Speaker 1: into blue light and how it was stimulates your brain
Speaker 1: and prevents you from falling into really deep sleep and
Speaker 1: and UM, when I figured that out, I stopped using
Speaker 1: screens like about an hour before i'd go to bed,
Speaker 1: or if I did use any screen, I'd use a
Speaker 1: blue light filter on it so that it wasn't stimulating
Speaker 1: me the same way. And that really changed the way,
Speaker 1: really changed the quality of my sleep. I quit taking
Speaker 1: uh any kinds of drugs to fall asleep, you know,
Speaker 1: like Bena drill. A lot of people would do that
Speaker 1: to to kind of make themselves drowsy, and it really
Speaker 1: affects the quality of your sleep. You won't have nearly
Speaker 1: as good run cycles. When I was researching sleep and
Speaker 1: how the brain functions and how you process through UM,
Speaker 1: process through emotions and process through psychological events, sleep is
Speaker 1: the one like common theme you really need it in
Speaker 1: order to to UM allow your brain to to restructure
Speaker 1: itself into deal with those those emotions in those conditions,
Speaker 1: and so um, really just taking like a handful of
Speaker 1: steps to help your body function the way that it's
Speaker 1: supposed to and to deal with those emotions is probably
Speaker 1: the most important thing you can do for your mental health. Like,
Speaker 1: and it's so simple, right, Like treat yourself like you
Speaker 1: have the flu, lots of fluids, uh, lots of sleep,
Speaker 1: um eat well, you know, like even whenever you're you're
Speaker 1: you have the flu, you you try to um lean
Speaker 1: towards healthier and simpler foods, right um. And then journaling
Speaker 1: and um, what journaling looks like is gonna be a
Speaker 1: little bit different for for every person, but I try
Speaker 1: to include a lot of prompts in the books so
Speaker 1: that you have like a starting off point you can
Speaker 1: just give a little bit of structure to your thoughts
Speaker 1: and you can can try and process them through. And
Speaker 1: you'll find that as you sleep, um, like you'll have
Speaker 1: some really wild dreams and then when you wake up
Speaker 1: things feel just a little bit different, and that can
Speaker 1: be a really powerful tool to too growing into getting
Speaker 1: through this whole transition process. I think that if if
Speaker 1: everyone were to follow just those few things in the
Speaker 1: first few months, after separation. It would do enormous good
Speaker 1: with respect to reducing veterans suicides and the number of
Speaker 1: veterans they get into crisis. Yeah. Just from my own
Speaker 1: personal experience, when you're going through anything tough in life,
Speaker 1: the feeling that I think all of us have, and
Speaker 1: it's the worst feeling, is that this feeling is gonna
Speaker 1: last forever. And that's what leads people to doing something
Speaker 1: so drastic, is taking their own life. And I think
Speaker 1: it's an important that people realize that through these steps,
Speaker 1: you're not going to feel like this forever. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And and in fact, you can make yourself feel a
Speaker 1: lot lot better. Um, the simple act of writing, I
Speaker 1: feel like shit, and this feels like it's going to
Speaker 1: last forever. Um, I can't imagine not feeling like this.
Speaker 1: What could feeling differently feel like? What would I rather
Speaker 1: feel like? I'm in writing every one of those words.
Speaker 1: And by the way, physically writing it, not not on
Speaker 1: a screen, not on a keyboard, but pen and paper
Speaker 1: in hand. Um, that that alone will do a lot
Speaker 1: to reduce the intensity and to start making you think
Speaker 1: in different ways and um, directing your thoughts in creating
Speaker 1: different patterns for you because you'll often look back on
Speaker 1: it a week later in some circumstances and say it,
Speaker 1: I don't feel that way right now. Yeah, And um, actually,
Speaker 1: I very very rarely will revisit uh entries that I've
Speaker 1: made in my journal, just the act of writing them
Speaker 1: out and getting two different ideas. Um, well, we'll do
Speaker 1: a lot for me. Here's here's one that's really weird
Speaker 1: and it's kind of been now, but it's kind of
Speaker 1: serious too. I realized, Um, I traveled a lot for work,
Speaker 1: and UM, I realized a couple of years ago that
Speaker 1: every time I traveled, I had this like deep seated
Speaker 1: anxiety for my relationship with my wife, and it was
Speaker 1: it was really difficult for me to overcome this and
Speaker 1: and like not feel lonely and anxious and kind of
Speaker 1: stressed and like over eat or want to go out
Speaker 1: and drink, or or find something to do that's exciting
Speaker 1: to to distract myself, you know, all of which are
Speaker 1: are pretty common things for people to do whenever they're traveling.
