Speaker 1: Hey, this Sanny in Samantha and welcome to stuff. I've
Speaker 1: never told your protection of I heart Adios how stuff First,
Speaker 1: as we record this, listeners, Dragon Con, which is a
Speaker 1: convention of all things nerdum that drew over eighty thousand
Speaker 1: people last year is coming to Atlanta. It takes place
Speaker 1: every Labor Day weekend in the city, taking over five
Speaker 1: hotels in Midtown and pretty much everything in that vicinity,
Speaker 1: especially Peach Tree Mallum. I've been going for like eight
Speaker 1: years now. I've been going for a while, but hilariously
Speaker 1: not while I was a student at Georgia Tech, which
Speaker 1: is both close and is known as a geek college.
Speaker 1: I didn't even know about it. Um. But Samantha and
Speaker 1: I will be there um or we were there depending
Speaker 1: on when you listen to this, and I will be
Speaker 1: in costume either as the Winter Soldier of course. Pick
Speaker 1: up from How to Train Your Dragon with a Flaming Sword.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be cool Spider Woman with perhaps a joke
Speaker 1: about like Disney and Sony and being or something. I
Speaker 1: don't know, snap judgment with my favorite drunk purchase I've
Speaker 1: ever made the fans car right. You figured out that
Speaker 1: that one didn't you. Oh yeah, I went it showed up.
Speaker 1: I was like, what is this huge box? Oh, it's
Speaker 1: an infinite and it's a giant. Of course it is,
Speaker 1: of course it is. UM and UM. I have possible
Speaker 1: side costumes like Ellie from the Last of Us, UM,
Speaker 1: Catwoman from The Dark Night and that series. She's not
Speaker 1: in that movie, don't don't write in about it. UM,
Speaker 1: and Hella from thor Ragnarok. I just loved like black Messy,
Speaker 1: I make up. I'm in UM, but come find us.
Speaker 1: We might be recording right UM, and I'm gonna be there.
Speaker 1: I will not be dressing up. I'm going to be
Speaker 1: the person in the corner staring around in awe and
Speaker 1: probably disbelief. Yes, I'm gonna assume that's going to be
Speaker 1: my reaction because this will be the first one that
Speaker 1: I will ever have attended. And the only reason I'm
Speaker 1: going is as support an audience for you, essentially and
Speaker 1: apparently maybe a backpack carrier. Yeah, because I don't want
Speaker 1: to ruin my costume, but that that's fair and that's fair.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to be in the corner with the
Speaker 1: recording equipment, hopefully if we can get that in UM
Speaker 1: talking to different women and those who have are dressing
Speaker 1: as females, I guess essentially um and see what's going
Speaker 1: on in their heads and how they came up with
Speaker 1: their costumes. Because I will say the one thing about
Speaker 1: dragon Con just going through the parade or even driving
Speaker 1: through Atlanta during this time, there's some elaborate costumes and
Speaker 1: people put a lot of hard work and a lot
Speaker 1: of money in these things. Oh yeah, and that's my
Speaker 1: favorite part of of dragon Con is just seeing the
Speaker 1: creativity of the costumes. A lot of puns, and you
Speaker 1: know I love pun. There's so many puns. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I've got I got some good pun costs you, I mean,
Speaker 1: snap judgment obviously. But we're not only talking about dragon
Speaker 1: Con today, although it might come up some We're talking
Speaker 1: about the fake geek girl and toxic fandom at large.
Speaker 1: And this is something that I do know a lot about,
Speaker 1: and we've touched on these topics and a handful of episodes,
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure, unless my memory and Google is
Speaker 1: failing me, we've never done an entire episode on it.
Speaker 1: And there is a Fake Geek Girls podcast out there. Yeah, okay, So,
Speaker 1: definition time geek a person who has excessive enthusiasm for
Speaker 1: and some expertise about a specialized subject or activity. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I used to have like a debate about like nerd
Speaker 1: versus the work hierarchy when it came to those types
Speaker 1: of Oh, I've been in many arguments about it. People
Speaker 1: have their opinions and they're almost always different. And it's
Speaker 1: the one that they claim to be is the best one.
Speaker 1: I aloys. See, I always a claimed to be the
Speaker 1: nerd I'll always call it. Was called a nerd growing
Speaker 1: up because of my love for books and writing. And
Speaker 1: you know, see I was always called a dork because
Speaker 1: I feel like a dork is a softer. I don't
Speaker 1: know a goof ear. This is all just looked it up. Um,
Speaker 1: So we look at fake geek girl. This is a
Speaker 1: woman pretending to be nerdy to attract male attention. Uh,
Speaker 1: there is no other reason for a woman to like something, right,
Speaker 1: I have a specialized Yeah, no, just to attracting. That's
Speaker 1: why I do things. Oh yeah, that's my whole goal
Speaker 1: in life. Right. Um. Usually they are convenually attractive, these
Speaker 1: fake geek girls, because it is a real geek dudes fantasy.
Speaker 1: It's a woman entering their boys only clubhouse. So the
Speaker 1: only way that these women can exist in there is
Speaker 1: by being a sexual object to be enjoyed by them.
Speaker 1: And geeks are generally assumed to be men unless the
Speaker 1: girl not woman, by the way, is added, that already
Speaker 1: makes them an outsider. So like just the fact we
Speaker 1: have to specify peak is assumed to be male. Get girl,
Speaker 1: you have to like have that label. That means the
Speaker 1: masculinity of geek culture is just as policed as jocks
Speaker 1: are inside locker rooms, and it is a way for
Speaker 1: dudes to blame women for rejection. She's just a fake girl.
