Speaker 1: On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
Speaker 1: have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends
Speaker 1: and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef
Speaker 1: and best start changing it with the Beck Deel Cast. Hello,
Speaker 1: and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie
Speaker 1: Loftus and my name is Caitlin Darante. And before we
Speaker 1: get our episodes started today, we wanted to welcome all
Speaker 1: our new listeners. This is our first episode on the
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works Network. We're so thrilled to be here. Yes,
Speaker 1: so if this is your first time listening to our podcast,
Speaker 1: we'll just give you a quick explainer on on what
Speaker 1: we do here. That's right, So we again are the
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast. We talk about the portrayal and representation of
Speaker 1: women in movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Every Thursday,
Speaker 1: we bring in a special guests who brings in one
Speaker 1: of their favorite movies, a movie that's really affected them,
Speaker 1: and we tear it apart based on the way that
Speaker 1: it treats women in that movie. Uh, sometimes it does
Speaker 1: really well, other times not so much. Hollywood kind of
Speaker 1: has a long history of not representing women well at all? Um?
Speaker 1: What Yeah, hard to believe? Hot take. That's why we're here.
Speaker 1: We use the Bechdel test as a sort of jumping
Speaker 1: off point to initiate this larger conversation about representation of women.
Speaker 1: What on earth is the Bechtel test? Caitlin, Why, Jamie?
Speaker 1: I'd be happy to tell you. It is a test
Speaker 1: that originated from cartoonist Alison Bechdel in the nineties. It
Speaker 1: requires that a movie has at least two women in
Speaker 1: it who have names, they have to speak to each other,
Speaker 1: and that conversation cannot be about a man at all. Word,
Speaker 1: I know. Shall we demo it? I'd love to. Let's
Speaker 1: demo it? Free people, Okay, begin test? Hi Kitlin, Hey Jamie,
Speaker 1: did you know that this is our first episode on
Speaker 1: the House of Works network. I did know that, Oh
Speaker 1: my god. But like for people who are like new
Speaker 1: to the podcast, what should I listened to? Are there
Speaker 1: other episodes? There are because we've operated independently up until now.
Speaker 1: Good for us, I know we're such strong independent women.
Speaker 1: Queen go off. We have over eight episodes backlogged of
Speaker 1: a ton of different movies, so check those out. Chances
Speaker 1: are we've covered one of your favorites. Yeah, we've got
Speaker 1: a lot of hot spicy backlog with some hot spicy discourse.
Speaker 1: We've covered Star Wars, We've covered Black Panther, We've covered
Speaker 1: for some reason, we covered Gelie. We sure did. So.
Speaker 1: Did that conversation pass the Bitle test? Well, except for
Speaker 1: Gelie because Jeli is a man. But up until yeah, grow,
Speaker 1: until the very end of that conversation, I would say
Speaker 1: we've passed with flying colors. Good for us, And so
Speaker 1: toward the end of every episode, after our discussion, after
Speaker 1: our heavy but also fun discourse. Sometimes it's heavy, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's light. Yeah, we will determine whether or not the
Speaker 1: movie passes the Bechtel test, and we will rate the
Speaker 1: movie on our special rating system, which we will get to.
Speaker 1: But yeah, other than that, we're so happy to be
Speaker 1: here and how stuff works. We're happy you're joining us.
Speaker 1: And today's episode we're talking about breakfast at Tiffany's and
Speaker 1: we have a wonderful guest, So let's introduce her. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1: She is the host of Bad with Money podcast and
Speaker 1: she is the writer of I Hate Everyone, But You
Speaker 1: Cant Be Done. Hi. Hi, thanks for being here. Oh,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me. We're going older than we usually
Speaker 1: go today. We haven't done a lot of movies before.
Speaker 1: I would say, agree, yeah, but this is this is
Speaker 1: a big one. This is a classic. Yes, I did
Speaker 1: notice that you guys don't do a lot of very
Speaker 1: old movies, which is why I suggested this one. I
Speaker 1: think probably one of the reasons we tend to steer
Speaker 1: more towards modern and contemporary movies is that our conversations
Speaker 1: are about how we influence media. Media influences us so
Speaker 1: or today's world. Not as many people are watching the
Speaker 1: older movies anymore. Maybe I don't know my grandmother on
Speaker 1: the Turner classic movies. I used to be a t C.
Speaker 1: M Right addict, as Kim. It's really good. But like,
Speaker 1: especially like with today's younger generation, who are the most
Speaker 1: easily influenced, they're watching you know, Marvel stuff like what's
Speaker 1: in theaters right now, and they're not a lot of
Speaker 1: them unless they're like film buffs, aren't necessarily going back
Speaker 1: to older movies or pretentious. I mean. But also the
Speaker 1: thing is with this one is that like young women
Speaker 1: have this aesthetic about it, and they also like have
Speaker 1: you know the poster of Audrey Hepburn, and like they're
Speaker 1: aware of this as like a classic that keeps keeps
Speaker 1: coming back kind of as like a cool thing without
Speaker 1: possibly even understanding the movie or having seen the movie.
Speaker 1: I hope that we do more old movie. It's it's
Speaker 1: for me. I just sort of assume that anything before,
Speaker 1: even though I've seen a lot of them, but like
Speaker 1: a lot of pre nineteen eight is just straight up
Speaker 1: a wa where you're just like, yeah, that's not gonna
Speaker 1: do well. That's not going to do well. And most
Speaker 1: movies after Night and also in most movies that come
Speaker 1: out now, but in particular before that, but sometimes they're
Speaker 1: really sneaky feminist, like they get away with a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff, Like I was just saying, I love the
Speaker 1: movie Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, and that is like very They
Speaker 1: get away with so many things like Marilyn Morose characters,
Speaker 1: they're both like so overtly sexual and it's just like
Speaker 1: completely fine. So I think there's like a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff that I don't know. It's not all like oh
Speaker 1: this is terrible and women suck and there were a
Speaker 1: lot of really great like leading parts for women back
Speaker 1: and I don't know where we steered wrong, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say it's probably the Well, this movie came
Speaker 1: out in nineteen sixty one while the production Code was
Speaker 1: still in full effect, so I would hazard to guess.
Speaker 1: And I don't know a whole time about this, but
Speaker 1: the production code was an effect between four and I
Speaker 1: think nineteen sixty eight or nine, and this was like
Speaker 1: all the censorship of like you could, like there was
Speaker 1: no overt sexuality, you couldn't swear, there couldn't be graphic violence,
Speaker 1: or couldn't be Yeah, there's like tons of innuendos, and
Speaker 1: that gave birth to things like screwball comedy and like
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other things. But like, yeah, because
Speaker 1: of the production code and all the censorship that came
Speaker 1: with that, I think reinforced more like rigid gender roles.
Speaker 1: But they think they I think like limitations made people
Speaker 1: a little more I don't know, made them, made them
Speaker 1: a little more creative about rather than just going for
Speaker 1: like these in some movies. Yeah, I just I'm always
Speaker 1: shocked by how overtly sexual they're like allowed to be
Speaker 1: with these kind of innuendos, or like having to write
Speaker 1: around these sort of things, Like I was saying to
Speaker 1: Jamie too before this that I read that they had
Speaker 1: the Paul character. They added more sexual stuff for him
Speaker 1: in the script so that the sensors would go after
Speaker 1: him and and censor more of his things and leave
Speaker 1: Holly go lightly alone, which is smart, which is like
Speaker 1: an interesting trick. It's a cool misdirect. Yeah. Yeah, I Well,
Speaker 1: let's talk about your history with the movie. When did
Speaker 1: you first see the movie and like, what is your
Speaker 1: history with that up till now? When I was in
Speaker 1: high school, I was like a very pretentious asshole, um,
Speaker 1: and so I was kind of doing this thing where
Speaker 1: I was like like old music, I like old movies.
Speaker 1: I'm wearing silk gloves to prom whatever that kind of girl.
Speaker 1: And so I would start watching these old movies because
Speaker 1: I just I don't know, I was trying to be
Speaker 1: like a person who knew about things that other kids
Speaker 1: at school didn't know about, which you know, people loved obviously,
Speaker 1: like Super wanted to be friends with me, and so
Speaker 1: like I took a lot of pride in being like
Speaker 1: I know about all this media that you don't even
Speaker 1: know about. So I think I watched it just because
Speaker 1: I had seen all these photos and I knew about
Speaker 1: like the picture of her with the with the tiara,
Speaker 1: and but I had no idea what it was about.
Speaker 1: So I watched in high school because I watched a
Speaker 1: lot of like Elvis Beach movies. I watched Hard Days
Speaker 1: Night all the time. I liked Marilyn Monroe stuff. So
Speaker 1: this was like your era that you that you in
Speaker 1: fifties early sixties got into it. And then when I
Speaker 1: watched it, I was like, wait a minute, they're both
Speaker 1: sex workers. Like this is crazy, Like I this movie
Speaker 1: that is built up as being this classy, kind of
Speaker 1: like beautiful thing that like in Audrey Hepburn especially who's
Speaker 1: viewed as kind of like untouchable and like a porcelain doll.
Speaker 1: And it's like not explicitly stated in either in in
Speaker 1: the story or the movie, but it's so like Truman Capodi,
Speaker 1: I liked this phrase a lot. When he was asked
Speaker 1: if I lately was a sex worker, like years later,
Speaker 1: he's like, I like to think of her as an
Speaker 1: American geisha. Okay, okay, so you're saying it, but you're
Speaker 1: not going to say they would. In the in the
Speaker 1: press for the film at the time, they were saying
Speaker 1: she was a party girl or that she they also
Speaker 1: used the word kuk a lot. They were like, she's
Speaker 1: an eccentric coup right, And it's like, okay, this is
Speaker 1: some really wild coated language we're pulling out. But it's
Speaker 1: like no one will actually say, but it is clearly
Speaker 1: what's you know, Yeah, I mean there's it's not subtle.
