Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the show, Ridiculous Historians. As always, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Quick disclaimer at the top. We
Speaker 1: are a family show, but there are some parts of
Speaker 1: this story that are a little, shall we say, racy?
Speaker 1: What do you think? A little salacious? Perhaps a lingering touch,
Speaker 1: maybe a little too long on the cheek, a little
Speaker 1: too familiar. It's true. Those romans knew how to party.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you. Yes, oh oh, and I'm Ben
Speaker 1: oh and I'm no, and I will tell you. We will,
Speaker 1: in fact tell you together along with superproducer Crazy Pegram.
Speaker 1: Are we talking like Ridiculous History after dark? Right now?
Speaker 1: What's what's going on? Yeah? Time, this is like the
Speaker 1: Red Shoe Diaries of Ridiculous History. So we got David
Speaker 1: Ducovney on a beach not to read one of our letters. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true. Folks. Before we get into today's episode, you
Speaker 1: might be wondering, Hey, guys, why did you decide to
Speaker 1: do uh something a little more risque today? Uh? And
Speaker 1: that's because we are you know, um, we're dead set
Speaker 1: on on ruining our reputation. We just got famous. We
Speaker 1: got to write up in a Vanity Fair uh that
Speaker 1: I initially thought described us as three famous shipwrecks because
Speaker 1: I just skimmed over it. And uh uh shout out
Speaker 1: to shout out to everybody who wrote in and and
Speaker 1: let us know that it was very kind. It must
Speaker 1: have been a slow news day at that publication out. Um,
Speaker 1: but we we appreciate it, and we thank everybody who's
Speaker 1: affiliated with our show in this episode. But of course, uh,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you again. I don't know, so it
Speaker 1: felt like maybe our next logical step now that we've
Speaker 1: reached the heights of something. Yeah, yeah, I mean, no
Speaker 1: better time than getting a little minute notoriety than the
Speaker 1: torpedo your whole career with a single episode in a
Speaker 1: single fell swoop. But also regarding that Vanity Fair right
Speaker 1: up also shout out to dress the History of Fashion,
Speaker 1: which also made that list of ten history podcast to
Speaker 1: check out. And honestly, there was some on that list
Speaker 1: that I was not familiar with, and I look forward
Speaker 1: to checking out myself. Yes, yes, agreed, and well said.
Speaker 1: So you might be wondering, how are these guys going
Speaker 1: to ruin their show for us today? Uh, well, we're
Speaker 1: going to ask for some help from the ancients from Rome. Uh,
Speaker 1: we are going to ask for some help from a
Speaker 1: guy named Emperor Tiberius. You know, in these are days
Speaker 1: of reality television, uh being you know, a deranged shipwreck
Speaker 1: of debauchery is is a legitimate business and a lot
Speaker 1: of people do very well with it. But this guy
Speaker 1: was putting in the work way before cable. You know,
Speaker 1: we don't get to use this word too often in
Speaker 1: modern English, but this guy's debauched. He is debauched. He
Speaker 1: has twisted, uh debauch, A bit of a pervert, definitely
Speaker 1: exhibited some some kinky behavior as a as a human being. Also,
Speaker 1: you know, one in a long line of Roman emperors
Speaker 1: who were just not particularly great people. Yeah, spoiler alert there. Uh.
Speaker 1: He preceded directly Caligula, one of our favorite debauched emperors.
Speaker 1: But he came by that honestly. Um, he had a
Speaker 1: pretty pretty great role model in the debauchery department. Uh.
Speaker 1: Tiberius was born on November sixty two b c E.
Speaker 1: On an area called the Palatine hill Um. He was
Speaker 1: the son of Tiberius Claudius Nero, who was a Roman
Speaker 1: key case caster. How do you say this word? Ben
Speaker 1: q u A E S t o or I know
Speaker 1: prey to ur, I don't know caster, is it key stir?
Speaker 1: Perhaps that would be appropriate. Yeah, that's uh. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like a money man or a comptroller. This is
Speaker 1: a general term for officials who had some sort of
Speaker 1: hand in or agency over public revenue and expenditure. So
Speaker 1: it's it's a good job if you can get it.
Speaker 1: This guy's full name, by the way, Tiberius Caesar, Divvy, Augusty,
Speaker 1: Philius Augustus, so you can see why they called him,
Speaker 1: you know, Tiberius or maybe Tibo or big T for short. Wait,
Speaker 1: he had an August and then Augustus, what's why it's
Speaker 1: a weird flex double augustin man, you know. Uh, in
Speaker 1: the days before television, people had much longer names. So
Speaker 1: and also he's he's royalty. Absolutely. But it's really funny.
Speaker 1: I grew up in a town called Augusta, Um, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, where the Master's golf tournament takes place, and
Speaker 1: also where James Brown was born, and he lived nearby
Speaker 1: and until he passed away. But it's funny. Every time
Speaker 1: I've met people not from Georgia, they always pronounced Augusta
Speaker 1: Augusta And I've always been kind of blown away by
Speaker 1: that because I'm like, have you not heard of Augustus?
Speaker 1: Like it's it seems like a weird stretch to to
Speaker 1: assume that you and it's a hard awe sound. Um,
Speaker 1: So just putting that out there as it was a
Speaker 1: little bit of a weird anachronism from folks not from
Speaker 1: from my neck of the woods. Yeah, like pronouncing Nevada
Speaker 1: or Nevada. Uh, that's a good example of that. I
Speaker 1: remember I was um or As in Ireland one time
Speaker 1: and this cab driver who was a beautiful, shady dude.
