Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing,
Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policy makers and performers,
Speaker 1: to hear their stories or inspires their creations, what decisions
Speaker 1: change their careers, what relationships influenced their work. If the
Speaker 1: fashion world were a kingdom, Grace Coddington would be queen.
Speaker 1: The English model turned Vogue fashion editor, creative director and
Speaker 1: stylist has been telling stories through clothes since age eighteen.
Speaker 1: Born in nineteen forty one on a small island in
Speaker 1: the north of Wales, Grace Coddington moved to London as
Speaker 1: a teenager. With electric red hair. She became a model
Speaker 1: and took the fashion world by storm, landing on the
Speaker 1: cover of British Vogue in nineteen sixty two, where six
Speaker 1: years later she'd begin her editorial career as a junior
Speaker 1: a fashion editor. Eventually, Cartington ended up at American Vogue,
Speaker 1: where she spent more than twenty five years as its
Speaker 1: creative director. For a master of style, Grace Cardington's own
Speaker 1: aesthetic may surprise you. Well, start off with how I dress.
Speaker 1: I don't wear jeans and things like that. I just
Speaker 1: wear black. But I have a reason for that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have several reasons right now, I'm a little bit
Speaker 1: older and my little bit fatter, and black looks better
Speaker 1: on fatter, older people because they makes them look slim
Speaker 1: and young. Yeah. But the other reason is that I
Speaker 1: spend my whole life with clothes and looking at clothes
Speaker 1: and judging clothes, considering clothes and making clothes form into
Speaker 1: a story or something like that. So I want to
Speaker 1: have a kind of clean palette on myself. So that's thinking, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's distracting. I mean, I I don't want to think
Speaker 1: too much about what I'm putting on in the morning.
Speaker 1: I mean that said I do change. There's an infinitesimal
Speaker 1: difference between now and you know, five years ago, where
Speaker 1: maybe the pants were a little bit wider, a little
Speaker 1: bit narrower, the sweater was a little bit tighter, a
Speaker 1: little bit, you know, and I wear the black version
Speaker 1: of today rather than the black version of five years ago.
Speaker 1: So but you asked, like, who wears fashion? Fashion? What
Speaker 1: kind of people? What kind of people? Because I let
Speaker 1: me just sayd the interject that I'm magnorant, because I
Speaker 1: assume there are people who wake up and obviously they
Speaker 1: have a budget and they go to places that make
Speaker 1: clothes that are smart clothes that don't cost as much money.
Speaker 1: And then there's people who are going by very simple
Speaker 1: clothes and they get a nice blazer, and then it's
Speaker 1: all been out a Republic khaki pants and white button
Speaker 1: down shirts and some little menu of eyes. There are
Speaker 1: options if you're not wearing a uniform to work, let's say.
Speaker 1: And then there's people who have limitless resources and can
Speaker 1: buy anything out there in the world that they want
Speaker 1: in the world of fashion, and I'm wondering, are you
Speaker 1: only making your clothes for them? No, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think it's my efforts are supposed to be to inspire,
Speaker 1: you know, to inspire people, and I'm hoping that people
Speaker 1: will not just copy copier designers look, you know, Piece
Speaker 1: for Peace. I'm hoping that they will actually put their
Speaker 1: own personality into it, you know. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: when it gets to the magazine, you show it in
Speaker 1: lots of different ways rather than just the way it
Speaker 1: came down the runway, because otherwise everybody really would kind
Speaker 1: of be dressed the same and it would be embarrassing
Speaker 1: if you're just wearing black people don't notice that it's
Speaker 1: the same. I think that, um, there's um there is
Speaker 1: a very sort of ostentatious way of dressing it. Um.
Speaker 1: It's not the kind of look that I admire or
Speaker 1: but I do like people that have fun with it.
Speaker 1: You know, fashion is something to have fun with. I think, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is, you know, resources in the body. Well, I
Speaker 1: mean actually a lot of people have fun who don't
Speaker 1: have the body. And sometimes that's okay because they've learned
Speaker 1: to deal with it, you know, but compensated. You know.
