Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, the production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome
Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry.
Speaker 1: This is part two of our two part podcast on
Speaker 1: Lord Elgin and the Parthenon Marbles. I really recommend listening
Speaker 1: to part one. That's the whole story of of how
Speaker 1: he got these marbles in the first place. Very briefly,
Speaker 1: in that episode, we talked about how he became the
Speaker 1: British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, how he decided to
Speaker 1: document classical Greek ark and architecture while he was there,
Speaker 1: and how that project morphed to include removing the artwork
Speaker 1: rather than just drawing it and making casts and molds
Speaker 1: of it. These are often called the Parthenon Marbles, although
Speaker 1: the pieces that are involved were not just from the Parthenon,
Speaker 1: they were also from other parts of the Acropolis and
Speaker 1: Athens and elsewhere in Greece. So today we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about how all of that played out, and how
Speaker 1: these sculptures became part of the collection of the British Museum,
Speaker 1: and why there's still controversy about this that has continued
Speaker 1: until today. Just a quick recap on sort of the
Speaker 1: cast of characters people involved. At this point we have
Speaker 1: Thomas Bruce, the seventh Earl of Elgin and eleven of Kincarten.
Speaker 1: He was the British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire and
Speaker 1: was stationed in Constantinople. Giovanni Batista Lucieri was a landscape
Speaker 1: painter from Naples who was recruited to oversee a team
Speaker 1: of architects, artists, mold makers and others in a project
Speaker 1: that was originally meant to document classical Greek art and architecture.
Speaker 1: The Reverend Philip Hunt was an Anglican priest and the
Speaker 1: chaplain to the British embassy in Constantinople. He was appointed
Speaker 1: as Lord Elgin's temporary secretary to act on his behalf
Speaker 1: in Athens. And then in Athens, the team mostly interacted
Speaker 1: with people who occupied two different government positions. The exact
Speaker 1: people in those positions varied over time. They included the Voivode,
Speaker 1: who was the governor of Athens, and the Dizdar, who
Speaker 1: was the military governor with authority over the acropolis itself.
Speaker 1: Elgin asked for permission to return to England in late
Speaker 1: eighteen o two. He had taken this position in part
Speaker 1: because he thought that the climate and warm sea bathing
Speaker 1: available in Constantinople would be good for his health, and
Speaker 1: instead I had the opposite effect. In addition to not
Speaker 1: bringing about any improvement in the chronic illnesses that had
Speaker 1: motivated him to go, he had developed some kind of
Speaker 1: wasting condition that eventually caused him to lose the lower
Speaker 1: half of his nose. He was also just tired of
Speaker 1: a Constantinople and he wanted to go home, and he
Speaker 1: was given permission to depart in January of eighteen oh three.
Speaker 1: He seems to have understood that future Ottoman administrations might
Speaker 1: not look kindly on the removal of so much material
Speaker 1: from the Parthenon and elsewhere at the Acropolis, and he
Speaker 1: also worried about what that might mean for the Ottoman
Speaker 1: officials he had worked with while he was an Athens.
Speaker 1: So before he left, Elgin got ds from Ottoman officials
Speaker 1: saying that they had approved of the actions made by
Speaker 1: the Voivode and the dISTAR, and he left those letters
Speaker 1: with those two men as protection in case politics shifted.
Speaker 1: Later on, as Elian was preparing to leave Constantinople, France
Speaker 1: was also withdrawing from Egypt, and it seemed likely that
Speaker 1: peace would soon be negotiated between France and the Ottoman Empire.
Speaker 1: This meant that the Ottoman Empire had way less need
Speaker 1: of the British as allies, which gave Ottoman authorities less
Speaker 1: incentive to cooperate with Britain's plans. It also meant that
Speaker 1: the British Navy ships that Elgin had counted on to
Speaker 1: take all of this marble back to England were now
Speaker 1: occupied with the withdrawal of British troops from Egypt. Even
Speaker 1: though Elgin's project wasn't an official government effort, everyone had
Speaker 1: taken for granted that the British Navy would help get
Speaker 1: all of this material back to England. Yeah. This this
Speaker 1: shift in relationships among Britain, France, and the Ottoman Empire
Speaker 1: went so far as the fact that, like the British
Speaker 1: Embassy was being shut down and in Stantinople, when it
Speaker 1: was established in Constantinople, it was in a former French embassy.
Speaker 1: Like there was a lot of of international back and
Speaker 1: forth with this, on top of the lack of availability
Speaker 1: of British Navy ships moving a whole bunch of marble statues, reliefs,
Speaker 1: architectural elements, and other work by sea is just an
Speaker 1: inherently difficult task. I mean it would be difficult overland also,
Speaker 1: But most of the captains that Elgin and his team
Speaker 1: talked to trying to get all this stuff to England
Speaker 1: were not at all eager to weigh their ships down
Speaker 1: with such heavy cargo, which would make the ship a
Speaker 1: lot more likely to wreck in bad weather. So Elgin
Speaker 1: used his own ship, the Mentor, for a lot of
Speaker 1: this transport. The Mentor successfully made a round trip from
Speaker 1: Athens in late eighteen o one. Then in September of
Speaker 1: eighteen o two, two days after setting sail from Athens,
Speaker 1: it sank in a storm off the coast of Cithera.
Speaker 1: And when it sank, the Mentor was carrying seventeen cases
Speaker 1: of classical Greek sculpture, including fourteen pieces of the parts
Speaker 1: non freeze and four pieces of the freeze from the
Speaker 1: Temple of Athena Nike. Various other pieces were on board
Speaker 1: as well, although the largest heaviest pieces were still in Athens.