Speaker 1: I want to write a story about him. He uh.
Speaker 1: He was like, you know where, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: do the accent because we're on air, but he's like,
Speaker 1: where where are you all from? And you know, we
Speaker 1: said Atlanta, Georgia and he goes, oh, yeah, why And
Speaker 1: I had never asked how had somebody asked me why
Speaker 1: I lived? Like why am I from there? And uh?
Speaker 1: And then he said, you know, I would never travel
Speaker 1: to Georgia except if James Brown was still alive, because
Speaker 1: that's the thing about me. I'm irish. I love James Brown,
Speaker 1: and I love the rolling Stones and that's the only
Speaker 1: reason I would go to your state. But James Brown
Speaker 1: is dead anyway, here's your hotel. That was literally how
Speaker 1: he talked. Yeah, people love people love some JB. It's funny. Um.
Speaker 1: There was a stand up routine that Chris Rock did
Speaker 1: when he was performing in Augusta, and he referred to
Speaker 1: it um referencing the Masters and James Brown as the
Speaker 1: whitest and blackest place in America. UM. So I thought
Speaker 1: that was pretty clever. But but back to ancient Rome.
Speaker 1: Um as as we know, Julius Caesar now got stabbed
Speaker 1: to death pretty brutally by the entire Roman Senate. They
Speaker 1: all had to have a hand in that, so it
Speaker 1: could be like a quorum of murder. So weird, like
Speaker 1: why don't they name why did they name a salad
Speaker 1: after the guy? I think we should be calling all
Speaker 1: knives Caesar's now. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And and
Speaker 1: after this event, Rome was absolutely in disarray. There were
Speaker 1: these factions that emerged. Mark Anthony on the side of
Speaker 1: uh Caesar, like you know, trying to I guess, defend
Speaker 1: his honor or whatever. And Tiberius his family fought alongside
Speaker 1: Mark Anthony. But then Octavia and you guys might remember
Speaker 1: Ben I'm not sure if you watched this, but Rome
Speaker 1: on HBO, all of this was dramatized pretty beautifully, not
Speaker 1: entirely sure how historically accurately, but it's a it's a
Speaker 1: really fun show. Um. But octavian was a character you
Speaker 1: kind of grew up with because he was sort of
Speaker 1: a boy king Um and uh it turned in his favor,
Speaker 1: and then Tiberius and his family were essentially forced to flee,
Speaker 1: and they did that thing to Sicily, and that's when
Speaker 1: Octavian Um named himself Caesar Augustus, and he became the
Speaker 1: first legitimate last I don't know if legitimus didory word,
Speaker 1: but the first in name emperor of rome Um. And
Speaker 1: then when Tiberius was three years old, Augustus, the new emperor,
Speaker 1: gave his family a pass and granted them amnesty and
Speaker 1: they were able to come back out of hiding. They
Speaker 1: actually went to Greece after Sicily, so they were kicking
Speaker 1: it in Greece at this point. And so when Tiberius
Speaker 1: said his folks come back to Rome, Caesar Augustus, who
Speaker 1: was being advertised as the first true emperor of Rome
Speaker 1: at the time he notices the family, Like, clearly he
Speaker 1: likes them a bit because he allowed them to return,
Speaker 1: But it's a little bit sleazy because he's super into
Speaker 1: Tiberius's mom, Livia. As a matter of fact, he forces
Speaker 1: Tiberius's dad to give up the marriage and thirty eight
Speaker 1: b c. And he marries Livia and he this makes
Speaker 1: Tiberius one of the Emperor's adopted kids. So all of
Speaker 1: a sudden he is going from like running to Sicily,
Speaker 1: running to Greece on the lamb, to being the son
Speaker 1: of the emperor. So he gets all the bells and
Speaker 1: whistles that emperors get. His education is uh much better
Speaker 1: than a lot of other you know, uh, a lot
Speaker 1: of other people at the time his age. He learns philosophy, rhetoric,
Speaker 1: battle strategy. He gets like every day with the Emperor
Speaker 1: is like bring your kid to work day, because Augustus
Speaker 1: is like, hey, you know, uh, the Tiberius, come with
Speaker 1: me to this parade. I want you to see how
Speaker 1: everybody loves being out afraid they are. Uh. And you know,
Speaker 1: one day maybe this will happen to you, a little buddy.
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, and it was destined to be so. Um.
Speaker 1: He really took a keen interest in those battle strategy lessons,
Speaker 1: which is definitely not something like the clubs would have
Speaker 1: access to. UH. It was very much a package of
Speaker 1: education that was groomed specifically for a young ruler to
Speaker 1: be UM. And he exhibited a lot of cunning in
Speaker 1: military affairs, and he fought in Gaul UH and really
Speaker 1: made a reputation for himself as a military man. UM.
Speaker 1: And he started into a career of public service. I
Speaker 1: guess you could call it. I've always found Roman UH
Speaker 1: leaders to not be in particular service to the public.
Speaker 1: A lot of it is very self serving UH and
Speaker 1: self aggrandizing, but we'll call it civic career, right, UM.
Speaker 1: And so he initially was kind of a friend of
Speaker 1: the people. He defended and prosecuted at court, which was
Speaker 1: you know, with an audience in front of the Senate UM.
Speaker 1: And he began to uh kind of make some changes
Speaker 1: that were geared towards sort of helping the common uh citizens.