Speaker 1: And so this fake geek girl is a meme. You've
Speaker 1: probably seen it. It's um a white woman, a white
Speaker 1: young woman with kind of brown hair, bangs, glasses, and
Speaker 1: on her hand she has a nerd written on it.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of the meme. You'll see, the fake
Speaker 1: eat girl. And it's everywhere. It is everywhere. Scott Snyder's
Speaker 1: Batman number thirteen had an ad with a woman wearing
Speaker 1: a shirt that said impostor on the front, and the
Speaker 1: speech bubble said, I basically spend like all day looking
Speaker 1: at low cats on Facebook. I'm such a huge nerd.
Speaker 1: Then There's Dirk Mannings, who is a comic writer. He
Speaker 1: has this Facebook post that said, dear girls who take
Speaker 1: pictures in slutty cooling and glass is in labeled the
Speaker 1: caption nerd l O L. You're not a nerd, You're
Speaker 1: a whore who found classes. An angry man he does.
Speaker 1: There's no need for that. Unnecessary. We've got another angry man,
Speaker 1: another angry man. There are favorites. Okay, this is from
Speaker 1: Tony Harris and it's long, so I'm gonna read it.
Speaker 1: I can't remember if I said this before, but I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say it anyway. I don't give a crap. I
Speaker 1: appreciate a pretty gal as much as the next hetero male.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I even go in for some racy type stuff,
Speaker 1: keeping the comments PG for my lady's sake. But damn it,
Speaker 1: damn it, damn it. I am so sick and tired
Speaker 1: of the whole cosplay chicks. I know a few who
Speaker 1: are actually pretty cool and big shocker, love and read comics,
Speaker 1: so as in all things, they are the exception to
Speaker 1: the rule. Here's the statement I want to make based
Speaker 1: on the rule. Hey, quasi pretty not hot girl, you
Speaker 1: are more pathetic than the real nerds who you secretly
Speaker 1: think are really pathetic, but we are onto you. Some
Speaker 1: of us are aware that you are ever so average
Speaker 1: on an everyday basis, but you have a couple of
Speaker 1: things going your way. You're willing to become almost completely
Speaker 1: naked in public, and you're either skinny, will some or
Speaker 1: most of you think that you are, Or you have
Speaker 1: big boobies. Notice I didn't say great boobies. You are
Speaker 1: what I refer to as con hot. Well, not by
Speaker 1: my estimation, but according to a lot of average comic
Speaker 1: book fans who either rarely speak to or never speak
Speaker 1: to girls, some virgins, all un confident when it comes
Speaker 1: to girls, and the one thing they all have in common,
Speaker 1: they are being preyed on by you. You have this
Speaker 1: really awful need for attention, for people to tell you
Speaker 1: you are pretty or hot, and the thought of guys
Speaker 1: pleasuring themselves to the memory of you hagging on them
Speaker 1: with your glossy open lips, promising them the moon and
Speaker 1: the stars of pleasure just makes your head vibrate. After
Speaker 1: many years of watching this go down, every three second,
Speaker 1: it's around in front of my booth or table at
Speaker 1: any given con in this country, I put this together. Well,
Speaker 1: not just me, we are legion and here it is
Speaker 1: the reason why all that sickens as because you don't
Speaker 1: know about comics beyond whatever Google image search you did
Speaker 1: to get reference on the most mainstream character with the
Speaker 1: most revealing costume ever. And also, if any of these
Speaker 1: guys that you hang on tried to talk to you
Speaker 1: out of the con, you wouldn't give them the same
Speaker 1: time of day. Shut up, you damned lyar No, you
Speaker 1: would not, lying, liar face, You're not comics. You're just
Speaker 1: the thing that all the comic book and mainstream press
Speaker 1: flocked two at cons. And the real reason for the
Speaker 1: con and the damned costumes you're preading around in that
Speaker 1: would be comic book artists and comic book writers who
Speaker 1: make all that up. Okay, why is he so angry?
Speaker 1: Why isn't he just letting it go? And hey, even
Speaker 1: if that is the case, you're getting publicity. Move on, man,
Speaker 1: you should just send him a note. Man, you sound
Speaker 1: sad and you sell You've been rejected a lot. But
Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna get docs just for saying this, because
Speaker 1: I'm sure he's somebody's hero who is really sad and lonely,
Speaker 1: as he said, and it's like, oh, you're staying up
Speaker 1: for all men. Good job. I don't know how to
Speaker 1: stay that would. Sit down, Calm down, You're insignificant. If
Speaker 1: this is what you have to rant about, this is
Speaker 1: your issue in life, just sit down. Yeah, it'll be okay, dude.
Speaker 1: Just they're pretty, move all. You know. You don't have
Speaker 1: to compliment them. You don't even have to look at
Speaker 1: that costume. You don't have any of those things. They
Speaker 1: don't have to exist for you. It's fine. Just let
Speaker 1: them be. Are you so sad and lonely? Samantha's turned
Speaker 1: this around on you, sir. I'm just saying it's gonna
Speaker 1: be okay. Boo, book will be okay. And then there's
Speaker 1: Joe Peacock, who wrote there's a growing chorus of frustration
Speaker 1: in the geek community with and there's no other way
Speaker 1: to put this. Pretty girls pretending to be geeks for attention.
Speaker 1: San Diego Comic Con is the largest vehicle, but it's
Speaker 1: hardly the only convention populated with quote, hot chicks wearing
Speaker 1: skimpy outfits simply to get a bunch of golf and
Speaker 1: geeks heads to turn just to satisfy their hollow egos. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm so seriously confused about why they are so upset
Speaker 1: about pretty girls. Oh well, they're upset about pretty girls
Speaker 1: existing in their space and not being sexual objects just
Speaker 1: for them to consume. Well, it's that in part too.