Speaker 1: But I was like, this is this feels more intense
Speaker 1: than it should. Like why am I feeling this? And
Speaker 1: why do I feel hours after I've left my wife
Speaker 1: for a couple of days on a business trip that
Speaker 1: I need to check in with her and see what's
Speaker 1: going on with her and and make sure everything's okay.
Speaker 1: And I realized that in the eight years that I
Speaker 1: was serving UM, I almost never went on a trip,
Speaker 1: either a deployment or a or a training trip and
Speaker 1: didn't lose a relationship because I was very rarely at
Speaker 1: home at Fort Campbell when I was and I meet
Speaker 1: a woman that had wanted date, we'd go on a
Speaker 1: few dates, and then I would leave for a month,
Speaker 1: and like, it's hard to keep something up and it's
Speaker 1: already keep a relationship. And I went through a lot
Speaker 1: of relationships like that where it's like, all right, well
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be gone for three months and they're like yet,
Speaker 1: no deal, you know, And and that's fine, Like I'm
Speaker 1: that is a rational choice on their behalf. But it
Speaker 1: made for a really painful and difficult situation for me
Speaker 1: where you probably feel unworthy. Yeah, I was experiencing a
Speaker 1: lot of rejection, and more to the point, every time
Speaker 1: I was getting ready to go on on one of
Speaker 1: these trips, I started feeling anxious that I was going
Speaker 1: to to lose whatever relationship I was, and a lot
Speaker 1: of times I became a self fulfilling prophecy. So then
Speaker 1: even after I was married, had a strong, stable relationship,
Speaker 1: had spent a lot of time building, you know, a
Speaker 1: really good family life, that feeling was still persistent. And
Speaker 1: it took me just sitting down and writing like what
Speaker 1: the hell am I feeling? What is going on with
Speaker 1: my mind? What is going on with my brain? Um?
Speaker 1: Why am I feeling? And why? And like as I
Speaker 1: kind of broke down each later, what am I feeling?
Speaker 1: I'm feeling anxious and lonely? Um, Okay, you're alone, so
Speaker 1: lonely is probably normal, But why are you feeling anxious
Speaker 1: about that? Like what's the anxiety? Like, well, I feel
Speaker 1: like I feel like I'm going to lose my wife.
Speaker 1: Why do you feel like you're gonna lose your wife?
Speaker 1: And like as I broke down and answered each of
Speaker 1: those questions like this is what I feel? Why do
Speaker 1: I feel that? Well because of this? Is that true?
Speaker 1: I don't know? Is it true? And and you're exploring
Speaker 1: deeper and you're making what is unconscious conscious until you
Speaker 1: get to some kind of absurdity, right like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: afraid my wife is going to leave me because I'm
Speaker 1: away from home, Well, why would she leave you for? Well,
Speaker 1: in the past, you know, I've been gone for six
Speaker 1: months or or you know, at least several weeks, and
Speaker 1: and there was never any time that I was going
Speaker 1: to stop on the horizon. That's not true anymore. You've
Speaker 1: gone for like three or four days at a time,
Speaker 1: and it's not even necessarily consistent. And it's not somebody
Speaker 1: that can just bail on me. It's my wife. Like
Speaker 1: we've got a mortgage together, kids are born together. Like
Speaker 1: all these different conditions that were true before when I
Speaker 1: was losing these relationships are no longer true when I'm
Speaker 1: in in this context. And it was just like, oh shit,
Speaker 1: I can relax. I never had it again. Wow, that
Speaker 1: anxiety never happened again. I still feel lonely sometimes I
Speaker 1: still feel a little bit anxious because, um, well, leaving
Speaker 1: my wife at home with three small children is hard.
Speaker 1: That doesn't always feel great. But the like anxiety I
Speaker 1: have about the stability of the relationship and like the
Speaker 1: intensity that I had just went away. Well, what I
Speaker 1: was gonna say is this is why you know in
Speaker 1: the book you talk about who it's beneficial to talk
Speaker 1: to about certain things, which is not beneficial to talk to.