Speaker 1: He reorganized the supply chain of grain UM and was
Speaker 1: able to kind of solve some problems with the way
Speaker 1: slaves were kept, which is not something that a ruler
Speaker 1: would typically like concern themselves with. Apparently in the slave
Speaker 1: barracks there were really poor conditions uh, and free people
Speaker 1: were being detained there um and draft dodgers were often
Speaker 1: um trying to pose as slaves, which is interesting. And
Speaker 1: he put a stop to all that um, and he
Speaker 1: really started to ramp up his career as a politician. Um.
Speaker 1: What do we say? It was again ben key store
Speaker 1: k store k store kse store k triste. He became
Speaker 1: a k store, a prey tour and ultimately a console
Speaker 1: at a very very ripe young age and was given
Speaker 1: a tribune to oversee for a period of five years.
Speaker 1: And this is a great resource on thought code dot
Speaker 1: com and then gives us some nice background where using
Speaker 1: on Tiberius. I'd like to also give a shout out
Speaker 1: to history Collection dot co, which talks about the rule
Speaker 1: of Tiberius. Now, you know, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: circumstances that lead him to become emperor. And I don't
Speaker 1: know about you all, but I'd like to get to
Speaker 1: the good juicy stuff with his reign. So let let
Speaker 1: me just give you what they call the high level
Speaker 1: download and Corporate America give it to us. Have shaved it.
Speaker 1: I'm wearing his suit jacket. So I feel like he's
Speaker 1: on brand to say that now. So he is now
Speaker 1: kind of in line for the throat. Maybe he's fourth
Speaker 1: the line, maybe he's fifth, but at that point he
Speaker 1: doesn't have a real good chance of becoming emperor in
Speaker 1: normal times. However, these are not normal times. Uh. Several
Speaker 1: people die, and every time someone die, he moves a
Speaker 1: little bit closer to the throne to ascending to emperor.
Speaker 1: And it's weird because eventually it becomes clear that Caesar
Speaker 1: Augustus was grooming another person to take over as Emperor um.
Speaker 1: But this person, Agrippa, dies when he's fifty years old,
Speaker 1: and so after a couple of other deaths, eventually Caesar
Speaker 1: Augusta has to go to Tiberius and you know, officially
Speaker 1: adopted him to make him next in line for the
Speaker 1: throne with the following phrase, uh not especially a loving
Speaker 1: father's phrase. He says, this I do for reasons of state,
Speaker 1: and I love you, my new son. What is it
Speaker 1: new grandson, nephew? Yeah, that's right. He didn't add any
Speaker 1: of that, you know, he really did. And I'm just
Speaker 1: trying to help the help the young lad out um
Speaker 1: because obviously I don't know, maybe it was him not
Speaker 1: feeling loved enough that caused him to become the monster
Speaker 1: that we will soon describe him to to have become. Um,
Speaker 1: he was given tribunition powers for ten years then and
Speaker 1: adopted his nephew Germanicus to be his heir. So now
Speaker 1: he is uh, now he's riding high, right, and he
Speaker 1: kind of just has to wait for his weirdly distant
Speaker 1: stepfather to die or adoptive father. Uh. He goes off
Speaker 1: and he still fights battles because that's what he liked doing.
Speaker 1: He's campaigning in what is modern day Germany. He's knocking
Speaker 1: down rebellions, he's shoring up the borders of the empire.
Speaker 1: Now like as the Emperor is getting closer to death,
Speaker 1: he is getting more and more legal constitutional power that
Speaker 1: puts him on par with the emperor. When Augustus dies
Speaker 1: auguste a D. They read his will. It confirms that
Speaker 1: Tiberius is the emperor, and it all becomes official September eighteenth,
Speaker 1: just a few days later, fourteen eight D. And at
Speaker 1: first he's coming, he's like a sheriff in a Wild
Speaker 1: West film. He's coming to clean this town up, and
Speaker 1: he hates astrologers. That's my favorite part. It is it
Speaker 1: is pretty funny. Yeah, but he had already kind of
Speaker 1: exhibited some of that stuff with the whole like you know,
Speaker 1: helping with the grain distribution so people could be fed,
Speaker 1: and you know, helping you know, clear up conditions for
Speaker 1: the slave quarters and all of that stuff. Um. I
Speaker 1: mean that that's not like the most magnanimous thing in
Speaker 1: the whole world. But the fact is he demonstrated that
Speaker 1: he kind of cared about normal people. UM. So he
Speaker 1: apparently had a real burning hatred for sick offense, which
Speaker 1: is a word that I love because it just is
Speaker 1: fun to say. And obviously that is a thing that
Speaker 1: a lot of these kinds of rulers are surrounded by,
Speaker 1: and he had no time for that. Um. So he
Speaker 1: uh did not surround himself with yes men. He was
Speaker 1: very much in control of his own decisions, and he
Speaker 1: really try to check some of these just gross abuses
Speaker 1: and mishandling of UH funds that had caused, you know, um,
Speaker 1: the lives of normal citizens to be really disrupted in
Speaker 1: favor of you know, rulers living high on the hog um.
Speaker 1: As we know, there were Egyptian connections with UH with
Speaker 1: with Rome because of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra specifically, and
Speaker 1: so there were all of these kind of little cells,
Speaker 1: I guess, these Egyptian cults and also Jewish cults in Rome.
Speaker 1: And he disbanded those, uh likely with a very heavy hand.
