Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stuff.
Speaker 1: I've never told your protection of I Heart Radio as
Speaker 1: how stuff works. But today we're actually tackling something that
Speaker 1: I tried to do a year ago. I always started
Speaker 1: working on this outline a year ago and was so
Speaker 1: confused and torn about um, a lot of things that
Speaker 1: were happening in my life and uh, this whole idea
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about today, forgiveness. Right, So it's
Speaker 1: been sitting in our folder for over a year. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been there since I've even started. Yeah, I would
Speaker 1: like start on it and then get frustrated and go
Speaker 1: away from it. But it has been on my mind
Speaker 1: a lot lately, and we did want to talk about
Speaker 1: forgiveness today, especially since we're in this holiday season, as
Speaker 1: we recorded, and supposed to be purportedly a time of gifness. Oh,
Speaker 1: I thought, that's just when you tell people things, you know,
Speaker 1: like the love actually bit, Oh God, don't talk to
Speaker 1: me about love. Actually, I really don't know that much
Speaker 1: about them actually, other than Alan Rickman was a cheater
Speaker 1: to confess whatever the truth are, and you know you're
Speaker 1: supposed to be honest. Okay, that's where the whole like
Speaker 1: signage sign be like, hey, I know you're married to
Speaker 1: my best friend, but hey, I love you. We talked
Speaker 1: about that forever ago and we actually got all our response.
Speaker 1: People have strong opinions about that movie. They do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like it. Apparently a lot of people do like it. No,
Speaker 1: you know, as long as you can recognize some problematic
Speaker 1: things that that's fine. Yeah. True later episode, but for
Speaker 1: this one trigger warning before we get started, for brief
Speaker 1: mentions of rape and sexual assault and domestic violence, but
Speaker 1: very brief. We're just going to talk about how that
Speaker 1: can play into forgiveness. And I'm someone who I've discovered
Speaker 1: is terrible at forgiveness. Um. I have a huge tolerance.
Speaker 1: You can do a lot of things before I say,
Speaker 1: you know what, You've done enough, and then I like
Speaker 1: wipe my hands of you. I cannot forgive you. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I have never actually been to the point
Speaker 1: of granting forgiveness. UM. And I am at the point
Speaker 1: now where I do want to. I'm in the stage
Speaker 1: that I want to, but I have an emotional block
Speaker 1: around it. Like even if mentally I think you know what, okay,
Speaker 1: I want to move on, there's something that I can't
Speaker 1: go up emotionally, so that's kind of where I am. UM.
Speaker 1: And a year ago, I was running on the beltline,
Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite things, and the song
Speaker 1: It's quite Uptown from Hamilton's came on. If you've never
Speaker 1: heard that song, Um, it's about Hamilton's and his wife Eliza,
Speaker 1: UM and the idea of forgiveness because he cheated on her.
Speaker 1: And I know a lot of people are going to
Speaker 1: write in that we didn't mention that in our political
Speaker 1: scandal episode. It's been talked about a lot. But if
Speaker 1: you guys want us to talk about it, I happily,
Speaker 1: happily will. I love Hamilton's. But anyway, UM, I've heard
Speaker 1: that song hundreds of time, probably not even exaggeration a
Speaker 1: hundred times, but that time something about it stopped me
Speaker 1: in my tracks and I started crying, um because of
Speaker 1: this idea of forgiveness and the power of it, and
Speaker 1: something just clicked UM. And it's ever since then, it's
Speaker 1: just kind of been in the back of my brain.
Speaker 1: And I do want to say before we get into this,
Speaker 1: forgiveness is deeply, deeply, deeply personal. We are not in
Speaker 1: the business of telling anyone that they should forgive someone
Speaker 1: and no one else should be either. Um. There's a
Speaker 1: long history of women being gaslighted to forgive um, or
Speaker 1: that concept of forgiveness being weaponized against women, and we
Speaker 1: aren't we are going to touch on that, but I
Speaker 1: just want to say I think forgiveness has gotten wrapped
Speaker 1: up in it's a good thing to do, and therefore
Speaker 1: you should do it. There are benefits to it, but
Speaker 1: you really don't have to if you don't want to,
Speaker 1: and in fact, doing so can be detrimental. All right,
Speaker 1: So let's start with some basics from the Greater Good magazine.