Speaker 1: And also keeping a journal. This all plays very much
Speaker 1: into that. I think of the fact that you were
Speaker 1: able to map out these ideas because if you probably
Speaker 1: would have called your wife freaking out, that's not the
Speaker 1: you're treating someone. That's not the right way to go
Speaker 1: about things. I think to dump all this emotional energy
Speaker 1: onto your partner when it's not anything they did wrong.
Speaker 1: This is really all on your head now. And um.
Speaker 1: We we did have some conversations, and it was a lot.
Speaker 1: By this point. It was like, look, I'm feeling these
Speaker 1: things that I'm not sure exactly why, and um, I
Speaker 1: think I just need to work it out and journal it.
Speaker 1: Um I realized now that I had had you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, it never manifested like aggressively. It was just
Speaker 1: I'd go on this trip and I call her and
Speaker 1: be like, man, I really miss you, and um, I
Speaker 1: feel funny and and I don't know if I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be able to sleep. I just feel aunty and I
Speaker 1: need to go out or something. And and it was
Speaker 1: just this like sort of unrest and and by the way,
Speaker 1: it takes a lot to open up and even say
Speaker 1: that because your people would perceive you as this tough
Speaker 1: guy who's army green beret, and this is you being
Speaker 1: open and being vulnerable. I'm really glad that you said that,
Speaker 1: let's put a put in that for just a second, um,
Speaker 1: so I can finish this thing. It took me saying
Speaker 1: you know what, this is a thing that I've realized
Speaker 1: now that I have felt many times before. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: work on this. This is gonna be my focus for
Speaker 1: the next couple of hours. And that and I I
Speaker 1: started writing out and I started going through kind of
Speaker 1: some of the exercises that I talked about in the book,
Speaker 1: and and then it just went away and it was
Speaker 1: just not a big deal anymore. Um. But you're talking
Speaker 1: about vulnerability, and this is something that I talked about
Speaker 1: in the book. Um. We talk about the strong silent type.
Speaker 1: We talk about, uh, what strength looks like, right, and
Speaker 1: that persona the strong silent type. Many times those people,
Speaker 1: UM cannot handle other people's emotions. You know, if if
Speaker 1: there's a child crying, or if there's someone screaming, or
Speaker 1: if there's a one that's feeling real emotional and she's crying,
Speaker 1: or anybody expressing really intense emotion. Uh, they don't want
Speaker 1: to be around them. They're going to remove themselves, or
Speaker 1: they'll criticize, or they'll they'll put it down, Like what
Speaker 1: is it about that that's making them uncomfortable and make
Speaker 1: it unbearable for them? That doesn't speak strength to me.
Speaker 1: To me, strength is being able to endure some kind
Speaker 1: of discomfort, some kind of adversity. Right, to go back
Speaker 1: to the gym um situation, the gym analogy. Um, somebody
Speaker 1: that can consistently lift, await and carry it and deal
Speaker 1: with it and deal with that discomfort. Um, that's someone
Speaker 1: that you would think of is being strong. Right. If
Speaker 1: you can be vulnerable and you can endure um, the
Speaker 1: sort of discomfort and the intensity of those emotions. Um,
Speaker 1: that's real strength. Right. Not not avoiding lifting because you
Speaker 1: don't need it, because you feel like you're strong enough
Speaker 1: and don't need to spend any time growing in that way.
