Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff.
Speaker 1: I never told your protection of I heart radios how
Speaker 1: stuff works. So before we start this one, I have
Speaker 1: confession to make. I feel very guilty. I got my
Speaker 1: behavior at the party. Lest nay, I do not good
Speaker 1: for you. I do not. Yeah, I think I maintained
Speaker 1: I feel shame for some of the things I was
Speaker 1: gonna come out maybe j K J. Yeah. I actually always,
Speaker 1: I almost always feel really guilty after I UM at
Speaker 1: a party. Well, no matter what, I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: just like, I get in my head about if I
Speaker 1: embarrassed myself for what were people thinking of? How it
Speaker 1: is behaving? Um, because I am definitely viewed as a
Speaker 1: party girl. That is something I know, and I am
Speaker 1: that's accurate because you maintain I I am there, I
Speaker 1: am there to party and have fun, and I Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you invite me to something, it's pretty much guaranteed
Speaker 1: I will show it right and I will probably not
Speaker 1: be there. Yeah. Or if you're like, um, I might
Speaker 1: watch The Winter Soldier and then I'm at your house,
Speaker 1: but first finish the text. I could sense it. Um,
Speaker 1: or we watch three movies instead of one? I do
Speaker 1: I actually do feel bad about it because I was
Speaker 1: I went into that. This is for our our feminist movie. Friday,
Speaker 1: we did a Batman Returns. I really went into that thinking,
Speaker 1: I'm going to watch this one movie we work. It
Speaker 1: was a Monday. The next day was and I'm going
Speaker 1: to go home and I maybe responsible. And then it's
Speaker 1: three am and we've watched two and a half movie,
Speaker 1: right right, So sorry about that. But we're talking about
Speaker 1: guilt and shame and blame and why women are so
Speaker 1: easily aimed and so quick to take on blame. Right
Speaker 1: And before we get into the episode, I didn't want
Speaker 1: to put the trigger warning here. We're briefly going to
Speaker 1: talk about things around sexual assault, miscarriage, domestic violence, mental illness, addiction,
Speaker 1: and self harming behaviors. We're not really going to get
Speaker 1: too deep into any of that stuff, but if it's
Speaker 1: triggering for you putting that out there, Um and yeah,
Speaker 1: I guilt is like my best friend. I feel guilty
Speaker 1: all the time, and I feel ashamed all the time.
Speaker 1: Um and yeah, I feel like sometimes I get this
Speaker 1: deep shame that when people see me, it feels like
Speaker 1: my skin is crawling and I just want to make
Speaker 1: myself really small and invisible. I don't want people to
Speaker 1: look at me. Right, Um, I do the same thing.
Speaker 1: I think it's natural for women, especially women with a
Speaker 1: lot of trauma. I think in general have and and
Speaker 1: i'd say women, I mean anybody encompassing into those who
Speaker 1: identify as female. Um, that it just kind of becomes
Speaker 1: a part of who you are. It's ingrained shame of
Speaker 1: what you should be, the expectations of what you think
Speaker 1: is perfect or the idea of perfection, whether it's look,
Speaker 1: whether it's your jaw, whether it's just maintaining in society.
Speaker 1: I think it's overall overwhelming since of I'm not meeting
Speaker 1: these levels, so therefore I'm failing, and therefore I feel
Speaker 1: guilty and I feel ashamed of who I am or
Speaker 1: what I've done. And I think that's just a really
Speaker 1: hardship that it's really hard to let go of, especially
Speaker 1: if you've learned that as a child. It's just a
Speaker 1: part of your identity and it's hard to shake for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think it goes hand in hand with for
Speaker 1: people who experienced trauma, feeling like you don't want to
Speaker 1: draw attention to yourself or I, like I said, in
Speaker 1: our many series that we did. I feel like I
Speaker 1: have a wound on my face and like everyone can
Speaker 1: see it, like it's really obvious, and so you don't
Speaker 1: want people to see that thing that you are ashamed
Speaker 1: of you feel is really visible. And I, um physically
Speaker 1: manifest this and I kind of like twist s uff
Speaker 1: in a pretzel and I don't even realize I'm doing
Speaker 1: it until someone will point out, like, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 1: Are you? Are you having a panic attack or something?
Speaker 1: And I don't have to unwind. Um. So I didn't
Speaker 1: even recognize it a lot of the time. UM. And
Speaker 1: there actually is a lot of science around the differences
Speaker 1: in definitions between shame and guilt, which we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about. But I thought that was so interesting. So
Speaker 1: we're gonna give you the definitions, but there actually is
Speaker 1: some disagreement on them. Um. So first we'll start with guilt.
