Speaker 1: Hey, this is Danny cancel At and welcome to stuff.
Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Hire Radios how
Speaker 1: stuff works. Today we are bringing to you are part
Speaker 1: two for our episode on bisexuality and for the trigger
Speaker 1: warning of the episode, UM, sexual assault, soicidality, mental health
Speaker 1: issues and domestic violence. Also, we strongly encourage you to
Speaker 1: listen to part one before listening to this one because
Speaker 1: Part one gives a lot of baseline definitions and introduction
Speaker 1: to our interviewees. Yes, they they introduced themselves far better
Speaker 1: and in that episode, UM yeah, just a lot of
Speaker 1: terms will be using. We're explained in that episode. UM.
Speaker 1: And we also went into the negative impact of birature
Speaker 1: and by negativity and that and before we get into um,
Speaker 1: all of our our guests interviews, we did want to
Speaker 1: touch on the media for a second. When it comes
Speaker 1: to bisexuality. There are several famous examples of celebrities, um
Speaker 1: who are bisexual, Angelina Jolie and a Paquin, Kara de
Speaker 1: Levine and Cumming, Abby Jacobson, Aus Walker and Kinda Billy
Speaker 1: Joe Arst, Billy Joe Arstrong, My my boy, my Homeboy
Speaker 1: had a huge cracks on him for years Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: Evan Rachel Wood, Drew Barrymore, Gina Rodriguez, Lady Gaga Rex
Speaker 1: and Gay, Tessa Thompson, lots more. There are some famous
Speaker 1: fictional examples, and right now the big one is Rosa
Speaker 1: Diaz on Brooklyn nine nine, Kellie Torres on Gray's Anatomy.
Speaker 1: There's Cat on Madame Secretary, Petro Solano on Jane the Virgin,
Speaker 1: David Rose on Ship's Creek, Grace Troy on Black Lightning,
Speaker 1: Nova Board a Lawn on Queen Sugar, Daryl White Feather
Speaker 1: on Crazy Ex Girlfriend who announced his bisexuality VI a
Speaker 1: Song or Yes, of course, Um, Sarah Lance and Constantine
Speaker 1: on Legends of Tomorrow, Nomi and Dave On on Grown Ish.
Speaker 1: I will say I haven't seen all of these. I
Speaker 1: cannot say I was gonna say I think I've seen
Speaker 1: like two or three of all of these. Yes, I
Speaker 1: cannot say they're good representations. UM. And I know that
Speaker 1: Constantine in particular, I can't say for sure if it's
Speaker 1: ever been like said definitively. UM, But those are examples
Speaker 1: I found people gave online. UM. One thing worth noting
Speaker 1: is there's far less men than women. Um. You could
Speaker 1: just help out the list. Yes, yes, and that is
Speaker 1: something that um was commented on a lot when I
Speaker 1: was looking into this. Looking into news outlets, the mainstream
Speaker 1: ones rarely right about bisexuality. For instance, in seen, the
Speaker 1: New York Times tweeted bisexual seven times and gay over
Speaker 1: one hundred. The Wall Street journe All has tweeted it
Speaker 1: twice and does not appear to have any stories with
Speaker 1: by our bisexual in the headline. And I got to
Speaker 1: thinking about some tropes, some stereotypes I've seen in our media,
Speaker 1: because for a long time bisexuality has kind of been
Speaker 1: a punchline in our entertainment. Um Carrie Bradshaw's Sex in
Speaker 1: the City line that it's just a layover on the
Speaker 1: way to gaytown, for instance, are Liz Lemon on Dirty
Speaker 1: Rock when she quips that it was just something invented
Speaker 1: in the nineties to sell hair products, or the l
Speaker 1: words assessment that it is quote just gross um or
Speaker 1: bisexual character as crazy in quotes are evil like Frank
Speaker 1: Underwood on House of Cards, Lady Goga's character Elizabeth on
Speaker 1: American Horror Story. Big examples of that, and this lack
Speaker 1: of good representation has consequences. It shapes how we see
Speaker 1: bisexual people and how bisexual people see themselves. We spoke
Speaker 1: to our panel of experts, Dr Tangela Roberts, Dr Tanya Israel,
Speaker 1: Diane Adams, and Haran green Smith, all of whom were
Speaker 1: rad are rad and activists in the bisexual community. Here's
Speaker 1: Tantel and Tanya. I think that, um, maybe like the
Speaker 1: media just can't get it right, because there's there's a
Speaker 1: lot of like mystery what is the bisexual and a
Speaker 1: lot of just what people talk about. Is this media
Speaker 1: representation of you know, either the sixth woman who the
Speaker 1: unicorn and she gets invited to like have a threesome
Speaker 1: with a couple, or no, that's about it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I was going to say, the evil bisexual, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the there's always the evil bisexual who's like, you know,
Speaker 1: running ramped and quare communities and like breaking lesbians hearts.
Speaker 1: Or but then at the same time, you have like
Speaker 1: the media image of like the lesbian who wants to
Speaker 1: like quote unquote terms straight women. I'm like, well, it
Speaker 1: couldn't be that those straight women are actually but I'm
Speaker 1: gonna talk a little bit about internalized stigma because what
Speaker 1: happens for people is that there's all these negative messages
Speaker 1: out there about uh, sexual orientation. I mean there's negative
Speaker 1: messages out there about all kinds of things. So you know,
Speaker 1: if if you're not a sexual minority person, you can
Speaker 1: think about things that you've heard, like let's say you're
Speaker 1: UM an ethnic minority person, you can think of things
Speaker 1: that you've heard about your ethnic groups. UM. If you're
Speaker 1: a person with a disability, you can think about like
Speaker 1: what did you hear about people with disabilities? And And
Speaker 1: the problem with all of those messages being out there
Speaker 1: in the world is if they get transmitted through so
Speaker 1: many different ways, through media representations and through what you
Speaker 1: learn in school, and what you hear from your faith
Speaker 1: leaders and what your parents tell you or what your
Speaker 1: parents are silent about and avoid telling you, and what
Speaker 1: your peers say or what you're fear ease you about
Speaker 1: or bully other people about. Like, these messages get communicated
Speaker 1: in so many different ways, And the problem is then
Speaker 1: we can start to believe those things about ourselves. Like
Speaker 1: even if on some level we're like, well, I don't
Speaker 1: think that's true, there may be some level, either conscious
Speaker 1: or a conscious that we start to believe those things.
Speaker 1: So when we internalize those negative messages from outside, it
Speaker 1: can really eat away at our mental health UM. And
Speaker 1: we can see that, like we know that UM internalized
Speaker 1: stigma for bisexual people is associated with UM negative mental
Speaker 1: health outcomes, and so we can see that the the
Speaker 1: more people believe those things, those negative things about the
Speaker 1: group that they belong to UM, then then they're going
Speaker 1: to UM you know, have more struggles with their mental health.
Speaker 1: The good news is, actually this is really exciting. I
Speaker 1: have to tell you this that my research team created
Speaker 1: this online intervention. So these online activities that interactive activities
Speaker 1: thinks about half an hour to do them, and they
Speaker 1: can actually decrease internalized stigma. So or if you you know,
Speaker 1: if you compare people who do these activities people who
Speaker 1: get other kinds of activities, like they've got lower internalized
Speaker 1: stigma in half an hour. And I'm like, wow, this
Speaker 1: is super exciting because UM, you know, it's it's a
Speaker 1: small difference that it makes, but it's encouraging to think
Speaker 1: that there are things that we can do that can
Speaker 1: actually change that for people UM UH. And we can
Speaker 1: help people like to support their resilience in the face
Speaker 1: of all of these negative messages that they get exposed to.
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited about that. So we have some
Speaker 1: more for you listeners, but first we have a quick
Speaker 1: break from a word from our sponsor, and we're back,
Speaker 1: Thank you, sponsor. One thing what we are curious about
Speaker 1: was the personal experiences of our interviewees. Then they were
Speaker 1: gracious enough to oblige. I learned amazing term and grad
Speaker 1: school about research one of my grad stool colleagues, so
Speaker 1: that at some point in in certain fields, probably not
Speaker 1: so much just like chemistry and physics, because there's like
Speaker 1: so much amazing things that you can do, but more
Speaker 1: so with like the social sciences, you tend to do
Speaker 1: a lot of research. You're like, I'm doing research all
Speaker 1: myself because this is experience that I have and I
Speaker 1: want to see other people have it. UM and that's
Speaker 1: sort of with my introduction into UM doing by research
Speaker 1: and it expanded a little bit. But some of my experiences,
Speaker 1: oh my god, oh my god. I dated queer women
Speaker 1: who have said that they were afraid I was going
Speaker 1: to leave them for as this man. UM usually like
Speaker 1: to me saying that it really doesn't better who I
Speaker 1: leave you for, because it cost you. We asked about
Speaker 1: their coming out stories. Oh yeah, it's it's I feel
Speaker 1: like it's so stereotypical. It was when I was in
Speaker 1: collegege I like, I almost like just hate saying it
Speaker 1: because like everyone's like, oh you everyone explores the sexual
Speaker 1: orientation in college. Sure, and I wanted to do something different.