Speaker 1: I mean he gives her money for the quote unquote
Speaker 1: powder room, the interior decorator quote unquote leaves Paul three
Speaker 1: dollars like on the nightstand. Like it's not subtle at all.
Speaker 1: So then I was like, oh my god, this is
Speaker 1: the same movie that people laud as this classy sort
Speaker 1: of thing that like women, you know, dress up for
Speaker 1: his Halloween like and you know what I mean, I
Speaker 1: put the poster in their dorm and I was like,
Speaker 1: we do we does anybody else understand what this movie
Speaker 1: is about? And then I loved it because I always
Speaker 1: loved sort of subversive stuff, so I was like, this
Speaker 1: is great, um, And then I would watch it every
Speaker 1: so often as like a you know, to fall asleep,
Speaker 1: as like a soothing because now it's kind of like
Speaker 1: this comfort movie, which a lot of Audrey Hepburn stuff
Speaker 1: is for me, It's like just very comforting. So it's
Speaker 1: been with you for a long time. Yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: sort of similarly. I had the poster before I saw
Speaker 1: the movie, the poster hanging in my room. I think
Speaker 1: my mom gave it to me, and I had it
Speaker 1: for like a full year before I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I should probably wise this because I love old movies.
Speaker 1: My era was I was like wartime MGM movie. I
Speaker 1: had a stack of tapes and like DVD is full
Speaker 1: of TCM Judy Garland movies, like every Judy. I was
Speaker 1: a full on Judy person, which is also one of
Speaker 1: the many reasons it's so painful to watch Mickey Rooney
Speaker 1: in this movie because he's in all the Judy Garland movies.
Speaker 1: But so I finally got around do watching breakfasite Tiffany's
Speaker 1: and then read the book as well, and I really
Speaker 1: really really loved Truman Capodi, who did not like this movie,
Speaker 1: but I think it's really nice. There was so much,
Speaker 1: uh I haven't seen in at least two or three years.
Speaker 1: Like it's sort of the thing that whenever it's on Netflix,
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh no, this is a good background thing.
Speaker 1: But I totally forgot about some of the very like
Speaker 1: moving sad things that happened in this movie. It's and
Speaker 1: I think that that's true. There's just like this weird
Speaker 1: dissonance with this movie where you remember what Andrey Hepburn
Speaker 1: looks like, you remember sort of how she have? Do
Speaker 1: you remember that there's parties and you remember there's a
Speaker 1: kiss in the rain at the end and everything else.
Speaker 1: It's you're sort of just like, oh, yeah, she's arrested.
Speaker 1: There's a character named Sally Tomato. There's brother die. I
Speaker 1: totally forgot a brother died. Yeah, it's like an incredibly
Speaker 1: sad movie. And then it's recreated, like I keep thinking
Speaker 1: of the scene of Gossip Girl where they recreate it
Speaker 1: um and and Latin me stir is her and then
Speaker 1: it's just played us this very romantic thing, and people
Speaker 1: like don't know what the movie is about, which I
Speaker 1: can see why Truman Capodi would freaking hate that. He
Speaker 1: hat well, we'll get into this in a bit. But
Speaker 1: there's like the context that he wrote this story, and
Speaker 1: also that in the short story, Paul is coded gay um,
Speaker 1: which obviously they completely scrap in this movie. But there's
Speaker 1: you know, there's just like a lot of interesting stuff,
Speaker 1: but Yeah, this movie was with me since I think
Speaker 1: high school as well. I have a really embarrassing MySpace
Speaker 1: profile pick with the poster in the background just and
Speaker 1: it's black and white and it's really horrible. No, it's
Speaker 1: really bad, but I I don't know. And then watching
Speaker 1: it this time, I don't dislike this movie. I still
Speaker 1: I still enjoyed it, but there's just like a lot
Speaker 1: that stuck out to me and just stuff I'd forgotten. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I saw it for the first time in college during
Speaker 1: that period of time because I was not to brag,
Speaker 1: but I was majoring in film, so I was trying
Speaker 1: to watch as many movies as I could, So I
Speaker 1: would sometimes watch like two or three movies a day,
Speaker 1: and then like from that period of time, my brain
Speaker 1: didn't store anything about the story or like any of
Speaker 1: important things about the movie. The only thing I would
Speaker 1: remember about the movies I watched back then is whether
Speaker 1: or not I liked them, And what I remembered about
Speaker 1: Breakfast at Tiffany's is a very visceral hatred for this movie.
Speaker 1: I hate this movie. Hate it the first time you
Speaker 1: saw it, yes, and I hate it now. I hate it.
Speaker 1: Gain to hate this movie. Um were you really left
Speaker 1: in to have me on because of that, because it's fun.
Speaker 1: I think it's fun a lot of times. Yeah. We
Speaker 1: love talking about movies that we hate, and I think
Speaker 1: we we do our best at least to try to
Speaker 1: not let our personal feelings about the movie influence our
Speaker 1: like critical analysis of the portrayal of women in the movie.
Speaker 1: So I do my best to keep that separate. Anytime
Speaker 1: it's an old movie, Caitlin Hansa, anytime it's a movie
Speaker 1: with aliens, I hate it. We all do. Don't get
Speaker 1: me wrong. I like a lot of old movies. This
Speaker 1: just isn't an example of one of the ones that
Speaker 1: I like. So um. I like Audrey Hepburn. She kind
Speaker 1: of plays a similar type of woman a lot. I
Speaker 1: think the only other thing I saw her in was
Speaker 1: My Fair Lady. I liked that movie, okay, And I
Speaker 1: had read Pig Million and I liked that. I haven't
Speaker 1: seen it for over a decade, so I don't know
Speaker 1: if it holds up at all. But the reason I
Speaker 1: don't like this movie is I find the Holly Golightly
Speaker 1: character absolutely insufferable. I didn't read the novellas all um.
Speaker 1: I'm not super familiar with the context, but just there's
Speaker 1: barely a plot and I hate the character, so sorry
Speaker 1: about that. But from here on out, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be happy and nice anyway, So I'll do the recap.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. We are introduced to Holly go Lately.
Speaker 1: She's living in New York City. Wow city where dreams
Speaker 1: Come true. Concrete jungle where dreams are made of. Okay,
Speaker 1: so it's the early sixties. She's, you know, living a
Speaker 1: life in New York City. Although it's never explicitly stated,
Speaker 1: there are different innuendos and hints to suggest that she
Speaker 1: is a sex worker escort American. And early on she
Speaker 1: meets her new neighbor who moves in named Paul, but
Speaker 1: she keeps calling him Fred because he looks like her
Speaker 1: brother and Fred and we know that it's a red
Speaker 1: flag because he is a blonde male adult. It's still
Speaker 1: one of the biggest human red flags you can encounter.
Speaker 1: Is an adult, blond male dangerous, Do not interact with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So Paul also seems to have a certain
Speaker 1: arrangement with a woman named Mrs Phalenson. I love Mrs Phalenson.
Speaker 1: So Patricia Neil, she's amazing, she's so got her husky voice,
Speaker 1: and then she she just she like appears in a
Speaker 1: room and like, oh, she's going to fuck him. Like
Speaker 1: it's just such a she's so great. She's married to
Speaker 1: Roald Dahl. Yeah, I didn't know them. That's so cool.
Speaker 1: In fact, so they have an arrangement where he's a writer,
Speaker 1: but a struggling writer. He's written one book of nine
Speaker 1: short stories. But other than that he needs some financial security,
Speaker 1: which Mrs Valensen seems to provide. So Paul and Holly
Speaker 1: are in similar careers and they yeah, so they kind
Speaker 1: of they started to become friends early on, Like Holly
Speaker 1: throws a party and she meets a few different rich
Speaker 1: guys who get invited. Um one's named Jose Da Silva
Speaker 1: Pereira and the other one is a Rusts. These men
Speaker 1: eventually become two men that Holly tries to pursue and
Speaker 1: like seduce so that they will marry her, so that
Speaker 1: she can marry a wealthy man. Then Holly's husband, we
Speaker 1: find out that she was previously married when she got married. Okay,
Speaker 1: so this is going on fourteen. This is crazy. So
Speaker 1: so she and her brother were poor, their parents died,
Speaker 1: They were stealing turkey eggs from this guy's yard. He
Speaker 1: was like a full grown man. He was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I'll adopt you. So she so he adopts
Speaker 1: her and Fred, and then when she gets to be thirteen,
Speaker 1: he's like and he has kids from a previous marriage.
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, I want to marry you. So then
Speaker 1: he marries her and then they like are raising the
Speaker 1: brother and the kids together. What so weird. And then
Speaker 1: the way that the movie presents him to me is
Speaker 1: also very bizarre, Like as they present him is like
Speaker 1: you understand why she doesn't go back with him, obviously,
Speaker 1: but also he's presented it's like this really like sympathetic,
Speaker 1: sweet simple man, but he loves her and you're just like, no,
Speaker 1: this guy's like criminal statutory rapists who shows up with
Speaker 1: his big blue eyes. He's like come back to the farm.