Speaker 1: But somebody that actually engages it, is willing to endure
Speaker 1: some discomfort in order to grow and in order to
Speaker 1: serve the relationships and the life that they truly value. Yeah,
Speaker 1: one seems to be real strength and the other is
Speaker 1: like the perception of strength and and how you're being
Speaker 1: perceived by others. Yeah, it's like it's like somebody saying, um,
Speaker 1: I don't need to go to the gym because I'm
Speaker 1: plenty strong, and so they never go to the gym
Speaker 1: and avoid any situation where they're going to have to
Speaker 1: exert strength. Right, It's like that's what so getting into
Speaker 1: the book itself of you know what you're doing now? Well,
Speaker 1: first I'm wondering, actually, at what point did you say
Speaker 1: that you wanted to put these thoughts on paper and
Speaker 1: put a book out and help others, Because what I
Speaker 1: was gonna say is that you've done an incredible job transition,
Speaker 1: I think, regardless of any pitfalls that you went through
Speaker 1: as someone who's experienced the trauma that you've expressed just
Speaker 1: speaking with me in this past few minutes to now
Speaker 1: working in the tech sector. How how did you make
Speaker 1: that transition possible? And then also at what point did
Speaker 1: you say I want to help others make that transition possible? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there was no real big bang moment um. I
Speaker 1: think going to school was a really important part of
Speaker 1: my transition personally. Um, remember whinning the army is with
Speaker 1: with an undergrad degree? Uh? And I enlisted because that
Speaker 1: got me straight into Special Forces, and um, never became
Speaker 1: an officer after that. By the by the time it
Speaker 1: might have made sense for me to become an officer,
Speaker 1: I was really too old to have a competitive career
Speaker 1: and it just didn't make sense. Uh. But having that
Speaker 1: university environment, that transition environment, was really important to me
Speaker 1: to make mistakes around people that we're going to look
Speaker 1: out for me. Uh. I don't know why it occurred
Speaker 1: to me to tell the woman that sat next to
Speaker 1: me in business school, like, Hey, I have no doubt
Speaker 1: whatsoever that I'm going to say and do some stupid things.
Speaker 1: So can you do me a solid and just like
Speaker 1: keep me from doing it too big? You know, there
Speaker 1: were a couple of times when I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: about to tell them that they're stupid? Is that a
Speaker 1: bad idea? Yeah, that's a bad idea of like, but
Speaker 1: they're stupid. She's like, yeah, but you just can't tell
Speaker 1: them like that. Um. You know, it's kind of an
Speaker 1: extreme example, but there were a lot of times when
Speaker 1: when she kind of helped me better navigate all of
Speaker 1: this this kind of stuff. Um, and I'm digressing. So
Speaker 1: so that environment was really important to me to to
Speaker 1: UM deal with these things. Going to therapy was absolutely important.
Speaker 1: Quacking drinking. Uh. When I finally stopped drinking altogether, Like,
Speaker 1: it totally changed my life with respect to my growth
Speaker 1: and with respect to what I was able to endure
Speaker 1: and with which respect to UM, what I was able
Speaker 1: to just deal with in the way that I was
Speaker 1: able to think, Like, it's not just in dealing in
Speaker 1: enduring discomfort. UM, we we tend to think of like
Speaker 1: avoiding painful things as the goal. It changed my life
Speaker 1: and that I was able to see lots of things
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise. UM. One
Speaker 1: of the analogies that I used in the book is
Speaker 1: is it's if we're paddling down a creek or a river,
Speaker 1: you know, with lots of rapids around us, and I'm
Speaker 1: paddling and I'm like, Wow, look at the clouds in
Speaker 1: the rainbow over those cliffs over there. Isn't that beautiful?
Speaker 1: What a powerful moment. We're sitting here, you know, paddling
Speaker 1: and whoever, My counterpoint is, it's like, what of hell
Speaker 1: are you doing? We're about to die. Why aren't you paddling?
Speaker 1: We're going to die? There's all these rocks here. Shut
Speaker 1: up with your stupid rainbow. I don't I have no
Speaker 1: idea what you're talking about. Like you know, and I
Speaker 1: paddle a couple of different directions and like it's really beautiful.
Speaker 1: You'll just have to trust me from them, right, Like
Speaker 1: I came to the point where I could see that.
Speaker 1: And of course there are other things that I'm struggling with.
Speaker 1: There are other ways that I'm growing. But this whole
Speaker 1: idea of awakening, like you differentiate, integrate, and you awaken.
Speaker 1: Those are um sort of steps that I go through
Speaker 1: in my book. But this awakening point is really important
Speaker 1: because it's something that you gain from going through this process.
Speaker 1: It's it's additional space to think. It's it's it's additional
Speaker 1: space to appreciate the things that matter most you in
Speaker 1: life in the moment that you're experiencing them. It's not
Speaker 1: just oh, I'm not feeling as much discomfort and I
Speaker 1: can endure more. It's that, um, I enjoy life more.
Speaker 1: I get to experience more. It's a richer experience. It's
Speaker 1: it's like suddenly I can see more colors in in
Speaker 1: lots of different places in my life. It's like suddenly,
Speaker 1: I can um take a moment and get better outcomes
Speaker 1: because someone asked me a question and for a moment,
Speaker 1: I think it's aggressive. I'm like, well, hold on a second,
Speaker 1: why are you like I have an answer for you.