Speaker 1: The definition of guilt is a judgment of wrongdoing and
Speaker 1: from the Merriam Webster, the fact of having committed a
Speaker 1: breach of conduct, especially violating law and involving a penalty,
Speaker 1: or the state of one who has committed an offense,
Speaker 1: especially consciously. Yes. Um. And then there's also they go
Speaker 1: on to expand there's feelings of deserving blame, especially for
Speaker 1: imagine defenses or from us sense of inadequacy self reproach,
Speaker 1: a feeling of deserving blame for offenses. So guilt usually
Speaker 1: involves correctly or incorrectly perceived responsibility, like I it was
Speaker 1: an abnormal action or choice that I made. I feel
Speaker 1: guilty about that thing. Um, Yeah, and it usually leads
Speaker 1: to actionable things to make amends. And also today I
Speaker 1: learned that psychologist calls self punishment due to guilt the
Speaker 1: Dabby effect Harry Potter reference. Yeah. Yes, And there are
Speaker 1: a bunch of different types of guilts, right, and one
Speaker 1: of them is survivor's guilt. And I know we've talked
Speaker 1: about this previously, the guilt felt of surviving a traumatic
Speaker 1: event when others did not. This might even involve believing
Speaker 1: you did something wrong to survive. Experts positive that it
Speaker 1: comes from an irrational belief that there's a limited amount
Speaker 1: of goodness in the world and any good a survivor
Speaker 1: experiences comes at the expense of someone else, and just
Speaker 1: kind of on a personal level. For an adoptee, there's
Speaker 1: a whole different level of survivor guilt as in fact,
Speaker 1: if you um research enough, there's a lot of discussion
Speaker 1: on the message boards and support groups about how to
Speaker 1: cope with survivors guilt, whether it's guilt from surviving a
Speaker 1: bad circumstance when the others didn't, guilt fulfilling like you
Speaker 1: haven't met a certain expectation, or the filing you have
Speaker 1: to earn your keep um. And there's a lot to
Speaker 1: be said about the constant reminder from others about how
Speaker 1: blessed someone should feel. Uh, And I think just place
Speaker 1: not being grateful. It's not the same thing as guilt,
Speaker 1: which is sometimes a manipulative tactic used on children. And
Speaker 1: with that, I see this in the foster systems as well,
Speaker 1: where there they say you should be grateful, they will
Speaker 1: come to the children oftentimes be like, how lucky are you?
Speaker 1: You've got all these things? And there's this level of
Speaker 1: responsibility that you have to constantly show appreciation and that
Speaker 1: if a you are questioning maybe your biological stance of
Speaker 1: your family and trying to find them, then then you're
Speaker 1: not being appreciative. If you're questioning and disagreeing with some
Speaker 1: of the views within your family, then you're not being apprecy.
Speaker 1: There's just this whole level of guilt as well as
Speaker 1: the fact that if you aren't showing and showing off
Speaker 1: being the perfect family that you have, somehow messed up
Speaker 1: this family. And I even had guilt as being an
Speaker 1: adopted person within a family that had biological children from
Speaker 1: taking away attention quote unquote from those those biological children.
Speaker 1: There's a whole different thing and it's something that and
Speaker 1: when we talk about survivor's guilt, again, this is completely
Speaker 1: different from just traumatic guilt. But it's a whole different
Speaker 1: thing that that's a big discussion and oftentimes has to
Speaker 1: be unpacked in therapy and in intense of therapy from
Speaker 1: a specialist. And again, like I said, it's often times
Speaker 1: seen in the foster system as well. And then when
Speaker 1: something goes wrong and they're getting taken out of a
Speaker 1: placement or something, they feel that they are the blame
Speaker 1: and they are the reason that something has failed, a
Speaker 1: placement has failed. And speaking of that, there's a different
Speaker 1: type of guilt which is a separation guild. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to say, and you know we should, God,
Speaker 1: no one would like to happen to me. We could
Speaker 1: do a whole episode on Harry Potter and these like
Speaker 1: survivor guilt, because that was something Harry Potter would be
Speaker 1: a mess. He is way too functional, way too functional.
Speaker 1: But Uncle Vernon and you saw say that to him.
Speaker 1: You should be grateful for the cupboard that we put
Speaker 1: you into. Anyway. Yeah, that another type of guilt, separation guilt, UM,
Speaker 1: and this is the belief that separating or differing from
Speaker 1: family or friends in some way harms them, right. And
Speaker 1: that's definitely again as I've seen in UM a lot
Speaker 1: of foster care systems or when even when detaining children
Speaker 1: separating families, there's a lot of traumatic issues and a
Speaker 1: part of that is that separation guilt, whether it's from
Speaker 1: the parent, whether it's from the kid. And there's also
Speaker 1: the whole thing with pets. They have separation anxiety and
Speaker 1: they kind of freak out, and it's that same level
Speaker 1: two of that, are they coming back and if they
Speaker 1: don't come back, it's my fault or if we're not together,
Speaker 1: it's my fault. Yeah, And I mean you can also
Speaker 1: see this in uh, like in my mom's family, everyone
Speaker 1: is really conservative but her and just having that guilt
Speaker 1: of like I don't agree with you and you feel
Speaker 1: bad about it, even though yeah, it totally makes sense
Speaker 1: that we have different opinions and viewpoints, but you betraying
Speaker 1: the family exactly. Yeah yeah. Um. Then there's omnipotent responsibility guilt,
Speaker 1: believing that one is responsible for the happiness of others.