Speaker 1: What I don't like to see is people that are
Speaker 1: a little older than they should be wearing you know,
Speaker 1: let's say, a very short skirt or something that's the Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you have those delineations in your mind? Yes, but yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah you shouldn't. I mean, you should be the age
Speaker 1: you are. It's nothing wrong with any age, even as
Speaker 1: old as me. You know. It's okay. It's funny how
Speaker 1: you say that, because I mean, I have simple and
Speaker 1: a very short I mean almost you could write it
Speaker 1: on the back of a napkin list of my fashion
Speaker 1: dues and don't for men, And whenever I see grown
Speaker 1: men with a baseball cap on backwards, I want to go, oh, no,
Speaker 1: you look like an idiot. Men's training to look boyish,
Speaker 1: the same women slating straining to look you know, younger
Speaker 1: than But I expect that more from women. Yeah, we've
Speaker 1: been meaning that that women are constantly being abused, if
Speaker 1: you will, by the notion that as they get older
Speaker 1: they're less desirable. They're not as you know, young and beautiful,
Speaker 1: and men trading in their wives for younger women. But men,
Speaker 1: I don't understand it if they worry about it all
Speaker 1: the time and then and then never again to feel
Speaker 1: comfortable in their own skin. And I think that's such
Speaker 1: a shame. I mean, I'm a great one for not
Speaker 1: believing in plastic surgery and things. You know, you were
Speaker 1: born in Wales and you grew up we were born
Speaker 1: and raised on the island in Wales. Yes, for yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't him come off the island for a very
Speaker 1: long time an island often yeah, but it was well no,
Speaker 1: actually the island I was born and was probably probably
Speaker 1: about the size of Manhattan. But um, but that was
Speaker 1: off another island, so it was you know, the island
Speaker 1: in Wales. The island I was born on was called
Speaker 1: Holy and that's off another island called Anglesey where is
Speaker 1: that what part of the country way north Wales? North Wales,
Speaker 1: right off the tip. And you left the island when
Speaker 1: you were how old? Um? I think I left when
Speaker 1: I was about seventeen eighteen. I guess to university. Oh no, please, no,
Speaker 1: I'm totally uneducated. Have no education. I have no education. Now.
Speaker 1: I went to school until I was like seventeen and
Speaker 1: a half or something. Did you graduate high school? Um?
Speaker 1: Pass on that. I didn't care. People bear their souls.
Speaker 1: I know, I know. That's why I'm joking. Actually, UM,
Speaker 1: I got scripture and art. Yes, I went to a
Speaker 1: convent and um, and it took me several times taking it,
Speaker 1: and I got scripture and art. I'm very, very very
Speaker 1: nervous when taking an exam, and I would sit down
Speaker 1: at the exam. Um, I put my pen to paper
Speaker 1: and I just simply couldn't write a word. So I
Speaker 1: failed all my exams. You know, I was. I was
Speaker 1: just like rigid with nerves. I'm a bit like that
Speaker 1: talking to people too, So I warn you. UM, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit better now than I was a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. So when you're there, you have
Speaker 1: how many siblings in your family? I had one sister
Speaker 1: and a sister and your parents. What did your dad
Speaker 1: do for a living on the island. My parents ran
Speaker 1: a small hotel right by the beach. It was really lovely. Um.
Speaker 1: It was kind of a holiday hotel that was only
Speaker 1: open in the summer months of tourism there in the summer.
Speaker 1: Well you know, bye bye bye Long Island standards now,
Speaker 1: but by I guess North Wales standards. Yes, So they
Speaker 1: had a business. They had a business. They had this
Speaker 1: little family hotel that was right practically on the beach,
Speaker 1: very small. I think about twenty people could stay. There
Speaker 1: was fashion clothing. I mean I have only the most
Speaker 1: tired images in my mind of it. Was your mother
Speaker 1: into clothing or someone into your family or was it
Speaker 1: Barbie or something whatever the equivalent was. I think, very
Speaker 1: kind of fashionable in you know, my grandmother was an
Speaker 1: opera singer. I wish I could sing. I wish I
Speaker 1: got something from her, but I didn't. Um and um.
Speaker 1: They had a sort of huge house on one side
Speaker 1: of the island. And then m and my father came
Speaker 1: from Derbyshire, which is northern Ish England, and they met
Speaker 1: and then they they ran this hotel and my mother
Speaker 1: was all the pictures I see of her in her youth.
Speaker 1: She was very she was very chic. But she used
Speaker 1: to make a lot of her clothes because I think
Speaker 1: there weren't too many shops there that sold high fashion,
Speaker 1: so so she she knitted a lot. She made her
Speaker 1: own clothes, and she always looked amazing that I remember.
Speaker 1: I mean, she wore suits and things. Although they know
Speaker 1: it's way in the country, and it was very dressed up,
Speaker 1: but it was that period, I suppose in the forties
Speaker 1: when people dressed up, they conscious they didn't wear jeans.
Speaker 1: I don't think jeans existed in those days. Well with
Speaker 1: cowboys hurting sheep maybe, but I think all of us have.
