Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And before
Speaker 1: we start today's podcast, we want to take a moment
Speaker 1: to acknowledge what is happening in our country right now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we recorded the episode that published on Monday, June one,
Speaker 1: before George Floyd was killed by police in Minneapolis. That
Speaker 1: of course, has catalyzed a nationwide protest against police brutality
Speaker 1: and racism. And we talk about racism all the time
Speaker 1: on this show. And while we are living in a
Speaker 1: time that feels to a lot of us unreal and unprecedented,
Speaker 1: events like this really are not that new. But historical
Speaker 1: knowledge does not make our current state of affairs any
Speaker 1: easier for the people who have been failed by our
Speaker 1: country over and over. So we wanted to say pretty
Speaker 1: clearly that has not been evident to people Black lives matter.
Speaker 1: So it feels a little bit strange to be putting
Speaker 1: out regular history shows now, but that is also still
Speaker 1: our job. And if you are not feeling it, we
Speaker 1: completely get it. So you can always hang onto this
Speaker 1: and uh come back to it when it feels like
Speaker 1: a better time. Yeah. This is an interview that was
Speaker 1: also recorded before these most recent events. It is a
Speaker 1: discussion with John Scott Dryden, who's the creator, writer and
Speaker 1: executive producer of the podcast To Mumbai. This is a
Speaker 1: historical fiction show that is set in an imagined city
Speaker 1: that's inspired by the mom Look culture, and John very
Speaker 1: kindly coordinated with Holly to do a transatlantic interview from
Speaker 1: his home in London and heads up in some ways
Speaker 1: this may be extra difficult because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: talk about the slavery of that culture, and John and
Speaker 1: I are definitely lighter in tone than we probably would
Speaker 1: have been had we recorded this a couple of weeks later.
Speaker 1: We recorded this back in May, also full disclosure. To
Speaker 1: Mumbai is a show that's also part of the I
Speaker 1: Heart Media podcast network. As we Are. It was originally
Speaker 1: made as a BBC production, but I Heart Media partnered
Speaker 1: with this project for worldwide distribution. So here's my chat
Speaker 1: with John Dryden. The first thing I want to ask
Speaker 1: you is have you always been interested in history? It's
Speaker 1: an interesting question. I haven't really thought about it, but
Speaker 1: I think probably I always have. I actually did do
Speaker 1: a history degree so that I haven't thought about it.
Speaker 1: I studied medieval trade and agriculture European, But I mean,
Speaker 1: I haven't sort of felt like I was a sort
Speaker 1: of history geek or anything. But I guess, um I
Speaker 1: probably was. And and um, and I've you know, I've
Speaker 1: always been fascinated particularly although I studied medieval history. I've
Speaker 1: always been fascinated, particularly by the Second World War. I've
Speaker 1: I've read a lot about that, And yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: we learned a lot of lessons from the past. My
Speaker 1: fascination with the Second World War is just how people's
Speaker 1: minds can be controlled on a population level in the
Speaker 1: way that you know, Nazi Germany did. And I guess
Speaker 1: my interest in history generally is what happens to people
Speaker 1: and how they think, and how that changes in different ages.
Speaker 1: I find it really interesting. Maybe this is kind of
Speaker 1: where history and drama kind of mold together. I'm really
Speaker 1: interested in what people's motivations are and and in different
Speaker 1: sort of historic periods, different things are acceptable and different
Speaker 1: things motivate people, and I find that kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean, just as an example in the world of
Speaker 1: to Mumbai, which is very much inspired by the mom
Speaker 1: looks of Egypt slavery was was a very The whole
Speaker 1: society was built on slaves that the mam look leaders
Speaker 1: came as slaves um and then took over at a
Speaker 1: certain point and became the rulers. The slaves became the rulers.
Speaker 1: But in that society, there's there's there are various documents
Speaker 1: that give you a sense of what daily life was
Speaker 1: like and and and having a slave and stuff. It
Speaker 1: was just considered the norm. And it's quite quite interesting.
