Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome
Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson. So,
Speaker 1: as you may recall, on Monday's episode, which was just
Speaker 1: two days ago, we featured musician in World War Two
Speaker 1: Dutch resistant agent Frieda Bell and Fonte And that episode,
Speaker 1: as we mentioned, was inspired by the team at the
Speaker 1: Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh and they are amazing comic book
Speaker 1: project Hutzpau. So today we have interviews with the people
Speaker 1: at the Holocaust Center. Holly is the person who conducted
Speaker 1: these interviews. It's with folks who worked on this comic
Speaker 1: to talk about how the project works and how they
Speaker 1: create each issue and what they're hoping readers will take
Speaker 1: away from it. And you're gonna hear from three different
Speaker 1: people today. The first of those is writer Bertie Willis.
Speaker 1: She is an absolute delight and she wrote Frieda's story
Speaker 1: for the upcoming edition of Hutzpau and the way that
Speaker 1: she managed to get into the story is really lovely,
Speaker 1: and she's going to talk about it. Bertie, will you
Speaker 1: first tell us about who you are and you're writing
Speaker 1: background a little bit, certainly so. My name is Bertie
Speaker 1: Willis UM. I have been working in comics for oh
Speaker 1: about eight years. I would say most of it has
Speaker 1: been self published up until recently, UM, where I was
Speaker 1: contracted to work on the most recent mini series comic
Speaker 1: for Over the Garden Wall, which is a Cartoon Network property, UH,
Speaker 1: and I did five issues of that. I am also
Speaker 1: currently in the process of working on to two graphic novels.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately there's an NDA on both of them, so I
Speaker 1: can't really talk much about them, as well as another
Speaker 1: graphic novel for middle schoolers detailing another life of a
Speaker 1: historical person UM. So I'm very excited about that. I
Speaker 1: was thrilled when I was approached by Marcellen asked to
Speaker 1: do just write at least one story for Footstile, and
Speaker 1: then I consider myself very fortunate to have the privilege
Speaker 1: to write too, and one of them to be about Frieda.
Speaker 1: Frieda is amazing. She is. One thing that I noticed
Speaker 1: when we prepped our episode about her biography is that
Speaker 1: she is tricky because she's so immensely quotable, and she
Speaker 1: had such a full life and there are so many
Speaker 1: moments to talk about, and so many moments of her
Speaker 1: life that she describes in really really picturesque detail. How
Speaker 1: did you decide on your focus to tell part of
Speaker 1: her story as a bigger, a small element in the
Speaker 1: bigger Holocaust story. What I found that was easy to
Speaker 1: connect Frieda and Frieda's life was her passion for music.
Speaker 1: So I found that in incorporating different music terminology to
Speaker 1: describe the events that happened in her life leading to
Speaker 1: her with the Resistance and leaving Amsterdam and then coming
Speaker 1: to America and being part of the Orange County Um
Speaker 1: Symphonic Orchestra, that uh it just it was woven throughout
Speaker 1: her entire life in what better ways than to use
Speaker 1: music to describe someone who's so vibrant, that's so perfect.
Speaker 1: I know there have been a lot of times, just
Speaker 1: even working on our history show, where sometimes the material
Speaker 1: gets just a little bit too emotionally heavy and we
Speaker 1: need to step away for a little while. Uh do
Speaker 1: you ever find it difficult to work with such serious
Speaker 1: subject matter sometimes? I was trained as a history major,
Speaker 1: so that was my degree. I find I'm able to
Speaker 1: step back from the material as I don't want to
Speaker 1: create some sort of bias, but that was in my training.
Speaker 1: I think that with Frieda, knowing how much she was
Speaker 1: sort of uh, she just had a very lighthearted way
Speaker 1: of doing things and speaking about things that were often
Speaker 1: so serious in any of the interviews that I've seen
Speaker 1: that it was hard not to find that a little
Speaker 1: infectious and to utilize that in the best way to
Speaker 1: represent her. Yeah, she was an incredibly upbeat person, particularly
Speaker 1: considering some of the difficult times she had. It's always
Speaker 1: startling in a wonderful way to me to to see
Speaker 1: interviews with her or to read transcripts of those interviews
Speaker 1: where she's talking about very serious and sometimes dark things,
Speaker 1: but she is oddly upbeat about it. Have you heard
Speaker 1: the story about the viola di gamba, Yes, but we
Speaker 1: did not put it in our podcast, So tell it please, Okay.
Speaker 1: So she was and I forgot the orchestra, or I've
Speaker 1: forgotten the the town in which she she found this paper,
Speaker 1: but she had gotten an engagement and it was to
Speaker 1: play cello, and she had written down that she played cello,
Speaker 1: viola de gamba, and piano. And when the flyer or
Speaker 1: the I suppose the article came out about what these
Speaker 1: people would be playing in the orchestra. It said so
Speaker 1: and so violin, uh freda bell and pante cello and
Speaker 1: ziola de gamba piano, and and she found that so funny,
Speaker 1: she said, as she wished she had saved the paper,
Speaker 1: but she did not, But she said she had a
Speaker 1: wonderful chuckle over it. And I just remember laughing very
Speaker 1: hard at that interview while watching it, and I thought, oh,
Speaker 1: she is just she just has a wonderful sense of humor.
Speaker 1: I I she sounds like something like someone I would
Speaker 1: have loved to have gotten to know. I had to
Speaker 1: laugh because there are so many moments in her life
Speaker 1: where she kind of mentions. And there's that great interview
Speaker 1: in the documentary about her with her sister that says
Speaker 1: the same, like her sister comments that like boys and
Speaker 1: girls were both incredibly drawn to her, and then Frieda
Speaker 1: comments at various points that like, she didn't ask for
Speaker 1: people to constantly be hitting on her, but they always were.
Speaker 1: But then watching her talk, I'm like, I completely understand
Speaker 1: why everyone on the planet fell in love with you
Speaker 1: when they met you. I completely get it. Oh, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1: Here she is in her documentary saying, I just don't
Speaker 1: know why people fell in love with me, and here
Speaker 1: are seven more women saying, oh, Frieda, Frieda, Frieda Frieda.
Speaker 1: She's incredibly lovable. She was. My particular favorite moment is
Speaker 1: her talking about Henriette and how she almost out of
Speaker 1: a world dance movie, goes in Henriette the very first
Speaker 1: time they meet, and Henriette is like, why are you
Speaker 1: Why do you stay? And she says because I love you,
Speaker 1: and she's like, and I grabbed her and I said
Speaker 1: because I love you, And I thought, oh goodness, if
Speaker 1: that's not the most playboy thing I've heard, how wonderful? Right?