Speaker 1: Even when I was young, you know, my dad said
Speaker 1: to me when I was going to I was going
Speaker 1: to graduate from high school. And I grew up with
Speaker 1: a big family and my father was a school teacher
Speaker 1: and he had no money, you know, And he said
Speaker 1: to me, we're going to go to a store and
Speaker 1: we're gonna buy you a suit. And I bought this
Speaker 1: three piece suit back when people still wore three pieces.
Speaker 1: I bought a three piece suit from It was Pierre Cardin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but this was a discount place they sold discount, but
Speaker 1: even I could recognize what was beautiful. When did you
Speaker 1: start to not agonize what was beautiful? When did you
Speaker 1: start to decide you wanted to teach other people what
Speaker 1: was beautiful and dress other people? How did that? How
Speaker 1: did that begin? Well? I think it began because um,
Speaker 1: when I eventually left home and went to London, I then, um,
Speaker 1: I started modeling. So I was modeling for um ten
Speaker 1: years or so. So I was very immersed in the
Speaker 1: fashion world obviously there, and it was such a great
Speaker 1: time of fashion. It was the sixties, ah, and the
Speaker 1: whole ready to wear thing was beginning to happen, and
Speaker 1: it happened very strongly in London. I think London was
Speaker 1: a wonderful place to be at that point, and it
Speaker 1: was you know. Then I started obviously getting older towards
Speaker 1: the end of my twenties, and other people, like other models,
Speaker 1: famous models like Twigi came along and so um, I
Speaker 1: decided that maybe I should stop with this modeling lark
Speaker 1: and I got offered a job at Vogue. So I
Speaker 1: was pretty British. I was super lucky, and so that
Speaker 1: was in when I started there. So so that it's
Speaker 1: the way back. So I guess that's when I started
Speaker 1: telling people how to dress. I slightly used to tell
Speaker 1: people when I was modeling. It was a very different
Speaker 1: situation then too. Now you know, they didn't have these
Speaker 1: huge teams of people that they have now on a shoot. Um,
Speaker 1: why do you think it involved that? Why are there
Speaker 1: those huge teams of people? Know what happened? Um? There
Speaker 1: so much more at stake, so much more at stake,
Speaker 1: and time became money, and everything had to be done quicker.
Speaker 1: And you know, when I was modeling, you would go
Speaker 1: on a trip for two or three weeks, and even
Speaker 1: you know, through the first ten or fifteen years working
Speaker 1: at Vogue, and now it's two days if you're lucky,
Speaker 1: and you don't get further much than l a because
Speaker 1: you know, everything because everything is so so expensive. You know,
Speaker 1: photographers don't have the time, models don't have that. Nobody
Speaker 1: has the time. They don't have the time need to
Speaker 1: be well that they probably need to be on the
Speaker 1: other side of the Atlantic, and that happens all the time.
Speaker 1: They go from you know, and they zip, well, it's
Speaker 1: not even a question of going home. They barely have
Speaker 1: a home. Those poor girls you know, they literally a
Speaker 1: ripped from one airport to another and leap off a plane,
Speaker 1: are expected to look beautiful, and you have twenty four
Speaker 1: hours to Only you with any authority could say those
Speaker 1: poor girls, Well I've been in that position, those poor girls.
Speaker 1: You know. I've been in that position, so I know
Speaker 1: how tough it is, even if you're eighteen or whatever
Speaker 1: to get off a plane you've been flying for and
Speaker 1: feel fresh and you know, and everybody looking at you
Speaker 1: and expecting, and you know, I personally get off a
Speaker 1: flight and I feel all sort of puffy. And we're
Speaker 1: a little older than those girls. Yes I am. If
Speaker 1: you started in British Vogue what year so you're there in,
Speaker 1: how would you describe it? I only have ignorant references
Speaker 1: to like swing in London and what London was like
Speaker 1: that that was, you know, kind of full on swing
Speaker 1: while it was even it had been for a while.
Speaker 1: It was through the sixties, swinging cultural epicenter, music, art, fashion, everything.
Speaker 1: That's what was so fantastic. It was all relating to fashion,
Speaker 1: you know, it was everything was into relating fashion, and
Speaker 1: you know all that pop music and things are so great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well yeah, in this country, in the sixties, they shot
Speaker 1: the president, they shot his brother, and they shot Martin
Speaker 1: Luther King. Yeah that was over here, so London. You
Speaker 1: were having a good time and we were all having
Speaker 1: a great time, and we barely heard about that. You know,
Speaker 1: what kind of work were you doing at British Vogue?
