Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffman.
Speaker 1: Never told your protection of I Heart Radio's house stuff works.
Speaker 1: It's time for another feminist movie Friday. We're gonna make
Speaker 1: this I think so. Wait, this is because it's coming
Speaker 1: out on Friday night, that we're watching it on Friday.
Speaker 1: It's however it fits into the lives of whoever is listening. Yes,
Speaker 1: it should accomplish on Fridays. But if you don't watch
Speaker 1: it on a Friday, that's totally cool. If you don't
Speaker 1: watch it, ever, I thought, I'm totally cool listen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well no, no, I don't want to movie. Okay, Well yeah, see,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things you could make this work on. However,
Speaker 1: use about you know what sences we're supposed to be
Speaker 1: using right now? That seems to be a general confusion
Speaker 1: we have has been general confused. Um, so I got
Speaker 1: to choose the last movie for feminist movie Friday, and
Speaker 1: so this one it was more of a Samantha choice.
Speaker 1: I thought it was a team effort because we were
Speaker 1: both trying to figure out what movie is Holiday, but
Speaker 1: without being to holiday, right, because, like we talked about
Speaker 1: in our emotional labor holiday aged episode. Samantha's not a
Speaker 1: big holiday fan. And um, back when I was sort
Speaker 1: of semi host less, I did a holiday movie overview
Speaker 1: with my friend Katie. It was mostly Hallmark movies. Hi Katie,
Speaker 1: she's an expert in those, um, but we thought we'd
Speaker 1: tackle some lesser discussed holiday movies today so that you
Speaker 1: this is more than one film, right, But to be fair, yes,
Speaker 1: the movie that I chose, it's very much like even
Speaker 1: though they might not be seeing holiday carols, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of holiday decorations in the entire movie. Yes, And
Speaker 1: so we've built it up here we go, Oh, we're
Speaker 1: talking about Batman returns. Yeah, with a little bit of
Speaker 1: Iron Man three a little bit and a little bit
Speaker 1: of Spider Man into the spiderse a little um. I
Speaker 1: would like to say, though, we will be coming back
Speaker 1: to the craft and the many suggestions you guys had,
Speaker 1: who decided to go ahead and start our holiday addition
Speaker 1: with a little bit of feminist turn again. I don't
Speaker 1: like holidays, Um, Hello, I kind of enjoy some holiday movies.
Speaker 1: I already said that I like Love actually and that
Speaker 1: is an absolute holiday movie. But that was just two
Speaker 1: on the nose for Yeah, well, and a lot of
Speaker 1: them as we discussed I think in the past past episode. UM,
Speaker 1: hard to have much feminist discussion in them unless we're
Speaker 1: just like, well, this is all a problem here. Um.
Speaker 1: And surprisingly Batman returns, there's a lot to be said, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're surprised. And somehow we wedged a viewing in for
Speaker 1: both Batman returns and Spider Man in to the Spider
Speaker 1: Verse on Sunday. Oh my goodness, Oh my goodness. And
Speaker 1: then we had like Harry Potter in there, so it
Speaker 1: was all night. It wasn't very long. Also, I feel like, uh,
Speaker 1: I missed an opportunity to have the live interaction commentary
Speaker 1: that you put on Annie. It's almost as entertaining as
Speaker 1: the actual movie. And so if you guys ever want
Speaker 1: to treat if I could ever live stream you watching
Speaker 1: Spider Man into the Spider Verse, and it will never
Speaker 1: be a clip of the movie. It's just you squealing
Speaker 1: at the movie the entire time. It's Oh man, I
Speaker 1: had about Curby dots Curby dots the line and it
Speaker 1: was so so A friend Joe was there and the
Speaker 1: two of you were just having a backup board and
Speaker 1: I kept looking about be going you guys are the
Speaker 1: worst people to watch movies. Yeah. I really couldn't contain
Speaker 1: my enthusiasm. I appreciate that you let me have that. Oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know. One day we're gonna do it again
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna live stream for everyone. I was very excited.
Speaker 1: I didn't know we were going to get to watch that.
Speaker 1: That was kind of a bonus little treat. Yes, Um,
Speaker 1: so we will return to that at the very end.
Speaker 1: And if I want to do spoiled Saturdays where we
Speaker 1: just have a take on something that's really recent and
Speaker 1: if you don't want to be spoiled, then don't listen.
Speaker 1: We could talk about The Joker like that we talked
Speaker 1: about previously, and then Midsummer I have Yeah, I have
Speaker 1: so many horror movies. Please let me talk about this. Um.
Speaker 1: But okay, today we're talking about Batman returns. That turns yeah,
Speaker 1: and UM. For this, I did want to do a
Speaker 1: really quick overview of Catwoman because she's pretty much what
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about in terms of this movie. Um,
Speaker 1: and she's been around a long long time. I think
Speaker 1: definitely future episode because there's a lot to be said
Speaker 1: about her. But quickly, she first appeared in nineteen forty,
Speaker 1: meaning that she's been through the first, second, third, and
Speaker 1: fourth if you want to call that waves of feminism.
Speaker 1: She was designed by Jerry Robinson and Bob Kane. Only
Speaker 1: three women have written for her so far, and she's
Speaker 1: only ever been drawn by men. If you're wondering, um,
Speaker 1: she was one of the first ever female comic book superheroes.
Speaker 1: In quotes, um, her name is Selina Kyle, and she's
Speaker 1: a cat burglar in a cat suit. She's often painted
Speaker 1: as an anti hero and sometimes a villain and sometimes
Speaker 1: a hero, and this allows her to operate in a
Speaker 1: space where she's tough to pin down. Um. She's more
Speaker 1: than Batman's sometimes love interest. Over the years, she's been
Speaker 1: played by a handful of people, from Michelle Peiffer to
Speaker 1: Halle Berry to Ann Hathaway and I think I was
Speaker 1: telling you, Samath. I'm pretty sure most of the mainstream
Speaker 1: women who have played her have all been nominated for oscars.