Speaker 1: I was clapping and cheering just watching this documentary to
Speaker 1: the part where my wife had to come in and say,
Speaker 1: what are you doing? So just watching a woman do
Speaker 1: her thing, dear, just watching she's she's really, i mean,
Speaker 1: like charismatic in a way that is so hard to
Speaker 1: describe because she's not particularly like she's very witty and
Speaker 1: funny and like we said, like just great turn of phrase,
Speaker 1: and so confident about who she is in her place
Speaker 1: in the world. But she's not like one of those big,
Speaker 1: like look at me showbody people. But she's just incredibly magnetic.
Speaker 1: It's really astonishing. She really had this magnetic personality that
Speaker 1: but also this very confident sense of self in the
Speaker 1: way she seemed to hold herself. I think it was
Speaker 1: the combination of the two that really drew people to her.
Speaker 1: My last question for you about Freedom Story and about
Speaker 1: this project in general, is why it is your biggest
Speaker 1: wish for readers to take away from this project when
Speaker 1: they close the comic and they walk away, What is
Speaker 1: it that you hope comes out of the pages and
Speaker 1: leaves with them. I think to understand that is more
Speaker 1: than just stories. These are people, some people who survived
Speaker 1: the Holocaust and people who didn't. But regardless, they are people,
Speaker 1: and they are people that should be known and talked
Speaker 1: about and understood that their lives were full of meaning
Speaker 1: until until the Nazis invaded and took there, took everything away.
Speaker 1: And to understand and have compassion and empathy for these people,
Speaker 1: that's so beautiful. Next up, I got to talk to
Speaker 1: Jackie Reese, who works in marketing and education for the
Speaker 1: Holocaust Center. One of the awesome things about Jackie is
Speaker 1: that she prepped a huge educator's guide for Hutzpa and Holly.
Speaker 1: We'll talk to her about that in the course of
Speaker 1: this interview, Jackie. First of all, will you just explain
Speaker 1: to our listeners a little bit your role at the
Speaker 1: Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh. Sure. So, I am the marketing
Speaker 1: and education associate at the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh, which
Speaker 1: means they were a lot of different hats, but within
Speaker 1: the context of Lutzpaw, I'm obviously the person who puts
Speaker 1: out information to the world about purchasing it and where
Speaker 1: they can get it. I am also on the education side, uh.
Speaker 1: I was the main person behind the Teacher's Resource Guide,
Speaker 1: which is about a hundred and fifty page resource booklet
Speaker 1: that we have available for educators on how to use
Speaker 1: Clizpaw in their classroom. So it comes with a lot
Speaker 1: of context building definitions, annotations, and five sample lesson plans.
Speaker 1: So currently it's it's designed for the first three volumes,
Speaker 1: but when we come out with volume four, I'll be
Speaker 1: working on a send them to it to keep it
Speaker 1: up to date. That resource is so fabulous. I have
Speaker 1: looked through it and it's amazing. We'll link to it
Speaker 1: in our show notes. One thing that I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you about is that when you're dealing with the
Speaker 1: community in the public. Maybe outside of education, how do
Speaker 1: you build that bridge and how do you use, for example,
Speaker 1: things like the comic but also other resources there at
Speaker 1: the Holocaust Center to communicate some history that can be
Speaker 1: very dark, but it's incredibly important to share with people. Sure, well,
Speaker 1: I know you said outside of education. But one of
Speaker 1: the things that I do also is when we do
Speaker 1: teacher trainings, I have a lesson that I run with
Speaker 1: teachers on how do we use comics in the classroom
Speaker 1: and what are the Basically we go through one of
Speaker 1: the stories and volume three Walter Bondinger's story, and there's
Speaker 1: very little text in that story, so I use it
Speaker 1: as a way to exemplify the fact that what's spoken,
Speaker 1: what's unspoken, and what is it that we're getting through imagery?
Speaker 1: And so my background is an art education and arts management.
Speaker 1: Uh so this is like my whole sort of adult pieces.
Speaker 1: Essentially is that we can use art in ways that
Speaker 1: sometimes individual subject areas can't really cover. So the idea
Speaker 1: of using art to convey the unconveyable, to feel the unfeelable.
Speaker 1: We do a lot of arts programming here at the Center,
Speaker 1: and we've noticed for certain that the exhibits and when
Speaker 1: we do art screenings and film screenings and things like that,
Speaker 1: it just reaches people in a way that no lecture
Speaker 1: or lesson or any sort of traditional learning style is
Speaker 1: going to reach them. Hutzpou, as you've mentioned, is about
Speaker 1: to go into its fourth volume. Uh so you've done
Speaker 1: three already. What has response been like to those initials three?
Speaker 1: It's been awesome. So I came on board while they
Speaker 1: were working on volume three, and I think just in
Speaker 1: the time that I've seen volume three be out in
Speaker 1: the world, we've been getting more and more awareness. Uh.
Speaker 1: We We've started getting orders from not just across the
Speaker 1: United States, but across the world. We we've gotten orders
Speaker 1: from as far away as Australia. Uh. We've received contacts
Speaker 1: from various organizations who would like to do some version
Speaker 1: of Kutzpau in their communities, both local Holocaust stories in
Speaker 1: different cities, but also other places that are doing things
Speaker 1: that where they're talking about different topics and they want
Speaker 1: to use what we call the Kutztow model to talk
Speaker 1: about those difficult topics in a way that gives that
Speaker 1: information to people in a way that they can absorb
Speaker 1: it um and then just people. People really respond to it.
Speaker 1: The kids. We we have kids here all the time
Speaker 1: who like they idolize Marcel. So I'm excited you'll get
Speaker 1: to talk to him that he's just a hero to
Speaker 1: so many kids. And I've met so many grandparents who
Speaker 1: are like, I have to buy this for my grandkid,
Speaker 1: Like this is the best Christmas president I could get them. Um,
Speaker 1: not a plug, but plug. And yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: one of those things where people think of it in
Speaker 1: many ways is a youth tool, but it's something that
Speaker 1: people of all ages can actually get behind. And I
Speaker 1: would say just from sort of an outsider perspective because
Speaker 1: I came in on three. Just seeing the way the
Speaker 1: stories have evolved through the various volumes has been really incredible.