Speaker 1: Psychologists generally defined forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to
Speaker 1: release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or
Speaker 1: group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually
Speaker 1: deserve your forgiveness. And that's key because I used to
Speaker 1: get myself in an unhealthy logic trap of deserve whether
Speaker 1: or not the person deserved it. But it's not about them, um,
Speaker 1: and what they do or do not deserve. It is
Speaker 1: about you and what you want, which is actually a
Speaker 1: great segue into what forgiveness isn't. It does not mean
Speaker 1: forgetting or minimizing or excusing or condoning. It does not
Speaker 1: mean reconciliation or accepting continued wrongdoing, and it doesn't free
Speaker 1: the other party from being accountable to the law. It
Speaker 1: is about letting go of negative emotions that the forgiver
Speaker 1: wants to let go self. Forgiveness can also be extremely liberating,
Speaker 1: extremely yeah, and confusing. Forgiveness and reconciliation is common and inaccurate.
Speaker 1: Waiting for someone else to reconcile is disempowering, and some
Speaker 1: things can't be paid back, it cannot be reconciled. Equating
Speaker 1: forgiveness with reconciliation with trap someone in that situation and
Speaker 1: a disruptive state of unforgiveness. Forgiveness is also not the
Speaker 1: only path to closure. I'm moving on. Forgiving when you're
Speaker 1: not ready is really detrimental, and forgiveness is generally understood
Speaker 1: to hinge on two pieces of information, relationship value of
Speaker 1: the wrongdoer and probability of future wrongdoings. And our culture
Speaker 1: seems to be completely torn when it comes to you forgiveness.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen it as being foolish or weak submissive.
Speaker 1: I've seen it on the opposite end, being called something
Speaker 1: like your duty. It's wrapped up in religion and philosophy,
Speaker 1: in some cases, in relationships and politics. At times that
Speaker 1: we may feels sure from other people to forgive because
Speaker 1: it's the right thing to do, in quotes that it
Speaker 1: would doing so would make you a good person. And
Speaker 1: at the same time, we have so many sayings about
Speaker 1: forgiveness to airs to be human, to forgive is divine,
Speaker 1: To understand all is to forgive all. Um. It just
Speaker 1: seems we're all very conflicted about this idea of forgiveness.
Speaker 1: A study conducted by psychologists Charlotte ben Oyan vit Valt
Speaker 1: found that asking participants to remember an instance when someone
Speaker 1: had offended, hurt, or mistreated them resulted in a whole
Speaker 1: range of physical responses from increased heart rate, blood pressure,
Speaker 1: muscle tension, and sweating. People described the experience as unpleasant.
Speaker 1: It made them angry, It made them sad, It made
Speaker 1: them feel like they had less control. When they were
Speaker 1: asked to imagine forgiving their offender, these physical responses relaxed.
