Speaker 1: On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and welcome
Speaker 1: to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My
Speaker 1: name is Jamie Loftus, and we talk about the representation
Speaker 1: of women in movies our podcast you're listening to. That's it,
Speaker 1: This is it? Your taps? Here y are, yeah, and
Speaker 1: here we are and here we are once again. The
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast takes a look at how female characters are
Speaker 1: portrayed in famous movies, and we use the Bechdel Test
Speaker 1: as a jumping off point for that discussion. What on
Speaker 1: earth is that? Well, I'll tell you. It's a test
Speaker 1: invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. It's a media test
Speaker 1: that requires that two female identifying characters. They have to
Speaker 1: have names, and they have to talk to each other
Speaker 1: for two lines of dialogue about something that is not
Speaker 1: a man or related to a man. Wow, it sounds
Speaker 1: like it should be easy, but a lot of movies.
Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings doesn't pass not one of
Speaker 1: the ten hours of that famous movie franchise. So that's
Speaker 1: why we're here. Yes, and we did this on the
Speaker 1: Debs episode as well, But I wanted to dive a
Speaker 1: little bit deeper into the origins of the Bechdel test
Speaker 1: than we normally do because I think it's specially relevant
Speaker 1: for this movie that we're discussing. Um. So, Jamie, as
Speaker 1: you said, Alison Beachtel Queer Icon inadvertently created the Bechdel
Speaker 1: Test in her book Dikes To Watch Out For, which
Speaker 1: was published in I think some people think that she
Speaker 1: kind of like deliberately set out to create this test.
Speaker 1: It's it's that it was. It's usually presented as like
Speaker 1: it was invented, as like, you know, like an academic
Speaker 1: paper or something. Right, it was more that it appeared
Speaker 1: in her book and then it was just like later
Speaker 1: co opted into the test that we now use today.
Speaker 1: And Alison Becktel credits the idea to her friend Liz
Speaker 1: Wallace and to the writings of Virginia Woolf, specifically her
Speaker 1: essay A Room of One's Own Um. And then the
Speaker 1: test is sometimes referred to as the Bechdel Wallace test,
Speaker 1: which Alison Bechtel is said to prefer so that's probably
Speaker 1: what we should call it also, but we don't. We
Speaker 1: simply always forget. It's simply our fault and we've funked
Speaker 1: up and we're sorry. Yes, we're so sorry. Um. And
Speaker 1: then in the comic Dikes to Watch Out for Uh,
Speaker 1: there are two lesbian characters, and the context of their
Speaker 1: conversation is that there is so little queer woman representation
Speaker 1: in movies that the only way for them to imagine
Speaker 1: a female character in a movie might be a lesbian
Speaker 1: is if she is seen talking to another woman on
Speaker 1: screen about not a man, like about something other than
Speaker 1: a man. Right, So the context of the original comic
Speaker 1: is like rooted in like Alison Bechdel's querness, and that
Speaker 1: is generally erased from the conversation surrounding the Bechdel tests
Speaker 1: of Ectel Wallace test. So the because especially for our
Speaker 1: episode today, but also all the time, um, you know,
Speaker 1: contacts like that is so often erased. We've even been
Speaker 1: guilty of it at times on this show. So it
Speaker 1: is it is definitely worth bringing up. And also just
Speaker 1: like read Alison and Bectel's stuff and watch it. You
Speaker 1: can watch it on a fucking Broadway. It's so it's
Speaker 1: and it's also incredible and good. So indeed, Yeah, the
Speaker 1: Bechtel Wallace test there, it is there, it is baby. Hey,
Speaker 1: should we introduce our guests. Let's do it. I'm excited
Speaker 1: for today. Me too. We have two guests today. They
Speaker 1: are the hosts of Coming Out with Lauren and Nicole
Speaker 1: a k a. Coming Out Pod. It's Lauren Flans and
Speaker 1: Nicole Patient. Thank you so much for being here, Thank
Speaker 1: you for having us. Well, guys, so we are talking
Speaker 1: about the movie Carol. Carol, what is each of your
Speaker 1: relationship with this movie? We should probably start with Lauren
Speaker 1: because I think her relationship is more intimate and better. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: I saw this movie in theaters shortly after I came out,
Speaker 1: which is rare for me. I do not see movies
Speaker 1: that often. But um, I have a buddy who for
Speaker 1: years and years now every Christmas we movie hop which
Speaker 1: guys don't do that pay for your movies, but one
Speaker 1: day a year we will like pay for a movie
Speaker 1: at ten am and then just see like three movies
Speaker 1: over the course. Get a beautiful tradition. Yeah, and also
Speaker 1: I feel like in certain I guess Carol isn't maybe
Speaker 1: the best example of this, but like for like Disney,
Speaker 1: for like anything owned by Disney, I'm like, I will
Speaker 1: watch this for free. I feel entitled, exactly. And Carol
Speaker 1: was the first movie of the day, so you paid
Speaker 1: for that, paid for Carol. The following movie I did
Speaker 1: not pay for it was Daddy's Home and I don't
Speaker 1: feel badly about that. Oh god, it's actually I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I'm not gonna die. It's a great follow
Speaker 1: up to Carol. Is like a Palette concert. It's Will
Speaker 1: Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg and a lot of hi jinks. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll watch him at some point, inevitably we'll do a
Speaker 1: betel Cast episode on the Daddy's Home friend. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: almost a franchise. One more and I think there's I
Speaker 1: think there's two of them. Yeah, there's still Well, when
Speaker 1: Daddy's Home three comes out, we'll be sure to do.
Speaker 1: Everything's on hold, But I did. Yeah, I saw it
Speaker 1: in theaters on Christmas with my friend um who And
Speaker 1: I'll just tell this part quickly, but he's one of
Speaker 1: he's a friend I've known since college. I've known him
Speaker 1: since before I was out and we've never had. He's
Speaker 1: one of those friends and I don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of these. But I don't know if the call you,
Speaker 1: if any you probably know it. But I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: is one of those friends. Were like, I'm like, does
Speaker 1: he know that I'm gay? Because he's not on social
Speaker 1: media that much and we've known each other since before
Speaker 1: then and we've never talked about it. So it was
Speaker 1: a very weird movie to like be sitting next to
Speaker 1: like my straight guy friend of me, like, what does
Speaker 1: he get? Yeah, I know everybody knows I'm queer. I
Speaker 1: don't even ask you that it would be they'd have
Speaker 1: to be under a rock. Nicole, what's your relationship with
Speaker 1: the movie? I actually did not see it in theaters.
Speaker 1: I saw it via a screener afterwards. That's what I've
Speaker 1: done the past several years, where I'm like, why would
Speaker 1: I pay for this when I'm going to get it
Speaker 1: in the mail? Um, And so that's what I did.
Speaker 1: I mean, my first impression of it was just that
Speaker 1: it was really beautiful. The color palette is awesome in
Speaker 1: the movie, which is something I noticed again the second time. Um,
Speaker 1: it's also shot on sixty millimeter. I want to say, yeah,
Speaker 1: so it like has that grain to it. So I mean,
Speaker 1: from like a visual standpoint, I really enjoyed it, And Okay,
Speaker 1: if I wasn't already queer, i'd be queer for Kate Blanchet,
Speaker 1: Like that's a great way that I love everything that
Speaker 1: she does, and I think that she she's like maybe no,
Speaker 1: she's my favorite actress, so she can, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: do no wrong. Um, and she's such a presence that
Speaker 1: it's just it's amazing. So except for when she doesn't
Speaker 1: pass the Bechtel test in Lord of the Rings her fault.
Speaker 1: I like to hold women accountable for movie. Definitely, she
Speaker 1: did a polish on all the Lord of the Rings crabs.
Speaker 1: I think that originally, okay, let's make this Candon. The
Speaker 1: movie did pass the Bectel test quite a bit, and
Speaker 1: Lynch went into meetings and was just like, I just
Speaker 1: am not comfortable with women speaking to each other. So
Speaker 1: that yeah, okay, go ahead. So so I mean I
Speaker 1: remember loving loving her in it and just thinking it
Speaker 1: was a really you know, beautiful film and sad and
Speaker 1: melancholic and very reflective of that time and important that
Speaker 1: we tell those stories and how difficult it was because
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we're like, especially in Los Angeles, we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, everything's fine, now you know? Um, So I
Speaker 1: think it's an important part of queer history, those kind
Speaker 1: of stories. But it didn't. It didn't like go to
Speaker 1: the canon of one of my favorite queer films though,
Speaker 1: And I didn't really know why that was until the
Speaker 1: second time around and watching it and realizing that Rooney
Speaker 1: Mara is about as interesting as a piece of cardboard,
Speaker 1: so I just, yeah, we will. But in watching it
Speaker 1: the second time, I have some issues. But it had
Speaker 1: been funny to me because like all of my queer
Speaker 1: female friends were obsessed with that movie, and I remember
Speaker 1: just being like, uh, I wonder why it hasn't like
Speaker 1: stuck with me, And now I know, you know, oh um.
Speaker 1: I didn't see it in the theater, but I did
Speaker 1: watch I knew that it had like a lot of
Speaker 1: buzz around it, so I made sure to watch it
Speaker 1: pretty soon afterward. And I similarly thought it was visually beautiful.
Speaker 1: I think it's boring. That is the most popular opinion.
Speaker 1: And I have reasons to back this up, which we
Speaker 1: will get into, and it has largely to do with
Speaker 1: the what I think is a lack of on screen
Speaker 1: chemistry between Cate Lynchett and Rooney Mara. But yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: get there. Um. But yeah, I only had seen it
Speaker 1: that once before prepping for this episode, so I don't
Speaker 1: have much of a grand history with it. But um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk more about it, Jamie, what about you.
Speaker 1: I hadn't this was this movie came out in which
Speaker 1: was truly before I saw movies in theaters. I so
Speaker 1: I didn't see it when it came out. I remember
Speaker 1: there were multiple of my aunts who told me to
Speaker 1: go see it. My aunts like all saw it together
Speaker 1: and they were just like, it's beautiful. You have to
Speaker 1: see it. Like, I don't listen to my aunts. I'm
Speaker 1: an adult. Um, my aunts loved it, but I mean,
Speaker 1: I really, I really enjoyed it. I also, it's so
Speaker 1: weird because we were talking in the car driving over
Speaker 1: about it and you were like, I think it's boring.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I really liked it. But and
Speaker 1: then later I was like, I was asleep for like
Speaker 1: ten minutes a couple different times, but then I would
Speaker 1: have to like a couple But then when I rewound it,
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's so beautiful. But I was asleep sometimes,
Speaker 1: but it was so beautiful. Should I do the recap? Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it. Okay, So it's the end of I
Speaker 1: think nine. I believe. I think that's right. That's right
Speaker 1: around the holidays, we meet Terres. That's Roney Mar's character.