Speaker 1: I connect with that one, so rush. Um. Self hate guilt,
Speaker 1: which is an extreme self loathing. This typically comes from
Speaker 1: an abusive past. Then there's mommy guilt, and this is
Speaker 1: a term that gets thrown around quite a bit when
Speaker 1: we talk about women and guilt and yeah, and on
Speaker 1: this show we've discussed in depth about the pressure is
Speaker 1: placed on moms to be perfect and perfection is impossible,
Speaker 1: so guilt is therefore inevitable. UM. Women are also conditioned
Speaker 1: to be a child's primary caretaker, which means if something
Speaker 1: happens to a child, the there feels guilty and is
Speaker 1: probably being blamed by those around her as well. This
Speaker 1: judgment of mothers can and often does lead to feelings
Speaker 1: of shame, and we see this play out all the time. UM.
Speaker 1: And the blame the mother trope. If if a man
Speaker 1: becomes a serial killer, blamed the mother. If he's not happy,
Speaker 1: blame the mother. If he can't find a job, blame
Speaker 1: the mother. If he married somebody who's not good for
Speaker 1: him or some blame the mother, all these things. And
Speaker 1: then of course I got to mention Hereditary because it's
Speaker 1: my favorite movie every uh no spoilers, but Tony Collette's
Speaker 1: character Annie, Um, she touches on this in her group
Speaker 1: counseling session where she says, I am I feel like
Speaker 1: I am to blame or I am blames and it
Speaker 1: has to do ultimately with something we're gonna talk about
Speaker 1: a minute, but I'm um her genes, genetics, Hereditary, And
Speaker 1: then Scream also got to talk about that because some
Speaker 1: one of my favorite movies, that entire series is pretty
Speaker 1: much to blame the mother trope. It's these moms fault
Speaker 1: for literally everything in every movie. The serial Killer in
Speaker 1: the second one even says I'm sick to death of
Speaker 1: people thinking it's all the mother's fault, you know, as
Speaker 1: she's trying to kill all these people, and yeah, she
Speaker 1: kind of reinforces the trope. She calls it out and
Speaker 1: then reinforces it. Um. Yeah, it's just just something we
Speaker 1: see often. Yeah. So another aspect of this conversation is
Speaker 1: the postpartum guilt and or assigning blame when it comes
Speaker 1: to things like still birth and miscarriage. Experts positive this
Speaker 1: is a coping mechanism to find meaning in a sense
Speaker 1: of control in a really tragic situation, and feeling this
Speaker 1: way in the wake of a tragedy is totally normal.
Speaker 1: But if it persists or becomes chronically debilitating, that points
Speaker 1: to a deeper issue. And one study found that almost
Speaker 1: fifty of women blame their healthcare providers for their child's
Speaker 1: death when surveyed a year later. That could mean that
Speaker 1: they won't trust healthcare professionals moving forward. And that makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense because they need to blame some thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and if it's something outwardly it does it puts It's
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on um, many of those who
Speaker 1: have given bars and or have lost child for sure.
Speaker 1: Several studies have looked into the guilt of a mother
Speaker 1: um and the guilt she often feels that passing on
Speaker 1: genet conditions to her children. The research indicates mothers feel
Speaker 1: more guilt and face more blame for sex linked conditions
Speaker 1: as compared to men. Screening programs for pregnant women that
Speaker 1: identify autosomal recessive disorders are viewed as the responsibility of
Speaker 1: women who want to get pregnant, so not doing so
Speaker 1: invites guilt and blame. Yeah, and then there's white guilt, um,
Speaker 1: And this is a case where guilt can be extremely hindering.
Speaker 1: It can lead to inaction through fear or perhaps even
Speaker 1: looking for an excuse not to act. And this also
Speaker 1: means more emotional labor for people of color basically white
Speaker 1: people asking them to make people of color may make
Speaker 1: people to make them feel better, right as in fact,
Speaker 1: in our episode on forgiveness, we had a listener talk
Speaker 1: about it, um and send us a message and it's
Speaker 1: absolutely correct. So there's a narrative that seems to be
Speaker 1: continuing with this his who whole idea, especially after the
Speaker 1: trial of the murder of both the Geane in which
Speaker 1: the brother and the judge hugged Amber Geiger after her
Speaker 1: sentencing um. And it was kind of that conversation of
Speaker 1: all right, this is a sign of forgiveness and how
Speaker 1: we're going to move on. But the black community felt
Speaker 1: like this is one more scene in which a person
Speaker 1: who was innocent and was black was murdered and they
Speaker 1: had to turn the other cheek and forgive, and everybody
Speaker 1: was praising this whole idea instead of saying, okay, but
Speaker 1: this is not true justice. They got the tenure sentence,
Speaker 1: she whatever, and at least she was convicted. However, this
Speaker 1: is still not the biggest steps because this man was
Speaker 1: sitting in his apartment minding his own business and he
Speaker 1: got shot down, and we know things happen, whatever, But
Speaker 1: it's this continuous verba in which there is this idea
Speaker 1: that you need to let go, and there's this pressure
Speaker 1: put it on the black community saying, oh, just let
Speaker 1: it go. Why are you so angry? Especially black women,
Speaker 1: They are caught up in this whole trope of you're
Speaker 1: supposed to be forgiven. You're supposed to be forgiven, and
Speaker 1: if you're angry, why you're not allotted that time or
Speaker 1: allotted that emotion, to be honest and saying this is
Speaker 1: unbelievably unforgivable, and I am angry, and I think again,
Speaker 1: this is where the continuous debate lingers between all the
Speaker 1: lines of boundaries as well as talking about forgiveness versus forgetting,
Speaker 1: and why is it that we expect a community to
Speaker 1: continually turn the other cheek and when it seems to
Speaker 1: be a continued a piece of relationship for this community
Speaker 1: in which the black people are told let it go,
Speaker 1: but nothing is being done in the name of justice. Instead,
Speaker 1: there's all these unreasonable arguments about why they should let
Speaker 1: it go and move on. And that's not okay. And
Speaker 1: I think that's part of the conversation that's not had
Speaker 1: enough when we talk about blaming others, that when someone
Speaker 1: should feel guilt and shame, that the other person should
Speaker 1: let it go. And that's not necessarily how we should
Speaker 1: be right, just just a little tied right there, just
Speaker 1: a little tir uh that what speaking of tire rage feminism, Um,
Speaker 1: Feminist guilt is another thing. Um. This was my very
Speaker 1: first episode I did was about being a bad feminist
Speaker 1: and the guilt I feel around that. Yeah, because we
Speaker 1: hold ourselves up to a set of standards that are
Speaker 1: virtually impossible to live up to all the time. Um.