Speaker 1: Are one oscars so hey yeah, um and yes, And
Speaker 1: most depictions she is highly sexualized. Her outfit is similar
Speaker 1: to what a dominatrix would wear, down to the whip,
Speaker 1: which is usually her weapon of choice, and then there's
Speaker 1: this quote. Um Bob Kane once said of Catwoman, I
Speaker 1: felt that women were feline creatures and men were more
Speaker 1: like dogs. While dogs are faithful and friendly, cats are cool, detached,
Speaker 1: and unreliable. I felt much warmer with dogs around me.
Speaker 1: Cats are as hard to understand as women are. Men
Speaker 1: feel more sure of themselves with a male friend than
Speaker 1: a woman. You always need to keep women at arms length.
Speaker 1: We don't want anyone taking over our souls, and women
Speaker 1: have a habit of doing that. So there's a love
Speaker 1: resentment thing with women. I guess women will feel that
Speaker 1: I'm being chauvinistic to speak this way, but I do
Speaker 1: feel that I've had better relationships with male friends than women.
Speaker 1: With women wants thro romance is over somehow. They never
Speaker 1: remain my friends, of course not. So this is the
Speaker 1: person who created a Catwoman. That might give you some
Speaker 1: insight into the character. This also might she was created
Speaker 1: in part to combat talk of homo eroticism between Batman
Speaker 1: and Robin and to reinforce Batman's heterosexuality. Yeah, Catwoman was
Speaker 1: banned from the comics in the fifties because of the
Speaker 1: comic code that dictated that crime should never be seen
Speaker 1: to pay and Catwoman was not acting like how a
Speaker 1: woman should behave Oh no, and she didn't return until
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties. She was originally played by Julie Numar
Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties TV series with Adam west Um,
Speaker 1: who was also then later on played by Eartha kit
Speaker 1: in the final season of that series, apparently because Julie
Speaker 1: Numar was in a movie contract. She has different origin stories,
Speaker 1: so the first being known as the cat who carries
Speaker 1: the whip and has high stakes thievery. Yeah. Um to
Speaker 1: a stewardess with amnesia that turned to crime that then
Speaker 1: later assisted Batman in stopping crime. Uh, to the now
Speaker 1: Little Nothing, Now to the what We're talking About ninety
Speaker 1: two version of the Revenge speaking Receptionist Assistant an Assistant
Speaker 1: um too and Hathaway's original take on the high stage
Speaker 1: thief right. And throughout these various incarnations, one thing that
Speaker 1: has remained steady is that she is sexualized and the
Speaker 1: power her body has over others. However, since she is
Speaker 1: catering to the male gaze, it's really hard to say
Speaker 1: what is power and what is objectification? Um and I
Speaker 1: have felt this when I have a dressed as her, Um,
Speaker 1: because I have had a lot of super gross comments
Speaker 1: made to me, UM, including one that really stands out
Speaker 1: where this guy said that I quote knew exactly what
Speaker 1: I was doing by addressing as her rape. It was gross.
Speaker 1: It's very comment. Uh. Side note here according to some
Speaker 1: in the original series, um, and then when we see
Speaker 1: it again in both Batman Returns and Dark Knight, the
Speaker 1: love story link between Batman and Catwoman existed. However, when
Speaker 1: Arthur Kit portrayed the role as Catwoman. Because she was
Speaker 1: African American and because Adam West is was white, writers
Speaker 1: and creators felt it was too taboo and not suitable
Speaker 1: for them to be a on screen romance, so they
Speaker 1: changed that story to being bat Girl and Batman, which
Speaker 1: is yeah, bad girl. There was also a boat Woman
Speaker 1: who was introduced when Catwoman was off the stage, who
Speaker 1: was like see heater normativity family. She was like the mom,
Speaker 1: the boring mom, and then Batman is the dad Robin
Speaker 1: nurser side. And I remember because I did watch the series,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess I really like the Adam
Speaker 1: West series growing up, where bad Girl was very the
Speaker 1: girl next door while Catwoman was the bad girl. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the plot. How would you describe this little couple
Speaker 1: so many things? Because you know this is the beginning
Speaker 1: where they were having more than one and I hera
Speaker 1: villain into the stories. So Batman returns in the Batman's sequel,
Speaker 1: directed by Tim Barton with a script by Daniel Waters.
Speaker 1: This is the same dude that did the script for Heathers,
Speaker 1: which any you acknowledged. Yes, and that's gonna be another
Speaker 1: movie I think we need to visit. Um. Michael Keaton
Speaker 1: plays Bruce Wayne Batman, who was doing his best to
Speaker 1: protect Gotham from a corrupt industrialist named Max Shrek, who
Speaker 1: was played by the wonderful Christopher Walkins I browsed so
Speaker 1: good and a crime boss known as the Penguin by
Speaker 1: the who else could it be? But Danny de Vito like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's gonna be any one who
Speaker 1: could replace that. And it takes place Tatada at Christmas time.