Speaker 1: And you're just like, no, she's in the right. But
Speaker 1: it's plate as that, like he's in the right. And
Speaker 1: also she says like, well I was I was only thirteen,
Speaker 1: so the marriage was an old Yeah, yeah I bet
Speaker 1: it was. Yeah that tracks like there's and also Paul
Speaker 1: pissed me up in that scene, and this is I
Speaker 1: think in a lot of ways, just revealing of the
Speaker 1: era where Doc shows up. He's like, hey, that girl
Speaker 1: you have a crush on I raped her, and like
Speaker 1: I need to see her because I'm her husband, and Paul,
Speaker 1: without checking, without giving Holly any manner of heads up,
Speaker 1: just knocks on her door and he's like, hey, found
Speaker 1: your rapist outside. He was like you fucking was are
Speaker 1: you just sold her out so hard? And then Holly
Speaker 1: has to deal with it. She does not get mad
Speaker 1: at Paul. She's not even just a sweet guy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just like we we can be upset with Doc. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I just that scene was so like, there's a few
Speaker 1: different moments in the way that Paul treats Holly that
Speaker 1: this story doesn't address. That is really just like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: at that time, if a man says I'm this woman's husband,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how the woman feels. You bring him
Speaker 1: to her and his like this person you just met
Speaker 1: his needs matter more than the person you're falling in
Speaker 1: love with. Sure, right, So that is a fun story beat.
Speaker 1: But ultimately he's like trying to lower her back home
Speaker 1: with a promise of like, hey, your brother, Paul is
Speaker 1: getting out of the Army Fred. So she's like, no,
Speaker 1: I can't go back, and then he like sort of threatens.
Speaker 1: He's us like, well, if you don't get on his
Speaker 1: Greyhound buzz with me, maybe you'll never see Fred again.
Speaker 1: It was like what a Yeah, he's a man. But
Speaker 1: so then she's like, oh, I have to marry a
Speaker 1: rich guy so that I can bring Fred to me
Speaker 1: in New York City so I can take care of
Speaker 1: him again. This adult man who has been in the
Speaker 1: army for presumably a few years. He kind of insinuates
Speaker 1: that Fred is not smart. Yes it's she's it's not stated,
Speaker 1: but yeah. She says at the beginning that he's very
Speaker 1: slow and tall. Maybe he's like John Malkovich of Mice
Speaker 1: and Men. Yep, that's what that's the cannon I'm going with.
Speaker 1: So she's trying to seduce these different rich men. First
Speaker 1: she starts with Rusty Troller, but then she finds out
Speaker 1: that he has married someone else, and then she starts
Speaker 1: to go after Jose And meanwhile, like she's spending time
Speaker 1: with Paul and they're really connecting and he's catching some
Speaker 1: fields for her. But she, you know, she doesn't know
Speaker 1: if she is or not because she doesn't like to
Speaker 1: be tied down to anyone. She's she's a freezer bird.
Speaker 1: She's like, there's a cat. It's a metaphor, right, the
Speaker 1: cat doesn't have a name, and the cat will get
Speaker 1: a name when she feels like she can settle down, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But these different pursuits don't work out because she gets
Speaker 1: arrested for her all right. She has also Sally to me, Sally,
Speaker 1: I can't believe I forgot to mention Sally Tomato feministically Tomato.
Speaker 1: He was like a known gangster. This like drug scandal
Speaker 1: surfaces and because she was visiting him in prison information basically, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, I don't really understand that whole I
Speaker 1: read about it, and in the rite ups I read,
Speaker 1: they believe that she really didn't know, like she really
Speaker 1: thought it was a weather report. But I don't know
Speaker 1: if she's that stupid. Yeah, she's gotten through life pretty cleverly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But so then she she's like about to go to
Speaker 1: Brazil to marry Jose, and then she gets arrested for
Speaker 1: her involvement with Sally Tomato. And then she is this
Speaker 1: before after she finds out that her brother has died
Speaker 1: in a before before before because Jose still there. Doesn't
Speaker 1: Jose leave after? Oh yeah, he leaves because because she
Speaker 1: got arrested. Yeah, all right, So she finds out out
Speaker 1: and then she trashes her room and then she is
Speaker 1: in a cab. Paul has picked her up from prison,
Speaker 1: and then he's just like, I love you, Holly. You
Speaker 1: need to get out of your cage that you built yourself.
Speaker 1: You belong to me. He tells her that because he
Speaker 1: loves her, that she belongs to him, he won't let
Speaker 1: her go in the library. He's like he's script. It's
Speaker 1: very romantic. And then she flings her own cat out
Speaker 1: of the cab, like find a home here. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: also that one shot. This is like I think it's
Speaker 1: the same we found out where Fred died. Where someone
Speaker 1: it's clear it's not Audrey. Hepburn throws a cat at
Speaker 1: the wall and you see the cat fly through the
Speaker 1: frame and hit the wall. I was like, you can't
Speaker 1: do that. You had lands on the window. Yeah, you see,
Speaker 1: Like I like you just imagine like a first a
Speaker 1: deep being like okay, I'm just gonna throw this cat
Speaker 1: really quick. Oh my god. Also, cats do have eight nipples,
Speaker 1: as his cat facts with Caitlin thank you so much. Um. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So basically in the in the cab right at the
Speaker 1: end of the movie, Paul is confessing his love for Holly.
Speaker 1: She's like and then she's like, wait a minute, He's right.
Speaker 1: I do need to let people in. I need to
Speaker 1: let love into my life. I do need to go
Speaker 1: back and get my cat. So she gets out of
Speaker 1: the cab and they look for the cat together, they
Speaker 1: find it, and then there's a kiss in the rain,
Speaker 1: and that is the end of the movie. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 1: All right, and we're back. There's a lot that happens
Speaker 1: in this movie. Yeah, there's a lot of plot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: To me, it's like there's no like really distinct desire
Speaker 1: that she's given. She has a few like micro goals,
Speaker 1: but I think the fred and security or are her
Speaker 1: to motivations, Like she wants to be with her brother,
Speaker 1: and she also wants to like live a comfortable life
Speaker 1: without having to commit to someone at first, and then
Speaker 1: later decides she does want to commit to someone because
Speaker 1: of comfort. Yeah, and Paul wants to be a writer.
Speaker 1: They're both kind of trying to get out of sex work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this just for context of the book, which is
Speaker 1: very different. So Holly Goalightly was pulled from two different
Speaker 1: sources in Truman Compote's life. One is his mom, who
Speaker 1: literally did basically the Lula May thing where when Truman
Speaker 1: Compoti was very young, his mom and this is like
Speaker 1: they lived in Alabama, blah blah blah. Truman's mom boots out,
Speaker 1: She's like, actually, I'm going to go to New York
Speaker 1: and like find us a cool life, changed her name
Speaker 1: the whole like the whole Holy Galately story, except she
Speaker 1: had a kid, and then eventually Truman campone to New
Speaker 1: York with her. It didn't work out. They ended up
Speaker 1: moving back to Alabama. But so his mom, who he
Speaker 1: had like a weird relationship with his whole life, basically
Speaker 1: lived this sort of Holly Golightly adjacent lifestyle for a while.
Speaker 1: Wait are you telling me a gay creative had a
Speaker 1: weird relationship with his mom? I can't. I can't believe it.
Speaker 1: But it gets better because Paul in the story is
Speaker 1: Holly's neighbor but is not like an explicit love interest
Speaker 1: at all, and his quoted gay or that is like
Speaker 1: what was speculated by a lot of critics. So it's
Speaker 1: like Truman Capote wrote this novella where he as an adult,
Speaker 1: became friends with his mom at his age and then
Speaker 1: they have this like it's it's great. And then the
Speaker 1: other one is um a neighbor of his right, a
Speaker 1: woman who lived downstairs from him. Exactly. Yeah. Um, So
Speaker 1: it's like interesting self fan fick in some ways. And
Speaker 1: then he also pulled on like he I guess he
Speaker 1: was like I wanted to write a female Gatsby character,
Speaker 1: which you can see a lot of in hollyg Lately
Speaker 1: as well as like the self made Yeah is she
Speaker 1: a phony? The thing is she's a real phony exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She is a prototype manic pixie dream girl for sure.
Speaker 1: The way she's introduced when he comes in and she's
Speaker 1: just talking over him so manically and like doesn't even
Speaker 1: yea the alligator, and it's just very like, oh of
Speaker 1: course I'm doing this, like and he's sort of blown
Speaker 1: away by her, and she's like, you know, just being
Speaker 1: super quirky, her being able to call a taxi, like
Speaker 1: her catching her on the balcony, just improvising this beautiful
Speaker 1: tweet song and the acoustic guitar which is moon River,
Speaker 1: which was written for the movie. Yeah. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: feel like that trope is I mean, it's not even
Speaker 1: fully a recognized trope at this point, but it's commented
Speaker 1: on more than other Manic pixies where we are given
Speaker 1: the context of her background and like why she puts
Speaker 1: on this persona to survive and like it it makes
Speaker 1: sense and it is explained and commented on enough that
Speaker 1: it almost doesn't bother me really too much. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't bother me that much either, especially because nobody
Speaker 1: is like shaming her for her flaw or like her
Speaker 1: being a sex worker is not even the problem, do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And so that's that's like
Speaker 1: a twist on it for me, where it's not like
Speaker 1: someone had to save her necessarily, she had to figure
Speaker 1: she had to come to this on her own that
Speaker 1: she she doesn't want. I don't know. I guess Paul
Speaker 1: does a lot of the work, but she like makes
Speaker 1: the choice to get out of the cab, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: she she has a lot of agency. The ending rings
Speaker 1: where where it was like my favorite part when I
Speaker 1: was younger, like it rings a little bit hollow for me,
Speaker 1: now because the way Paul behaves at the end of
Speaker 1: the movie is so entitled, and yeah, he's very entitled,
Speaker 1: not like you belong to me, and she says people
Speaker 1: don't belong to each other, and she's right, right, but
Speaker 1: then cut to five minutes later, she belongs to him
Speaker 1: now and the cat you know, Yeah, it's it's weird
Speaker 1: that we hear her say those lines that like definitely
Speaker 1: stuck with me when I was younger, and then minutes
Speaker 1: later she goes back on it entirely, or the story
Speaker 1: has her go back on that entirely, and now she's
Speaker 1: going to be in uh, you know, a normal relationship
Speaker 1: with Paul, which is apparently all she ever wanted, even
Speaker 1: though that's never really what she said that she wanted,
Speaker 1: and which is why I like, I don't know if
Speaker 1: she has that much agency. She's not that act of
Speaker 1: a character, like I said, She's like, yeah, she's has
Speaker 1: a few different goals and motivations, but she's the worst person.