Speaker 1: The same as I'm doing here. I was literally yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a fashion show. You started out as a fashioned,
Speaker 1: as a junior fashion editor, which simply meant I went
Speaker 1: a little slower than other people. And then I became
Speaker 1: a regular fashion editor, and um, then I was kind
Speaker 1: of the fashion editor, somewhat in charge, you know, the
Speaker 1: main one there for quite some time. And you were
Speaker 1: a British folk till when um I was there until
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I have seven You moved from London
Speaker 1: to New York. Whose idea was that, um, Calvin Klein, Um, Well,
Speaker 1: a lot of things kind of fell into place. UM.
Speaker 1: I had lost my mother shortly before, so until that time,
Speaker 1: I always felt I couldn't they still in Wales. Yeah,
Speaker 1: yes she was. Um. I had a nephew that I
Speaker 1: was bringing up and he was like twenty, so I
Speaker 1: felt I could leave. And I always wanted to come
Speaker 1: to America. Not always, but in the last of those
Speaker 1: three years in England, Um, I started looking to America
Speaker 1: and what was happening here and working with American photographers
Speaker 1: and namely Bruce Bruce Webber. Actually he's the one that
Speaker 1: kind of introduced me to this country, to the culture,
Speaker 1: to everything really, and I became really excited with it.
Speaker 1: And I also had a boyfriend who lived here, so
Speaker 1: I was kind of looking to come here. And it
Speaker 1: was a time where the editors changed at British Folk,
Speaker 1: and actually Anna Winter went there as as the editor,
Speaker 1: and she'd been a friend of mine for years, so
Speaker 1: that was kind of great that she came. But I
Speaker 1: just thought it was a good moment to move and
Speaker 1: I got offered this fantastic job at Calvin Klein. Like Calvin,
Speaker 1: I'm doing what I was. I was called design director,
Speaker 1: but I mean I wasn't designing. I was just UM
Speaker 1: in the design room working with all the team of people.
Speaker 1: And when the decision for Calvin for you to come here,
Speaker 1: so your British Vogue to working for a designer. You're
Speaker 1: out of Vogue publishing for a while, right, And how
Speaker 1: long are you with Calvin? Not very long? Because I
Speaker 1: really missed publishing. I mean, I I a do a Calvin.
Speaker 1: He's fantastic and he's you know, they're still good friends,
Speaker 1: and but I really missed. They involved doing a lot
Speaker 1: of different things, and um, I just felt that being
Speaker 1: in the same place and working with the same person,
Speaker 1: it was it was just not for me. And I
Speaker 1: don't think I was doing them any favors. How long
Speaker 1: did that last? A year and a half? Brief? And
Speaker 1: was the Vogue operation in the US had open arms
Speaker 1: for you, they were ready. Well what happened was right
Speaker 1: at that time is um Anna was given was made
Speaker 1: editor in chief of So you know, as soon as
Speaker 1: I got that news, I'm like yeah, And I called
Speaker 1: her up and said, um could I have my old
Speaker 1: job back, but at American back? And she said she
Speaker 1: was like very immediately she is I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you know her at all, but because she's
Speaker 1: you know, she doesn't did it around. She's she's very
Speaker 1: decisive and no kidding. She immediately said, yeah, I'm starting
Speaker 1: on Monday. Do you want to start with me? So
Speaker 1: I did? She was it timed up when she was
Speaker 1: crossing over, you were walking the door with her. Amazing
Speaker 1: and that was close. Yeah, yeah, it was. I'm not
Speaker 1: interested truly, and I'm loath to talk about she's a
Speaker 1: counterpart if you were to talk about Anna in the
Speaker 1: way that she's scrutinized in the media and so forth.
Speaker 1: But why do you think it was Anna viewed to
Speaker 1: forget about who she is and what her contribution to
Speaker 1: this is. But was she viewed the same over there
Speaker 1: as she was in the US, or when Anna came
Speaker 1: over to the US, did a different woman emerge? Because
Speaker 1: I was invited to have dinner at her house and
Speaker 1: I went with my wife and I She had a
Speaker 1: twenty people over to her house down there, and I
Speaker 1: was so thrilled because I was amazing host right that
Speaker 1: she was lovely, She's incredibly warm, and she's a fantastic host,
Speaker 1: and she makes everybody down to the smallest person feel
Speaker 1: you know, important and at home and things like that.
Speaker 1: So you know, she's this other persona that everybody seems
Speaker 1: to have about her. Is it's wrong? But I mean
Speaker 1: that said, is she at as your vogue And that's
Speaker 1: a big deal thing, you know, So before you even start,
Speaker 1: as you walk in the room, that's who you're going
Speaker 1: to meet with. Those responsibilities and that mantle too. You know.