Speaker 1: But no. It was when I was in college. I
Speaker 1: was at a um at a private Catholic school with
Speaker 1: like single single sex storms, and I fell in love
Speaker 1: with my roommate at the time, and that sort of
Speaker 1: put me in like a just until tales. Then I
Speaker 1: was like, wait, what is this? Like I like her,
Speaker 1: but I like her more than a friend. I like
Speaker 1: her like I want to always be around her. I
Speaker 1: like her like I have like boyfriends in the past. Uh,
Speaker 1: this was interesting, And I remember I think, like my
Speaker 1: confusion then wasn't wasn't really like, oh I'm confused about
Speaker 1: this orientation. It was like, oh, but wait, I don't
Speaker 1: think I don't I don't think leslian fits for me.
Speaker 1: I don't think lesbian is ever fit for me. And
Speaker 1: I actually remember like running out of the dorm room
Speaker 1: into like the quad area and I was like, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that that that guy that I saw that works in
Speaker 1: the library, he's still hot. Got it? Maybe I'm By
Speaker 1: And that's sort of what I'm just gonna have to
Speaker 1: stick with because yeah, I just sort of like what
Speaker 1: I like and it comes in different packages and Okay, sure,
Speaker 1: that's fine. Um. So it wasn't really like like that tremental,
Speaker 1: I guess for me. But I mean I did have
Speaker 1: some pretty negative experiences with some family members, and that
Speaker 1: it's always a process coming up the family, like they
Speaker 1: have to sort of go through their shock and grief
Speaker 1: and um hopefully eventually acceptance. But that's always that process.
Speaker 1: But I've been lucky enough to um have really really
Speaker 1: great friends honestly, Like I have the best group of
Speaker 1: people that I can call like my assumed family in
Speaker 1: the world. Um. And at that time, I was in college,
Speaker 1: and so I was lucky enough to sort of use
Speaker 1: my growing research interests as a way to explore more
Speaker 1: about sexual orientation. So it's like, Okay, I think I'm by,
Speaker 1: let me write, let me like do some research about
Speaker 1: this and see if I can like do a presentation
Speaker 1: on bisexuality and what if my classes can I get
Speaker 1: away with that? Sure? Why not? It's college. Well, the
Speaker 1: first thing I would say is, I, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't think I was bisexual when I was growing up,
Speaker 1: like when I was in high school and college. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think that I came out when I was
Speaker 1: twenty five. I think I actually like became bisexual in
Speaker 1: a way. Um, and and so I just want to
Speaker 1: sort of acknowledge that there can be fluidity in that also.
Speaker 1: But I'm also going to say this super clearly, the
Speaker 1: fact that people's sexual orientation can seen doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: can change it, you know, doesn't mean that you can
Speaker 1: like have a treatment or something that's going to change
Speaker 1: your sexual orientation. So there's a difference between like understanding
Speaker 1: fluidity and and trying to change sexual orientation. I know
Speaker 1: y'all know that, but I'm just bad, very yeah so
Speaker 1: so so So the first thing that changed was just
Speaker 1: sort of coming into my understanding of myself as bisexual,
Speaker 1: and um, for me, it started out a more cognitive process.
Speaker 1: I think that it does for other people. Like I
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I don't think I'm a I don't
Speaker 1: think I'm a zero on the Kinsey scale. I'm probably
Speaker 1: more like a one or two. So so then does
Speaker 1: it make sense for me to identify as heterosexual. And
Speaker 1: then I went, okay, what do identify as? So tells
Speaker 1: me a lot to kind of get to bisexual. But
Speaker 1: I'll tell you the the thing that where where I
Speaker 1: really was like, oh, yes, I'm bisexual was and this
Speaker 1: is this is a story about like the importance of
Speaker 1: visibility and community. Because I went to this conference. It
Speaker 1: was the Association for Women in Psychology conference and it's
Speaker 1: just feminist psychology conference and there's a caucus on bisexuality
Speaker 1: and sexual diversity there. So I was like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go to that. Yeah, but like that's the moment
Speaker 1: where I felt like, Okay, I can fully embrace this identity.
Speaker 1: And so so I'm just gonna say that that's something
Speaker 1: important is for people to be exposed to people who
Speaker 1: are like them, who are bisexual, because I'm not like
Speaker 1: all bisexual people. There's an awful lot of bisexual people
Speaker 1: out there and so might not be a fit, but
Speaker 1: finding those those specific groups, so that was really exciting
Speaker 1: that I was like, yeah, And then I I wrote
Speaker 1: some I did a presentation and I wrote some personal
Speaker 1: narrative stuff about being biracial and bisexual and so you know,
Speaker 1: I kind of put that out there, um, but then
Speaker 1: it was so it was a stalient part of my identity,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't necessarily like the only thing going on.
Speaker 1: I felt like I was, you know, part of a
Speaker 1: broader LGBTQ community. UM. And I would always say, you know,
Speaker 1: people would be like, oh, yeah, it's good to have
Speaker 1: all these lesbians together, and I would say, a bisexuals.
Speaker 1: You know, so I was always like speaking up about that,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't it was really um when I did
Speaker 1: the Ted talk and then you know, all of the
Speaker 1: stuff that's come after that that it's become like such
Speaker 1: a salient part of my identity and so you know,
Speaker 1: so I would say that the thing that's changed most
Speaker 1: is probably le the salience of it, um for my life.
Speaker 1: I will also say, because I was teaching this class
Speaker 1: on bisexuality, um, I as I dressed like the bisexual
Speaker 1: flag for each class. Here's Diana story. I had some
Speaker 1: struggles with with my coming out journey, particularly because I
Speaker 1: think that people perceive by women, particularly feminine, by women
Speaker 1: like me um as you know, flooty or as sexually
Speaker 1: promiscuous or is it interested in having freedoms? And so
Speaker 1: then people project that story onto you, and that's really,
Speaker 1: you know, too much information, too personal for being openly by,
Speaker 1: for instance, in the workplace or with your family, if
Speaker 1: that's the way people are perceiving what by means. And
Speaker 1: so I really dealt with that, um. Even at my
Speaker 1: first job as a lawyer, they circulated our resumes, which
Speaker 1: included my bisexuality activism as a law to it, and
Speaker 1: our pictures and the time, I was very blonde and
Speaker 1: feminine looking, and they decided, on the basis of the
Speaker 1: fact that I was basically a pretty feminine girl and
Speaker 1: that I was bisexual, that I shouldn't have any male
Speaker 1: supervisors because I was probably a risk for getting involved
Speaker 1: with one of my male supervisors because bisexual women, you know,
Speaker 1: must be sexually available, which is absolutely appalling. And this
Speaker 1: was a law firm in New York City, um, fifteen
Speaker 1: years ago. This was not so long ago, and that
Speaker 1: is still happening, that kind of experience, UM, of being
Speaker 1: over sexualized and stereotyped in that way. So I feel
Speaker 1: like you deal with a lot of that from the
Speaker 1: straight world and then in the lgbt Q world. At
Speaker 1: the same time, I was entering queer spaces and was
Speaker 1: perceived as not clear enough. And at the time the
Speaker 1: movie Legally Blonde had come out, and um, some of
Speaker 1: the lesbians and the lgbt Q group were teasing me
Speaker 1: and would like leave me pink luffy things and call
Speaker 1: me legally blonde because um, they also stereotyped me because
Speaker 1: I was feminine and I didn't wasn't queer enough for them, um,
Speaker 1: And so I got a lot of hostility from both sides,
Speaker 1: and even being openly bisexual, um, as a student activist
Speaker 1: with my law school professors and with my deans, I
Speaker 1: was then wondering, given those experiences, oh God, is my
Speaker 1: dean thinking about me having a freesome? Because that's what
Speaker 1: people think of when they think of bisexual. And so
Speaker 1: I'm very deeply involved in the l g b t
Speaker 1: q I community. But then I'm meeting colleagues who are
Speaker 1: often in the same sex relationships, and I have a husband,
Speaker 1: and so I still have to come out and I
Speaker 1: still see raised eyebrows and surprise looks that I'm very
Speaker 1: serious about this kind of activism and this kind of community,
Speaker 1: and yet I'm in a different sex partnership. So I'm
Speaker 1: still regularly having to come out and still dealing with
Speaker 1: that and having to sometimes wonder whether people are going
Speaker 1: to think of me differently or think of me as
Speaker 1: less of a part of the community. I have entered
Speaker 1: into a marriage with a bisexual man, and we went
Speaker 1: on vacation to Morocco and to Turkey, UH in the
Speaker 1: past year, and those are places where if I had
Speaker 1: happened to end up with a same sex UM spouse,
Speaker 1: it would not be safe for me to go to
Speaker 1: the places that I went to, and that is not
Speaker 1: fair and I have mixed feelings about that and part
Speaker 1: of the way that I use those privileges because I
Speaker 1: really do feel like now I have privileges, I'm not
Speaker 1: being actively stigmatized, that my marriage is not at risk,
Speaker 1: my parenting status is not at risk, I'm not at
Speaker 1: risk of violence. For traveling, I can go undercover and
Speaker 1: pass as just a white, different sex couple UM. I
Speaker 1: feel an extra responsibility to the LGBTQ community, and it's
Speaker 1: actually made me go deeper into my activism because I
Speaker 1: feel like I have the privilege to not have this
Speaker 1: be deeply traumatic on a day to day basis in
Speaker 1: terms of my own parenting status, and so for example,
Speaker 1: I work really actively to make sure that UM same
Speaker 1: sex couples and other LGBTQ families can maintain their parenting
Speaker 1: status because right now within the US and in Europe,
Speaker 1: it's still very common the same sex couples aren't able
Speaker 1: to get their parenting status. It is still completely legitimate
Speaker 1: and legal in much of the United States and Europe
Speaker 1: to discriminate in terms of foster care and adoption, to
Speaker 1: not evil, to not be able to adopt a child
Speaker 1: through many adoption agencies UM, and to not feel safe
Speaker 1: traveling in many places, and to not be able to
Speaker 1: get your parenting status recognized, which can really have devastating
Speaker 1: consequences if non biological parents are then excluded from hospital
Speaker 1: rooms when their kids are injured in the foreign countries,
Speaker 1: for example, because they're not recognized as a parent UM.