Speaker 1: She works at a department store and at work she
Speaker 1: catches the eye of a woman who is shopping for
Speaker 1: a gift for her daughter, because women be shopping and
Speaker 1: women mothers. Carol and this is Carol Kate Blanchett's character.
Speaker 1: And Carol approaches Terres. They get to talking, and then
Speaker 1: Carol accidentally leaves her gloves behind at the department store.
Speaker 1: Accident was like accidents I've done before, right, We've all left,
Speaker 1: you know, earrings or something. I guided that with his
Speaker 1: jewel pot at my house. I think Jeel modern Carol. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the update, Carol leaves her jewel time on the counter. See,
Speaker 1: I like, but guys are not crafty enough to have
Speaker 1: done that accidentally with an asterisk he left it is.
Speaker 1: It's the George Costanza move though from Seinfeld. I think, oh,
Speaker 1: far be it from me, which I assume is borrowing
Speaker 1: from the Patricia George Costanza and Carol. That was his move.
Speaker 1: He used to leave something and draw his apartment and
Speaker 1: stuff that he cou But we are on a in
Speaker 1: sant anw Carol and Carol leaves her gloves. Yes that
Speaker 1: we see Carol at home and she has a husband,
Speaker 1: Hard he's the guy from Friday Night Lights. Yes, truly,
Speaker 1: and he doesn't act well enough to convince me he's
Speaker 1: not the guy from Friday Night Lights. In this particular movie,
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, it's Mr Coach. I think he does
Speaker 1: a fine job. But anyway, so she has a husband,
Speaker 1: She has a daughter named Rindy, who she loves so much.
Speaker 1: She loves her daughter Rindy. They are rich important to
Speaker 1: know that. And then there is a mention of Carol's
Speaker 1: good friend Abby, who we will meet later on, who
Speaker 1: Hard Hard clearly has a problem with. And then we
Speaker 1: see a little bit of terrass life. She has a
Speaker 1: boyfriend named Richard who wants her to go to Europe
Speaker 1: with him. She has an interest in photography, and then
Speaker 1: she mails the gloves back to Carol. I like that
Speaker 1: she's a photographer. I think in the book she's not
Speaker 1: a photographer, But then in the movie she is a
Speaker 1: photographer because she's not like the other girls. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: have I there of you read the book? I haven't.
Speaker 1: That's all right, yes that I have not read it.
Speaker 1: We'll go a little bit into the history of this book,
Speaker 1: the adaptation. I've read the Wikipedia page of the Book
Speaker 1: of Us. We would never read a none of us, um,
Speaker 1: but we we just did some research on the adaptation Chess.
Speaker 1: So Carol takes Terres to lunch to say thank you
Speaker 1: for returning the gloves. We learned that Carol is in
Speaker 1: the middle of a divorce. And then Carol invites Derres
Speaker 1: to her very large house. They hang out, and then
Speaker 1: Heart comes home and he's like, who is this lady
Speaker 1: riding night lights? He's like, Carol, you know, come with
Speaker 1: me for Christmas. She's like, no, I don't want to
Speaker 1: work getting a divorce. And then he's all piste off
Speaker 1: fight the big games coming up, touchdown. And then soon
Speaker 1: after Carol learns from her lawyer that Harge is filing
Speaker 1: for soul custody of their daughter on the grounds of
Speaker 1: a morality clause because basically, because she's had a relationship
Speaker 1: with women, she is considered an unfit mother. So Carol
Speaker 1: is obviously very upset about this, and then to Raise
Speaker 1: and her hanging out some more, and then her boyfriend
Speaker 1: Richard is upset with her. He's like, you have a
Speaker 1: crush on a woman and she's like, no, I don't,
Speaker 1: but yes she does. I like how to raise like
Speaker 1: she's she doesn't stand up for herself in a lot
Speaker 1: of areas of her life, but against Richard, she's always
Speaker 1: just like shut up. Like I was. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my, I wish I could do that, where he's
Speaker 1: just like, why don't you want to be my girlfriend?
Speaker 1: And she's like leave me alone, go away, I don't
Speaker 1: want to meet your Like she manages to do all
Speaker 1: of it showing little to no emotions, which is which
Speaker 1: is really impressive. Stop go away. I'm going to be
Speaker 1: such a Rooney Mara to her in this episode, which
Speaker 1: I can tell it like here, here's what I'm gonna say.
Speaker 1: I actually really like Runey Mara and other things, so like,
Speaker 1: I'm not this is not me like hating on Runey
Speaker 1: Mara and no, totally from a queer standpoint, I wanted
Speaker 1: her so bad girl with the dragon tattoo because that's
Speaker 1: my type and way seen that movie. So this is
Speaker 1: one of the few things that's runey Marian. But anyway, anyway, sorry,
Speaker 1: it does seem like her being boring in this movie
Speaker 1: was a choice because she can do not boring. Definitely,
Speaker 1: That's why it was very well, yeah, should we wait
Speaker 1: till the end of the Yeah? Okay, Well so whin
Speaker 1: she's more Okay, so the rest of this recap here
Speaker 1: we go. So then Carolin Torey has leave together to
Speaker 1: go on a road trip to the Midwest, and they're
Speaker 1: getting closer and closer. There's a hand touch here, there's
Speaker 1: a hand on the shoulder there, and then at one
Speaker 1: point rustling a fabric this like shots of a steering
Speaker 1: wheel and you're just like, it's also to fall, and
Speaker 1: then you're like, I'm sleepy. And then at one point
Speaker 1: to Ray suggests that they share a motel room rather
Speaker 1: than get two separate rooms. And then shortly after this
Speaker 1: they finally kiss the mom and we've been waiting for
Speaker 1: New Year's New Year's Eve, Yes, it's the New Year.
Speaker 1: They kissed during the ball drop, and then they have sex,
Speaker 1: and then they meet what seems like a nice gentleman
Speaker 1: on their travels, but he turns out to be seems
Speaker 1: he seems creepy. Yeah, I have magazines want to buy
Speaker 1: the d like, yeah, is creepy. And the movie tells
Speaker 1: you he's creepy because whenever you like, hear his voice
Speaker 1: off screen before you see him, and then as soon
Speaker 1: as you hear his voice, the camera tilts up really
Speaker 1: fast and like a startling, like, oh, who's this guy is?
Speaker 1: So you're like, we know not to trust him, but
Speaker 1: we don't know why yet. But the reason why is
Speaker 1: that he is a private snoop kind of guy who
Speaker 1: Hard had hired to follow Carol and to Raise around
Speaker 1: to record them to have further evidence in his case
Speaker 1: in this divorce. So then Carol gets on a flight
Speaker 1: back to New York and her friend Abby Sarah Paulson's
Speaker 1: character flies in to drive to Raise back to New York,
Speaker 1: and then Carol has left a letter that effectively breaks
Speaker 1: off their relationship. She's like, we shouldn't have any contact,
Speaker 1: and you know by forever to Raise is devastated understandably,
Speaker 1: and then we cut to some time later, Um, she's
Speaker 1: developing some photos she took. Carol has been seeing a
Speaker 1: psychotherapist and she's clearly trying to do whatever it takes
Speaker 1: so that she can keep seeing her daughter. To Raise
Speaker 1: makes an effort to contact her, but then eventually stops.
Speaker 1: Is at this point that Carol has had it. She's like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna see my daughter and I'm gonna keep being
Speaker 1: with women, and that's my final offer. Bangs her table,
Speaker 1: damn it. And then the guy's like oh, and then
Speaker 1: Carol contexts Raise, and then they meet up and then
Speaker 1: it's the same scene we see in the very beginning,
Speaker 1: which we weren't really sure what was going on, but
Speaker 1: now we get it. Carol asks if Rays wants to
Speaker 1: come live with her in her new apartment, and then
Speaker 1: Trace is like, no, I don't think so. Carol says,
Speaker 1: I love you, and just then they get interrupted and
Speaker 1: Terrace goes to a party, and then Carrie Brownstein is
Speaker 1: like making eyes at her there and we're like, sure,
Speaker 1: why not, okay, and then but then Terray's returns to
Speaker 1: the restaurant where Carol is at and then they look
Speaker 1: at each other and then they smile, and then they're
Speaker 1: going to be together the end. Also, Terres becomes a
Speaker 1: photographer at the New York time and and still is
Speaker 1: saying nothing, I think is she not just like I think,
Speaker 1: like a file. Yeah, I think she's like what they
Speaker 1: let girls do back just sitting a room with men
Speaker 1: and take notes of what the men said. Yes, she's
Speaker 1: got to glow up though it's better. Yeah. Yeah, she's
Speaker 1: doing well for a woman. So that's the story. Let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we'll come right back
Speaker 1: for the discussion. We're back. Yes, there's so much to
Speaker 1: talk about. Well, why don't we hand it over to
Speaker 1: the two of you and talk about the representation of
Speaker 1: queerness and queer women in this movie and how you
Speaker 1: felt it was handled and just your general thoughts on that.
Speaker 1: I well, I should say I love this movie. I
Speaker 1: would imaginally love this movie. I think I'm in the
Speaker 1: minority of not just queer women, but like anyone like
Speaker 1: I have definitely, both online and in person, been mildly
Speaker 1: shamed for finding this movie riveting because most people do
Speaker 1: think it's super boring. I've also been the opposite of
Speaker 1: King shamed for thinking it's hot, like people have active
Speaker 1: you just made it. I saw. I think this movie
Speaker 1: is hot. I will defend that later, but yeah, I
Speaker 1: think I'm in the minority. That being said, I think
Speaker 1: it's a good depiction. I mean it is you know,
Speaker 1: it is of a very specific time period. It definitely
Speaker 1: has its issues. I think watching it this time, I
Speaker 1: think there are two people of color in the entire movie.
Speaker 1: They do not speak there in service positions. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know we make the argument like, well it's
Speaker 1: that time, and they like of this stature, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: they'd only be interacting with white people, and like, yes,
Speaker 1: that's true, but also what the fuck? Um? So, yes,
Speaker 1: I think this movie has this issues in terms of
Speaker 1: queerness specifically. I think it's a great depiction. U I
Speaker 1: can talk now about what I perceive. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: One of the kind of issues that I have with it,
Speaker 1: I think, more so with Richard, is that so Terres
Speaker 1: is like a blank slate, and so I think for
Speaker 1: a lot of it's like people projecting what they like.