Speaker 1: You know, I think she can be intimidating to people.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've just known her so long, so we
Speaker 1: get on really well. You know. That's not to say
Speaker 1: that I can push her push you know, push her around.
Speaker 1: I can't. Um, But um, I was hope. I was
Speaker 1: hoping you were going to say that you can. And
Speaker 1: how we play games with each other, I think a
Speaker 1: little bit, you know, Um, But at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, we respect each other. But you know, I
Speaker 1: push her as hard as I can, and she pushes
Speaker 1: me as hard as she can, you know, And it's
Speaker 1: a good game because you know, I think what comes
Speaker 1: out of it is something that's quite strong. Coming up,
Speaker 1: Grace Coddington talks about the one group of people she
Speaker 1: won't dress. As Cottington was making fashion come off the
Speaker 1: pages of American Vogue in the late nine nineties, a
Speaker 1: fictional TV character named Carrie Bradshaw was taking it to
Speaker 1: the streets. In the very beginning, we couldn't get our
Speaker 1: hands on anything. Nobody wanted to give us a thing, nobody,
Speaker 1: and we had a teeny teeny teeny. We talked about animic.
Speaker 1: We had a tiny tiny budget for the whole per episode,
Speaker 1: and it was about I think towards the end of
Speaker 1: the second or even the beginning of third season. I
Speaker 1: can't remember which that it was Fandy that loaned us
Speaker 1: a baguette and that was like the gateway. That was,
Speaker 1: you know, the floodwaters. Everything shifted to hear Sarah Jessica
Speaker 1: Parker reflect on the Sex and the City years. Take
Speaker 1: a listen and here's the thing. Dot Org. This is
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. Grace
Speaker 1: Cottington is the closest thing to fashion royalty that there
Speaker 1: is a successful British model turned fashion editor and creative
Speaker 1: director of American Vogue for more than two decades. But
Speaker 1: beneath her porcelain skin and iconic red hair, Cottington is
Speaker 1: still a shy English girl with a dream, pushing herself
Speaker 1: and everyone around her to aim higher. Much of her
Speaker 1: work can be seen in her most recent book, Grace
Speaker 1: the American Vogue Years. There are listeners can't see me
Speaker 1: do this, but I'm leaving through this book of yours
Speaker 1: and I want to go, who's this photographer for hair?
Speaker 1: Stephen mizel Is. There is Mizelle. I mean, I look
Speaker 1: at a picture like that which I can't describe to
Speaker 1: our That was the whole story we did on the twenties.
Speaker 1: And actually that's the story that UM appeared in the
Speaker 1: film that kind of made people know who I was
Speaker 1: the September issue, and that's that's the story that I
Speaker 1: am fighting for. One picture which is also in the
Speaker 1: book and I printed in the book, but it never
Speaker 1: made it in the magazine. Um, I'm fighting to keep
Speaker 1: this picture in and no, not that one. It's another
Speaker 1: one in the same story, UM, which it's all about
Speaker 1: the twenties, that story, and in September issue, you're fighting
Speaker 1: to keep this, to keep this one picture, I think
Speaker 1: it's the other way. You have to thumb the other way,
Speaker 1: and that's to keep And then, well, now I'm looking
Speaker 1: at it and I think, you know, maybe I shouldn't
Speaker 1: have put it in the book. I could not decide
Speaker 1: whether to put it in the book because largely everything
Speaker 1: in the book has been printed in the magazine, and
Speaker 1: it takes on once it's been printed. It takes on
Speaker 1: another life. Somehow, people recognize it, they know it, the
Speaker 1: picture becomes stronger because of it or whatever. So it's
Speaker 1: a funny thing. If they haven't, if it hasn't actually
Speaker 1: been printed, usually they disappeared into no man's land. But
Speaker 1: because of the movie, and I keep holding this picture
Speaker 1: up and you know, shouting and screaming and stamping my
Speaker 1: foot and complaining that it's been thrown out. But now
Speaker 1: as I look at it, and I look at that picture,
Speaker 1: for instance, to compared to the one over the page
Speaker 1: that you were looking at before the two ladies, which
Speaker 1: is part of the same story, the other picture is
Speaker 1: so much better, you know, it's more. Ultimately, all I
Speaker 1: can say is maybe, you know, maybe Annah was right,
Speaker 1: and she may which maybe Anna was right when she
Speaker 1: threw it out. Homogeneity of expression. All these women seem
Speaker 1: to be going through the same thing. When I connect
Speaker 1: with it, it's it's because I'm not into the clothing,
Speaker 1: women's clothing. I look at all this time, I go, oh,
Speaker 1: that all looks you know, I guess that turns on
Speaker 1: some kind of women should go for that. And I'm
Speaker 1: looking at the faces of these people who are obviously
Speaker 1: they're there for a reason, like, is there ever an
Speaker 1: idea that you're going to have clothing modeled by people
Speaker 1: when you cut the heads off, and don't even bother
Speaker 1: involving the expression of a woman's face. I think that, yes,
Speaker 1: And it's really important. I mean, for me, the casting
Speaker 1: of a photograph is the most important part of it,
Speaker 1: you know. So I see this and I go, oh
Speaker 1: my god, like look at her, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: how compelling, how strong, and all the whole thing is
Speaker 1: just it's all of one and the colors and the
Speaker 1: lipstick and the eyes, and I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: that's just gorgeous. The minesel that's here that I favored,
Speaker 1: the two women in the in the in the in
Speaker 1: the bar or whatever. The twenty shot that was shot
Speaker 1: where oh here in New York. And how long did
Speaker 1: it take to shoot that that one? Well, you know,
Speaker 1: it's always a series of pictures. It's like twelve fourteen
Speaker 1: pages or something, so that I think that was maybe
Speaker 1: a three day shoot a little bit, but you know
Speaker 1: these days it's never more than two days. The actual
Speaker 1: picture probably took I don't know, half an hour. Now.