Speaker 1: And this opens us up to judgment within the community
Speaker 1: as well. Um, if your identity is tied up in
Speaker 1: a movement like feminism, that can be extremely detrimental that
Speaker 1: kind of judgment. Um. And yeah, that can keep people
Speaker 1: out for sure, um from Baronese fishers essay, guilt and
Speaker 1: shame in the women's movement, radical ideal of action and
Speaker 1: its meaning for feminist intellectuals quote for contemporary feminist This
Speaker 1: tendency to psychologize issues of guilt maybe partially strong because
Speaker 1: of our emphasis on feelings and because of the fear
Speaker 1: we have committed unspeakable wrongs to the women we claim
Speaker 1: as our sisters. But as participants in a radical movement,
Speaker 1: we also need to question the rules by which we
Speaker 1: make such judgments. Is guilt a patriarchal notion? Can we
Speaker 1: develop a feminist understanding of guilt as a part of
Speaker 1: a feminist ethic? How should we deal with the concept
Speaker 1: of collective guilt? Are women responsible for the racism, the
Speaker 1: class oppression, and other injustices perpetrated by our fathers or mothers?
Speaker 1: How do we assess our current complicity and such wrongdoing?
Speaker 1: Does our participation in sexist, racist, homophobic, or anti Semitic
Speaker 1: institutions make us guilty? What is the relation between guilt
Speaker 1: and responsibility? If we adopt a concept of guilt, do
Speaker 1: we hold on to some notion of atonement or responsibility?
Speaker 1: So a lot of questions, There is a lot of thought,
Speaker 1: uh and debate around around guilt happening right now and
Speaker 1: in our I guess the eighties is pretty modern. I
Speaker 1: don't know why. Oh my gosh, the eighties so long ago,
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, thirty years ago, so yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: that's thirty years ago. I mean that was the late too,
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that also we need
Speaker 1: to put in there about how guilt can make you react,
Speaker 1: you know, And I think I've seen this in feminism
Speaker 1: as well, like feminist guilt in this idea that either
Speaker 1: they feel like they're cornered when they feel guilty, so
Speaker 1: they start lashing out inappropriately to other women, or because
Speaker 1: either what they're not doing enough or they're doing too much,
Speaker 1: or they're not doing it right, and that's just kind
Speaker 1: of caught up in all of that guilt that they
Speaker 1: fell within themselves so they don't know what to do,
Speaker 1: or even just giving up. Yeah. Yeah, I certainly feel
Speaker 1: a lot of guilt around well I should have done this,
Speaker 1: or I should go do this, or should There's just
Speaker 1: a million things I feel like I should be doing.
Speaker 1: But you know there's no I'm oh no, no, I'm
Speaker 1: making excuses. Guilt tripping. Um, that is we all probably
Speaker 1: are familiar with that. But it's weaponizing guilt to get
Speaker 1: someone to do something that we want them to do. UM,
Speaker 1: so that is just guilt. We still have to talk
Speaker 1: about blame and shame, but first we have to pause
Speaker 1: for a quick break for words more sponsors, and we're back.
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsored. We are back, and we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about blame. So a definition from Marion Webster is
Speaker 1: to find fault with or censure, to hold responsible, to
Speaker 1: place responsibility for Yeah, that seems more more simple than guilts. UM.
Speaker 1: Relentless self blame, founded or not is a symptom of depression.