Speaker 1: And he also, like you said, Ben, he banished all
Speaker 1: of the astrologers because he found them to be tricksters
Speaker 1: and and not not trustworthy. Um. He consolidated the government,
Speaker 1: the praetorians um to make it more efficient. He quashed
Speaker 1: all of these riots and infighting, and he abolished something
Speaker 1: called the right of sanctuary, which I guess there's parallels
Speaker 1: in kind of modern day geopolitics. But what what do
Speaker 1: you take that to mean? Ben? The right of sanctuary
Speaker 1: is this old, old concept. Of course, maybe you know
Speaker 1: it's kind of new at the time. Then, uh. The
Speaker 1: idea is that if you're being persecuted by your own country,
Speaker 1: you can be protected by some other authority. Like that's
Speaker 1: why you have all those things from the Middle Ages
Speaker 1: or films that are set in the Middle Ages where
Speaker 1: someone's like sanctuary, sanctuary. It dates back to this concept.
Speaker 1: I do want to say, when we say Egyptian and
Speaker 1: Jewish cults that's not that's not a pejorative term. Uh.
Speaker 1: They are occulted, you know, they're practicing things in secret,
Speaker 1: so he saw them as an avenue. They have potential
Speaker 1: to be seditious. My last question with that one is
Speaker 1: did the astrologers see it coming? Is that rude to ask?
Speaker 1: I don't think they saw it coming. I highly doubt
Speaker 1: it myself, Ben. And so then you know, he was
Speaker 1: seen as being kind of progressive, you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of some of the laws and the policies that he enacted. Uh,
Speaker 1: and seemed to be kind of helping the nation what
Speaker 1: was wrong the empire, that's the word. Um, helping strengthen
Speaker 1: their navy. UM. He stopped gladiator events, which obviously we're
Speaker 1: hugely popular, and I'm sure that didn't go over particularly well.
Speaker 1: But as we know, I mean, it's an absolutely barbaric
Speaker 1: situation where slaves and you know, prisoners were forced to
Speaker 1: fight to the death for the amusement of of the people.
Speaker 1: UM and also mainly the the hierarchy. UM. And he
Speaker 1: even like showed this idea of having a month named
Speaker 1: after him. So he seemed to have a little bit
Speaker 1: of humility. He was not into extravagance and all the
Speaker 1: trappings of the office. So started off kind of strong,
Speaker 1: right yeah yeah. Uh also good, I will say objectively
Speaker 1: good call and stopping claudatorial things. That's there were animals
Speaker 1: that were hunted to the state of critical endangerment. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm just pro animals, anti gladiators, I guess. Yeah. This
Speaker 1: this seems set like he's clearly authoritarian. He's clearly trying
Speaker 1: to stop what he sees as headonism. Right. Uh, this
Speaker 1: whole changes in eree his beloved son drew Sus dies.
Speaker 1: According to contemporary reports and reports that you know were
Speaker 1: written long after his reign, this is seen as his
Speaker 1: his tipping point. Uh. There's a source called Cassius Dio
Speaker 1: who says Tiberius now became increasingly paranoid and bloodthirsty and cruel,
Speaker 1: and he was showing some signs of what we would
Speaker 1: call cognitive dissonance today. He would torture slaves to death,
Speaker 1: and then he would mourn people who died after he
Speaker 1: ordered their deaths, but then he would resent the people
Speaker 1: who he didn't purge. Uh. This like imagine what a
Speaker 1: mind field that is, because it sounds like he's having
Speaker 1: some dithering, some indecision. He's like, man, I should have
Speaker 1: killed caster number two. Why are you alive? Number one?
Speaker 1: I knew it was you. You've committed some weird crime. Uh.
Speaker 1: This is clearly going to have some blowback. He becomes
Speaker 1: incredibly unpopular with the Senate, where the people he has
Speaker 1: to please, and with the people like the actual people
Speaker 1: of the Roman Empire. Absolutely, I mean, because he's definitely
Speaker 1: going after some wealthy landholders and people that are very
Speaker 1: influential with members of the Senate. Um. He's just dolling
Speaker 1: out all of these really harsh punishments and confiscating people's property,
Speaker 1: and then he just kind of ups and leaves. In
Speaker 1: twenty s CE, he's like, peace out, you know, I'm gone,
Speaker 1: and he takes off to Capri. It reminds me of
Speaker 1: that part and the Sword in the Stone where Merlin's like,
Speaker 1: blow me too, Bermuda, you know. And then he's out
Speaker 1: and he's gone, and he just pieces out to Bermuda
Speaker 1: and then kind of comes back at the end to
Speaker 1: sort of like set things right or whatever, or at
Speaker 1: least let Arthur come into his own that that is
Speaker 1: not what happens with Tiberia. So he goes to the
Speaker 1: island of Capri, which is a beautiful place that's still
Speaker 1: a very swanky destination for the rich and powerful today.
Speaker 1: But he completely became like this hermit. And he assigned
Speaker 1: control to uh Lucius alias said Janus Um, who is
Speaker 1: the captain of of his praetorian guard uh. And he
Speaker 1: gave him this name, Socius labor um, which means partner
Speaker 1: of my labors, which I guess is sort of like
Speaker 1: the idea of oh, what would you call that ben
Speaker 1: like um, what do you call someone that kind of
Speaker 1: rules in while someone else is maybe not doing well
Speaker 1: or like under the weather, like health wise, power behind
Speaker 1: the throne. You could also say um regent perhaps is perfect.
