Speaker 1: On the beck Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies
Speaker 1: have wenen inum? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Speaker 1: Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
Speaker 1: it with the beck del Cast. Hello listeners, you're about
Speaker 1: to hear an episode that we recorded live at the
Speaker 1: Ruby in Los Angeles on the movie Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Speaker 1: And speaking of episodes recorded live at the Ruby in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, we are doing another one on November nine
Speaker 1: pm and we're covering Home Alone. And this is a
Speaker 1: show you don't want to miss because it's our last
Speaker 1: show at that location because the Ruby is moving to
Speaker 1: a different spot in l A. But that location has
Speaker 1: been our home for live l A shows for over
Speaker 1: a year, so it's very special to us and we
Speaker 1: want you to come hang out with us there one
Speaker 1: last time. Tickets and details are at Bechtel cast dot com.
Speaker 1: Click on the live tab and we'll see you there.
Speaker 1: Enjoy the episode. Hello, thank you for coming to the
Speaker 1: life Stow. This is the Bechtel Cast. Welcome, Welcome, you
Speaker 1: recome to see I see some T shirts in the crowd.
Speaker 1: I wait, I need to get I have too many
Speaker 1: you all use situate. I'll talk. Hello, Um, I'm dressed
Speaker 1: as Brad Brad Majors from tonight's film. I'm dresses I
Speaker 1: don't know. I was like, it's Halloween where black, and
Speaker 1: then I didn't have time to go to CVS to
Speaker 1: get fishnets. But if I had, you would have been like, oh,
Speaker 1: I get it right. So just imagine I would run
Speaker 1: that errand I was supposed to run. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: you've got lipstick on. I think that's great. That's more
Speaker 1: effort than I would normally demonstrate at this event. Uh so, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I love you, Bradfit. It's incredible. Thank you. The
Speaker 1: jacket the Bradfit. The jacket isn't quite right, and I
Speaker 1: apologize for that, but don't apologize. That's right. Women apologize
Speaker 1: too much. And yeah, we're putting it. I've been saying
Speaker 1: it for years. Women need to stop apologizing for their
Speaker 1: Brad cosplay. They really do. You're doing great. Thank you anyway.
Speaker 1: My name is Caitlin Dronte, my name is Jamie Loftus,
Speaker 1: and we thank you. We are the Bechtel Cast. We
Speaker 1: talk about the representation of women in film and how
Speaker 1: it's usually pretty abysmal. We use the Bechtel test as
Speaker 1: a jumping off point, and that is a media metric
Speaker 1: also sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, that requires that
Speaker 1: two female identifying characters with names talk to each other
Speaker 1: about something other than a man. Does it normally have
Speaker 1: an in movie three to one? No, we've got a
Speaker 1: doozy tonight. You know, there's a real like shaky hand.
Speaker 1: Hard to say because I think the things that I mean.
Speaker 1: And spoiler alert too if anyone is a new listener
Speaker 1: on this episode. Uh, this show has very little to
Speaker 1: do with the actual Bechdel test, but in terms of
Speaker 1: determining it for this movie, it's very hard because there's
Speaker 1: molt there's I think three or four layers into determining,
Speaker 1: and then there's also like a consent question that has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with gender that you're just like there watching,
Speaker 1: So it's unclear. This is a wild one where we're
Speaker 1: very excited and we've been getting this request forever. Um
Speaker 1: and tonight's tonight. Tonight's the night on it by round
Speaker 1: of applause. Who has seen the movie Rocky Horror Picture Show? Wow,
Speaker 1: I think it's done your homework alright, looking carefully, Uh,
Speaker 1: this is anyone not seen it. Clap clap, Yes, Okay,
Speaker 1: we are not going to do what Rocky Horror does,
Speaker 1: which is humiliate you if you've never seen the movie.
Speaker 1: It's fine. Not everyone can see every movie. Isn't that
Speaker 1: a fun community aspect where if you haven't done what
Speaker 1: everyone else has done, you're absolutely humiliated, Uh, in front
Speaker 1: of strangers. I think that's a very chill entry point
Speaker 1: to a community. Definitely, that's great, and I think it's
Speaker 1: brave of you to to show up to an event
Speaker 1: about a movie you have not seen. Yes, good enough, Yes,
Speaker 1: we love that. Okay. So we are talking about Rocky
Speaker 1: Horror Picture Show tonight and we have a guest with us,
Speaker 1: returning guest to the show. We love her. Yes, you
Speaker 1: might remember her from our Scream episode. She is a
Speaker 1: comedian and a writer for Nurdist and ThunderCats Roar on
Speaker 1: Cartoon Network. It's Joan Ford. Hi. I've always wanted to
Speaker 1: be a Halloween tradition and now I am one. Yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: welcome back, Thanks for having me. So. I mean, since
Speaker 1: we're commenting unfits an incredible seemed Halloween fit, I feel like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I decided, I'm like, I'm I'm backstage decided, I'm like Halloween, Janet.
Speaker 1: I feel like this is what Janet. She wouldn't get
Speaker 1: a full costume, but she'd wear like a cute dress
Speaker 1: with like skeletons on it. Like, yeah, I know native,
Speaker 1: I'm getting the spirit of it. So, John, what's your
Speaker 1: history relationship with this iconic film? Okay? I was growing up,
Speaker 1: like I was like in my like early like ten
Speaker 1: eleven years, um, you know, the early, the early, the
Speaker 1: tens and eleven, whatever you call it. That was the
Speaker 1: early ones when like I think it was, this was
Speaker 1: just hitting its twentieth anniversary. I remember like Fox was
Speaker 1: like playing it. It was like Fox is making like
Speaker 1: a big deal of like after Herman's Head, It's time
Speaker 1: for where the first network broadcast of of the Rocky
Speaker 1: Horror Picture Show, And like I did not know what
Speaker 1: this thing was. I had kind of heard inklings of
Speaker 1: it like as a as a like cult movie, but
Speaker 1: I didn't really know what it was. And I remember
Speaker 1: seeing it for the first time like on that broadcast
Speaker 1: and being kind of like transfixed by it but not
Speaker 1: quite knowing why. Like I remember going back to my
Speaker 1: like Catholic grade school the next day and telling everyone
Speaker 1: about like and there's this he's like a transvestite. And
Speaker 1: I didn't know quite what I was saying, but it
Speaker 1: got me in trouble um. But yeah, I was just
Speaker 1: like this is so I was like, I was like,
Speaker 1: this is very cool. Like I thought this I had
Speaker 1: discovered a cool thing, which I had, but not many
Speaker 1: people everyone agreed, but I was like, this is cool,
Speaker 1: Like he's a transdestite. It's a cool thing, right, And
Speaker 1: everyone's like and uh and yes, that was like my
Speaker 1: first memory of it. And then it kind of like
Speaker 1: it's a thing that I mean, you know, I was
Speaker 1: a closeted, queer, white theater kid in suburban America, so
Speaker 1: it kept creeping up in my life. I remember once
Speaker 1: like I got home from like a thing and my
Speaker 1: dad was like, hey, like I taped Rocky Horror Picture
Speaker 1: Show for you off of Comedy Central, and like by
Speaker 1: that time, I like internalized that it wasn't something I
Speaker 1: was supposed to like. So I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: like that thing. I don't want to watch that thing.
Speaker 1: Why did you take that for me? And I think
Speaker 1: that's when my dad like stopped being like, well, no
Speaker 1: longer am I going to like try to involve myself
Speaker 1: in their queer identity. That's it. I'm giving up. I
Speaker 1: turned them off to it and strike and it was
Speaker 1: one strike yes, um, and then yeah and then I
Speaker 1: I went to the shadow cast in like high school,
Speaker 1: and then in college and again when I moved out here.
Speaker 1: So it's just a thing that's been like ever a
Speaker 1: present thing in my life, like from a very early age.
Speaker 1: The tens in the eleven Yes, the tens and elevens. Yes,
Speaker 1: a bottle of them, Jamie, how about you. I got
Speaker 1: into Rocky Horror. I think around high school. I know
Speaker 1: the first time I went. I was like it was
Speaker 1: my freshman year in high school. My mom was very
Speaker 1: into Rocky Horror. Um the there everyone's laughing because maybe
Speaker 1: some people have already seen the pick. But she tweeted
Speaker 1: at the betel Cast account of her, at age seventeen,
Speaker 1: wearing really not many clothes. That was her. That was
Speaker 1: my mom. I thought that was you maybe No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I there the pictures of me are far less cool
Speaker 1: than the ones that were tweeted. I'm wearing far more clothes. No,
Speaker 1: they're my mom like in because you know, I grew
Speaker 1: up in like a suburban area as well, where queer
Speaker 1: community was kind of scant to be found. And my
Speaker 1: my mom when she was younger, like loved going. She
Speaker 1: went every single month. She was a stand She was there,
Speaker 1: she knew it all, she loved wearing Leo tarts in public.
Speaker 1: She just was there. So she was like really encouraging
Speaker 1: me to go. When I was a young teen and
Speaker 1: I went, I went with my cousin. I think we
Speaker 1: went maybe like once a year when I was in
Speaker 1: high school to the West Bridgewater showing. I mean, if
Speaker 1: all my Westbridgewater heads listening to this, it's a very
Speaker 1: small theater, but a lot of enthusiasm. And then I
Speaker 1: think I went like once or twice more in college
Speaker 1: and then when I lived here. But I've I've been
Speaker 1: like I didn't want to say, like five or six times. Okay,
Speaker 1: very good. What about you, Caitlin. I've never been to
Speaker 1: a live screening. I've seen this movie probably only a
Speaker 1: handful of times. I saw it for the first time
Speaker 1: in college when I was getting one of two film
Speaker 1: degrees that I would eventually have. But I I like,
Speaker 1: I thought it was like cool and campy and subversive.
Speaker 1: But you you may know this about me. I'm not
Speaker 1: a huge fan of musicals, although this is one that
Speaker 1: I tolerate quite a bit more than than others. But
Speaker 1: for me, it comes down to story and the story
Speaker 1: of the because again, I do have a master's degree
Speaker 1: in screenwriting from Boston University that I simply hate to mention.
Speaker 1: It's not what one would call yeah, not a not
Speaker 1: a classic three act structure. I think that there's because
Speaker 1: all three of us have watched it multiple times in
Speaker 1: preparation for this, and between the three of us we
Speaker 1: really tried to place together like, oh, I think that
Speaker 1: they maybe thought they were foreshadowing there, yeah, yeah, like
Speaker 1: when do we find out these characters are aliens? Um.
Speaker 1: This was the first time I watched in and completely
Speaker 1: realized Brad and Janet have absolutely no bearing on the
Speaker 1: actual like plot of the film. They could be a
Speaker 1: raised from the story and the film every the film
Speaker 1: would end the exact same way it ended. Yes, if
Speaker 1: they had never arrived, they had never arrived them even
Speaker 1: like them arriving as an inciting incident. If we're talking
Speaker 1: your degree and thank you so much, makes it doesn't incite.
Speaker 1: It used to incite what was going to happen anyway, Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: it incites nothing like the party was going to happen,
Speaker 1: the brutal murder of famous rock star meat Load was
Speaker 1: going to happen. And they're not even in that they
Speaker 1: are audience circuits in the most literal way, and that
Speaker 1: they are just audience members who I get to have
Speaker 1: sex with the with the main character at one point. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's the best audience circuits. I like to think that
Speaker 1: Brad and Janet inspire riff Raff and Magenta to rise
Speaker 1: up against their bourgeois oppressor and take over. Right the end, well,
Speaker 1: here's Mike. But I was getting a lot of like
Speaker 1: Cerce and Jamie Lanister energy from them because they keeping like,
Speaker 1: we're siblings, but we're kissing and you're like, let's not
Speaker 1: go here, like but then at the end they're like, no,
Speaker 1: we are still siblings who are fucking. But the twist
Speaker 1: is we're alien siblings who are fucking. You're like, all right,
Speaker 1: I guess that's a twist. I don't know who you
Speaker 1: get who you was right? Well with that? Should we
Speaker 1: get into the story that the words story and plot
Speaker 1: loosely for this movie, but here it is the three
Speaker 1: of us will we'll do our fare at Truly, if
Speaker 1: anyone in the crowd has exposition some little seedling that
Speaker 1: was planted that we totally missed, let us know. It's
Speaker 1: very possible. Maybe we're bad viewers. Yeah, you guys, educate us.