Speaker 1: With the help of passing ships and sponge divers who
Speaker 1: had been recruited from islands in the agency. Four of
Speaker 1: the seventeen cases were salvaged from the shipwreck pretty quickly. Then,
Speaker 1: in November of eighteen o two, plans were made to
Speaker 1: try to raise the Mentor from the sea floor. Two
Speaker 1: ships were supposed to work together to do this, but
Speaker 1: due to a miscommunication, one of them didn't arrive, so
Speaker 1: the HMS Lave Victorious tried to do it alone. The
Speaker 1: cable that they were using to do this snapped, The
Speaker 1: mentor sank back down to the sea floor, and soon
Speaker 1: afterwards salvage operations had to be suspended for the winter.
Speaker 1: It turned out that the crew of the other ship
Speaker 1: had incorrectly heard that the Mentor was in pieces and
Speaker 1: was impossible to raise, so they thought that they weren't
Speaker 1: needed after all. Although that wasn't true in November of
Speaker 1: eighteen o two, it was true by this ring of
Speaker 1: eighteen o three, after it had sat there underwater in
Speaker 1: months of winter storms. By that point, Elgin was on
Speaker 1: his way home, having left Constantinople on January sixteenth of
Speaker 1: eighteen o three. When he left, England and France were
Speaker 1: not at war, peace had been established. He decided to
Speaker 1: make part of the journey home over land through Italy
Speaker 1: and France. Part of his motivation here was to try
Speaker 1: to avoid the seasickness that had really just plagued his
Speaker 1: wife on their first journey to get to Constantinople in
Speaker 1: the first place. But he also wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: artisans in Rome about restoring the statues that he was
Speaker 1: removing from Athens. At the time, it was really common
Speaker 1: for restorers to replace broken and missing parts of things
Speaker 1: like classical statues, so like if the arm had broken off,
Speaker 1: they would make a new arm for it, right. And
Speaker 1: you will still see in some museums some pieces where
Speaker 1: they will point out, yeah, hey, that's not the same stone,
Speaker 1: that's a repaired piece. Right. We wouldn't do that if
Speaker 1: we had recovered this piece today. Um. But then England
Speaker 1: declared war on France again on eighteen o three, which
Speaker 1: is often marked as the start of the Napoleonic Wars.
Speaker 1: Elgin and his wife were in French territory and they
Speaker 1: became prisoners of war. Their children were allowed to continue
Speaker 1: home to Britain and they had some degree of freedom,
Speaker 1: but Elgin and his wife were not permitted to leave France. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: the salvage operations at the wreck of the mentor were ongoing,
Speaker 1: with five cases brought up in eighteen o three. These
Speaker 1: cases were partially buried on the beach and covered with
Speaker 1: things like seaweed and stones to try to protect them
Speaker 1: from the wind and the water until a ship could
Speaker 1: be dispatched to pick them up. Divers brought up the
Speaker 1: remaining cases in eighteen o four, and finally Admiral Nelson
Speaker 1: ordered a ship to the area to retrieve them all.
Speaker 1: Elgin later estimated that the salvage effort cost him about
Speaker 1: five thousand pounds, but it didn't recover everything from the ship.
Speaker 1: He was really focused on those seven team cases of sculptures.
Speaker 1: Divers have continued to bring up other items in the
Speaker 1: century since then, with dives in and Steen bringing up
Speaker 1: things like ancient amphora, coins, jewelry, and statues. In August
Speaker 1: and September of archaeologists from Greece's effort for underwater antiquities
Speaker 1: brought up other items, including jewelry, cookware, and even a
Speaker 1: prosthetic leg. Also still ongoing was lucy Aries work around
Speaker 1: the Parthenon. He continued to work for years after this,
Speaker 1: Long after Elgin had gone back home, he kept collecting
Speaker 1: and documenting various antiquities. In eighteen o four, France convinced
Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire to rescind their earlier firmans, and in
Speaker 1: October of eighteen o five, the Empire implemented a total
Speaker 1: ban on removing antiquities from Greece, and from that point
Speaker 1: Lucy Area had to confine his work to Elgin too,
Speaker 1: drawing and painting and guarding the statues that Elgin had
Speaker 1: already collected that had not been taken to Britain yet.
Speaker 1: While Elgin was being detained in France, the British captured
Speaker 1: a French ship that had been carrying Greek sculptures and
Speaker 1: other pieces that had been collected by Schwizoi Guffier, who
Speaker 1: we mentioned in Part one. British authorities didn't think the
Speaker 1: cargo was important enough to worry about, so it remained
Speaker 1: in a British customs house until Elgin eventually found it
Speaker 1: there years later. At various points between eighteen o three
Speaker 1: and eighteen o six, elgin situation went beyond just not
Speaker 1: being able to leave France. He was actually imprisoned. His
Speaker 1: wife was allowed to leave in eighteen o five after
Speaker 1: the death of one of their sons. Basically let her
Speaker 1: go home for humanitarian reasons. Elgin finally arrived home in
Speaker 1: June of eighteen o six, after signing a par role
Speaker 1: that promised the French government that he would go back
Speaker 1: to France at any time they demanded. That parole was
Speaker 1: in place until Napoleon abdicated in eighteen fourteen. We will
Speaker 1: get to what happened after Elgin finally got home after
Speaker 1: we first paused for a little sponsor break. Elgin's life
Speaker 1: changed dramatically after his return to England. As we noted
Speaker 1: in part one earlier in his career, he was thought
Speaker 1: of as a pretty promising young man, but after being
Speaker 1: detained in France, he could not get any kind of
Speaker 1: appointment that would be typical for a man of his station.
Speaker 1: The idea that he might be called back to France
Speaker 1: at any moment and would have no choice other than
Speaker 1: to go was just too big of a risk for
Speaker 1: anyone to take on him. He also went through a
Speaker 1: really embarrassing divorce when he returned from France. His wife
Speaker 1: said that she had been so traumatized and injured by
Speaker 1: the birth of their fifth child that she could not
Speaker 1: risk becoming pregnant again, and she ended their physical relationship. However,
Speaker 1: she was also having an affair, and when Elgin learned
Speaker 1: about this, he filed a civil action against her in England,
Speaker 1: and he filed for divorce in Scotland, where it was
Speaker 1: easier to get a divorce on the grounds of adultery.