Speaker 1: So I feel really, I feel really committed UM to
Speaker 1: being there as an LGBTQ activist and feel UM the
Speaker 1: the deep inspiration to claim this as part of my
Speaker 1: identity because it's an important part of myself. Even though
Speaker 1: I happened to marry a man UM and to them
Speaker 1: use at um situation of greater relative comfort, which isn't
Speaker 1: fair to go back and support the rest of my
Speaker 1: LGBTQ community. And here's van. I'll tell um one personal
Speaker 1: story about facing discrimination from the my my supportive communities. UM.
Speaker 1: About uh, maybe seventy seven years ago, I was working
Speaker 1: in a large organizational, large LGBT organization, and I marched
Speaker 1: in Pride with my partner, who was a person of
Speaker 1: a different gender than me, long term partner. We've been
Speaker 1: together now for twelve years, and he and I were
Speaker 1: super excited to march and Pride. There was like a
Speaker 1: bedazzling shirt party beforehand, and we like cut our shirts
Speaker 1: up and bedazzled them with like the Beagle's metal like
Speaker 1: weird triangle German things. Um. We had like face paint
Speaker 1: on and like bandana's and we were carrying one end
Speaker 1: of like the balloon arch, the rainbow balloon are I'm like,
Speaker 1: we had fans were like handing up stickers, and he
Speaker 1: and I were holding hands the whole time and like
Speaker 1: smooching because everyone is holding hands and smooching, And we
Speaker 1: had a really fabulous time. And then we returned the
Speaker 1: balloon arch back to the main office of the organization
Speaker 1: and we were writing down from the offices to the
Speaker 1: bottom of the building, me, my partner, and then another
Speaker 1: of my coworkers, male Gates, who um I had worked
Speaker 1: with my entire internship there all summer and um so
Speaker 1: he knew me quite well and he had been there
Speaker 1: the entire time at the parade, and he said, hey, heron, um,
Speaker 1: I have someone I've loved to hook you up with.
Speaker 1: Can I give you her number? And I said, oh,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. You know, uh, my partner and
Speaker 1: I are actually in an ugomist thank you and for
Speaker 1: my monogamist right now. And he said, um, oh, who's
Speaker 1: your part nerve? And I looked down at mine and
Speaker 1: my partner's hands be helped together. And then I look
Speaker 1: up at my partner and I point to him and
Speaker 1: I'm like this person that partners like hi, And the
Speaker 1: man turned around in the elevator and faced the wall.
Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons I tell that stories
Speaker 1: because it is a really good illustration of bias in
Speaker 1: kind of a funny way. Um. But there's another story
Speaker 1: that I don't actually tell very frequently. UM, that really
Speaker 1: impacted my ability to do my job and to feel safe.
Speaker 1: It wasn't another organization and I was in the car
Speaker 1: was my immediate supervisor, and we were in the car
Speaker 1: for a long journey a couple of hours, and halfway
Speaker 1: through she turned to me out of the blue and
Speaker 1: she said, Karen, have you ever been in a long
Speaker 1: term relationship with a woman? And I felt cold all
Speaker 1: over and I knew that there was no right answer
Speaker 1: to this question. There were only wrong answers to this question. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as I said yes, she would make me define long term.
Speaker 1: If I said no, she would essentially use that as
Speaker 1: justification to herself. Two dismissed my queerness to dismiss me
Speaker 1: being part of her community. If I didn't say anything,
Speaker 1: I would be not answering my boss direct question to me.
Speaker 1: And it was clear that she thought this was an
Speaker 1: appropriate question to ask an employee. You know, we're both attorneys.
Speaker 1: We were headed to a hearing, and this is what
Speaker 1: started the day for me, demanding that I justify my
Speaker 1: identifications as a queer person. What was your response and
Speaker 1: what was her response? Does it matter to you what
Speaker 1: my response was? Actually? I think the reason I ask
Speaker 1: is because for so many people, what do you do
Speaker 1: in those situations? Like I cannot imagine being pigeonholed into
Speaker 1: that situation and for a woman or I'm sorry, a
Speaker 1: person like you who survived and continue to tell that
Speaker 1: story as something that has impacted you and will probably
Speaker 1: impact you obviously does for a long if not forever.
Speaker 1: I think that question came because like what did you do?
Speaker 1: What can you do? What did you do? I think
Speaker 1: that's my thought and just wondering like the audacity. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I want to push a little bit and
Speaker 1: not tell you because I I'm going to use this
Speaker 1: as like a little opportunity to, like, you know, let
Speaker 1: maybe you and some listeners be like a little uncomfortable
Speaker 1: with not knowing, because it doesn't matter. That's the truth
Speaker 1: about that question is the answer isn't relevant. You know,
Speaker 1: if someone had never had any relationship with anyone and
Speaker 1: identified as straight, we're gay, no one would ever question
Speaker 1: their sexual orientation. But for some reason, bi sexuality validity
Speaker 1: is predicated upon someone sexual contact with people and the
Speaker 1: quantity and the quality and the duration, and for some reason,
Speaker 1: our sexual orientation is the only sexual orientation subjected to
Speaker 1: that level of scrutiny and analysis. Mhm mm hmm. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm taking it all in. M There's a lot of
Speaker 1: emotions like a tears in my eyes right now, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna lie. So obviously we got a little emotional
Speaker 1: and we wanted to know how to be better allies. Obviously,
Speaker 1: as someone who misunderstood and did not quite see the
Speaker 1: depth of why this is so dangerous, misrepresenting bisexual the
Speaker 1: terms why it was so dangerous, I definitely had to ask,
Speaker 1: how do I become a better ally? How do I
Speaker 1: make sure that this does not happen in my circle
Speaker 1: or those around me, or my influencing um And as
Speaker 1: you can hear, there's a moment of intensity with heron
Speaker 1: and it was really uncomfortable. But as uncomfortable as it was,
Speaker 1: her point was amazing, the fact that this is how
Speaker 1: she felt, this is how uncomfortable she was as well.
Speaker 1: And it was like, wow, you know what, I really
Speaker 1: appreciate this moment, even though again I was super uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: We all kind of stopped and I looked around. I
Speaker 1: was like, what's happening? But it was so necessary and
Speaker 1: it was so important that she was able to say that, well,
Speaker 1: like I said, funding is I mean, funding is definitely
Speaker 1: UM at the source of a lot of uh social issues, right. UM,
Speaker 1: So if you're looking at UM and I don't have
Speaker 1: I don't have the numbers off hand UM, but if
Speaker 1: there's a few articles that have showed like the amounts
Speaker 1: of UM federal, both federal and both community funds UM
Speaker 1: to LGBT organizations, and if you're breaking them down by
Speaker 1: identity bisexual people, although statistically they they're most people who
Speaker 1: identify as quote of LGBT identified by LGB Looking at
Speaker 1: sexual orientation identifies bisexuals, there's more people who identify it's
Speaker 1: bisexual than there are people who identify as lead's beinging gay.