Speaker 1: A survey of fift Americans about how much they practiced
Speaker 1: forgiveness revealed that middle aged and older people forgave at
Speaker 1: higher rates when compared to their younger counterparts, and the
Speaker 1: researchers found a relationship between forgiveness and increased mental health
Speaker 1: and older respondence. So grudges have been linked with increased
Speaker 1: risk of cardiovascular disease and in various ways can compromise
Speaker 1: our immune systems. Grudges can impact future relationships and diminish
Speaker 1: ability to enjoy the present. Forgiveness is important in terms
Speaker 1: of emotional and disengaging from trauma. Forgiving is often emotional
Speaker 1: and painful. A twenty sixteen study divided a group of
Speaker 1: one five students who had recently experienced bullying into three
Speaker 1: scenario groups, forgiveness, revenge, and avoidance. The researchers found that
Speaker 1: both the forgiveness and avoidance groups didn't feel stronger, but
Speaker 1: they did experience a decrease in negative emotions during the
Speaker 1: course of the experiment. The revenge group felt a decrease
Speaker 1: and empowerment, ability to cope, and self esteem. However, the
Speaker 1: forgiveness group experienced the most stress us. This seems to
Speaker 1: demonstrate just how difficult and stressful that the act of
Speaker 1: forgiveness is, and that healing takes time. Forgiveness maybe better
Speaker 1: in the long run, but in the short term it's
Speaker 1: more painful than avoidance or revenge. The researchers suggested that
Speaker 1: perhaps a mixed approach is best avoidance until long enough
Speaker 1: time is passed. Distances passed, then should you so desire
Speaker 1: forgiveness that smart? Another study found that in the context
Speaker 1: of relationships, people who are more likely to pursue revenge
Speaker 1: instead of forgiveness were more likely to go through negative
Speaker 1: consequences and conflict. Ultimately, the takeaway was it's really beneficial
Speaker 1: to have tools and strategies ready to deal with the
Speaker 1: rough times. One of these things can be forgiveness. And
Speaker 1: analysis of seventeen studies around relationships and forgiveness found that
Speaker 1: after the betrayal of a partner, the relationship goes often change,
Speaker 1: becoming more about evening the score, winning arguments, and other
Speaker 1: competitive things like that. So forgiveness is suggested as a
Speaker 1: way to return to more balanced relationship. Yeah, and again,
Speaker 1: we're not telling anybody's forgive if they don't want it to,
Speaker 1: and of course people are complicated. Some researchers suggest people
Speaker 1: that are generally happier um can more easily forgive and
Speaker 1: report higher levels of happiness. When people are feeling better
Speaker 1: about their transgressor like after an apology or some type
Speaker 1: of um physical restitution, they usually experience a decrease in
Speaker 1: physical arousal meaning like symptoms um high blood pressure and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, which makes them more likely to forgive. However,
Speaker 1: we know abusers use this to continue cycles of abuse,
Speaker 1: so so something to keep an eye on. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: definitely a manipulative tactic. Other studies have found decreased stress
Speaker 1: levels and positive health benefits just when adopting a forgiving attitude.
Speaker 1: Since stress has a cumulative effect, these benefits were more
Speaker 1: pronounced in older folks. Some studies suggest that the part
Speaker 1: of the brain associated with forgiveness is the limbic system,
Speaker 1: not the part of the brain associated with reasoned judgment
Speaker 1: as previously thought. The act of forgiveness has long been
Speaker 1: thought to be an emotional one, and it is, but
Speaker 1: recent studies indicate it is a cognitive one as well. Therefore,
Speaker 1: experts recommend cognitive reframing if you're looking to forgive. Evolutionarily,
Speaker 1: revenge is easier than forgiveness. The easiest way to deal
Speaker 1: with someone who would harm you is to avoid them
Speaker 1: or to hit back. According to psychologist, revenge is unique
Speaker 1: and that it is motivated by hate, which makes it
Speaker 1: different than anger and the belief that just by existing
Speaker 1: someone is doing you harm. Revenge is often disproportionate to
Speaker 1: the original act that inspired the revenge. I know. I
Speaker 1: was about to say I had to write a paper
Speaker 1: on this in French um in college about how why
Speaker 1: is it Most of our action movies start with the
Speaker 1: main character's wife getting murdered and then he kills everyone everywhere,
Speaker 1: and it's like so violent and over the top. I
Speaker 1: was about to talk about never mind because it's too many,
Speaker 1: because I was like, I was thinking about the Joker, Um,
Speaker 1: But I don't want to say anything that could be
Speaker 1: a spoiler for those who haven't seen it or wanted
Speaker 1: to see it. All of that. But yeah, kind of.
Speaker 1: I think everybody knows that there's always a backstory, there's
Speaker 1: all and the creation of Batman alone, we know that backstory.