Speaker 1: When Richard's like I love you, I want to spend
Speaker 1: my life with you, it's like, what do you love
Speaker 1: about her? Dude? What are you? Act? Question I had
Speaker 1: to every single person who was like, actually, Carrie Brownsteen
Speaker 1: at the end, she's like, how do you know fil
Speaker 1: or something? She said, Well, I assume like everybody here
Speaker 1: is fills friends and carry Brownsteen looks a her and goes,
Speaker 1: I see why Phil speaks so highly? Yeah, back, why
Speaker 1: why why she said words that is a misstep. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're like, what do you see? I was? It's just
Speaker 1: Crazy's a photographer. She's not like the other girl. She's
Speaker 1: not like the other girl. She has a fantastic haircut,
Speaker 1: especially for that era stands out in the crowd. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think with Carol, initially, I think it's it's are
Speaker 1: a definitely like a physical attraction and like a I
Speaker 1: will call it a vibe, which I think in like
Speaker 1: that's what you had to go off of, like if
Speaker 1: there was any sort of electricity, You're like, I guess
Speaker 1: I'll aggressively follow that because otherwise I'm never going to
Speaker 1: meet anyone ever. Like That's just sort of how it was.
Speaker 1: And I do think that Carol Enterrez. I think Carol
Speaker 1: does get to know her as a person and does
Speaker 1: love her for her. You can argue that the audience
Speaker 1: has to do a lot of that work on their
Speaker 1: own of like I know, because I can think in
Speaker 1: the same thing because like we don't we see those
Speaker 1: pretty shots of them with the hand and the wheel
Speaker 1: and this and the whatever, but like the actual getting,
Speaker 1: we don't get to know Tures much less Kate Blanchet, Like,
Speaker 1: we don't have any idea why she actually likes her
Speaker 1: other than this initial chemical attraction that they have. And
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I agree with you. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure I buy that anyway. Um, their chemistry have seen
Speaker 1: much better chemistry. But like, I don't think. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's horrible, but I just to me, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I can't, I cannot Cate Blanchett is so she has
Speaker 1: so much power her character, and she is so well rounded,
Speaker 1: and there's just there is so much that she brings
Speaker 1: to the table that you're like, why this blank slate
Speaker 1: of a person. Well, I think that's part of what
Speaker 1: she's attracted to. I think Tres place everything like so
Speaker 1: close to the vest. You can argue that there's nothing
Speaker 1: underneath the vest if you like, but I prefer to
Speaker 1: think of it it's like Carol, that character. Everything is
Speaker 1: just out like it is just out there. There's no subtlety,
Speaker 1: there's like and Terres is like a mystery or you know,
Speaker 1: like she's got and some people are drawn to that,
Speaker 1: especially people who are very like spotlight on me all
Speaker 1: the time. I do think there's an attraction to people
Speaker 1: who are more like like what is she thinking? Which
Speaker 1: is a line that she said, She's like, do you
Speaker 1: know many times a day I ask you that I
Speaker 1: liked I liked her in the book. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean because Runey Mara, I think it's like thirty
Speaker 1: when this movie is filmed or something. But the character
Speaker 1: Torres and in the ages, I feel like we're sort
Speaker 1: of intentionally not stated in the movie because of the actors.
Speaker 1: But Torres is supposed to be like nineteen or twenty.
Speaker 1: She's supposed to be really young, and so I'm like,
Speaker 1: who has a personality when they're nineteen and they're you know,
Speaker 1: I had a magnetic personality when I was nineteen. Well,
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't like I, especially if I was around
Speaker 1: like an older person that I was sexually intimidated by
Speaker 1: and had a huge question and I don't know, like
Speaker 1: I I again, it's like, it's it's weird because I
Speaker 1: agree with both of you that it is is a
Speaker 1: boring movie, but they were also I I really I
Speaker 1: don't know, I like related to her with just there
Speaker 1: were moments where her personality, Like she snapped at Richard
Speaker 1: constantly because she just wasn't intimidated by him and was
Speaker 1: very direct with the people. She wasn't intimidated by people.
Speaker 1: She was. She kind of disappeared and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's how I was when I was nineteen. Hopefully I
Speaker 1: wasn't quite that boring. But there's you know, boring representation
Speaker 1: in this movie is high. Well, someone needs to represent
Speaker 1: I mean there's not enough of that. There's boring person
Speaker 1: eratre and I think this movie does a lot in
Speaker 1: that area. But yeah, no, I think with the with
Speaker 1: the with people, she's not intimidated by it, specifically men,
Speaker 1: because in that scene at night with that guy Danny
Speaker 1: in the office, he's like, oh I think like right
Speaker 1: before he kisses her and he's like, I think people
Speaker 1: are and she's like, I don't think that at all. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's energy, and she like disagrees with him.
Speaker 1: She's like, I don't think that. But then yeah, with Carol,
Speaker 1: she's very I let myself get hopelessly sidetracked, as I do.
Speaker 1: But what I was going to say, Nicole is like
Speaker 1: in seeing this, since Nicole and I both volunteer facilitate
Speaker 1: at the l A LGBT Center, and in in doing
Speaker 1: that and in seeing in talking to like so many
Speaker 1: women who are like just coming out, so especially in
Speaker 1: the early nineteen fifties, especially when she's like one whatever,
Speaker 1: I think it's like she's not a fully formed person
Speaker 1: because she hasn't reckoned with that part of herself. So
Speaker 1: I think she literally is a blank slate because there's
Speaker 1: this huge part of her like she's getting you guys,
Speaker 1: like she's as fuck like she s he's girl, and
Speaker 1: she's like it's like she's this girl who hasn't had
Speaker 1: any of that developed, so she's coming across as just
Speaker 1: like this literally empty vessel. I don't know. It was
Speaker 1: really interesting for me to watch this movie having now
Speaker 1: met so many women who are just initially coming out
Speaker 1: and like coming into themselves, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I have decided to believe that that Rooney Mara is
Speaker 1: making a really intelligent character choice, and that's what I've
Speaker 1: decided to be. Sounds like me on the Paddington episode. Yes,
Speaker 1: I definitely see that read of it, and I hadn't
Speaker 1: considered that before, so so thank you. I suppose where
Speaker 1: I was coming from it is that to me? Like,
Speaker 1: as I said, there wasn't didn't feel like there was
Speaker 1: that much chemistry on screen between the two of them,
Speaker 1: and I wondered if that had anything to do even
Speaker 1: though I think they're both excellent actors like and I
Speaker 1: do like Rooney Mara. I do think she's as we said,
Speaker 1: social network. We've all seen it, and I do like
Speaker 1: her and girl with the dragon tattoo and everything like that.
Speaker 1: But um yeah, I found her perhaps two withdrawn in
Speaker 1: this movie. But I'm wondering if the lack of chemistry
Speaker 1: had to do with them both being straight or at
Speaker 1: least married to men. I don't know exactly how Runey
Speaker 1: Mara and Kate Blanchett identified, but they're married to men,
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering would there have been more chemistry, would
Speaker 1: it have been like a hotter let being romp if
Speaker 1: they queer women? Well, and potentially I think that that's
Speaker 1: that's true, Um, I mean, and who knows, they've never
Speaker 1: to my knowledge, have never come out one way or another,
Speaker 1: if anybody can correct me on that, But um yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the problem is that, you know, with a
Speaker 1: movie like that, or like movie like Disobedience or whatever,
Speaker 1: these like big movies that we're seeing coming out that
Speaker 1: actually are starring um, queer women, or which I'm called
Speaker 1: what was the one this year with your girlfriend girlfriend?
Speaker 1: The Favorite, which absolutely loved, Like you need are they
Speaker 1: think that you need big star names and there are
Speaker 1: just almost no queer females who are at that level
Speaker 1: of their career like out at least out. So unfortunately,
Speaker 1: until either people start coming out or those queer women
Speaker 1: become famous, we're not gonna see are available, but we
Speaker 1: are are available and we have chemistry with women. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think um. In terms of going back
Speaker 1: to the initial question about like how does this represent
Speaker 1: queer women and queerness, it definitely checks a couple of
Speaker 1: boxes in that you have like the lesbian ex girlfriend
Speaker 1: who is now the best friend, Like that is a
Speaker 1: thousand percent a lesbian truth, just like you break up
Speaker 1: and then you're like, but I guess we're just besties now.
Speaker 1: And that's so immediately I was like, can do you
Speaker 1: drive my current girlfriend across the country? She's like sure, fine,
Speaker 1: incredible accommodating. Yeah, Like it's just exactly so I was like, no, okay,
Speaker 1: um that and also, um, the sad reality of you know,
Speaker 1: going back to the blank slate that is Rooney Mara,
Speaker 1: the sad reality of getting completely consumed by your first
Speaker 1: girlfriend so that your entire life is about absolutely nothing
Speaker 1: but that woman, are and wrote down. When I watched
Speaker 1: it the second time, I was like, wow, if there was,
Speaker 1: this is going to sound very medicines Like the Bechtel
Speaker 1: test is sort of a lesbian test. But if there was, like, uh,
Speaker 1: like a Bechtel test I somehow existed for just women
Speaker 1: in a just woman world and was really for lesbians,
Speaker 1: she would fail it. I did because she because her
Speaker 1: entire existence is about Carol. Granted the name of the
Speaker 1: movie is Carol. Fine, we can, we can say that
Speaker 1: this is a story, but like everything else just feels
Speaker 1: so unimportant and uninvested in. I don't even I don't
Speaker 1: believe her photography thing for one freaking minute. I'll be
Speaker 1: honest with you, like, I don't. I just don't believe it.
Speaker 1: And it's like her whole everything is Carol, and she
Speaker 1: just like, okay, whatever you say, you know, I just
Speaker 1: I don't know anything really about her outside of that.
Speaker 1: So I was like, wow, if she were a guy,
Speaker 1: this would fail so so hard, and be so stereotypical,
Speaker 1: but I hate to say it that like a lot
Speaker 1: of first girlfriend's situations are that way. So yeah, So
Speaker 1: I thought that was actually horribly accurate. The way that
Speaker 1: she talked about her photography career I thought was always
Speaker 1: I mean, because she is kind of a very passive
Speaker 1: character in some ways that I thought were like made
Speaker 1: sense with the character and otherwise where I'm like no, what, no,
Speaker 1: stand up for yourself a little bit, where like anytime
Speaker 1: someone would bring up her photography should be like, I'm horrible,
Speaker 1: I'm not good, I don't have the camera. I've never
Speaker 1: done it before, and it was just like you've been
Speaker 1: doing it for years, like please, It's like if we
Speaker 1: like I've like, actually i've only done one open mic,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm doing. I'm and then I
Speaker 1: just like buried myself alive her moments where I'm just like,
Speaker 1: you've done this before, Relax, It's fine. Yeah. I had
Speaker 1: a I have a quote from Kate Blanchett. She was asked,
Speaker 1: I think it was last year maybe in about um
Speaker 1: straight actors playing characters because it is like such a
Speaker 1: conversation that you know it's out there, and she she
Speaker 1: gave like a pretty direct answer, and when asked about
Speaker 1: Carol directly, she said, quote, I will fight to the
Speaker 1: death for the right to suspend disbelief and play roles
Speaker 1: beyond my experience. So that was like her direct statement
Speaker 1: on straight actors playing queer characters. And I guess I
Speaker 1: just wanted to get your opinions or thoughts on that.