Speaker 1: We're blaming ourselves. I know we just talked about it.
Speaker 1: But I apologize for what I what's about to happen.
Speaker 1: I'm already sorry for it. I think this is gonna
Speaker 1: go great. Okay, okay, okay, thank you, Brat, you're welcome.
Speaker 1: So Janet which is Susan Surrandon's character, and Brad played
Speaker 1: by Barry Boss. He was on Spin City Brave. I've
Speaker 1: never seen it, but he say break camp. Yes. They
Speaker 1: are at their friend's wedding and the two of them
Speaker 1: get engaged after the wedding. It's unclear whether they want
Speaker 1: to get engaged. They definitely think they should get engaged
Speaker 1: right right, and then they sing a song about being
Speaker 1: engaged or the best songs in it. I mean, damnit, Janet,
Speaker 1: good stuff. This is when it's revealed that Susan Sarandon
Speaker 1: has a serviceable high school soprano. Bad they're not helping her,
Speaker 1: like it's just not her it's clear that she's an alto.
Speaker 1: Then we cut to a scene where they are driving
Speaker 1: in the dark and stormy night to visit their friend Dr.
Speaker 1: Everett Scott, as as we all do right after we
Speaker 1: get engaged. The first thing, the first people you tell
Speaker 1: after you get engage, you're a high school science teacher,
Speaker 1: not your parents. That's a fun thing to imagine, like, oh,
Speaker 1: what if I just went to Mr grinds Head. And
Speaker 1: they're traveling on what turns out to be a dead
Speaker 1: end road, and then they get a flat tire, so
Speaker 1: they get out of the car and walk to this
Speaker 1: castle that they had passed a few miles back, and
Speaker 1: the light is on in the castle, so they figure
Speaker 1: they can go in and use their phone to call
Speaker 1: for help, and then a spooky looking person answers the door.
Speaker 1: The writer of the movie Riff, rafted by Richard O'Brien.
Speaker 1: Richard O'Brien, who comes back time and time again, is
Speaker 1: a person who wants to be taken very seriously as
Speaker 1: an actor, but he created Rocky Horror Picture Show and
Speaker 1: he plays riff Raff and he answers the door and
Speaker 1: Janet Brad here's some commotion and Riff Raff tells them
Speaker 1: about a social event that the Master is hosting que
Speaker 1: the iconic time warp song which Joan mentioned last night
Speaker 1: everyone from their youth, yes, yes, oh yes, I mean
Speaker 1: my sense memory of that scene is that there's literally
Speaker 1: like a hundred people at dance hall and we watched
Speaker 1: last night and when there's like maybe twelve, I was like,
Speaker 1: why memorial asked, memories are so fall Memories are memories
Speaker 1: are lies? There's twelve l a casting people like stumbling
Speaker 1: their way into they've all kind of learned the dances.
Speaker 1: They clearly like, yeah, they had a day for rehearsal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they have closed shots on like the three or four
Speaker 1: who learned it, and then the rest there you just
Speaker 1: have fun, do something and does move to the music.
Speaker 1: It later becomes clear that there were days that they
Speaker 1: could have award for those same extras to come back,
Speaker 1: and days where they clearly couldn't afford not to jumphead
Speaker 1: but the floor show, like there's no audience for the
Speaker 1: floor show, and it's like you've written like people who
Speaker 1: have the whole job in the movie is just to
Speaker 1: watch what's going on, and they're not there for the
Speaker 1: like big finale show. It wasn't in the budget, but
Speaker 1: the song does slap and that's what's good lap. And yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's all these like suddenly there's a bunch of
Speaker 1: like cookie people and they're all singing and dancing, and
Speaker 1: among them are Magenta and Colombia. Uh. And then Janet
Speaker 1: is like, let's get out of here. It's weird and scary,
Speaker 1: and just then Dr Frankenforter shows up Tim Curry and
Speaker 1: the role of a lifetime. Yes, I want to take
Speaker 1: I want to take elocution lessons from him from this movie,
Speaker 1: like just pronounce everywhere the way he does. So I
Speaker 1: did some Tim Curry diving on this one. And Terry
Speaker 1: Gross I mean an icon and her own right, Uh, Terry,
Speaker 1: Like she asked him, like, you know, how did you
Speaker 1: develop this party? He's like, well, I was trying to
Speaker 1: figure out, like I guess that, like Frankenfurter was American
Speaker 1: accented for a while, Cockney accented for a while. And
Speaker 1: then Tim Curry was like, but what if Frankenfurter sounded
Speaker 1: like the Queen? And that was that was why why
Speaker 1: the credre sounds that way? And it's terrific. It's a
Speaker 1: great choice, and Frank Confurter sings a song about uh
Speaker 1: and I feel weird using these words, but being a
Speaker 1: sweet transvestite from trans sexual Transylvania. And that song also slaps. Yes,
Speaker 1: it absolutely dies and the performances incredible. Oh yes, And
Speaker 1: then Janet and Brad are invited upstairs and there was
Speaker 1: the castle has an la vater. Yes, the castle has
Speaker 1: an elevator. They're wet, clothes are removed, so now they're
Speaker 1: just in their underwear for a little while. And Dr Frankenfurter,
Speaker 1: who is Jenna ever get her clothes back? I think
Speaker 1: they get robes. They get very silky, definitely gets her
Speaker 1: clothes back less so than Brad. She's in her underwear
Speaker 1: for I would say the majority of the yes is correct.
Speaker 1: But Frankenfurter is a mad scientist and he unveils his
Speaker 1: latest creation, which is a person named Rocky Horror. Get
Speaker 1: it and Rockies bandages are removed, and then he sings
Speaker 1: a song. I mean like they're just song after so
Speaker 1: many songs, I would say that Rocky Horror, the actor
Speaker 1: playing Rocky Horror tries to sing a song in this
Speaker 1: they hired a model. Yes, it's a lot of like
Speaker 1: screen singing. Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of high school energy.
Speaker 1: Dr Frankenfurter is very pleased with how Rocky turned out
Speaker 1: because he's very muscular and very diplomatic way to put that. Yet, well,
Speaker 1: he seems to have created Rocky mostly so that he
Speaker 1: can have sex with Rocky. Yes, and then Eddie meat
Speaker 1: Loaf shows up, and then we're like, hold on meat Loaf,
Speaker 1: and then we pause and we're like pre Bad out
Speaker 1: of Hell or a post Bad out of Hell, pre
Speaker 1: pre he's not famous yet this one because I was
Speaker 1: just trying to figure out, well, we were all trying
Speaker 1: to figure out where's the majority of this budget coming from. Yes,
Speaker 1: and it seems like it was post Bad out of Hell.
Speaker 1: A lot of it will be going towards meat Low,
Speaker 1: but it's pre so we just don't know. Yeah, if
Speaker 1: anyone knows, like what you had to pay for it
Speaker 1: from meat Loaf cameo in n let us know. I
Speaker 1: don't think it was super high. I was like Tim Curry,
Speaker 1: Susan Surrandon and meat Loaf, we're all like pre being
Speaker 1: very famous in this movie. So we just corners were
Speaker 1: cut unclear wild the budget was only a little over
Speaker 1: a million dollars, right, right, So I mean it's a
Speaker 1: billion dollars. I don't know, I'm just like a million dollar.
Speaker 1: Frank Confreter's makeup alone cost five hundred thousand dollars big,
Speaker 1: probably big, like Sequin budget too. Okay. So then Eddie
Speaker 1: is there. He's a biker. He's a biker, He's got
Speaker 1: a big gash on his head. He sings a song.
Speaker 1: He's Mr. Lobotomy. It took me forever to figure out
Speaker 1: what was happening there, but he loves rock and roll.
Speaker 1: He sings a song about it, and then seemingly out
Speaker 1: of nowhere, Frank Confreter chops him with an axe and
Speaker 1: kills him. And we're like, oh, surely this will come back,
Speaker 1: and and for a long time it doesn't. And then
Speaker 1: Frank Conferter goes off to have sex with his creation, Rocky,
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, Brad and Janet are shown to separate rooms
Speaker 1: to sleep him. And then someone who Janet thinks is
Speaker 1: Brad comes in and starts kissing her, but it's actually Frankenfurter,
Speaker 1: in a scene that we will talk about, don't you worry.
Speaker 1: And then Frankenfurter does the same thing to Brad in
Speaker 1: another scene when we will also talk about and then
Speaker 1: meanwhile Rocky has gotten loose from his chains because well
Speaker 1: because in that Rocky is a prisoner of Frankenfurter. But
Speaker 1: then the reason that he is I still haven't made
Speaker 1: heads retails with this is because he's taunted by a candelabra, yes,
Speaker 1: being held by riff Raff, and Riff is like, hey,
Speaker 1: candle labra and Rockie's like, no, candle labra, and then
Speaker 1: he is scay. I was like, that is what breaks him? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's being killed prisoner gothic lighting. No thank you. He's like,
Speaker 1: I'm out of here, and he shimmies down the fire pole.
Speaker 1: It was like, why was why was riff Raff taunting
Speaker 1: him with that candelabra. I simply don't know. I don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: everyone pour into our d m is telling us why
Speaker 1: we're so dumb. Realizing the candelabra taunt. Rocky does not
Speaker 1: get very far and then Janet finds him and she
Speaker 1: is extremely horny now, so she sings a song about
Speaker 1: how she wants him to have sex with her, and
Speaker 1: then they have sex, and I'm gonna say I that's
Speaker 1: my most that that song slaps, that's my favorite song. Yes,
Speaker 1: and we get to see the ever so rare female
Speaker 1: orgasm on screen. Oh, is that what happens? Caitlyn will
Speaker 1: unpack this at a letter. I think it's implied that
Speaker 1: that's what happened at the end, and then the red
Speaker 1: silk sheet is pulled over her, like don't look at it,
Speaker 1: you know. It's like, oh, that's why we're here. Okay,
Speaker 1: good to know. Yeah. Then Dr Everett Scott shows up
Speaker 1: and Frankenfurter considers Doctor's got to be a rival mad
Speaker 1: signed like a rival scientist, classic, right, Yeah, And Frankenfurter
Speaker 1: thinks that Dr Scott sent Brad to the castle to
Speaker 1: spy on Frankenfurter, but the reason he actually come was
Speaker 1: to find his nephew Eddie, who saw nephew and now
Speaker 1: he's dead. It's ti together very naturally. We're like, this
Speaker 1: is not German scientist never love ah. Yes, And then
Speaker 1: Frankenfurter and Brad discovered Janet and Rocky post coitus and
Speaker 1: I guess po orgasm and they're not happy about. But
Speaker 1: then they all have dinner together and during the tense dinner,
Speaker 1: it's tense during dinner, we find out that Frankenfurter and
Speaker 1: company are aliens. Over an hour into the movie. By
Speaker 1: the way, everyone who lives in this castle is an alien.
Speaker 1: Also the castles of Spaceship Yeah. And then Dr Scott
Speaker 1: finds out that his nephew Eddie was killed and like
Speaker 1: the reason that Eddie had a gash on his head.
Speaker 1: We find out eventually that Frankenfurter removed part of Eddie's
Speaker 1: brain to put into Rocky's head. So now we understand
Speaker 1: meat Love's head scar clue shadow foreshadowing for a payoff
Speaker 1: that never comes, or it's like, oh, okay, so his
Speaker 1: brain was cut in half. Does that have bury on
Speaker 1: future events? It's just stated and you're like, oh, that
Speaker 1: sucks for meat Love. Oh he's dead, I guess yeah,
Speaker 1: And and they ate him, so he has bigger fish
Speaker 1: to fry in this situation. Really, it's so confusing. And
Speaker 1: then Frank Confurter turns Brad Janet, Doctor Scott, Columbia, and
Speaker 1: Rocky into stone statues because he's had enough of them.