Speaker 1: There's this sense of if you were a child and
Speaker 1: being a nerd was not cool and you got beat
Speaker 1: up for it, perhaps that you had to go through
Speaker 1: this stuff and it's like an exclusive club. And now
Speaker 1: people are just in their minds they just look good.
Speaker 1: Don't understand it coming into our world. So it's the
Speaker 1: whole world of I'll listen to them before they're popular.
Speaker 1: I like this before they were cool mentality. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: there's definite gate keeping and entitlement and we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about some of this more later. And also just
Speaker 1: um a geek anything that depends on expertise, to like
Speaker 1: your credentials of how much of a gee q r
Speaker 1: depends on how much you know about a certain thing,
Speaker 1: then they're automatically with that is a level of judgment
Speaker 1: of thinking. I can understand it. They're upset because someone
Speaker 1: else is making money on something they didn't dedicate themselves too.
Speaker 1: But just enjoying it. Yeah, it seems kind of harsh. Well,
Speaker 1: and also, and we mentioned this a little bit, in
Speaker 1: fan fiction, there is a people look down on how
Speaker 1: women more traditionally celebrate fandom, like writing fan fiction or
Speaker 1: making costumes, because if you look at arts and crafts,
Speaker 1: who are more likely to engage in that it is women.
Speaker 1: So women are making these costumes, and some of these
Speaker 1: men are looking down on that as that it's not
Speaker 1: true fandom, that is not true nerdom? How dare they?
Speaker 1: How dare they? And who agrees is Dr nerd Love
Speaker 1: who responded being sexy as great, as long as you've
Speaker 1: passed this ideological test that shows that you are in
Speaker 1: ded a true geek and not one of those hideous posers.
Speaker 1: I'm sure Peacock, who is the person whose comments we've
Speaker 1: just read, I'm sure Peacock means well, But what he
Speaker 1: is saying is, ladies, you're only allowed to express yourself
Speaker 1: sexually if you follow my rules. This is continuing the
Speaker 1: long running attitudes still prevalent in geek culture that women
Speaker 1: are allowed to partake in fandom and geek culture if
Speaker 1: and only if they fulfill specific criteria, and even then
Speaker 1: only if they participate in preapproved manners. The fake geek
Speaker 1: girl is the nerd equivalent of the welfare queen, a
Speaker 1: semi mythical beast who somehow ruins things for everybody by well,
Speaker 1: nobody's entirely sure, confusing their poor sad boners. Evidently nobody
Speaker 1: has ever been able to explain, to my satisfaction just
Speaker 1: how this hurts geek culture. Somebody dressing up in a
Speaker 1: sexy costume because being ogle makes them feel good doesn't
Speaker 1: affect me or my friends participation in geek culture in
Speaker 1: any meaningful way. Putting the blame on these fake geek
Speaker 1: attention grabbers for narrowly to finding the role of women
Speaker 1: and keepdom only serves to resolve the men who act
Speaker 1: as gatekeepers, insisting that the only role open to women
Speaker 1: is to be a sexual object rather than a full partner,
Speaker 1: while denigrating them for doing so. At the exact same time,
Speaker 1: the idea of the fake geek girl only serves as
Speaker 1: a way of dismissing or diminishing the presence of women
Speaker 1: and keepdom. If she doesn't conform to some arbitrary standard,
Speaker 1: she's clearly a fake, only in it for the attention,
Speaker 1: Because if there's anything women do. It's been hours upon
Speaker 1: hours of time and effort just a ryle dudes up
Speaker 1: with absolutely no payoff. That's what I'm doing here, isn't
Speaker 1: that what you're doing here? Yeah? I love rolling dudes up? Yeah,
Speaker 1: never mind, never mind, never mind about um. And so
Speaker 1: from my personal experience being in costumes at conventions, I've
Speaker 1: had men come up to me and quiz me, for sure,
Speaker 1: how much do you know about this character? Do you
Speaker 1: know every Russian word that sets off the winners soldier?
Speaker 1: Can you do them for me? Um? I can do.
Speaker 1: I can do what I would assume is not very
Speaker 1: great Russian pronunciation, but I know the general sounds have more.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm more, not more impressed, but I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course you wouldn't know. Of course you're Annie, of
Speaker 1: course you wouldn't know. I have watched Winter Soldiers several
Speaker 1: several times. I almost watched it last night. I couldn't
Speaker 1: because you weren't there. We gotta wait, we gotta do
Speaker 1: it together. Men ask if they can pose with me
Speaker 1: in sexy ways, take pictures where I'm in like some
Speaker 1: kind of sexy pose, like holding my breasts are making
Speaker 1: out or carrying me on their shoulder. Um. I've had
Speaker 1: men accused me of knowing nothing about the character I
Speaker 1: was dressed as. Men say, um that they see me
Speaker 1: every year and they know quote exactly what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: What I don't know, they know I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: just trying to have fun here. On the other side
Speaker 1: of the spectrum, I've had men act offensively impressed that
Speaker 1: I know literally anything about nerd him and immediately act
Speaker 1: as though we must have sex immediately. We've we've got
Speaker 1: a date. We were soulmates, obviously. Um. The first year
Speaker 1: I went there, an old man bought me a bud light.
Speaker 1: The first year I went to drink on and then
Speaker 1: asked me up to his hotel room a bud light.
Speaker 1: A bud light. That's not that's not the drink to
Speaker 1: go to to be like, Hey, come hang with me
Speaker 1: in my hotel room. And I'm so oblivious. I was
Speaker 1: just thrilled at a free beer that I saw someone
Speaker 1: else before. Look, if you're gonna buy me a beer,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna move on. Like that's not a promise, that's
Speaker 1: as you being dumb. Future episode. I actually want to
Speaker 1: re examine that because I've always kind of been torn
Speaker 1: on what to do anyway. Okay, UM, all kinds of
Speaker 1: one want to touching. We've done episodes about that, and
Speaker 1: you've probably heard it in the news. UM and the
Speaker 1: attitude that since you're dressed up as a certain character
Speaker 1: is totally cool, like you're no longer human anymore. They're
Speaker 1: this rendering of a character that they have an idea about. UM.
Speaker 1: Or sometimes they think it's just funny, especially because I
Speaker 1: gender been so I'm usually dressed as like a female
Speaker 1: version of a male character, so a lot of dudes
Speaker 1: think that's hilarious. Um. I've had cops make inappropriate comments
Speaker 1: and asked me out when I'm dressed in costume, and
Speaker 1: we have literally not said anything to each other. It
Speaker 1: just comes up. You know what, I'd like tack you
Speaker 1: out of date, No sir, No sir. UM and Samith
Speaker 1: and I at our upcoming convention, we're gonna take it
Speaker 1: tally of how many sexist comments we receiver over here.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do a little survey find out how prevalent
Speaker 1: that is. Because last year they did have an incident UM,
Speaker 1: and they actually had a video I think of a
Speaker 1: woman being accosted and they were trying to find this
Speaker 1: man at Dragon Con. So I know that people have
Speaker 1: become a little more aware of what's happening and how
Speaker 1: inappropriate this is. I have certainly observed so much sexism
Speaker 1: at cons and it is certainly deterred some of my
Speaker 1: friends from going. And I have seen women judge women
Speaker 1: dressed for too sexy, for essentially being fakey girls. I
Speaker 1: have friends of mine that used to do that before
Speaker 1: they grew up and realized the error of their ways, right,
Speaker 1: But I've seen women do it. That's the things like
Speaker 1: I Again, I know I've said repeatedly one of the
Speaker 1: reasons I don't go to convention like this as an
Speaker 1: Asian woman, there's a whole level of fetishism that happens already.
Speaker 1: So when you go into and for me, even though
Speaker 1: there's so many other things that Dragon con, animal is
Speaker 1: one of the first things I think of, and that's
Speaker 1: typically one of the right you know, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh no, oh no, no, we can't hang out if
Speaker 1: you're obsessed. It's one thing to have an interest, and
Speaker 1: it's the one thing to like it. But to me,
Speaker 1: there's a whole level of why you want to talk
Speaker 1: to me right, So that to me, like, even though
Speaker 1: I think it's getting less and less, but that if
Speaker 1: that is just still very very very existent. I definitely
Speaker 1: get asked out based on me being Asian and now
Speaker 1: my sexy voice just getting at um. But I'm just like,
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons I stay away, far far away,
Speaker 1: and I typically don't dress up. If I dressed up,
Speaker 1: it's going to be a funny character then a sexy
Speaker 1: character typically for me. Yeah, and caveat here. I do
Speaker 1: normally have a pretty good experience. This is making it
Speaker 1: sound horrible, but I want to say this. All of
Speaker 1: this stuff happens to me when I'm alone. Um, I
Speaker 1: think when we're together, I'm not sure that this is
Speaker 1: going to happen. Well, it's kind of like that pack mentality,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure, well we could go into that later on.
Speaker 1: But men have this thing about women being alone versus
Speaker 1: being in a pack. But sometimes it doesn't even determine
Speaker 1: in general, especially if there's a male in the group,
Speaker 1: then that kind of like or someone of the opposite
Speaker 1: sex or someone of different sex that that just kind
Speaker 1: of pulled everything apart for the right pray versus predator mentality,
Speaker 1: but it kind of is. So. Yeah, I could definitely say,
Speaker 1: especially at these types of conferences, if you're not with
Speaker 1: a group, that obviously means you need friends quote unquote yeah,
Speaker 1: m hmm. Look at that lonely winter soldier. I think
Speaker 1: I'll go up and harass her. That's what I think
Speaker 1: every time. Yeah. Sure. And another thing I want to
Speaker 1: add in here is something that I've only started to
Speaker 1: think about after being on this show is being feminist
Speaker 1: and wearing costumes that were designed with the male gaze
Speaker 1: of minds, so sexy costumes and feeling conflict about it,
Speaker 1: especially when there are young children around. Because it's one
Speaker 1: thing I've said it before. I love dressing up in
Speaker 1: sexy costumes every now that not all the times, sometimes
Speaker 1: I'm not in the place, but sometimes feeling it. I
Speaker 1: do it for myself, but I don't think it's perceived
Speaker 1: that way because our society has not set it up
Speaker 1: to be perceived that way for so long. So I
Speaker 1: worry that kids see that perception as opposed to just
Speaker 1: the strong woman who wants to dress sexy. Um. So
Speaker 1: that's in the back of my head now too. That's
Speaker 1: something I think about, well, if you think about old
Speaker 1: comics and the characters and the way women were drawn
Speaker 1: in general, they're like what the hell they're wearing? And
Speaker 1: now today's translations into our movie in you know, Wonder Woman,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like that fine balance. And that's another
Speaker 1: thing that I hope we'll get to come back to,
Speaker 1: because a lot of people have written about it, is
Speaker 1: why is it that women when during Halloween say they
Speaker 1: it's become like sexy costumes? And I think I subscribe
Speaker 1: to the mean girls theory. That is because we're judged
Speaker 1: so harshly any other time for dressing sexy, So it's
Speaker 1: like the one time we feel like we can. But
Speaker 1: there's a lot of other stuff at play. I haven't
Speaker 1: done the research yet, so if you disagree, please don't
Speaker 1: yell at me quite yet. But that's something that we'll
Speaker 1: return to. Me is just wearing all black with some
Speaker 1: kind of animal ears. That's the best way to go
Speaker 1: that you're wearing all black and then cattiers. Well I
Speaker 1: did rabbit ears one year. Comfort is key. Yes, comfort
Speaker 1: is key. So why does this whole fake girl thing exist? Well?
Speaker 1: Has always for a couple of reasons. One nerd Um
Speaker 1: has long been seen as a male alternative for being
Speaker 1: traditionally a male. So it's the alternative if you're not
Speaker 1: that buff, strong due that is. You know, when we
Speaker 1: think of the most masculine, manly man, that's the image,
Speaker 1: the sports jock type thing. So nerd m has been
Speaker 1: the alternative to that. And in our movies we see
Speaker 1: it all the time. You got the jocks and the nerds,
Speaker 1: and the nerds always get the girl. They're entitled to
Speaker 1: the girl because the male dude wrote it and that's
Speaker 1: what they think. Um. Having knowledge, being a nerd was
Speaker 1: another way to be competent. So if a woman started
Speaker 1: doing this, then does that mean nerd them is less
Speaker 1: manly or nerds are only passing as men? And or
Speaker 1: if it is defined on how much you know, then
Speaker 1: it fosters gatekeeping, like we said, and men have traditionally
Speaker 1: done this gatekeeping, and women who got past that frequently
Speaker 1: had to give up a part of their identity to
Speaker 1: do so, so be a less feminine, not this pretty
Speaker 1: fake geek girl. Um, So it can be easy to
Speaker 1: lash out against people women in in this scenario that
Speaker 1: didn't give up a part of their identity in our eyes. Um,
Speaker 1: like you have to do that. Fans of something see
Speaker 1: it as part of their identity. Hardcore. It is hardcore,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have to be there different. There are
Speaker 1: different levels of fandom. And like I said earlier, I
Speaker 1: think a part of it too is that nerdom used
Speaker 1: to come with this rite of passage of getting beat
Speaker 1: up or being isolated. So when you see someone who
Speaker 1: you think didn't have to go through that using the
Speaker 1: label you used to find solace or to find people
Speaker 1: like you to feel us alone, then you might want
Speaker 1: to lash out. And I know we read something about
Speaker 1: that in our I think our Star Wars episode about
Speaker 1: toxic fandom. Um, but I can't I can never find it.
Speaker 1: But I know John evers a bit where he says, nerds,
Speaker 1: you've inherited the earth. It's over. Well that's kind of
Speaker 1: a new joke as how, that's kind of Um. I
Speaker 1: think it was the silly movie with Jonah Hill and
Speaker 1: Channing Tatum, the Little Cut movie, Yeah one, and then
Speaker 1: they go they go back to school, but the roles
Speaker 1: of a reverse and now Joan is the cool kid
Speaker 1: who was the nerd in high school and got beat
Speaker 1: up and the jock was always Now is being made
Speaker 1: fun of which is Chane Tatum yafter like it does
Speaker 1: the flip and then like although in the early nineties
Speaker 1: late eighties, the Nerds had their own franchise, The Revenge
Speaker 1: of the Nerds. I know, it was a whole it
Speaker 1: was really creepy movie too. It was terrible. It was
Speaker 1: really awful, But they had a whole franchise based on
Speaker 1: we will of course he's nerds, really buff Nerds. It
Speaker 1: was really weird to me. But yeah, stuff like that
Speaker 1: has become a part of like the flip of the
Speaker 1: script of mentality. And as I said, there are different
Speaker 1: levels of fandom, so that's a totally okay thing. Some
Speaker 1: of us are we're all in. Some of us are casual,
Speaker 1: and it differs from fandom to fandom. And I personally
Speaker 1: don't understand gate keeping and shutting people out from fandoms
Speaker 1: that we love. I feel like I want to share
Speaker 1: it with everybody. I think you do that really well,
Speaker 1: which is also why I've been watching Supernatural. It was
Speaker 1: because of you. Essentially, you talked about it enough element cool.
Speaker 1: I'll get it because I am a maybe they would
Speaker 1: call me a poser because I enjoy it. I know
Speaker 1: about it, but I'm not gonna go all the way
Speaker 1: into that. That's your level, that's my levels. Like I
Speaker 1: will I like all the Captain Marvel movies. I will
Speaker 1: watch them, and I will not watch them ten times
Speaker 1: in a week. Annie, I don't know, Samantha. Just let
Speaker 1: me be a little bit more persuasive. I gets here
Speaker 1: and there, but like things like that, I won't be
Speaker 1: standing in line for four hours to go ride a
Speaker 1: Hagrid ride. Well occasion to do it, you would have
Speaker 1: been able to walk right on. So think about that.
Speaker 1: I was there, and I love the new text that
Speaker 1: I get from you to show me the way times
Speaker 1: of the Haggard ride, even though we're nowhere near Every
Speaker 1: morning I checked got down to two hours that one fifty,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh god, she's gonna get on a plane,
Speaker 1: like she's gonna try to get there now. Um, But yeah,
Speaker 1: I definitely am one of those. But yeah, I could definitely.
Speaker 1: I definitely see the dedication and people when you start
Speaker 1: seeing message boards and actually seeing like icons people use
Speaker 1: that what there are pictures profile pictures of whatever character
Speaker 1: they're in love with. It's pretty fascinating. Oh absolutely, I
Speaker 1: totally agree, and it's I love the creativity of the costumes,
Speaker 1: and part of that like the crafting, as we said
Speaker 1: that that's predominantly female. Um, but the creativity of it
Speaker 1: and just seeing the puns people come up with, just
Speaker 1: how impressive something is and it takes time and it
Speaker 1: takes money. You can do it cheaply, but it can
Speaker 1: be very expensive. And to just dismiss that as this
Speaker 1: isn't real fandom, right, that doesn't make any sense. A
Speaker 1: little research alone to get the precision people's the details
Speaker 1: on these people's costumes are amazing. Oh yeah, and they
Speaker 1: might even be sexy. How dare you I guess someone
Speaker 1: going to a sexy Panos I guarante. Last year, one
Speaker 1: of the costumes I remember the most, and I apologize
Speaker 1: in advance, was the sexy Penny Wise h which I
Speaker 1: just saw that movie. It was a really good which,
Speaker 1: by the way, I know this has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with this, but that whole scene with him being in
Speaker 1: the room full of the figurines and of clowns, That's
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. That's what I'm scared of. That
Speaker 1: Savantha's very specific fear they came to life. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll keep that in mind. I'll try to get better
Speaker 1: about warning you about statues that's bad, whatever they are. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I'm not down with this looking I'm not
Speaker 1: down with looking down on how other people express their
Speaker 1: fandom as long as it's not hurting anybody else. I
Speaker 1: don't get it. I think that's the mantra, doesn't bother you.
Speaker 1: If it's not actually physically taking away a right or
Speaker 1: happiness or something that's actually then why then why why?
Speaker 1: And also women have always been geeks. Just want to
Speaker 1: put that out there throughout history. I know Mary Shelley
Speaker 1: isn't an example of one of the first geeks. Um,
Speaker 1: we're just more visible now and we're taking up space
Speaker 1: and people don't like And also people are actually acknowledging
Speaker 1: that yes as a thing. We have some more for
Speaker 1: you on toxic fandom, but first we have a quick
Speaker 1: break for word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank
Speaker 1: you sponsored. So, toxic fandom. This has been thrown about
Speaker 1: our vernacular a lot lately, and it's made up of
Speaker 1: three things. Essentially, entitlement, a feeling of superior priority, and possessiveness.
Speaker 1: If that fandom has been traditionally white and male, then
Speaker 1: anything outside of that that that messes with this sense
Speaker 1: of possessiveness, and it's not limited to nerdy things at all.
Speaker 1: Music is another another big one, like K pop. I
Speaker 1: know that's come out the example of how female singers
Speaker 1: can't date because the fans are so possessive. It's like
Speaker 1: an old school back throwback when actors we're not allowed
Speaker 1: to share anything about the private lab and had to
Speaker 1: pretend like they are always open, we're never in a
Speaker 1: relationship and single, right. I heard that rumor kind of
Speaker 1: around Taylor Swift for a while, like I know, like,
Speaker 1: but then they get really possessive in the sense of
Speaker 1: Justin Bieber when he and Selena Gomez broke up and
Speaker 1: he got married, they started going after his wife like
Speaker 1: mean because they just it should have been this other woman.
Speaker 1: And you're just gonna like, damn you all let them
Speaker 1: live their lives. Why. I get it. If you don't
Speaker 1: like his music, sure, if he's a dick, sure, but
Speaker 1: because he married someone else that level and then we
Speaker 1: know the hive will come after you. Um. They these
Speaker 1: people are really scary. They're they're very passionate, and they're
Speaker 1: very passionate. Yes, and and some of these uh celebrities
Speaker 1: have had to address their fan base and say I
Speaker 1: will not tolerate this type of behavior. You're right. Um.
Speaker 1: And if we go back to entitlement that comes with
Speaker 1: a sense of ownership. Um, this might involve death threats
Speaker 1: to the creator if things don't go the way that
Speaker 1: the fan thinks that it should. Game of Thrones, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the petitions see that fairly often, actually, and I hear
Speaker 1: it with any kind of ending. People don't like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, but they make things happen, like the Veronica
Speaker 1: Malar stuff. Well, that's an example of good fandom, although
Speaker 1: that does come with the double edged sort of then
Speaker 1: you feel like you have to do fan service because
Speaker 1: they essentially made it happen, which Christin Bell actually she
Speaker 1: talked about it, Yeah, she did. Um. And then if
Speaker 1: we look at the superiority, you're better than the so
Speaker 1: called enormis or casuals to the terms they use are muggles. Sometimes,
Speaker 1: even outside of Harry Potter, toxic fandom is sometimes called
Speaker 1: protective fandom. Fans thinking that they are protecting are preserving
Speaker 1: the fandom as they believe it should be. Um. And
Speaker 1: I've told the story on this very show how I
Speaker 1: stopped playing games online because of toxic fandom. Michelle Rodriguez
Speaker 1: was booed after saying destructive male culture while on a
Speaker 1: panel called Women Who Kick Ass. A man shouted at
Speaker 1: her women who talked too much. Then there's Bree Larson
Speaker 1: the whole I think she just said we need more
Speaker 1: women and everyone was like fire her immediately. Um. And
Speaker 1: then the reaction to Marvel Phase four, which is much
Speaker 1: more diverse than it has been traditionally, people saying, oh,
Speaker 1: this is it's ruined, like three women exactly, how dare you?
Speaker 1: And then they're all white red oads. Right. There's even
Speaker 1: that cut of the Avengers where they took out all
Speaker 1: the women all male Avengers. That thinks like that. And
Speaker 1: then if you look at Star Wars, there's Daisy Daisy
Speaker 1: Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran being bullied off social media.
Speaker 1: They're both in the new Star Wars. And then the
Speaker 1: movies like, um, Charlie Staron was on Mad Max. They're
Speaker 1: pissed that she was one of the heroes, even though
Speaker 1: essentially she still got rescued. Yeah, and I'm just like,
Speaker 1: what's happening? And their whole men's men's rights movement about
Speaker 1: boycotting that movie and things like that. It's just so affling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: another thing that baffles me. Actors on Voltron received death
Speaker 1: threats because of their response to questions around shipping. So
Speaker 1: I've said it in another episode, but this is when
Speaker 1: you are pushing for a certain relationship and they thought that.
Speaker 1: I think the actors just said, I like, people should
Speaker 1: ship whoever they want and everyone, not everyone, but a
Speaker 1: very vocal group of fans said you're wrong, this is
Speaker 1: the only ship you monster death threats. Then Dan Harmon
Speaker 1: have he had to essentially condemned half the fans of
Speaker 1: Rick and Morty. Really, yes, and there it's one of
Speaker 1: those things, unfortunate things where it's been taken by men's
Speaker 1: rights activists and sort of turned into so like we
Speaker 1: talked about in cells, so that like alpha is Rick
Speaker 1: and then Beta is Morty, and then whatever the dad's name, Jerry,
Speaker 1: he's the other thing. Um. And they attacked to McDonald's
Speaker 1: and I think San Francisco some Rick and Morty fans
Speaker 1: because they ran out of the sechue sauce. They were
Speaker 1: threatening McDonald's employees. This is a cartoon, right, and people
Speaker 1: don't get mad at me and I'm like over a
Speaker 1: cartoon of a non existent place and characters. Correct, and
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm going off track. Keep going. Stephen Universe
Speaker 1: artist was forced to quit after she was threatened by
Speaker 1: fans for drawing a appairing ship that they didn't like.
Speaker 1: Members of a Sherlock panel the BBC Show were harassed
Speaker 1: based on their preference of who tops in that universe.
Speaker 1: Huh exactly. I think one of them was given a
Speaker 1: candy with needles in it. Oh my god. Then there's
Speaker 1: the practice of swatting. That's when you call swat teams
Speaker 1: on someone during a gaming dispute, and this has resulted
Speaker 1: in at least one death. That's a twenty years sentence.
Speaker 1: Rotten Tomatoes changed its review policy to prevent mostly male
Speaker 1: participants in toxic fandom from bombing movies on their site,
Speaker 1: usually before they've been seeing them. Movies with fee out
Speaker 1: and or people of color and lead roles Captain Marvel, Black, Panther,
Speaker 1: Wonder Woman, they were all targets. The New Ghostbusters, Star Wars,
Speaker 1: Last Jedi Tumbler added tag blocking and fandoms have this
Speaker 1: power because this is a group that people who make
Speaker 1: movies studios feel beholden to because that it's guaranteed money
Speaker 1: if he pleased them. And I'm sorry if that fails callous,
Speaker 1: but it's true, right um. And that can prevent studios
Speaker 1: from making more inclusive choices um or like braver storyline choices.
Speaker 1: And this is not to absolve studios at all at all,
Speaker 1: but we can't absolve toxic fandom either, especially when studios
Speaker 1: do make these decisions and the actors pay the price
Speaker 1: via social media. It's like a reverse death of the
Speaker 1: author problem when the fans are the problem, not the creator,
Speaker 1: and creators can be involved in it too, though, especially
Speaker 1: when they say a true fan can only believe in
Speaker 1: their interpretation. Yes, I believe Anne Rice is a good example.
Speaker 1: And and it's really bad this whole thing in terms
Speaker 1: of things like fight Club or The Matrix, where toxic
Speaker 1: again largely male fans took the original work and turned
Speaker 1: it into something poisonous like representative of red pill blue pill.
Speaker 1: And that's not how it was meant. I mean, fight
Speaker 1: Club was supposed to be a satire about toxic masculinity, um.
Speaker 1: But it has been usurped every every time. That is
Speaker 1: why we can't have nice things. Yes, hashtag not all fans.
Speaker 1: We're making it sound awful. They are parts of it,
Speaker 1: parts of it that are just truly terrible and frightening,
Speaker 1: and it scared some people away, and it's that is
Speaker 1: really frustrating to me. Um. Some of it, though, is
Speaker 1: beautiful and rewarding and sometimes transformative. It can give you hobbies, friends,
Speaker 1: maybe even significant others. Um. It can be a place
Speaker 1: to find your tribe. I found one of my best friends.
Speaker 1: I went up to talk to her because she had
Speaker 1: a Harry Potter folder. It's the whole reason why I
Speaker 1: talked to her and we're still best friends. To this stay,
Speaker 1: she will be a jack Oh is she? And you guys?
Speaker 1: Are are you guys the ones going to uh Orlando
Speaker 1: November Full Circle? It's it's all coming full together thanks
Speaker 1: to fan of It's a place you can hone your creativity.
Speaker 1: It can be all these things, but it can be
Speaker 1: very very toxic. It can be also a thing that
Speaker 1: is a criteria. Um, where like if they don't like
Speaker 1: Harry Potter, I'm very suspicious of you. I used to
Speaker 1: have that rule and dating kind of like jokingly and
Speaker 1: kind of seriously, like you're gonna have to either start
Speaker 1: watching it now, yeah, or we're gonna watch them together
Speaker 1: or read them. And that's just how it is. But
Speaker 1: there are a few things that I'm like, like, if
Speaker 1: you don't like this, we're gonna have to have talk.