Speaker 1: That's the one I was trying to think of. So
Speaker 1: Tiberius when he does this, he he seems to completely
Speaker 1: withdraw I like that you bring up the phrase hermit.
Speaker 1: He is a reclusive he's in the island of Capri,
Speaker 1: Bay of Naples. But this is where it gets weird.
Speaker 1: So younger listeners, family listeners be warned, this might not
Speaker 1: be appropriate for everybody. According to a source named Setonius,
Speaker 1: who was also um, kind of like a TMZ kind
Speaker 1: of questionable coverage Yeah, Tiberius went nuts in the worst
Speaker 1: way and became an example of a lot of the
Speaker 1: things that he originally fought against. Uh. Here is an
Speaker 1: excerpt from Setonius, Life of Tiberius and all the hey's
Speaker 1: referred to Tiberius. Here. On retiring to Capri, he devised
Speaker 1: a pleasants for his secret orgies, teams of wantons of
Speaker 1: both sexes selected as experts, and deviant intercourse. And here's
Speaker 1: my favorite part, dubbed analyst. I first read that analysts,
Speaker 1: and now I realized that not what it means at all.
Speaker 1: That's such a we're like nine years old. That's such
Speaker 1: a weird word. Any way, So they said they copulated
Speaker 1: before him in triple unions to excite his flagging passions.
Speaker 1: It's this is a long quote. You want to help
Speaker 1: out with us part? Yeah, it's bedroom. Now. This is
Speaker 1: referring to by the way, he built all these villas,
Speaker 1: and the most elaborate of them was called Villa Jovis,
Speaker 1: which I believe translates to the Villa of Jupiter, which
Speaker 1: was a an absurdly ostentatious palatial kind of estate on
Speaker 1: the island of Capri's northeast corner. It goes on to say,
Speaker 1: in referring to the bedrooms of Villa Jovis, Uh, they
Speaker 1: were furnished with the most salacious paintings and sculptures, as
Speaker 1: well as with an erotic library. In case a performer
Speaker 1: should need an illustration of what was required, then in
Speaker 1: Capri's woods and groves, he arranged a number of nooks
Speaker 1: of venery where boys and girls got up as pans
Speaker 1: and nymphs solicited outside bowers and grottos. People openly called
Speaker 1: this the old goats Garden. Punning on the island's name
Speaker 1: because of the Romans referred to Capri as goat Island
Speaker 1: is so so so gross, because all right, well, our
Speaker 1: our path is set, let's keep going. You know, of course,
Speaker 1: we know that Pan the satyr Uh is the Greek
Speaker 1: god with the bottom half of a goat, and Uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know, he's got the hind quarters of a goat,
Speaker 1: and he's got the horns. And these were thought to be,
Speaker 1: you know, symbolically, they were um representations of uh physical desire,
Speaker 1: of UH sexual passion. And so this is something that
Speaker 1: Satorious is definitely leveraging to make Tiberias seem like a
Speaker 1: super horny old man. But this is this is one
Speaker 1: of the weirdest ones. So he completely is not doing
Speaker 1: his job as emperor. Instead, according according to this story,
Speaker 1: he is getting so weird and specific with his pursuits
Speaker 1: that that he's doing things that probably wouldn't occur to
Speaker 1: most people in the world at the time. Who else
Speaker 1: would have thought of training children, little boys to act
Speaker 1: as nipping minnows or what he called tidlers I believe,
Speaker 1: to chase him when he went swimming. Yeah, that's gross,
Speaker 1: It's it's beyond gross. And just to just to take
Speaker 1: it one step further, um, yeah, they were nipping minnows
Speaker 1: because he would be swimming I'm imagining in the nude
Speaker 1: and they would swim after him, nibbling between his legs. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, no one from the court was allowed to
Speaker 1: visit him on Capri. He was in complete quarantine. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, self imposed. Um, with this harem of of
Speaker 1: young boys and women and girls and just having a
Speaker 1: good old time. Um. There were even you know, local
Speaker 1: fisher men who were in that region. Uh, they were
Speaker 1: not allowed to fish in the waters of Capri. If
Speaker 1: they were found to be doing that, they would have
Speaker 1: held to pay yeah, and uh he turned the place
Speaker 1: into his own deranged uh pleasure islands. So how did
Speaker 1: he get away with this? For so long? He was
Speaker 1: distracting the Senate, which is something a lot of Greek
Speaker 1: and Roman emperors did, you know, the whole bread and
Speaker 1: circuses vibes. He was distracting the public by his clearly
Speaker 1: deteriorating mental state, his sexual deviancy, by building statues all
Speaker 1: over the city and distributing all this propaganda. Right, and
Speaker 1: he was so busy though with his weird fetishistic stuff
Speaker 1: that he did not notice the same person he was
Speaker 1: trying to keep in power was of course plotting against him.
Speaker 1: And then when he figured out that treason was in
Speaker 1: the air, you know, he presumably put some clothes on, right, Uh,
Speaker 1: maybe dried himself off, took off whatever weird costume he
Speaker 1: had on, and he said, I've got to go to Rome.
Speaker 1: Get yet to Rome. And he did that in a
Speaker 1: D thirty one. He uh summoned s Janas, who was
Speaker 1: his his buddy up until this point, to a Senate meeting,
Speaker 1: immediately condemned him to death. Um accused him of treason.
Speaker 1: And it's not like they tried him or anything. They
Speaker 1: just the accusation alone was all it took, and had
Speaker 1: him executed along with anyone that was associated with him
Speaker 1: or his plot to overtake uh, Tiberius as the ruler.