Speaker 1: You can have a whole society that that doesn't really
Speaker 1: consider anything of something like that. You could get a
Speaker 1: bank loan, you know, to buy a slave, and it
Speaker 1: was it's all completely above board. There's like no morality
Speaker 1: questioning going on there at all. That's true. And and
Speaker 1: then if you look at society to stay, there's there's
Speaker 1: various things where we don't really question it either, you know,
Speaker 1: like the way we treat animals and stuff. You know.
Speaker 1: And maybe in years to come, people will look back
Speaker 1: on this period of history and think it's amazing that
Speaker 1: people didn't actually question that in any way. They didn't
Speaker 1: ask the question, they just accepted it. So that I
Speaker 1: guess that's my where I come from in terms of
Speaker 1: my interest in these periods. Do you remember how you
Speaker 1: first learned about the mom looks? Yeah. I mean I
Speaker 1: was aware of them, and that's because I was I
Speaker 1: was brought up in the Middle East. I was born
Speaker 1: in Kuwait. Actually my parents lived there, and we spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time in Egypt. So I was kind
Speaker 1: of aware of them, But I was also aware of
Speaker 1: how little they've been written about, and and it just
Speaker 1: always seemed like a kind of slightly fascinating little corner
Speaker 1: of history that no one had quite explored. Tombay is not,
Speaker 1: you know, is not about the Mamluck dynasty, but but
Speaker 1: so much of what we've got in this story is
Speaker 1: drawn from that period. And I guess what attracted me
Speaker 1: to that once I did hear about it um and
Speaker 1: started reading about it. It was a period of you know,
Speaker 1: just two and a half century reason where this group
Speaker 1: of people who were brought out over on a regular
Speaker 1: basis as as slaves, and they were actually a Turkish origin.
Speaker 1: They weren't Muslims, they were they were Christians, and they
Speaker 1: were brought over because they had this incredible you know,
Speaker 1: their prize for their fighting and their discipline and so
Speaker 1: they were brought over to be part of the army,
Speaker 1: and they were slaves. They were imported by the rulers
Speaker 1: of the time, and then at a certain point around
Speaker 1: twelve fifty day, they seized power for themselves. So they
Speaker 1: were then in control for about in a two and
Speaker 1: a half centuries. And during this time it was just
Speaker 1: extraordinarily brutal. It was it was all about power. There
Speaker 1: was a fifty year period where there were fifty three
Speaker 1: different sultans, you know, they were they were You didn't
Speaker 1: last very long if you were the sultans. So there
Speaker 1: was there was a lot of people trying to, you know,
Speaker 1: take control. But at the same time, i'm the empire
Speaker 1: and the city of Cairo, where which was essentially they're
Speaker 1: sort of headquarters, thrived and at a certain point of
Speaker 1: that period it was the wealthiest place on the planet
Speaker 1: to be and so attracted people from everywhere else from
Speaker 1: people came from Europe, from Asia, from the rest of
Speaker 1: the Middle East to be there in this city, and
Speaker 1: so it was a remarkably cosmopolitan place people came to
Speaker 1: make their fortunes and and so that as a as
Speaker 1: a society and a world um and and the city
Speaker 1: was hugely fascinating to me, and so I read more
Speaker 1: and more about it, and I guess that was the
Speaker 1: inspiration for, you know, for this dramatic story that we
Speaker 1: said in that society. Yeah, at what point did you realize, like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is going to be the primary thing I pulled
Speaker 1: from to build this world that I'm building. I guess
Speaker 1: it was a biography that I read of the city
Speaker 1: of Cairo that had a chat to only a chapter
Speaker 1: actually about the mom looks, and I think all the
Speaker 1: kind of political intrigue and skullduggery and the grandeur of
Speaker 1: it all just really appeal to me as a world
Speaker 1: that could be built out as a thrilling drama. Um,
Speaker 1: you obviously read a lot for your own pleasure, clearly,
Speaker 1: But will you talk about when you shift gears and
Speaker 1: it becomes a little bit about drawing from historical sources
Speaker 1: to inform your work. What that research process is like
Speaker 1: or is it kind of the same thing. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's kind of the same thing. I find if
Speaker 1: I'm if I'm reading for research, I can never quite
Speaker 1: get the thing that I'm after, So I tend to
Speaker 1: not do it very diligently. I just read stuff for interest,
Speaker 1: and then something will stick in my mind, and if
Speaker 1: it does, I'll write it down and build from that.