Speaker 1: A giant tree at the opening scene, the Christmas tree lighting,
Speaker 1: Yes that's yes, that's true, presents all that yes to
Speaker 1: bring in all of the crazy clowns. Apparently circuses something
Speaker 1: had to do with it, as well as Zoo's Okay,
Speaker 1: so according to the Amazon description, Yeah, let's see what
Speaker 1: how amazons Batman Kate Chris later it's pitted against demented,
Speaker 1: refinous penguin, pitiful orphaned, psychopathic freak, and power hungry capitalist
Speaker 1: villain Max Shrek. So no I mentioned, of course, not
Speaker 1: even though that was really really one of the like that. Honestly,
Speaker 1: between her and Dany DeVito and Christopher Walkin, I remembered
Speaker 1: Michelle Peiffer in the movie. Yeah, and that's what a
Speaker 1: lot of people seem to say when I tell them
Speaker 1: when I would say we're doing this episode, and they
Speaker 1: would have meted the iconic caplan like um. And also,
Speaker 1: I just want to mention my favorite part of this
Speaker 1: Amazon description is that power is in quotes because he's
Speaker 1: there's a power plant involves if you've seen it in
Speaker 1: a Marvel not Marvel, a d C movie for sure.
Speaker 1: Because also the original Batman series had all of the
Speaker 1: kind of uh puns. Oh, so I think it kind
Speaker 1: of gave a lineage to that. Well, yeah, they definitely
Speaker 1: leaned in in this one. I haven't seen, so disclaimer,
Speaker 1: I've seen all of these era Batman movies. I've seen
Speaker 1: all the Christopher Nolan ones, but I saw them all
Speaker 1: in one very drunken day, so I only remember bits
Speaker 1: and pieces. Um. But Samantha, I did rewatch this one
Speaker 1: for this show, so I have seen it, but I
Speaker 1: do I ha got a sense that they really leaned
Speaker 1: hard into those puns, right. I think the second one
Speaker 1: was a little more because the first one was also
Speaker 1: by Tim Burton, and I feel like you see the
Speaker 1: same darkness, but the second one seems a little kitchier.
Speaker 1: But to be fair, I guess you have that origin
Speaker 1: story of Batman, so the darkness of you know, seeing
Speaker 1: his parents die and all of that, and him coming
Speaker 1: out to the community as you know, this vengeful hero,
Speaker 1: but you do also have the joker of doing a
Speaker 1: majority of the puns and being somewhat kitchy. As of
Speaker 1: the second one, I think it's just kind of all happened.
Speaker 1: And you did mention about the fact that there wasn't
Speaker 1: many scenes with Keaton. Yeah, that's one of my favorite
Speaker 1: parts of the movie. Actually, he's in like a fourth
Speaker 1: of it. Um, he's really not about him in my opinion,
Speaker 1: especially the first half. Yeah, it definitely was all the
Speaker 1: origin stories for Catwoman, yes, and I love that. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about Catwoman. So Michelle Phifer played her Selena
Speaker 1: Kyle Um slash Catwoman, and when the movie starts, Selena
Speaker 1: Kyle is the embodiment of the crazy cat lady. Um.
Speaker 1: She's sort of frumpy and her outfit she has these
Speaker 1: glasses on which we all know and the that meant, well,
Speaker 1: it's still I guess means that. Yeah, people still use
Speaker 1: that as a thing of like, unless you're doing library
Speaker 1: esque type of thing. Librarians is still like the transformative moment. Yeahiculous.
Speaker 1: And by the way, Michelle Phifer frumpy is an Oxymoronen.
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen. Yeah, yeah, she says, I love it.
Speaker 1: When she gets into her empty apartment, she says, honey,
Speaker 1: I'm home. Oh I forgot I'm not married right. Um.
Speaker 1: And she is the executive assistant slash secretary of Max
Speaker 1: shrek Um, who is the ultimate sexist boss. He regularly
Speaker 1: demeans her, He dismisses her, he humiliates her like publicly. Um.
Speaker 1: When she speaks, she does so as though she doesn't
Speaker 1: want to be heard, and she voices things in questions. Um.
Speaker 1: After she what what does this? Christopher Baal can say,
Speaker 1: we have a housebroken her yet and he leaves, and
Speaker 1: then she calls herself a corn doll, herself like, look,
Speaker 1: so stupid corn dog, um, which is a great friend.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna call everyone a corn dog.
Speaker 1: I haven't heard that insult in a long time, and
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it, especially coming from a shell fifer
Speaker 1: and very funny. Um. And then this is around the
Speaker 1: time where the Christmas present thing goes wrong and the
Speaker 1: shell fighter gets attacked and it's held hostage by a
Speaker 1: clown um and well, and he has like a taser
Speaker 1: and Batman saves her and then kind of just leaves
Speaker 1: because she's invisible at that point. Yeah, yea yea yeah.
Speaker 1: And then she has to go back to work late
Speaker 1: and she discovers that her boss is up to no good,
Speaker 1: up to no good. Yeah, she's basically she's she's smart
Speaker 1: enough to to be like, wait a minute, your power
Speaker 1: plant is gonna suck power from the city. What's going on?
Speaker 1: And then he's like, oh, you're very good at your job,
Speaker 1: too good perhaps, um, and he pushes her out a
Speaker 1: window and uh he yeah, in his mind, what value
Speaker 1: did she have? A poor lonely woman. He just pushed
Speaker 1: her out the window right. Yeah, and this is when
Speaker 1: she becomes catwoman, I guess after a bunch of cats
Speaker 1: walk all over her and one bites her. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: do see her see it nibbling on her finger and
Speaker 1: there's blood involved. Um. And so she I love this.
Speaker 1: She goes she looks like a zombie. Um and she says, honey,
Speaker 1: I'm holl again. Uh. And then she listens to her
Speaker 1: answering machine and there are three messages on it, one
Speaker 1: from her mother, one from her ex well basically her
Speaker 1: boyfriend breaking up with her says his therapist said he
Speaker 1: doesn't need an appendage anymore. Um. And then a third one,
Speaker 1: which is from a perfume company that's basically pushing how
Speaker 1: women's sexuality is their currency, which, by the way, as
Speaker 1: a call back to her comic book roots as a
Speaker 1: sex worker, um and um how capitalism profits off of that,
Speaker 1: like the systemic kind of sexualization of gratification of women.