Speaker 1: And then I mean that wasn't enough. He you know,
Speaker 1: that paranoia that we described earlier, this is really coming
Speaker 1: into play because he goes on an absolute murder frenzy um.
Speaker 1: And Tacitus, who's another historian, describes it as such. This
Speaker 1: is wild. Executions were now a stimulus to his fury,
Speaker 1: and he ordered the death of all who were lying
Speaker 1: in prison under accusation of complicity with Saganas. There lay
Speaker 1: singly or in heaps, the unnumbered dead of every age
Speaker 1: and sex, the illustrious, with the obscure kinsfolk and friends
Speaker 1: were not allowed to be near them, to weep over them,
Speaker 1: or even to gaze on them too long. And so
Speaker 1: Tiberius really shoots himself in the foot here way before
Speaker 1: the invention of firearms. Obviously, Uh. You see Saganas the
Speaker 1: person who is doing all the work, and the person
Speaker 1: he supported, and then the person who turned against him
Speaker 1: that he later executed. Saganas have been taking the brunt
Speaker 1: of public blame for the emperor's we're disturbing excesses. But
Speaker 1: when he was gone, when he was killed out of
Speaker 1: the picture, the blame for this rested solely with the
Speaker 1: guy who was responsible, Typeerious. The empire continued to run on.
Speaker 1: It's a huge machine. But for the remaining six years
Speaker 1: of Type Arious his life, he was terrorizing Rome. The Senate,
Speaker 1: which was famous for infighting and betrayal and subterfuge. The
Speaker 1: Senate was scrambling, just like any congressional body or parliament
Speaker 1: to agree on something. They needed to name a successor.
Speaker 1: And then Tiberius, at this point is so far gone.
Speaker 1: He's convinced not only has Saganas betrayed him or was
Speaker 1: planning to overthrow him, but he thinks Siganna's killed his
Speaker 1: kid as well, and so he sends out these spies
Speaker 1: like you. Like you have mentioned in that quote, no
Speaker 1: one is safe. Even people who are on Capri are
Speaker 1: not safe. He's sending folks out for them. And eventually,
Speaker 1: just like his adoptive father, he takes an l and
Speaker 1: he says, I'm going to have to name some successors,
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna name one of my adopted grandsons. He
Speaker 1: names his grandson, caligula successor. And then he says, I
Speaker 1: am nursing a viper in Rome. S bossom ha ha
Speaker 1: fun right. Uh. And then you know, he gets into
Speaker 1: like an accident during kind of a ceremonial joust, I
Speaker 1: guess is what you could call it um, and that
Speaker 1: really caused his health to take a turn for the worst.
Speaker 1: He fell into a coma and uh, the physicians that
Speaker 1: attended to him, you know, said he would, he would.
Speaker 1: He's a goner. He's gonna be dead within like a
Speaker 1: day or so. Uh. Caligula has called for the Praetorian
Speaker 1: Guard bend the knee to him, and the Senate officially
Speaker 1: proclaims Caligula to be the Supreme Emperor of Roman. You
Speaker 1: even added the supreme just to give it a little
Speaker 1: more of of a flex. Yeah, you got a flex
Speaker 1: on him. But wait, there's a whomp whomp moment here.
Speaker 1: This is a very Larry David moment, because, uh, Tiberius
Speaker 1: doesn't die. He wakes up and he's like, boy, I'm hungry. Uh,
Speaker 1: he cooked me up something to eat. People are panicking,
Speaker 1: you know this guy. Now, we can't have two emperors.
Speaker 1: That's not emperor's work. Uh so history sometimes very rare times,
Speaker 1: it turns on the actions of a single individual, which
Speaker 1: should be inspiring and terrifying in equal parts. One person
Speaker 1: changes the course of history. The new captain of the
Speaker 1: Praetorian Guard, Macro, which is a cool name, Um Macro,
Speaker 1: slips into Tiberius's chambers again he probably would have survived
Speaker 1: for a few more years, and uh he smothers the
Speaker 1: elderly former emperor to death. Yeah, with a pile of blankets,
Speaker 1: which is kind of a step up from the usual
Speaker 1: hospital bed pillow smothering. But it's interesting then. You know.
Speaker 1: You got to think too that this was in many
Speaker 1: ways a kind of self preservation move on Macro's part,
Speaker 1: because he knew that if if Tiberius found out that
Speaker 1: he and his entire guard had already sworn fealty to um,
Speaker 1: you know, to Sigula while he lay there in a colma,
Speaker 1: he would not have been very happy about that, and
Speaker 1: with his crazy rages, probably would have done something bonkers
Speaker 1: like had them all killed or removed or imprisoned or something. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a really good point. You know. Regicide is a
Speaker 1: great crime, the killing of a of a king or
Speaker 1: royal But the more I think about it, maybe Macro
Speaker 1: was trying to save the empire because you know, at
Speaker 1: this point Caligula is clearly depraved, right, but uh he
Speaker 1: doesn't have the track record of insanity that Tiberius has
Speaker 1: before he dies under that pile of blankets at the
Speaker 1: age of seventy seven. So maybe Macro, Maybe Macro deserves
Speaker 1: more credit as um in terms of his intentions. What
Speaker 1: do you think. I think he might be right. He
Speaker 1: chose the lesser of the two nutcases in this particular
Speaker 1: situation because Caligula still hadn't had access to all of
Speaker 1: the resources that you do when you become the supreme emperor.