Speaker 1: Elgin was worded ten thousand pounds in the civil suit,
Speaker 1: but his divorce trial lad to just a lengthy and
Speaker 1: scandalous public testimony about his wife's infidelity, including statements she
Speaker 1: had made about how her attraction to him had started
Speaker 1: to wane after the loss of his nose. There's also
Speaker 1: been a lot of speculation about exactly what caused Elgin's
Speaker 1: illnesses and his disfigurement, and various people have concluded that
Speaker 1: it was syphilis, which of course would have carried even
Speaker 1: more stigma than than it does today. Yeah, basically, he
Speaker 1: had all of his personal business just spilled out into
Speaker 1: the public. Elgin's divorce also meant that he would no
Speaker 1: longer be coming into his wife's fortune, and that was
Speaker 1: something that he had been counting on and had been
Speaker 1: a factor in his financial decision making up to that point.
Speaker 1: He also lost his seat in Parliament, and his health
Speaker 1: made it impossible for him to return to active duty
Speaker 1: with the military. Elgin's massive debts and lack of income
Speaker 1: trickled down to people who had been working for him,
Speaker 1: who then lost their incomes as well. To add insult
Speaker 1: to injury, many of Elgin's peers didn't think that he
Speaker 1: was actually broke. They assumed that he had gotten rich
Speaker 1: off bribes while working in Constantinople and that he was
Speaker 1: just being coy about it. At this point, all those
Speaker 1: antiquities that Elgin had removed from sites in Athens and
Speaker 1: elsewhere in Greece were scattered around various places, some of
Speaker 1: it still in Greece waiting transport to England. In terms
Speaker 1: of what was in England, a lot of it was
Speaker 1: being stored in various friends homes, and many of them
Speaker 1: were deeply annoyed that there were these giant cases of
Speaker 1: marbles taking up space in their houses. So Elgin rented
Speaker 1: a large home with a garden, and he had a
Speaker 1: shed built to house all of this artwork. He collected
Speaker 1: all the marbles that had arrived from Greece and arranged
Speaker 1: them in a way that he thought was aesthetically pleasing
Speaker 1: rather than one that had a historical or architectural meaning
Speaker 1: to it. He did not wind up having the sculptures
Speaker 1: restored in Italy because he just did not have the
Speaker 1: money to do it. He finished us in eighteen o
Speaker 1: seven and he opened his little shed for viewings by
Speaker 1: artists and architects, and he immediately got a ton of
Speaker 1: requests from artists that wanted to study and draw what
Speaker 1: he had brought back to Britain. He had to appoint
Speaker 1: a curator and ration access to the shed, and people
Speaker 1: also praised the idea that he had saved all this
Speaker 1: artwork from destruction. But he did also have some detractors,
Speaker 1: especially after classical scholar pay Night went on a campaign
Speaker 1: to tell people that the sculptures weren't from the Greek
Speaker 1: Golden Age at all, but were in fact much later
Speaker 1: and far inferior Roman works. That was not true, but
Speaker 1: it fueled various controversies. The Anglo Turkish War started in
Speaker 1: eighteen o seven and that started a huge scramble for
Speaker 1: Elegant to try to get the last of those sculptures
Speaker 1: that were waiting for him in Athens out of Athens.
Speaker 1: That effort to remove the last sculptures to Britain lasted
Speaker 1: beyond the end of the Anglo Turkish War in eighteen
Speaker 1: o nine, the last shipments from Athens to England and
Speaker 1: did not happen until eighteen twelve. Meanwhile, in eighteen ten,
Speaker 1: Elgin remarried and it became clear to him that he
Speaker 1: needed to do something to try to get himself out
Speaker 1: of debt. His income from his family property wasn't anywhere
Speaker 1: near enough to pay it off. He also had four
Speaker 1: surviving children from his first marriage, and he expected to
Speaker 1: have more kids with his second wife, and he needed
Speaker 1: a way to support them all and ideally not leave
Speaker 1: them all in debt after his death. So he decided
Speaker 1: to sell the sculptures that he had brought back from Greece,
Speaker 1: advocating for the Nation of Britain to buy them. To
Speaker 1: that end, he anonymously published a memorandum on the subject
Speaker 1: of the Earl of Elgin's pursuits in Greece. He published
Speaker 1: several editions of that over the next few years. The
Speaker 1: British government heard his proposition, they made him an offer
Speaker 1: of thirty thousand pounds. This was significantly less money than
Speaker 1: he had spent getting the marbles and salvaging them from
Speaker 1: the wreck of the Mentor and so he turned it down. Then,
Speaker 1: in eighteen eleven, George Gordon, Lord Byron, visited the Acropolis
Speaker 1: in Athens. Lucieri, who was still working for Elgin, gave
Speaker 1: Lord Byron a tour, and later when Byron sailed to Malta,
Speaker 1: it was on Elgin's ship. Byron seems to have warned
Speaker 1: Elgin that he wasn't happy with what he saw and
Speaker 1: experienced regarding Elgin's work in Athens, but Elgan either did
Speaker 1: not take him seriously or just didn't know what to
Speaker 1: do about it. Byron also was not nearly as famous
Speaker 1: at this point as he was about to be, so
Speaker 1: Elgin may not have thought any of this was a
Speaker 1: big deal. Simultaneously, Elgin was advocating for Britain to buy
Speaker 1: the sculptures and other marbles. He was also looking for
Speaker 1: somewhere else to house them, because with all of his
Speaker 1: debts he could not afford to keep renting a separate
Speaker 1: home for that purpose. With the shed to display all
Speaker 1: the marbles in the Duke of Devonshire offered to store
Speaker 1: them at his home, which was Burlington House. There wasn't
Speaker 1: really enough room for all the sculptures indoors there, though,
Speaker 1: so some of them were left out in the yard,
Speaker 1: and that included the last shipments that arrived from Athens
Speaker 1: in twelve. In March of that year, Byron published a
Speaker 1: long poem called Child Harold's Pilgrimage, and with this poem
Speaker 1: his career suddenly took off. The first printing of Child