Speaker 1: I guess, I'm not, I don't know. And then he
Speaker 1: puts on a show featuring the statues, which then turned
Speaker 1: back into the people, and then riff Raff and Magenta
Speaker 1: show up and they're like, hey, Frankenfurter, we're going back
Speaker 1: home to our home planet. They're in space outfits now, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: and they're going back to their home planet in the
Speaker 1: Transylvania Galaxy. And then Frankenfurter sings a song about how
Speaker 1: happy he is to be going home, but riff Raff
Speaker 1: is like, you misunderstood. It's only me and Magenta who
Speaker 1: are going back, and then he shoots Cerci and Jamie
Speaker 1: and they're like, no one is any thing. We're gonna
Speaker 1: kill everyone who isn't directly related to us. Because then
Speaker 1: frankin Fur gets shot with a laser gun and Rocky
Speaker 1: tries to save him, but they both die. And then
Speaker 1: riff Half is like, hey, Brad and Janet and Dr Scott,
Speaker 1: you should get out of here now because we're about
Speaker 1: to leave on our castle spaceship. And then they leave
Speaker 1: and the castle blasts off into space and that's everyone's
Speaker 1: like the weird night. Also the story that like, there
Speaker 1: are cuts to the narrator who is like, uh something,
Speaker 1: he's I don't know who he is. The narrator I
Speaker 1: believe in the is like build is like the criminologist
Speaker 1: or something. So yeah, this is like a it was
Speaker 1: the first true crime podcast. It was like it was
Speaker 1: just recount. He was recounting the story this true crime
Speaker 1: that happened. So that's the story of Rocky Horror Picture Show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so fun. I feel like even the biggest fans
Speaker 1: of this movie would struggle to explain the plot. I
Speaker 1: think they're like, the first half hour is amazing, and
Speaker 1: then by then, hopefully you're drunk. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: to unpack here. Yes, let's let's get into it. Where
Speaker 1: shall we start? Gosh, well do we want to start?
Speaker 1: I suppose was like the cultural impact this movie has had. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean there, I've done a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of research outside because I mean, there's a lot to
Speaker 1: talk about about what happens in plot, but the main
Speaker 1: legacy of this movie is the subculture that has popped
Speaker 1: up around it. And so I did a fairer amount
Speaker 1: of research because I've gone to see Rocky Horror Picture
Speaker 1: Show in theaters and number of times, but never I
Speaker 1: was yeah, of a like so young when I started
Speaker 1: seeing it that I didn't really question the culture around it,
Speaker 1: and then continue to not do. So, Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: I probably the last time I went to a a
Speaker 1: stage show or a shadow cast of it was maybe
Speaker 1: like eight or nine years ago, and um, yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess I didn't. I didn't know back then the shouting
Speaker 1: slut a hundred times at the screen, which was bad, right,
Speaker 1: So so that is like the main thing that people
Speaker 1: take issue with. So if you're not familiar with the
Speaker 1: culture that surrounds live screenings at the Rocky Hard Picture Show,
Speaker 1: there's a very well documented and kind of like unchanging
Speaker 1: sequence of things that people yell at the screen, props
Speaker 1: that they bring, There's like stuff that like there's forks
Speaker 1: thrown at one point, there's water that's sprayed, and it's
Speaker 1: like a very ritualistic thing. And some of the rituals
Speaker 1: are very like cookie and fun, and other of the
Speaker 1: rituals have not aged very well, such as any time
Speaker 1: that and Its character is on screen, you're supposed to
Speaker 1: scream slut at the screen, even though she has sex
Speaker 1: no more than anyone else in the movie, like Brad.
Speaker 1: She and Brad stray about from each other from each
Speaker 1: other and about equal announce like, and yet he is
Speaker 1: not referred to as a slot never Yeah, and and
Speaker 1: so there is some interesting, I think conversation that I
Speaker 1: will just admittedly just scratch the surface here on the
Speaker 1: conversation around this culture because it is like an interesting,
Speaker 1: complicated legacy for a movie that I mean, certainly in
Speaker 1: my area, and I think a lot of areas in
Speaker 1: America in particular are an entry way into queer culture
Speaker 1: and a very clear place to go that if you
Speaker 1: are if you want to be involved, like it's a
Speaker 1: good place to start. Yeah, it's it's just kind of
Speaker 1: a like it's it's a very like almost like Mickey
Speaker 1: Mouse version of like of like queer culture, which is appropriate.
Speaker 1: Disney owns it now, Um right yeah yeah, yeah, um
Speaker 1: think about that. Um but um, Columbia Ware is making
Speaker 1: Mouse years halfway through it, so like so they are
Speaker 1: they knew what's gonna happen four years later? Um, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it is like I mean the fact, like I think
Speaker 1: back on like that story told the fact that my
Speaker 1: dad was like, you know, hey, like I recorded this
Speaker 1: off TV for you tells me that you know, it
Speaker 1: is like and I knew he knew what it was,
Speaker 1: but it's just like it's just this very like safe
Speaker 1: like it's still like challenges you and is inviting you
Speaker 1: into a kind of like new, weird, fun world, but
Speaker 1: it's like this it's kind of like it's the safety
Speaker 1: version of that. Right. It seems to be a lot
Speaker 1: of people like step one into like like I have
Speaker 1: questions about my sexuality or this is just something that
Speaker 1: is this is a community that is cool and interesting
Speaker 1: to me and like let's explore it. It's a lot
Speaker 1: of people step one because it's accessible to younger people
Speaker 1: as well, And so I don't want to neg this
Speaker 1: community on the whole because there's a lot about it
Speaker 1: that is absolutely wonderful and like necessary, especially in places
Speaker 1: where queer communities aren't as accessible. Um, I mean there's
Speaker 1: a there's a lot of value in like having media
Speaker 1: like like this movie that's like palatable for you know
Speaker 1: young well Urban Night it's like, well it's very you
Speaker 1: know like and will will hollow the word well it's
Speaker 1: very problematic, let's say. Um, it is a lot of
Speaker 1: people's like first exposure to queer community, and it was
Speaker 1: I think one of my first involvement like and just
Speaker 1: it was like there was literally the g s A
Speaker 1: at my high school and you could go to Rocky Horror,
Speaker 1: and that was really all you could do, and so
Speaker 1: it was like it was important. But that said, there
Speaker 1: is a lot in the community that has been challenged
Speaker 1: and questioned over the years that I think is very interesting.
Speaker 1: The yelling slut at Janet, I think it is the
Speaker 1: most obvious, but there's also I mean there's like lines
Speaker 1: I looked through just kind of the stuff I'd forgotten
Speaker 1: about what people yell at the screen of when Janet says, oh,
Speaker 1: I was saving myself, and the audience will reply for
Speaker 1: what a rainy day, Look outside, bitch, it's pouring, Like
Speaker 1: they're just constantly yelling ship at Janet um And so
Speaker 1: I I was researching there was some great stuff written
Speaker 1: about because another component of the Rocky Horror experience is
Speaker 1: that there's a shadow cast acting out the movie in
Speaker 1: front of you. So there's like local actors and they
Speaker 1: often have like a pretty cult following. They become like
Speaker 1: celebrities within this like small niche community. I mean, I
Speaker 1: had the biggest crush on whomever was playing Rocky Horror
Speaker 1: in West Bridgewater in the late two thousands. I was like,
Speaker 1: I loved them, but it was I was they were
Speaker 1: like a local celeb, and I was like, I can't approach,
Speaker 1: you know. And so there is like this untouchable, like
Speaker 1: kind of cool quality UM. And there's been a lot
Speaker 1: written and and interviewed about people like this. So I
Speaker 1: I first wanted to share a few quotes from a
Speaker 1: former director and cast member from the eighties and nineties
Speaker 1: who was involved in Rocky Horror in the Houston area. UM.
Speaker 1: His name is Jeff Rowner. This was written a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, just kind of reflecting on his experience
Speaker 1: and the Rocky Horror cast. He's a siss head man,
Speaker 1: and he sort of wrote a column about UM reflecting
Speaker 1: on it years later. So a few quotes from there.
Speaker 1: He says, quote, it's not as fun as it used
Speaker 1: to be watching Rocky after years of being a media
Speaker 1: critic has definitely worn the shine off the film and
Speaker 1: the cold experience that grew up around it isn't really
Speaker 1: much better. Take screaming slit whenever anyone says Janet's name
Speaker 1: is arguably the single most basic call line in Rocky
Speaker 1: Horror history, alongside screaming asshole. When anyone says Brad, it's
Speaker 1: basically Rocky one on one for divergence, which we'll get to. Uh,
Speaker 1: so they can get used to the whole talking of
Speaker 1: the screen thing. I remember when I was a cast director,
Speaker 1: we got a complaint letter sent to the theater. The
Speaker 1: main gist was that having hundreds of people screaming slut
Speaker 1: was kind of funked up, kind of uh I with
Speaker 1: the righteous indignation only a twenty year old white dude
Speaker 1: can muster through a fit. How dare they besmirge a
Speaker 1: traditional part of the experience. How they no appreciation for
Speaker 1: the culture of the thing? How they know respect for
Speaker 1: the unique cinematic experience that was rocky Looking back at
Speaker 1: it now, I sounded like a fucking gamer gator. I
Speaker 1: sounded like every other aggrieved son of privilege beating his
Speaker 1: chest because his toys made other people uncomfortable. It's a
Speaker 1: weirdly conservative mindset for something that was supposed to be
Speaker 1: about breaking boundaries. A lot of the people I ran
Speaker 1: with considered offense to be the whole point of the enterprise,
Speaker 1: which is kind of bizarre for a film whose main
Speaker 1: tagline is don't dream it, be it. So that was
Speaker 1: one one perspective on Just like someone who was very
Speaker 1: deeply involved in the culture and then was questioning his
Speaker 1: own attitudes towards it. Oh, and then he goes on
Speaker 1: to say, and then I have a please bear with me,
Speaker 1: anyone there's this is a very deeply in trance community.
Speaker 1: So he goes on to say, quote, a friend of
Speaker 1: mine once said that Rocky was LGBT cosplayed for straight people.
Speaker 1: And that is definitely a sentiment I understand now. It's
Speaker 1: less of a boundary breaker and more of a chance
Speaker 1: for the comfortable to dip their toes in their perception
Speaker 1: of gay culture. Don't get me wrong, I loved being there. Hell,
Speaker 1: the first LGBT people I ever met were there, which
Speaker 1: is not surprising since I got my start back in
Speaker 1: when Houston was still sporting anti gave vice laws, and
Speaker 1: there weren't there. There just weren't a lot of places
Speaker 1: LGBT people could go and be themselves. It feels like
Speaker 1: an artifact to be appreciated for its historical value more
Speaker 1: for than its continued cultural relevance. It's basically the South
Speaker 1: Park of Holt Films, and that what it had to
Speaker 1: say has long since been said by better voices. So
Speaker 1: that was one perspective of a former cast member. Um
Speaker 1: and then there was a writer, Lindsay King Miller, who
Speaker 1: interviewed a number of current Rocky Horror Picture Show cast
Speaker 1: members just last year who first shared their own experience
Speaker 1: that I'd be curious. I mean when when I was
Speaker 1: going to and we were just talking about this backstage,
Speaker 1: Like I look back on going to the Rocky Horror
Speaker 1: Picture Show generally positively, and it's like a fun experience.
Speaker 1: But even so, there is that culture around the idea
Speaker 1: of like if you're a quote unquote virgin going to
Speaker 1: the show, or if it's your first time going, there
Speaker 1: is a lot of pressure put on you too. I mean,
Speaker 1: there were accounts in this story which was published by
Speaker 1: them last year about people in certain areas who were
Speaker 1: asked to flash the audience because it was their first
Speaker 1: time going to Rocky Horror. I remember when I went
Speaker 1: for the first time, they were trying to convince people
Speaker 1: to kiss on stage if they were virgins, you know, virgins.
Speaker 1: But also I was fourteen, and I remember telling the
Speaker 1: person I was like, oh, this is my cousin, and
Speaker 1: you know, like I was there with my cousin and
Speaker 1: being fourteen, and and it just wasn't even something I
Speaker 1: even thought about until I was reading these other accounts
Speaker 1: of like, oh yeah, I remember having to like, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of hang on to my cousin and be like, oh,
Speaker 1: we gotta, you know, look at for each other. And
Speaker 1: so I just want to share a little bit from
Speaker 1: Lindsay's story. They didn't interview One of the most quote
Speaker 1: sorry journalism, okay quote. One of the most visible faces
Speaker 1: of the movement for a safer Rocky Horror Picture Show
Speaker 1: is New York City cast member Jackson Tory Bart, aged
Speaker 1: twenty three, who started attending shadow cast performances at the
Speaker 1: Rocky Horror as a teenager, and Jackson says, quote, what
Speaker 1: I found there was a place to explore and express
Speaker 1: my non binary gender as it began to take shape,
Speaker 1: and lived truer in my queer identity. And then Jackson
Speaker 1: later joins the New York City Rocky Horror Picture Show
Speaker 1: cast and says that quote, upon interacting with the wider community,
Speaker 1: I was surprised to find leadership dominated by siss gender
Speaker 1: straight people, most often men. Unquote. They realized quickly that
Speaker 1: the Rocky Horror subculture was far from immune to the
Speaker 1: homophobia and transphobia from which it was supposed to be
Speaker 1: a refuge. Jackson says, quote, I will never forget being
Speaker 1: told that my gender was fake and invalid by a
Speaker 1: middle aged sciss man and of course at heels and
Speaker 1: garters unquote. Lindsay also interviews another cast member named Cassia,
Speaker 1: who is a member of the r k O Army
Speaker 1: cast alongside Jackson in New York. Cassia goes on to say, quote,
Speaker 1: I had people calling me a cunt, saying I was
Speaker 1: oblit to society, threatening to sue me, threatening to try
Speaker 1: to get me kicked off my cast, spreading gossip about
Speaker 1: me unquote when they attended a Rocky Horror convention, and
Speaker 1: so whenever an allegation would come forward about a Rocky
Speaker 1: Horror cast member, uh quote, Cassia, already familiar with potential repercussions,
Speaker 1: was ready to support them and help call out their abusers.
Speaker 1: Although Jackson and Cassia say they have faced backlash from
Speaker 1: name calling to threats of legal action for turning a
Speaker 1: spotlight on predators who use Rocky Horror as a hunting ground,
Speaker 1: they have also been met with gratitude and support from
Speaker 1: the community. Quote. Not everyone in the cast is as
Speaker 1: loud about this as we are Cis Cassia, but everyone
Speaker 1: cares a lot about this issue and what we are
Speaker 1: trying to do unquote. So even within the Rocky horror community,
Speaker 1: there has been of a fair amount of pushback in
Speaker 1: recent years to be more accepting. And I think that
Speaker 1: a lot of this comes up in the seventies nous
Speaker 1: that this move be as routed in in terms of
Speaker 1: just like seeking consent and considering the age of audience
Speaker 1: members and and and homophobia and transphobia that just spiral out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I think that we are the
Speaker 1: three of us watched it last night, and I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, we were all pretty taking it because I
Speaker 1: would say, like this is last night was probably one
Speaker 1: of the first times I like watched watched the just
Speaker 1: the movie as a movie and you know, um, and
Speaker 1: not that I would have been making this call like
Speaker 1: ten years ago, but seeing the scene where like the
Speaker 1: two scenes in a row where Frankenfort just kind of
Speaker 1: like you know, pulls a like Revenge of the Nerds
Speaker 1: to like be with both of them is like really
Speaker 1: like gross, Like it's really gross. And I mean, I
Speaker 1: think you're right, it's that kind of you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's a. It's there's something like a little bully ish
Speaker 1: to it, like like everything you're describing like just it's
Speaker 1: just these like bully undertones and then I don't know
Speaker 1: that they're I think you're right, and seeing like those
Speaker 1: things they exist like within the film to an extent. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I mean it's like I think there's definitely
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion to be had, and it is
Speaker 1: such a vast cult following that it's like from region
Speaker 1: to region. I'm sure that the like the following around
Speaker 1: it differs, but but it is. It was interesting too.
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like it is generally painted as
Speaker 1: like such a friendly and all encompassing, you know, open
Speaker 1: space and then to hear that of course, like as
Speaker 1: we've found out so many times that even these spaces
Speaker 1: that were supposedly designed with openness in mind have this
Speaker 1: insidious nature to them. Yeah, that's the thing. Well, speaking
Speaker 1: of the director or the creator, yes, let's talk about creator,
Speaker 1: Richard O'Brien, Yes, um, yeah, I mean Richard O'Brien was
Speaker 1: like on record fairly recently, i think, like within the
Speaker 1: last like two months as saying that he, uh, he
Speaker 1: does not believe that like he does trans women are
Speaker 1: not women. This essentially it was the extent of a
Speaker 1: sentiment that a trans woman will always be like a
Speaker 1: man in address, like it's it's all what I'm I
Speaker 1: don't have to write down because it's all like the
Speaker 1: best the you know, the turkey best of um um.
Speaker 1: But it's and it's and and and he does say,
Speaker 1: you know, like I consider myself like a third like
Speaker 1: the third gender. I think that's a real thing, but
Speaker 1: like transit trans people are not a real thing. And
Speaker 1: it's like wow, way to like like gender is just
Speaker 1: as fluid as you needed to be and goes no further. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like I and like I don't know, but it's it
Speaker 1: was like genuinely dishearm. It was genuinely sad, like because
Speaker 1: not a huge part, but Rocky Horror was definitely a
Speaker 1: part of my you know, kind of figuring myself, that
Speaker 1: journey of figuring myself out. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I was watching Laver Cox talk about her because she
Speaker 1: played frankn Furder in the Two Sons two sixteen version,
Speaker 1: and she talked about how, you know, she she's known
Speaker 1: a lot of people who Yeah, Rocky Horror was the
Speaker 1: start of their journey into you know, to figure out
Speaker 1: who they were. Uh So, so I don't know, Like
Speaker 1: I think of it as like it's like fucking like
Speaker 1: Santa Claus telling you there's no Santa Claus. It's like
Speaker 1: it's like Santa Claus like shows up and he's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not real and then he disappears, and you're like,
Speaker 1: what the fuss what my brains to think about this? Um?
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know. It's it's it's it's confusing
Speaker 1: because I didn't realize this until very recently when I
Speaker 1: started doing some research about Richard O'Brien. But I pulled
Speaker 1: some quotes from a BBC article. Is from this yea
Speaker 1: from me? And in the article, he uh speaks, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know pronouns, I don't know, but O'Brien speaks
Speaker 1: about their gender identity and fluidity, saying, it's my book
Speaker 1: quote journalism, thank you new bit quote. It's my belief
Speaker 1: that we are on a tenuum between male and female.
Speaker 1: There are people who are hardwired male, and there are
Speaker 1: people who are hardwired female, but most of us are
Speaker 1: on that continuum. And I believe myself probably to be
Speaker 1: about se male female O'Brien has also and this is
Speaker 1: me talking now unquote is what you say, right? Um? Journalism, yes, journalism.
Speaker 1: O'Brien has also identified Joan, as you said, as being
Speaker 1: a third sex and has taken estrogen. So we're like, okay,
Speaker 1: he's he's gender fluid. But and then he's like, but
Speaker 1: trans women aren't women, And you're like, what, Richard, what?
Speaker 1: So it's confusing. Yeah, I mean to me, it just
Speaker 1: you know, it speaks to this like intense inability to
Speaker 1: look like kind of look outside yourself like all, I
Speaker 1: like literally all. And I read in the interview. I
Speaker 1: read that he's still that it's still he still us
Speaker 1: mail pronounce. That's what I was. So that's where I
Speaker 1: was going with. But like he's still, um, you know
Speaker 1: you understand it's like lack of empathy, like he understands
Speaker 1: what's going on inside of him, and but he can't
Speaker 1: like extend that to like anybody, which you know, like
Speaker 1: tracks with just like other things I've learned about him,
Speaker 1: and like namely like you know, he's just like his
Speaker 1: distaste for like how like popular his thing has become.
Speaker 1: The thing is like with Richard O'Brien, outside of his
Speaker 1: very messy views on gender and identification. In general, he
Speaker 1: just seems like a pretty bitter person about like I
Speaker 1: mean and but I'm sorry if there's stands in the audience,
Speaker 1: but like but but in general, like he does come
Speaker 1: off as like you're ruining my creation. And he's always
Speaker 1: like why didn't people appreciate me as riff rap? And
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm sorry, Yeah, there's a and I would
Speaker 1: recommend why because I think the production itself is fun
Speaker 1: On YouTube there is a like two fifteen stage production.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of fun. Like Stephen Fry is the narrator,
Speaker 1: but like they like interview Richard O'Brien like halfway through
Speaker 1: and like it's just clear that he's like disgusted with this,
Speaker 1: with this and he's people and he's like yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just his vibe of like why, like these people are
Speaker 1: ruining my my brilliantly crafted script, and it's like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: or is your sophomore triumph? It was Shock Treatment, that
Speaker 1: was his fault. That was his sequel to Rocky Horror.
Speaker 1: It did not make an impact, as that reaction will
Speaker 1: tell you. I have not I haven't seen it, but
Speaker 1: but people it seems like people have generally argued that
Speaker 1: it is a more cohesive piece than Rocky Horror. Yes,
Speaker 1: I would say it's a more cohesive piece, I would say,
Speaker 1: and none of the songs slap. Well, then what's the point. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's a little bit of background I had about
Speaker 1: the the state of the subculture. Uh, and then too
Speaker 1: to everyone listening to everyone here the show, and I
Speaker 1: mean I'm very interested in and we were talking about
Speaker 1: this in last night of just like what is the
Speaker 1: current uh state of Rocky Horror fandom? Because it does
Speaker 1: seem like in some cases it does skew older and
Speaker 1: where there are more options for many for queer community.
Speaker 1: Now like where yeah, where does that fandom stand? Because
Speaker 1: I mean, like we have the new art one which
Speaker 1: I think is the lot the one of the new
Speaker 1: art o Santa Manicas. Yeah, let's all go afterwards, let's
Speaker 1: uh who can get it? Like a fifty person left? Um,
Speaker 1: it's a um, it's still it's been going for like
Speaker 1: pretty much for you, like since has been going for
Speaker 1: almost consistently every Saturday night since since eighty six. I
Speaker 1: believe they took some time off in the early two
Speaker 1: thousands to repo the genetic opera. Remember that referencing I
Speaker 1: have movies everybody remembers. Um. But yeah, they've been doing
Speaker 1: it for like like thirty five years or something, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, so it's and it's like really the only
Speaker 1: movie of its kind that has this kind of following,
Speaker 1: which which is like a gigantic accomplishment for the piece
Speaker 1: and for the community around it. But yeah, I just
Speaker 1: I haven't been in several years myself, and I'm just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: where does it stand, especially our young younger people still
Speaker 1: interested in going? Like is this still an entry point
Speaker 1: for younger people? Because I don't know if a fourteen
Speaker 1: year old today would be like, oh, here's here's the
Speaker 1: best option in my area, you know what I mean. Uh,
Speaker 1: we don't know. We'll find out, we'll get we'll take
Speaker 1: some questions at the end. Let's talk about the actual
Speaker 1: female characters in the phone. Okay, um, well, unbelievable that
Speaker 1: you suggest that. I'm sorry, y'all go home. Let's start
Speaker 1: with Janet. I suppose, as we already hinted at, she
Speaker 1: is basically inconsequential to the plot, if you can call
Speaker 1: it that, but love she does faint once during time
Speaker 1: war she fainted. She shrieked, and then she faints again
Speaker 1: when Frank conferred her first appear because say it with me,
Speaker 1: now women fainting, And there's also when she doesn't faint
Speaker 1: in something dramatic happens. She then shrieks and rushes into
Speaker 1: the arms of the most recent person she's had sex with. Yes,
Speaker 1: so that is another quality, right she She's written as
Speaker 1: a fairly timid, like, oh Brad, I'm so scared protect
Speaker 1: me type of female character, but she does have an arc.