Speaker 1: But we have the numbers in terms of like you know,
Speaker 1: we got like a whole bipote over here, but we're
Speaker 1: not getting the fund for that. So even though there
Speaker 1: is a ton of people who identify as bisexual, that
Speaker 1: isn't represented in the funding for UM by programming for
Speaker 1: bisexual awareness, for health disparities research, for any other types
Speaker 1: of research. So it's it's in an interesting place where
Speaker 1: you have the bodies, but you don't have the money
Speaker 1: to support those bodies. Recently, actually I saw an article
Speaker 1: going around social media that said the a large number
Speaker 1: of black women identify as bisexual, and I was like,
Speaker 1: du like seriously, we're just not talking about this. UM.
Speaker 1: And so again, we have the numbers, we know that
Speaker 1: there's a ton of black women who identifies bisexual, but
Speaker 1: I haven't seen any type of resources or UM research
Speaker 1: or sort of health advocacy or any sort of social
Speaker 1: attitude specifically for black bi women. We know the numbers
Speaker 1: are there, but why aren't we sort of supporting that
Speaker 1: when we have we have the data that shows we
Speaker 1: have the people right everything in research, It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: if you have if you have the people, then you
Speaker 1: know you can do the studies, and you can you
Speaker 1: can you should be able to get the funding, and
Speaker 1: it's we're not. We're not getting that. We have a
Speaker 1: lot of people, but we don't have money to support
Speaker 1: those people. And that support to just look at look
Speaker 1: like funding UM, I mean bisexual organizations like UM, buy
Speaker 1: net USA, like the New York Area Bisexual Network like
Speaker 1: rc UM offering more funding so they can do more
Speaker 1: community work. UM having more research funding, I mean a
Speaker 1: by person who research and bisexuals. I would I would
Speaker 1: love to be able to apply for like a by
Speaker 1: specific like federal grant, but that'd be amazing UM. And
Speaker 1: that's not and it's not just in like, oh, I
Speaker 1: want that for me, because I'm not. It's not for me.
Speaker 1: I'm not doing you know, research like on me and
Speaker 1: Milling and on other people. And it's so I can
Speaker 1: it's so people who can able to distiminate this research
Speaker 1: out so we can reach more people and have like
Speaker 1: a bigger impact. UM. So I think it really it
Speaker 1: all blows down to the money at the end of
Speaker 1: the day. I think that, UM, it's really powerful to
Speaker 1: do things like this UM and actually really listen. So
Speaker 1: I really appreciate everybody who's listening and being open to
Speaker 1: hearing from people from that community. And I'm appreciative that
Speaker 1: you are bringing people on who are from the bio
Speaker 1: community to really hear about our experiences. And I think
Speaker 1: that it's really useful throughout the LGBTQ community to be
Speaker 1: listening to the experiences and lived experiences of people who
Speaker 1: are themselves transgender, who are intersex, who are a sexual,
Speaker 1: who are lesbian, who are gay or transgender, and being
Speaker 1: able to UM continue to keep an open mind and
Speaker 1: continue listening. I'm still listening. I've been listening for twenty
Speaker 1: years to my colleagues and my community and we're all
Speaker 1: still learning, so I think being in a learning space
Speaker 1: is really helpful. I also think that as I feel
Speaker 1: the personal emotional space to take on some of these
Speaker 1: issues because they're not directing my own parenting status, for example,
Speaker 1: in a traumatic way, I think that's there's a really
Speaker 1: powerful space for allies when, for example, there have been
Speaker 1: absolutely horrific um horrific measures by the current Trump administration. UM,
Speaker 1: it's really useful when your lgbt Q friends are just
Speaker 1: feeling emotionally exhausted to be the one who's spreading the
Speaker 1: word online, who's talking to people about fundraisers, about issues,
Speaker 1: about calling your senators, having the energy to do that
Speaker 1: in moments when people in the LGBT community themselves might
Speaker 1: just feel really defeated. So I think that there's a
Speaker 1: lot of really powerful opportunities to be an ally. UM.
Speaker 1: I am a very committed ally, for example, to people
Speaker 1: in the transgender community, and I feel a lot of
Speaker 1: alliance between the bisexual and transgender community. As often the
Speaker 1: hidden or more forgotten parts of the l g b
Speaker 1: t Q I a continuum, and so I'm often interested
Speaker 1: in amplifying voices of transgender people as all as of
Speaker 1: intersex and a sexual people, UM, along with bisexual people,
Speaker 1: to sort of remind people that the only the only
Speaker 1: image out there isn't doesn't need to just be of
Speaker 1: lesbian and gay people who are in same sex marriages.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's particularly important right now when
Speaker 1: the transgender, when tending gender Americans are under so much attack,
Speaker 1: and when there's been advisories from Trump's Health and Human
Speaker 1: Services that uh, people who are medical workers could not
Speaker 1: even maybe don't even treat transgender people because of a
Speaker 1: religious exemption, UM, and that homeless shelters would be able
Speaker 1: to turn away transgender people. I think that, um, those
Speaker 1: measures may not happen, UM, but still they are a
Speaker 1: real hospile message to the very human dignity of people
Speaker 1: in the transgender community. And people are feeling really beaten down,
Speaker 1: and so I'm often picking up the mantle and working
Speaker 1: on those issues. And my nonprofit Wasn't kind of Low
Speaker 1: Center has a Transgender Umbrella project, which is providing pro
Speaker 1: bono services in New York and New Jersey to transgender
Speaker 1: low income people to do a full We're calling it
Speaker 1: an umbrella to protect from whatever storms come of legal
Speaker 1: protection as well as name change package, because I think
Speaker 1: that's really important to be UM bisexual allies for the
Speaker 1: trans community. And I think that everybody can be an
Speaker 1: ally to people who are by by remembering in those
Speaker 1: moments to not erase bisexuals from the conversation. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: when you're watching the Queen documentary, to say, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: don't describe him as a gay man. He actually had
Speaker 1: a long term female partner. UM sounds like by to me,
Speaker 1: you know, just being being willing to be part of
Speaker 1: that conversation of not erasing bisexual people from our community history,
Speaker 1: if I think, also really helpful. So one of the
Speaker 1: things that I had asked about in being an ally
Speaker 1: was something specifically with my job. I' do work with teenagers.
Speaker 1: I do work with at risk kids UM, and I
Speaker 1: work with them in the Southern State, and for that
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of training or understanding, and we
Speaker 1: do talk about the LGBTQ, but just like a majority
Speaker 1: of the society, we can't. We concentrate on the l
Speaker 1: g and the T that's about it. And I wanted
Speaker 1: to know how do we service these youths who do
Speaker 1: identify as bisexual or who are trying to figure out
Speaker 1: if they're bisexual, and here she isn't speaking about it.
Speaker 1: I've written a bunch about how we can support I
Speaker 1: use um, how we can support by adults. Um. The
Speaker 1: easiest way is, honestly, just to have conversations like these,
Speaker 1: just talk about bisexuality, you know, normalize it among your
Speaker 1: non by communities so people are like, oh yeah, by
Speaker 1: totally cool. Um. The second way is to integrate examples
Speaker 1: of buy and Pan folks into your all of your literature.
Speaker 1: And that means posters on the walls, that means choirs,
Speaker 1: That means board report, that means UM research, that means
Speaker 1: outreach to youth, and outreach to donors and outreach to
Speaker 1: the community. UM. Something simple as you know, Uh, Bianca,
Speaker 1: a black by trans woman, was able to get a
Speaker 1: placement at this organization thanks to our work. Yea um.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you want to go a little
Speaker 1: bit deeper, then you know, have a support group for
Speaker 1: by and Pan youth, you know, once a month, and
Speaker 1: I promise you nobody will come for two months. And
Speaker 1: I think that the point at which a lot of
Speaker 1: folks say all that means there's no buy and trans people,
Speaker 1: Buy and Pan people here and that's the problem. Nobody. Well,
Speaker 1: I should back up a little bit. By and trans
Speaker 1: folks have buy and Pan folks have been burned so
Speaker 1: frequently by organizations who try and kind of do a
Speaker 1: nominal support for buy and Pan communities that we're really
Speaker 1: really suspicious. But if an organization has a regular buy
Speaker 1: and Pan support group night and they keep at it,
Speaker 1: even if there's no one there for six months, people
Speaker 1: will come out. But you need to keep at it,
Speaker 1: I promise you. All the data shows that buy and
Speaker 1: Pan youth are everywhere, and we are the majority of
Speaker 1: youth being served in every youth services organization that serves LGBT.