Speaker 1: And I mean once we we pitched and sold the
Speaker 1: series and we found someone to to fund it, there's
Speaker 1: then also the pressure of having to deliver something. And
Speaker 1: one of the decisions we made really early on was
Speaker 1: not to root it too specifically in this mam look world,
Speaker 1: because it would in a sense tie us down to
Speaker 1: many things. And what we wanted to create was more
Speaker 1: of a House of Cards type story of political intrigue
Speaker 1: and draw on that world, but not be bound by it.
Speaker 1: And it's also you know, the religion is obviously a
Speaker 1: big part of that society at that time, and we
Speaker 1: wanted that, but we didn't want to be drawn on
Speaker 1: the specifics of any one religion. So so one decision
Speaker 1: we made fairly early on with Tuman Bay was to
Speaker 1: create a world that is essentially fictional, that has its
Speaker 1: own language and religion and customs, but is drawn from
Speaker 1: that world. So we were kind of fortunate not, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of our research, not to have to follow
Speaker 1: anything through in too much detail. We could allow ourselves
Speaker 1: the luxury of inventing as well. I was going to
Speaker 1: ask you how much you take liberty with historical accuracy,
Speaker 1: but you kind of answered that. So now I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if you had to give a rough percentage of like
Speaker 1: how much of the show is pretty true to historical
Speaker 1: record versus how much is this fictional, fantastical world you've created, Like,
Speaker 1: what's the breakdown there? Well, we've always approached it episode
Speaker 1: by episode and within a season story arc, and we're
Speaker 1: thinking character and drama and what can happen to these
Speaker 1: characters and who can do what, and that's how that's
Speaker 1: our process. But when I look back on the episodes
Speaker 1: and see how much real history there is in there,
Speaker 1: I'm quite amazed that there's a huge amount. And I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's because the stuff we've been reading
Speaker 1: just kind of seeps in in a weird sort of
Speaker 1: way that we're not quite realizing, but so much of
Speaker 1: it is is there even quite a lot of the
Speaker 1: characters are based on real people. I mean, maybe it's
Speaker 1: because we will. We chose this world, and it was
Speaker 1: quite a fortunate society to pick on, because a lot
Speaker 1: of what goes on in um in Mamlock society and
Speaker 1: in this period, it feels incredibly modern. And we wanted
Speaker 1: to Mumbai to be set in a period other than
Speaker 1: our world, but to have all sorts of modern resonances.
Speaker 1: And when I look at Cairo, you know, this this
Speaker 1: wealthy place, um in the middle of the thirteenth century.
Speaker 1: So many of the things that they're dealing with, like
Speaker 1: air pollution, you know, traffic control, postal services, how to
Speaker 1: get things to people, banking mortgages, I mean, doctors used
Speaker 1: to make patients sign disclaimers before performing an operation in
Speaker 1: case they got sued. Traders selling on credit. You could
Speaker 1: buy a slave in installments if you wanted all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. It's just all there, and and it
Speaker 1: feels very contemporary, you know. Um. And so it wasn't
Speaker 1: that we deliberately tried to make it an accurate historical drama.
Speaker 1: But because it isn't, it's all fiction. But a lot
Speaker 1: of what we've got in there ended up being true
Speaker 1: to this period. Um. Were there any challenges in integrating
Speaker 1: that history into the narrative, Like did it ever kind
Speaker 1: of roadblock you in a way or did it flow
Speaker 1: so naturally that it was just part of the story
Speaker 1: without effort. We we always pursued the story first, even
Speaker 1: if there was no kind of historical precedent for it
Speaker 1: at all. Um, But there was stuff that we found.