Speaker 1: I don't disagree with that as an actor, to be honest,
Speaker 1: and that's probably it is an unpopular opinion in some
Speaker 1: spheres right now, Um, I don't. I don't disagree with it.
Speaker 1: I think that there are limits to that, obviously, when
Speaker 1: we're talking about like playing a different race or something
Speaker 1: where especially when the when the role is written specifically
Speaker 1: with a certain race in mind and has cultural references,
Speaker 1: et cetera. That is a line obviously, but something like
Speaker 1: with the queer characters. I just the problem is that
Speaker 1: you can take this argument that people are making to
Speaker 1: an extreme, so that actors are only ever allowed to
Speaker 1: play what their experience is, and then what is acting?
Speaker 1: You know, I think like and we can see that
Speaker 1: being taken to that place by certain people and casting
Speaker 1: and producers and stuff right now. Anyway, that said, I
Speaker 1: understand trying to balance it so that you are getting
Speaker 1: actors seen for roles that they hadn't been seen for before.
Speaker 1: Like it just wasn't okay to be an out actor
Speaker 1: for so long, and when you have only you know,
Speaker 1: straight people playing gay roles, people go, what what about
Speaker 1: all of our queer actors? You know? And then queer
Speaker 1: actors so for so long haven't been allowed to play
Speaker 1: straight roles quote unquote when being out because no one
Speaker 1: can see them as anything else but gay. But when
Speaker 1: a straight actor plays gay, they're like, well yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Like so that's that's where that is problematic and where
Speaker 1: people need something needs to shift so that actors can
Speaker 1: just be actors. You know. I think I'm still processing
Speaker 1: my feelings on this and have been for like probably
Speaker 1: a year now because it's come so much into the
Speaker 1: forefront with people like Scarlett Johanson and the issue, and
Speaker 1: I think I fall way more on the side of like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's not do that in terms of CIS actors playing
Speaker 1: trans characters. That to me does feel more black and white,
Speaker 1: where it's like, hey, let's stop doing that. But then
Speaker 1: but then that has forced me to be like, Okay, Lauren,
Speaker 1: if that's your feeling on that, then does that translate
Speaker 1: to you know, straight actors playing career actors. And ultimately,
Speaker 1: I think I do lean more towards what Nicola is saying,
Speaker 1: where it's like, no, that feels like a different it's
Speaker 1: the same. Maybe it's the same, like ballpark, but it's
Speaker 1: like a different look. I don't know baseball. It's like
Speaker 1: right field, like it's a different part Funday night Light. Uh. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also like I never want Rachel Vice to stop
Speaker 1: playing queer characters, like please God, So I can never
Speaker 1: firmly come down the side that I think for something
Speaker 1: like Bad Woman, like let's all fucking support like the
Speaker 1: fact that they actively look to cast a queer female,
Speaker 1: like let's all support the funk out of that show.
Speaker 1: And like, yes, I'm so glad it's Ruby Rose. But
Speaker 1: I think, like Nicole is saying, let's look to get
Speaker 1: more of that. But I don't think it should be
Speaker 1: an exclusive, should be a requirement. Yeah, I agree that
Speaker 1: it becomes very very difficult not to mention that casting
Speaker 1: starts to become extremely difficult. Well right now you literally
Speaker 1: can't do it, Like what is Kristin Stewart gonna literally
Speaker 1: play every fucking please, God, no you speaking of cardboard?
Speaker 1: I just you can't do it right that. Actually it's funny.
Speaker 1: I thought of Kristin Stewart several times while watching in
Speaker 1: this movie because I was like, this must be the
Speaker 1: thing that everybody is like, well, she's there's a mystique.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, God, like give me personality. Mystique can
Speaker 1: really I don't know, do youk is the only thing
Speaker 1: boring people have? There's so many. Have you ever had
Speaker 1: like an experience like that with someone where you're just like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what are they all about? Like what's
Speaker 1: going on? And then we get to know them, You're like, oh,
Speaker 1: they just they're bored. I think maybe I'm a runey
Speaker 1: mari apologist because I think I think I fall for
Speaker 1: that a lot. I think I'm in the traditionally in
Speaker 1: the past, I'm working on all of this in therapy,
Speaker 1: you guys taking care of it. But I think I
Speaker 1: have been guilty of the like, oh that girl is mysterious,
Speaker 1: and I'm like you got to know, and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh that girl is boring. So maybe I relate. I
Speaker 1: feel like it goes one of two ways. You you're
Speaker 1: mystique because you're either boring or you're fucked up. It's
Speaker 1: like one, yeah, what a fun journey every time, or
Speaker 1: or the strangers sucked up and yet still boring. I
Speaker 1: don't see more of that. Yeah, we're all my fund
Speaker 1: up boring people at I might be one of them.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, we need to take another quick break,
Speaker 1: but we will be right back and we're back. Uh.
Speaker 1: Speaking of back, should we talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: the back story of this. Yeah, let's talk. Let's talk
Speaker 1: Patricia high Smith while we're at it. Let I did
Speaker 1: not know that much. I knew, I knew her name,
Speaker 1: and I knew I did not know she had written
Speaker 1: this book, which was originally called The Price of Salt
Speaker 1: Um came out in ninety two. But I knew her
Speaker 1: as the writer of the talented Mr Ripley. She was
Speaker 1: like famous for being a psychological thriller writer. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: also wrote the novel for Strangers on a Train. She's
Speaker 1: a fascinating, complicated dare is a problematic yes? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So she wrote this The Price of Sault under a
Speaker 1: pseudonym Claire Morrigan two and then it was republished thirty
Speaker 1: eight years later as Carol under Patricia Highsmith's own name,
Speaker 1: and then it was adapted into the film Carol that
Speaker 1: we now know and are talking about, Um, bye bye,
Speaker 1: and the woman who adopted it, Phyllis n G. I
Speaker 1: think is as Yeah, I don't know how to say
Speaker 1: her last name, but that the woman who adapted the
Speaker 1: screenplay knew Patricia high Smith, and I think like the
Speaker 1: last ten years of her life, um, which I think
Speaker 1: is like kind of like a rare, rare success. Uh
Speaker 1: and adaptation. But anyways, back to Patricia, Yes, Carol. Screenwriter
Speaker 1: Phyllis something like that described high Smith as a lesbian
Speaker 1: who did not very much enjoy being around other women. Um.
Speaker 1: And this is something that you'll find a lot concerning
Speaker 1: how high Smith was described and considered. Um, she seemed
Speaker 1: to be a misogynist. She did not like other women.
Speaker 1: She basically would sometimes have sex with men just because
Speaker 1: she enjoyed their company more her whole. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of going. Well, the internalized misogyny is strong
Speaker 1: with this one. Yeah. She was compared to being a
Speaker 1: movie studio boss who would chase Starlett's speaking of This
Speaker 1: movie was produced by the Weinstein Company. The first frame
Speaker 1: you're like, she was also pretty racist. She was very
Speaker 1: racist anti Semitic. So the problem, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: problems like her. Uh the yeah that she was described
Speaker 1: as quote a lesbian with a misogynist streak unquote, and
Speaker 1: then there are a few people that are like she
Speaker 1: was actually you know, like she struggled with a lot
Speaker 1: of depression. There was a lot of mental illness going
Speaker 1: on as well that seemed to get worse as she
Speaker 1: grew older. A very complicated person. One thing I found
Speaker 1: out about her that I just want to with the
Speaker 1: class is that she had three hundred snails. Okay, so
Speaker 1: she had three hundred snails and one time she went
Speaker 1: to a party with a huge handbag full of one
Speaker 1: hundred snails eating lettuce. And if I read that, I
Speaker 1: was like that could so you like, did you ever
Speaker 1: read an anecdote where you're like, that could be me
Speaker 1: in forty years easily? Easily? I mean you had those leeches.
Speaker 1: I was like, she just like brought her snails out.
Speaker 1: There's your expression. You lead with your crazy. If you
Speaker 1: can't handle me with my hundreds in the bag, you
Speaker 1: don't deserve me. I mean, that's the lesbian trope. Though, right,
Speaker 1: just bringing a bunch of snails, the snails in a
Speaker 1: bag thing, true. I mean, her Wikipedia page is just
Speaker 1: it is fucking why it it's there like she's racist,
Speaker 1: she's misogynist. She wrote the first like lesbian novel ever,
Speaker 1: and she has three hundred snails and you're just like,
Speaker 1: what is I read it that she wrote the first
Speaker 1: lesbian novel with a happy ending Yes sorry I should
Speaker 1: have oh yeah, which I was definitely gonna comment on that. Actually,
Speaker 1: how like it's a funny thing because throughout launching the
Speaker 1: movie again and with an eye for Bechtel test kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, I couldn't help but feel because it's true
Speaker 1: that even though it is to the repeatedly two women
Speaker 1: in a room talking more than two lines of dialogue
Speaker 1: about things that aren't about a man, um so it
Speaker 1: clearly passes the presence of a man. A man specifically
Speaker 1: like looms over everything to the point where there are like,
Speaker 1: with the exception of the last moment of the movie,
Speaker 1: there are no enjoyable moments. It's like there's no moment
Speaker 1: where you really can just let go. Even the even
Speaker 1: the score does that right when they're having sex, it's
Speaker 1: like like big like like scary, sort of like ominous
Speaker 1: sounding music, you know which, So there's this cloud over everything,
Speaker 1: and it definitely, um, that's sort of unfortunate trope of
Speaker 1: of queer cinema or queer content where like they have
Speaker 1: sex and then it all goes wrong, like immediately happens.
Speaker 1: I did like that they balked that a little bit
Speaker 1: in the in the sense that they still had sex
Speaker 1: again that night, so it was a little bit of
Speaker 1: an f you. But then she leaves again the next day,
Speaker 1: so it's like until that last moment, the presence of
Speaker 1: a man is hanging over every single thing that happens.