Speaker 1: Use I am wrote a piece called Bisexuality Margins to
Speaker 1: Center um to to think about ways that within the
Speaker 1: field of psychology and in society, we we thought about
Speaker 1: bisexuality as being on the margins and and so we
Speaker 1: haven't been paying attention to it, so we don't see
Speaker 1: it clearly, and so we're not actually like understanding who
Speaker 1: bisexual people are in responding to their need. So what
Speaker 1: happens if we bring bisexuality into the center and use
Speaker 1: it as a lens to understand things you can't understand
Speaker 1: bisexuality without understanding health severity. You can't understand bi sexuality
Speaker 1: without understanding history. You can't understand bisexuality without understanding media
Speaker 1: representations and mental health and uh and mental health services
Speaker 1: and like all these different things attitudes. So I was
Speaker 1: really teaching about a lot of different topics to the
Speaker 1: lens of bisexuality because then you know, we understand all
Speaker 1: of these things better. So that's the thing. If we
Speaker 1: center bisexuality, it helps us understand everything. We can then understand, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, people who are in relationships with people of
Speaker 1: the same gender, people who are in relationships with people
Speaker 1: of another gender, we can understand, and gender more complexly also, um,
Speaker 1: we can understand it multidimensionally. It helps us to complexify attraction.
Speaker 1: I sort of thought I made up as works to plexify,
Speaker 1: but apparently it's it's an actual word. Love It so
Speaker 1: that the thing about attraction is that we might have
Speaker 1: attractions that are slightly different to some people, Like we
Speaker 1: might fall in love with some types of people and
Speaker 1: you know, wants to have sex with other types of people,
Speaker 1: And in bisexuality, we we have a better understanding of that.
Speaker 1: But that's something that's true of everybody. You know, everybody's
Speaker 1: dots are sort of differences that they that they feel
Speaker 1: about attraction. Um, And so so we can see attractions
Speaker 1: through a different we can also some people, Um, some
Speaker 1: of the negativity around bisexuality is because people see bisexual
Speaker 1: people as being just really like hyper sexual, and so
Speaker 1: there's a lot of negativity about sexuality that's related to
Speaker 1: negativity about bisexuality. So I'm like, maybe centering bisexuality allows
Speaker 1: us to talent all that negativity around sexuality, to talent erotophobia,
Speaker 1: you know, to say, Okay, well, you know, maybe bisexual
Speaker 1: people like are affectual, but maybe so are heterosexual people
Speaker 1: and lovely to gay people and and maybe that's okay, um,
Speaker 1: and and to embrace our sexuality. Same thing with monogamy.
Speaker 1: You know, we spend a lot of time trying to
Speaker 1: combat this stereotype that bisexual people can't be monogamous, because
Speaker 1: it turns out that bisexual people, as a fact, are
Speaker 1: able to be monogamous. So so we know that, and
Speaker 1: we know that that bisexual people can't evenogous. However, bisexual
Speaker 1: people might be less likely to want to be monogamous, um,
Speaker 1: and might be less likely to be monogamous than other
Speaker 1: people are. Now that doesn't mean that they cheat. You know,
Speaker 1: we're talking about like consensual non monogamy here. So maybe bisexuality,
Speaker 1: if we center that, we can be like, Okay, how
Speaker 1: does that help us to understand different kinds of arrangements
Speaker 1: of relationships? And maybe that helps us to accept nonmonogamy,
Speaker 1: you know, for people who want that, And maybe it
Speaker 1: helps us think about how to negotiate relationships so that
Speaker 1: it is consensual nonmonogamy and so that you know, so
Speaker 1: that everybody's clear um. And and then I just think,
Speaker 1: you know, the potential to revolutionized gender is is one
Speaker 1: of the most exciting things about bisexuality because, like, like
Speaker 1: I said, I don't think that it reinforces the idea
Speaker 1: of binary gender. In fact, I think ultimately bisexuality challenges
Speaker 1: the idea that gender is narrow and that gender is
Speaker 1: the most important characteristic for us to organize the way
Speaker 1: we think about people. So I think if we do that,
Speaker 1: you know, if we start to do that, then we
Speaker 1: can all that say, wow, how do we center transgender
Speaker 1: people and gender non binary people, How do we center
Speaker 1: other groups that are really vulnerable in our society? How
Speaker 1: do we center black lives, how do we center people
Speaker 1: with disabilities? How do we center people who are Muslim
Speaker 1: and people of other um non dominant religions. And so
Speaker 1: I think it just gives us a lot of opportunity
Speaker 1: to start um expanding our thinking about bisexuality, but also
Speaker 1: about everybody who's on the margins, and and how we
Speaker 1: can actually transform and improve our society by bringing all
Speaker 1: those vulnerable people into the center. We have some advice
Speaker 1: and resources for you listeners, but first we have a
Speaker 1: quick break for word from our sponsors. We're back, Thank
Speaker 1: you sponsor, and we're back with some advice. Advice is
Speaker 1: always welcome, aways welcome, but generally welcome. It's actually good advice. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and this was good advice. The other day, a friend
Speaker 1: of mine and I were talking about how when we
Speaker 1: were young and we realized that we both had a
Speaker 1: crush on both Molder and Scully, and we were so
Speaker 1: confused and we didn't like, we didn't know bisexuality was
Speaker 1: a thing, and feeling so confused about it, and um,
Speaker 1: as we got older, kind of this internalized by negativity
Speaker 1: that we thought it must be a phase, because that's
Speaker 1: what we kept hearing, like you're young, You're going to
Speaker 1: grow out of it. Um. Do you have any advice
Speaker 1: for maybe younger people listening who are struggling with this
Speaker 1: right now? Mm hmm absolutely and I completely with a
Speaker 1: molder and Scully both and kind of girl as an
Speaker 1: ex file stand in nan um and UM, I think
Speaker 1: that it's okay to be in an experimental phase. I
Speaker 1: think one of the things that is really stigmatizing about
Speaker 1: people who are bisexual is there's this idea that many
Speaker 1: people who are bisexual are just in a phase, and
Speaker 1: so there's understandable hurt in UM. Sometimes a lesbian and
Speaker 1: gay community with by people who are going to try
Speaker 1: out dating them and then decided isn't for them? Um
Speaker 1: and uh, you know a lot of people that get
Speaker 1: hurt in that process. Sometimes. I think that my suggestion
Speaker 1: is to be open to experimentation in a safe way
Speaker 1: with people that you trust, without needing to have alcohol
Speaker 1: involved or that need to have substances involved, UM, but
Speaker 1: finding people who feel really safe and being able to
Speaker 1: communicate honestly with them if you aren't sure. I think
Speaker 1: that UM, rather than leaping into feeling like you need
Speaker 1: to have a label for your identity, right away. Um.
Speaker 1: You don't need to decesimilarly decide if you're by, if
Speaker 1: your pan, if you're gay, if you're lesbian, if your trans, um,
Speaker 1: if you're a general non binary. I think that it's
Speaker 1: possible just to have some experiences and see what feels
Speaker 1: right to you and be honest with the people around
Speaker 1: you when you're not sure how you feel. Um. And
Speaker 1: I think that it's also kind to those around you
Speaker 1: if you say, um, you know, hey, this is my
Speaker 1: first same sex relationship, but I'm not actually sure how
Speaker 1: it's going to go for me, rather than meet someone
Speaker 1: and say that you're bisexual and keep that hidden, and
Speaker 1: especially if there might be the possibility they might decide, actually,
Speaker 1: this isn't for me. Um. So I think that some
Speaker 1: of that hurt that people have around people who are
Speaker 1: experimentally by can be dealt with partly by just all
Speaker 1: communicating a little bit more and being okay with the
Speaker 1: possibility of experimenting. It's fine to need some time to
Speaker 1: try to figure out who you are and try different experiences,
Speaker 1: and sometimes you try something and figure out it as
Speaker 1: for you and that's okay. So UM. I hope that
Speaker 1: people can find safe places and safe people to feel
Speaker 1: like they can have those experiences. And I recognize that
Speaker 1: in much of the world, even in most of the
Speaker 1: United States, it isn't actually safe for UM, a teenager,
Speaker 1: for a college student necessarily to express same sex interest
Speaker 1: and desire, and there's a lot of pressure to keep
Speaker 1: yourself in the closet and to just play along with
Speaker 1: being straight and UM. And I think that's really understandable,
Speaker 1: and that it isn't always a safe thing to get
Speaker 1: out and experiment with who you are UM. But there
Speaker 1: are really wonderful supportive communities for you if you can
Speaker 1: get yourself to them. UM. I was definitely one of
Speaker 1: those people who fled to New York City when I
Speaker 1: got the chance from a small working class or old
Speaker 1: town UM and found myself in a place where then
Speaker 1: it felt like it was safe to explore that part
Speaker 1: of myself with other really conscious people who are also
Speaker 1: interested in communicating and talking about it and processing who
Speaker 1: we were. And they're embracing l g B, t q
Speaker 1: I A communities out there UM online. If you can't
Speaker 1: physically get to them, there's you know, wonderful supportive resources
Speaker 1: and people who are happy to talk and help process UM.