Speaker 1: So I think the history actually enhanced it in many
Speaker 1: ways because there would be things that we read where
Speaker 1: we thought, oh, that's good, and it would just slot
Speaker 1: into the drama so well. Um, for instance, you know,
Speaker 1: in in this particular culture it was, it was an
Speaker 1: Islamic culture, the depiction of human form in any way
Speaker 1: it was forbidden. So within the palace, once they became
Speaker 1: once this this slave dynasty, once they got used to
Speaker 1: the comforts and stuff like that, there were sort of
Speaker 1: princes and princesses and stuff like that. And the princesses
Speaker 1: were not allowed baby dolls because that is in a
Speaker 1: depiction of human form, So they would take babies from
Speaker 1: the slaves who could then become the dolls of children
Speaker 1: in the harem and um. And so these young princesses
Speaker 1: would you know, would comb the hair and plait the
Speaker 1: hair and dress them up real babies so close for them,
Speaker 1: and and sometimes they'd survive these the slave babies and
Speaker 1: become quite important in their own right. You know, that's
Speaker 1: quite extraordinary. And and so there's things like that that
Speaker 1: we're real that we were able to include into the story. Now,
Speaker 1: when you set out to do a fictional but historical show,
Speaker 1: were you anticipating that that would just have an audience? Like,
Speaker 1: how much did you trust that history would have a
Speaker 1: wide appeal to listeners. We trusted a lot that audiences
Speaker 1: would like history. I mean, at the time that we
Speaker 1: started making this, Game of Thrones was was hugely popular.
Speaker 1: It was commissioned by the BBC, so they had an
Speaker 1: audience that we knew were interested in history from their research.
Speaker 1: We didn't really see it as a historical show. Um.
Speaker 1: We saw it as a fast paced thriller, epic adventure
Speaker 1: that was set in a different society to the one
Speaker 1: we're living in. But we also wanted it to resonate
Speaker 1: with today. So a lot of things that were going
Speaker 1: on when season one was made, like isis and that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and so it was was reflected in
Speaker 1: in this um. But we we I guess we felt
Speaker 1: that if the story was exciting enough and the characters
Speaker 1: were relatable enough, people would be interested in it, whether
Speaker 1: it was history or not. But in answer to your question,
Speaker 1: I think people are interested in history. I mean, you
Speaker 1: look at the success of you know, Wolf Hall and
Speaker 1: some of those those stories that really do tell a
Speaker 1: real history, not just inspired by history, that they have
Speaker 1: big audiences. One thing that often happens with us because
Speaker 1: I feel like people that like history really like history,
Speaker 1: so topic, a topic will come up for us and
Speaker 1: someone will be like, oh, this is actually my area
Speaker 1: of special interest in they'll share their information or their
Speaker 1: research with us that maybe wasn't something that came up
Speaker 1: on an episode or whatever. Do you hear from listeners
Speaker 1: who are history buffs who are ready to talk about
Speaker 1: Cairo during this period, or the mom looks or any
Speaker 1: of the other elements that have made it in fictionalized
Speaker 1: form into your show. Yeah, we do. And I'm always
Speaker 1: quite surprised by that because I feel that there's nothing
Speaker 1: about our series that is, you know, that accurate in
Speaker 1: terms of historical accuracy. And we've had quite a few
Speaker 1: people who have been academics, you know, working in university
Speaker 1: studying this period have asked us questions about it, and
Speaker 1: you know, for their research, wanting to know what we've
Speaker 1: read and how we've got to this and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sure they take it as a as
Speaker 1: a piece of fiction. But I think on the whole,
Speaker 1: the people that have approached and contacts us about the
Speaker 1: series are delighted, you know, that history can be used
Speaker 1: in this way and can reach an audience maybe that
Speaker 1: wouldn't have known about this period and have subsequently become
Speaker 1: interested in it. That's the kind of message that we're
Speaker 1: getting from them. I bet it's also kind of fascinating
Speaker 1: for them to see kind of a different perspective than
Speaker 1: someone who is strictly an academic, Like someone that has
Speaker 1: taken in the information and then interpreted it artistically may
Speaker 1: shed light on it in a way that they're not
Speaker 1: used to when they're just dealing with the academic side
Speaker 1: of it. I think that's right. Yeah, I mean most
Speaker 1: of what I've read of this period is quite dry reading,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's it's very well researched, but
Speaker 1: it it doesn't quite conjure up a world or or
Speaker 1: take you to that place. Um. Yeah, So I mean
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say we've been contacted by hundreds of historians,
Speaker 1: you know, but but maybe you know half a dozen,
Speaker 1: and they all seem, you know, pretty thrilled with it.
Speaker 1: So that's very cool. Um, And this show has is
Speaker 1: now it's gone on four seasons. We haven't gotten it
Speaker 1: globally the fourth season that will come out in later
Speaker 1: this summer. But I wonder as you go on season
Speaker 1: to season and story arc to story arc, if it
Speaker 1: gets harder or easier to think about the historical inspiration
Speaker 1: from it. Does it, as you mentioned with those that
Speaker 1: sort of harrowing story of of babies being used as toys,
Speaker 1: does it kind of blossom into new ideas or do
Speaker 1: you sometimes go, uh, we gotta come up with something,
Speaker 1: and we're going to have to not pay as much
Speaker 1: attention to the history on this one. I guess there's
Speaker 1: a bit of that. But we're always surprised at how
Speaker 1: the history keeps, you know, turning up new stuff. Um,
Speaker 1: the recent season has a whole kind of history of
Speaker 1: assassins who you know, basically were invented in that period,
Speaker 1: and that's something we hadn't really touched on before. Also plagues,
Speaker 1: you know, which again so much resonance with today. And
Speaker 1: then you know, so we're constantly surprised how things that
Speaker 1: we're just kind of reading about with something thing, oh,
Speaker 1: I actually know that, you know, why didn't we find
Speaker 1: that before? Because suddenly it seems incredibly relevant today. But
Speaker 1: we did, as I mentioned, not want to root it
Speaker 1: absolutely in that period, so we kind of flirted with
Speaker 1: a slightly um, I wouldn't say supernatural element to it,
Speaker 1: but these this this period was quite a superstitious, superstitious time,
Speaker 1: and people believed in omens and and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: So we have touched on characters that have dreams, that
Speaker 1: maybe have prophetic powers that that sort of thing, but
Speaker 1: we've never gone completely down that route of making and
Speaker 1: having dragons or anything like that. It's always been kind
Speaker 1: of rooted in reality. But because of the world that
Speaker 1: they live in, they believe in in these omens and prophecies,
Speaker 1: and sometimes they're so cryptic that you don't really know
Speaker 1: if that and that they end up being true or not,
Speaker 1: because the prophecy could have meant one thing or the other.
Speaker 1: So we've got, you know, quite a lot of that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think we do keep when whenever we're
Speaker 1: stuck for story, we go back to the history and
Speaker 1: we we we sort of me and my co writer
Speaker 1: say let's let's go away for a week and just
Speaker 1: read some stuff, and we always get inspired by that.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean at one point in season three,
Speaker 1: we flirted with it being more science fiction. Um that
Speaker 1: there is a real sense that this world might exist,
Speaker 1: not just in the future, but might be a world
Speaker 1: that exists in not just in the past, but might
Speaker 1: be a world that exists in the future or on
Speaker 1: a different planet. Um. You don't really know where to
Speaker 1: Mumbai is, but it adheres to the rules of this
Speaker 1: this history. Whenever we've gone down that kind of more
Speaker 1: science fictionally route, and there are certain sort of odd
Speaker 1: things about this world. There's two moons, for instance, we
Speaker 1: kind of want to just keep making it slightly off,
Speaker 1: you know. But whenever we've gone too far down a
Speaker 1: science fictionally route, we've always uh rather regretted it back.
Speaker 1: So we've written ourselves into a corner. Um. Yeah, as
Speaker 1: soon as there's going to be spaceships or space you know,
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff, there's nothing into Mumbay seems
Speaker 1: to matter anymore, and we want everything in the political intrigue,
Speaker 1: that the lives of these people to really matter. So
Speaker 1: we've always resisted that, although you know, there have been
Speaker 1: times where it's been quite tempting to go off in
Speaker 1: that direction. And I can assure you with season four
Speaker 1: we have, We've we've gone right back to the real world.
Speaker 1: Are there any other historical events or periods that you
Speaker 1: think would be fun to explore through fiction and do
Speaker 1: a similar project? I mean, I think all of it really. Um.
Speaker 1: I think because I work in in fiction, what I'm
Speaker 1: looking for is good characters having to make difficult moral decisions,
Speaker 1: and I think most periods of history would interest me
Speaker 1: in that respect. I'm not sure I would jump straight
Speaker 1: into another historical epic. It sounds like you're kind of
Speaker 1: ready to do some hard sci fi. Yeah, I probably am. Well.
Speaker 1: I did do this UM series Passenger List, which was
Speaker 1: about plane that went missing, and that was, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of refreshingly different from me. But actually no, not really.
Speaker 1: I mean most of what I've done has been contemporary
Speaker 1: contemporary thrillers is basically what I write. So in some
Speaker 1: ways Tim Bay was the exception for me. But but
Speaker 1: I love all I love watching all that stuff. You know.
Speaker 1: Rome was a great TV series, and I love the
Speaker 1: way they weaved in you know, the history with the characters.
Speaker 1: But rather rather kind of underrated series, I feel, I
Speaker 1: think it was just one of the best. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I'm sure I would do another historical one. It's the
Speaker 1: right idea presented itself, and with Tombay, it's it's kind
Speaker 1: of an extraordinary journey because you know, when we first
Speaker 1: pitched it, which was about two thousand and fifteen, we
Speaker 1: didn't expect it to have such a long journey. It
Speaker 1: was just one season story. Um, it's now gone on
Speaker 1: to four seasons and the fourth season will be the last,
Speaker 1: although it's possible there may be sort of spin off
Speaker 1: stories with characters from from that universe. But it's also
Speaker 1: you know, lad to there's a TV an animated TV
Speaker 1: show in development set in that universe. And we've written
Speaker 1: a book, Funny Enough, which is about to come out,
Speaker 1: which is a novel set in the to Embay universe
Speaker 1: and roughly follows the story of the first season. And
Speaker 1: we're in the process of writing a second book. So
Speaker 1: there'll be another one coming out next year. Oh, not
Speaker 1: just a book, but a book series has been spawned. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we never expected it to come out, you know,
Speaker 1: we never expected, you know, out of that one idea
Speaker 1: all this stuff would emerge. Yeah. Now do you anticipate,
Speaker 1: and you may not know the answer to this yet,
Speaker 1: that that second book will follow roughly the narrative of
Speaker 1: the second season, or is it going to go in
Speaker 1: a different direction. It's going to follow roughly the narrative
Speaker 1: of the second season. So is it sort of a
Speaker 1: companion novel that will enrich the podcasts story? Yes? Yes, perfect.
Speaker 1: I mean they s on their own, and they go
Speaker 1: much deeper than you could in an audio drama. I
Speaker 1: think the whole world is realized more completely in the
Speaker 1: novel than than it ever could be in the audio.
Speaker 1: Are there any big differences in how you approach the
Speaker 1: novel in terms of your use of history in it
Speaker 1: versus what you're doing in an audio drama where you
Speaker 1: don't really have as much space to flesh out, you know,
Speaker 1: some of the locations, etcetera. With descriptors. Does that harken
Speaker 1: back a little bit more to history or are you
Speaker 1: still pretty free with it? I'd like to say it
Speaker 1: was more so the thorough intest, but no, we were
Speaker 1: pretty free with it. We went again for the the
Speaker 1: characters and the drama of the situation they were in.