Speaker 1: Harold sold out in just a few days. Byron had
Speaker 1: previously written several critiques of various antiquarians, including Elgin specifically,
Speaker 1: and Child Harold included this passage along with prose notes
Speaker 1: that specifically named Elgin. Here's what this passage said, among
Speaker 1: others in the work, dull is the eye that will
Speaker 1: not weep to see thy walls defaced, thy moldering shrines
Speaker 1: removed by British hands, which it had best behooved to
Speaker 1: guard those relics near to be restored. Cursed be the
Speaker 1: hour when from their aisle they roved and once again
Speaker 1: thy hapless bosom gourd and snatched thy shrinking gods to
Speaker 1: northern climbs of hoard. Lord Byron is one of those
Speaker 1: people that I would not have ever wanted to be
Speaker 1: on his bad side and have him rite nasty verse
Speaker 1: about me, because he could be vicious uh. In addition
Speaker 1: to launching Byron to fame, this poem brought Elgin's actions
Speaker 1: in Athens, as well as the plight of the Greek
Speaker 1: people under Ottoman rule, into the public spotlight, and it
Speaker 1: stoked a lot of debate. At one point, Edward Daniel
Speaker 1: Clark told Byron about his experience seeing the marbles cut
Speaker 1: down and people weeping, which Byron worked into the notes
Speaker 1: of future editions of this poem. Clark had also published
Speaker 1: his own thoughts on this in his travels in various
Speaker 1: countries of Europe, Asia, and Africa. This was a massive,
Speaker 1: multi volume work that heavily criticized the removal of the
Speaker 1: sculptures from the Parthenon, and it included some selections from
Speaker 1: Child Harold in later additions. I should also be noted
Speaker 1: that Clark came home with some antiquities from his travel
Speaker 1: in Greece as well, just not nearly to the extent
Speaker 1: of what Elgin had done. Of course, this controversy folded
Speaker 1: into the question of whether Britain might buy the sculptures,
Speaker 1: which Elgin was still trying to pursue after turning down
Speaker 1: that initial offer of thirty thousand pounds, but on May
Speaker 1: eleventh of eighteen twelve, John Bellingham assassinated British Prime Minister
Speaker 1: Spencer Perceval over a personal grievance with the government. That
Speaker 1: assassination took place in the lobby of the House of Commons,
Speaker 1: and of course the question of what to do with
Speaker 1: the Parthenon Marbles was tabled in the aftermath, along with
Speaker 1: a whole lot of other issues. The War of eighteen
Speaker 1: twelve also started in June of that year. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: was there was a lot going on, and as all
Speaker 1: of that was happening in Britain, attitudes were shifting in Greece.
Speaker 1: A sense of Greek nationalism and Greek national identity was
Speaker 1: starting to grow there, including a renewal of the Greek
Speaker 1: language and a movement for Greek independence from the Ottoman Empire.
Speaker 1: In eighteen fifteen, Napoleon returned from exile and the Duke
Speaker 1: of Devonshire sold Burlington House. Its new owners plan to
Speaker 1: totally rebuild the estate, which made Elgan's need to sell
Speaker 1: the sculptures even more urgent. The Brite Museum arranged for
Speaker 1: a committee to evaluate the issue, although that committee included
Speaker 1: pay Night and other people who either did not care
Speaker 1: for Elgin or thought the sculptures he'd acquired were overrated.
Speaker 1: Elgin started to fear that he might be offered even
Speaker 1: less than what he had turned down initially. On June
Speaker 1: fifteenth of eighteen fifteen, Elgin presented a petition to the
Speaker 1: House of Commons, which the House of Commons debated but
Speaker 1: didn't take any action on. Then just days later, on
Speaker 1: June eighteenth, Napoleon was defeated at the Battle of Waterloo.
Speaker 1: At that point, many of the nations that France had
Speaker 1: previously invaded demanded their artwork and artifacts and other national
Speaker 1: treasures back from the Louver. Although Elgin's acquisitions from Athens
Speaker 1: weren't part of this, they were part of this conversation,
Speaker 1: especially as at least five thousand pieces of artwork were
Speaker 1: returned from France to their nations of origin. And then
Speaker 1: came yet another source of public allegations against Elgin, this
Speaker 1: time from the Reverend R. Twiddel to a l published
Speaker 1: a book about his late brother John, including an appendix
Speaker 1: detailing all kinds of allegations against both Elgin and Philip Hunt.
Speaker 1: It is kind of a convoluted story, but the Reverend
Speaker 1: Twitter was apparently incensed over what he saw as Elgin's
Speaker 1: mishandling of his late brother's papers, something that John Spencer Smith,
Speaker 1: who we mentioned in Part one, was connected to and
Speaker 1: egged him on about. So Elgin denied any wrongdoing in
Speaker 1: all this, but it turned into kind of a scandal
Speaker 1: like we would describe it today as a flame war.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of back and forth publishing of letters,
Speaker 1: and various people pointed out how Elgin's relationships with pretty
Speaker 1: much everyone he had ever worked with, aside from Lucieri
Speaker 1: he was still employing in Athens, those relationships had all
Speaker 1: totally deteriorated. When some of John Twiddel's drawings were found
Speaker 1: at the home of Elgin's ex father in law, people
Speaker 1: took it as evidence that, on top of everything else,
Speaker 1: Elgin had lied about this whole situation. In February of
Speaker 1: eighteen sixteen, Elgin put forth another petition before the House
Speaker 1: of Commons, once again proposing that the British government by
Speaker 1: the marbles. It also requested that they investigate how he
Speaker 1: had gotten them in the first place, to try to
Speaker 1: put an end to all of the suspicion. This petition
Speaker 1: was debated on February hearings before a select committee began
Speaker 1: on February nine. When they were questioned, Elgin, Hunt and
Speaker 1: a lot of the other people who were involved talked
Speaker 1: about a lot of the points that we've already gone over.