Speaker 1: And granted that is the time period, but I do
Speaker 1: think that this film, I don't want to say it's problematic,
Speaker 1: but it definitely still falls in that category of like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want to be a queer
Speaker 1: person like that, like that's a it's a it's a
Speaker 1: difficult old queer story. Yeah, well I was going to
Speaker 1: say that, Um, yes, I guess this movie technically has
Speaker 1: a happy ending because we're to understand that they end
Speaker 1: up together, but at such a huge cost, where Carol
Speaker 1: has to sacrifice so much her dadaughter, so I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's not that happy. Especially, I mean, we see
Speaker 1: how much she loves her daughter, and then she has
Speaker 1: to go into therapy to continue to see her daughter,
Speaker 1: which is to see. I thought that was like, I
Speaker 1: thought that she was calling a stop tall. I thought,
Speaker 1: like the compromise that she offers is like, I can't
Speaker 1: go against my own grant. I'm going to live my
Speaker 1: life like I am insisting on visitation. But then she
Speaker 1: only saw her daughter like once or twice. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: that but my understanding is at the court or what not,
Speaker 1: the court hearing whatever, with the stenographer, whatever the hell
Speaker 1: that Yes, I thought that that happened like days before
Speaker 1: she sees to rest. Oh, I guess we don't know
Speaker 1: how much time has passed. I don't think so, because
Speaker 1: they're already selling the house. She already has an apartment
Speaker 1: and a job. Didn't happen in a couple of days.
Speaker 1: This has been a couple of months usually. I also,
Speaker 1: I think I was because I read about Patricia Highsmith
Speaker 1: before I watched the movie all the way through, and
Speaker 1: it does seem like there are elements of Patricia Highsmith's
Speaker 1: life that are included in this movie because she was
Speaker 1: a Bloomingdale's girl, and and she was in therapy for
Speaker 1: many years, essentially a version of gay conversion therapy that
Speaker 1: she very much wanted to work. So I that was
Speaker 1: how I read it, But I think that was just
Speaker 1: because I had just finished reading all this about Patricia
Speaker 1: Highsmith of like, they frame her sexuality as basically a
Speaker 1: mental illness, and then you see her in therapy and like, oh,
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem good, but so not specific, I don't.
Speaker 1: I guess what I really like about this movie is
Speaker 1: that both characters, both Terres and Carol, are like unapologetic
Speaker 1: about their sexuality and they're not keeping it a secret
Speaker 1: from at least the people around them. Like Richard knows
Speaker 1: about her crush on Carol. Harge knows also Hard what
Speaker 1: is that name? Hard Arch the whole first time I
Speaker 1: saw also what is that name? Though? But um, so
Speaker 1: Harge knows about Carol, And yes, at the end, she
Speaker 1: says like, I'm not going to go my grain. Here's
Speaker 1: my final offer. I want visitation rights. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean she doesn't have custody of her daughter, hard soul custody,
Speaker 1: and so we know that Hard just like a dysfunctional alcoholic.
Speaker 1: So her daughter is not better off because we see
Speaker 1: Carol it. You know, she's a great mom and she
Speaker 1: loves her daughter, and she brusses her hair so much.
Speaker 1: I was just like, if you have to clean up
Speaker 1: your daughter's brush every day, my friend, your daughter is
Speaker 1: going bold but hey, baldest woman in charge, true grendy
Speaker 1: will someday be in charge. Um. But yeah, so, I
Speaker 1: mean it makes me appreciate the era that we live
Speaker 1: in now, which is still not great. But at least,
Speaker 1: you know, homosexual audio isn't considered a mental illness anymore,
Speaker 1: you know all that. So I like that they're unapologetic
Speaker 1: about their sexuality, but it still comes at at a
Speaker 1: great cost, especially for Carol and her daughter, So it does.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so it is hard to feel happy. I
Speaker 1: didn't feel happy at the end of that movie. That's
Speaker 1: for sure. It's not very uplifting. It's just not. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I also, I mean, and again part of this goes
Speaker 1: back like I will, I've promised I will cease and
Speaker 1: desists soon on this point. But like I also look
Speaker 1: at it into my for that girl, like a like
Speaker 1: for her. I mean, like I look at you know,
Speaker 1: the relationship with Abby, I totally understand, like that that
Speaker 1: friendship and that closeness and all of that sacrificing for
Speaker 1: that relationship I really get. And sacrificing just for who
Speaker 1: you are, regardless of who you're with or if you're
Speaker 1: with anybody, I totally get. But like for that girl also,
Speaker 1: And I just have to say this because this is
Speaker 1: sadly on on brand for lesbians. Um, but the like, oh,
Speaker 1: we went on a two week trip together and then
Speaker 1: we didn't speak and now do you want to move in?
Speaker 1: Is like such a lesbian and that's just like normal.
Speaker 1: Oh god, well Carol, so much like I remember the
Speaker 1: first time that I saw this in the theaters, I
Speaker 1: remember being so cringe e about how like that first
Speaker 1: scene where they have food and she's like, would you
Speaker 1: like to visit me this Sunday? Like it's like, what
Speaker 1: are you doing? You just learned you just asked her
Speaker 1: first name like seconds before. So yeah, there's definitely there's
Speaker 1: a lot of cringe worthy lesbian stereotype. I didn't feel
Speaker 1: as predator worry is sort of like the predatory romance
Speaker 1: that you see in like Debs, but there's still like
Speaker 1: a huge power dynamic imbalance between the two of them
Speaker 1: where Carol is much wealthier, she is older, and she's
Speaker 1: more sexually experienced. And then she and and also in
Speaker 1: in this movie, and this was like an adaptation change
Speaker 1: that I when I like figured out that had been changed,
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, I don't really like that they
Speaker 1: made her a virgin in this She not in the book. No,
Speaker 1: she had been having said she had been having unfifilling
Speaker 1: sex with Richard, and like there was more context for it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then I feel like they almost do that character
Speaker 1: kind of a disservice by being like, you know, she's
Speaker 1: just floating around like I don't know, and it's not
Speaker 1: a Madonna horror thing, but that choice is just sort
Speaker 1: of indicative of like washing that character and making her
Speaker 1: even you know, because it's like if she not saying that,
Speaker 1: if you're a virgin, you don't have any life experience,
Speaker 1: but it just having that character have some experience going
Speaker 1: into that relationship would have made me feel more comfortable
Speaker 1: with the relationship happening, because you're like, the power dynamics
Speaker 1: are a little off, and I mean we're sort of
Speaker 1: led to believe that it's brought up a bunch of times,
Speaker 1: even though she still has her own apartment in granted village,
Speaker 1: but she's a shop girl. She's young, she can't really
Speaker 1: afford to pursue her passion. Like she's in a very
Speaker 1: very different position as Carol. And and I don't know,
Speaker 1: I was trying to picture movies with I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a ton of movies about hetero relationships where there's a
Speaker 1: man who's much older wooing a much younger woman, and
Speaker 1: this is not that movie, but there are elements of
Speaker 1: that where it's like that should have been a discussion.
Speaker 1: And I feel like Abbey is the only one who
Speaker 1: really brings it up. Is like she's so like she
Speaker 1: is the most grounded, like she's fucking great. But I
Speaker 1: will say with Carol Terrez, because I did watch it
Speaker 1: through a twenty nineteen lens, it's like a hundred as
Speaker 1: far as I could tell, it's fully consent based, like
Speaker 1: she she's asking aggressively, but she doesn't do anything without
Speaker 1: being like is this okay? Would you like to do this?
Speaker 1: Like blah blah blah. And with the sex scene, it's
Speaker 1: like Terres is the one who's like taking and it's
Speaker 1: like never implied that they would have any reason to
Speaker 1: feel unsafe around each other too, which is like makes
Speaker 1: a huge difference. And as far as I could tell,
Speaker 1: Carol never holds anything over to res in terms of like,
Speaker 1: well I have more money than you, or I'm like
Speaker 1: like she never like uses that like the imbalance of
Speaker 1: power to her advantage. As far as I could it
Speaker 1: just kind of unacknowledged. It's just like a thing that exists, right,
Speaker 1: I don't know. It would just be nice to see
Speaker 1: more representation in mainstream movies of queer women where it
Speaker 1: wasn't such an imbalance of power. It would be nice
Speaker 1: to see a movie about two queer women where no
Speaker 1: one has to make a huge sacrifice. You know. It
Speaker 1: would be nice to see more queer women of color.
Speaker 1: It would be nice to see more you know, trans
Speaker 1: and non binary people in mainstream movie. And I think
Speaker 1: that I've see people asking for a lot on on
Speaker 1: queer Twitter, as it were, is like, hey, can we
Speaker 1: get more movies where both women are already out and
Speaker 1: that's not like realizing or comic terms is not an
Speaker 1: element of the plot um And I think that would
Speaker 1: be great that please. Indeed, I wanted to talk about how,
Speaker 1: just briefly about how the men are kind of presenting
Speaker 1: in this movie because each and every single male character
Speaker 1: who we get to know even the slightest bit is horrible.
Speaker 1: Eric I kind of appreciated how the worst they were.
Speaker 1: I mean there was I don't know, yeah, what did
Speaker 1: everyone think about the men? I just I was just like, yeah, fine,
Speaker 1: Mr Football is mad. He what he's like often drunk,
Speaker 1: He's usually full of rage and jealousy. He's very spiteful
Speaker 1: when it comes to a bunch drunkenly following I think
Speaker 1: one of the things and I and I am obviously
Speaker 1: the minority in those, but I really like Kyle Chandler
Speaker 1: as a writer. And I also loved Friday. It's like, yes,
Speaker 1: it's so good if if anybody hasn't seen it water
Speaker 1: and like I hate football, So it's not it's not
Speaker 1: about that anyway, but partly where I think like the
Speaker 1: disservice to the men in this movie, and also just
Speaker 1: honestly the story in this movie is that we don't
Speaker 1: get to see even a flashback and even in anything,
Speaker 1: any part of Carol and Harje's relationships, so like it
Speaker 1: is very difficult, I think, to imagine those two people
Speaker 1: being together other than they're both wealthy and good looking.
Speaker 1: I guess, like I mean, really, it's very difficult to
Speaker 1: imagine it because we see so little of any of
Speaker 1: the love left between them, and I don't know I
Speaker 1: would have liked to see because she says, like her
Speaker 1: big last line is she's leaving that meeting or with
Speaker 1: the loyal like the best best scene in the movie,
Speaker 1: I think, but the exact perfect. She's so good, but
Speaker 1: like she says something, you know, uh, then it will
Speaker 1: get ugly or it'll get ugly and we're not ugly
Speaker 1: people or something like that. It's like it's some something
Speaker 1: along those lines, and I guess I just wanted to
Speaker 1: be like, wow, I would have really liked to see
Speaker 1: him not being ugly then at some point or and
Speaker 1: like some semblance of like real good guy nous about
Speaker 1: him that I can imagine, he asked, but isn't there
Speaker 1: because you can see his face and he seems to
Speaker 1: be coming to an understanding or he he seems to
Speaker 1: be like, you're right, Carol, like but that's not who
Speaker 1: he understood him to be previously he was completely like bullheaded,
Speaker 1: and I kind of do I have sort of have
Speaker 1: a different take again, Carol Apologist over here. But I well,
Speaker 1: what I love about all the men in this movie
Speaker 1: is they're like so oh fish, which to me is
Speaker 1: like hilarious, like they all fall down and something like um.