Speaker 1: And also it's from her boss's company. It's her boss's
Speaker 1: department store, so she really uh transforms. So she gets
Speaker 1: um like black spray paint and starts spray praying her apartment.
Speaker 1: By the way, it's like all pink and really kind
Speaker 1: of girly. Well, there's stuffed animals. If we discussed there's
Speaker 1: very much of a young young girl, right, trying to
Speaker 1: grow up to be a woman. It was a transformation
Speaker 1: to be a woman. Yeah. So she gets out of
Speaker 1: black spray paint, spraying things down. She goes into her
Speaker 1: her closet and pulls out a black jacket, um and
Speaker 1: starts kind of frantically sewing it together to make this
Speaker 1: cat suit. And I just want to like reiterate she
Speaker 1: survived at tempted murder, returns home and thanks to herself
Speaker 1: revenge but first outfit. Who does it through that? I mean,
Speaker 1: you can't kick someone in a skirt, which is what
Speaker 1: she's been wearing the entire time. Um. As part of
Speaker 1: this transformation, her voice becomes deeper, kind of cat like
Speaker 1: and purring. Um. She she has this sign, a neon
Speaker 1: sign that said hello there, but she breaks it so
Speaker 1: that instead says hell here, that's one of my face things.
Speaker 1: Want that. It's very pink as well. It's a reminder, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the sign is pink. Um. And I feel like this
Speaker 1: scene is a very screw you to the white picket
Speaker 1: fence kind of perfect life that we've a lot of
Speaker 1: it has been told this is success, this is the
Speaker 1: only way. Um. So yeah, she becomes overcome with a
Speaker 1: self destructive desire for revenge. Um and and this way
Speaker 1: she's a great mirror for Bruce Wayne's character. Where he
Speaker 1: is all about justice, she is all about vengeance. Um.
Speaker 1: He is a member of the wealthiest class. She decidedly
Speaker 1: it's not. She is torn between, um, what she should
Speaker 1: do and what she wants to do, between the tragedy
Speaker 1: of her past and the potential to make the future
Speaker 1: into something better. And Batman even says her at the
Speaker 1: very end were the same split right down the center,
Speaker 1: And yeah, I do like that. It's her origin story.
Speaker 1: We see Batman saves her and then she stabs him,
Speaker 1: which seems to be a criticism of the damsel in distress.
Speaker 1: He offers her a fairy tale the ending women have
Speaker 1: been taught to want, and she was like, oh, I
Speaker 1: couldn't live with myself, and the scratches him in the
Speaker 1: face and leaves a hook or a claw, leaves a claw.
Speaker 1: She is not a sex object, or at least she
Speaker 1: is that and something else. She is scary, unhinged and
Speaker 1: a total nightmare. That crazy girl right if I would
Speaker 1: put a live bird in her mouth for this movie
Speaker 1: which he told me about. Yeah, and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, she actually did this. And Penguin, who
Speaker 1: totally does objectify her, describes her as beauty and the
Speaker 1: beast in one luscious Christmas gift back. Yeah. Also, he's
Speaker 1: just disgusting in every way. Yeah. And when she they
Speaker 1: kind of make a pact to work together to take
Speaker 1: down Batman, and when she refuses his advances because in
Speaker 1: his mind there was going to be this romantic sexual
Speaker 1: component to them working together. And when she's she refuses
Speaker 1: his advances, he says, you're setting out all the signals
Speaker 1: to have you spade, and then he attacks her and
Speaker 1: cost her one of her nine lives. Um. And also
Speaker 1: of notes in this conversation, Penguin does he die He dies? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he dies when he picks the cute umbrella at the end,
Speaker 1: the feminine one which does nothing against the white, heteronormative
Speaker 1: masculinity a batman. Yes. Uh. And also another line we
Speaker 1: wanted to showcases when Catwoman, one of the first things
Speaker 1: she does is break into the department store by her
Speaker 1: boss h and these two guards see her and she's
Speaker 1: in this very sexual, sexualized outfit, very sexy, and one
Speaker 1: of them says, oh, I don't know whether to attack
Speaker 1: or take her home? Uh or what movie says I'm
Speaker 1: in love anyway, basically I should I attack her or
Speaker 1: trying to get with her? And Catwoman says, you men
Speaker 1: always confusing your pistols with your privates, very soldiery, like
Speaker 1: too yes, and then she just blows up the department.
Speaker 1: She doesn't steal jewelry, leave, yeah, doesn't killing body yet yet,
Speaker 1: and she that's when she gets the whip her weapon. Um.
Speaker 1: And then when Batman attacks her, she says something like
Speaker 1: how dare you? I'm a woman, but then immediately strikes
Speaker 1: back and finishes her thought with as I was saying,
Speaker 1: I'm a woman and can't be taken for granted. Life's
Speaker 1: a bitch now, so am I? Hell yeah, yeah, she
Speaker 1: really leans hard. I felt like into the hysterical label
Speaker 1: that has so long been used against women. She just
Speaker 1: went for it. You're gonna call me that, okay, cat lady,
Speaker 1: I'm away crazy cat lady exactly. Oh yeah, And I
Speaker 1: just want to say talk about some us t unresolved
Speaker 1: sexual tension. I did read a lot of accounts from
Speaker 1: people who saw this when they were maybe adolescents, and
Speaker 1: we're saying that it was a real formative. It really
Speaker 1: was her licking his face alongs huh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: um and then yeah after your Batman kind of offers
Speaker 1: her this fairy tale ending. Um, she refuses and instead
Speaker 1: she dies getting her revenge on Shrek. But she has
Speaker 1: one life left, so maybe she didn't die. And you
Speaker 1: see spoiler alert? Are you just see here at the end?