Speaker 1: His revenge is. I have to say, Um, I get
Speaker 1: the appeal of revenge stories, but they do make me
Speaker 1: kind of uncomfortable. It's like it's something about them as
Speaker 1: always sort of unsettled me. They're dark. I guess they're
Speaker 1: very dark for sure. For sure. Um, so let's talk
Speaker 1: about the how to for this right. Psychologist Robert in
Speaker 1: Right proposed that forgiveness has four steps, recognizing the anger,
Speaker 1: deciding to forgive, building up compassion for the wrong doer,
Speaker 1: and then letting go of negative emotions. Being specific really helped.
Speaker 1: You can only really forgive for what people have done
Speaker 1: to you. Yeah, and reading that was helpful for me
Speaker 1: because the example they gave is if you were as
Speaker 1: a child you witnessed your say father or abuse your mother,
Speaker 1: you can't forgive him for doing that. You can forgive
Speaker 1: him for the pain and fear and just hurt that
Speaker 1: he caused you. But it has to be specific to
Speaker 1: what happened to you. If you are the abused, you
Speaker 1: are the want to forgive. Right. It's a bit different
Speaker 1: when it comes to forgiving yourself self forgiveness. Accepting responsibility
Speaker 1: is important, but holding onto shame and guilt for too
Speaker 1: long isn't helpful. The first step is similar, recognizing that
Speaker 1: you're in the wrong and your actions caused pain. Then
Speaker 1: you dig a bit deeper, identifying why it happened and
Speaker 1: what was in your control and what wasn't in your control.
Speaker 1: Pinpoint lessons you learned and how you can avoid a
Speaker 1: similar situation in the future. When you've taken these steps
Speaker 1: forgive yourself, allowed or on paper, then if another party
Speaker 1: is involved, apologize. We're gonna get more into apology later, um,
Speaker 1: but you apologize genuinely and not afecting anything from the
Speaker 1: other person. Um, and then take steps to make things right.
Speaker 1: If you're looking to forgive but struggling, there are support
Speaker 1: groups and counseling out there that can help. Some other
Speaker 1: tips are practicing empathy, reflecting on times you've heard others
Speaker 1: and um, what was going on in your head when
Speaker 1: you did right, and your journal if you have a journal.
Speaker 1: If you don't, I recommend getting one UM or meditation. Also,
Speaker 1: if you can't forgive UM patients, be patient. It is
Speaker 1: hard and it takes time. Yeah. And again we're not
Speaker 1: saying that you have to know this is completely based
Speaker 1: on you. And also if, and this is a big
Speaker 1: if the wrong doer shows no signs of changing, it
Speaker 1: is toxic. It is an unhealthy relationship and it will
Speaker 1: always be unhealthy. Right. Um. Yeah, distance from someone like that.
Speaker 1: You can still forgive if you would like to write,
Speaker 1: but distance is key. That person won't keep hurting you
Speaker 1: because you forgiving doesn't mean you have to repeat the
Speaker 1: harm that's happening to you. Yes, exactly, UM. And we
Speaker 1: did want to specifically at um some some studies around
Speaker 1: women and forgiveness. But first we have a quick break
Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor and we're back, Thank
Speaker 1: you sponsor. Okay. So, there actually have been a lot
Speaker 1: of studies looking into this. UM. One of them is
Speaker 1: from It's a study from the University of the Basque
Speaker 1: Country and it looked into gender differences and forgiveness and
Speaker 1: the study found that women are better at forgiving UM.
Speaker 1: The study authors suspect that women are more empathetic than men.
Speaker 1: That was one of the reasons they gave, which is
Speaker 1: key when it comes to forgiveness. Women, especially older women,
Speaker 1: seem to reap more of the benefits of forgiveness as well.
Speaker 1: Even women who reported feeling that they themselves were unforgiven,
Speaker 1: they also felt those benefits. I think holding onto things
Speaker 1: is just tiring. That's what I've learned as I'm getting older,
Speaker 1: and I'm just tired of being angry at you. Um.