Speaker 1: So I would encourage people who are experimenting, who are
Speaker 1: who are thinking out experimenting, who are confused, to feel
Speaker 1: free to reach out to UM supportive people who've been
Speaker 1: in the community for a while, because I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of UM support and a feeling of kinship
Speaker 1: with that kind of journey, because you know, most of
Speaker 1: us have been on bumpy journey to get where we
Speaker 1: are now. We have some resources on our website UM
Speaker 1: at Chosen Family Laws and or dot org UM, and
Speaker 1: we post things really frequently online and in our newsletter UM.
Speaker 1: And in addition, there's a book that I really love
Speaker 1: UM called Whipping Girl by Julia Serrano UM and she
Speaker 1: is a transsexual woman. She called herself trans sexual, that's
Speaker 1: her own definition UM. And she talks about sexism and
Speaker 1: the scapegoating of feminity. And she's also works with UH
Speaker 1: at last as an endochronologist or has endo chronology knowledge.
Speaker 1: So she describes her experience of living UM as somebody
Speaker 1: who is assigned male at birth and then going through
Speaker 1: the experience of UM identifying as female and experiencing sexism
Speaker 1: for the first time UM and it's incredibly powerful. And
Speaker 1: she also writes about the UH overlap between bisexuality and
Speaker 1: being transgender and UM. I think she does that really
Speaker 1: powerfully and also conveys UH the kind of definition of
Speaker 1: bisexuality that I use UM in terms of bisexuality, not
Speaker 1: referring to UM A gender binary is only male and female.
Speaker 1: So I think that's one really fantastic resource UM. And
Speaker 1: there's a really really active and vibrant community online where
Speaker 1: you can find lots of lots of continuing conversation and
Speaker 1: sometimes in fighting in the community. And and speaking of infighting,
Speaker 1: I want to point out that although I personally use
Speaker 1: the term bisexual, and I think it's important that we
Speaker 1: hang onto that, and I haven't switched over to pan
Speaker 1: sexual and don't think that there's necessarily a need for
Speaker 1: a new word. I completely support people in using whatever
Speaker 1: words and definitions feel right for them. So I support
Speaker 1: people who feel like they want to use pan sexual
Speaker 1: because it's going to be more readily apparent to people
Speaker 1: who aren't necessarily activists in this space that it's transclusive
Speaker 1: UM or froom. It just feels like the right term.
Speaker 1: And I think it's important that while we hang onto
Speaker 1: works like bisexual, which are legal medical definition important for
Speaker 1: our activism politically UM that we also feel free to
Speaker 1: experiment with words that UM are really personally meaningful for us,
Speaker 1: and that can be and ever evolving. UM a set
Speaker 1: of terms that describe how people are feeling abou their identity,
Speaker 1: and I think that's absolutely a valid part of the
Speaker 1: queer continuum. And I think that something that's also powerful
Speaker 1: and not spoken of very often is the way that
Speaker 1: we can go through a journey over the course of
Speaker 1: our lifetime. And I think I have personally, you know,
Speaker 1: known people who may have in the nineties identified as
Speaker 1: a UM uh you know, ah butch lesbian who then
Speaker 1: went on to identify as a trans man who now
Speaker 1: may identify as more non binary as the different ideas
Speaker 1: in our community evolved. And I don't think that that
Speaker 1: makes any of those identifications any less valid, but I
Speaker 1: think they were all on an active journey as a
Speaker 1: community to to understand the full realms of um our
Speaker 1: sexuality and gender spectrums and the ways that both can
Speaker 1: even shift over a lifetime. I think that's also something
Speaker 1: that's worth mentioning about bisexual identity that's really true for
Speaker 1: me and many people I know, is that it is
Speaker 1: not necessarily fixed at all times, and so over the
Speaker 1: course of my twenty years of adult life, I haven't
Speaker 1: necessarily been at all times fifty percent romantically and sexually
Speaker 1: interested to men and women. There have been times when
Speaker 1: I felt like I am mostly a lesbian, but I
Speaker 1: am married to my husband and I love him, and
Speaker 1: all other men kind of gross me out. And there
Speaker 1: have been other times where I was primarily dating men. Um.
Speaker 1: There have been times where I was primarily romantically attracted
Speaker 1: to men and primarily actually attracted to women, which is complicated,
Speaker 1: let me tell you, UM. And I think that all
Speaker 1: of that is a really realistic portrayal of what this
Speaker 1: journey can be like. And so if people feel a
Speaker 1: little bit messy and confused along the way, or feel
Speaker 1: like they're definition of themselves is shifting, I don't think
Speaker 1: that's a problem. I think I think that's a feature,
Speaker 1: not a bug. I think that's part of a beautiful,
Speaker 1: expansive vision of queer identity that we're working on now.
Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the ways that the
Speaker 1: word queer is actually a really useful word, because queer
Speaker 1: embraces a full continue them of identification and doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: require us to break ourselves down into like are you
Speaker 1: in the ELB you know, are you over here in
Speaker 1: the L box or the G box, B box, the
Speaker 1: T box. I think that allows for multiple ways of
Speaker 1: identifying which are outside of a system that uh enforces
Speaker 1: sort of heterosexual different sex monogamy and people being sis gender.
Speaker 1: Everybody who who feels like they are somewhere outside of
Speaker 1: that or wants to allow for the possibility of that,
Speaker 1: I think clear as a wonderful word in that way
Speaker 1: as well. So one of my suggestions for listeners might
Speaker 1: be to embrace the ways that they are evolving in
Speaker 1: METHY and not feel any guilt a shame about that. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I'd say, like, you're not, like, you're not alone. It
Speaker 1: might it might seem like you're, you know, surrounded by
Speaker 1: people who are some sort of different and the type
Speaker 1: of different that you are people don't really get, but
Speaker 1: you're not alone. Like there's massive bisexual communities that are
Speaker 1: out there. Um yeah, younger people, older people, you know,
Speaker 1: there's community, you know, um yeah, it might be kind
Speaker 1: of hard to find at first if you're not sure
Speaker 1: like where to look, but there's community out there, and
Speaker 1: you know, like there's as much as there's like the
Speaker 1: stereotype of like the confused bisexual, there's there's nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with being confused, like people are. Humanity is like the
Speaker 1: confusing concept, and it's it's okay, sort of like I
Speaker 1: think that you want to figure some stuff out and
Speaker 1: that's fine. Um, you know, being being confused for a bit, um,
Speaker 1: it's fine, but just trying not to give into the
Speaker 1: pressure that you have to choose a side when both
Speaker 1: sides are great, great um white shoes, when you can
Speaker 1: just live in either or life. I don't think there's
Speaker 1: anything wrong with like answering both and right. Um. I
Speaker 1: joke around a lot with my friends when you know,
Speaker 1: we're just doing anything and they're like, oh, do you
Speaker 1: want this or do you want this? And my answer
Speaker 1: is just gonna be yes, Like do you want Indian flu?
Speaker 1: Do you want Mexican food? Yes? I think that sort
Speaker 1: of shifting that mindset. I mean, like I say it jokingly,
Speaker 1: but like that's sort of what I want to do
Speaker 1: is sort of shift shift people's mindset that it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be do you want um one sex or
Speaker 1: one gender or one expression or like a whole unquole
Speaker 1: opposite sex, gender, expressions, and they're multiple sexus genders and expressions.
Speaker 1: But I think, you know, for some people to answer
Speaker 1: is just yes, and that should just be okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think my advice is just to trust yourself. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe you do like going to science bisexual, Maybe you
Speaker 1: identify as pan sexual. Maybe your sexual orientation is fluid.
Speaker 1: A lot of people have fluid sexual orientation, and that's
Speaker 1: okay too. Maybe you've gone through different labels in your
Speaker 1: life and you change labels as you age, and that's
Speaker 1: okay too. Sexual orientation is natural. It is immutable in
Speaker 1: the sense that everybody has a sexual orientation. But if
Speaker 1: yours changes over time, that's okay too. You can be
Speaker 1: born the way you are and that way fluctually and
Speaker 1: evolve over time and still be just as valid as
Speaker 1: people who knew from the time they were for and
Speaker 1: have never changed. That's great too. But those among us
Speaker 1: who have fluid sexual orientations, we are just as valid
Speaker 1: and we were born the way we are. So if
Speaker 1: you have an evolution and the evolution ends with you
Speaker 1: identifying as buy your pan welcome. I love you. You
Speaker 1: are part of my non monosexual community and you're amazing.
Speaker 1: And if you are just stopping by non mono sexuality
Speaker 1: through the day of your lifetime. You're also amazing. I
Speaker 1: love you, UM, and I will advocate for you throughout
Speaker 1: your lifetime. And yeah, I mean we're all awesome, We're
Speaker 1: all cool. So the Bisexual Resource Center is a great UM.