Speaker 1: She doesn't definitely. She starts by saying she doesn't like
Speaker 1: men with muscles, and then she does yes, and then
Speaker 1: has sex with a man with muscles who might be
Speaker 1: a baby. We'll talk about it. Yes, here's what we know.
Speaker 1: He has muscles. But then she's only like sexually liberated
Speaker 1: after she gets raped by Frankenfurter, so that we'll get
Speaker 1: to that. There are a few I mean, and this
Speaker 1: is in no way defending the two consecutive rape scenes
Speaker 1: that are played for jokes, but there are a few
Speaker 1: things I thought that were like planted for Janet, planeted
Speaker 1: for Janet, damn it uh, and where there are a
Speaker 1: few moments where Janet is starting to have fun, like
Speaker 1: at the party and at the time where I think
Speaker 1: it's during the time where she goes like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is fun and Brad's like, no, it isn't and she's
Speaker 1: like okay. But there there are a few times where
Speaker 1: Janet wants to participate and her fiance, but where her
Speaker 1: fiance is like, we don't like this, and Janet kind
Speaker 1: of you calibrates and it's like, okay, okay, I'm not allowed.
Speaker 1: Does that mean that Brad is basically cal Hockley and
Speaker 1: that Rocky is Leonardo DiCaprio slash Jack Dawstin's is Titanic?
Speaker 1: Yes it does. We both have red hair and there's
Speaker 1: a ship there's either sinks or blast off into space.
Speaker 1: I'm willing to explore this, yes, but but yeah, like
Speaker 1: it is hinted at a few times that Janet is
Speaker 1: more receptive and like, is I mean hornier. She also
Speaker 1: insists on going with Brad when their car breaks down.
Speaker 1: He's like stay here, I'll go find help, and she's like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm coming with you. She pushes against him in very
Speaker 1: subtle ways, but she does push against what he wants
Speaker 1: a few times. But at the beginning when he says no,
Speaker 1: we don't do that, she obeys, and I would also say, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't necessarily want to give like the
Speaker 1: movie too much at it in this direction, but I mean,
Speaker 1: I do think we are kind of supposed to be
Speaker 1: watching parodies of nineteen fifties b movie like cute team Couple,
Speaker 1: So you know, I don't the reason I don't want
Speaker 1: to give it too much credit in that direction because
Speaker 1: I feel like at the end of the day that
Speaker 1: it doesn't have much to say about them. It just
Speaker 1: kind of like it presents them and it's like these
Speaker 1: like I don't know, it does not he to say,
Speaker 1: but like it's like, I do think we are watching like,
Speaker 1: you know, archetypes of like characters and not not necessarily
Speaker 1: like but no fans for Geno Brian maybe not the
Speaker 1: most like well developed predimensional characters logging in right now
Speaker 1: like how dare you? Yeah? I was reading some similar
Speaker 1: an analysis. There was a visa reference later by a
Speaker 1: queer writer named Ronnie Baker, who did a fair amount
Speaker 1: of research into the references this movie is making, uh,
Speaker 1: most of which have not survived the test of time
Speaker 1: that we would be able to pick up on them.
Speaker 1: But basically the queer coded sci fi movies that came
Speaker 1: out in the fifties and sixties and into the seventies
Speaker 1: that kind of influenced and made this movie what it
Speaker 1: was in some ways, um that are kind of left out.
Speaker 1: And I think that the meat loaf character is also
Speaker 1: supposed to be a reference to like fifties like you know,
Speaker 1: James Dean biker boys right right, and then him getting
Speaker 1: like killed so abruptly. It's supposed to be, but we
Speaker 1: don't know, but it's a metaphor. It's like basically like
Speaker 1: if you're watching like like date movie, like it's in
Speaker 1: thirty years, you're just gonna not know where all these
Speaker 1: references are. Yeah, you're like, oh, reference equals comments, got it?
Speaker 1: Uh what you were saying about the Oh that that
Speaker 1: was all I had to say on on it for
Speaker 1: the moment. But yeah, there's there's there's more to come
Speaker 1: with that one. But basically that there in b movies specifically,
Speaker 1: there were some characters that made more explicit challenge to
Speaker 1: je Under that seemed to have influenced Frankenfurter's character that
Speaker 1: have just kind of been because they were the movies
Speaker 1: or kind of like forgotten comic books lost to time,
Speaker 1: but there is a clear history of like influence that like,
Speaker 1: like this movie didn't come out of nowhere. Y gotta
Speaker 1: got it. Should we talk about those rapes scene? I
Speaker 1: mean we've got it in some must Thanks for coming
Speaker 1: out tonight, everybody. I love to just get a room
Speaker 1: of people and just be like, let's talk about those
Speaker 1: rape scenes. But we must, we must, we must. Um.
Speaker 1: So what happens here in this narrative is that first
Speaker 1: we see Janet in bed, someone who she thinks is
Speaker 1: her fielce say comes in and starting kissing her, and
Speaker 1: then suddenly it turns out to be Frankenfurter in disc eyes.
Speaker 1: She freaks out, She tells him to stop, screams for help, says,
Speaker 1: you tricked me. I wouldn't have and then Frank Confreter says,
Speaker 1: stop it. Do you want Brad to see you like
Speaker 1: this in a compromising sexual position, because he basically grabs
Speaker 1: her legs and like kind of thrust his pelvis into yes,
Speaker 1: um without doubt, placing the blame on her. And then
Speaker 1: she says, like, what it's your fault, You're to blame.
Speaker 1: I was saving myself. And then Frank Confreter responds by saying, well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're not spent yet, and then suddenly her
Speaker 1: attitude changes and then he is like kissing her again,
Speaker 1: and then she's like, promise you won't tell Brad, and
Speaker 1: then they presumably have sex. And this is supposed to
Speaker 1: be for is a funny moment, yeah, And second, a
Speaker 1: moment that is supposed to indicate, like you were saying, Caitlin,
Speaker 1: a liberation in the character where this like pretty explicit assault,
Speaker 1: very it's supposed to mean. And now she is open
Speaker 1: to sexual experience because she was raped, which is pretty
Speaker 1: clearly the opposite of what that is. A similar thing
Speaker 1: happens in Cruel Intentions with the Selma Blair character. But yeah, basically,
Speaker 1: I mean to break down this scene, she is assaulted
Speaker 1: just by the mere fact of she thinks that Frank
Speaker 1: Conforter is someone else, and then it's like the revenge
Speaker 1: of the Nerds thing, and then she says no, no, no,
Speaker 1: like denying consent, and then Frank Conforter is like, come on, though,
Speaker 1: you'll like it, and then she's like contenticating that you
Speaker 1: can be talked out, persuaded, and then he's like gas
Speaker 1: lighting her and then suddenly she's into it, question Mark,
Speaker 1: It's just kind of like this like idea of like
Speaker 1: you know, like a like a no is just like
Speaker 1: a yes that needs a little more negotiate. Like she
Speaker 1: just you know, she doesn't know what she wants. She's
Speaker 1: just waiting for like the right like guy to come
Speaker 1: along and and and show her right. And the same
Speaker 1: thing happens to Britten. And I think that like both
Speaker 1: Janet and Brad are victimized by these scenes. And the
Speaker 1: way that Frankenfurter's character is written is enforcing all these negative, negative,
Speaker 1: negative stereotypes yes about you know, and it's it's hot.
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how we should be classifying Frekenfurter specifically,
Speaker 1: but you know, just I say, will call him queer
Speaker 1: and like, yes, just like all these like negative like
Speaker 1: you know, negative stereotypes that exist about that have existed
Speaker 1: about queer people in like you know sci fi and
Speaker 1: horror movie is like really up until like very recently
Speaker 1: yesterday and still but just yeah, like implying that by
Speaker 1: I mean and again it's like not made explicitly clear,
Speaker 1: but that by challenging the gender binary in any way
Speaker 1: that Frank converter, is a predator, is a cannibal, is
Speaker 1: like is a murderer, and and then conflating it with
Speaker 1: anyone who challenges the gender binary at which is like
Speaker 1: a problem that comes up again and again and again,
Speaker 1: and even in this extremely iconic movie, it's very present.
Speaker 1: Oh no, but I mean, I mean, like it extends
Speaker 1: to like, you know, it's Buffalo Bill, This is like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's It's also that these scenes are like campy rape
Speaker 1: scenes in a campy movie. I know, they're like it's right,
Speaker 1: but it's fine, But like is it that makes it
Speaker 1: all the more dangerous because the whole the scenes are
Speaker 1: played for humor and for laughs, and it's like disguising
Speaker 1: full assault in camp and which I sort of am
Speaker 1: of the mind of. Like that is almost like the
Speaker 1: most insidious dangerous way to do it. That If you
Speaker 1: can play a scene like that and make people laugh
Speaker 1: with it, that's a very potent dangerous thing we co
Speaker 1: do for sure. Um and is not something that has
Speaker 1: been challenged as much as I mean it was genuine.
Speaker 1: I mean I think that the first time I saw
Speaker 1: that when I was fourteen, I didn't know what to
Speaker 1: make of it. But everyone was laughing, and so you
Speaker 1: recalibrate to be like, Okay, I guess that's funny. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I saw it as a like I think
Speaker 1: I saw that scene in a very like you know,
Speaker 1: tens of levens. I saw it pretty young age, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it just it just kind of like gave me this
Speaker 1: idea of like, Okay, this is like a normal, acceptable
Speaker 1: excemple thing. My parents did not only let me watch
Speaker 1: Fox at such a young age, but yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so so that I mean, no one comes out of
Speaker 1: those scenes. I mean it's just like it's on every
Speaker 1: level it does not hold up. No, no, uh. The
Speaker 1: most that it does, I guess is like sort of
Speaker 1: solidifies Frankenfurter as like by or maybe even pan sexual.
Speaker 1: So it's not good representation of queerness on screen, but
Speaker 1: it's there. So that's confusing to grapple with. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like that sort of goes into
Speaker 1: the the larger conversation about Frankenfurter in general. So let's good,
Speaker 1: let's get into that. I mean, there's truly where to begin. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I'll start on the lighter side of the
Speaker 1: conversation and UH, talk a little bit about Tim Curry,
Speaker 1: who plays part who kind of I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: we're we're in an era where so few people hold
Speaker 1: up as people, much less people worth admiring, and Tim
Speaker 1: Curry it seems to generally hold up as a person,
Speaker 1: which is great, Um, Tim Curry. So, what I wasn't
Speaker 1: aware of prior to like researching for this episode was
Speaker 1: that Rocky Horror was a stage show first. So Tim
Speaker 1: Curry had already been playing the party originated the part
Speaker 1: of Frankenfurter Uh in UH nineteen seventy three, played it
Speaker 1: in London, played it on Broadway, and then was one
Speaker 1: of the few cast members that also played it in
Speaker 1: the movie. UM, and so had a good understanding of
Speaker 1: this piece based on my research. This was not the
Speaker 1: first time that Tim Curry had played around with gender
Speaker 1: in his uber. He had also been in a play
Speaker 1: called The Maids in nineteen seventy one, where he played
Speaker 1: a sado massochistic female maid named Solange would Love to
Speaker 1: See Sho. So Tim Curry already had a history of
Speaker 1: having an interest in playing with gender UH and his
Speaker 1: performances and is still very much stands by the legacy
Speaker 1: of Rocky Horror. And so this is a quote from
Speaker 1: OH five in an interview with Terry Grows where he
Speaker 1: says that he views Rocky Horror to be quote a
Speaker 1: rite of passage and adds the film is quote a
Speaker 1: guaranteed weekend party to which you can go with or
Speaker 1: without a date and probably find one if you don't
Speaker 1: have one. And it's also a chance for people to
Speaker 1: try on a few roles for sides, you know, figure
Speaker 1: it out, help them maybe figure out their own sexuality unquote. Um.
Speaker 1: And he's remained pretty involved in the Rocky Horror community
Speaker 1: to the point where he was the narrator in the
Speaker 1: Laverne Cox stage adaptation that was on Fox in So
Speaker 1: uh yeah, Tim Curry, Now let's get into the harder
Speaker 1: stuff A well. I I thought that because the only
Speaker 1: real serious attempted update at this material, because it is
Speaker 1: in some in a lot of ways kind of un
Speaker 1: updatedble yah. A real example against reboot culture because it's
Speaker 1: like some material it's just like it's so in the
Speaker 1: DNA of it. But this was rebroadcast is one of
Speaker 1: the like broadcast Broadway shows in sixteen, and Frankenfurter was
Speaker 1: played by Liver and Cox And I know you've done
Speaker 1: some research into this as well. I have some quotes
Speaker 1: from her that I thought were really interesting. Well, I
Speaker 1: think and I think this might be what you're getting too,
Speaker 1: but like at least in terms of what she had
Speaker 1: to say about like, you know, Frankenfurter and their identity. Um,
Speaker 1: she talked a lot about it. The fact that you know,
Speaker 1: she as a character as a person identifying as like
Speaker 1: a like you know, a quote unquote like trans sexual,
Speaker 1: transvestite like that. That was like of the language and
Speaker 1: the level of the language a person a person like
Speaker 1: that would have like at the time, at the time
Speaker 1: the playteam, at the time the movie came out. So
Speaker 1: you know, it was kind of like with frankin fur
Speaker 1: you're kind of looking at a character like bumping up
Speaker 1: against the walls of you know, just of understanding that
Speaker 1: the culture had at that time, and that's how they
Speaker 1: were defining themselves. Um. And you know, it would probably
Speaker 1: be a you know, a very different character if they
Speaker 1: were written today. But I think there's still kind of
Speaker 1: the idea that you know, you honor how they saw
Speaker 1: themselves back then, because that's you know, we still want
Speaker 1: to honor that and observe it, and I guess if
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Yeah, so I totally agree. I I
Speaker 1: it's so like what served to me because I tried
Speaker 1: to go through a little bit of the because it
Speaker 1: seemed like people like it wasn't like a huge event,
Speaker 1: but people enjoyed it. It was generally well regarded. Victoria
Speaker 1: Justice Victor Jealousy plays Janet, you know, like we love it.
Speaker 1: Tim Curry plays a Narator, the Verne Cox is Frank Conforter.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, I feel like, as far as
Speaker 1: an attempt at an update, they did, but they're good.
Speaker 1: But what I thought was interesting was when Laverne Cox
Speaker 1: was doing interviews about this project, Um, she was talking
Speaker 1: a lot about, I mean, when we've talked about this
Speaker 1: in the on the podcast, a fair amount of pressure
Speaker 1: on a specific actor to represent their entire community in
Speaker 1: every part they play. And Laverne Cox kind of spoken
Speaker 1: on this to an extent when she was talking about this,
Speaker 1: because she recognizes in interviews that this is not the
Speaker 1: most up to date of the moment park at play,
Speaker 1: but she's acting and and and sort of the pressure
Speaker 1: that she is one of the only prominent trends of actors.
Speaker 1: Working to always be representing not just her own work
Speaker 1: but just of everyone is an enormous pressure. So a
Speaker 1: few quotes from her that she that she said when
Speaker 1: this came out was quote to call a trans woman
Speaker 1: a transstite in is very offensive. But as an actor,
Speaker 1: I don't play roles based on politics. This is just acting.
Speaker 1: I think of all the male identified actors who have
Speaker 1: played Dr Frankenfurter on stage over the years, I don't
Speaker 1: think any of them identified as transvestites either. People are
Speaker 1: confused about trans identity anyways, but hopefully we can have
Speaker 1: a discussion about it. Um. So that was just like
Speaker 1: the little bit of what she said when she played
Speaker 1: this role that I thought was interesting, And I think
Speaker 1: that's I mean, you know, kind of like what I
Speaker 1: get from Like the heart of that is, you know,
Speaker 1: like why this is like Frankfurter, you know stuff aside,
Speaker 1: like is like a fun like role to get to play,
Speaker 1: Like it's a fun like character to live in, especially
Speaker 1: for like that the big number, and it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's I understand the desire to be like I don't
Speaker 1: constantly want to be like defined by the politics surrounding
Speaker 1: my identity. Some times, and I just want to like
Speaker 1: have fun in a role sometimes I just want to
Speaker 1: you know, like act and seeing and like have play
Speaker 1: a big, campy character. And I think she has that.
Speaker 1: I totally think she has that right as a performer. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that that was like one thing that was just like, like,
Speaker 1: what what an extreme pressure put under? That would be
Speaker 1: put on very few other working actors to represent everybody
Speaker 1: at once. Um so so yeah, I mean, and and
Speaker 1: then there's the troops we were discussing earlier, which was
Speaker 1: just Frankfurter presenting a queer identifying character as literally every
Speaker 1: negative stereotype I can think of, down to cannibal, which
Speaker 1: I don't even normally think about. It also took me
Speaker 1: a few views of this movie to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're eating meat. Loof, like I'm not the meat. Then
Speaker 1: that would have been way chiller. But they were eating
Speaker 1: the famous musician. Did they but catch up on him? Though?
Speaker 1: That's how you eat meat love. I believe, Yes, I
Speaker 1: actually believe Frankenfunter puts me catch up on him. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's so it is very as well as like portraying
Speaker 1: Frankenfurter is very very spiteful and jealous and vengeful and
Speaker 1: violent and just really everything in the book. But but
Speaker 1: what the arc that was pointed out by the writer
Speaker 1: Ronnie Baker that I wanted to point out that was
Speaker 1: sort of pulled from that legacy of B movies and
Speaker 1: comic books with characters challenging gender that came before it.
Speaker 1: And this also sort of ties into and I haven't
Speaker 1: done the deep research necessary, so dragged me a few must.
Speaker 1: But the where the place that movie codes were at
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies, we're at a very in between
Speaker 1: place where the extremely rigid codes of like Doris Day
Speaker 1: end up being a wife and wifeing rules like that
Speaker 1: has fallen away, and now there's more room for for
Speaker 1: more challenging material but still with restrictions. And Rocky Horror
Speaker 1: is kind of a good bottle example of that, where
Speaker 1: we are allowed to love enjoy in spite of the
Speaker 1: fact that there's a lot of negative stereotypes being portrayed.
Speaker 1: But but people love Dr Frank Confer there like he's
Speaker 1: the center of the movie. He's the most remembered character,
Speaker 1: and so we're allowed to have this character front and
Speaker 1: center as long as as the movie plays out. This
Speaker 1: character is punished for their transgression at the end, which
Speaker 1: is what happens when riff Raff and Magenta come back
Speaker 1: and they zapp him and he dies and it's very tragic.
Speaker 1: And that was sort of where where the narratives stood
Speaker 1: in terms of how queer characters can be portrayed. Yes,
Speaker 1: and uh and also like you know, I think, like, um,
Speaker 1: I bring this zap Columbia. Columbia dies too in that scene.
Speaker 1: And you know, I feel like lot of the kind
Speaker 1: of the way like trans like specifically like trans women
Speaker 1: are portrayed in in media in general, but specifically in
Speaker 1: horror films, they are you know classically like the Kill
Speaker 1: like you know, the Villain Sleepway, Sleepaway Cam, like uh,
Speaker 1: the Brian, the Brian to Palmer movie with Mike Caine,
Speaker 1: Dead Kill, Kill, Sleepaway Camp, the Seed of Chucky like um,
Speaker 1: and my God. But like all those things kind of
Speaker 1: like come down to I feel like it's like it's
Speaker 1: not just the trend. It's not just like specifically like
Speaker 1: trans women are villains. It's that there's something I feel
Speaker 1: like if there's something innately like duplicitous and villainous about
Speaker 1: like women, and that's and what and then and therefore
Speaker 1: like what could be like more like band that wants
Speaker 1: to take on those qualities because like if you like
Speaker 1: watch like like I'm gonna use a seed of Chucky
Speaker 1: at dress to kill as my two private examples, but
Speaker 1: there's a lot of examples of this of where it's
Speaker 1: like presented is very binary, Like the character has a
Speaker 1: male side and a female side, and it's always in
Speaker 1: those movies, it's always like the female side is the
Speaker 1: one that is like doing the killing. Um, so, you know,
Speaker 1: and I think that like plays out in the mote
Speaker 1: in in Here where it's it's not just like Frankenfurter
Speaker 1: that is, you know, it is kind of villainized for
Speaker 1: kind of messing with the gender binary a little bit.
Speaker 1: But you know, like Columbia is a you know, it's
Speaker 1: kind of like a hysterical, like very like jealous woman.
Speaker 1: Like she's like driven pretty much entirely by jealousy throughout
Speaker 1: the entire film, you know that, and no one like
Speaker 1: you know, like it's kind of hard to keep track
Speaker 1: of what her relationships are because just like there's like
Speaker 1: multiple times where she bursts out and she's like I
Speaker 1: was in love with you, and you're like who are you, um,
Speaker 1: but like she's another I feel like, you know, she
Speaker 1: is punished for that as well. At the end. Something
Speaker 1: that because I always think about at least like transphobia
Speaker 1: specifically towards like trans women trans women, is that it's
Speaker 1: it's just a it's also just you know, massa, it's
Speaker 1: just it's just misogyny in another form. Yeah. And and
Speaker 1: then I mean, just even based off of you talking
Speaker 1: about that, I mean, there's really not anyone who presents
Speaker 1: in traditional men's clothing who has made out to be
Speaker 1: remotely bad in this movie where they're mostly victimized. Where
Speaker 1: with the meat Load character coming out in the like
Speaker 1: traditional mancho James dean biker outfit, hacked a death immediately
Speaker 1: he's victimized. The scientist is also the rival scientist is victimized,
Speaker 1: Brad is victimized. Where and then it's made out that
Speaker 1: Frank Conferter, like the characters that present female like whether
Speaker 1: that be Frank Conferter, or that the Janet being like
Speaker 1: feeling welcome to have sex well in audience full of
Speaker 1: people thirty years later screaming sled her like they are
Speaker 1: more are aggressively punished by the narratives that makes a
Speaker 1: lot of sense. Oh boy. I mean, just to touch
Speaker 1: on a few of the other female characters, not that
Speaker 1: there are many, but um comb Magenta is riff Raff's
Speaker 1: sister slash lover question Mark um Like that whole storyline
Speaker 1: is she's pretty sidelined. Like there's a few scenes where
Speaker 1: she's like talking to Columbia and then like but never
Speaker 1: really doing anything. Or the only scene where she's talking
Speaker 1: to Columbia is the scene that is the Bectel test
Speaker 1: mind funk of this movie, where it's Columbia and Magenta
Speaker 1: talking to each other as they're watching a TV screen
Speaker 1: of with that clearly without consented Janet Janet and Rocky
Speaker 1: is a baby is a born sexy yesterday? But yeah
Speaker 1: it's true, which is a subversion that I like sometimes
Speaker 1: that people like I'm subverting the troupe. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: so you're just hurting someone else, cool, good for you.
Speaker 1: But like they're they like Columbia Magenta are watching and
Speaker 1: you know, unconsented twitch stream of Susan Saranda during her
Speaker 1: high school soprano like catch me. So they're watching people
Speaker 1: funk without their consent and making fun of them, and
Speaker 1: it is the it doesn't but we'll get there. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess my point is like Magenta truly
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter to this story at all. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm sure she's a beloved character, but like even when
Speaker 1: like mostly it seems like riff Raff has decided like
Speaker 1: I'm going to overthrow this mad scientist and you know,
Speaker 1: kill him and then take oh like fly this ship
Speaker 1: out of here. You know, Magenta is very sidelined in
Speaker 1: that scene, which I think is partially because Richard O'Brien
Speaker 1: is like film me, I'm ready for my close to
Speaker 1: an actor. But yeah, I mean, I think overall the
Speaker 1: movie doesn't care very much about its female characters. And
Speaker 1: I also viewed Colombia being another person who sort of
Speaker 1: falls dead at the end of the movie to be
Speaker 1: that the only people were I mean, Frankenfurter's character. I
Speaker 1: would say, it's like kind of inconsistent towards the end.
Speaker 1: Where towards the end, I think that Frankenfurter's song has
Speaker 1: become very sympathetic, where uh, you know, he's singing don't
Speaker 1: dream it be It and is singing about you know,
Speaker 1: like challenging things. Oh yeah, I mean I will say
Speaker 1: like as a kid, like no, like very few like
Speaker 1: lines and songs spoke to me as much as like
Speaker 1: whatever happened to Fayray that delicate satin drape frame as
Speaker 1: I something like I started to cry because I wanted
Speaker 1: to be dressed just the same, and like that lyric
Speaker 1: means like I'm not gonna hear but that, but that
Speaker 1: like lyric, like that is so sympathetic towards like what
Speaker 1: I felt like myself going through at that time, and
Speaker 1: like to hear it has expressed very lovely. I think
Speaker 1: that it is such a lovely expression of of what
Speaker 1: I felt and what that character is feeling. And like
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just I yeah, it gets very
Speaker 1: he gets very sympathetic at the end. Yeah, he really doesn't.
Speaker 1: In those last songs, they're very beautiful and they're very honest,
Speaker 1: and they are not the cannibal murderer of forty five
Speaker 1: minutes ago, certainly, And it's only then that Frank Inverter
Speaker 1: is killed, when when he's expressing his most like concise truth,
Speaker 1: as well as Colombia, who I think is a reference
Speaker 1: to a movie company, uh being being the only one too.
Speaker 1: I mean female character, so shriek out in his defense.
Speaker 1: But she's the only person besides Rocky who expresses upset
Speaker 1: at his being killed, and so she's killed and Rocky's killed.
Speaker 1: And because Janet and Brad and Dr Scott are the
Speaker 1: bystanders who said nothing, they get to go on and
Speaker 1: live their lives. And that feels like kind of sending
Speaker 1: a I don't know how intentional it would have been
Speaker 1: at the time, but it does sort of seem to
Speaker 1: send a message of like, the people who stood up
Speaker 1: for the one character that expressed their truth at least
Speaker 1: at the very end, Uh, go down with that character.
Speaker 1: And that my academic So yeah, that those are those
Speaker 1: are my thoughts on Frankenfurter. Yeah, Wow, there's there's just
Speaker 1: so much. So I think that there's a little bit
Speaker 1: to be said about Brad here where I mean, I
Speaker 1: think one of the few things that I am like,
Speaker 1: yeah sure about the live culture of the movie is
Speaker 1: shouting asshole at Brad because he is an asshole. Uh
Speaker 1: we're at the beginning. I like that they're kind of
Speaker 1: satirizing the expectations of like the traditional like sis Head,
Speaker 1: White couple of this time where there it does it
Speaker 1: does seem like it's trying to be implied at the
Speaker 1: beginning that they're only getting engaged because they feel like
Speaker 1: that's what they're supposed to do. They're at a marriage
Speaker 1: they you know, Janet is like, oh, I need to
Speaker 1: get married next, and then Brad like, okay, like his
Speaker 1: that's the whole vibe damage and she's like, um, well,
Speaker 1: even like the choreography, it's just like he's like saying it,
Speaker 1: but he's like physically like removing himself from it. It's
Speaker 1: like it's a darting away. Yeah, and and and so
Speaker 1: I mean, and I'm going to just kind of remove
Speaker 1: the assault scenes from this analysis because those seem to
Speaker 1: be kind of a thing unto themselves that aren't dealt
Speaker 1: well well within this movie. But in general, uh, Brad
Speaker 1: seems to be this character that is acting on what
Speaker 1: he thinks he is supposed to be doing. He is
Speaker 1: completely almost acting on like what the expectations of a
Speaker 1: quote unquote man at this time should be doing. And
Speaker 1: then we see him and Janet at the end when
Speaker 1: they're unstatuified question mark um, you know, and they're all
Speaker 1: they're all wearing the frank confurter um. Why can't I
Speaker 1: think of the word. Yeah, they're all wearing the uniform
Speaker 1: basically at this point, and they sing about how they
Speaker 1: feel liberated, and that leads into dunk dream it be it,
Speaker 1: And I do like the idea of where that arc goes.
Speaker 1: I truly detest that a jokey rape scene is part
Speaker 1: as one of the main plot points that helps them
Speaker 1: again to that place. But taking I mean, one of
Speaker 1: the I thought the more effective commentaries of this movie
Speaker 1: is taking that that very trope couple that's like, I
Speaker 1: guess we're getting married. I guess we love each other,
Speaker 1: and then taking them on this journey and ending them
Speaker 1: with like Janet saying that she has all this new
Speaker 1: sexual confidence and that she feels like a new person,
Speaker 1: and Brad doing that really kick that made me horny
Speaker 1: when I was little, the very spinny yeah, not full kick,
Speaker 1: and then the shutter is it okay? But like but again,
Speaker 1: that also implies that the queer characters are there to
Speaker 1: further the straight character's narratives. So there, there's there's just
Speaker 1: there's truly every problem. Indeed, Yeah, Brad is an interesting
Speaker 1: underwritten character, much like every character in this true I
Speaker 1: don't know if I have that much else. Does anyone
Speaker 1: else have any other final thoughts? Not really, I mean
Speaker 1: I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure that there's stuff we're missing here.
Speaker 1: Uh you know, uh, we're all watching this together. Last
Speaker 1: night I was like, I love meat loaf, and then
Speaker 1: I googled meat loaf politics, and now I don't. Yeah, yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: I propose we can all still listen A bad out
Speaker 1: of Hell. But yeah, I don't google meat loaf politics.
Speaker 1: He is addicted to Mitt Romney. Yeah, yeah, to him,
Speaker 1: the main Romney. Yeah, it's it's nasty and boring. So yeah,
Speaker 1: there we go. Shall we take a few moments for
Speaker 1: some audience questions comments? Story? But oh well, actually I
Speaker 1: have a I have a friend here. Uh and she
Speaker 1: was like a pretty active part of like a Rocky
Speaker 1: You were in the Rocky Horror scene, right, Kate, my
Speaker 1: friend Kate Rap Hi, everyone to give my friend Kate
Speaker 1: wrapped a hand like you have like a bicoastal like
Speaker 1: Rocky Horror story. Rights. Yes, yes, yea Kate rap my
Speaker 1: righting partner comes to our show at some point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's at some point. Okay, so I'll make this really quick.
Speaker 1: But I did go to the like the new art
Speaker 1: shows in high school because I grew up in the
Speaker 1: South Bay not too far from here, and I remember
Speaker 1: being like seventeen and thinking that Rocky was super hot.
Speaker 1: I mean, like the guy who plays Rocky is just
Speaker 1: like an icon in any Rocky Horror performance, like, and
Speaker 1: I saw him after the show, and I don't know
Speaker 1: how it happened, because I did get like probably black
Speaker 1: out drunk, which is also like a weird part of
Speaker 1: the Rocky Horror live show culture, like they like want
Speaker 1: young children to get very drunk. It's very weird, like
Speaker 1: you're back. Yeah. So I was like very drunk, and
Speaker 1: I made out with Rocky, like I think, just in
Speaker 1: front of the theater like at the New York Like
Speaker 1: we didn't go to a bar or anything afterwards. So
Speaker 1: I was like, this was the highlight of my life.
Speaker 1: I was like seventeen. I got to make out with
Speaker 1: Rocky and then he takes his wig off and he
Speaker 1: looks very different, and I was just like, this is strange,
Speaker 1: Like I'm feeling something different now. I was, You're a
Speaker 1: real human, this is not the same anyway. Um fast forward,
Speaker 1: I go to college in New York like a year later,
Speaker 1: and he's like doing a guest slot at the like
Speaker 1: Chelsea in New York like version of Rocky Horror. And
Speaker 1: I made out with him again, So I mean I
Speaker 1: with Rocky twice. It's the height of my sexual conquest.
Speaker 1: And I think he's like a Trump supporter now, so
Speaker 1: he like sucks. What is I think he's like, really
Speaker 1: he's really be it might have been meat load. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, thank you for sho you feel slightly guilty
Speaker 1: because like when I when I asked, you, like, come
Speaker 1: tell the story. It's gonna be really fun, and then
Speaker 1: I was I did not also say like we're gonna
Speaker 1: be talking about rap scenes for like minutes. Build enough
Speaker 1: to the questions comments, any thoughts from from anyone? Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yes, and the person who has not seen Rocky
Speaker 1: Horror before, I just want to know which role Alfred
Speaker 1: mull Thank you so much. Drasing Well, I think if
Speaker 1: we're under selling his talents, which we never should, uh,
Speaker 1: he would play an excellent Brad. It would bring you know,
Speaker 1: not to not to downplay Berry or his kicks, but
Speaker 1: you know, couldn't bring a lot more. But you know,
Speaker 1: he could have brought a lot more to that role,
Speaker 1: I think. But Ultimately, I think that we should have
Speaker 1: had him playing Rocky Horror, Like we really need a
Speaker 1: British beefcake in that role. Um, and not an American model.
Speaker 1: Is there anyone? I mean he also could have play River.
Speaker 1: I mean he could have played literally anyone in the
Speaker 1: movie nowadays. He could be like, like, well, I think
Speaker 1: I could see him as the criminologist. Obviously he's in
Speaker 1: Frozen two. He is. Yeah, another reason to see Frozen two.
Speaker 1: I know, well, Alfred Billio is in it. He I mean,
Speaker 1: as usual, any role will do, But I feel like
Speaker 1: Tim Curry has to play Frank Confurter. That's the only
Speaker 1: like normally I will displace any actor in favor of
Speaker 1: Alfread Billina. But I do think that Tim Curry will
Speaker 1: stay h and Alfred Billina would not be like I mean,
Speaker 1: as we know, he's our friend. He's our friend, he's
Speaker 1: not a diva. He won't be like I can't believe
Speaker 1: he would say, I'm just thrilled to be here. Yeah
Speaker 1: that's true. Um yeah, but started going off of what
Speaker 1: he was saying about the pressure to get teens drunk.
Speaker 1: That is one thing that I didn't mention in my
Speaker 1: discussion of the community of there have been issues with
Speaker 1: the upside of the community is that everyone is welcome
Speaker 1: regardless of age, so you have young teens coming into
Speaker 1: the community. The downside of that is that there are
Speaker 1: pictures posted of scantily clad teenagers without their consent, alcohol
Speaker 1: being passed around to them, and a lot of sexual
Speaker 1: pressure being put on young people without any regard for
Speaker 1: their age. So just a fun thing me love, Yes,
Speaker 1: he's alive or do we have any other com questions
Speaker 1: or commute? Jumping off from the discussion of trans women
Speaker 1: being the villains also psycho yes, yes, drasticill is, terror
Speaker 1: is terrible and the complete something changed. I'm sorry, but
Speaker 1: spirit Halloween. Um, I think it should be discussed whether
Speaker 1: or not Frank comes scaps. I no one has ever
Speaker 1: wanted to bring this up before. People are usually upsetting, horrified. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let's open the floor here Frankenfurter. When Frankenfurter comes,
Speaker 1: we usually have this conversation and regards to Beetle'll just
Speaker 1: pull let's up in it up to Frankenfurter. What the
Speaker 1: material that has come with it? I think it would
Speaker 1: be like, no, well, well we're not the thing that
Speaker 1: bothers me is that people are like, it's not scaps.
Speaker 1: It's for sure scaps. But even for even for Frankenfurter
Speaker 1: Halloween characters comes scaps. Okay, it's cannon. Okay, it's cannon.