Speaker 1: So one study showed that forgiveness can make men feel weak,
Speaker 1: and that more forgiving men suffer from higher levels of
Speaker 1: depression as compared to less forgiving men self. Forgiving men
Speaker 1: fare better, but forgiving others didn't show the same positive link.
Speaker 1: The scientists behind the study believe that because forgiveness is
Speaker 1: seen as a more feminine thing, it is painted as
Speaker 1: weak and in general, for a variety of reasons, men
Speaker 1: are less forgiving than women when it comes to sexual
Speaker 1: abuse against women. There are a lot of misconceptions that
Speaker 1: to forgive means that you don't report sexual assault, or
Speaker 1: that if you do, you haven't forgiven the person, or
Speaker 1: that forgiving someone means that you're totally cool with them.
Speaker 1: None of these things are true, and pressing women to
Speaker 1: forgiven abuser who is unrepetant and still in their lives
Speaker 1: is dangerous. Sharon Lamb's essay Women Abuse and Forgiveness a
Speaker 1: Special Case argues that women are a special class of
Speaker 1: victims and possible forgivers, and that women quote may have
Speaker 1: some particular reasons not to forgive, and she goes on
Speaker 1: to ask why is it that we have so much
Speaker 1: trouble with the woman who will not forgive? Janice Hawkins
Speaker 1: essay The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly Psychoanalytic and
Speaker 1: cultural perspectives on Forgiveness also digs into the feminism of
Speaker 1: forgiveness and goes out of her way to make the
Speaker 1: point that forgiveness is neither good or bad. She writes,
Speaker 1: as oppressed groups gain the strength to speak up and
Speaker 1: claim new rights, including their right to disengage from abusive relationships,
Speaker 1: the powerful rediscover the salutary virtue of forgiveness. Basically, forgiveness
Speaker 1: benefits them for hurting other people. Um and this brings
Speaker 1: us to gas lighting. Women are frequently made to feel
Speaker 1: guilty if they don't forgive. Scorned, bitter cold. These are
Speaker 1: ways to stigmatize unforgiving women and pressure them to forgive.
Speaker 1: It's another way of dismissing women as emotional and invalidating
Speaker 1: their probably completely legitimate reactions. It flips the story so
Speaker 1: that the woman is to blame. She's just bitter, overreacting, irrational,
Speaker 1: sensitive drama queen petty. It is on her um. Any
Speaker 1: negative emotions she's experiencing are her fault. She should be
Speaker 1: the better person and forgive again. Forgiving or not forgiving.
Speaker 1: It's the choice, very personal one. Yeah, so we've seen
Speaker 1: examples with the Kavanaugh case in itself that like it's
Speaker 1: so long ago. He was just a kid. Can't you
Speaker 1: let that go? You're just being petty. It's so absurd
Speaker 1: that they're that more likely to call her names rather
Speaker 1: than keep accountability for those who were responsible for the action. Yeah, totally. UM.
Speaker 1: When Selma Hiak wrote UM in The New York Times
Speaker 1: about her reasons for not speaking up about Harvey Weinstein's
Speaker 1: sexual harassment, one of the reasons she gave was that
Speaker 1: she was proud of her capacity for forgiveness, and and
Speaker 1: this essay was when she was sort of being like,
Speaker 1: this is why I didn't do it, and I know
Speaker 1: that easier I should have. I not should have, But
Speaker 1: it was her looking back on why she didn't, and
Speaker 1: that makes perfect sense. So some arguments put forth that
Speaker 1: for some women trying to distance themselves from the angry
Speaker 1: feminist stereo type, they might be more forgiving, which you know,
Speaker 1: that's always a really bad negative. A similar argument can
Speaker 1: has been made that black people are asked and expected
Speaker 1: to forgive white racist without ever getting so much as
Speaker 1: an apology or even recognition, which we can talk about
Speaker 1: with UM. The slavery and just people doing like why
Speaker 1: are you keep bringing that up? And it's like, what
Speaker 1: the hell, y'all, really why because it's important and we
Speaker 1: need to acknowledge the trauma that it has caused and
Speaker 1: it still continues to cause. So let's talk about religion,
Speaker 1: because I think that's one of the big things where
Speaker 1: we talk about forgiveness. There's sixty two passages in the
Speaker 1: Bible that include the word forgive, and then there's twenty
Speaker 1: seven passages that contain the word forgiveness. That is a lot.