Speaker 1: We read from some of their stuff in part one.
Speaker 1: They talked about how Elgin wanted to document the masterpieces
Speaker 1: of ancient Greece for the edification of artists and architects
Speaker 1: in Britain, and that he had asked for the government
Speaker 1: to fund this but had ultimately paid for it himself,
Speaker 1: and that when he saw the damaged the Acropolis that
Speaker 1: had already happened, he wanted to save as much artwork
Speaker 1: there as he could. He estimated his total expenses, including
Speaker 1: expenses after the marbles had been removed to Britain, as
Speaker 1: just shy of seventy five thousand pounds. There was also
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about the ferments that we talked
Speaker 1: about earlier, and about the persuasion that had been part
Speaker 1: of how Ottoman authorities interpreted them. Artists were also questioned
Speaker 1: about the value of these marbles, both artistic value and
Speaker 1: monetary value. As part of that pain Night suggested that
Speaker 1: they were worth thousand pounds. These hearings went on for
Speaker 1: two weeks. When the committee delivered its report, it suggested
Speaker 1: that Elgin had done what he did legally, that he
Speaker 1: did not abuse his power to do so, that he
Speaker 1: hadn't damaged the monuments needlessly, and that he hadn't done
Speaker 1: what he did for personal gain. The report also spoke
Speaker 1: to the benefit that the marbles could bring to the
Speaker 1: arts in Britain, and the words of the report quote,
Speaker 1: no country can be better adapted than our own to
Speaker 1: afford an honorable asylum to these monuments of the School
Speaker 1: of Phidias and the Administration of Pericles. The recommended offer
Speaker 1: price for the sculptures was thirty five thousand pounds. This
Speaker 1: was much less than Elgin had said that he spent
Speaker 1: on this whole endeavor, but it was also five thousand
Speaker 1: pounds more than the previous offer, so he kind of
Speaker 1: felt like he had no other choice at this point
Speaker 1: and he accepted. Then Parliament had to vote on all
Speaker 1: this to make an official in which they did after
Speaker 1: debating on June seventh of eighteen sixteen. They voted to
Speaker 1: purchase the marbles from Elgin for thirty five thousand pounds,
Speaker 1: with eight two votes four and eighty against. An Act
Speaker 1: of Parliament then gave the nation ownership of the marbles,
Speaker 1: which were formerly known as the Elgin Marbles, and it
Speaker 1: also made Elgin and his heirs trustees of the British Museum.
Speaker 1: That payment of thirty five thousand pounds immediately went to
Speaker 1: Elgin's creditors, still leaving him in debt. In spite of that,
Speaker 1: he kept employing Lucieri for as long as he could,
Speaker 1: saying that he felt sorry for him. For his part,
Speaker 1: Lucieri believed he could have become a really famous artist
Speaker 1: if he hadn't started working for Elgin. He died in
Speaker 1: eighteen one. All Elgin did eventually returned to Parliament as
Speaker 1: a representative peer for Scotland. His career never really recovered
Speaker 1: from all of this. He kept trying to get a
Speaker 1: British peerage, hoping that it would help him get out
Speaker 1: of debt, but that never happened and he died on
Speaker 1: November fourteenth of eighteen forty one. But the story of
Speaker 1: the marbles continues, and we'll get back to them and
Speaker 1: how the controversy around them has also continued after we
Speaker 1: have one more sponsor break. By January of eighteen seventeen,
Speaker 1: the collection of sculptures, which were by then officially known
Speaker 1: as the Elgin Marbles, was on public view in a
Speaker 1: temporary space in the British Museum. They immediately became a
Speaker 1: huge draw. Although there were people still in Britain, Greece
Speaker 1: and elsewhere who vocally protested that they should not have
Speaker 1: been removed from Greece in the first place, these sculptures
Speaker 1: and architectural elements were credited with doing exactly what Elgin
Speaker 1: had hoped they would, contributing to the edge of cation
Speaker 1: of British artists and architects and bringing a renewed focus
Speaker 1: on art and architecture in Britain. The marbles themselves became
Speaker 1: part of the British national identity. They also inspired other
Speaker 1: works of art, including poetry by John Keats, and contributed
Speaker 1: to an ongoing trend of Greek Revival architecture, including the
Speaker 1: main entrance of the British Museum. The British Museum also
Speaker 1: started providing molds and casts of the marbles for other
Speaker 1: museums and other facilities to use. Over time, a lot
Speaker 1: of these casts were made, and eventually the museum made
Speaker 1: a set of casts like a master set, specifically for
Speaker 1: the purpose of making molds out of them, but they
Speaker 1: were making so many molds that eventually those casts had
Speaker 1: become too worn down to make good molds anymore. They
Speaker 1: would need to make the cast over again. In eighteen
Speaker 1: twenty one, the Greek War of Independence began. It's also
Speaker 1: called the Greek Revolution, and this, combined with the rising
Speaker 1: sense of Greek national identity that we mentioned earlier, led
Speaker 1: to increasing calls for Britain to return the parson on Nobles.