Speaker 1: It's got an online size of so in based in Boston,
Speaker 1: but but if you look for Bisexual Resource Center online,
Speaker 1: they're on Twitter. They they do a lot of work. UM.
Speaker 1: They've got a lot of resources available around bisexuality and
Speaker 1: and they're super awesome and collaborative. UM by Net USA
Speaker 1: is also a great organization that does a lot of
Speaker 1: organizing and that and that brings together, you know, people
Speaker 1: on these issues and there's a lot of advocacy and
Speaker 1: so that's a great group. There is a conference in
Speaker 1: Minneapolis every year UM for UM for bisexual people. It's
Speaker 1: called the Because Conference and it's been going on for
Speaker 1: decades and most people don't know that. And so if
Speaker 1: you actually want to go to a BI conference, you
Speaker 1: can do that. There's also gonna be a BI conference
Speaker 1: in San Francisco this October UM, so that's something UM.
Speaker 1: And then there's also one of my favorite UM efforts
Speaker 1: around promoting visibility for bisexual people is uh this still
Speaker 1: Bisexual campaign. So if you look up like hashtag still bisexual, UM,
Speaker 1: you'll find videos that people that bisexual people have made
Speaker 1: where they tell their stories through these sort of like
Speaker 1: they don't seek They've got like cards that they've written
Speaker 1: on and there's music and there. It's a lovely way
Speaker 1: to find bisexual people who might be similar to you
Speaker 1: because you can search on their website by different um,
Speaker 1: different types of bisexual people, like bisexual women or older
Speaker 1: bisexual people, or you know, different kinds of like bisexual
Speaker 1: people of color, different intersections, And I think that that's
Speaker 1: a great way to try to find yourself reflected somewhere.
Speaker 1: It's also a great way to be more visible, like
Speaker 1: if people are like, hey, I want to do something
Speaker 1: to support other bisexual people, and you can do that
Speaker 1: and you might find this that it also supports you
Speaker 1: actually speaking yourself or sharing your story and affirming that.
Speaker 1: It can be a great way to UM to actually
Speaker 1: elevate your own UM feelings about yourself as a bisexual person.
Speaker 1: And UM. The bisexual Dispecsion groups that we have at
Speaker 1: Santa Barbara UM a bunch of us participated. They actually
Speaker 1: like the still bisexual folks came up from l A
Speaker 1: and filmed us, and people in the group have talks
Speaker 1: about how meaningful that wants for them to do that,
Speaker 1: to share that, to get responses from people, honest. So
Speaker 1: I really think that's a very cool effort. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I saw you got your video and one of the
Speaker 1: cards was that you write bisexual haiku. Is that true?
Speaker 1: It is true? I write bisexual hi t I call
Speaker 1: it by two. Here's a bike tou that I've wrote.
Speaker 1: Five month is over and I'm still bisexual. I'm not shocked,
Speaker 1: are you? It's so good. So and in my class
Speaker 1: um for the last day of class, I the students
Speaker 1: I asked them to write a bi cou to summarize
Speaker 1: something that they learned in the class. And so the
Speaker 1: students wrote a bunch of awesome by twos. So I
Speaker 1: also tweeted those out, so you'll be able to find
Speaker 1: stuff that my amazing students. And of course we had
Speaker 1: to ask about silver Line right, hope, some hope in
Speaker 1: the future. Some projects going on, some amazing projects. I'm
Speaker 1: working on this project with the colleague of mine, Amanda
Speaker 1: call it on definitions of bisexuality. UM. So that's one
Speaker 1: that we're um, we're working on writing and finishing up.
Speaker 1: But I'm in my own research and um, well that's
Speaker 1: of my research. But in my own research is my
Speaker 1: new position as an assistant professor. I am doing a
Speaker 1: study on the impact of micro aggression for queer people
Speaker 1: of color, um. And with that, I'm also collecting data
Speaker 1: on people, well black queer people, UM, but I'm also
Speaker 1: collecting data on black bisexual people to sort of do
Speaker 1: an interview and get some of their experiences. So I'm
Speaker 1: really really excited about this one because one, I'm like
Speaker 1: specifically looking at black queer people, um. And it's how
Speaker 1: I'm starting like this new chapter of my life in
Speaker 1: terms of this new position that I'm in and really
Speaker 1: trying to like establish myself um further with research. So
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about looking at this concept of microaggression, um,
Speaker 1: both in terms of race and in terms of sexual
Speaker 1: orientation as experienced by bisexual people. So I'm still I'm
Speaker 1: still recruiting for that one actually, so it was probably
Speaker 1: going to be recruiting for a few more months. UM,
Speaker 1: but I'm so excited to get more people to take
Speaker 1: the survey and sort of start to analyze the results
Speaker 1: from that. I'm I'm really excited about what this is
Speaker 1: going to look like. I'm part of a group called
Speaker 1: by Law as a Dye Law, and it's a group
Speaker 1: of bisexual attorneys who are activists around this issue. And
Speaker 1: we didn't for example, and Amicust briefed the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: during the Supreme Court litigation related to same sex marriage
Speaker 1: about making sure that bisexual people were included in the language,
Speaker 1: because much of the language was speaking only about kay
Speaker 1: and lesbian people and not speaking about the fact that
Speaker 1: m bisexuals are also impacted. And so you know, it's
Speaker 1: not just that people who are gay or lesbian um
Speaker 1: wouldn't have the opportunity to get married. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: only only gay leslieople you know, couldn't get married because
Speaker 1: they u can't get into a different sex marriage. Even
Speaker 1: for me, as a bisexual person, if I wanted to
Speaker 1: choose that that should also be valid. Even if I
Speaker 1: could potentially be in a different sex relationship, I might
Speaker 1: want to choose the same sex relationship. So making sure
Speaker 1: that that language is included is something that we often
Speaker 1: are the ones who will submit an antechast brief bring
Speaker 1: up that issue. This also comes up in issues like
Speaker 1: UM integration cases when people are refugees who made stigmatized
Speaker 1: because they are UM, because they've been in UM same
Speaker 1: sex relationships, because they're perceived as lgbt Q, and then
Speaker 1: sometimes if they're coming in and trying to prove their
Speaker 1: immigration status UM, it could be used against them saying,
Speaker 1: for example, you know you're not a lesbian who sigmatized
Speaker 1: because we have proof that you are once in a
Speaker 1: relationship with a man. Well, that doesn't mean that you're
Speaker 1: an also a bisexual person who may face a lot
Speaker 1: of stigma for that. I think that it's been an
Speaker 1: incredibly useful thing for us as a community in the
Speaker 1: past fifty years in Stonewall UM to fight so hard
Speaker 1: for same sex marriage the United States, and it's been
Speaker 1: an absolutely amazing civil rights victory. I often speak as
Speaker 1: a lawyer about how it's an amazing story of a
Speaker 1: political movement because going from such a deep level of
Speaker 1: stigma to relative acceptance of same sex marriage as a
Speaker 1: done deal in the United States in fifty years is
Speaker 1: just absolutely astonishing. And so it's been incredibly important, I think,
Speaker 1: and really powerful to fight for same sex marriage. But
Speaker 1: now I'm part of the community of lawyers and activists saying, well,
Speaker 1: hold on, not everybody wants to get married, and marriage
Speaker 1: is not necessarily the only family form that's worth valuing.
Speaker 1: Only half of American adults are actually married, and I'm
Speaker 1: interested in finding out more information about what those other
Speaker 1: kinds of family structures look like, because not everybody UM
Speaker 1: is getting into marriages were choosing other things, and some
Speaker 1: other people may have found other kinds of structures that
Speaker 1: work for them. So, for example, I work with platonic
Speaker 1: co parents, and that is situations in which people want
Speaker 1: to be biological parents, but rather than dating that parenting
Speaker 1: relationship on romance, UM finding a close, committed friend to
Speaker 1: do that with. And I think that's particularly useful in
Speaker 1: situations in which you might have a gay man that
Speaker 1: wants to be a biological parent, that doesn't have or
Speaker 1: want to spend hundred fifty thousand dollars on an egg
Speaker 1: go or in surrogacy process, which is how much to
Speaker 1: cost produxim in the United States right now, and maybe
Speaker 1: that client of mind, who might be a forty year
Speaker 1: old woman that doesn't want to just get married to
Speaker 1: a guy she's been dating from match dot com for
Speaker 1: three months, UM to have a baby and then get divorced,
Speaker 1: because I see those divorce clients as well, UM, and
Speaker 1: instead think, how about instead of rushing into a relationship
Speaker 1: UM to have a child, I could do this with
Speaker 1: my gay best friend from college and have actually a
Speaker 1: lot more stability in that kind of relationship. UM. And
Speaker 1: in addition, I work with U people who are doing
Speaker 1: platonic co parenting with maybe a lesbian couple and a
Speaker 1: gay couple who decide that you know, UM, a woman
Speaker 1: from the lesbian couple and a UM, a man from
Speaker 1: the male same six couple are going to get together
Speaker 1: and UM find a way to platonically do an egg
Speaker 1: baster or go to a fertility clinic process in order
Speaker 1: to be biological parents together. And then maybe all four
Speaker 1: are going to co parent, or maybe three people are
Speaker 1: going to co parent, so that it's a couple and
Speaker 1: an extra person or two couples. UM. And then finally
Speaker 1: I work with people who are polyamorous, which is the
Speaker 1: idea that you can be in more than one loving
Speaker 1: relationship and with full consensual honesty with everyone involved, and
Speaker 1: not just that you can sort of have the open
Speaker 1: relationship and swinger idea of being able to have maybe
Speaker 1: a close primary relationship UM and the only person you
Speaker 1: have romanced with, but then also be able to have
Speaker 1: other sexual relationships. Polyamory is the idea that you're at
Speaker 1: least open to more than one committed relationship at times.