Speaker 1: I'd like to deal with this, But why are you
Speaker 1: asking that? I'm not sure that that's the right question
Speaker 1: you should be asking. So let me understand what outcome
Speaker 1: you're trying to get to and and let me help
Speaker 1: you get to an answer that's going to to create
Speaker 1: that outcome for you, right, and being able to ask
Speaker 1: those kind of questions and respond in that kind of
Speaker 1: thoughtful and engaged way instead of just spitting off whatever
Speaker 1: happens to occur to me in the moment whenever someone
Speaker 1: asked that question. And that's a that's a real strength
Speaker 1: that's going to improve outcomes. And so um, yeah, going
Speaker 1: through that process of of um first having a safe
Speaker 1: space to transition, and second being conscious about the way
Speaker 1: that you go through all of this process. I think
Speaker 1: those are those are really the most important things. And
Speaker 1: really be kind with yourself. I tell anybody when they
Speaker 1: go into therapy that they should expect no less than
Speaker 1: a year of consistent interaction with a mental health care
Speaker 1: provider before they really feel very different. Um, because it
Speaker 1: takes time. You have to build habits, you have to
Speaker 1: build trust, get to a point where you feel safe
Speaker 1: being being vulnerable in front of this person. It's also
Speaker 1: not a great idea to be vulnerable with someone you
Speaker 1: don't actually feel psychological safety with, like, even if nothing
Speaker 1: happens because of that, just that sheer exposure can be traumatic. Um,
Speaker 1: And they should expect up to four or five years
Speaker 1: before they really feel like optimal, like things are really
Speaker 1: working very well and they're achieving a lot of the
Speaker 1: kinds of outcomes, relationship outcomes and growth outcomes that they expected.
Speaker 1: I used to think that before I joined the military,
Speaker 1: that um, the two years that it took to take
Speaker 1: a green breat like that made sense. But then people
Speaker 1: were like, well, it takes another like maybe four or
Speaker 1: five years before you are really a competent operator. And
Speaker 1: looking back, oh no, that was absolutely true, that was
Speaker 1: unquestionably true. You know. Um, yeah, I think I think
Speaker 1: four years before you're a competent operator after finishing the
Speaker 1: Q course sounds like about the round amount of time.
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't that also be the case after the transition, right,
Speaker 1: you're you're not going to walk out of the military
Speaker 1: and walk into a fortune executive leadership role. Of course,
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work like that. Um that have and
Speaker 1: extremely rarely what could happen is you get out and
Speaker 1: you spend a year dealing with things, and then you
Speaker 1: spend a few more years dealing with other things, and
Speaker 1: you get to a point in your transition where you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: now I get all of this stuff, and I understand
Speaker 1: a lot more, and I stand a lot of the context.
Speaker 1: And I couldn't have done this just by like jumping
Speaker 1: in day one, right. That transition process takes a lot
Speaker 1: of time, and in the book, the recommended path is
Speaker 1: to to spend a week on each chapter. Like, it's
Speaker 1: not like you're going to be transitioned after that. That
Speaker 1: would be ridiculous that I could not say that to
Speaker 1: someone and not be laughed out of the room. Really, uh,
Speaker 1: But what it will do is give you the tools
Speaker 1: to go through this iterative process many times over the
Speaker 1: next three or four years, to develop some language to
Speaker 1: talk about what's happening to you, to give you some
Speaker 1: tools to really function as you're going through your transition
Speaker 1: without everything turning into a crisis. And then, as for
Speaker 1: the second part of my question, really, at what point
Speaker 1: did you say I want to get this down and
Speaker 1: help others take that same for end, Thanks for bringing
Speaker 1: that back around. UM. I I started journaling some and uh,
Speaker 1: there were some really interesting things that I learned about
Speaker 1: the brain. I talked with a number of my business
Speaker 1: school peers about different ideas that I had for a
Speaker 1: side project because I was bored out of my mind
Speaker 1: of my job, and this one was one that I
Speaker 1: just sort of kept coming back to without really having
Speaker 1: a way to do it structurally or like building a
Speaker 1: company or whatever. And so I started with with just blogging,
Speaker 1: and I wrote an article about quitting drinking UM and
Speaker 1: published on a blog and it it got uh like
Speaker 1: a couple of thousand shares in like three days or something.