Speaker 1: Some religions do connect forgiveness with being a good person,
Speaker 1: especially for women. There have been multiple instances of numerous
Speaker 1: women reporting sexual abuse by church leaders to other church
Speaker 1: leaders and being told they must forgive to get into heaven,
Speaker 1: and by forgive they meant don't tell anybody. Right, in
Speaker 1: some interpretations of Christianity, people can't forgive it all. Only
Speaker 1: God can forgive um. So there's a lot going on there.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of pressures here around this idea
Speaker 1: of forgiveness. I don't think it's just an old idea
Speaker 1: in itself, forgiveness and what it's supposed to do, and
Speaker 1: it is kind of absolving people who have committed since essentially,
Speaker 1: and I think it is a good balance to understand
Speaker 1: what is right for you. Yes, yes, um, And we
Speaker 1: do have a little bit more about that, but first
Speaker 1: we have one more quick break for word from our
Speaker 1: sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So I guess
Speaker 1: one of the biggest takeaways for me is that I
Speaker 1: am going to reframe how I think about forgiveness. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna make it all about me, um, because in this
Speaker 1: case I am the wrong um and UM, I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna think of it almost like it has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with the other person. UM. If you are the
Speaker 1: ones seeking forgiveness um, which can mean just apologizing and
Speaker 1: leaving the other person to hell, that will make it
Speaker 1: all about them. Um. And yeah. A few situations are
Speaker 1: so black and white, it's been for me. Everybody has
Speaker 1: such a specific story and it's complex in its own way. UM.
Speaker 1: So it's hard to give really good specific advice. But
Speaker 1: here are some general ideas that might help, and a
Speaker 1: quick note about how to apologize. UM. A good apology
Speaker 1: can open up a dialogue and is the beginnings of
Speaker 1: re establishing trust. Or it can be it entails um
Speaker 1: that you show remorse, you acknowledge that you caused hurt.
Speaker 1: It has to be sincere and not flip it around
Speaker 1: to make it the other person's fault, like it was
Speaker 1: just a joke. I'm sorry you felt hurt. Um. I
Speaker 1: think that's probably one of the biggest sins when it
Speaker 1: comes to apologies is that you make excuses. And I've
Speaker 1: done it too. Um. You make excuses for your behavior
Speaker 1: and make it like the other person was overreacting. So
Speaker 1: if you're apologizing with a but yes, don't do that,
Speaker 1: or if you apologizing i'm sorry you write the youth statements,
Speaker 1: go ahead stop. Yeah, yeah, it's better. A short apology
Speaker 1: is better than any kind of long winded here's my excuse. Um.
Speaker 1: A good apology also involves making amends, providing something actionable
Speaker 1: to show your serious um, putting yourself in the other
Speaker 1: person's shoes, and honestly trying to understand why they were hurt. Um.
Speaker 1: Then offer steps to make sure that whatever it was
Speaker 1: doesn't happen again. Um. Yes, don't do not make it
Speaker 1: about you. Apologies also got to be said, are sometimes
Speaker 1: hurtful and unwelcome, So if you're doing it to make
Speaker 1: yourself feel better, that is not a good apology. And
Speaker 1: also remember impact matters more than intention. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people get caught in that that trap as well. UM,
Speaker 1: and I can and have written a paper on this,
Speaker 1: my infamous essay about doing the dishes. It was about
Speaker 1: a lot more than that, but I used the dishes
Speaker 1: as a case study. I really don't like doing dishes.