Speaker 1: So one, you know, they were laying the groundwork too,
Speaker 1: they were kind of pulling that together. Three was my favorite,
Speaker 1: but now that I've been reading the scripts for four,
Speaker 1: four is going to be the best one, I can
Speaker 1: tell you. Uh, And the fourth one focuses entirely on women. Yes,
Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about that and
Speaker 1: what lad you guys to make that decision? And also
Speaker 1: just kind of how it's evolved over time. Sure. So
Speaker 1: there's a couple of different thought processes behind that, one
Speaker 1: of which being every year here at the Alocausts on
Speaker 1: our Pittsburgh we do a different theme that we sort
Speaker 1: of based our programs around the last year was women
Speaker 1: in the Holocaust. Now, we picked that theme because men, women, children,
Speaker 1: non binary, everybody who went through the Holocaust suffered, but
Speaker 1: women had unique ways of suffering that differ from maybe
Speaker 1: the male experience, just in terms of that their femininity
Speaker 1: could be used against them and could also be a
Speaker 1: tool of theirs to regain their humanity. So, uh, we
Speaker 1: love the idea of using volume for to really hone
Speaker 1: in on that theme and take it from more. I
Speaker 1: would say this, this volume really kind of takes a
Speaker 1: more personal approach than maybe any of the other ones
Speaker 1: have more more intimate and emotional and and I think
Speaker 1: it's it's really beautiful. Do you have a favorite of
Speaker 1: the subjects that you guys ended up selecting for this volume, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm a will buyas towards Frieda because that was one
Speaker 1: I suggested. So she's also, as I discussed Bertie, incredibly
Speaker 1: charming and appealing. Yes, absolutely, I'm I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: through all of our topics, and I think Freedom might
Speaker 1: have to be my favorite because just she she's so multifaceted,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, she she's part of the resistance,
Speaker 1: and she you know, did not conform to gender norms
Speaker 1: in a time where it would have been so much
Speaker 1: easier just to do so. And she's also this groundbreaking
Speaker 1: musician like she was. She was leading the way in
Speaker 1: a time that it was not easy to do so,
Speaker 1: and she did it with style and flare and a
Speaker 1: sense of humor and how many what a hero. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say she's probably my favorite. Yeah. I actually
Speaker 1: feel like if you took away the war and all
Speaker 1: of the impact that had on her life and all
Speaker 1: of the amazing things she did with the Dutch Resistance,
Speaker 1: she would still have a really heroic story. Yeah, someone
Speaker 1: would still be featuring her superheroes of you know, the
Speaker 1: twentieth century, or superheroes of music, Like she's just a superhero,
Speaker 1: superheroes of lgbt Q plus community. Like she is just
Speaker 1: a superhero in so many different ways that it's it's
Speaker 1: awesome that that we get to feature her in this volume.
Speaker 1: I also think she would just be a superhero style
Speaker 1: she could like where whether she I've seen pictures of
Speaker 1: her in like full suits but also in like gowns
Speaker 1: downs that she describes as very plain, but on her
Speaker 1: they look incredibly chic and beautiful. Absolutely, well, that's the thing.
Speaker 1: I had seen her dress and more of a manly
Speaker 1: style when I first read about her, so that was
Speaker 1: sort of like the imagery I had of her, and
Speaker 1: then I thought pictures of her dress letter on, Oh
Speaker 1: my girl, she's just awesome. Yeah, she. I think it
Speaker 1: kind of emanates just from what a confident person she was,
Speaker 1: you know, anybody. Everybody looks better when they're confident, So
Speaker 1: I think that was her big thing. Well, and I've
Speaker 1: loved the idea of setting an example in a macro way,
Speaker 1: we're setting an example of heroes and pots poal, but
Speaker 1: on the micro level too, I think lots of women
Speaker 1: could could do to to learn more confidence, and so
Speaker 1: on just that level, she's a hero too, Jackie, what
Speaker 1: is your like vision for the future of Hutzpau When
Speaker 1: you think about what comes in volume five or six
Speaker 1: or seven, which I know is hard because you're in
Speaker 1: crunch time on four, But do you think to the
Speaker 1: future and about what you might be able to do
Speaker 1: with this comic absolutely, So I know Marcel has got
Speaker 1: I want to say, nine volumes planned, and he already
Speaker 1: knows what themes he wants to do for all of them.
Speaker 1: So in that respect, you know, he's already ten steps
Speaker 1: ahead of me in terms of imagination. But I definitely
Speaker 1: have a lot of I would just love to see
Speaker 1: more communities implementing kutz Pal into their until they're learning. UM.
Speaker 1: I love the idea of we we talk a lot
Speaker 1: about a Hutzpoal model and really building a out so
Speaker 1: other communities have the tools that they need to tell
Speaker 1: those stories in a way that is more accessible to people,
Speaker 1: and I would I would just love for it to
Speaker 1: be recognized not just for it's merit as a Holocaust
Speaker 1: education tool, but just as as a wonderful comic. I mean,
Speaker 1: Marcelle's got award winning artists on this thing. Marcel himself
Speaker 1: is an impressive force, so it's I would love to
Speaker 1: see it get recognitioned in that respect too. So that's
Speaker 1: my edition. Our final interview is with Marcelle Walker, who
Speaker 1: is in many ways the beating heart of this project.
Speaker 1: You heard Jackie essentially refer to him as just an
Speaker 1: idol of many kids in the area, so his segment
Speaker 1: is going to be the longest of the three. The
Speaker 1: segment really traces the project's whole history from the very beginning,
Speaker 1: as well as Marcell's passion for the work that is
Speaker 1: blazingly apparent. First, will you just to give us a
Speaker 1: little bit of context, talk about who you are and
Speaker 1: your work before you ever got to this comic, because
Speaker 1: I know you're big into animation, very near and dear
Speaker 1: to my heart. Uh, and you have worked on a
Speaker 1: lot of other art projects, So will you talk about
Speaker 1: those a little bit first? Sure? Sure, absolutely so. I'm
Speaker 1: I've been making comics literally all my life. I knew
Speaker 1: when I was six that this was gonna be my vocation. Uh,
Speaker 1: And looking back on it, it's it's a little strange
Speaker 1: because when you think about it, when we typically when
Speaker 1: people choose their their you know, their careers. Even if
Speaker 1: you could choose a career in your your teams, you're
Speaker 1: late teams, you're early twenties. You know, by the time
Speaker 1: you get into your forties, you know you you you're
Speaker 1: following a path that was set on when you were younger. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, and often you haven't experienced much of life,
Speaker 1: and I often think about, wow, I chose this one
Speaker 1: I was six, Um, But it was I just knew
Speaker 1: that that was what I needed and wanted to do. UM.
Speaker 1: I always envisioned myself making main stream comics, so Superman
Speaker 1: and Batman and you know, Spider Man, all those kinds
Speaker 1: of characters. I am very obsessive about the Superman. Anybody
Speaker 1: who knows me will tell you that. And so that's
Speaker 1: what I always figured I would be working on. But
Speaker 1: life will unfold the way that it unfold, and so
Speaker 1: that didn't quite happen, even though I did. I was
Speaker 1: always drawing, I was always making comics, and that was
Speaker 1: always my my goal. Uh. But however, you know, I
Speaker 1: started teaching comics illustration and comics classes and workshops when
Speaker 1: I was in my early to mid twenties, and this
Speaker 1: would have been the early mid nineties. I did that
Speaker 1: for a number of years, and that's where I learned
Speaker 1: a lot. Uh. And that's where my path kind of
Speaker 1: started to change a little bit. I was working more
Speaker 1: on my own independent comics. I started working for other
Speaker 1: clients and things. I was doing a lot of illustration work, uh,
Speaker 1: and I had a day job to support a lot
Speaker 1: of that. UH. And some years later, so this would
Speaker 1: have been the early two thousands, I also started doing
Speaker 1: work with the tune e M, which is the Museum
Speaker 1: of Comics Are Tuned part based here in Pittsburgh. So
Speaker 1: the founders of TUNS and I we were friends. We
Speaker 1: had met when I was working in the Pittsburgh Center
Speaker 1: of the Art teaching those workshops and classes. We stayed
Speaker 1: in touch. He started up the tune ZUM and the
Speaker 1: Tumuseum actually started working with the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh
Speaker 1: on the initiative that became Hutzpal. Before I was involved.
Speaker 1: I knew some of the participants that were on the
Speaker 1: initial committee, and this would have been late THIRTEENA believe
Speaker 1: or so I was aware that this was happening. And
Speaker 1: my understanding is when the project began, UH, they even
Speaker 1: though they wanted to use comics and cartoon art towards
Speaker 1: the purpose of revisiting Holocaust education, revamping Holocaust education, UH,
Speaker 1: they had not quite come to the decision to make
Speaker 1: a comic itself formally, but when that decision was made,
Speaker 1: the decision they decided to make a comic book and
Speaker 1: a companion traveling art exhibit. So the moment that was decided,
Speaker 1: I knew I was going to be involved with the project.
Speaker 1: And I always tell people that even if they had
Speaker 1: not tapped me to join them, I was going to
Speaker 1: be involved with that project. Um, and it just it
Speaker 1: just worked out, and so they did, in fact reach
Speaker 1: out to me. So that Uh, at that time when
Speaker 1: we were working on the first issue, we didn't have
Speaker 1: we didn't have a template to go by, but we
Speaker 1: I think we just had a very strong idea of
Speaker 1: what it needed to become. My good, very good friend
Speaker 1: and the lead project writer, Wayne Wise, he wrote all
Speaker 1: four of the stories that were featured in the first issue.
Speaker 1: UH and he you know, and then he reached out
Speaker 1: to different artists to illustrate each of the stories. UH
Speaker 1: and I ended up illustrating the story that told the
Speaker 1: story of two survivors, Machee barn and Malco Baron, who
Speaker 1: met and got married after the Holocaust. That was that
Speaker 1: was a transformative experience because like I said, we didn't
Speaker 1: have a we didn't have a template, we didn't have
Speaker 1: anything to go by, but we were able to really
Speaker 1: produce something strong. We hit the ground running. We talked
Speaker 1: about that a lot how it holds up even when
Speaker 1: we look at it now, like Volume one did exactly
Speaker 1: what we wanted it to do, and it also turned
Speaker 1: some people who had kind of questioned the project around
Speaker 1: and brought them to our side. Because even some of
Speaker 1: the survivors whose stories be told, we featured the stories
Speaker 1: of survivors we settled here in Pittsburgh. Their their stories
Speaker 1: really covered a breadth of experiences, you know. So we
Speaker 1: had people who had been in camps, we had people
Speaker 1: who had been partisan fighters. We had people who had
Speaker 1: been in the military, the American military and gone back.
Speaker 1: So it really covered a breadth of stories there. But
Speaker 1: some of the survivors we approached to get their permission
Speaker 1: or their families, they weren't quite as approving of the
Speaker 1: project initially because they didn't understand there was that preconception
Speaker 1: about what comics were, that they could do of them
Speaker 1: as you know, as a juvenile art form or comedic.
Speaker 1: For him and uh one of the other survivors who
Speaker 1: was profiled in that first issue. For Tottenheimer, he was
Speaker 1: one of those but when he saw the first issue.
Speaker 1: We have a lovely photo of him from when he
Speaker 1: received the first issue, almost hot off the press. UH.
Speaker 1: He was instantly a supporter after that, and he gave
Speaker 1: us a lot of the language that we have used
Speaker 1: to describe the project since. So, you know and when
Speaker 1: So when we were working on that first issue, I
Speaker 1: I had to say, I just knew I was one
Speaker 1: of the of a group of hardest working on this anthology.
Speaker 1: But I had a very strong sense of how the
Speaker 1: project was going to be evolved or needed to evolve. UH.
Speaker 1: That's part of where the hit Pou method and the
Speaker 1: Huitspal aesthetic kind of comes from. I just I could
Speaker 1: see more issues in the series, and I started breaking
Speaker 1: down what I thought those issues needed to be like
Speaker 1: with the focal focus of each issue needed to become.
Speaker 1: And it's largely so far played out very close to
Speaker 1: that are behind the scenes, things have changed a good
Speaker 1: bit both at the Holocaust Center and with the project
Speaker 1: and who's who's working on it. UH. I now formally
Speaker 1: work for the Holocaust Center, so they created a position
Speaker 1: on staff for me to become its Power Project Coordinator.
Speaker 1: So that's been a blessing all the ways around. UH.
Speaker 1: And that kind of brings us to where we're at now,
Speaker 1: where we're you know, we're producing these various issues, and
Speaker 1: we're also getting them into the hand of the people
Speaker 1: who are gonna if they're gonna they're intended for, which
Speaker 1: is educators and students, but they're also created for general audiences.
Speaker 1: So anybody who picks up a copy of any any
Speaker 1: volume of its pal should get something out of it.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you are the project coordinator on this,
Speaker 1: you're also the lead project artist, a writer, a letterer.
Speaker 1: Is it tricky to be doing the artistic part of
Speaker 1: it and then have to shift gears and do more
Speaker 1: of the administrative part of it. It can be at times,
Speaker 1: it can be, but at the same time, it affords
Speaker 1: me insight into the creative process Um when we were
Speaker 1: working on the first two issues, So uh, this is
Speaker 1: with the original editor, Zac affors Um. When that was
Speaker 1: I worked very closely with him, which is what allowed
Speaker 1: me to eventually transition into this role. He was actually
Speaker 1: an advocate for me transitioning into this role and the
Speaker 1: project wouldn't have become what it became without him. So
Speaker 1: I just gotta, you know, do him match shoutouts because
Speaker 1: he was great. But we worked so closely because because
Speaker 1: it was easy for me to kind of anticipate the
Speaker 1: needs of the writers and the hardest involved because that's
Speaker 1: what I do. And so as we've been working on
Speaker 1: the project likewise, it's been I think it's that's made
Speaker 1: it a lot easier for us to get the best
Speaker 1: work that we have out of all the creators evolved
Speaker 1: because I know, I know what it's like to have
Speaker 1: all the strictures and the things that the creators have,
Speaker 1: and you know, and I there's times I've been able
Speaker 1: to see what things can be improved, but not never
Speaker 1: in a it's always in a in a positive way
Speaker 1: and h and it's and it's worked out well, so
Speaker 1: but it can there there there are times where it's
Speaker 1: you know, I have to actively kind of all right,
Speaker 1: so I'm now in this mode, I'm now in project
Speaker 1: coordinator mode, or now I'm in a more uh creative mode.
Speaker 1: But on the whole they go hand in hand, and
Speaker 1: the staff here the Holocaust Center is super a supportive
Speaker 1: and understanding of the need for me to switch gears,
Speaker 1: which if they weren't, I wouldn't be able to do
Speaker 1: what I do right. This is obviously a really important
Speaker 1: project and it is in my mind worthy of a
Speaker 1: huge distribution platform, but it's at it's hard. It's an
Speaker 1: independent comic. I mean, I know people that make comics
Speaker 1: and work for the big companies, and they have their
Speaker 1: own challenges keeping stuff on track. And it feels like
Speaker 1: as things get smaller in terms of the production, those
Speaker 1: problems actually get bigger. So what are the challenges for
Speaker 1: you that come with being uh an independent art houses? Well,
Speaker 1: I think the same. It's they're similar to other independent comics,
Speaker 1: you know, just reaching an audience and getting getting the
Speaker 1: word out there that you exist and building on that.
Speaker 1: But you know, ours are also very there's some things
Speaker 1: that are specific to hoos Pout because we we are
Speaker 1: producing this book with dual audiences in mind, and you know,
Speaker 1: with with educators in mind. I say that because you know,
Speaker 1: when when we tell people what we do, especially working
Speaker 1: with educators, there are uh there's there's three notable texts
Speaker 1: that are used in in these kinds of studies, uh
Speaker 1: Night by Elie Wizzel, The Diary of Ann Frank and
Speaker 1: Mouse by Art Spiegelman. So those because those three come
Speaker 1: up all the time, especially that last one, because you
Speaker 1: know that being a graphic I call graphic pros work.
Speaker 1: But you know of born from the comic book arts medium,
Speaker 1: so we get compared to that a lot. So there's
Speaker 1: there's a challenge of getting this in in the hands
Speaker 1: specifically of educators, and still overcoming the hurdle of it
Speaker 1: being a comic book. I mean, that's not as much
Speaker 1: of a challenge as I think it has been in
Speaker 1: the past, but I mean it's still it does exist
Speaker 1: until people see it. I will say that anytime. As
Speaker 1: soon as people see it, they get it almost instantly.
Speaker 1: And that's true of kids adults. You know, that cuts
Speaker 1: a crop. I mean, we've we've had the fortune here
Speaker 1: two have presented the pal to so many different people
Speaker 1: from so many different backgrounds. Um, there was a wonderful
Speaker 1: experience I had that was last year with a group
Speaker 1: of middle and high school students. Had had a local
Speaker 1: local boys and girls club and these it was predominantly
Speaker 1: black youth, and you know, so I'm black, and it
Speaker 1: was important for it was important for them to see
Speaker 1: me in my role and working on this project. Uh.
Speaker 1: And at first I wasn't sure that I had connected
Speaker 1: with them, you know, just you know the part of
Speaker 1: that was us because they were teenagers and you don't
Speaker 1: always right away connected with your audience. But shortly thereafter
Speaker 1: we some of the members of our staff, we were
Speaker 1: at an event out in the world and we're walking
Speaker 1: in a large vid of those kids were there and
Speaker 1: they recognized me and they just they called out my
Speaker 1: name and descended on me. And fortunately zach I mentioned
Speaker 1: earlier he took a picture then, so I have proof
Speaker 1: of it. They were really excited to see, but it
Speaker 1: was also validation that we had connected with what we did.
Speaker 1: And then we actually brought those kids into the Holocaust
Speaker 1: Center afterwards where they got to meet and listen to
Speaker 1: one of our survivors, and I was just lovely. Um. So,
Speaker 1: I guess the bigger challenge with its pou as an
Speaker 1: independent publication, it's just make making that happen again and
Speaker 1: again and again, you know, and making that reach as
Speaker 1: broad as possible. One thing that really stands out to
Speaker 1: me looking at volumes one through three, and you sent
Speaker 1: me kindly rough of some of the stuff that's in
Speaker 1: for is how much effort you put in to accuracy
Speaker 1: in representing places and spaces where these things happened. Like
Speaker 1: I think I saw a note in some of the
Speaker 1: four that was like about making sure that the facade
Speaker 1: of a building like was was researched or something? Um,
Speaker 1: what is that process like? And how how do you
Speaker 1: get the right resources to have that information into the
Speaker 1: hands of the artists that are recreating these these worlds?
Speaker 1: And how often do you kind of have to fudge
Speaker 1: things because you don't really have the primary sources on it.