Speaker 1: It's linked to another symptom over generalization. So for example,
Speaker 1: I'm not good at X, so I must be terrible
Speaker 1: at X y Z. I'm not good at this one
Speaker 1: particular thing. That means me as a person, I'm bad
Speaker 1: at everything, right, um. Scientists recently found that people with
Speaker 1: depression have an uncoupling or lack of communication between two
Speaker 1: key aerias of the brain when it comes to feeling
Speaker 1: the appropriate amount of guilt. I did have so many
Speaker 1: questions about appropriate amount, but the survey found the city
Speaker 1: found the anterior temporal lobe, which plays a role in
Speaker 1: determining socially acceptable behavior, and the sub general singulate cortex
Speaker 1: and the adjacent septal region, which has to do with
Speaker 1: our feelings of guilt. Yeah, these areas were uncoupled. The
Speaker 1: communication between them only falters when it came to self blame,
Speaker 1: though it worked perfectly fine when it comes to blaming
Speaker 1: others in the context of people with depression. Interesting, So,
Speaker 1: victim blaming, we've talked about this over and over on
Speaker 1: the show is exactly what it sounds like, blaming the
Speaker 1: victim instead of the perpetrator. It plays a huge role
Speaker 1: in sexual assault and domestic violence, both of which statistically
Speaker 1: imp women more than men. And why are we so
Speaker 1: ready to blame the victim besides the fact that we
Speaker 1: don't value women's bodies. Maybe it's health or maybe well
Speaker 1: being in our culture. Um express point to something called
Speaker 1: the just world bias, developed by Melvin Larner in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. We want to believe the world is fair,
Speaker 1: that bad things don't happen to good people. That means
Speaker 1: that we blame the victim. They must have done something
Speaker 1: to bring it on themselves. Otherwise the world is a
Speaker 1: much more frightening place where things don't always make sense,
Speaker 1: and we could do everything right and still be victimized.
Speaker 1: We are the mercy of forces out of our control,
Speaker 1: and studies a shown that believing in a fair, just
Speaker 1: world increases positive health outcomes. But if you think you've
Speaker 1: got a bright future, you're more likely to take care
Speaker 1: of yourself and less likely they have something like depression. However,
Speaker 1: it does come to that whole God will bless me,
Speaker 1: God willhelm me, and again having faith, having and hope
Speaker 1: and things that it's not a bad thing, But it
Speaker 1: definitely does come to a play when you feel like
Speaker 1: maybe some almost deserving of something because of and God's
Speaker 1: only blessing you if you're okay, right, right, right, if
Speaker 1: you behave in a certain way. UM. Women often self
Speaker 1: blame or victim blame themselves for the very same reasons.
Speaker 1: The reality of what happened can be difficult to face.
Speaker 1: In some ways, blaming yourself is easier than accepting, especially
Speaker 1: if in the case of sexual sought it someone you know.
Speaker 1: It can be easier, unfortunately, to think, well, I must
Speaker 1: have done something wrong other than this person did this
Speaker 1: horrible thing, this person that I know. Um. Yet another
Speaker 1: study found that empathy is a part of why we
Speaker 1: victim blamed to empathy, especially among men. For the male perpetrators. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so going off what I just said, a men are
Speaker 1: overall more likely to blame the victims. Another recent study
Speaker 1: found that while self harming behaviors among boys has stayed
Speaker 1: relatively the same over the past couple of years, it
Speaker 1: is skyrocketing among girls. And one of the reasons for this,
Speaker 1: according to the researchers, is that girls internalize their pain
Speaker 1: and anger while boys externalize it. Girls turn it in
Speaker 1: on themselves. And when considering why, the researchers had a
Speaker 1: whole range of potential factors, the what was she wearing, attitude,
Speaker 1: she was asking for it, why didn't she stop at
Speaker 1: dress code? Staying quiet and docile, so it's not to
Speaker 1: provoke violence, all these things putting responsibility of the actions
Speaker 1: of others on girls and women. And in our Fear episode,
Speaker 1: we talked about how we're sort of hardwired to analyze
Speaker 1: bad things that happen to other people and figure out
Speaker 1: what we shouldn't do in those circumstances so the same
Speaker 1: thing won't happen to us. And you and I talked
Speaker 1: about that with the self defense classes and what that
Speaker 1: kind of focuses on, as well as the fact that
Speaker 1: if you just recently saw the victim who rejected a
Speaker 1: man then was kidnapped and murdered and all she did
Speaker 1: was just ignore him. Actually, she didn't need to reject him.
Speaker 1: Let me take that back. She ignored him, yeah, when
Speaker 1: he was cat calling her, and that was enough for
Speaker 1: him to justify kidnapping and murdering this woman. And again,
Speaker 1: I think we've progressed enough that we are not completely like,
Speaker 1: oh but what did she why didn't she? But it's
Speaker 1: still not quite that clear. They still see people say, well,
Speaker 1: they could have done this, or why didn't they do this?
Speaker 1: Or do this, and again they use this as a
Speaker 1: tale um a cautionary tale for us. Next maybe you
Speaker 1: should do this instead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that
Speaker 1: that is something I know a lot of listeners can
Speaker 1: probably relate to you, and I certainly can. But the
Speaker 1: amount of tips I get for saying safe in a
Speaker 1: city as a single woman, oh my gosh, it's absurd.
Speaker 1: It's also a pretty good tool to maintain the status quo.
Speaker 1: The oppressed only have themselves to blame in this mindset,
Speaker 1: So when we're thinking of victim blaming. We usually think
Speaker 1: of sexual assaults, but we can also see it weaponized
Speaker 1: against women in a myriad of ways, including the ginger
Speaker 1: pay gap. Women are good at negotiating as they aren't
Speaker 1: as skills. They use vocal fry. Vocal fry. I guess
Speaker 1: I'm the vocal fry. Oh my gosh, and then people
Speaker 1: turned it off. Yeah, I actually had it was a woman,
Speaker 1: A vocal coach came in when I started this show,
Speaker 1: and she she gave me a lot of good tips,
Speaker 1: but a lot of them were essentially, don't do these
Speaker 1: things that are associated with right and as. In fact,
Speaker 1: I saw one of our friends, one of our co hosts,
Speaker 1: just put it out there asking people what they don't
Speaker 1: like about podcasts, and a couple of women said the
Speaker 1: first thing they said was vocal fry, and I was like,
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? Yeah, it's hard to say any email.