Speaker 1: The obviously for that part of the process, well, obviously
Speaker 1: when you're you're including the faces and the and the mask,
Speaker 1: if you will, of the of the model and the
Speaker 1: work you do. Are there some women you've seen over
Speaker 1: the arc of your nearly fifty year career. I mean,
Speaker 1: when was the time you walk through the room and
Speaker 1: even just to yourself, said, oh my god, look at
Speaker 1: that woman. Miss you just really is such a creature.
Speaker 1: It does happen. No, no, no, it does give me one.
Speaker 1: It's probably not walking in a room. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I I recognized the beauties from I don't know, the
Speaker 1: runway or somewhere like that, or from other photographs maybe,
Speaker 1: But who's the most I wouldn't the most, but no, no,
Speaker 1: who's the newest person that I'm intrigued by. It's a
Speaker 1: young model called Natalie Westling West. Yeah, and then everybody
Speaker 1: will say she's she's an American. Um, but everybody thinks
Speaker 1: I only like her because she has a ton of
Speaker 1: red hair. So and so I suffer because I tend
Speaker 1: to like girls with red hair. It's just something I
Speaker 1: like about the coloring. So when a red haired person
Speaker 1: walks by, I do notice them. Do you ever think
Speaker 1: about dressing men? And well, I have to, particularly if
Speaker 1: you work with Bruce, you do, you know, But I
Speaker 1: usually actually in that case let him dress them because
Speaker 1: he's much better at it than me. I'm incredibly bad
Speaker 1: at dressing man. It scares me to dressed man. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know, I don't know why. I just I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't from something hanging on a hangar, see whether
Speaker 1: it's going to work on the guy or not. You know,
Speaker 1: I am when they're actually dressed in it, someone else
Speaker 1: has dressed them. I say, they either look right or
Speaker 1: they don't. But but um, you know, I tend to
Speaker 1: not like men to be too dressed up like a thing.
Speaker 1: I like them fantasy about simple. I have a fantasy
Speaker 1: about Anna. I have a fantasy that Anna was, assuming
Speaker 1: she was married, she has a daughter. Assume that if
Speaker 1: you dated Anna it would be just. It could be
Speaker 1: potentially painful. She'd be like, oh, Frank, don't wear that.
Speaker 1: Shut I'm not sure how she's right or whatever. That
Speaker 1: she gets involved in how we dress men in Vogue.
Speaker 1: Of course she does. The men are secondary in Vogue.
Speaker 1: The men are extras and there, and they're don't tell
Speaker 1: them that, I mean less. They get like it's a
Speaker 1: celebrity get only celebrity men. Get into voke that we
Speaker 1: don't work with male models at all, not even as
Speaker 1: props standing behind other women now truly true, true if
Speaker 1: you look through all those every time. As a famous guy, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's usually an actor. Actors do it better, you know
Speaker 1: then then, I mean better than you know. I worked
Speaker 1: with musicians too, but they're not used to being photographed
Speaker 1: or whatever, So it's easier to work with an actor.
Speaker 1: Why don't you get male models in there? Why they're
Speaker 1: used to having their picture taken? I know they are,
Speaker 1: but they're probably grateful, boring. You know that you get
Speaker 1: much more out of an actor, and there's a story
Speaker 1: to tell behind him. You know, that's always good too.