Speaker 1: Fidelity is something that from the outset, we paid a
Speaker 1: lot of attention to what this project and that's that's
Speaker 1: gonna that's ongoing. Uh. And that's true of both the
Speaker 1: written component and the visual component. UH. It varies on
Speaker 1: a case by case basis because with certain stories there's
Speaker 1: there's more reference material. UH. With others, you know, when
Speaker 1: there's less debt, we rely more on the creators involved
Speaker 1: to come up with a reasonable presentation of what would
Speaker 1: have happened. UM. Fritz Fritz Ottenheimer whom I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: he he spoke about that, like the the advantage of
Speaker 1: using the comic book medium to tell these stories, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, because you didn't have photographers or videographers of
Speaker 1: or or filmographers available everywhere to document everything. You know,
Speaker 1: it was certainly a different world than we're living in now.
Speaker 1: You know, writers and artists, for specifically comic book creators.
Speaker 1: They can use their imaginations and skill sets to fill
Speaker 1: in those gaps. So we have done that from time
Speaker 1: to time, but we usually you know, it has to
Speaker 1: be done with the right kind of sensibility to it.
Speaker 1: You know. For instance, I've there's been instances where I've
Speaker 1: had to reverse engineer what somebody may have looked like
Speaker 1: when they were young. That's tricky, um, but you know,
Speaker 1: I just so. On the cover of our first issue, uh,
Speaker 1: one of our survivors depicted Dora Alert, who was very
Speaker 1: well known in our local community. We had to do that,
Speaker 1: like I had to. I had to basically reverse engineer
Speaker 1: how I thought she would have looked as a young
Speaker 1: lady when her story took place. Uh. And I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't have much reference to go by. Most of
Speaker 1: them was her older Uh. Just a week ago I
Speaker 1: came across the photo here in our archives at the
Speaker 1: Holocrost Center. That just what It was a photo that
Speaker 1: wasn't available at the time, And I just want to
Speaker 1: kick something because oh, this would have been great to
Speaker 1: have had. But at the same time it was I
Speaker 1: I uh, oh, And there was a number of photos
Speaker 1: of our survivors when they were young that was you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's humbling to think of them because these
Speaker 1: are all real people. You know. We're not making any
Speaker 1: of this up, so that is a very and that
Speaker 1: keeps us grounded. But what I was glad about was
Speaker 1: I got pretty close. I think I got about about
Speaker 1: as close as I had have been able to, you know,
Speaker 1: like you could still tell that was her. So you know,
Speaker 1: we do the best we can. And that's why it's
Speaker 1: also a group process too. You know, all the stories
Speaker 1: have to be vetted by our team. Um, and if
Speaker 1: there's a question you know where we encourage the question
Speaker 1: to be raised, like we always want to make sure
Speaker 1: that it's as close to you know, accuracy that with
Speaker 1: the accuracy is as high as possible. Uh. You mentioned
Speaker 1: this all being part of a team, and I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: is there a quick and dirty version of like what
Speaker 1: is the actual process like from the moment where you
Speaker 1: say yes, we're featuring Freedom Bell in fonta to here's
Speaker 1: the printed comic. Is there a quick and dirty version
Speaker 1: of that? Okay, so the quick and dirty version would be, first,
Speaker 1: we select all the subjects we like to kind of
Speaker 1: know who all is going to be included in each issue,
Speaker 1: because that gives us a sense of what the balance
Speaker 1: of the you know, the content is going to be.
Speaker 1: Once we've done that, then the next part is finding
Speaker 1: the right creative team or individuals. Sometimes it's one person,
Speaker 1: sometimes it's two, sometimes it's three, but we want to
Speaker 1: you know, make sure that we have the right person
Speaker 1: working on that right story. And while we do typically
Speaker 1: like to call our talent here locally because it's just
Speaker 1: easier to work with people that you have here on hand,
Speaker 1: we reach outside of the region on a couple of occasions.
Speaker 1: But it's always about finding pairing the right talent with
Speaker 1: the right story. And sometimes even after the fact, like
Speaker 1: you have to replace people that has happened, Um, but
Speaker 1: I have found up to right now, it almost always
Speaker 1: works out the way it's supposed to work out. Uh.
Speaker 1: When the emphasis is on telling the story correctly, you
Speaker 1: end up with the people involved with the talent involved
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to have. So uh, it's really just
Speaker 1: about keeping the lines of communication open. That's the part
Speaker 1: that assures that you're gonna end up with the best product.
Speaker 1: So how much back and forth is there? So is
Speaker 1: it pretty much that the writer comes in with their script,
Speaker 1: the artist does their thing, everything gets approved, it goes
Speaker 1: to print. How many revisions do you typically do, like
Speaker 1: where in that in that line of process do things
Speaker 1: shift around? Where do they get a little amba like?
Speaker 1: It can It can vary from story to story, but
Speaker 1: typically we contact the writer's first and although ideally we
Speaker 1: like to know who the teams are going to be,
Speaker 1: but we contact the writer's first, uh, and once they've
Speaker 1: you know, they've been briefed on you know, the history
Speaker 1: and you know a lot of very often they do
Speaker 1: a lot of independent research. If there's a specific aspect
Speaker 1: of the story we'd like to focus on, we have
Speaker 1: some discussion about that. But you know, we get once
Speaker 1: we get a first draft in, you know, I review
Speaker 1: it first, in the team reviews it, We compiler notes,
Speaker 1: try to get those back to the writers and so
Speaker 1: there can be some back and forth, but usually, I
Speaker 1: mean usually we're able to get it within a couple
Speaker 1: of drafts. It's usually not a labored process because our
Speaker 1: our talent pool is really super strong. And then it's
Speaker 1: more or less the same thing with the artists. By
Speaker 1: the time the artists gets the scripts and you know
Speaker 1: they get to go ahead. It's usually a little bit
Speaker 1: I guess more straightforward with them because they've got something
Speaker 1: to actually go from. But that sense that can present
Speaker 1: its own challenges as well, Like you can read a
Speaker 1: script and kind of have the whole thing, but once
Speaker 1: you get that art back, there might be other issues
Speaker 1: that you have to hire out. But usually you're able
Speaker 1: to you know, we're able to get that taken care
Speaker 1: of within a draft or two. We always have the
Speaker 1: artists do send us the preliminary layouts because the ideas
Speaker 1: we'd want them to have to redraw as little as possible,
Speaker 1: so they'll just send us layout, pencil artwork, or if
Speaker 1: they work digitally, just their roughs uh and then you know,
Speaker 1: once we've got it clear enough where we can understand
Speaker 1: that often now we drop in well I'll drop in
Speaker 1: lettering on top of the roughs, just to see how
Speaker 1: it flows and looks and everything. Um. Once that gets approved,
Speaker 1: you know they're they're given to go ahead as well.