Speaker 1: But I and I'm framing it in that era. I
Speaker 1: don't think either of those guys are like Richard's a dick,
Speaker 1: But I don't think either of those guys are like
Speaker 1: super bad guys, Like I think this is a guy who,
Speaker 1: like his wife, has had at least one affair that
Speaker 1: he knows about, Like this is a guy he never
Speaker 1: I feel like in a different movie, we definitely would
Speaker 1: have gone like a smack or like a puncher, because
Speaker 1: it's the guys drunk and I remember watching it originally
Speaker 1: that's where I thought that was going. But he's the
Speaker 1: one who falls down, like he's definitely too handsome with her,
Speaker 1: But I don't. I think he is shown to be
Speaker 1: like this old fish, bumbling like this isn't how this
Speaker 1: is supposed to work kind of guy. But I don't
Speaker 1: think he's evil, even Richard. I don't think it is
Speaker 1: like terrible, Like I love that line where he's like
Speaker 1: you made me buy tickets, Like he's this dude it's like,
Speaker 1: what the fuck, Like we were thick the moment that
Speaker 1: I did really like, I was like, oh that she
Speaker 1: kind of did him dirty on that one where he
Speaker 1: was yeah, because she she's been saving up money to
Speaker 1: go on vacation with him, and she's like, actually, I
Speaker 1: just met this really kind of suck, like I do. Actually,
Speaker 1: And I I often am the one who's feeling bad
Speaker 1: for men in queer movies because sometimes I do think,
Speaker 1: especially in lesbian films, they get like the short end
Speaker 1: of the stick and are shown to be just like
Speaker 1: these like bumbling idiot oaths like whatever. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: and especially as like the resident bisexual in the room,
Speaker 1: I'm like, come on, not all guys are like yeah,
Speaker 1: like like this, you know, and it actually And I
Speaker 1: also think that stories are more interesting when you have
Speaker 1: more realistic portrayals of characters, so that people aren't painted
Speaker 1: as just bad or good and there is a little
Speaker 1: bit more ambiguity, because it makes it more difficult for
Speaker 1: the characters to make decisions when you know you're dealing
Speaker 1: with two good people versus one good and one bad.
Speaker 1: You know. Um, So I think that they could have
Speaker 1: done a little bit better of a job with the
Speaker 1: men in this making them slightly more multidimensional. The one
Speaker 1: guy who I really liked, the guy with the accent
Speaker 1: who like, yeah, the one who tries to Danny's like
Speaker 1: the one, but of course because he's like the film kid,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like production, I don't think
Speaker 1: we see enough that really exists in real life where
Speaker 1: it's like the guy who's into the girl and like
Speaker 1: tries to kiss her, and then it's like, oh my bad,
Speaker 1: you're queer, you're not into it, Like no, I'm going
Speaker 1: to be your best friend and help you paint your partner.
Speaker 1: And he's just like so chilling cool, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I think you really liked this lady, and she's like, no,
Speaker 1: I don't. And if he's like come on, girl, he's
Speaker 1: like a really good dad. But also he knew that
Speaker 1: she had a boyfriend, Richard at the time and tried
Speaker 1: to kiss her. Yeah, he's he's shy friends and to
Speaker 1: like yeah, but I think once he realizes, like, and
Speaker 1: that's a problem in and of itself, he should treat
Speaker 1: her like a person, even if she's straight and not
Speaker 1: into him. But at least once that guy realizes like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's not into it. He's not like but I forever
Speaker 1: Like he's like he helps her get a job at
Speaker 1: the time, Yeah, yeah, he's he does come through for
Speaker 1: her quite a bit, that he should have tried to
Speaker 1: kiss her appropriately fair. I even afterwards was like, wait,
Speaker 1: does she have a boyfriend? Because she makes so like
Speaker 1: blase and noncommittal about Richard that like he probably is
Speaker 1: like are they even dating? I mean, I, as the
Speaker 1: audience member, was like, are they even dating? Richard? Thinking
Speaker 1: that they're dating, which totally happened, you know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: were You're just like are you I don't Yeah. Something
Speaker 1: about the Harsh character that I think that that, again
Speaker 1: was a weird adaptation thing because as far as I
Speaker 1: can tell, in the book, he has mentioned, but he's
Speaker 1: barely in it. He's not a main character at all.
Speaker 1: So he his character's part was really beefed up for
Speaker 1: the movie. And I mean, it's it's weird. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like what everyone was saying. It seems like the
Speaker 1: fact he's not like a monster out right. But I don't, like,
Speaker 1: I don't understand why as much as I love Mr
Speaker 1: Football's pratfalls and being like why you not love me
Speaker 1: no more? Like being pissed and litigious whatever male villain
Speaker 1: tropes are employed there. I like you very if you're
Speaker 1: gonna like beef up that part and you want to
Speaker 1: make it like a nuance complicated movie, show that he's heartbroken,
Speaker 1: show that he's confused, like show that he doesn't like
Speaker 1: in less of a broad strokes way, because that almost
Speaker 1: felt like out of step with what the movie was
Speaker 1: trying to do with different relationships, where like Caroline Abbey's
Speaker 1: friendship is so nuanced and subtle and cool, and like
Speaker 1: most of the ways that people relate in this movie
Speaker 1: seemed to be going for that subtlety. But it's weird,
Speaker 1: like hardest character is like kind of broad for this
Speaker 1: movie where he's just like mad alcoholic husband, And I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't even know where I fall on it, because
Speaker 1: I'm like, I mean, I just if they were going
Speaker 1: to use him on screen that much, I wish it
Speaker 1: had been in a way that was a little more
Speaker 1: nuanced in servicing the story instead of just him becoming
Speaker 1: a litigious villain. Yeah, I agree with, especially if she's
Speaker 1: going to suggest at the end that that's not who
Speaker 1: he is deep down. And yeah, like you were saying
Speaker 1: Nichols is like, well, we've only seen him drunk and angry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean, like I get the it seems as
Speaker 1: though what they were going for maybe um with the
Speaker 1: men in these women's lives, right, So, Richard and Hard
Speaker 1: is that when men are heartbroken, they get angry, like
Speaker 1: and that is how they deal with being heartbroken is
Speaker 1: through anger and not vulnerability. I mean because like he shows,
Speaker 1: Hard shows up at Abbey's and like when he has
Speaker 1: nothing left to say, when Abbey's like stone walled him
Speaker 1: and been like she's not here, and he's like, but
Speaker 1: I love her, and she's like, I can't help you
Speaker 1: with that. And I think that those simple two lines
Speaker 1: say everything about the men in this movie in so
Speaker 1: many ways, where it's like it is not the women's
Speaker 1: responsibility to cater to the men's feelings, you know, like
Speaker 1: you guys have fallen in love of your own accord.
Speaker 1: Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't, and we
Speaker 1: can apologize for the things where we legitimately are wrong
Speaker 1: and have hurt you, but also then like it's up
Speaker 1: to you to be a big boy and take care
Speaker 1: of yourself without being destructive. And I think both of
Speaker 1: those men are coming from a point of view where
Speaker 1: they're like if A, then B. They're like, well, if
Speaker 1: I love you, then that you must like those guys
Speaker 1: gets a feeling of ownership and entitlement. And I mean,
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties speak about an era where men
Speaker 1: did not know how to process their feelings, like we're
Speaker 1: not encouraged to. I mean, that's not even their fault entirely,
Speaker 1: you know, they were not That was weakness. So yeah, iusly,
Speaker 1: I wish it were a little clearer that. Like in
Speaker 1: the book, it seems like it's clearer that the whatever villain,
Speaker 1: if there is a villain of this story, is the
Speaker 1: culture that they're living in. It doesn't allow them to
Speaker 1: be here they are. But in this movie, I feel
Speaker 1: like they almost take the shortcut of being like it's
Speaker 1: the guys. That's a great point. It's such an insular movie.
Speaker 1: It's one of those movies where it's like is this
Speaker 1: a stage flight where it's just like you don't really
Speaker 1: get a sense of the outside world at all. It's like,
Speaker 1: that's my ride, I got to ride a giant drama.
Speaker 1: Like everything that we're saying about, oh at that time,
Speaker 1: it's just because we know that, Like you don't see
Speaker 1: a lot of like the outside world pressuring this and
Speaker 1: that it's like we're inferring that because all of us
Speaker 1: know what it was like to be queer in ninety
Speaker 1: But you're right that it's it is one of those
Speaker 1: super insular movies where we're just really seeing the characters
Speaker 1: we're seeing and there's not a lot of like different
Speaker 1: people running around being like I don't like Wars and
Speaker 1: then they just like cross the street and we never
Speaker 1: see him again. People just did that same players talking
Speaker 1: about how they don't like Career Evil. Um, it is
Speaker 1: basically just like it's a it's a close knit sort
Speaker 1: of film. So everything that that we've been saying about,
Speaker 1: like oh, the time period and stuff, we're not really
Speaker 1: shown that. We just we know that or we hear
Speaker 1: also like everybody in this film has extremely fine tuned gaitar,
Speaker 1: which I like don't understand. I mean, Richard, like Richard
Speaker 1: has really no reason to believe that Terres has a
Speaker 1: rush on Carol, but he like picks it up on
Speaker 1: it right away, says it like it's not a thing,
Speaker 1: you know, like it is. It is very weird. And
Speaker 1: then like like every random lesbian the trees runs into
Speaker 1: is like staring at her from across the room because
Speaker 1: they're all like I smell you, like like random, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I know they clogged her, like yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And also everybody who has gaydar just stairs like is
Speaker 1: like just blatantly there that's my move. But I mean
Speaker 1: it's it is a little bit. It's a little silly
Speaker 1: and on the nose obviously, but also because like there
Speaker 1: was a whole code. It was like the handkerchief road
Speaker 1: I think yeah for gay men where you would like
Speaker 1: wear a certain color handkerchief in your back pocket to
Speaker 1: show the a you were queer, but like be what
Speaker 1: like type of queer you are and what you were
Speaker 1: into so other men could pick up on it. So
Speaker 1: it's like guys, like, if gaydar were really as good
Speaker 1: as it's shown in Carol, no one would have needed
Speaker 1: the handkerchief coat. It's just it was a little we're
Speaker 1: gonna have to develop it them because they're clothes don't
Speaker 1: have pockets that the glass ceiling. It was like, we
Speaker 1: simply cannot carry the unfair standards of that are placed
Speaker 1: on women. Did you ever have this, uh that system
Speaker 1: in high school where the color of like rubber bracelet
Speaker 1: you were wearing was like indicative of whether you were
Speaker 1: a virgin or not. That was a big thing I
Speaker 1: heard about that. I feel like that was I thought
Speaker 1: that was like an urban legend, but maybe not like
Speaker 1: that was a news story where they're like, they're called
Speaker 1: bracelets kids. There was I would wear. I would wear
Speaker 1: a red bracelet my software, which you should never wear
Speaker 1: the braislet that means you're a virgin. But I didn't
Speaker 1: wear that. And then I, even when I was still
Speaker 1: a virgin, I swapped it out because I'm like and
Speaker 1: then every day I would look at my bracelet and
Speaker 1: be like, wow, that's so intensive. There was. There was
Speaker 1: an intense bracest when I was in high school. I uh,
Speaker 1: the cartilage of my right ear pierce and everyone's like,
Speaker 1: if you get your right your pierce, that means you're gay.