Speaker 1: These calls continued after Greece was formally declared an independent
Speaker 1: nation under the protection of Britain, France, and Russia in
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty three. Immediately this newly independent nation of Greece
Speaker 1: started focusing on the return of its cultural, artistic, and
Speaker 1: architectural heritage from other countries. To be clear, Greece at
Speaker 1: this point was culturally and ethnically diverse. It's not really
Speaker 1: clear how many people living there could have traced their
Speaker 1: lineage all the way back to Greek antiquity. And there's
Speaker 1: really a whole other discussion that could be had about
Speaker 1: the rise of this Greek national identity and what that
Speaker 1: meant for racial and ethnic minorities who were living there. Nevertheless,
Speaker 1: this Nation of Greece, right from its founding, saw classical
Speaker 1: Greece in general, and the Acropolis and the Parthenon specifically
Speaker 1: as a really important part of its identity. In March
Speaker 1: of eighteen thirty five, the Acropolis was declared a national
Speaker 1: monument and the Nation of Greece put an end to
Speaker 1: its use as a military facility for the first time
Speaker 1: in probably centuries. Greece also banned the export of its antiquities,
Speaker 1: although it's still had trouble stopping vandalism and looting, most
Speaker 1: of which was done by foreign visitors. Dad there's there
Speaker 1: was an article that came out um right before the
Speaker 1: end of the year that was basically about how there
Speaker 1: was more damage done to these monuments that were still
Speaker 1: in Greece in the nineteenth century then there has been
Speaker 1: in the centuries since then through things like air pollution.
Speaker 1: There's is a lot of vandalism and looting and theft.
Speaker 1: Also in eighteen thirty five, the British Museum offered Greece
Speaker 1: a set of casts of the Parthenon marbles. Greece asked
Speaker 1: for the originals and also embarked on a project to
Speaker 1: restore the Parthenon that year, as well as repairing and
Speaker 1: re erecting elements that had been knocked down in that
Speaker 1: sixteen eighty seven explosion, along with other damage. In eighteen
Speaker 1: thirty two, the Elgin Room, now called Room seventeen, opened
Speaker 1: on the British Museum's west side as a home for
Speaker 1: the Elgin Marbles. Another gallery, named for its financier art
Speaker 1: dealers Shore Joseph Duvine, was built for that purpose in
Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, and while that gallery was being built,
Speaker 1: Duvine employed people to clean the Parthenon marbles and make
Speaker 1: them look whiter, under the incorrect idea that he was
Speaker 1: restoring them to their proper appearance without the oversight of
Speaker 1: museum staff and without following the museum's established cleaning procedures. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're kind of fast forwarding roughly a hundred years here,
Speaker 1: but during that whole time, people in Greece were still
Speaker 1: advocating for the return of the marbles. That didn't stop
Speaker 1: in the interim. So the museum had used various cleaning
Speaker 1: techniques over the years, and by the early twentieth century,
Speaker 1: the basic process was to periodically dust the pieces off,
Speaker 1: to occasionally wash them with distilled water and a neutral
Speaker 1: soap very gently. But the people that Duvine and ployd
Speaker 1: we're using metal tools and carborundum, which is an abrasive
Speaker 1: to scrub and scrape away the exterior of these pieces,
Speaker 1: which at that point was kind of a brownish or
Speaker 1: a honey color. Of course, initially we know that these
Speaker 1: sculptures were painted, like the paint is not visible to
Speaker 1: the naked eye at this point, but like after there's there,
Speaker 1: you know, two thousand years of existence, they had taken
Speaker 1: on this this different coloring. And when this cleaning in
Speaker 1: quotation marks was discovered, it happened because a member of
Speaker 1: the museum staff walked into a room and saw that
Speaker 1: in the works on three pieces. In the investigation that
Speaker 1: followed this discovery, the museum learned that this whole incorrect
Speaker 1: cleaning procedure had been going on for at least a
Speaker 1: year and a half in nineteen thirty seven and ninety eight.
Speaker 1: This was a massive oversight, and it is not entirely
Speaker 1: clear still exactly how it happened, but at least some
Speaker 1: of the people that Duvine had hired had been given
Speaker 1: keys to the museum. That was not a good security procedure.
Speaker 1: So the museum's investigation was finished in December of night,
Speaker 1: and this new exhibit was supposed to open the following May.
Speaker 1: And the words of Frederick Price, who was then the
Speaker 1: keeper of Greek and Roman antiquities at the museum, from
Speaker 1: this report quote the surface of the sculptures, showing the
Speaker 1: evidences of two thousand years of exposure to the climate
Speaker 1: of Greece, was a document of the utmost importance. There
Speaker 1: being no possible doubt about the history of the Parthenon sculptures,
Speaker 1: they came to the museum as authentic masterpieces of Greek
Speaker 1: work of the fifth century BC, and for purposes of
Speaker 1: study in comparison, they are of inestimable value. The damage
Speaker 1: which has been caused is obvious and cannot be exaggerated.
Speaker 1: The exact steps that the museum took next were not recorded,
Speaker 1: but the Standing Committee's minutes record some kind of remedial solution.