Speaker 1: UM so lots and lots of views, like tens of
Speaker 1: thousands of views and a couple of thousands shares. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well this resonated with some people. Let me think about
Speaker 1: some other UM topics that I can talk about and
Speaker 1: and that might resonate. Started building a community of people
Speaker 1: that were reading my content. UM not a massive community,
Speaker 1: but several hundred on a variety of different channels, and
Speaker 1: I push out stuff and and say, what do you
Speaker 1: think of this? Is this resonating with you? Is it
Speaker 1: is a garbage uh? And some of them were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is really I have no idea what you're getting.
Speaker 1: And so it's funny because you'll see sometimes I'll write
Speaker 1: as an aside and people are like, what the hell
Speaker 1: are you talking about? And I would actually quote them,
Speaker 1: probably during neuroscience stuff, right some of it. They're like
Speaker 1: like that, what what are you talking about? And I like, okay,
Speaker 1: hold on a second, just just stick with me for
Speaker 1: a minute, because I am getting to a point and
Speaker 1: I can I can totally nerd out and just ramble
Speaker 1: for a while. And sometimes it's useful for someone to say,
Speaker 1: get back to the point. Um. And so the whole
Speaker 1: goal for me in writing was to get an idea out,
Speaker 1: get some feedback on that idea, try and iterate on it, right, Like,
Speaker 1: instead of publishing the whole book, let me take sections
Speaker 1: of it and see what resonates and see what works,
Speaker 1: and see what language works, and see um and see
Speaker 1: what doesn't. Be able to cut that. And then once
Speaker 1: I had eight or nine different blog posts. Maybe there
Speaker 1: were a couple more than that. Uh. I realized, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: now I have all these different topics, how do I
Speaker 1: structure them in a way that makes sense? And even
Speaker 1: after that, it was like, okay, well, there's got to
Speaker 1: be this underlying thread that connects them too. So I
Speaker 1: went and did a little bit more research, read a
Speaker 1: handful more books, and read a bunch of articles until
Speaker 1: I came across this process of the differentiation and integration
Speaker 1: and awakening and and that kind of became the glue
Speaker 1: that tied it all together. Uh. And that's when I
Speaker 1: decided to collect these all together into a book and
Speaker 1: and landed on this sort of strategy to reach out
Speaker 1: to the organizations that are going to help veterans transition.
Speaker 1: Not that veterans shouldn't read this on their own, but
Speaker 1: even if that's the case, I would recommend that they
Speaker 1: get a close friend or their spouse to read through
Speaker 1: it with them, or a peri advisor. There are lots
Speaker 1: of peri advisors across the country that are trained people
Speaker 1: who have already gone through some kind of UM mental
Speaker 1: health growth and can can act as like peer coaches
Speaker 1: for them through this journey. UM They're going to get
Speaker 1: so much more value out of this if they read
Speaker 1: it with somebody else that's going to help them through
Speaker 1: this process, and if they just go through it on
Speaker 1: their own. Um. But I think that the greatest value
Speaker 1: will come from organizations coaching veterans through this process, because ultimately,
Speaker 1: when they're in a cohort of people going through the
Speaker 1: same things, it's going to resonate more deeply with them. UM,
Speaker 1: and it's it's just gonna stick a little bit better.
Speaker 1: That makes sense, And it's good to know that there
Speaker 1: are going to be organizations doing that with this book. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I've already got a handful of them, um that are
Speaker 1: really invested in it. UM A couple of universities and UM,
Speaker 1: a couple of military units, and a couple of veteran
Speaker 1: service organizations. And it's slow starting out, but uh, it's
Speaker 1: definitely resonating with the right people, and it's starting conversations
Speaker 1: using a common language. That's absolutely the first step. How
Speaker 1: can we talk about these things in a way that
Speaker 1: we all know what we're talking about? Right when we
Speaker 1: talk about veterans in crisis, like, we aren't making explicit
Speaker 1: that those are veterans in crisis very far downstream to
Speaker 1: where we could most effectively help them, right, And so
Speaker 1: of course the tools that we're throwing at it aren't
Speaker 1: really making a dent in it because we're not acknowledging
Speaker 1: that there's so much more than uh, just that moment
Speaker 1: in crisis that led up to that. And the book
Speaker 1: is giving specific solutions. I've heard a lot of guys
Speaker 1: on this program just did in specifics say that you know,
Speaker 1: we hear about the whole idea of doing twenty two
Speaker 1: push ups for twenty two veterans a day killing themselves. Well,
Speaker 1: everybody at this point is aware of the issue, and
Speaker 1: I've heard guys on the show say, it's not awareness
Speaker 1: that's the issue. We need some solutions to this. And
Speaker 1: that's what this book goes into. Yeah, and and um
Speaker 1: it's not going to be a one stop shop there.