Speaker 1: Do you? I don't remember. I remember he gets out
Speaker 1: of the car and he looking at the bat sign.
Speaker 1: Oh is she Yes? You were the one that called
Speaker 1: it out. I was checked out, friend. Alright. So when
Speaker 1: this movie came out, it was in the middle of
Speaker 1: the third wave feminism, and some people have interpreted Catwoman's
Speaker 1: storyline as a feminist awaking and finding identity. I would
Speaker 1: agree with that. One of her first acts as Catwoman
Speaker 1: is rescuing a woman from rape and then brating that
Speaker 1: woman for acting like a victim. And she's not learning
Speaker 1: to be a hero. She's just enraged and knocking and
Speaker 1: looking to break the patriarchal system. She's angry at every
Speaker 1: one who participated it in her mind allows to continue
Speaker 1: it so as she says, you make it easy, don't
Speaker 1: you always waiting for some batman to save you? I
Speaker 1: am catwoman? Hear me roar. Yeah. That was the first
Speaker 1: thing she did when she got out. And she even
Speaker 1: says to the potential victim, the man attacking her, go
Speaker 1: easy on me. It's my first time. Yes, yes, because
Speaker 1: he was like what So. Also, perhaps she's yelling at
Speaker 1: her past self who she's saved by batman early on
Speaker 1: in the movie when we were talking about with the
Speaker 1: circus people. Um, And she takes the taste from that
Speaker 1: attacker and later weaponizes it against her enemies, which she
Speaker 1: did actually actually use on that clown as well, but
Speaker 1: he was already out right she uses it at the end,
Speaker 1: she like puts it in her changue kisses Christopher walk in. Um.
Speaker 1: So like she's kind of yeah, she's weaponizing her sexuality.
Speaker 1: I guess you could read it that way, um. And
Speaker 1: then taking this weapon from people who would do her
Speaker 1: harm and using it against against them, right, because he
Speaker 1: did try to have the last word and tell her
Speaker 1: she's fired. He tries to kill her and runs out
Speaker 1: of bullets with two of her lives remaining, right, right,
Speaker 1: and yes, we do have to talk about her outfit. Um.
Speaker 1: It is perhaps one of the most forfeitting outfits ever
Speaker 1: to grace the big screen. Um. Pieces of shiny black
Speaker 1: leather stretched over her body and stable together as if
Speaker 1: to represent the fragile nature of her psyche that she's
Speaker 1: barely being whole held together. Um. And the whip, of course, UM.
Speaker 1: So the whip being more about punishing and pain than
Speaker 1: about killing. Um. And there was definitely some misogyny in
Speaker 1: the way critics wrote about about her, the shellfifer and
Speaker 1: the outfit. Um. Here's an example from the rolling Stone.
Speaker 1: Off to the side. Michael Keaton aka Bruce Wayne A
Speaker 1: ka Batman was enjoying the hell out of the moment.
Speaker 1: Oh it was tasty. Here was mrs two time Oscar nominee,
Speaker 1: mrs Actors Actor, mrs total get it into takes professional,
Speaker 1: held and checked by a few pounds of wet second
Speaker 1: latex in a pair of pointy ears. That's a weird comment. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: they had to govern Michelle Peiffer and Baby Bowder before
Speaker 1: she donned the suit, which they then vacuum packed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She just recently talked about it during an interview and
Speaker 1: about how awful it was, and painful it was for her.
Speaker 1: So Catwomen outfits ranked so many thought pieces on the
Speaker 1: cat suit. There's different variations. Some see it as embracing
Speaker 1: the sexual objectification of women and weaponizing it, or maybe
Speaker 1: rejecting males superhero gard and thus the patriarchy and leaning
Speaker 1: in hard to the feminine. So Julie Newmar, who I
Speaker 1: really I watched growing up and I'm not that old,
Speaker 1: so I was, I was watching reruns. Just want to
Speaker 1: put that out there before they think, come, it's okay
Speaker 1: to be that old. I'm not that old. I want
Speaker 1: to put that out there. Julie Newmar, who played Catwoman
Speaker 1: in her first on screen appearance in the nineteen sixties,
Speaker 1: wrote in a letter to The Huffing to Post every
Speaker 1: girl is a cow woman. There will always be a catwoman.
Speaker 1: Catwoman is forever, and her costume was perhaps the most
Speaker 1: tame and the most kitten like. It was a black,
Speaker 1: sparkly suit reminiscent of a courset around the waist, complete
Speaker 1: with a gold belt, and of course cattiers Lee Mary
Speaker 1: whether who was in the movie or pretty much the
Speaker 1: same thing when she played her. And then there's a
Speaker 1: the kit who took over from newmar Uh. She wore
Speaker 1: the same thing but adjusted the placement of the necklace,
Speaker 1: pulling it higher. And then of course there's Hallie Berry,
Speaker 1: who played the titular character and Catwoman. She wore a
Speaker 1: push up bra, leather gloves, whips, tight leather pants, and
Speaker 1: as pretty much it's very dominatory Dominatrix. I have not
Speaker 1: seen this film. I've seen parts of it, including the
Speaker 1: infamous catnep scene, but I know it's about an addictive
Speaker 1: beauty cream targeted towards women and playing on the fact
Speaker 1: that all of these high beauty standards we placed on women,
Speaker 1: so we probably would have a lot to say about it.