Speaker 1: And that's like what, I've never heard that before. But
Speaker 1: I also didn't care. I was like, I don't give
Speaker 1: a funk what people think my sexuality is. But um, yes,
Speaker 1: there's been codes. I guess what I enjoyed about this
Speaker 1: movie because a lot of the the tension does end
Speaker 1: up because there's no sort of external cultural tension in
Speaker 1: terms of like society hate square people in this movie
Speaker 1: that we see the tension then derives from largely the
Speaker 1: male characters in the movie and the fact that they're
Speaker 1: I mean, and this is not to say that all
Speaker 1: men are horrible, but since most movies are about how
Speaker 1: awesome men are and how freaking cool they are, and
Speaker 1: also movies where men are the focus, if there is
Speaker 1: a female character, she's often presented as an obstacle in
Speaker 1: some way, much of the way men are presented as
Speaker 1: obstacles in this movie. So it was kind of nice
Speaker 1: to see that switch, sure, but I like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's like, at the end of I'm just
Speaker 1: going to be split on on this because in one way,
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's kind of lazy movie shorthand to just
Speaker 1: be like, this character symbolizes all oppression everywhere and most
Speaker 1: people are actually really chill. But it's also like, I
Speaker 1: I don't dislike the man Haiti tropes that are employed
Speaker 1: by this movie through those characters because you're like, well,
Speaker 1: you don't really get to see them very much. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I think for me, I wrote, at times it's fun
Speaker 1: and at other times devastating and uncomfortable to see men
Speaker 1: constantly barking up the wrong treeze in this movie that
Speaker 1: way generally generally, even like that's it is that you
Speaker 1: go back and forth and be like, ha, that's funny
Speaker 1: to be like, I don't feel good. Richard especially is
Speaker 1: such a dufe Like that part where Carol is picking
Speaker 1: up Terres and Richard's all like, Richard, hard not to
Speaker 1: meet you, and and Carols like, oh, speaks very highly
Speaker 1: of you, and he's like, oh, well that's swell, and
Speaker 1: he's immediately like talking about a beard. Yeah, he is
Speaker 1: the guy from Obvious Child too, Yeah, like obscured by
Speaker 1: a hat. For most of time, that's all I can
Speaker 1: see in those is like that, and the guy from Girls,
Speaker 1: and I'm like perfect casting truly, Yeah, he's peaked casting. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Here's something we don't often see is women eating in
Speaker 1: a movie which we see women eat quite a bit,
Speaker 1: and we also see women driving in a way that
Speaker 1: it's not like them, like I just accidentally got on
Speaker 1: the freeway and I'm gonna crash, So I think it's
Speaker 1: not like correct exactly. This movie normalizes period peace, that's right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it normalizes women driving and eating. So that's my
Speaker 1: hot take. Another point I saw being made about this.
Speaker 1: It was like the cinematography, which we've I mean, it
Speaker 1: is so beautiful that you're sleeping, but the like absence
Speaker 1: of perceived male gaze this movie, which is funny because
Speaker 1: it's the cinematographer is a man. As the director, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Edward Edward Lachman, who has a pretty stellar record of
Speaker 1: removing or at least I don't know, compartmentalizing the male
Speaker 1: gaze for the movies he's worked on. He also did
Speaker 1: the He did other Todd Haynes movies. He did Far
Speaker 1: from Heaven Um, he did the Virgin Suicides. He did
Speaker 1: a bunch of like very female focused movies that concerned
Speaker 1: like women's bodies. And I don't know, I mean did that.
Speaker 1: I mean that worked for me. I thought it was
Speaker 1: very There is nothing that I felt was like objectifying
Speaker 1: or like overly you know, like sexualizing women. You know,
Speaker 1: we see the sex scene, but it felt very tastefully done. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I loved it. And you know how you were saying, like, oh,
Speaker 1: you see in the car, like the random shot of
Speaker 1: the steering wheel or like that kind of thing. I
Speaker 1: think and again I haven't read the book, but I
Speaker 1: know that the book it's based on is it's the
Speaker 1: third person, but it's all from her as this point
Speaker 1: of view, and I think that this movie is like
Speaker 1: shot almost entirely. Certainly any scenes she's in I read
Speaker 1: as her point of view, which is why I think
Speaker 1: it's like you get these little chunks of like she's
Speaker 1: looking at like there's a lot of like Cate Blanchet's mouth,
Speaker 1: Like she's looking at her lips, or she's looking at
Speaker 1: her hand. Are these things which to me I read
Speaker 1: as her like sort of discovering her attraction for her.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I thought it did a great job as
Speaker 1: being like, this is what this woman's experience is, and
Speaker 1: you're seeing like little glimpses of it. And the color
Speaker 1: palette was really reflective of that too, because it was
Speaker 1: largely red and green, which also was helpful because it
Speaker 1: was around Christmas time, so you had that, but it
Speaker 1: was like red, green and gold sometimes as well, but
Speaker 1: like red and green were primary, and Cate blanche it
Speaker 1: was like almost always wearing something red um and certainly
Speaker 1: in the first half of the movie when like Ruoney
Speaker 1: mar Is discovering her um and then like Abby and
Speaker 1: Rooney Mara and and then sometimes Cape Blanchet two are
Speaker 1: often wearing green or are are framed in green. So
Speaker 1: for you know whatever, more of like what is it
Speaker 1: like a obsession or there's like but there's a danger
Speaker 1: Green is also a danger color, yeah, to which I
Speaker 1: think was pretty cool. Like when you see Abby pull
Speaker 1: up and she's got the green on, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: danger because really she does represent like a very dangerous
Speaker 1: part of Cape Blanchet's life. Yeah, So yeah, anyway, hopefully,
Speaker 1: but I mean, yeah, the lack of male gay is
Speaker 1: from the cinematographer. The director is a man, Todd Haynes,
Speaker 1: but he's considered, you know, he's an out gay director.
Speaker 1: He's considered a pioneer of the new queer cinema movement
Speaker 1: that emerged in the early nineties. Um, the screenwriter is
Speaker 1: a queer woman. A lot of the producers are women,
Speaker 1: also Harvey and Bob Weinstein. Oops, but when you have
Speaker 1: a movie that's coming largely from either a female or
Speaker 1: queer perspective or both, we're not surprised that it's handled
Speaker 1: a bit better. And and then adapting from from a
Speaker 1: book that was also written by a queer woman, where like,
Speaker 1: we have so many examples I always like jumped straight
Speaker 1: to carry of, like, why is this like very famous
Speaker 1: movie depicting women so poorly? It's oh, because uh straight
Speaker 1: man was writing about teenage girls, and that was adapted
Speaker 1: by uh screenwriter who is a straight man writing about
Speaker 1: teenage girls seen through the lens of a straight man
Speaker 1: leering at teenage girls, And that's why it's fucked up
Speaker 1: like this, this movie manages to more or less avoid
Speaker 1: most of that. And and then I think sort of
Speaker 1: with the cinematography, they it's like if you had to
Speaker 1: choose male cinematographer, I mean I would personally be like, oh,
Speaker 1: wouldn't it have been great if there was a female
Speaker 1: cinematoxxer in this um or a queer female cinematographer. But
Speaker 1: if if there had to be a man, this seems
Speaker 1: like this was the man for that job. So that's
Speaker 1: how I felt about the director too. Yeah. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: it also took so long for this movie to get made.
Speaker 1: It took twenty almost twenty years. Yeah, the film rights
Speaker 1: were required in it had been in development since nine
Speaker 1: seven was the first Titanic years I know. And instead
Speaker 1: they're released in the Daddy's Home Year, so that yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it took so long to get the movie
Speaker 1: funded properly, to get the right names attached, and just too,
Speaker 1: I think, just the matter of waiting it for it
Speaker 1: to seem like a quote unquote safe movie to have
Speaker 1: a fairly wide release, and so you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: impressive that it ended up the way it did and
Speaker 1: that it happened at all. I mean, that's eighteen years
Speaker 1: waiting to make a queer like, it's crazy. I read
Speaker 1: on IMDb that at some point it was like they
Speaker 1: were maybe going to try to do it like in
Speaker 1: the nineties sixties and who not Rita Hayworth, Like someone
Speaker 1: was attached, but that was gonna be a huge thing.
Speaker 1: And then I read and this sounds like a sketch,
Speaker 1: but I read that a treatment was written where the
Speaker 1: name and gender were changed and it was Carl and
Speaker 1: it was and I was like, because kin edit IMDb.
Speaker 1: So I was like, I need to do more research
Speaker 1: on this, but I want to believe that happened, because
Speaker 1: that fucking table that it would have been turned into
Speaker 1: a gay mail story or a heater and it was
Speaker 1: just like a treatment that was written and like this
Speaker 1: and it never went But I'm like, how did someone
Speaker 1: spent time? What would that story even be? And if
Speaker 1: Carols boring would have been unwatchable. But that ex told
Speaker 1: me when I read that, I honestly I believe I
Speaker 1: believe it. I thought it's true. I want to be
Speaker 1: the internew had to write coverage on the treadman of
Speaker 1: carl Or or the man that had to confidently pitch
Speaker 1: it to Patricia Highsmith and be like, listen, I love
Speaker 1: what you're doing. I see what you're doing. What about Coral.
Speaker 1: She just throws the snail at him. It's like, get
Speaker 1: out of my office. One of them as well, Hey,
Speaker 1: do you think this movie passes the Bechdel test or not?
Speaker 1: What does? Very much? I don't think there's a single
Speaker 1: scene of two men talking without a woman there. I was.
Speaker 1: I was half paying attention for that. So there's scenes
Speaker 1: with multiple men in the room, but there's always, at
Speaker 1: least I think there's always a woman involved. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then yeah, there's a lot of different combinations of characters
Speaker 1: talking the past, the test between Caroline Tarez, between Caroline Abbey,
Speaker 1: Abbey and Tarez, So yeah, you see a lot of
Speaker 1: different combinations of lots of options for scene study class indeed,
Speaker 1: because that's like what the Bectel test means to me
Speaker 1: in my life. It's like going back to college and
Speaker 1: being like, why can't have found any scenes with two
Speaker 1: girls to work on? And you're like, because acting school
Speaker 1: is you know women. Anyway, it's great, we have to
Speaker 1: use the three guys over and over and over again
Speaker 1: in class because there are no scenes for all of us.