Speaker 1: Apparently coding the marbles was something that was meant to
Speaker 1: replicate their earlier color in terms of the ramifications. For
Speaker 1: the museum staff, multiple people who were involved with all
Speaker 1: of this oversight were given early retirement. One man, assistant keeper,
Speaker 1: Roger Hanks, became something of a scapegoat over it. He
Speaker 1: was essentially to be demoted, but he was also told
Speaker 1: that it quote would not be to his disadvantage if
Speaker 1: he resigned, so he did. Although the museum tried to
Speaker 1: handle all of this quietly, rumors quickly spread that something
Speaker 1: had happened to the marbles, and this bloomed into a
Speaker 1: massive media scandal. The museum's public statements from the nineteen
Speaker 1: thirties generally tried to downplay things, explaining what the authorized
Speaker 1: cleaning methods were without really acknowledging the widespread damaging and
Speaker 1: unauthorized cleaning that had also gone on. But not long
Speaker 1: after the Divine Gallery opened, World War Two started in
Speaker 1: Europe and people became more focused on making sure the
Speaker 1: sculptures weren't damaged in air raids. The gallery itself was
Speaker 1: badly damaged by bombs during the war, but the sculptures
Speaker 1: were not affected. There is a lot more about all
Speaker 1: of the story in Lord Elgin and the Marbles, which
Speaker 1: is a book by WILLIAMS. St Clair published by Oxford
Speaker 1: University Press, specifically the third edition, which came up in
Speaker 1: St Clair was the first person to go through and
Speaker 1: document in print what happened in nineteen seven and ninety eight,
Speaker 1: and how the museum presented it to the public. St
Speaker 1: Clair is extremely critical of the museum's actions, interpreting their
Speaker 1: response as an ongoing cover up. The British Museum has
Speaker 1: framed it more as a mistake, acknowledging that the work
Speaker 1: was an overcleaning and characterizing the response to the public
Speaker 1: at the time as a serious misstep, but denying that
Speaker 1: there was any sort of long term cover up involved
Speaker 1: since then. In recent years, when Greece has renewed its
Speaker 1: calls for the return of the Marble's, Brittain has refused,
Speaker 1: but in other points in history Britain has made overtures
Speaker 1: that they might actually give them back. During World War Two,
Speaker 1: Britain started drafting a plan to return the Marbles to Greece,
Speaker 1: hoping it would inspire Greek resistance against an invasion by
Speaker 1: Germany or Italy. In the nineteen fifties, during the Cyprus Emergency,
Speaker 1: Britain suggested that it might return the Marbles if Greece
Speaker 1: would end its support of a guerrilla campaign against Cyprus's
Speaker 1: British colonial government. In more recent years, Neil Kennock, who
Speaker 1: was then the leader of Britain's Labor Party promised that
Speaker 1: the Marbles would be returned to Greece in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 1: but when the Labor government actually took power the following year,
Speaker 1: they were not. At various points, legislation has been introduced
Speaker 1: in Parliament to return the Marbles to Greece, but it
Speaker 1: has never really gone anywhere. As Britain was nodding to
Speaker 1: the idea of returning the Marbles in the nineteen forties
Speaker 1: and nineteen fifties, some of the reinforcement work that had
Speaker 1: gone on at the Parthenon in the years after Greek
Speaker 1: independence started to deteriorate. Iron had been used in some
Speaker 1: of the supports, which had shifted and rested over time.
Speaker 1: Greece also industrialized very quickly into the nineteen sixties, leading
Speaker 1: to issues with air pollution and acid rain. A major
Speaker 1: earthquake also struck Athens in n one, and all of
Speaker 1: this became arguments in part for why Britain should not
Speaker 1: return the Marbles. But at the same time there were
Speaker 1: ongoing calls that Britain should return them, especially after the
Speaker 1: passage of UNESCO's Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and
Speaker 1: Preventing the illicit import, export and transfer of ownership of
Speaker 1: cultural property that was past in ninety Those calls have
Speaker 1: cited all the questions about Elgin's actions and the scope
Speaker 1: and the legitimacy of the firm in that we have
Speaker 1: talked about throughout this episode, along with whether that nineteen
Speaker 1: thirties overcleaning incident undermines the idea that the British Museum
Speaker 1: has been protecting the sculptures. One of the things that's
Speaker 1: been cited is the reason why the marbles shouldn't be
Speaker 1: returned to Greece is the idea that Greece didn't have
Speaker 1: a facility like the British Museum where those marbles could
Speaker 1: be housed, conserved, and displayed. In part because of that criticism,
Speaker 1: Greece built the new Acropolis Museum of Athens, which opened
Speaker 1: in two thousand eight. All the statues and other artworks
Speaker 1: that can be removed from the Parthenon are now indoors
Speaker 1: there so that they can be protected from the elements
Speaker 1: and from intentional theft or vandalism. So the gallery that's
Speaker 1: dedicated to the Parthenon at this new museum has large
Speaker 1: glass windows that overlook the Parthenon itself and then the
Speaker 1: size and the shape of the room replicates the perimeter
Speaker 1: of that inner cello where the freezes are, and the
Speaker 1: friezes are displayed there as they were on the original building.
Speaker 1: The pieces of the freeze that are in the British
Speaker 1: Museum or in other museums, because there are some pieces
Speaker 1: in other museums as well, those have been replaced with molds,
Speaker 1: and in some cases molds and casts replace individual pieces
Speaker 1: that were broken off and are in the British Museum collection,
Speaker 1: not so much in like the old style of restoring pieces,
Speaker 1: but more to show like we have this piece of
Speaker 1: the freeze, but the foot that should be on here
Speaker 1: is in the British Museum. In the Andonis Samaras administration
Speaker 1: in Greece called on UNESCO to mediate between Britain and
Speaker 1: Greece over the issue of the marbles. That August, UNESCO's
Speaker 1: Assistant Director General for Culture wrote a letter to the
Speaker 1: director of the British Museum, the UK Foreign Secretary, and
Speaker 1: the Minister for Culture, Media and Support. UNESCO offered to
Speaker 1: act as the mediator that Greece had requested. In the
Speaker 1: UK government and the trustees of the British Museum each
Speaker 1: responded with a decline. The museum's response read, in part quote,
Speaker 1: the British Museum is not a government body and the
Speaker 1: collections do not belong to the British Government. The trustees
Speaker 1: of the British Museum hold them not only for the
Speaker 1: British people, but for the benefit of the world public,
Speaker 1: present and future. The trustees have a legal and moral
Speaker 1: responsibility to preserve and maintain all the collections in their care,
Speaker 1: to treat them as inalienable, and to make them accessible
Speaker 1: to world audiences. The passage of brexit in also raised
Speaker 1: questions about whether Britain should return the Marbles after leaving
Speaker 1: the EU. There are several arguments at work with that idea.
Speaker 1: One is that returning artwork to other nations might help
Speaker 1: Britain rebuild relationships with other countries once it is not
Speaker 1: part of the EU anymore. And another is that if
Speaker 1: citizens of the European Union can no longer freely visit
Speaker 1: England to visit the British Museum, then Britain isn't really
Speaker 1: holding those works for the good of humanity only for
Speaker 1: the British. Obviously, citizens of the European Union are just
Speaker 1: a fraction of the totality of humanity. But that is
Speaker 1: the argument that's being made in this case. As of
Speaker 1: when we are recording this, the bregsit deadline is January.