Speaker 1: I also know Sharon Stone is the one behind the
Speaker 1: beauty cream. People are like, don't be telling me Sharon
Speaker 1: Stone is not hot, even if she's older, Okay, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: she is beautiful and hot. And also this is the
Speaker 1: one that won the Razzie. It is considered it was
Speaker 1: considered one of the worst films ever created. But I
Speaker 1: think also there was a conversation about it being really
Speaker 1: heavy handed and it was trying way too hard. I mean,
Speaker 1: one of the main characters was named Affiliate Powers. Affiliate
Speaker 1: Powers that's come on, y'all, we can do a little better.
Speaker 1: But I guess it could be I was gonna say
Speaker 1: it could be that we're just looking at a different
Speaker 1: what lens, because all the other ones are fairly heavy
Speaker 1: handed as well. Whether it's some kind of pun whether
Speaker 1: some kind of like over the top whatever. But it
Speaker 1: just yeah, it wasn't not a great movie. It made
Speaker 1: me sad. So you've seen it. I've seen parts of it. Okay,
Speaker 1: finish it, Okay, alright, just clar f. Just neither of
Speaker 1: us have seen it, but from what we have seen,
Speaker 1: it left someone to be let some things to be desired. Um.
Speaker 1: And then Anne Hathaway's version, Um, this one. She was
Speaker 1: meant to be the most functional. Her outfit was meant
Speaker 1: to be the most functional. It's a black leather stealth
Speaker 1: suit and the cat ears were the points of her
Speaker 1: night vision fancy crime goggles. Her stilettos were weapons. I
Speaker 1: think I've mentioned on the show before. I did used
Speaker 1: to cosplay her, and sometimes I still do. And my
Speaker 1: experience was everybody loved that costume, but they also love
Speaker 1: telling me that they didn't like Anne Hathaway. Um. Poor an. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've talked about that on this show before. Our people
Speaker 1: just don't like Ann Hathaway because they see her as prissy.
Speaker 1: She's vegan person nickitty, but really it seems me she
Speaker 1: just knows what she wants well as Gonna saying Natalie
Speaker 1: would would be the same. She's a vegan all of
Speaker 1: those things, but she's not as disliked seemingly as Anne
Speaker 1: Hathaway is. Maybe that's another perfect another episode. And then
Speaker 1: we wanted to end with this for our discussion of Catwoman.
Speaker 1: Glorias Dynham's review of The Dark Night and and Hathaway's
Speaker 1: performance read I saw the Dark Knight Returns last night,
Speaker 1: and among other things, Catwoman is a feminist superhero with
Speaker 1: the storyline and transformation of her own plus class consciousness,
Speaker 1: a girl buddy, equal skills with the Batman equipment, and
Speaker 1: an apartment of her own in old Town and she
Speaker 1: gets the guy. So yeah, that's that's kind of our
Speaker 1: little kid. Uh. Batman returns chat Woman extra Christmas. We
Speaker 1: do have a little bit more for your very brief
Speaker 1: run through, but first we have a quick break for
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor and we're back. Thank you spots here,
Speaker 1: and we're back a little bit with Iron Man three. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna blaze through this of minutes as I've seen
Speaker 1: this one too, and I'm not gonna lie. I have
Speaker 1: a hard time I remembering all of this. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: I got you, I got you, all right. So we
Speaker 1: opened on Blue by Il six five the years, Tony
Speaker 1: Stark is about to bang a scientist named Maya Hanson
Speaker 1: played by Rebecca Hall who has this plan all about
Speaker 1: regenerating plants or something. Um. He stands up an awkward
Speaker 1: all just Killian played by Guy Pierce uh And then yes,
Speaker 1: we skipped to the present m c U timeline post
Speaker 1: Avengers a symbol, and Tony has built a bunch of
Speaker 1: Iron Man suits and it's Christmas time. One of the
Speaker 1: first scenes is him trying on his new Iron Man
Speaker 1: suit to jingle Bells kind of a sassy version of
Speaker 1: jingle Bells um. And Tony is clearly distant and struggling
Speaker 1: with maybe PTSD definitely anxiety attacks post New York City
Speaker 1: and the Avengers um, which is impacting his relationship with
Speaker 1: his wife, Pepper Pots. I didn't think so, but a
Speaker 1: lot of places his significant other okay, because they didn't
Speaker 1: get married until after the first that the wedding was
Speaker 1: in the one You're right, so significant other why I
Speaker 1: put that? Well, I put that originally, but then everywhere
Speaker 1: I was reading said wife, and I was like, maybe
Speaker 1: they got divorced and then got remarried anyway, whatever, Now
Speaker 1: not so awkward and pretty handsome all Killian shows up
Speaker 1: to meet Pepper and is very flirtatious with her. Uh.
Speaker 1: Tony's head of security, suspicious, stumbles on mysterious plot gets
Speaker 1: severely injured. At the same time, you have a string
Speaker 1: of terrorist attacks orchestrated by a villain known as the Mandarin,
Speaker 1: and this has the press clamoring after Tony Stark ok
Speaker 1: iron Man asking him if he's going to do something
Speaker 1: about it, and angry about what happened to his head
Speaker 1: of security, Happy Start challenges the Mandarin on live TV,
Speaker 1: gives away his home address, which I feel like it's
Speaker 1: pretty obvious where he lives, but whatever, I guess it's
Speaker 1: the challenge. I don't know. Uh So, when he arrives home,
Speaker 1: Pepper is packing and also he has once again given
Speaker 1: her a gift that she clearly doesn't want, a huge
Speaker 1: rabbit custom made um. At this point, Maya shows up
Speaker 1: at the door, and it's like, hey, I think my
Speaker 1: boss works for the Mandarin And then all these missiles
Speaker 1: start probably into their house, and Tony is able to
Speaker 1: save Pepper and Maya Henson Rebecca Hall's character by putting
Speaker 1: them in some of his Iron Man suits and blasting
Speaker 1: them out. Uh. He manages to escape, but not before
Speaker 1: his suit takes major damage and is pretty much nonfunctional
Speaker 1: When he lands in the middle of nowhere in Tennessee.