Speaker 1: This is also another fairly rare example of a movie
Speaker 1: that passes the Vito Russo test. And if you're not
Speaker 1: familiar with that, what that is, listeners. It is a
Speaker 1: test that requires that a film must contain a character
Speaker 1: who is identifiably lgbt Q. Plus the character must not
Speaker 1: solely or predominantly be defined by their sexual orientation or
Speaker 1: gender identity. So, in other words, they need to be
Speaker 1: made up of the same sort of like unique character
Speaker 1: traits that are commonly used to differentiate straight characters from
Speaker 1: one another. And Cape Blanchet right, photographer, she's a photographer, uh,
Speaker 1: And the queer character must be tied into the plot
Speaker 1: in such a way that their removal from the story
Speaker 1: would have a significant impact. So basically they just matter. God,
Speaker 1: although I do, I mean Nicole. I think that it
Speaker 1: was really interesting that how like there is no Bectel
Speaker 1: like or Bechtel Wallace test for queer women, that she
Speaker 1: is so defined by her relationship, which I agree is
Speaker 1: very first relationship e and like, you know, just thinking
Speaker 1: about anyone's first relationship is cringe e U. But that
Speaker 1: that is like a good like they I'm glad that
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, she also has you know, like she
Speaker 1: has this aspiration. She will not advocate for herself for it,
Speaker 1: and she's not very good, but you know she's she's
Speaker 1: going for it, getting better, she's better. But it's also
Speaker 1: like the one moment where I really were I was like,
Speaker 1: I'll funk all this, like when I because because I
Speaker 1: was like, because I in my head, I was like,
Speaker 1: well I did give her photography, I guess, even though
Speaker 1: she seems only mildly passionate about it. Um Like the
Speaker 1: one moment where it really all came crashing down is
Speaker 1: when what's his name, her friend Danny is helping her
Speaker 1: paint and he's like, you really should do a show
Speaker 1: and says it twice, and she's not only like oh no,
Speaker 1: you know I'm not really good. She's like no, and
Speaker 1: you're like, why are you so Like she's like I
Speaker 1: don't want to know, and you're like, okay, so I
Speaker 1: guess you don't care that it happens off screen, but
Speaker 1: at some point she does, you know, but it happens.
Speaker 1: She's also just painting. Did you guys noticed that one?
Speaker 1: You've never you know, sweetheart, It's so funny to see
Speaker 1: actor like actors betray their richness on screen and just like,
Speaker 1: that's what are you doing? Yes? Anyways, I I do
Speaker 1: agree that, like, definitely one care during this movie is
Speaker 1: more defined by a romantic relationship than Yes, let's write
Speaker 1: the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples.
Speaker 1: Based on its portrayal and treatment of women, I think
Speaker 1: I'm going to give it a four. It's nice that
Speaker 1: you have a story about queer women. They are certainly
Speaker 1: the focus, they are driving the narrative. The one character,
Speaker 1: as we've discussed, is not that well defined and characterized,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's still better than most of
Speaker 1: the female characters we see in any given movie. So
Speaker 1: there's that. Um, it is such a white movie. It
Speaker 1: is extraordinarily white, and it does take place in New
Speaker 1: York for most of it, so there's really not And
Speaker 1: it's like, I it always drives us anytime New York
Speaker 1: is in a movie and everyone in New York is white,
Speaker 1: and then people are like it's a buried piece. You're
Speaker 1: just like, no, you're a director, you're a writer, like
Speaker 1: you could you can include people. Especially when she's at
Speaker 1: that party at like her friend Phil's Plight. I was
Speaker 1: watching the people on the street walking by, was like,
Speaker 1: is one of them not going to be? And I
Speaker 1: was like, they're the party And then also at the
Speaker 1: Bloomingdale's type place too, like why not. Yeah, there aren't
Speaker 1: that many crowd scenes, but the ones that are still
Speaker 1: almost entirely white people, there could have been opportunity, Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it could have been better representation wise,
Speaker 1: but it's a step in the right direction. You know,
Speaker 1: we talked about how few mainstream movies there are about
Speaker 1: queer people, and you know, hopefully this at least in
Speaker 1: some way helped pave the way for more to be
Speaker 1: seen down the road, because the more we see, the
Speaker 1: more it's normalized, and more representation is what we're always striving. Four.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say, four nipples, and I will give
Speaker 1: two to Kate Blanchet. I will give to to Rooney
Speaker 1: Mar's performance in another movie. Yeah yeah, all right, great, Wow,
Speaker 1: So I do truly like her. I'm so on the
Speaker 1: fence about so many elements. I'm also going to go
Speaker 1: with four, uh for for many of the same reasons.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it is in spite of sort
Speaker 1: of the the stuff that we've unpacked as being either
Speaker 1: like a little off or just straight up confusing, it
Speaker 1: is I think, you know, it's generally great that this
Speaker 1: movie because especially and this is like something we didn't
Speaker 1: we don't really talk about a lot, but the fan
Speaker 1: base of this movie has grown so much since it's
Speaker 1: been available on Netflix. And I was there was like
Speaker 1: a long piece reported in Them a couple of months
Speaker 1: ago about the huge young fan base that Carol has
Speaker 1: built um since being on Netflix. And just not only
Speaker 1: is like representation important important, but like accessibility uh two,
Speaker 1: movies like this are so important because this is an
Speaker 1: art house movie and you know, mostly the majority of
Speaker 1: people at this table did not see it, uh in
Speaker 1: in small you know, movie theaters. In so the fact
Speaker 1: that it's available to young people and too. I mean
Speaker 1: to everyone, Um, if if you have you know, your
Speaker 1: excess Netflix password is a really cool thing. And and
Speaker 1: so in spite of its shortcomings, I'm glad that it's uh,
Speaker 1: it exists, and that it's accessible, and that it, for
Speaker 1: the most part, you know, was adapted responsibly and by
Speaker 1: the right people. So I'll go for as well. I'll
Speaker 1: give to to Kate Blanchett. I'm gonna give my other
Speaker 1: two to Abby. Oh yeah, yeah, I would say four
Speaker 1: is well. I mean my my issues with Rooney Mara. No,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna three. I don't even get name and dropped
Speaker 1: it because I started thinking about it more and I
Speaker 1: was like, I can't can't. Um, yeah, I mean to
Speaker 1: definitely the Cate Blanchet always maybe all three no, but
Speaker 1: one to one to Abby. Um. And I agree with
Speaker 1: everything that that you guys have said. I don't even
Speaker 1: have much more to add. Um. I just simply wish
Speaker 1: that Rooney Mara's character had been more than a blank
Speaker 1: slate who is imprinted upon by the one person that
Speaker 1: she's attracted to. So that's all I love this movie.
Speaker 1: I'm not awesome at Separate. I'm not the best of
Speaker 1: being objective when I really love something, and I recognize
Speaker 1: that about myself. I feel like going into this, I
Speaker 1: maybe would have said four and a half, but I
Speaker 1: after hearing all this, I am going to say for
Speaker 1: I barely had an issue with with Rooney Mara's character.
Speaker 1: May be reading it in terms of like coming into
Speaker 1: contact with so many women who are first coming out.
Speaker 1: I was looking at it through that kind of a
Speaker 1: lens and being like, oh, I bet if we saw
Speaker 1: this character a year from now, like she would be
Speaker 1: more filled in. But again, yeah, it's true that that
Speaker 1: is that's my brain screenwriting and directing and stuff, and
Speaker 1: I respect that. Um. When I love this movie and
Speaker 1: I do think it's super hot, and I will not
Speaker 1: apologize for that, I will give my nipples. I will
Speaker 1: give one to Cape Blanchet, one to Ruoney Mara, and then,
Speaker 1: even though she's not in this movie, I'm giving to
Speaker 1: to racial Advice just because she was my girlfriend and
Speaker 1: I love her just because her presence is leaning over
Speaker 1: our conversation and I would like to throw her some nipples.
Speaker 1: We'll have to get the both of you back on
Speaker 1: to do the favorite. I love like, I love, love,
Speaker 1: love love love that movie just really quick I think
Speaker 1: you know and I know that we have all had
Speaker 1: different takes on Mr Football in this movie. Consider Alfred
Speaker 1: Molina in that part playing Cape Lunch's husband. I'm horny.
Speaker 1: Although maybe they just needed them to not have as
Speaker 1: much chemistry and so that's why Alfred Millina couldn't do it.
Speaker 1: Probably the chart with everyone sure, how many nipples does
Speaker 1: three D snails have? Oh god, let me look, okay,
Speaker 1: do zero? Just because there were no nipples besides hers
Speaker 1: ever in that apartment? Like it feels like with three
Speaker 1: hundred snails, Like snails do not have nipples. So I
Speaker 1: can tell you that, anybody, how do you get a
Speaker 1: girl back to you? The keys in the door? You're like, oh,
Speaker 1: one one thing before I should tell you? The Google
Speaker 1: results for do snails have nipples? Are wild? I don't
Speaker 1: recommend them. Well, thank you so much. Right on that note, Um,
Speaker 1: where where can we find you? Online? Plug away? I
Speaker 1: am at Nicole Patient on Twitter and Instagram. I am
Speaker 1: at Lauren Flans on Twitter. Um, that's the best Lauren
Speaker 1: underscore Flans on Instagram. But I'm not on Instagram. Not
Speaker 1: Lauren's a Twitter Twitter person on a Twitter person and
Speaker 1: our podcast is at Coming Out Pod on Twitter and Instagram.
Speaker 1: Give it a listen wherever you find podcast. Thank you
Speaker 1: guys so much for having us all so much fun.
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here. You can follow us on
Speaker 1: the social media platforms at Bechdel Cast. We've got our
Speaker 1: Matreon aka Patreon five bucks a month to bonus episodes
Speaker 1: Can't go Wrong, uh so. And and this month on
Speaker 1: the Patreon we're doing uh Knocked Up and Obvious Child
Speaker 1: speaking to Jake Lacey Heavy Mup on the past. Yes
Speaker 1: it's pregnancy June on the Matreon inspiring uh so. So.
Speaker 1: You can check us out there. We have our merch
Speaker 1: store at t public dot com slash the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 1: We're getting some new designs in there soon, but you
Speaker 1: can get your Feminism is the Law Now shirt. Also
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Speaker 1: and we'll talk to you. Yeah, yes, see you later. Bye.
Speaker 1: By Football