Speaker 1: There is no solution mine included that will address this comprehensively,
Speaker 1: not a chance. UM. I decided to focus at the
Speaker 1: point of transition as one interaction point that already has
Speaker 1: a lot of people dealing with them at that at
Speaker 1: that transition point that it are already engaged, that we
Speaker 1: can make a difference, and we can address up stream.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be really really difficult to measure like what
Speaker 1: happens upstream against the outcome we want downstream. But um,
Speaker 1: we we can measure some points through throughout the process,
Speaker 1: and we can establish a shared language to talk about
Speaker 1: mental health and baseline mental health. UH. And my hope
Speaker 1: is that that contributes to the conversation throughout the whole process,
Speaker 1: all the way downstream to the point of crisis and
Speaker 1: and help us address, um, find where there are failure
Speaker 1: points or where there are veterans falling through the cracks. UH.
Speaker 1: I think that there are lots of organizations that are
Speaker 1: working hard and doing great work, frankly to to raise
Speaker 1: awareness us and to help veterans and crisis and to
Speaker 1: help veterans that in all different parts of the spectrum.
Speaker 1: This is the point that I chose, and that I
Speaker 1: think that I can make the biggest difference and contribute
Speaker 1: to the conversation and in the best way. Well said,
Speaker 1: and we've highlighted some of those organizations Gallant for you,
Speaker 1: we've had Karl Monger on UH. And Yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of organizations doing things and it's great to see
Speaker 1: you doing your part once again. The book is Separating
Speaker 1: from Service. The Mental Health Handbook for Transitioning Veterans was
Speaker 1: released earlier this year. Eric is on Twitter at Eric
Speaker 1: Underscore Burlson b U R L E. S O N. Honestly,
Speaker 1: this is like one of my favorite interviews I've done
Speaker 1: because mental health is such an important issue. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've had issues in my past, and I'm not a veteran.
Speaker 1: It's something we all struggle with. So just looking through
Speaker 1: the book, it was something that I think everybody could
Speaker 1: take something from. It turns out veterans are human, it
Speaker 1: is true. I mean a lot, like a lot of
Speaker 1: the things that you said about how we should sleep better,
Speaker 1: how we should eat better, that is not specific to veterans.
Speaker 1: So I think anybody could get something out of this book.
Speaker 1: Anything else that you're you want to get out there
Speaker 1: before we wrap this up. Yeah, absolutely. UM here's a
Speaker 1: couple of things. UM. First, you can find it on Amazon,
Speaker 1: pre order the Kindle edition. UM. The proceeds from the
Speaker 1: Kindle edition, I'm contributing to the trust fund for a
Speaker 1: family of UM, one of my friends who got killed
Speaker 1: earlier this year in Syria. So you're supporting the family
Speaker 1: of a dream beret doing that. Another point is going
Speaker 1: to separating from service dot com UM. You can buy
Speaker 1: especially boat copies directly through that. If you are the
Speaker 1: if you are running a program for veterans in transition,
Speaker 1: whether that is at the university level as a counselor
Speaker 1: at the university or in a corporate training environment or
Speaker 1: working UM at the unit level, you can email me
Speaker 1: at Eric at rating from service dot com. I'd be
Speaker 1: happy to come and speak or help you out with
Speaker 1: getting a discounted bulk copies for your program and I
Speaker 1: can help you set up that program. So that's definitely
Speaker 1: the most important thing is is helping folks get this
Speaker 1: set up UM within their existing programs. This has been awesome, man,
Speaker 1: this is such an important conversation to have, So I'm
Speaker 1: really glad that you came in. Sorry, Jack couldn't be here. Uh,
Speaker 1: but Jack will be here next episode for the listeners,
Speaker 1: so he's not going away. Thanks. Thanks again, man, great meeting,
Speaker 1: great pleasure to be here, and uh, I'll reach out
Speaker 1: next something talent awesome. You've been listening to self rep Radio.
Speaker 1: New episodes up every Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at self Rep radio