Speaker 1: We're gonna because it's gonna be on just you're just
Speaker 1: gonna deal with it. When I'm sitting there watching all
Speaker 1: nine eight videos of it of Harry Potter, eight eight
Speaker 1: videos back to back to back to back. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I don't want your snipe comments. Don't start with me exactly.
Speaker 1: We sound like we're very We've got good criteria for dating,
Speaker 1: must like Harry Potter. Check and that's why I'm not married.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be. Uh well, we do have
Speaker 1: a little bit more for you, but first we have
Speaker 1: one more quick break forward from our sponsor and we're back.
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So toxic fandom is a big topic
Speaker 1: right now. I feel like fate geek girl, the tide
Speaker 1: is turning where most people are like, that's nonsense, it
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. There's definitely still angry men who are pointing
Speaker 1: at any sexy lady that walks by. Uh. I feel
Speaker 1: like now there's women are pointing at them. I'm like,
Speaker 1: m hm, right, So I think I think the tide
Speaker 1: is turning there slowly, ever so slowly. Toxic fandom has
Speaker 1: been up in the news a lot, and it just
Speaker 1: the fact that it's influenced these companies to change their policies,
Speaker 1: says a lot. So I wasn't able to find I
Speaker 1: we always want to end on a hopeful note. Here's
Speaker 1: what you can do. Well, I couldn't find too much,
Speaker 1: but I did see a near feed. You can mute,
Speaker 1: our block and or report toxic fans and your feeds.
Speaker 1: There's a debate around just muting versus actually reporting, because
Speaker 1: then it will remove it from all of your followers feeds. So, uh,
Speaker 1: perhaps a future episode on that one from YouTuber a
Speaker 1: LB in Wonderland. There is no such thing as a
Speaker 1: fake eat girl. There are only girls who are different
Speaker 1: varying levels of falling in love with something that the
Speaker 1: society generically considers to fall under the nerd culture category. Right,
Speaker 1: so the fake girl that's a good costume actually being
Speaker 1: a fake gig, being a real fake girl. How do
Speaker 1: you do that? I don't know. You re dressed as
Speaker 1: the meme. You gotta have some kind of clever. I'll
Speaker 1: think about that later. Um, I did dress up as
Speaker 1: a generic enemy girl. I think that's what it was.
Speaker 1: My character was generic Asian anime character, and I was
Speaker 1: wearing a school girl uniform that was just for one event.
Speaker 1: It again, I'll never do it again because I actually
Speaker 1: busted two tires and had to go to the varsity
Speaker 1: and weigh on someone to help me change tires in
Speaker 1: that costume. Oh Man, on a day that wasn't dragon Con,
Speaker 1: nor was it Helloween. If someone's birthday party who loved
Speaker 1: dragon Con and wanted to have their birthday party that
Speaker 1: trader of vix and so they asked us to dress up,
Speaker 1: and I did it because it was their birthday. I
Speaker 1: would like that to be known. Okay, you were doing it,
Speaker 1: you were acting for a friend. I understand. I won't
Speaker 1: make I hope there's no pictures. I've often felt that way,
Speaker 1: but I guess our hopeful note. I just wanna once
Speaker 1: again reiterate sharing is what makes fandom beautiful, what helps
Speaker 1: it grow and thrive and become better, not shutting out
Speaker 1: like a fandom that you'd never allowed a change and
Speaker 1: you never allow new people in will die right and
Speaker 1: it's so much fun because, like I said, I get
Speaker 1: caught onto your excitement. The reason I haven't watched and
Speaker 1: i've seen it before, The Winter Soldiers because I know
Speaker 1: how much you love it, so I know it's gonna
Speaker 1: be even better watching it with you. And that's why
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is fun even though like I like
Speaker 1: it a lot and I watched it a lot, but
Speaker 1: I don't like, I'm not all into it as you are.
Speaker 1: That you have a costume that you keep fixing up
Speaker 1: and making better each year, the arm four point oh
Speaker 1: yea um. But like that's the thing is a true fandom.
Speaker 1: If you're a true fan, you would want other people
Speaker 1: to understand it too. Yeah, and at varying levels. Just
Speaker 1: the fact that you're willing to watch the movie, that's
Speaker 1: all I'm excited. I wish we had video footage of
Speaker 1: that time you read the list of best Marvel movies
Speaker 1: and you're reactions from worst to best, And as it
Speaker 1: get gets further and further, and the winner Soldier hasn't
Speaker 1: been announced, right, number one is number one, and then
Speaker 1: it was number one. This is turning into the Winter
Speaker 1: Soldier podcast. I apologize, See this is fandom, Um, but
Speaker 1: I hope that I hope that we can make it
Speaker 1: a better place, a safer place for everyone. Yes, and
Speaker 1: we would love for you listeners to write in if
Speaker 1: you've had experiences with fake geek girl being called out
Speaker 1: and toxic fandom. What costumes are you working on? If
Speaker 1: you're gonna be at Giant Con twenty nineteen, let us know,
Speaker 1: Come find it. I'll be in all black with Any's backpack.
Speaker 1: Come find me my very recognizable black pack pack. Yep.
Speaker 1: You can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at
Speaker 1: i heeart media dot com. You can find us on
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff podcast and on Instagram at Stuff
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to our superproducer
Speaker 1: Andrew Howard Andrew, and thanks to you for listening. Deth
Speaker 1: on the Never Toldy's prodection of I Heart Radio's house
Speaker 1: Stuff Works. For more podcast from iHeart Radio, visit the
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