Speaker 1: Maybe she didn't use the stereotypical smiley face to indicate um,
Speaker 1: And then I was thinking about cheating. She didn't could
Speaker 1: possibly go under this whole victim blaming thing as well.
Speaker 1: In heterosexual relationships, when a man cheats, why are we
Speaker 1: so ready to blame his female significant other? She she
Speaker 1: didn't do enough to make him stay, she should have
Speaker 1: left him earlier, et cetera. Ah Um. Since we believe
Speaker 1: that women are better at relationships and we've typically done
Speaker 1: a lot of the work maintaining them, the blame of
Speaker 1: a failed relationship falls at women's feet. The mistress gets
Speaker 1: blamed too, but not the cheating man, not as much. Right. Actually,
Speaker 1: I just saw a thread about Cardi b and how
Speaker 1: she's just then they were just like, I can't believe
Speaker 1: she's apathetic, and they just called her out, and everybody
Speaker 1: on that was like, why are you blaming her? And
Speaker 1: then many were going just back and forth about why
Speaker 1: it was her fault for staying, for knowing and all
Speaker 1: these things. And I was just thinking about, like, it's
Speaker 1: so hard to have that fine line of trust and
Speaker 1: love and we know love is difficult in itself, and
Speaker 1: you think you've got it, and she's got out a
Speaker 1: baby with this man. This happens often, yeah, and you know,
Speaker 1: why is it her fault? Yeah? And I also think
Speaker 1: if we looked out at um daughters as well, there
Speaker 1: there's a pressure of like, keep I can keep this
Speaker 1: family together if I like do all of these things.
Speaker 1: And then if your family doesn't stay together, then it
Speaker 1: was somehow your fault, and there is the whole troupe,
Speaker 1: and then the whole turn women against women. It is
Speaker 1: always the guy just comes out smelling like roses while
Speaker 1: the two women fight. Yes, it's the weirdest thing. I
Speaker 1: never understood that. A two thousand six things study found
Speaker 1: that people with higher levels of binding values, or moral
Speaker 1: values that are foundational two groups coming and stay together
Speaker 1: are more likely to place some sort of blame on
Speaker 1: the victims. This often conflicts with the individualizing values, which
Speaker 1: emphasizes equality for everyone. In the US, conservatives are more
Speaker 1: likely to have more binding values, while liberals lean towards
Speaker 1: individualizing values. In another study conducted by the same study,
Speaker 1: authors found that language that focused on what the perpetrator
Speaker 1: did victim blaming went down. Yes, so if you switched
Speaker 1: in this study, they did if you switched the sentence
Speaker 1: from like, say, Gene had a lot to drink and
Speaker 1: Tom assaulted her if you said like Tom. If you
Speaker 1: switched it so the focus that was on Tom assaulted Gene,
Speaker 1: then people were less likely to victim blame. Right. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like the photos when you have a a
Speaker 1: person versus a person. So if you have, let's say,
Speaker 1: um with the Black Lives Matter stuff, they would often
Speaker 1: have like whatever arrest picture for the victim, and then
Speaker 1: the hero picture for if it was a cop. And
Speaker 1: please understand, I'm not here to say cops are bad.
Speaker 1: I'm not here to say that at all. But in
Speaker 1: those touch votes where they make sure to demonize one
Speaker 1: versus the other, it's very very obvious of what you're
Speaker 1: going to assume. Just find the pictures alone, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that brings us to shame. UM. And the definition
Speaker 1: for shame is a judgment of self not living up
Speaker 1: to an ideal. And the Miriam Webster definition is a
Speaker 1: quote a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming,
Speaker 1: or impropriety. The susceptibility of such emotion a condition of humilating, disgrace,
Speaker 1: or disrepute, something that brings censure or reproach, also something
Speaker 1: to be regretted, and it usually shame usually leads to
Speaker 1: withdrawal behaviors from Reconsidering the differences between shame and guilt, quote,
Speaker 1: shame is an unpleasant emotion implying a self evaluation of
Speaker 1: inadequacy to meet the standards of one's ideal self. The
Speaker 1: self attributed inadequacy may or may not imply a global
Speaker 1: negative self few. Moreover, it may or may not be
Speaker 1: perceived as stable and uncontrollable. Only if it is perceived
Speaker 1: as uncontrollable and stable, shame will be associated with helplessness
Speaker 1: and hopelessness. A shame people may regard themselves as either
Speaker 1: responsible or non responsible for a fault, but in any case,
Speaker 1: when experiencing pure shame, they are not considering responsibility issues. Guilt,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, is an unpleasant emotion implying a
Speaker 1: negative self evaluation against one's moral standards, that is, the
Speaker 1: standards concerning those behavior's, goals, beliefs, or treats for which
Speaker 1: one regards oneself as responsible. The evaluation is negative and
Speaker 1: that such behaviors, goals, etcetera. Are viewed as harmful. Therefore,
Speaker 1: guilt implies a self evaluation of responsible harmfulness, that is, wrongfulness.