Speaker 1: Sometimes in my community with my clients, that's three people
Speaker 1: who are in e committed relationship together as a triad
Speaker 1: or thruffle, or four people who are excited relationship together
Speaker 1: as a quad and UM that's I think also a
Speaker 1: really valid family form. And I work to support people
Speaker 1: by helping them create co parenting agreements or agreements about
Speaker 1: how they want to share their finances that really talk
Speaker 1: them through a lot of the potential challenges, to help
Speaker 1: them make plans in advance and make sure that all
Speaker 1: of their intentions are on the same page. And I
Speaker 1: think those conversations are actually more important than the contract
Speaker 1: you end up with at the end. UM. I think
Speaker 1: it's a really powerful way to support other kinds of families.
Speaker 1: And I am actually myself polyamorous. My husband and I
Speaker 1: have been together for twelve years. We're both bisexual, and UM,
Speaker 1: we're in a polyamorous relationship, and for us, that's part
Speaker 1: of our expression of being bisexual people. I was really
Speaker 1: tormented in my mid twenties, um, thinking I'm going to
Speaker 1: have to choose to be with a woman for the
Speaker 1: rest of my life. I'm going to choose to be
Speaker 1: with the man for the rest of life. And it
Speaker 1: was just this agonizing choice for me because it felt
Speaker 1: like it was gonna be really difficult. Um. It felt like,
Speaker 1: are you going to only eat sweet foods forever or
Speaker 1: savory foods forever? And I was like, no, I can't. Um.
Speaker 1: And for me, that's part of an expression of my bisexuality.
Speaker 1: But there is sometimes is a stereotype that bisexual people
Speaker 1: are sexually promiscuous or that we can't be monogamous, and
Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely not accurate. Um, this is something
Speaker 1: that works for me, and there are a good number
Speaker 1: of people who are bisexual who are also polyamorous or
Speaker 1: otherwise non monogamous as part of an expression of their bisexuality,
Speaker 1: but that certainly is not for everyone, and even being
Speaker 1: polyamorous does not imply sexual promiscuity. I'm somebody who has
Speaker 1: a few ongoing connections in addion to my partnership, including
Speaker 1: a woman I've been involved with for five years, and
Speaker 1: that's a more full expression of who I am as
Speaker 1: a bisexual woman. And it's something that my spouse and
Speaker 1: husband fully celebrates and I celebrate in him as well. UM.
Speaker 1: So those are family forms that have not been traditionally
Speaker 1: supported by a legal services organization. Many manical services organizations
Speaker 1: that work with lgbt people primarily work with lesbian or
Speaker 1: gay couples, you know, female same sex couples or male
Speaker 1: same sex couples, or work with transgender people to get
Speaker 1: name change documents. But I was interested in supporting a
Speaker 1: fuller range of what lgbt Q families can look like,
Speaker 1: which can sometimes um involve kinship units such as polyamorous people. UM.
Speaker 1: I think it's also valid to make connections between these
Speaker 1: kinds of queer families and people who might not think
Speaker 1: of themselves as queer or lgbt Q, such as people
Speaker 1: who form kinship networks in the urban black community, where
Speaker 1: there's communities of aunties who get together and are supporting
Speaker 1: each other and raising children. There's a lot of other
Speaker 1: really valid ways to create family. UM. You know, if
Speaker 1: my sister and I wanted to buy a house together,
Speaker 1: and raise children together, and pay taxes together. Why shouldn't
Speaker 1: we be allowed to use that relationship any less salid
Speaker 1: than two people who were in love and got married
Speaker 1: in Vegas last week. UM. I think that it's really
Speaker 1: an important conversation now for us as an except after
Speaker 1: same sex marriage, to think about those other kinds of
Speaker 1: family forms as well. So there's a lot of times
Speaker 1: that we are not even paying attention to the fact
Speaker 1: that there are bisexual people and we're not gathering the
Speaker 1: right data. So one of the things that we can
Speaker 1: do is, you know, in terms of policy, UM, when
Speaker 1: we're gathering data about people, and we're gathering data about
Speaker 1: sexual orientation, then we should make sure that we don't
Speaker 1: just have like lesbian, gay, bisexual as one category. That
Speaker 1: we really need to break that apart and understand bisexual
Speaker 1: people um uh separately from the way we understand lesliean
Speaker 1: gay people. Like there's some overlap that there's also some distinctions. UM.
Speaker 1: So that's one thing. Uh. There's also um ways in
Speaker 1: which we want to make sure that we're providing services
Speaker 1: um at that are and and doing you know, putting
Speaker 1: resources um into the needs of bisexual people. Proportionate to
Speaker 1: both the number of bisexual people in the population and
Speaker 1: the level of need of bisexual people, which is pretty high.
Speaker 1: So when we looked at like funding um at NIA,
Speaker 1: for example, on the National Introduce of Health around UM
Speaker 1: sexual Orication, you would think that based on the number
Speaker 1: of bisexual people and the need, at least half of
Speaker 1: those funds would be going to study bisexual people and
Speaker 1: services for bisexual people. And and we're not seeing that.
Speaker 1: I have to say, there's some really incurgent stuff going
Speaker 1: on in terms of UM you know ni ah uh
Speaker 1: collaborating with with researchers to recognize that need and try
Speaker 1: to UM identify kind of what the agenda for bisexual
Speaker 1: health research needs to be so that there are some
Speaker 1: really good things happening around around that. But UM, but
Speaker 1: some of those kinds of policies around what kind of
Speaker 1: data if we collect, what kinds of resources are used,
Speaker 1: And then the last thing is what kinds of protections
Speaker 1: we have for people. So UM for example, if someone
Speaker 1: is you know, speaking asylum in the United States because
Speaker 1: they're persecuted in the country that they're coming from based
Speaker 1: on their sexual orientation, and they're bisexual, then then if
Speaker 1: they are speaking asylent like they might get told, oh,
Speaker 1: we'll just make sure you don't get into a relationship
Speaker 1: with somebody of of another gender because you know, you
Speaker 1: should just say you're gay, um, because you know otherwise,
Speaker 1: you know, we we won't necessarily be able to provide
Speaker 1: those protections for you. And and you know that doesn't
Speaker 1: really work for people because they you know, they're still
Speaker 1: being just as persecuted based on being bisexual, you know,
Speaker 1: in another country. And so saying we're not going to
Speaker 1: acknowledge that bisexual quality as a foundation for your persecution, uh,
Speaker 1: just is denying the reality of their That brings us
Speaker 1: to the end of our two partner on bisexuality, and
Speaker 1: we hope that it has been as informative for you
Speaker 1: as it was for us, that we could do our
Speaker 1: teeny podcast part in chipping away at some stigma and
Speaker 1: that maybe some of you feel less alone and less
Speaker 1: confused or okay with being confused. Right. So with that,
Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure that we've gotten all of
Speaker 1: the resources from the individuals, and they are They have
Speaker 1: been gracious and sending it to me through emails and
Speaker 1: out sending it to us through emails and through social media,
Speaker 1: so we will definitely be posting that as well, if
Speaker 1: you guys will look for It'll both be on Twitter,
Speaker 1: Facebook and instagrams. Yes, yes, yes. And if you have
Speaker 1: any any works that you'd like to send us, any
Speaker 1: resources you'd like to send us, any by coos you'd
Speaker 1: like to send us, please you You can email us
Speaker 1: at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at stuff I've Never
Speaker 1: Told You and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks
Speaker 1: again to our fabulous interview amazing people. Thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Thank you for going to Twitter
Speaker 1: stalk you and social media stalk you in a good way,
Speaker 1: in a good way, in a good way. Thanks as
Speaker 1: always to our super producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to
Speaker 1: you for listening Stuff I've Never Told Your protection of
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