Speaker 1: It's a few weeks down the road from today, so
Speaker 1: this all remains to be seen. Yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: like a week after this episode will probably come out. However,
Speaker 1: throughout this controversy, Britain has said fastly maintained that it
Speaker 1: will not return the marbles in January are British Museum
Speaker 1: director Heartwig Fisher again reiterated that the marbles would not
Speaker 1: be returned, calling their initial removal a creative act. He
Speaker 1: said this in an interview with Greek daily newspaper Tanya Today.
Speaker 1: Britain's argument for keeping the parthen On Marbles is basically
Speaker 1: that they were acquired legally and that they are freely
Speaker 1: available for anyone to see because the museum does not
Speaker 1: charge admission. They have also stressed the museum's placement of
Speaker 1: the marbles in the context of world history and art,
Speaker 1: alongside other masterpieces from other parts of the world. Britain
Speaker 1: has also cited concerns relating to things like economic issues
Speaker 1: in Greece, including a debt crisis and austerity measures. Previous
Speaker 1: points about Greek air quality in the lack of an
Speaker 1: appropriate museum are no longer really relevant thanks to the
Speaker 1: construction of the new Acropolis Museum. Greece's argument for having
Speaker 1: the Marble's return includes that Britain's acquisition was not legal,
Speaker 1: that the firm and was not that broad to allow
Speaker 1: such a huge removal of material, or that it may
Speaker 1: not have existed or may not have been an actual
Speaker 1: firm in at all. Additionally, Britain's negotiations were not with
Speaker 1: Greek authorities. They were with the Ottoman Empire, which modern
Speaker 1: Greece views as an occupying nation. It's also been noted
Speaker 1: that Elgin's initial plan with all of this was not
Speaker 1: at all to safeguard the pieces in a museum for
Speaker 1: the benefit of all of humanity. It was to keep
Speaker 1: them on his personal property for access by people he
Speaker 1: chose to allow to see it. From the Greek perspective,
Speaker 1: these sculptures are a critical part of Greek national identity,
Speaker 1: Greek history, and Greek culture, and they should be returned
Speaker 1: to Greece and reunited with the rest of the sculptures
Speaker 1: that are still there. But it's also been noted that
Speaker 1: At this point, Britain's argument for keeping the Marbles isn't
Speaker 1: really motivated by all of the points that we have
Speaker 1: just outlined. There's more of a slippery slope argument in play,
Speaker 1: and a fear across the world of museums as a
Speaker 1: whole that if Britain returns the parthon on Marble's, every
Speaker 1: museum everywhere will be forced to return artwork, artifacts, or
Speaker 1: other pieces of historical or cultural heritage that they obtained
Speaker 1: in some way that would be considered questionable today. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and ways that we're probably considered questionable at best by
Speaker 1: the people they were removed from at the time. So
Speaker 1: some other commonly cited examples of this are the Rosetta Stone,
Speaker 1: which Britain obtained in a treaty with Egypt, the Benin Bronzes,
Speaker 1: which British soldiers took from what's now Nigeria in the
Speaker 1: late nineteenth century, and the bust of Nefertiti, which has
Speaker 1: been in Germany since a German team founded in nineteen
Speaker 1: twelve and is now in the Noius Museum in Berlin.
Speaker 1: We've talked about calls to return the Rosetta Stone in
Speaker 1: a past Unearthed episode and Britain has announced that at
Speaker 1: least some of the Benien Bronzes will be returned to
Speaker 1: Nigeria and overall, in the last few years there has
Speaker 1: been a growing trend of returning and repatriating items from
Speaker 1: museum collections, especially human remains, as part of an overall
Speaker 1: trend towards decolonizing museums. But people are still fearful of
Speaker 1: what a greater move toward repatriation might mean. And it
Speaker 1: is something that would affect the world's most prominent art museums,
Speaker 1: including the met, the Louver and many others, lots and
Speaker 1: lots of them. And so it's a huge, huge issue
Speaker 1: and like a massive conversation that's going on throughout the
Speaker 1: world of art and art history and museums and all
Speaker 1: of that. Uh. Well, probably talk some more about those
Speaker 1: ideas in our behind the Scenes many so uh which
Speaker 1: will be out on Friday. It's a safe bet. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: I have a listener mail, so who takes out before
Speaker 1: we get to that sweet This is from Stephanie. Stephanie says, Hello,
Speaker 1: Tracy and Holly. I'm a longtime listener and absolutely love
Speaker 1: your show. I was particularly excited to hear your show
Speaker 1: about Alfred Wegner, because although I don't know much about
Speaker 1: his working continental drift, I am familiar with his final expedition.
Speaker 1: You mentioned in the know that the researchers who made
Speaker 1: it out to ice Mended were able to do some
Speaker 1: work before Vegnar arrived, but I wanted to note just
Speaker 1: how important that work was. While waiting out the winter,
Speaker 1: Earnst Sworge Hand dug a sixteen meter deep pit into
Speaker 1: the ice and developed a new method for measuring the
Speaker 1: seasonal accumulation of ice on the glacier using its density
Speaker 1: that could be used even if the layers were not visible. Later,
Speaker 1: this technique would be critical in the discovery of man
Speaker 1: made climate change. What I love about the story is
Speaker 1: that it further proves how important scientific research is, even
Speaker 1: if the importance isn't clear for years and years. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for all the work you do. Happy podcasting, Stephanie.
Speaker 1: Thank you Stephanie for this email. UM. I had read
Speaker 1: a little about the ice cores that they took during
Speaker 1: that expedition, but I did not know that detail about them,
Speaker 1: so thank you so much for sending that. If you
Speaker 1: would like to write to us about this or any
Speaker 1: other podcast where History podcast at my heart radio dot com.
Speaker 1: And then we're all over social media at miss in History.
Speaker 1: That's where you'll find our Facebook, Pinterest, Twitter, and Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to our show on Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: the I heart radio app, and anywhere else you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a
Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts,
Speaker 1: for my heart radio visits, i heeart radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.