Speaker 1: I really really don't. UM. And then I've I've kind
Speaker 1: of noticed in my life I feel like some people
Speaker 1: blame me for things, and I'm not sure what they are. UM.
Speaker 1: So it's hard to apologize her. I'm not even sure
Speaker 1: that I need to apologize. But this is a time
Speaker 1: when I need to remember all of the episodes where
Speaker 1: we have sung the praises of communication. Yes, always talk
Speaker 1: to each other. When one of Bill Cosby's alleged victims
Speaker 1: was asked by Anderson Cooper, can you forget something like this?
Speaker 1: Her response was, I forgave Bill cost but years ago.
Speaker 1: For me, when you hold onto resentment for someone like that,
Speaker 1: it's not hurting them, it's only hurting you. And I
Speaker 1: think that's very valid Um for all of us. I
Speaker 1: think I felt the same way, and I'm sure you
Speaker 1: have to when you have been a victim from someone
Speaker 1: that you may never see again, that you have to
Speaker 1: forgive maybe not even just forgive, but let it go
Speaker 1: and that's the best you can do for yourself. Um.
Speaker 1: I think that's recently. It came up in one of
Speaker 1: my therapy sessions lately, and she said there's a quote like,
Speaker 1: not forgiving it is like drinking poison, inspecting the other
Speaker 1: person to die, or not not forgiving, but not letting
Speaker 1: go because yeah, they probably in some cases at least
Speaker 1: they don't care. It's not anything to them. It is difficult,
Speaker 1: though it's easier said than we understand that. And I
Speaker 1: still have questions around forgiveness. UM. I got caught up
Speaker 1: in this whole idea of some things may just truly
Speaker 1: be unforgivable. Um. But I do think I want to forgive.
Speaker 1: I think I'm in that stage. But before that I can,
Speaker 1: I have to deal with a lot of the fallout
Speaker 1: that I've been avoiding for so long. I think that's
Speaker 1: the emotional block, is that I've just been avoiding. Um.
Speaker 1: And apparently this is an idea that's been on my
Speaker 1: brain for a very long time because one of my
Speaker 1: favorite things I've written, the D and D character that
Speaker 1: I played to finish out the end of the story.
Speaker 1: I like that you were just having like figure rings
Speaker 1: on across our Death Season miniature many of her UM.
Speaker 1: It's all about UM forgiveness or not forgiving, and revenge
Speaker 1: and redemption, and it's interesting to see how it's evolved
Speaker 1: as I've continued to write it. UM. But that is
Speaker 1: about what we have to say on forgiveness today. We
Speaker 1: would love to hear from listeners any wisdom's truths or
Speaker 1: just stories they have about forgiveness or not forgiveness UM.
Speaker 1: And we have heard from some listeners already that we
Speaker 1: would like to read here now. Marie wrote, I was
Speaker 1: super excited when I saw you were doing spooky episodes
Speaker 1: for October, especially the Female Monsters episode. I just want
Speaker 1: to tell you about one of my favorite books, which
Speaker 1: not only features a badass monster eating primordial goddess who
Speaker 1: very often refers to herself as a monster as a protagonist,
Speaker 1: but she's also got a female romantic interest. The book
Speaker 1: is called The One Who Eats Monsters by Casey Matthews,
Speaker 1: and it's incredible book. As a recently out lesbian, I've
Speaker 1: been trying to consume as much lgbt Q plus fiction
Speaker 1: as possible, mostly sci fi fantasy literature. Involving lesbians. I've
Speaker 1: had to score are the internet and bookstores to get
Speaker 1: my fixed, and I've noticed that there's definitely been an
Speaker 1: increase in the amount of representation and fiction, especially among protagonists. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I just want to tell you all about my favorite book.
Speaker 1: I'd love it if you did an episode on queer
Speaker 1: literature or badass lesbians in literature. We would love that too.
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons I wanted to read this
Speaker 1: is listeners. If you've got some examples, send them our away.