Speaker 1: The wrongdoing can be either actual or potential, that is,
Speaker 1: a possible consequence of personal traits and dispositions, provided the
Speaker 1: person views such shits as a modifiable through effort, thereby
Speaker 1: feeling responsible for not trying to modify them. So that's
Speaker 1: a lot. That's a lot. But basically what it was
Speaker 1: that this this was a fascinating look right at the
Speaker 1: complexity of shame and guilt. Um and it's it feels
Speaker 1: bad to boil it down because the whole thing was
Speaker 1: about don't boil it down. But it's pretty much shame
Speaker 1: is there's something just wrong with you and that's why
Speaker 1: something happened, whereas guilt is like, here's this thing that
Speaker 1: I did that violates my more world principles and is
Speaker 1: abnormal behavior for me, Like I believe that is wrong
Speaker 1: and it is something that I have control over and
Speaker 1: responsibility for. That's pretty much right. The difference, Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot, definitely. So shame can involve a
Speaker 1: whole host of physical symptoms increased heart rate, sweat flushing,
Speaker 1: head hanging, shoulder, hunting, withdrawing, avoiding, eye contact, nausea, disneys,
Speaker 1: and or self loathing. And you might think to yourself
Speaker 1: that you are a failure, that you are unlovable and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And it can also contribute to addiction.
Speaker 1: It can hold you back at work and in relationships
Speaker 1: that shame of I can't do this, so therefore I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do this, so therefore I have failed.
Speaker 1: And some studies have linked shame to increase inflammation, which
Speaker 1: is an indicator of disease and or illness, which makes
Speaker 1: sense because shame is tied to stress, which is tied
Speaker 1: to all kinds of negative health outcomes. Research suggests that
Speaker 1: men transform shame into feelings of anger or defensiveness, while
Speaker 1: women are more likely to internalize it again turning it
Speaker 1: on themselves. Blame is often a way of redirecting the
Speaker 1: powerlessness that comes with shame. Shame has also been positively
Speaker 1: linked to aggression and hostilities. Other studies found no link though,
Speaker 1: so that is also still ongoing. Research is on going there,
Speaker 1: and shame and guild is integral when it comes to addiction,
Speaker 1: frequently a major factor in preventing addicts from seeking help.
Speaker 1: Um kind of Similarly, we discussed in our Trauma mini
Speaker 1: series how feelings of shame after a sexual assault is
Speaker 1: a major obstacle when it comes to reporting or even
Speaker 1: telling someone what happened. Yeah, yeah, because shame shame is
Speaker 1: something you want to hide. Um, so it will keep
Speaker 1: you from admitting that you need help or or just
Speaker 1: even telling someone this is maybe I'm dealing with a
Speaker 1: substance abuse issue or sexual assault because it's something you
Speaker 1: want to hide in your right, was shamed of and
Speaker 1: oftentimes us with adas this self medicating that is that
Speaker 1: whole I'm going to do it myself. I want to
Speaker 1: fix myself right because I don't want to share. I'm ashamed, right,
Speaker 1: And that ties in again that's kind of the vicious
Speaker 1: cycle of UM sexual assault and we talked about that
Speaker 1: in our Trauma mini series. Is that a lot of
Speaker 1: people who have gone through trauma, they are trying to
Speaker 1: self medicate to deal with the trauma, and that in
Speaker 1: turn can lead to also a substance abuse issue. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: So that's what we have to say about those three
Speaker 1: things when it gives a definition, and that is a
Speaker 1: lot to say. But we still have some more um.
Speaker 1: But first we have one more quick break for word
Speaker 1: from our sponsor and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. Steady
Speaker 1: out of the University of the Basque kind Tree in
Speaker 1: Spain found that women feel more guilt compared to men.
Speaker 1: And not only that, the researchers found men, especially in
Speaker 1: men aged thirty three, don't feel enough guilt relative to
Speaker 1: their actions. Yeah, that makes me chuckle to you again.
Speaker 1: Enough guilt, but all right? Um? That does change as
Speaker 1: they get older. Middle aged women take on the most guilt.
Speaker 1: The researchers theorized women are socially conditioned to feel more guilt,
Speaker 1: and and that isn't based on evolution or brain chemistry
Speaker 1: or something like that. Society puts higher expectations on women,
Speaker 1: increasing the chances of us not living up to those expectations,
Speaker 1: and therefore our feelings of guilt are feelings of being
Speaker 1: a failure. The study concluded. The guilt most frequently experienced
Speaker 1: by women is called anxious aggressive guilt are causing some
Speaker 1: sort of harm to another person. This could be something
Speaker 1: as simple as saying no to someone. According to study
Speaker 1: author its Te Sparia, the anxious aggressive kind of guilt
Speaker 1: is more common in people who have been raised in
Speaker 1: a more blame imposing environment and who are governed by
Speaker 1: stricter rules about behavior in general and aggression in particular.