Speaker 1: As he's trying to repair a suit, he meets a
Speaker 1: young boy who promises to help him secure some supplies
Speaker 1: because everyone thinks Tony is dead. Um and then all right.
Speaker 1: He finds out about this project called Extremists. Extremists that
Speaker 1: Maya was working on with Killian that experimented on injured
Speaker 1: soldiers to regenerate lost limbs or other injuries. But it
Speaker 1: left these soldiers unstable, like I will explode spontaneously unstable. Uh.
Speaker 1: Iron Man. He's like trying to figure out what he's
Speaker 1: gonna do, how he's gonna save the day. He's on
Speaker 1: the verge of a panic attack when the kid says,
Speaker 1: build something. You build things, right, just go build something,
Speaker 1: So he goes back to his roots um and As
Speaker 1: this is happening, Pepper is captured by Maya, who was
Speaker 1: working for Killian and is used in the extremest experiment um.
Speaker 1: Killian even tells her that she is a trophy when
Speaker 1: she's strapped into this pot in a sports braw and
Speaker 1: tight pants. Then Tony is captured after he discovers that
Speaker 1: the Mandarin is just an English actor pretending to be
Speaker 1: a terrorist. Um and this is a big twist in
Speaker 1: the movie because he's a huge villain in the comics
Speaker 1: UM Tony is. He attempts to break out, but then
Speaker 1: uh Maya tries to save him when he fails, and
Speaker 1: then Killian just shoots her instead of listening to her
Speaker 1: because she's like, he won't be able to solve your
Speaker 1: problems without me, I'm your side. Aientists and he just
Speaker 1: kills her. Um And also the President has been captured,
Speaker 1: and this all culminates in a battle between a superhuman
Speaker 1: Killian and his Crony's Tony, his pal Iron Patriot played
Speaker 1: by Don Cheetle, and a bunch of automated iron suits,
Speaker 1: with the President and Pepper's lives hanging literally in balance.
Speaker 1: The President is saved, but Pepper falls into a pit
Speaker 1: of lava, seemingly to her death killing is about to
Speaker 1: kill Tony, but then Pepper rises up from the death
Speaker 1: of Hell metaphorically uh, and now as all temporarily superpowered,
Speaker 1: she does some as kicking in like two minutes or less,
Speaker 1: uh than they kick us together. Tony destroys his Iron
Speaker 1: Man suits and removes his arch reactor. Day is saved.
Speaker 1: It's complicated. Well, I think he just really wanted to
Speaker 1: do a plantline Like I did this before I rewatched it,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh boy, there's so many threads here. Um, alright,
Speaker 1: so let's talk about action figures. Lets. You and I
Speaker 1: had disgustioned and you were telling me a lot about this,
Speaker 1: so as you talked to about In the Female Action
Speaker 1: Figures episode, Rebecca Hall's character was originally meant to be
Speaker 1: the main villain, but the director was pressured by Studio
Speaker 1: Exacts that a female villain action figure wouldn't sell. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure those Guy Pierce action figures left off the shelf.
Speaker 1: Right um and Marvel Entertainment CEO at the time, Permacter said,
Speaker 1: there was an early draft of Ironman three where we
Speaker 1: had an inkling of a problem, which is that we
Speaker 1: had a female character who was the villain in the draft.
Speaker 1: We had finished the script and we were given no
Speaker 1: holes barred mimos saying that cannot stand. And we've changed
Speaker 1: our minds because after consulting, we've decided that those toys
Speaker 1: won't sell as well if it is female. So we
Speaker 1: had to change the entire scriptes because of toymaking. Now
Speaker 1: that's not Figy, that's Marvel Corporate. But now you don't
Speaker 1: have the problem anymore. Yeah, So it was really frustrating
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people involved in the film.
Speaker 1: I know, uh our down Jr. It was like, no,
Speaker 1: you gotta give it more of a role and a
Speaker 1: holiday accepted it on kind of a different which happens
Speaker 1: a lot unfortunately, and especially to women unfortunately. Uh Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can see her action figure episode from more on
Speaker 1: that um. And then I also wanted to say an
Speaker 1: interesting thing about Pepper pots As. While she spends most
Speaker 1: of her time being damseled in this movie and every
Speaker 1: other Iron Man um, although she is painted, is an
Speaker 1: extremely business navvy, incompetent woman. According to some Internet so
Speaker 1: she kills the most people. She kills more people than
Speaker 1: Iron Man on screen, at least she kills Ironmonger and
Speaker 1: Killian iron Man has only killed Ebony Ma on screen. Um.
Speaker 1: And then yeah, I could come back and talk about
Speaker 1: her character because she's painted is sort of a nag,
Speaker 1: like she's never happy with Tony Prow. Yeah. Well that's
Speaker 1: another thing is a lot of people can't separate her
Speaker 1: from Gwenda Paltrow. Um, she is used to make Tony
Speaker 1: feel jealous by the villain. She does spend most of
Speaker 1: the movie distress. She's captured, tortured, and experimented on. It's
Speaker 1: bait for Tony. And then there's a lot of talk
Speaker 1: about fake feminism and how just because she got to
Speaker 1: kick gas for two minutes or less that it's like
Speaker 1: exacts or pointing to it. Look how feminist we are,
Speaker 1: but it ignores everything else, which was kind of the
Speaker 1: complaint for Endgame. Uh is it endgame or is it in? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what is wrong with you today? I've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of movies, so with End Game where they have that
Speaker 1: one giant scene but they're like, hey, look, women, it's
Speaker 1: just so token. Yeah yeah, yeah for sure. Um. And
Speaker 1: then Tony the character as well, I mean he's a womanizer.