Speaker 1: Why don't she like why I have a list that
Speaker 1: she treats people around her horribly, most notably her neighbor Mr. Uni. Oh,
Speaker 1: she who will get into a whole horribly problematic thing there,
Speaker 1: but um, there's a lot of people she doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to care about. She uses people, She is superficial and
Speaker 1: has terrible friends, and she only cares about status and money.
Speaker 1: She is hyper materialistic. She never says anything of substance.
Speaker 1: She only ever talks about like the rich man she
Speaker 1: wants to marry. She's unaware of her surroundings, and she
Speaker 1: accidentally lights a woman's head on fire. She is calling
Speaker 1: people ugly and fat all the time. She doesn't own
Speaker 1: any books. She's never been to a library before. She
Speaker 1: thinks that South America is a country, and I disagree
Speaker 1: on she does think that South America is okay. I'll
Speaker 1: give you that. I think that, you know, those things
Speaker 1: in a void are issues. But it's like she's a
Speaker 1: she's a I think she does have a clear motivation
Speaker 1: and a lot of those qualities. Especially I would argue
Speaker 1: the materialistic stuff is so rooted in that she has
Speaker 1: had two find ways to survive for so long, and
Speaker 1: and it's like, it's not like these men with money
Speaker 1: that you know, like, I guess you can make the
Speaker 1: argument that she is manipulating them, but they're doing the
Speaker 1: same thing to her. They don't feel a funk about
Speaker 1: her they want, you know, like a piece to bring
Speaker 1: to events like it is, and like fitting in with
Speaker 1: her like background as a sex worker, even though no
Speaker 1: one's gonna say sex sex worker, Like it's transactional in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And I don't know, like the
Speaker 1: whole thing with her loving Tiffany's just seems like in
Speaker 1: her life, given what we know of her, the only
Speaker 1: consistent thing you can count on our material things, because
Speaker 1: she's been let down by so many people, with the
Speaker 1: exception of her brother, who she is genuinely fighting for,
Speaker 1: but everyone else in her life, like who else can
Speaker 1: she point to? Is like, oh, here's a person that
Speaker 1: is worth more than material security, And I don't think
Speaker 1: that there is any I mean, like her husband, Like,
Speaker 1: well we already went through that where you know, the
Speaker 1: statutory rape and that you know, it's like what choice.
Speaker 1: She didn't have a choice but to marry him. So
Speaker 1: it's really like because there was no way out of
Speaker 1: that situation. It's similar like this is like a downer,
Speaker 1: but my grandmother survived the Holocaust and she's incredibly materialistic now,
Speaker 1: And like when I was younger, I used to judge
Speaker 1: her for that and now that I'm older, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: of course, Like, of course she wants to surround herself
Speaker 1: with like finery. The background on that is so dark
Speaker 1: that like she's just like I want all the jewelry,
Speaker 1: I want all this stuff. I deserve this, Like and
Speaker 1: I that completely makes sense to me, Like that tracks
Speaker 1: as like motivation totally. Yeah, I I don't know it.
Speaker 1: It makes I think we're given the context for it
Speaker 1: to make a sense. I get that she's like not
Speaker 1: likable in a lot of ways, and that definitely like
Speaker 1: the manic Pixie stuff is like present and like used
Speaker 1: as it feels almost like a short cut at some
Speaker 1: points to get us from point A to point B,
Speaker 1: especially in terms of like why is Paul in love
Speaker 1: with her manic Pixie behaviors? So easy for it to
Speaker 1: be like and that's why. And also she's um totally
Speaker 1: messed up and has a lot of problems but flawlessly
Speaker 1: beautiful the whole time. Yes, yes, I would have like
Speaker 1: sleeping with makeup on, Like like she's like when she's
Speaker 1: got the pigtails in the sweater on, and she's like,
Speaker 1: we have to go somewhere where I can get in
Speaker 1: looking like this I'm like, bit, shut up joking. You
Speaker 1: look top ten most beautiful? Are you kidding me? Right now?
Speaker 1: Than any of us all over like in our entire lives? Great? Right,
Speaker 1: So there is a thing of like romanticizing trauma and
Speaker 1: like making trauma beautiful, which is definitely at play here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then there's there's multiple points where I think it's
Speaker 1: like three different men in this movie call her crazy, um,
Speaker 1: and that is always like red flag. And there's one
Speaker 1: of my favorite ones just of like you know, like
Speaker 1: when you watch an old a movie, there are just
Speaker 1: like some clueless ways that it will interact with its
Speaker 1: characters where Doc says to her, you're talking crazy, Lula May,
Speaker 1: and she says, don't call me that, and I'm thinking crazy,
Speaker 1: and then she's like, don't call me Lula May. I
Speaker 1: guess that's the bigger issue here because people call her
Speaker 1: crazy all the time and it's just something she has
Speaker 1: to deal with. She's a kok, he's an eccentric coup.
Speaker 1: And then what that was, Paul, you know what I mean? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was. I was like interesting choice
Speaker 1: that she's never been to a library before. But then first,
Speaker 1: I mean, there are so many details of this movie
Speaker 1: I forgot. I was like, oh, but she goes back
Speaker 1: later and she's like, oh, maybe there is something to
Speaker 1: this whole. He's never been to Tiffany's, so everyone's never
Speaker 1: been places, okay, And I think it's much more common
Speaker 1: to have never been to a Tiffany's than to never
Speaker 1: have been to a library. And the I I kind
Speaker 1: of liked, I don't know the whole Tiffany's and like
Speaker 1: stealing and that whole sequence is like, this is a
Speaker 1: bit long. We get it. They like each other, but
Speaker 1: the do you know that New York City is the
Speaker 1: third character? There's everyone I just want for the listeners
Speaker 1: at home, Jamie and Caitlin both very much hated that
Speaker 1: he collapsed. Did not like that at all. I need
Speaker 1: to be revived. There's That's something that happens when we
Speaker 1: have male guests sometimes, where male guests love to say
Speaker 1: that locations are also characters. And you're like, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for telling me that. Oh I mentioned in
Speaker 1: the beginning, I'm an old movies asshole, right, like that
Speaker 1: was clear to everyone. Coreina Longworth over here, Oh god,
Speaker 1: I wish I know she's like I listened to that
Speaker 1: I listened to that show and it's real good. It's
Speaker 1: really good. Oh yeah, the Tiffany thing. I liked the
Speaker 1: comment that she makes inside of Tiffany's that like just
Speaker 1: reminded me of being poor of like, oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't buy anything. I just like, you know, I just
Speaker 1: like stare at nize things and it just like calms
Speaker 1: me down. And that fits into the character very well.
Speaker 1: Of just like the the atmosphere of materialism is more
Speaker 1: comforting than like other people. And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: class stuff too that they like get the cracker Jack
Speaker 1: ring engraves like, it's just a lot of like, you know,
Speaker 1: the way that the sales guy looks at them and
Speaker 1: is judge and that they like keep going with the bit.
Speaker 1: And also in this world, it makes no sense that
Speaker 1: he would look at these two gorgeous, well dressed people
Speaker 1: and be like, seems suss, It's like, you know, they
Speaker 1: look like they have money. Yeah, for sure, he's being
Speaker 1: a full on asshole. I think we had a similar
Speaker 1: discussion on like the Mulan Ruge episode where if you
Speaker 1: really boil down this story, it is sort of about
Speaker 1: a woman who's a sex worker who maybe is trying
Speaker 1: to get out of this lifestyle. How active she is
Speaker 1: in that pursuit is kind of up for debate, but
Speaker 1: ultimately it's about a man who comes in and so
Speaker 1: sort of rescues her from it in the sense that
Speaker 1: he's willing to provide her with actual love, unlike the
Speaker 1: other men that she's interacting with in her profession. So
Speaker 1: in that sense, this is a story like the one
Speaker 1: that we saw in Mulan Rouge and like we've seen
Speaker 1: pretty Woman and just a lot of like, oh, you're
Speaker 1: a sex worker, that must mean that you just need
Speaker 1: love from a man. I the counterpoint to that is
Speaker 1: that he is also a sex worker, yes, and that
Speaker 1: he gives up Mrs Phil He gives up her, and
Speaker 1: he gives up he starts writing again because he's like,
Speaker 1: I need to make money on my own, and he
Speaker 1: kind of also is rescuing himself and she's rescuing him
Speaker 1: a little bit. But it's not his story, it's her story.
Speaker 1: So I feel like I wish she had more agency
Speaker 1: and more she was more active in the pursuit of
Speaker 1: whatever she wants, which again I would argue, we don't
Speaker 1: like again some things a sort of defined, But I
Speaker 1: think there could be a much clearer definition of what
Speaker 1: she actually wants out of life. He's very entitled, but
Speaker 1: there is there is the thing that he leaves her
Speaker 1: alone for a long time and then she calls him
Speaker 1: to come back to the apartment, which is good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree with with both of you on on that.
Speaker 1: I think it's weird that, Like again, it's like a
Speaker 1: Hollywood third act problem where I think all the work
Speaker 1: is done to make Holly a realized enough character that
Speaker 1: the movie does not have to end the way it does.
Speaker 1: She could act with way more agency towards the end
Speaker 1: of the movie, and it would make sense with her
Speaker 1: character because we've been given the context in the background
Speaker 1: that she would have the motivation to do it. But
Speaker 1: because of how these stories are structured, she's not allowed to.
Speaker 1: There's one line that Paul says when he's breaking things
Speaker 1: off with Mrs Pallinson where he is that really I
Speaker 1: was just like, oh, come on, she can't help anyone,
Speaker 1: including herself. The thing is I can help her, and
Speaker 1: that's a nice feeling for a change, And so we
Speaker 1: know that he's going into it thinking that he is
Speaker 1: rescuing her, and like that is even though we know
Speaker 1: that she has a lot to offer him as well.
Speaker 1: He pretty explicitly articulates what his mindset is, which is
Speaker 1: that like, I can help her and that makes me
Speaker 1: feel good, and I care about her, so I'm going
Speaker 1: to and also because I love her, then she belongs
Speaker 1: to me, right, So that is like a third act
Speaker 1: isssue I have. And then there's also like one the
Speaker 1: other thing where they're both sex workers, right, and her
Speaker 1: motivation is so deeply rooted and survival. We also see her,
Speaker 1: you know, because she is a woman like treated worse like.
Speaker 1: At the very beginning, the motivation for their first hang
Speaker 1: is that mel blank fucking bugs Bunny is like chasing
Speaker 1: her out of her own apartment to the point where
Speaker 1: she has to leave out the window. These men are
Speaker 1: getting violent and like there's an implication that he's going
Speaker 1: to rape her. She's just like another day at the
Speaker 1: office exactly. She's like, he's nice when he doesn't drink,
Speaker 1: and you're just like, okay, yeah, So she has so
Speaker 1: so much more shipped even though they're both sex workers.
Speaker 1: It's clear that she has to take more ship and
Speaker 1: Paul is sort of given the luxury that I don't
Speaker 1: think she really has in this movie of he has
Speaker 1: yes and is allowed to have a creative pursuit and
Speaker 1: has the time to be able to do that, and
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem as possible for Holly. I also think
Speaker 1: that belong to each other thing is interesting because it's
Speaker 1: phrased terribly, but what he means is and what she
Speaker 1: ultimately takes away from it, and what the cat provides
Speaker 1: is that what the cat provides my new podcast is
Speaker 1: that put down roots. You have to put down roots,
Speaker 1: you have to commit to something, you have to name
Speaker 1: your cat. And that's why I like that she goes
Speaker 1: after the cat when she gets out of the car,
Speaker 1: because it's yes, belonged to each other is phrase poorly,
Speaker 1: but I do think he has a point in that,
Speaker 1: like she's she's always going to be running, and as
Speaker 1: is this Dr SEUs, wherever you go, there you are.
Speaker 1: Oh it might be I feel like that's a Doctor
Speaker 1: SEUs thing, but maybe not. But basically, like you you
Speaker 1: have to you're always going to be stuck with yourself.
Speaker 1: So she can't keep running. Like in the cab, she's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to Brazil anyway. I'm just gonna try
Speaker 1: to go anyway, um, and he's like, you love New York,
Speaker 1: you love me, you love this cat, like, deal with it.
Speaker 1: So I do think there is If she was like, actually,
Speaker 1: I do want to be this free person and he
Speaker 1: was coming from no evidence and no information, then I
Speaker 1: can see it. But also it is hard to swallow
Speaker 1: a guy being like, here's what you need. But it
Speaker 1: is well, but it's just it sucks that he has
Speaker 1: to make her see that and she doesn't come to
Speaker 1: that conclusion on her own, but she does when she
Speaker 1: gets out of the car because she kind of just
Speaker 1: gone to Brazil and being like not fuck you dude. Well,
Speaker 1: it's only because the long speech that he has delivered. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like it was still like his actions and his words
Speaker 1: poorly phrase though they maybe that gets her to realize
Speaker 1: what I mean. But yeah, that's why it would have
Speaker 1: been great if jose had been waiting for her, like
Speaker 1: if she had actually never mind, then she would have
Speaker 1: made a choice, right right, right right? Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: hate aside from his very horrible phrasing of saying that
Speaker 1: she belongs to him, I don't hate the message that
Speaker 1: he's saying, which is basically just like you need to
Speaker 1: be emotionally vulnerable if you ever want to connect with
Speaker 1: anyone and be happy, which she realizes that it just Yeah.
Speaker 1: I wish that she had come to that conclusion on
Speaker 1: her own, through her own you know, journey, rather than
Speaker 1: to have him very explicitly teach her that lesson. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and also would have liked to see maybe a bit
Speaker 1: more of her throwing that back at him and being like,
Speaker 1: you do the same thing. You don't fucking write. You
Speaker 1: say you're a writer, but you don't write. You're kind
Speaker 1: of a prototype of a of a guy who's just privileged,
Speaker 1: and just being like, I'm gonna I'm good looking, so
Speaker 1: I'm going to like let women, you know what I mean. Like,
Speaker 1: she doesn't give it back to him, She doesn't hard
Speaker 1: to challenge him as hard as I wanted her to
Speaker 1: yell at him so much when she was like, why
Speaker 1: did you bring doc to my house? But that's just
Speaker 1: I don't know why. That was the part I most
Speaker 1: strongly objected to. But I was so mad at he's
Speaker 1: so mad at it. He ambushes her with her rapit.
Speaker 1: He's just like, yeah, you're gonna want to get on
Speaker 1: a greyhound bus with this guy? I'm like what is
Speaker 1: wrong with you? Yeah? Anyway, are there any the other
Speaker 1: women at the party. Is that one boisterous woman that
Speaker 1: she hates Wildwood Wildwood who she hates and thinks it's
Speaker 1: a bore and then who passes out and everyone just
Speaker 1: lets her hit the ground. Yeah, that's another reason she's
Speaker 1: a terrible person. Isn't Like she knows that she's about
Speaker 1: to fall, and instead of Holly helping her fellow woman,
Speaker 1: she goes timber. Also, no one, no one likes clear
Speaker 1: out of the way. It reminds me of that scene
Speaker 1: at the beginning of School of Rock where Jack Black
Speaker 1: tries to do the stage dive but everyone's like he's
Speaker 1: a jerk, and then you just let him hit the floor.
Speaker 1: But that way she would be dead, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? That's off, Like she hits her head like
Speaker 1: that's not okay. She would have at least broken her
Speaker 1: not And then there's like other women at the party,
Speaker 1: Irving who's like the guy the o j the agent
Speaker 1: is trying to get with, yes, and then Who's he's
Speaker 1: kind of like chasing her around. And then there's one
Speaker 1: Asian woman, Yes, who does not does not speak. Is
Speaker 1: I mean not the worst part of the way Asian
Speaker 1: culture is portrayed in this movie for sure, but this
Speaker 1: reminded me a little bit of a few episodes ago. Well,
Speaker 1: we did the Royal Tunan bombson, just like the use
Speaker 1: of Asian culture as set dressing and characters that are
Speaker 1: never given any Yeah, and she's dressed a very specific way.
Speaker 1: I mean it was interesting that she was include did
Speaker 1: in the socialite scene. I thought that was interesting, but
Speaker 1: also dressed a certain way and doesn't talk. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: we just have no context of like who she is,
Speaker 1: why she's there. And then also there's like an interesting
Speaker 1: thing where with Jose it seems like his family is
Speaker 1: like very important politicians in Brazil, and so there's like
Speaker 1: an implication that he can't marry a white woman, which
Speaker 1: is very interesting too. I didn't catch that. I mean,
Speaker 1: she that that he's like bringing her around and she's like,
Speaker 1: we're going to get married with all his family there,
Speaker 1: and it's like very clear that that's not going to happen.
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure if that was because she was a
Speaker 1: call girl. Oh. I got the impression that like she's
Speaker 1: trying to like she was learning to cook and like
Speaker 1: trying to learn Portuguese and like fit in with his family.
Speaker 1: And I think there was like an implication that he
Speaker 1: can't marry someone who's not part of the Brazilian political
Speaker 1: family or whatever that makes sense. I thought that they
Speaker 1: were just like, hey, don't marry a sex worker. But
Speaker 1: then she has a line, well yeah, and then she
Speaker 1: has a line where she says, oh, our kids will
Speaker 1: have dark skin, but but green eyes. And I was like, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: Holly Eugenics. Yeah. Well, I was like, what do you mean, Holly,
Speaker 1: you don't have green eyes? Like what do you talk?
Speaker 1: Who are as green eyes? What are you from? Right?
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's very weird. And then of course
Speaker 1: Mickey Rooney, Yeah, I mean we should we just do it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we gotta do it. Um I'd recommend an article that
Speaker 1: was in the Wall Street Journal from a few years
Speaker 1: ago by Jeff Yang, who talks about this role at length. Um. So,
Speaker 1: this this is something that's been talked about for years.
Speaker 1: People have protested like different screenings of this because of
Speaker 1: Mickey Rooney's portrayal of the character of Mr Yunyoshi, which,
Speaker 1: of course two eight comes out with a big old
Speaker 1: defense of doing it earlier earlier he had said he
Speaker 1: regretted it, he's sorry he did it, he didn't know,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, you did this whole thing. And then
Speaker 1: he got older, I assume, more senile, and then in
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight was like, not fuck y'all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I never in defense of Mickey Rooney here, but
Speaker 1: Mickey Rooney the last couple of years of his life,
Speaker 1: pretty much anything he says is not lucid. So it's
Speaker 1: a bummer that he was even allowed to make a
Speaker 1: statement about it, because I think he was like still
Speaker 1: lucid when he was like, oh, that's incredibly offensive. I
Speaker 1: think he believed, yeah, he believed it was offensive. But
Speaker 1: I think he got upset when screenings were canceled, and
Speaker 1: that's when he was like went full defensive, like no
Speaker 1: one's ever complained about this role before. Yeah, it's really
Speaker 1: has never seen a computer before. It's really bad. It
Speaker 1: is him straight up in yellow face. He's got a
Speaker 1: terrible accent. He's treated terribly by Holly go lightly. It's
Speaker 1: such a wee, horribly offensive Carrie. It's like one of
Speaker 1: the worst, like the most racist characters ever committed to films.
Speaker 1: They put Buck teeth in his mouth, they taped his eyes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really bad, really irresponsible thing. You can think of,
Speaker 1: every insensitive thing, incredible attention to detail. It's just crazy
Speaker 1: because we did an episode recently also about Aliens, and
Speaker 1: we talked about the character of Vesquez being a brown
Speaker 1: face at the very least, Again not to defend any
Speaker 1: you know, whitewashing or anything like that, or any racist characters,
Speaker 1: but at least that character of Vesquez is treated with
Speaker 1: respect by the other characters and the movie itself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is just like the worst example, and it also
Speaker 1: doesn't add anything to the story. Like I've tweeted, I've
Speaker 1: tweeted about like loving Breakfast a Tiffany's and I've been
Speaker 1: like my kingdom for someone who will just cut a
Speaker 1: version of the movie without his character at all and
Speaker 1: the movie would make to complete sense. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: don't need it. There's a few different elements of this movie.
Speaker 1: Just from a story perspective, you don't need that character.
Speaker 1: You don't really need Sally Tomato, Like, there's not there's
Speaker 1: some there's certain things that just like some weird fat trimming,
Speaker 1: Sally Tomato comes into play because her arrest is what
Speaker 1: leads Jose to leave her, but it would make even
Speaker 1: better and just as much sense if she decides on
Speaker 1: her own to leave Jose and be with Paul, right
Speaker 1: she loves him. Yeah, I think the cat has is
Speaker 1: more of an important part of the story plot wise
Speaker 1: than any of those other things, right, yes, um so yeah,
Speaker 1: check that piece out. And and then also it Lawrence
Speaker 1: saying that you know, well, this is one of the
Speaker 1: most egregious examples of a yellow face character in film.
Speaker 1: It was happening, you know, as recently as Emma Stone.
Speaker 1: Um so it is something that still happens in in film.
Speaker 1: And will anyone ever learn ever? Yeah, I just watched
Speaker 1: Doctor Strange. Untilda Swinton's character is supposed to be Asian
Speaker 1: as well. It's like, what, there's so much whitewashing, especially
Speaker 1: I think, like I think because it's yellow face, people
Speaker 1: are willing to give it more of a pass than like,
Speaker 1: if he was straight up in black face, people would
Speaker 1: be like, well, obviously that's not I mean, some people
Speaker 1: would say it's bad, But because it's yellow face, people
Speaker 1: are like no, it's like okay, you know what you mean,
Speaker 1: Like they view it as not as bad when it
Speaker 1: very clearly is right. And similarly with Aliens too, I
Speaker 1: think they're like, that's not so bad. Yeah it is.
Speaker 1: It is. It is so bad, and it sucks because
Speaker 1: it's otherwise like a good, feel good movie. And then
Speaker 1: you're like, like, I really do please someone out there
Speaker 1: edit together the movie without those scenes, and it would
Speaker 1: be just as good. Right, It's really it's really frustrating,
Speaker 1: And at the time I was trying to like figure
Speaker 1: out like, Okay, what did this add to this movie
Speaker 1: at the time, and it's just like I think it
Speaker 1: was intended as like a slap sticky like, oh, wouldn't
Speaker 1: it be funny, which is just makes it even worse.
Speaker 1: And it's also totally consistent. It's like a completely different
Speaker 1: it's taking place in a different movie. Right, It's not good.
Speaker 1: It's bad. Can you imagine if you just like lost
Speaker 1: your keys all the time and then you woke up
Speaker 1: your neighbor. If you have a twenty six keys made
Speaker 1: to your apartment, you can get in, but you like
Speaker 1: consistently like buzz your neighbor and wake him up all
Speaker 1: the time, and then in order to like appease him
Speaker 1: for a moment, you say, yeah, you can take nude
Speaker 1: pictures of me sometime. I did that with my roommate
Speaker 1: Yourn yesterday. Kind of we just just a moment in
Speaker 1: praise of Emily Eustace and for sure Patricia think that
Speaker 1: she is so cool and like for this time she's
Speaker 1: so confidently cheating on her husband that it is fun
Speaker 1: to watch. And then and then you see this breakup
Speaker 1: scene between her and Paul, which I thought was like
Speaker 1: kind of sad but also kind of I don't know,
Speaker 1: I was surprised, Yeah, because we only see her three
Speaker 1: She doesn't freak out. She's sort of very like practical
Speaker 1: minded about it. She's not like she doesn't like But
Speaker 1: it's a little sad too, where it's like the way
Speaker 1: that she exerts her control over the situation with her
Speaker 1: and Paul is with her money and so when he
Speaker 1: makes the emotionally based decision of like I'm falling in
Speaker 1: love with someone, I need to break this off. I
Speaker 1: can't do this anymore, she's like, oh, how do I
Speaker 1: retain my power in this situation? And she tries to
Speaker 1: give him money, and that was just like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: My assumption was that she was I thought I always
Speaker 1: think that she's giving him the thousand dollar check to
Speaker 1: go on a trip because she thinks that they will
Speaker 1: spend time together, realize they're not in love, and that
Speaker 1: he'll come back. But I always thought that she was
Speaker 1: like saying, like go for it. Then, like I'll even
Speaker 1: pay for it, because this isn't gonna work out, so
Speaker 1: you know what I mean exactly? Yeah, Like, enjoy your trip,
Speaker 1: realize you're both people, fall out of love, You'll come back,
Speaker 1: you know what you mean. And then he goes into
Speaker 1: his closet and he's like, find another fuck boy, goodbye.
Speaker 1: Hopefully he has the same length of arms as me,
Speaker 1: so you don't even have to go to a tailor.
Speaker 1: Starts toss out. It's great, So she'll be fine, She'll
Speaker 1: she'll find another young, strapping man. Yeah, I want to
Speaker 1: be writers. Yeah, I really like that character. She's a
Speaker 1: feminist icon. He calls Paul while her husband is in
Speaker 1: the room, just like, hey, my husband came home early. Gross,
Speaker 1: so I guess we can't see each other today. He's
Speaker 1: right there. Yeah, So, I mean, I don't know why
Speaker 1: she's the icon of this movie. For me, We don't
Speaker 1: know what the husband's deal is. She just like she's
Speaker 1: just like I want to pay for sex and I
Speaker 1: don't care. Maybe they're in an ethical non monogamy relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's why she is able to make the call
Speaker 1: while he's in the room, right, Like, God, I don't
Speaker 1: I guess I sort of just assume, like, well, it
Speaker 1: was a marriage in n so it probably was bad
Speaker 1: and she could not get out of it being disgraced. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and likes likes her younger men. Yeah, good for her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's also Yeah, she's like an older woman who's just
Speaker 1: I just I like her a lot. Yeah. Well, speaking
Speaker 1: of marriage and that, like the fact that Holly is
Speaker 1: trying to pursue two different men who are rich and
Speaker 1: she thinks that she's going to be able to marry
Speaker 1: into money. I get that that is maybe a logical
Speaker 1: next step for someone in her profession. Even so, the
Speaker 1: fact that she is trying to marry for money and
Speaker 1: not actually pursue like any of her other talents or
Speaker 1: anything like that, to just try to get a job
Speaker 1: and earn money for herself. Where would she work, I
Speaker 1: don't know, could go to work at Tiffany's not really Yeah,
Speaker 1: well she doesn't have a bunking, you know, she's a bumpkin.
Speaker 1: She doesn't really have a lot of other options. They
Speaker 1: have many options, and it's not d there's not a
Speaker 1: lot of avenues for women. You really only had you
Speaker 1: had to get married, right, It's like sex work does
Speaker 1: seem like one of really the only routes for Holly
Speaker 1: to live the life that she wanted to live at
Speaker 1: that time, because it seems like if her motivation, her
Speaker 1: ultimate motivation is she's waiting for her brother to get
Speaker 1: out of the army so that they can go off
Speaker 1: and live together, and she's trying to save so she
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be tied down because that means when
Speaker 1: Fred gets out of the army, then they can't go
Speaker 1: through with the plan. And so, yeah, she has so
Speaker 1: few She doesn't have an education, she's never been to
Speaker 1: a library, like yeah, yeah, and she is like coming
Speaker 1: from a trauma background and I don't don't think she
Speaker 1: has a lot of And honestly, like that was that
Speaker 1: was like a valid career path, like marrying rich. It
Speaker 1: was like a valid career path to get out of shit.
Speaker 1: I mean women used to go to college to meet
Speaker 1: their husbands so that you can like try to move
Speaker 1: up in class move up in your station. She's already
Speaker 1: pretty wild that she got out of She's in Alabama, right,
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's from that she got from Alabama, Okay,
Speaker 1: that she got out of there anyway to go in
Speaker 1: the sixties to be in New York. Yeah, Like it's
Speaker 1: a miracle then she and like a testament to her own,
Speaker 1: you know, like cleverness and tenaciousness, that she is able
Speaker 1: to live the life she has even though it is
Speaker 1: unsustainable and requires constant like hustling, etcetera. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think I left this viewing with a better understanding
Speaker 1: of Holly. I still like that. I still like the movie.
Speaker 1: It's darker and sadder than I remember. And I think
Speaker 1: that's like a super common I know, you to forget
Speaker 1: sadder and darker than I think people who only look
Speaker 1: at it for the aesthetic give it credit for Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and and it goes without saying, but we
Speaker 1: should say it is a very white movie. Uh is.
Speaker 1: The most prominent non white character is played by a
Speaker 1: white person. So there you go. That is just a
Speaker 1: version of New York that only exists in fiction and
Speaker 1: is frustrating too. And and you know, as we come
Speaker 1: up upon on almost every movie we encounter a very
Speaker 1: hetero movie. And I think I had the movie like
Speaker 1: adapted the character of Paul as I mean, but then
Speaker 1: we don't like then you don't get the love story. Well,
Speaker 1: which is fine for me, but I also don't necessarily
Speaker 1: want like I mean, and this is you know, early sixties,
Speaker 1: so if there is a gay character, they would have
Speaker 1: to be coded gay because of the production code, like
Speaker 1: you know, that wouldn't have flown. But I just, man,
Speaker 1: I haven't read the book. Is he still fucking the
Speaker 1: life even though he's gay, he's coded as gay? Um?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I haven't I didn't reread the book
Speaker 1: before this. I just went to read the He is
Speaker 1: definitely still like coded as a sex worker. So I
Speaker 1: think that, yeah, it's possible that he was having sex
Speaker 1: with Valens. And because she is a character in the
Speaker 1: novella A double check. Yeah, how explicit because it seems
Speaker 1: like even more so in the book than in the movie.
Speaker 1: There's I don't think it would say explicitly that he's
Speaker 1: sucking her, So my guess is it would be more implications. Okay, yeah, interesting,
Speaker 1: It would have been a cool movie if if he
Speaker 1: was quoted as gay and they just helped each other
Speaker 1: as friends. That's interesting or right. It would have been
Speaker 1: even cooler if he was just allowed to be explicitly
Speaker 1: gay and then they were just well yeah, I'm talking
Speaker 1: about now you remake it. Now he's just like played
Speaker 1: who's he played by Billy Eichner. Well, even even in
Speaker 1: the book. He does say in the book that he's
Speaker 1: in love with Holly go lightly, but it is open
Speaker 1: interpretation of like what kind of love for he's bisexual? Right,
Speaker 1: we don't know, we don't know dead he cannot tell us.
Speaker 1: And on that note, let's take a quick break and
Speaker 1: we'll be back in the sec And here we are.
Speaker 1: We're back, We're back. Okay. Does anyone have any other
Speaker 1: thoughts about the movie? No, I mean, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: remember if it if it passes the Bechtel test, but
Speaker 1: we'll get there. The only other female character that gets
Speaker 1: to speak, I'm pretty sure, is that female police officer. Well,
Speaker 1: when Holly's arrested, she goes knock it off and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, a woman spoke a female police officer.
Speaker 1: Though he very progressive. There's no female detectives, but a
Speaker 1: female arresting officer. Yes, there's also a female librarian who
Speaker 1: keeps yelling at Holly because she's never been in a
Speaker 1: library before and doesn't know that she needs to keep
Speaker 1: her voice down. So yeah, let's talk about if the
Speaker 1: movie passes the Bechtel test or not. There are very
Speaker 1: few scenes where women interact. Mag Wildwood and Holly at
Speaker 1: the party party. I had that that conversation is not
Speaker 1: passing because they mentioned Mr Unio. She and the two
Speaker 1: men the mag brings to the party, Jose and Rusty
Speaker 1: So and she's talking to them and Audrey Hepburn says,
Speaker 1: you're being a bore and that's kind of the only right.
Speaker 1: So I didn't have that scene as passing. But Jamie,
Speaker 1: you said I had, Holly mag Darling, you're being a bore.
Speaker 1: Mag says, shut up, But that does. And then she
Speaker 1: talks to you, Emily Eustace whatever, what's her life? They
Speaker 1: talk in the beginning with Paul when they meet outside. Well,
Speaker 1: I didn't write that, Paul. Paul introduces them, Holly says
Speaker 1: how do you do? And Mrs Valensen says how do
Speaker 1: you do? But doesn't look at her. She looks away
Speaker 1: because she hates her so much, and then he says, oh,
Speaker 1: this is my interior decorator. Yeah, but that's all they
Speaker 1: that's that. This was just like, how do you do?
Speaker 1: How do you do? We see a few women interacting
Speaker 1: at Holly's party, but we don't know any of their names.
Speaker 1: Holly does talk to that librarian, but we never learned
Speaker 1: her name, or the police officer or the police office. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I don't think she and the police officers are
Speaker 1: actually interactive. Is more like a side by side like yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I guess there are a couple to line
Speaker 1: exchanges that technically passed the Becto test. But given the movie,
Speaker 1: it should do a lot better, you would think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think Mickey Rooney's character should just decimate like
Speaker 1: that's like negative one thousand points? Ye, any point earned? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a negative on thousand. Yeah. Well, shall we the
Speaker 1: movie on our Nipple scale for new listeners. We have
Speaker 1: a special rating scale that we've devised to judge the
Speaker 1: movies that we've talked about. Yes, it is called the
Speaker 1: Nipple scale. Get used to that phrase. You'll be hearing
Speaker 1: it a lot. Is where Kalin, myself and our guest
Speaker 1: I'll rate the movie we just discussed on a scale
Speaker 1: of zero to five nipples based on how the movie
Speaker 1: treats its female characters, not on how much you like
Speaker 1: the movie. The best part of the nipple scale is
Speaker 1: you get to describe them. In fact, you have to
Speaker 1: describe them, and you get to give them two characters
Speaker 1: in the movie, or Alfa Billina if you want to write. So,
Speaker 1: that's our nipple scale for me. I think I'm gonna
Speaker 1: give it one nipple. I think it's interesting too explore
Speaker 1: a story about a woman who's a sex worker who
Speaker 1: falls in love with another sex worker. I think that
Speaker 1: this movie, though, and it could be due to some
Speaker 1: restrictions of the era and the production code and things
Speaker 1: like that, but I think it doesn't do a whole
Speaker 1: lot to explore all the interesting facets of that premise.
Speaker 1: Number one. Number two, I think that Holly go Lightly
Speaker 1: is a bad person who is careless and who mistreats people,
Speaker 1: and she's like a prototype of the very annoying manic
Speaker 1: pixie dream girl trope that we've come across several times
Speaker 1: and that I don't especially care for. Um. I think
Speaker 1: that her desires and her motivations are arguably not that
Speaker 1: well defined, and everything we do know about her and
Speaker 1: what she wants is tied to a man in some way.
Speaker 1: She wants to marry a rich man so that she
Speaker 1: can take care of her brother, so at least that
Speaker 1: motivation isn't entirely selfish, but men are still the source
Speaker 1: of her desires, her motivations, and pretty much all she
Speaker 1: does on screen is talk about men. And then also
Speaker 1: after her brother dies, she just goes right back to
Speaker 1: wanting to marry a rich dude. So it feels like
Speaker 1: just kind of inconsistent and sort of like negates the
Speaker 1: motivations that had been established for her earlier. Then finally
Speaker 1: it takes a different man, Paul, to basically fix her
Speaker 1: and to inspire her character arc. Also, and we didn't
Speaker 1: really talk about this that much, but her relationships to
Speaker 1: the other women in the movie are generally like very petty,
Speaker 1: very catty. It's like women feeling though they have to
Speaker 1: compete against each other, women not treating each other with
Speaker 1: kindness and respect. So it's just kind of reinforces those
Speaker 1: stereotypes of like women are always fighting, women are catty
Speaker 1: towards each other. And I understand that this is a
Speaker 1: movie that came out many decades ago. Things were very
Speaker 1: different back then, historical context was very different back then.
Speaker 1: But I still find that there's not that much redeemable
Speaker 1: about the character of Holly, about the movie itself. I
Speaker 1: just think that it could have gone in much more
Speaker 1: interesting directions, explored her experience in a more interesting way,
Speaker 1: had it so that everything that she does and wants
Speaker 1: to do isn't tied to men in some way. So
Speaker 1: one nipple for me, and I will give it to
Speaker 1: Mrs Fallonson because she is pretty dope feminist icon Falensen.
Speaker 1: I man, I hope that I'm not being too generous.
Speaker 1: I'm wanting to give it a two or two and
Speaker 1: a half. Yeah, I'm going to go with it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: The thing is that's a metric and it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: But I'm so stressed. Sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna give
Speaker 1: it two and a half. I mean, it goes without
Speaker 1: saying that the way this movie treats race, especially in
Speaker 1: regards to Mickey Rooney's character, is abhorrent and terrible and bad,
Speaker 1: and there's no excuse for it. I agree that this
Speaker 1: movie should have it cut entirely, and it wouldn't have
Speaker 1: much of a difference on the movie, but as it
Speaker 1: pertains to the treatment of women specifically, I do think
Speaker 1: that Holly go lightly. I think she does have a motivation,
Speaker 1: and I think that she it is clearly she comes
Speaker 1: by her fault in a way that is clearly explained
Speaker 1: by the movie and is grounded, and she loses points
Speaker 1: for the manic pixie dreamgirl stuff, and the movie loses
Speaker 1: points for how it sort of botches the third act.
Speaker 1: I think in a lot of ways, in the way
Speaker 1: that the message of being emotionally vulnerable is communicated as
Speaker 1: ownership to a man, and you know, the last fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of issues of how her characters treated,
Speaker 1: but in the way that she's built and the portrayal
Speaker 1: of sex work, even though it can't be explicitly stated
Speaker 1: in movies at all, at this point, she's treated with respect.
Speaker 1: I think she's called out for for faults in ways
Speaker 1: that for the most part, with the exception of her
Speaker 1: being called crazy, with the exception of her being chased
Speaker 1: out of her own apartment, with the exception of her
Speaker 1: romantic interest bringing her rapist to her door, with the
Speaker 1: exception of those things, she is for the most part
Speaker 1: treated as if not with respect, because she's not necessarily
Speaker 1: treat with respect. But I do think she is treated
Speaker 1: as like a capable character who for most of the
Speaker 1: movie has agency in how she lives her life given
Speaker 1: the restraints that are put on her by the world
Speaker 1: and the era. Yeah, I think I'm I'm ignoring like
Speaker 1: the time period and the socio economic cultural situation of
Speaker 1: the early sixties. Yeah, I think that there's a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff that she doesn't do here. But but at
Speaker 1: the time, I think it's like implied just because this
Speaker 1: is the world that it came out, and then she
Speaker 1: couldn't do that and that wasn't an option for her
Speaker 1: really at all. So I'm gonna give it two and
Speaker 1: a half nipples. I I do like Holly, and I
Speaker 1: love Mrs Allenson, and so I'm gonna give a nip
Speaker 1: to Miss Valenson, a nip to Holly, and then I'm
Speaker 1: gonna toss half a nip to the one who goes
Speaker 1: knock it up. I liked her a lot um. I
Speaker 1: agree with everything Jamie said. You put it really well,
Speaker 1: and I just think it's so cool. In a lot
Speaker 1: of the old movies that I really love. I'm constantly
Speaker 1: surprised by the way women are portrayed and that they
Speaker 1: are just speaking purely in terms of being sexual beings,
Speaker 1: like the way that they're portrayed as like being allowed
Speaker 1: to be that way. And I guess I had this
Speaker 1: idea in my mind of women kind of only being
Speaker 1: these like fifties or early sixties kind of like housewives,
Speaker 1: and so I'm constantly or or even like that premarital
Speaker 1: sex might be seen as bad, but like that there's
Speaker 1: so many characters and especially typified by Holly Go Lately,
Speaker 1: but just in a lot of these older movies, there's
Speaker 1: so many female characters whose motivations are sex or who
Speaker 1: like are having sex. And when I started watching old movies,
Speaker 1: I was really surprised by that because it's today seen
Speaker 1: as such a thing. Like women like movies where women
Speaker 1: are sexual are like given a standing ovation And I'm like,
Speaker 1: but we've been doing this. I don't know why, like
Speaker 1: we have this. I think people haven't watched a lot
Speaker 1: of these old movies, so they see it a certain
Speaker 1: way and they think that this movie is about like
Speaker 1: an upscale woman in a tiara who just buys things
Speaker 1: from Tiffany's and like they haven't watched it, so they
Speaker 1: don't know that it's actually about like class and trauma
Speaker 1: and like sex work and you know, all these things
Speaker 1: that and that she doesn't buy anything from Tiffany. She does,
Speaker 1: she doesn't even eat breakfast inside you guys. Although the
Speaker 1: fun fact this is like the first time Tiffany has
Speaker 1: allowed anyone to film inside a Tiffany's Oh no kidding,
Speaker 1: that's cool. So yeah, So I just and I and
Speaker 1: that we never we almost never see male sex workers
Speaker 1: treated with respect or like, you know, male sex workers
Speaker 1: who are with women, although I guess that show hung
Speaker 1: but like, who's in that chock, Turvis Jane. Wow, if
Speaker 1: I got that right, that would be incredible. And so
Speaker 1: I just think it's surprising, like maybe I'm giving it
Speaker 1: too maybe I'm going to give it three nipples, and
Speaker 1: maybe I'm giving it too many nipples because I was
Speaker 1: just so shocked by how chill the movie was about
Speaker 1: so many things and for its era, and how like
Speaker 1: misunderstood it is by like anyone who's ever had a
Speaker 1: poster of it in their dorm room. It is Thomas Jane.
Speaker 1: By the way, Wow, guys, take me on your trivia team.
Speaker 1: I know so much useless stuff and so and I
Speaker 1: think it's trying as hard as it can for it's time.
Speaker 1: I will give it negative five thousand nipples for Mickey Rooney.
Speaker 1: And I can't even begin to imagine what they were thinking.
Speaker 1: I guess they thought it was it was a comic relief,
Speaker 1: even racism aside, which it never is. But it totally
Speaker 1: does not fit with the rest of the movie. It
Speaker 1: takes away from the movie. Even if even if the
Speaker 1: role was played by an Asian actor, even if the
Speaker 1: role was toned down by it would still totally not
Speaker 1: fit in with the rest of the movie. As a
Speaker 1: like screenwriter, it doesn't make any sense to me, there's
Speaker 1: no point to it. The party scene also seems totally
Speaker 1: inconsistent because there's some like slapsticky physical humor there. Just
Speaker 1: I was like, what is this supposed to be funny?
Speaker 1: Like what I think this movie was supposed to be
Speaker 1: like a rom COMI thing of its time, But the
Speaker 1: rum and the com feels so separate. It's just, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no there's no overlap. Yeah, So some of the
Speaker 1: characters feel very grounded, and then some of the characters
Speaker 1: are in a different movie and that is either poor
Speaker 1: screenwriting or poor directing or a fun mix. Who are
Speaker 1: you giving your nipples to to to to Failstein filin Stein,
Speaker 1: she rocks one to Alli go lightly. I guess the
Speaker 1: nipple only go to women. They can go to anyway
Speaker 1: you want, known to men, animals, people who aren't even
Speaker 1: in the movie objects. I want to give one to
Speaker 1: the cat. I want one to the cat. Absolutely. Cat
Speaker 1: is wonderful. It did its own stunts like that was
Speaker 1: that was such good acting by that cat. That cat
Speaker 1: ruled I mean the sea, the scene where the cats
Speaker 1: playing with the cigarette that I mean, that cat was
Speaker 1: trained so well. I loved it. The cat was wet
Speaker 1: and didn't freak out. Yeah, you're just like, what is what?
Speaker 1: This cat's a star, a cactor, cactor? Yeah, cat actor anyway,
Speaker 1: all right, well, Gabby, thank you so much for being here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me, and and thanks for doing a
Speaker 1: movie that you fucking hate. You're so welcome. I'm happy
Speaker 1: to make the sacrifice for this podcast and for you, Gabby.
Speaker 1: I just I wanted to try to get like something
Speaker 1: super old in here. Yeah, just for your your fans
Speaker 1: that are like seventy to eighty, like really your demo
Speaker 1: which we have. Yeah, I'm sure shout out to our
Speaker 1: older fans. Thank you so much for listening. Um, Gabby,
Speaker 1: where can people follow you online? Do you have anything
Speaker 1: you'd like to plug? Sure? My podcast Bad with Money
Speaker 1: is currently on season three. It's out now and um,
Speaker 1: it's about money, but it's tries not to be stressful,
Speaker 1: just trying to break the taboo. Guys. Thank you. And
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Gabby Doune and on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Gabby Road because I don't understand branding. Uh yeah, and
Speaker 1: then I I had a book come out last year
Speaker 1: called I Hate Everyone But You and it was a
Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller and it's ay a novel but
Speaker 1: also like a novel regular And you can get that
Speaker 1: wherever books are sold. Yeah, not at Tiffany's though, they
Speaker 1: don't sell books, not at you go to lots. You
Speaker 1: could go to the library though, but you should buy
Speaker 1: You should buy Gabby's book Tiffanese get it engraved. Yes,
Speaker 1: you can find us. We are now on the House
Speaker 1: staff Works Network Wore Network Girls We're a little Bitches.
Speaker 1: But you can also still find us on our Matreon, um, Patreon,
Speaker 1: dot com, slash backtel Cast. Five bucks a month gets
Speaker 1: you two extra episodes. Wow, amazing. For our new listeners,
Speaker 1: you can follow us on social media at Bechtel Cast
Speaker 1: on both Twitter and Instagram, and we also have a
Speaker 1: Facebook page just called the Bechtel Cast. Nothing Tricky, Nothing Tricky.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter dot com at Jamie
Speaker 1: loftus Help, and you can find me at Caitlin Darante.
Speaker 1: And then for our existing listeners, thanks for always being here,
Speaker 1: Thanks for all of your support. Thank you guys for
Speaker 1: doing this show. It's so fun. Thank you love doing
Speaker 1: it and we're glad you could be here. Should we
Speaker 1: talk on your upgrade? Thank you so much. And I said,
Speaker 1: what about Breakfast a Tiffanies? And I said, I think
Speaker 1: I remember the film, and as I recall, we both
Speaker 1: kind of liked it. Well you recall correctly because I
Speaker 1: did not like it. But that is still one thing
Speaker 1: we've got that passed the PacTel test. Yeah, goodbye,