Speaker 1: I definitely have some I could contribute as well. And
Speaker 1: then we have a letter from Marissa, my friend Marissa'll
Speaker 1: look at out you like that, but she wrote this
Speaker 1: um and I responded like I do to any listener,
Speaker 1: as if I didn't know her. So I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed that, Mirissa. She wrote, I have to throw my
Speaker 1: two cents in on my experience with the opioid crisis. First,
Speaker 1: my background is a traveling ear nurse. At this point
Speaker 1: in my career, I've worked in six different states Georgia, Massa, Tustats, California,
Speaker 1: I'll ask the Colorado and Maine. As a medical professional
Speaker 1: and the trenches of this opioid epidemic. I can assure
Speaker 1: you this is truly a problem everywhere. However, there is
Speaker 1: one e ER assignment that stands out. This community was
Speaker 1: being devastated by heroin. Every night. We had at least
Speaker 1: a handful of O d s overdoses. This was a
Speaker 1: big seventy five bed e er. Narcan had to be
Speaker 1: so readily available that there were internasal narcan rapid response
Speaker 1: boxes installed on the walls and strategic locations all around
Speaker 1: the e R. For instance, they had a box and
Speaker 1: triage due to so many people being dropped off in
Speaker 1: front with O d s not breathing. All of the police,
Speaker 1: firefighters and e m s carried narcan and knew how
Speaker 1: to use it. I would like to share a little
Speaker 1: narcan knowledge with you. First, you must know what a
Speaker 1: drug half life is, the time it takes the drug
Speaker 1: concentration to reach less than the starting dose in the body.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too technical, but essentially heroin
Speaker 1: works longer than the antidote Narcan nalaczone. Narcan brings them
Speaker 1: out of their high fasts and many times these slumped
Speaker 1: over lifeless O d s would reanimate rather violently and combatively.
Speaker 1: It's hard to rationalize with an addict who's come violently
Speaker 1: out of their high to stay there recommended four hours
Speaker 1: after narcan. So essentially, I'm rying to let anyone out
Speaker 1: there that has to administered narcan no to keep watching
Speaker 1: your friend or loved one. The half life of narcan
Speaker 1: is shorter than that of heroin, so essentially you can
Speaker 1: be revived from the brink of an O D death,
Speaker 1: But if you leave too soon or not watch can
Speaker 1: get into the same situation again. The drug wave could
Speaker 1: still crash over you and take you under, So continue
Speaker 1: to watch someone for several hours after administering nar can. Also,
Speaker 1: Narcan Nalockstone emergency kits are available at almost every pharmacy
Speaker 1: without a prescription. If you're using, please have the safety
Speaker 1: plan in place. Go to your nearest pharmacy and get
Speaker 1: an emergency kit. Make sure those around you while you're
Speaker 1: using no where the narcan is and how to use it.
Speaker 1: Call nine one one if the person is not breathing.
Speaker 1: Those that have allergy reactions carry eppens epinephrin. If you're using,
Speaker 1: you should carry narcan. Safe practice is all I want
Speaker 1: to preach. Keep everything clean and have a safety plan.
Speaker 1: Enough people have died this epidemic. It is just joining families.
Speaker 1: Please don't let it take your life. Wow, that's a
Speaker 1: lot of good information that Yeah, I didn't know that either,
Speaker 1: So thanks um Merissa for sharing fighting, Yeah, the good
Speaker 1: fight as a nurse. Thank you so much for what
Speaker 1: you're doing. Yeah, Um, and thanks for writing in, taking
Speaker 1: the time and sharing that knowledge. And we would love
Speaker 1: to hear from other listeners. Thanks to these too for
Speaker 1: writing in. If you would like to write to us,
Speaker 1: you can our email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at
Speaker 1: i heeart media dot com. You can also find us
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram at
Speaker 1: stuff One never told You. Thanks as always to our
Speaker 1: superproducer Andrew Howard. Yeah, and thanks to you for listening.
Speaker 1: Steph owner told you the protection of I Heart Radios
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