Speaker 1: So the book is out now so people can dive
Speaker 1: right into it if they want to. Is that pretty
Speaker 1: much a case of it's available everywhere? Yeah, it's available
Speaker 1: in hardback and kindle and the paper that comes out
Speaker 1: I think in a few months time. Cool its published
Speaker 1: by a Ryan so it should be available everywhere. It's
Speaker 1: definitely available on Amazon, and I should imagine it will
Speaker 1: be in most bookshops. And what's the full title of it.
Speaker 1: The full title is The City of a Thousand Faces,
Speaker 1: The Epic of Two Mumbai. Cool. Um, here's a weird question.
Speaker 1: Since this is a tie into a podcast, are you
Speaker 1: doing an audiobook of it? Yeah, there's an audiobook as well,
Speaker 1: so that's so that's inaudible. Um, we didn't have anything
Speaker 1: to do with that that the publishers always do that
Speaker 1: with books. But it's great. I've heard sort of extracts
Speaker 1: from it. Yes, it's a complete audio reading of the book.
Speaker 1: It's read by an actress called Claire Corbett. She's great.
Speaker 1: It's really sort of an interesting idea. Right. We are
Speaker 1: in the midst of kind of a weird time historically,
Speaker 1: and it's a nice thing that people have at their leisure,
Speaker 1: the opportunity to really just completely immerse in this world
Speaker 1: that you have created, which is so compelling. Like right
Speaker 1: out of the first episode of season one of two Mambay.
Speaker 1: The first time I heard it, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: holy Moses, like you're in So it's kind of nice
Speaker 1: that you've built this whole little sort of reprieve for
Speaker 1: everyone if they want to just go escape for a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. I mean that that is the idea, that
Speaker 1: it should feel like such a complete world with its
Speaker 1: own set of rules and and it's populated with people
Speaker 1: that you might like or dislike. Um, but yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: certainly with the audio drama, that the idea was to
Speaker 1: get completely immersed, to get the audience completely immersed. And
Speaker 1: I think definitely, in the world we're living in, it's
Speaker 1: quite nice to escape. It's like being transported to somewhere
Speaker 1: completely different. It really is. Yeah. I think I described
Speaker 1: the podcast the first time I heard it as the
Speaker 1: most visually colorful podcast I had ever heard, just because
Speaker 1: it is so rich. You know, I listened to a
Speaker 1: lot of podcasts for work, and I just felt like
Speaker 1: you kind of do. Even though it is all audio,
Speaker 1: you get a sense of what this world would look
Speaker 1: like and smell like and feel like. So bravo to
Speaker 1: you for that because it came off beautifully. You know.
Speaker 1: One of the things with it was, and this may
Speaker 1: as a sort of directed producer. I listened to a
Speaker 1: lot of fiction as well, and so much of it
Speaker 1: seems to depend just on the words and what what
Speaker 1: I wanted to do with to Mumbai. The the fiction
Speaker 1: podcast is is make it kind of effortless that you
Speaker 1: feel that the world is kind of all there without
Speaker 1: having to worry about what specifically as that sound, or
Speaker 1: or have a character tell you exactly what something is.
Speaker 1: I wanted it to kind of wash over the audience
Speaker 1: and if you let yourself be drawn into that, then
Speaker 1: it is a kind of effortless experience. You're us in
Speaker 1: that world and you're looking around and seeing these different
Speaker 1: situations unfold. That was what I was after rather than
Speaker 1: you know, I think explaining things a lot can be
Speaker 1: quite tiring to listen to. Yeah, I wanted it to
Speaker 1: be more something that you could experience. Well, mission accomplished.