Speaker 1: But the question where or dry he's well, he's an
Speaker 1: a like you know, he's an alien, so like we
Speaker 1: don't know what his internal internal like biology is like
Speaker 1: you know what kind of what organs he does or
Speaker 1: doesn't have, So like, yeah, I think like I think
Speaker 1: he comes from a race where anybody comes scabs. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: but are they are they dry? Um, they're wet? Yeah,
Speaker 1: team wet scat, you're dry the wet they're usual. I
Speaker 1: am always team dry scap. Imagine the card of the
Speaker 1: deck of cards literally beetle juice comes dry scabs like yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: just like like like a machine gun, yes yeah, just
Speaker 1: a one scab after another and then wet scabs. I
Speaker 1: can't say it enough. Is a laser jab printer printing
Speaker 1: a full color? Okay, we had some other we got
Speaker 1: to change something, other questions, other comments, Yes, come come
Speaker 1: on down. Just another quick thing. At the beginning of
Speaker 1: the film, when at the wedding scene, where the car
Speaker 1: drives up and on the side of the car it
Speaker 1: says like just married and like shaving cream, and right
Speaker 1: below that it says she just got hers. Now tonight
Speaker 1: he's gonna get his, which is very iggy. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: thank you for pointing that out. I guess that's like
Speaker 1: commentary on how like, oh, this is how straight people be,
Speaker 1: but I don't even know I think that. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: it has a comment on like women want marriage, men
Speaker 1: want to just that you know that bridal party. Don't
Speaker 1: put that much on the car, right yeah, your friend's relationship,
Speaker 1: that's not your jobs per funcing on the bride's friends friends.
Speaker 1: To make no mistake, this couple is problematic and all
Speaker 1: the expected we are going is goodbye. We're gonna use
Speaker 1: this in the chance to sub tweet them. But I
Speaker 1: also feel like that opening sequence with like the wedding
Speaker 1: and everything is like, oh, look look at these fucking
Speaker 1: normies and their heteronormativity. Wait till you get to the
Speaker 1: castle and that's when things get cool and fun and
Speaker 1: you get hosted and then also you will be assaulted.
Speaker 1: Um so than you know, problems winning. Uh, well, does
Speaker 1: the movie pass the Bechdel test? No, no, it does.
Speaker 1: It does. There we was there, we was so there
Speaker 1: was a there's the one question mark scene where we
Speaker 1: were all sort of like, might it yes? The question
Speaker 1: is is it saying someone's dialogue back to them or
Speaker 1: in a mimicking tone countess dialogue? Like it's it's like
Speaker 1: being like that is that that kind of dialogue? And
Speaker 1: that's the Magenta Columbia scene that we have alluded to
Speaker 1: you before, but ultimately for me because in this scene
Speaker 1: it is two women with names talking to each other
Speaker 1: about surveilling a heterosexual couple without their consented and making
Speaker 1: fun of them. I say it doesn't pass right. I
Speaker 1: mean the line goes because they're watching Janets sing a
Speaker 1: song too Rocky about how she just had sex with Frankenfurter,
Speaker 1: and Magenta says do you mean she, and Columbie says
Speaker 1: uh huh. And that's the only scene I clocked where
Speaker 1: women interact. Later, they do sing refrained like a touch
Speaker 1: of touch me I wanted to dirty back and forth
Speaker 1: to each other. That is then like just sn't like yeah,
Speaker 1: which like passes I guess on paper. But the context
Speaker 1: is like they're talking about the kind of hetero sex
Speaker 1: with a man and just like, regardless the fact that there,
Speaker 1: I mean, that would be maybe our wildest pass yet
Speaker 1: that like watching people fucking without their consent and making
Speaker 1: fun of them somehow passes. The still tasks like almost
Speaker 1: regardless of what they're saying, Like even if they're watching
Speaker 1: an unconsented feed of people having sex and being like,
Speaker 1: so have you read the latest Roxanne Gay, I'd still
Speaker 1: be like, I don't know that this passes. They're still
Speaker 1: doing something that's very illegal, so I don't Yeah, I
Speaker 1: I I don't think it passes from me. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: Times have rated on our nipple scale um zeroified nipples
Speaker 1: based on its representation of women, but all things considered
Speaker 1: based on our entire discussion because there's value in this
Speaker 1: movie like being kind of, you know, a gateway for
Speaker 1: people who might be questioning their sexuality or gender to
Speaker 1: kind of have exposure to something. This might have been
Speaker 1: more true in decades past because now there is more
Speaker 1: content available the focuses on queer narratives, but because it
Speaker 1: does have such a big cultural impact. Um. But then
Speaker 1: also the movie truly doesn't really have any vested interest
Speaker 1: in any of its female characters. They impacted the plot
Speaker 1: almost none, and I'm getting there. The prologue is, um,
Speaker 1: I have to say like one and a half, I
Speaker 1: was gonna say, is that too how low? Or too high?
Speaker 1: Too high? The audience? O, my god? Stand thank you? Okay, fine,
Speaker 1: I'll apologize again and I'll stand by my decisions. Okay,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. I'm so like Coodness you're yelling
Speaker 1: at her. There you guys. I'm also everyone is I'm
Speaker 1: still dressed as brad Um. Okay, one and a half
Speaker 1: nipples and I will give one of them to Tim
Speaker 1: Curry and my half nimble to Susan Surrandon, but for
Speaker 1: Thelma and Louise and not this movie. I'm also going
Speaker 1: to go one and a half. I don't want any comments,
Speaker 1: thank you. No, I'm gonna go one and a half.
Speaker 1: I appreciate and still, you know, like I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's I'm glad that the Rocky horror cultural legacy exists.
Speaker 1: I think that it has a ton of value, especially
Speaker 1: in its time, and I think that it is like
Speaker 1: more of a region to region influence than most of
Speaker 1: the movies that we cover were Like I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean in in some reasons, I would imagine that
Speaker 1: Rocky Horror is still an extremely valuable resource of community
Speaker 1: for people who are questioning or want to be involved
Speaker 1: in the queer community to go to. UM. So I
Speaker 1: am very grateful for its legacy. In terms of content,
Speaker 1: as we you said, it's all fucking over the place. Uh.
Speaker 1: It does not have a lot of regard for its
Speaker 1: female characters. It is not a very thoughtful representation of
Speaker 1: really anybody at all. UM very white movie as well,
Speaker 1: extremely white movie. You only see people of color in
Speaker 1: background shots, and they can't afford to bring the extras
Speaker 1: back in every scene, so it is just it is
Speaker 1: a mess. I am glad that it was successful. I
Speaker 1: think this is a great example of a movie we've
Speaker 1: covered that paved the way for better perspectives. Because this
Speaker 1: movie had a one point four million dollar budget and
Speaker 1: made one hundred times its budget at the box office.
Speaker 1: It was extraordinarily successful and so for all of its many,
Speaker 1: many many faults that we've discussed, a movie being that
Speaker 1: successful and presenting queer culture in any way I feel
Speaker 1: like does pave the way for uh, more qualified voices
Speaker 1: and more progressive voices to take the lead. Because with
Speaker 1: when it comes to you know, the capitalistic night where
Speaker 1: we live in. If something makes money, people will give
Speaker 1: those types of narratives more of an opportunity with different writers.
Speaker 1: So I'm glad it exists. And uh and and one
Speaker 1: and a half nippies for that and that alone. I
Speaker 1: will give one to Tim Curry and I'm going to
Speaker 1: give a half e too, Rocky because he was a baby.
Speaker 1: He was a baby, and we didn't talk about that enough.
Speaker 1: Born Sexy yesterday. Look up the trope. This is the
Speaker 1: only male example we've recovered of it. Um. I think
Speaker 1: both of what you said was stating very elegantly about
Speaker 1: you know, the cult of the importance of the cultural
Speaker 1: impact of the film and uh, you know, speaking to
Speaker 1: someone who can relate to that, you know, to some extent,
Speaker 1: it wasn't the most important or influential piece of you know,
Speaker 1: queer media in my in my youth, um, but it
Speaker 1: was still like it was still important to me there
Speaker 1: for me at certain points that I agree with all that. Um,
Speaker 1: But I do think, you know, it really seems like
Speaker 1: this is a subculture for you know that I'd love
Speaker 1: to sit to see stick around, but also like a
Speaker 1: lot of subcult like you know, subcultures right now need
Speaker 1: to be like reevaluated, you know, yes updated, you know,
Speaker 1: we can find a better thing to what's the progressive
Speaker 1: thing we can Yet, like Janet every time she comes
Speaker 1: on screen, does exactly watch the Videl the Vicdel's cat.
Speaker 1: Um they should all be pluns for your for your powers.
Speaker 1: Um but um so yeah so I and I think
Speaker 1: I like that their their voices within the space now
Speaker 1: sticking up, trying to find the trying to find ways
Speaker 1: to you know, bring bring you know, Rocky Horror for
Speaker 1: as you know, messy and uh complicated a piece of entertainment.
Speaker 1: It is, bring that culture, bring that community into you know,
Speaker 1: into nineteen and beyond. And that's something you know, because
Speaker 1: it would it wouldn't make me sad. It would make
Speaker 1: me sad to think that like Rocky Horror just like
Speaker 1: stopped existing because you know, I did a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, this morning, I did a lot of research,
Speaker 1: you know or not am I read like three wikipe
Speaker 1: I read like three articles online. I did a ton
Speaker 1: of research. Um but I like you know, found like
Speaker 1: like um articles from you know, like little like colleges
Speaker 1: like in the middle of the country and for them
Speaker 1: like you know, like from like literally like this, like
Speaker 1: this October, like a couple like a week or two
Speaker 1: ago talking about you know, like you know, Rocky Horror.
Speaker 1: You know, coming to campus is like this big deal
Speaker 1: and it is like you know, they like one of
Speaker 1: one of like two or three, like you know, queer
Speaker 1: focused events they have every they have every year, some
Speaker 1: pieces not even every year. So you know, I think
Speaker 1: there is still like an importance and a you know
Speaker 1: outside of maybe where we are, outside of our bubble,
Speaker 1: like there's still a lot of like good community can do.
Speaker 1: So long as it a key, it evolves, and you know,
Speaker 1: um yeah, and I guess I would say I'm gonna
Speaker 1: stay on the one and a half stars training and
Speaker 1: say I'll give I'm gonna give a half a star
Speaker 1: to Tim Curry and then I'll give one half to
Speaker 1: the Magagina and one half Columbia. And for the very
Speaker 1: cool normal activity of painting each other's toe nails. Yes,
Speaker 1: which does so? I think we're talking to painting to
Speaker 1: like painting your friend's house is a form of communication.
Speaker 1: It is, yes, yes, we think about Oh goodness, well, John,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Give it up
Speaker 1: for John Ford. John Buss where can people follow you?
Speaker 1: What would you like to plug? Tell us everything? Oh gosh, um,
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter and Instagram. Is Joan Hailey Ford I
Speaker 1: have a If you're in l a uh Me and
Speaker 1: Kate have a show coming up December twelve at the
Speaker 1: UCB Theater. It's our two person sketch team Red and Yellow.
Speaker 1: So please come, please come see that eight thirty UCB
Speaker 1: K Which which theater? Is it? Sun Sat? You see
Speaker 1: sun Sat? There you go? Yeah? Yeah, Scot, Joan and
Speaker 1: thank you too, so so much for coming. Thank you
Speaker 1: to the Ruby Theater. Thank you to Aristotle, all staff
Speaker 1: of the Ruby is Thank you Jamie than you can.
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming. Have a good night. There you
Speaker 1: have it our live Rocky Horror Picture Show show. Thanks
Speaker 1: again to everyone who came out. Thanks again to the
Speaker 1: Ruby for having us. Don't forget about our final live
Speaker 1: l A show at that location at the Ruby on
Speaker 1: November nine, We're covering Home Alone. Don't miss it. Details
Speaker 1: for that and other live shows that we do in
Speaker 1: various locations can be found on places like bechtel cast
Speaker 1: dot com, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. You can follow us
Speaker 1: on those platforms at bechtel Cast also don't forget to
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Speaker 1: dot com slash Bechtel Cast. A subscription gets you to
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Speaker 1: You can also visit our merch store at t public
Speaker 1: dot com slash the Bechtel Cast for all of your
Speaker 1: merchandizing needs, including some spooky designs like feminist icon Beetlejuice,
Speaker 1: Team dry Scabs, Team wet Scabs, and his Wife. Other
Speaker 1: than that, just go and do the time warp again
Speaker 1: by