Speaker 1: To combat all of this, she suggested a whole range
Speaker 1: of practices to reduce the readiness to accept guilt and
Speaker 1: women and the social forces behind them, as well as
Speaker 1: improving men's interpersonal skills. This could also play into why
Speaker 1: women apologize more frequently and repeatedly, not in the conversational
Speaker 1: way of I'm sorry that happened to you, but legitimately, Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you bumped into me. I'm sorry. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have been in this public space. You're right, I'm
Speaker 1: walking in behind you. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I have
Speaker 1: a friend who apologizes all right the time, all the time,
Speaker 1: Like you don't have to apologize for talking to me
Speaker 1: or friends, but if you correct them, you feel guilty
Speaker 1: because they feel guilty. Yes, exactly, exactly. Um, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of ways women are conditioned to feel shame
Speaker 1: about our das, which we've talked about right, and I
Speaker 1: think we should also put in here when we talk
Speaker 1: about shame. Well, this was very heteronormative, and obviously there's
Speaker 1: a whole other level for those who are in the
Speaker 1: l g B d q I A plus community, obviously,
Speaker 1: because they're taught shame from very beginning, oftentimes by society,
Speaker 1: oftentimes by media, oftentimes by family. And um, we haven't
Speaker 1: talked about this enough and we know from our buy
Speaker 1: episodes how how much of a toll mentally and physically
Speaker 1: that it takes on those individuals and how how very
Speaker 1: very dangerous erature is and and just to tell people
Speaker 1: get over this is not who you are. You should
Speaker 1: be ashamed. Those types of things are so so so
Speaker 1: dangerous obviously as we see the statistics of all the
Speaker 1: self harm abuse things that are underreported. UM. So we
Speaker 1: just want to acknowledge that though we talk, we're talking
Speaker 1: about a lot of heteronormative ideas in this text, that
Speaker 1: we acknowledge that those for shame can be on a
Speaker 1: whole different level for those who are especially who are intersectional,
Speaker 1: whether it's a person of color who has bought you know,
Speaker 1: all of those levels that there's just added layers of
Speaker 1: what shame and guilt looks like and then trying to
Speaker 1: shed that from your identity as well. Yeah, and and
Speaker 1: we learn those things from such a young age. UM.
Speaker 1: So it's yeah, it's very detrimental and dangerous and harmful
Speaker 1: when it comes to UM dealing with guilt and with Shane,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of a lot of tips out there. UM.
Speaker 1: It really seems to be self reflective, trying to really
Speaker 1: be honest with what you have control over what you
Speaker 1: didn't impact UM and if it is something that you
Speaker 1: is debilitating, than getting help, whether whether that's through therapy
Speaker 1: if you can afford that, if that's an option for you,
Speaker 1: or just finding someone that you trust or a support
Speaker 1: group to kind of talk it out right. And also
Speaker 1: understand that with guilt and shame, which also is correlated
Speaker 1: with depression, that some of this can be chemical. Some
Speaker 1: of this can be a mental health thing that you
Speaker 1: need to take care of yourself. And that's okay too,
Speaker 1: because I think I I struggle with it. When I'm
Speaker 1: in my darkest, I I feel more shame and more guilt,
Speaker 1: and it's overwhelming to be in that darkness and it's
Speaker 1: harder to realize in that moment this is also chemical,
Speaker 1: this is also seasonal, all of those things. So in
Speaker 1: understanding and how to deal with that is to kind
Speaker 1: of listen to your body as well as Yes, Cape
Speaker 1: made sure like if you have people, people groups, if
Speaker 1: you're using medication and that appropriately prescribed to you, do
Speaker 1: that all of those things are really important as well
Speaker 1: to not fall under that heavy, heavy, heavy burden of
Speaker 1: guilt and shame. Yes, um, And I was I was
Speaker 1: trying to think about why I what it is I
Speaker 1: see and why why are we so quick to blame women,
Speaker 1: And I think it's I think we've just been subjugated
Speaker 1: two like abuse and marginalization for so long, but also
Speaker 1: just conditioning to be nice, um and to make everyone
Speaker 1: comfortable and happy. Um. And when that those things don't happen,
Speaker 1: or when we are being the subjects of abuse or
Speaker 1: or whatever, we've looked inward to find a reason why
Speaker 1: it must be something, especially when we witness it among
Speaker 1: a lot of women mate. Um. Yeah, and we've been
Speaker 1: classified as less the men. And that's something I certainly
Speaker 1: struggled with as a kid, because I just had this
Speaker 1: sense of like I am less than and um, we
Speaker 1: are to blame for their wrongdoings and for not meeting
Speaker 1: the impossibly high standards that we place on girls and women.
Speaker 1: And as a society, admitting that things like rape culture
Speaker 1: or fal it's something that we need to to change
Speaker 1: to work on instead of pointing to a woman's outfit choice, Um,
Speaker 1: that requires a lot more work if we admit that
Speaker 1: we have a problem and it's structural and huge and
Speaker 1: we have to change it. Um. And people, as we know,
Speaker 1: are afraid of change, especially those who are benefiting from
Speaker 1: that already. Yes, exactly, so those are our thoughts on shame, blame, guilt.
Speaker 1: Turns out there's a lot of thoughts around that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, and we would love to hear your thoughts listeners,
Speaker 1: and you can email us those thoughts at Stuff Media,
Speaker 1: mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at stuff I Never Told You or
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to
Speaker 1: our suproducer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening
Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You his protection of iHeart Radios
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