Speaker 1: He says a lot of things in the movie that
Speaker 1: are not great. Um, there's like a beauty pageant that's
Speaker 1: not explained. There's all these women in bikinis running around
Speaker 1: such as things like that. Um, and then random trivia.
Speaker 1: I didn't know this. Robert Downey Jr. Got injured in
Speaker 1: the middle of filming and was down for the count
Speaker 1: for six weeks. And since they couldn't hold up production
Speaker 1: for that long, the creators made up a completely digital
Speaker 1: version of him for shot that didn't require dialogue our closeouts,
Speaker 1: so you can try to find the fake Tony Stark
Speaker 1: in there. Um. But yeah, that was just a quick
Speaker 1: look at another superhero holiday movie. Just a minute, you
Speaker 1: just want to talk about the m c U. I did,
Speaker 1: I did, And we do have a tiny, tiny bit
Speaker 1: more about the m c U. But first one more
Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back,
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor, And we're back with a special mention
Speaker 1: Spider Verse. Spider Man into the Spider Verse. So y'all,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I really, I'm gonna live stream you know,
Speaker 1: reaction the joy I feel watching that movie. It's exhilarating.
Speaker 1: It makes my face hurt. It's like you're watching it
Speaker 1: for the first time, the shock that you go through
Speaker 1: with the whole time. Um. And yes, I was this
Speaker 1: is the movie I chose for a movie rust the
Speaker 1: podcast fire Friend Chuck um. And eventually he had the
Speaker 1: He was like, Andy, we've got to stop talking. But
Speaker 1: I haven't told you about the other things. The frame rate.
Speaker 1: Let me talk more about the frame rate. Um. But
Speaker 1: I did want to mention it because it's one of
Speaker 1: my favorite movies of all time, and it takes place
Speaker 1: at Christmas. Um. If you remember, Chris Pines o G
Speaker 1: Spider Man is featured on a holiday album in the movie,
Speaker 1: and the cast actually recorded several holiday songs that you
Speaker 1: can listen to and by if you want, um, including
Speaker 1: Spiky it's cold outside, swinging around the Mistletoe, Silent Night,
Speaker 1: You're welcome, joy to the world that I just saved,
Speaker 1: Spidy the Snowman is beginning to look a lot like
Speaker 1: a non denominational holiday. Yeah. I think the only part
Speaker 1: that I realized it was holiday was because that song
Speaker 1: randomly comes on in the security guards room and that's it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's a holiday. There's snow, there's Christmas trees. If
Speaker 1: you look, Um, it's diverse, It's gorgeous. It has fleshed
Speaker 1: out female bad as vulnerable characters like Spider, Gwyn Penny Parker,
Speaker 1: Aunt May Doc what a great villain? So Phil Lord
Speaker 1: and Christopher Miller's goal for the film inspire young people
Speaker 1: to become heroes, inspire grown ups to help them do it,
Speaker 1: and remind us all that you don't need to be
Speaker 1: bitten by radio active Spider to do your part. You
Speaker 1: are powerful and we are counting on you. Yes, I'm
Speaker 1: pointing to Annie right now. I want does say not
Speaker 1: you necessarily probably beta work speaking No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: they're counting on you necessarily. Um. But yeah, that's just
Speaker 1: what we wanted to say about some less traditional holiday. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there you go. Are not so Christmas Christmas movies,
Speaker 1: which is the way I like it. I will tell
Speaker 1: you once again, I do do a lot of Like
Speaker 1: I said, do do a lot of horror movies during
Speaker 1: this time because I do not like not a fan
Speaker 1: of the season. I'm not. I'm not trying to be
Speaker 1: uh a grinch, but you know, you have to cope
Speaker 1: with things the way you can cope with it. So
Speaker 1: let us know you're not so Christmas. See Christmas movie recommendations.
Speaker 1: And I would also consider die Hard, which I know
Speaker 1: has been a debate action movie that takes place at Christmas. Yes,
Speaker 1: and a lot of the Harry Potters as Christmas movies
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, we watched you know, definitely a little
Speaker 1: bit the first The first two are the ones that
Speaker 1: I would consideras Happy Christmas. Harry, Yeah, I think he
Speaker 1: does it is Christmas at one point in definitely one though,
Speaker 1: is it? Ye, when he goes to visit That's right,
Speaker 1: That's right. So yeah, let us know your recommendations because
Speaker 1: I would love to know more and to watch more
Speaker 1: movies that are not Yes, the Netflix movies that I'm seeing,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to watch those, Yes, And
Speaker 1: let us know what we should do for our next
Speaker 1: feminist movie Friday. And also if you have any feminist
Speaker 1: movie thoughts. I know we moved through those partiquately, but
Speaker 1: so if you have any thoughts about them that we
Speaker 1: missed it, we would love to hear them. You can
Speaker 1: email us at Stuff Media, Mom Stuff at iHeart media
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Instagram at Stuff
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You and on Twitter at mom'sff Podcast.
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer, Andrew Howard. Thanks
Speaker 1: to you for listening. Steph, I'm Never Told You's a
Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from iheartradiovi is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows Jingle Bills, Batman's Bells,
Speaker 1: Wedding Maid and Egg. No, ok okay