Speaker 1: Thank you, John, Thank you so much for spending this
Speaker 1: time with me. I so appreciate it. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: for the opportunity, Holly. You know, it's great, great to
Speaker 1: talk to you. I think John at the end of
Speaker 1: that interview, but I just want to make sure we
Speaker 1: thank him again for spending time with me again back
Speaker 1: in May to talk about Two Monday and his love
Speaker 1: of history and how that project has blossomed. To me,
Speaker 1: it is really sort of magical that a historical fiction
Speaker 1: podcast has also now become a book series, a television
Speaker 1: series and development, etcetera. You can listen to seasons one, two,
Speaker 1: and three of Two Monday now on the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever it is you listen,
Speaker 1: just like is the case with our show, and season
Speaker 1: four of Two Monday will come out later this summer. Again.
Speaker 1: That book is titled The City of a Thousand Faces,
Speaker 1: and it is available now both as a hardback, as
Speaker 1: a kindle book, and as an audio book. And when
Speaker 1: I mentioned there at the end that he had created
Speaker 1: this world that one could escape into, I was, of
Speaker 1: course talking about the pandemic, not knowing what was about
Speaker 1: to unfold. How you deal with current events is different
Speaker 1: for everyone, so you may or may not want to
Speaker 1: think about things that you can escape into. And this
Speaker 1: is certainly a time when we hope that everyone is
Speaker 1: actively engaged in the ways that suit them best. Uh.
Speaker 1: I have a little bit of listener mail that diverges
Speaker 1: pretty greatly from this I'd like to hear it, so
Speaker 1: it'll be a little light ending to it. Um. This
Speaker 1: is about our very recent episode on Canary Row. We've
Speaker 1: gotten some really fun emails about Canary Row, for which
Speaker 1: I think everybody that did it. Um. This is from
Speaker 1: our listener Julie, who says, I'm so excited that you
Speaker 1: did a show today on Canary Row and Monterey. My
Speaker 1: first job out of college was working at the registrar's
Speaker 1: office at the Naval Postgraduate School. I worked in Herman Hall,
Speaker 1: which is the historic Hotel del Monte. Today the building
Speaker 1: is used for administrative offices for the school, but it
Speaker 1: is also still a working hotel under Navy Gateway in
Speaker 1: in suites. I have stayed there many times since leaving Monterey,
Speaker 1: and it's a treat. You do need to be affiliated
Speaker 1: with the military to stay there. Though the old hotel
Speaker 1: building is opulent and beautiful, it's neat to explore. Is
Speaker 1: there at least a dozen ways to get to any
Speaker 1: single room or office. My office was in the basement
Speaker 1: of the building, which was still lovely. There is a
Speaker 1: bar in the basement of the hotel called the Trident
Speaker 1: Room that opened around three pm every day. I sat
Speaker 1: at the registrar window where students could come and add
Speaker 1: and drop classes, and my days went to five pm.
Speaker 1: And more than once a student who had enjoyed the
Speaker 1: Trident room a little too much, wandered around the corner,
Speaker 1: discovered our office and asked me about changing grades. I
Speaker 1: have many dear memories of working at NPS, and I
Speaker 1: even met my husband at a new student orientation in
Speaker 1: the ballroom of Herman Hall. At the time, I had
Speaker 1: a personal rule against dating any military officer students because
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be a military spouse and get
Speaker 1: uprooted every few years. Well, I have been a Navy
Speaker 1: spouse for eight years and I have lived all around
Speaker 1: the country and loved it. Thank you for the podcast.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed reading a little more about what's
Speaker 1: going on these days at Hotel del Monte. Julie, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Congratulations eight years later on your wedding. Um,
Speaker 1: thank you for sharing this little bit of history. I
Speaker 1: have suspected that it is probably really, really beautiful inside
Speaker 1: that building still, so it's good to hear that that
Speaker 1: is in fact the case. If you would like to
Speaker 1: write to us, you can do so at History Podcast.
Speaker 1: At i heeart radio dot com. You can also find
Speaker 1: us everywhere on social media as Missed in History. You
Speaker 1: can subscribe to the podcast anywhere you listen, that includes
Speaker 1: the I heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, and everywhere else.
Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of
Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. H