Speaker 1: There can be changes up to the last minute. I
Speaker 1: will say that because in the volume three we had
Speaker 1: we had some changes and usually at that point it's
Speaker 1: mostly text, but until we submitted it to the printer.
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's a process from beginning to end.
Speaker 1: But you know, at this point we do I have
Speaker 1: a method with it, so it's not too too bad. Um.
Speaker 1: I know your method has been refined as you've gone
Speaker 1: on and now, as you said, you have a pretty
Speaker 1: strong process in place. And I know you also mentioned
Speaker 1: that you have on occasion found resource images you wish
Speaker 1: you had earlier. But now that you are several years
Speaker 1: into this project and apparently looking you know, all the
Speaker 1: way to volume nine and perhaps beyond, do you wish
Speaker 1: you had done anything different earlier on? I'm going to
Speaker 1: say no, because we needed to do what we did
Speaker 1: to get to where we're at right now. And I
Speaker 1: guess there's things that could have been tweaked or or
Speaker 1: you know, people we could have approached that we didn't.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you can always kind of second
Speaker 1: guess it after the fact, but honestly, we've done far
Speaker 1: more right. Think it's pal then we've been you know,
Speaker 1: we've been misteps. We've made many missteps have been very
Speaker 1: very minor, and you know, it's it's a continually evolving project,
Speaker 1: so we get to keep refining it. It's just some
Speaker 1: We just asked me readingly, like, what's your favorite issue?
Speaker 1: And they just asked me this yesterday, and I always say,
Speaker 1: and it's the truth, it's always the issue that we're
Speaker 1: working on at that time, because it always you can
Speaker 1: tell that's going to be the best issue ever. I
Speaker 1: love that answer. I'm just over here smiling. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you can hear it. Um. One thing I
Speaker 1: also wanted to ask you is how you select your
Speaker 1: superheroes for each volume. Well, as Jackie explained, there's a
Speaker 1: theme involved with every issue, you know, and that works
Speaker 1: into are also larger programming here at the Holocaust Center.
Speaker 1: But you know, we we try to select the French
Speaker 1: Ace will use volume four as an example. We try
Speaker 1: to select stories that really cover a breadth of the
Speaker 1: subject matter. UM hotstyle stories on average about six pages long,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't give you much room to tell a
Speaker 1: person's life story or even sometimes just an instance in
Speaker 1: a person's life story. So it's all about the economy
Speaker 1: of the storytelling. So you know, we have to kind
Speaker 1: of look at whose story can we tell in this
Speaker 1: abbreviated way and still managed to convey the essence of
Speaker 1: what makes this so important, and there's there's other there's
Speaker 1: there's a number of factors that can result in why
Speaker 1: we do choose one story over another. Some can be
Speaker 1: just access to information and what we're able to verify. Um,
Speaker 1: if it's subject to people we know, like our local folks,
Speaker 1: you know, we'd like to get people's blessings where possible
Speaker 1: volume for these This is telling stories of people who
Speaker 1: are more publicly known, so we don't have that same
Speaker 1: kind of constraint, but you know, we we we look
Speaker 1: at that balance, I guess more than anything else. And
Speaker 1: you know, if there's two people who have more or
Speaker 1: less the same kind of a story, same sort of background,
Speaker 1: but one your experience is is a little stronger or
Speaker 1: it's more it's easier to capture, you know, then that
Speaker 1: becomes the story that we would probably go with. And
Speaker 1: it just has to kind of feel right. And that's
Speaker 1: an organic process, you know, but it's also it's a
Speaker 1: democratic process, you know, Like I I know, in the
Speaker 1: role that I'm in, if somebody came to me and
Speaker 1: was like they were just really strongly advocating for a
Speaker 1: particular story, you know, I would listen to that. Uh.
Speaker 1: But Jackie mentioned also like she she was ravocating for
Speaker 1: freedom story, and she couldn't have been more right about
Speaker 1: that one. So yeah, it's it's it's a process. But but
Speaker 1: but then by the time you've come down to your
Speaker 1: final selection five six people typically you know you'd like,
Speaker 1: you're able to look at it and go, yep, that's
Speaker 1: our group, that's who we need to be telling these
Speaker 1: stories about. Since this has really become a big part
Speaker 1: of your life for a while now, um, what has
Speaker 1: been the biggest surprise along the way for you personally
Speaker 1: is being part of this project. How warmly it's been received.
Speaker 1: I knew this was something that was going to be
Speaker 1: received well, but it's it's really it means, it means
Speaker 1: a lot to people. We just had a group of
Speaker 1: UH eighth graders in here yesterday and at one point
Speaker 1: I was talking to him about the project. I was
Speaker 1: talking about the first story I worked on, and the
Speaker 1: moment it hit me that, you know, these are real
Speaker 1: people's lives that we were being contrusted with depicting. And
Speaker 1: I was looking right at them, and I could see
Speaker 1: right in the middle of the group there was a
Speaker 1: group of girls and like their faces just all changed
Speaker 1: all at once, and it looked like they were going
Speaker 1: to cried. It's a little bit like but in a
Speaker 1: good way. They get it. They get this the and
Speaker 1: and the immediacy. I guess that they appreciate this project.
Speaker 1: That's what grabs me. I I was at Carlo College
Speaker 1: not long after we finished the second issue. I was
Speaker 1: invited in to talk to a group of students for
Speaker 1: their arts in the Holocaust Studies class. And they had
Speaker 1: been assigned a number of works including Mouse Uh to
Speaker 1: read and so they had read that, and they read
Speaker 1: Mouth and they told me directly how they appreciated Mouse
Speaker 1: and they liked it, but they loved huts Pal And
Speaker 1: that really bowled me over the fact that they loved
Speaker 1: Hutspal even over Mouse. And that's not to take anything
Speaker 1: away from Mouse, but I think they were just able
Speaker 1: to connect with these stories because you know, we we
Speaker 1: we render these stories in a um in a in
Speaker 1: a short fashion, which you know, you get a lot
Speaker 1: of information at a short space. But also it's a
Speaker 1: very naturalistic depiction, you know, it's not stylized. And that
Speaker 1: I think that that accounted for at least some of that.
Speaker 1: So that warm reception is the thing. I guess that
Speaker 1: that could continues. That's still surprise that surprises me but
Speaker 1: makes me very happy. Do you think about it in
Speaker 1: terms of being like your legacy in some ways? Sure? Sure,
Speaker 1: Sure if if if I got abducted by a spaceship tomorrow,
Speaker 1: which I don't want to happen, but you know, you
Speaker 1: just never know. But if it's something like if like
Speaker 1: I just were not involved with it's now it's been
Speaker 1: the best experience I could have ever asked for. And
Speaker 1: it's it's provided platforms for me to do other things.
Speaker 1: It's it's just it's wonderful. Like when I tell people
Speaker 1: where I work and what I work on, it's amazing
Speaker 1: what their reactions are even before they've seen it, just
Speaker 1: knowing what it is. It's a blessed project, so you
Speaker 1: and it's the kind of thing you don't encounter that often. Um,
Speaker 1: it's possible. I'm not gonna say this for sure, but
Speaker 1: it's possible. I might be the only like working cartoonist
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh has like a day job making comics where
Speaker 1: you know the benefits and stuff, and that's like, that's
Speaker 1: a black I could have never imagined this would have
Speaker 1: been possible. But I do want to see more of
Speaker 1: it happen, because it's the thing that also affords a
Speaker 1: lot of opportunities for a lot of other creatives here
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh. That makes me super happy being able to
Speaker 1: meet people like Bertie who just kind of came out
Speaker 1: of nowhere and and knocked it out of a park
Speaker 1: right off the bat. Where is that? Where does that
Speaker 1: happen anywhere else? You know? I guess if you if
Speaker 1: you're with a sports team or something, well, but I'm
Speaker 1: not an athlete. I'm an artist. So this is this
Speaker 1: is where I want to see it happen. That's so perfect.
Speaker 1: I want to point out for all you know that
Speaker 1: spaceship is taking you to a a tune planet. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, be open to these ideas. I used to
Speaker 1: think about that when I was a kid. There's a heaven.
Speaker 1: I still where all the comics stuff is for real, right,
Speaker 1: I feel like Bugs Bunny is there, and uh, Old
Speaker 1: School Spider Man is there for me. I understand, Um,
Speaker 1: you understand I do. Uh. What do you hope that
Speaker 1: people take away from this comic when they read it? Well?
Speaker 1: I always want to, you know, I want I want
Speaker 1: readers to always remember you and these are real people,
Speaker 1: and it's the story is gonna be really exciting and
Speaker 1: moving and and and transformative. But these are real people
Speaker 1: and that means that they are flawed, they're not perfect. Uh.
Speaker 1: And Volume two I wrote and drew the story of
Speaker 1: a Renais Sendler, who was a Polish social worker who
Speaker 1: was part of a network to help rescue approximately children
Speaker 1: from the Warsaw ghetto. And you know, in doing the
Speaker 1: research on her, she was not a perfect person by
Speaker 1: any means, but she was a very strong person. And
Speaker 1: there's certain colors I have with Arena and Frieda in
Speaker 1: that the fiber of their character and the way they
Speaker 1: were able to do what they did, and you know,
Speaker 1: and and both of them, I feel like they did
Speaker 1: the perfect thing. Like their lives are representative of the
Speaker 1: perfect response to what the Holocaust was is they both
Speaker 1: live really really long, productive lives and you know, so
Speaker 1: I that's the kind of thing that I hope readers
Speaker 1: take away from um these these other messages and now
Speaker 1: you know, fortitude and longevity, you know, that's what wins
Speaker 1: out in the end. Our deepest thanks to Bertie, Jackie
Speaker 1: and ourself for spending time talking with me and to
Speaker 1: the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh for even launching this amazing project.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited that they're looking for ways that they
Speaker 1: can help other communities develop similar projects. And we will
Speaker 1: link to the Holocaust Center of Pittsburgh's website so you
Speaker 1: can get all the information on Hutzpau, including how to order. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they'll have lots of lots of fun links on the
Speaker 1: show page for this day, so we hope that you
Speaker 1: will check those out. Uh. Since this has been a
Speaker 1: lengthier episode, I was going to do kind of a
Speaker 1: shorter listener mail, but it's really fantastic. It is from
Speaker 1: our listener, Emmy, and she writes, Hey, Halley and Tracy,
Speaker 1: I am a huge fan of the podcast and I'm
Speaker 1: a history major in college. Bravo, Emmy. When listening to
Speaker 1: your Maria tal Chief episode, you mentioned her last husband,
Speaker 1: Henry Buzz Passion Junior from Chicago, and that name sounded familiar.
Speaker 1: Henry is a family name, and Passion was my mom's
Speaker 1: last name. So I asked my mom and she confirmed
Speaker 1: that Maria tal Chief was my third cousin's wife. That's
Speaker 1: a grandpa's cousin's wife. I'm doing a family history paper
Speaker 1: on my mom's side for one of my history classes,
Speaker 1: and I'm totally going to use you guys as a source.
Speaker 1: I was unknowingly doing research while listening to your podcast,
Speaker 1: which I thought was hilarious. Uh, she has You all
Speaker 1: are amazing and I can't wait to keep listening. Emmy,
Speaker 1: that's so cool. She also wrote a ps that her
Speaker 1: mom met Maria and said that she was very nice.
Speaker 1: Doesn't surprise me, um. That is such a fabulous and
Speaker 1: cool connection to history. We always talk about how what
Speaker 1: keeps us passionate about talking about history is that it
Speaker 1: is a living thing and we are connected to it
Speaker 1: in ways we don't always realize, and this is a
Speaker 1: very direct connection. So thank you so much for sharing
Speaker 1: that with us, Emmy. If you would like to share
Speaker 1: your connections to history with us, you can do that
Speaker 1: at History Podcast at I heart radio dot com. That
Speaker 1: is a new address, so keep in mind. You can
Speaker 1: also find us everywhere on social media at missed in
Speaker 1: History and missed in History dot com is also our website.
Speaker 1: If you would like to subscribe, that sounds like a
Speaker 1: fantastic idea. You can do that on the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or wherever it is you listen.
Speaker 1: Stuffy Missed in History Class is a production of I
Speaker 1: heart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.