Speaker 1: Uh So, if you guys have ever seen the purely
Speaker 1: pornographic film Caligula starring Malcolm McDowell, which I believe was
Speaker 1: produced by a porn impress Sario possibly pen. It wasn't
Speaker 1: Penthouse because that was no pen. It was Penthouse because
Speaker 1: Hustler was Larry flint Um. I believe it was the
Speaker 1: publisher of Penthouse magazine. And that is a film to
Speaker 1: check out. It is absolutely depraved and some of the
Speaker 1: set pieces are nuts. There's one where he's taking out
Speaker 1: all his enemies and rivals um by burying them up
Speaker 1: to their neck in uh sand. And then there's this
Speaker 1: crazy like giant thresher lawnmower type machine that like slices
Speaker 1: all their heads off, like their little cabbage is above
Speaker 1: the ground and it just lops them off. Don't know
Speaker 1: how historically accurate that is, but definitely a film worth
Speaker 1: checking out if you want something completely trashy. I do
Speaker 1: I do want to add so this this is the
Speaker 1: depraved Rain, the debauched Rain of Tiberius. But we do
Speaker 1: want to add um I think I tease this at
Speaker 1: the top of the episode. Oh yeah, I know what
Speaker 1: you're in them? Yeah, we these stories are red meat
Speaker 1: right there, juicy, they're they're fascinating, but they might they
Speaker 1: might not be a true because you might be thinking,
Speaker 1: fellow ridiculous historians, when you're listening to the this episode,
Speaker 1: UH might be thinking, Wow, what gives with all these
Speaker 1: uh perverted, bizarre, deprived emperors in the Roman Empire? Well,
Speaker 1: some of these might be tabloid stories. We have to
Speaker 1: take them with a grain of salt. We have to
Speaker 1: remember that a lot of these people who wrote these
Speaker 1: histories of emperors after they died, they were living under
Speaker 1: the rule of another emperor, and so it's not the
Speaker 1: best move to be like, you know, who is way
Speaker 1: cool that guy before you? You know, yeah, and you
Speaker 1: gotta think like, yeah, they're trying to curry favor directly,
Speaker 1: but also they know which side their bread is buttered on. Uh,
Speaker 1: and they may well have been slipped some of these
Speaker 1: details and said you will write of Tiberius that he
Speaker 1: had young catamites swimming after his bits and behaving as
Speaker 1: tiny minnows, you know, in a rgsque you know, situation
Speaker 1: on on capri um. So you know, that sounds so
Speaker 1: bonkers that it's just crazy enough to have literally been
Speaker 1: made up by somebody, because it's like, if I had
Speaker 1: to make up something just completely untrue, uh, and that
Speaker 1: would get people's imagination spinning, that might be a go to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as as someone uh who was recovering from doing massive
Speaker 1: about the improv back in the day. That sounds like
Speaker 1: a setup that you arrive at when a bunch of
Speaker 1: people are just brainstorming and they're like, what's even weirder,
Speaker 1: what's even weirder? No, no, no, no, no, no now now, um,
Speaker 1: this kind of uh, depraved sexual behavior is disturbing. But
Speaker 1: let's get you know, let's get weird with it. Let's
Speaker 1: throw a pool in there, right, somebody yes and me
Speaker 1: on this one. That's that's almost how it reads, because
Speaker 1: you'll see other reports that say Tiberius actually, when he
Speaker 1: lived in exile and Capri, he just lived with like
Speaker 1: a small group of people that where his friends are entourage,
Speaker 1: and he hung out and talked philosophy with Greek intellectuals.
Speaker 1: So the real truth is probably somewhere in between. There's
Speaker 1: also an account from Edward Togo Salmon that says only
Speaker 1: fifty two people were actually accused of treason throughout his
Speaker 1: entire reign, and that only about half of them were executed,
Speaker 1: and uh, only four innocent men died apparently. Um, and
Speaker 1: here's the thing, um, you know, the system of government
Speaker 1: is really more to blame. You know, even as crazy
Speaker 1: as a ruler can be, it's the system of government
Speaker 1: that's kind of what empowers them to get that crazy,
Speaker 1: whether it's the Senate or whether it's just you know, uh,
Speaker 1: the nature of of an empire in the Roman system,
Speaker 1: and that it wasn't merit based at all, that it
Speaker 1: was all about succession, and so you would get these like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's the same with with royalty. I mean
Speaker 1: you you end up with these like completely under prepared
Speaker 1: and potentially mental ill rulers because nobody has a choice
Speaker 1: but to elevate them to that position because they are
Speaker 1: in line. Yeah. On various other shows, I've I've made
Speaker 1: my opinions about monarchical systems known. We don't need to
Speaker 1: go into them today other than to say I have
Speaker 1: on the same page with you. Even in our system,
Speaker 1: you you have a big problem, a lot on stuff
Speaker 1: that it wants you to know about nepotism and about
Speaker 1: like you know, dynasty's political dynasties, which is kind of
Speaker 1: a modern version of the same kind of business in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Yes, yeah, all right, I'll say it.
Speaker 1: I'll say it. I'll keep it brief. This is not
Speaker 1: gonna be a ted talk. But do you know how
Speaker 1: weird it is to explain to uh, my friends who
Speaker 1: are not from the States and they say, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: so this is a democracy, republican meritocracy. That means that
Speaker 1: the most qualified person gets the job. And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what that's what it means. Every you know, every
Speaker 1: few years we elect the best and brightest of all
Speaker 1: three d twenty three millions something of us. And then
Speaker 1: they always hit me with that question, if that's true,
Speaker 1: how come so many presidents to that the same last name.
Speaker 1: How come they've been in the same family. I thought
Speaker 1: you said it wasn't a monarchy, At which point I'm like, oh, man, well,
Speaker 1: you know there's a lot lost in the chasm between
Speaker 1: theory and practice. Anyway, let me show you this landmark.
Speaker 1: It's called Stone Mountain. Yeah. The fact they haven't sand
Speaker 1: blasted that baby yet is is kind of lost on me.
Speaker 1: But you know, history, you gotta preserve history and all that.
Speaker 1: And speaking of preserving history, if you want to take
Speaker 1: a pleasure cruise to the island of Capri, you can
Speaker 1: do so from Naples and check it out. And the
Speaker 1: ruins I guess of the villa where Tiberius supposedly carried
Speaker 1: out all of these debauched activities is tourable. Um, it's
Speaker 1: a bit of a walk. I think it's a couple
Speaker 1: of kilometers from where you get dropped off, but it's
Speaker 1: it's accessible and probably a very interesting, uh interesting hike.
Speaker 1: And in conclusion, we hope you enjoyed today's episode, folks, Uh,
Speaker 1: we do have to say to be fair that while
Speaker 1: clearly we're we're having fun taking, in my mind valid
Speaker 1: pot shots at the problems with Roman government and the
Speaker 1: Empire in general, they are in a large part responsible
Speaker 1: for some incredibly profound scientific and cultural and philosophical advances
Speaker 1: that are that remain important in the world today. So
Speaker 1: I'm just I feel like we have to say it.
Speaker 1: But still Tiberius makes you wonder what leaders can get
Speaker 1: away with, you know. Um not to say there aren't
Speaker 1: uh leaders who are bawling out in very strange depraved
Speaker 1: ways today, Kim Jongoon, the assaultan of Brunei, Donald Trump, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the I mean, the a lot of ruling members of
Speaker 1: the House of out in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 1: History is not as as far gone nor as uh
Speaker 1: uh distant as I think we would like to think sometimes.
Speaker 1: So maybe Tiberius is a lesson that applies in the
Speaker 1: modern day. Maybe we could just call it, hey, don't
Speaker 1: hire your nephew. I don't know, absolutely not, especially you're like,
Speaker 1: you know, like Damien from the Omen type nephew, you
Speaker 1: know know that that just read the signs, read the room,
Speaker 1: not a good idea, but man, I gotta say Ben.
Speaker 1: As as as upsetting in some ways and depraved as
Speaker 1: this episode was, I really enjoyed talking about this with you. Yeah, agreed.
Speaker 1: I'm also grateful that we have instituted our own form
Speaker 1: of government for ridiculous history. Early on, I cannot remember
Speaker 1: if we were talking about this on air or if
Speaker 1: we were at a happy hour to bar back when
Speaker 1: people went outside, but there was a time where we
Speaker 1: decided to elect Casey as our ruler. I think you're
Speaker 1: the only man for the job. Casey, are you okay
Speaker 1: with this heavy waves the head that wears the crown.
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I'm really cut out for for ruling,
Speaker 1: but if it thrust upon me, I guess I'll do
Speaker 1: what I can. Oh, we be thrust in. It is
Speaker 1: thrust uh in, you know, in pure in pure Tiberian style, boy,
Speaker 1: thrust in on Casey. Which can we start calling you
Speaker 1: the case store? Sure? I love the case store, Casey,
Speaker 1: case case k store on the case. Okay, I'm gonna stop.
Speaker 1: We'll get there, We'll get there, We'll workshop it. Thank
Speaker 1: you as always for tuning in thinks of course, to
Speaker 1: our research associate Gabe Bluesier, who I know books it's
Speaker 1: on the books though now it is actually happening. Gabe,
Speaker 1: thank you for pencil. You knows. I think we're such
Speaker 1: fan boys of this guy. I hope it's not too awkward.
Speaker 1: Can we tease us a little bit just saying that
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about psychedelic cats? Nobody google that.
Speaker 1: Don't ruin this for us or yourself. It's gonna be
Speaker 1: a wild ride. Uh. And of course thanks to our
Speaker 1: our good pal Christopher Hasciotis do for a return appearance,
Speaker 1: I would say, also Eve's Jeff Coat. Uh. And oh
Speaker 1: you know what I never I forgot to. I forgot
Speaker 1: to write back to Jonathan Strickland, a k. The quister,
Speaker 1: that one's on me. What do you mean right back?
Speaker 1: We don't communicate with him, and advance of his appearances,
Speaker 1: he just kind of materializes. I like to write him
Speaker 1: some some kind of like personal digs and insults, because
Speaker 1: I think it just to get his dander up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure, for sure. Eat thanks to Alex Williams, who
Speaker 1: composed our theme. Thanks to super producer Casey pegram Case
Speaker 1: Store Casey on the Casey case how about that? There
Speaker 1: we go Yeah, and thanks of course to our our
Speaker 1: good friend of the show and personal friends Sarah Cotanov,
Speaker 1: who initially tipped us off about that right up, and
Speaker 1: Noel as always, thanks to you, Yeah, thanks to YouTube Ben,
Speaker 1: and just really quickly, thanks to Justine Good who wrote
Speaker 1: that nicely for Vanity Fair and Uh and thought to
Speaker 1: include us that it means the world. We'll see you
Speaker 1: next time, folks. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.