Speaker 1: I mean we work with people who have a film
Speaker 1: it's just about to come out or whatever. You know,
Speaker 1: there's usually a promotional otherwise they would never do. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's their favorite thing to do unless they're
Speaker 1: very young. When they're very young, it's it's kind of fine.
Speaker 1: I guess the term that's used to describe the work
Speaker 1: you do typically as editor, and so how would you
Speaker 1: describe it? What does it? What does an editor do? Um?
Speaker 1: What do I do? Yeah? We we do a lot
Speaker 1: of things. I mean editing is a small part of it.
Speaker 1: You know, we edit, you edit the clothes down to
Speaker 1: the ones that you want to photograph. Um And everything
Speaker 1: is around organizing a photographic shoots. So but we also
Speaker 1: know choose models, and choose photographers and choose the story
Speaker 1: we want to do. So it's not just cutting things down,
Speaker 1: it's also creating things. Who decides is on the cover
Speaker 1: of the magazine, um Anna, ultim you know, for every
Speaker 1: page of the magazine because ultimately it's it's done with
Speaker 1: her knowledge and obviously collaboration. So so ultimately it's the
Speaker 1: editor in chief of the magazine that makes the final decision,
Speaker 1: but also contributes along the way. You know, she doesn't
Speaker 1: We don't just do it and present it to her
Speaker 1: and she says yes or no. It's it's discussed all
Speaker 1: the way along at every stage. She's collaborative about it.
Speaker 1: Just as movie studios and producers and studio executives have
Speaker 1: records in which they you'll talk to the guy or
Speaker 1: the woman who said, oh, we passed on Jaws, you know,
Speaker 1: we passed on Star Wars. There's there's regrets that they
Speaker 1: have and where they got it wrong. Even though they've
Speaker 1: had great success, they don't always get it right. And
Speaker 1: does that happen with you and I'm assuming when you've
Speaker 1: been responsible for once once an example, something you think, God,
Speaker 1: I wish I could do that over again, something spectacular. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean I think that about every shoot I do.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, when when when I am packing
Speaker 1: up and we're getting back on the plane or whatever
Speaker 1: or driving back from a studio, I wish I'd say, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm just getting into you know, I'm just on a
Speaker 1: roll now, and I wish it could go on forever.
Speaker 1: And I because now I know that I would have
Speaker 1: not put those shoes or not done that, or you know,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have done the hair like that or something
Speaker 1: like that, and maybe that would have been better. And
Speaker 1: you're always asking maybe about every shoot. You know, if
Speaker 1: you're satisfied with something, it's it's usually not a good shoot,
Speaker 1: but you can feel good about it or bad about it.
Speaker 1: You know, hopefully you feel good about it when you finish.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about what two things have
Speaker 1: popped to mind here? Um? What is about Bruce Bruce Webber,
Speaker 1: the famous photographer and filmmaker. Um. I was delighted to
Speaker 1: get invited to Bruce's house. I know Bruce through my
Speaker 1: brother Billy, and when my brother, Billy was modeling for
Speaker 1: the first couple of years of his career. Um, uh,
Speaker 1: he knew Bruce. You know, Calvin Klein ads and so
Speaker 1: Bruce found a lot of young actors. I mean, he's
Speaker 1: amazing at how he hones in on those kids that are,
Speaker 1: you know, probably starting modeling because they can't go job
Speaker 1: something else. And uh and Bruce just see something and
Speaker 1: you know there's there's a list as long as my arm.
Speaker 1: I'm not good at remembering names, but you know when
Speaker 1: you look back at older pictures of his new son
Speaker 1: and say, oh my god, there's like Matt Dillon or
Speaker 1: sure exactly one. Yeah. Um, Bruce is such a a
Speaker 1: cuddly man. He's like the cuddliest man. As a photograph
Speaker 1: I had taken that I posted on my Instagram page
Speaker 1: of Bruce and I cuddling. We were in an opening
Speaker 1: or a premiere of something and he went and I
Speaker 1: put my head on his shoulder and I'm hugging Bruce.
Speaker 1: Like the moment you see Bruce, you want to get
Speaker 1: on the couch and women to squeeze him and let's say,
Speaker 1: let's pop some popcorn and watch a movie. You know,
Speaker 1: he's just the most adorable man you've ever met? What
Speaker 1: is it? I'm just using him as an example, meaning
Speaker 1: what's required in the world. You'd assume the girls, the girl,
Speaker 1: she fits the clothes, she looks right, there's lights as
Speaker 1: a camera. What does the photographer bring? I think, you know,
Speaker 1: each one obviously brings his own thing. I think what
Speaker 1: Bruce brought is he um. He came in to fashion
Speaker 1: photography at a time when everything was very kind of
Speaker 1: fake and painted, and you know, it was big shoulders
Speaker 1: and tough on, you know, the working woman kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And he broke all that and he you know, scrubbed
Speaker 1: all the makeup off and had tousled hair and and
Speaker 1: you know, preferred to photograph clothes that were vintage or
Speaker 1: that had a softness about them or romance about You
Speaker 1: were there to witness that when he was doing that.
Speaker 1: I was right alongside and he was doing that. Did
Speaker 1: you gasp or you're like, wow, that's the school. I
Speaker 1: was like, go bruiser, Yeah, grow bruiser, because I was
Speaker 1: loving it, you know, and then he kind of my
Speaker 1: my my idea at that time was it was a
Speaker 1: more sort of English vintage, and then he his was
Speaker 1: more American and American, Indian and things like they're all
Speaker 1: mixed in. And then there was the whole photographer culture
Speaker 1: of Edward Western and all those people that we're all
Speaker 1: inspirational to him, you know, and how they looked and
Speaker 1: how they lived their lives and how you know, he
Speaker 1: and he introduced me to all that, and that was
Speaker 1: so fascinating to me. Someone like him who has this
Speaker 1: great career. I mean, it's one of the you know
Speaker 1: that I don't I don't like this word. It's such
Speaker 1: a Trump word, but I'll use it now because we're
Speaker 1: in the age of Trump all these top top photography
Speaker 1: is one of the top photographers in the business. Um
Speaker 1: the eventually, you know, all things must pass. Or does
Speaker 1: Bruce adapt? Does Bruce do his thing? I think he's
Speaker 1: adapted and it's kind of rolled over. And I've actually
Speaker 1: done two books that the one you have here is
Speaker 1: the most recent one, but I did one before and
Speaker 1: and in the one before there was you see very
Speaker 1: much the older Bruce and now here's the newer Bruce.
Speaker 1: Where it's it is. You know, he does embrace celebrities
Speaker 1: without making them look like stand out. They just become
Speaker 1: part of the landscape in a way. That is kind
Speaker 1: of interesting. He um. His his photography is about what's
Speaker 1: happening all around you. You know, I'd like to think
Speaker 1: that we have um a fairly sophisticated listenership, not just
Speaker 1: in New York beyond and female. You know, I think
Speaker 1: I think men are less and that's not true. I
Speaker 1: guess men more and more and more, UM seek to
Speaker 1: inform themselves about clothes rather than have it passed on
Speaker 1: like by my dad, which was I think was my
Speaker 1: point was that was very common then taste and clothes
Speaker 1: was something you were instructed about it, rather than going
Speaker 1: out in the world and acquiring your own taste and
Speaker 1: UM in that way that I have had people say.
Speaker 1: Um Simon Dounan, I say to him, what's the tip
Speaker 1: for women? And he and whatever? His answer was, you know,
Speaker 1: bag shoes, you know, jack or whatever. You think you
Speaker 1: just spend the money on this and then fill it
Speaker 1: in with this. Do you have any such advice for
Speaker 1: women as to what to wear? What do you spend
Speaker 1: your money on? Um if their budget is somewhat limited,
Speaker 1: well by one thing that you absolutely love and you're
Speaker 1: going to wear more than once, So try to make
Speaker 1: something that's not too extreme, something that's by something more
Speaker 1: expensive that's going to last, because if it's cheap, it's
Speaker 1: probably not going to last. That's I mean, I would
Speaker 1: rather buy one very expensive sweater than six cheap ones
Speaker 1: that are can appeal. Well. If when you do retire,
Speaker 1: if the time comes at you retire, and if Anna
Speaker 1: decides to put you on the cover for your retirement
Speaker 1: and you need an actor to be on the cover
Speaker 1: with you, just as that furniture behind you exactly, I
Speaker 1: will put the suit on. I will be your furniture,
Speaker 1: your arm candy behind you on your real good cover.
Speaker 1: I'm just volunteering that now. I'm a big fan of yours, right,
Speaker 1: But thank you so much for doing this with us.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. It's fun. When speaking at Grace
Speaker 1: Cottington's seventie birthday five years ago, her longtime friend, colleague
Speaker 1: and editor in chief of American Vogue, Anna Winter called
Speaker 1: her the quote hardened soul of the magazine. It's guardian
Speaker 1: at the gate, it's beacon of excellence unquote. Learn more
Speaker 1: about Cottington's work in her most recent book, Grace the
Speaker 1: American Vague Years. This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing