Speaker 1: High Bechtel Cast listeners. This is Gen and this is Caitlin,
Speaker 1: So we just wanted to do a quick explainer at
Speaker 1: the top of this episode. We're doing something a little
Speaker 1: different this time. UM. We're covering Tangerine, a movie that
Speaker 1: you know us. We have a lot of blind spots
Speaker 1: going into analyzing this movie, so we wanted to get
Speaker 1: a number of perspectives on it. UM, so you will
Speaker 1: hear not one, but three different guests today. Kai choice
Speaker 1: is with us for the majority of the episode, but
Speaker 1: we also have UM analyzes and input from two other
Speaker 1: incredible guests, Dhalia Bell and Violet Gray. So look forward
Speaker 1: to that. And I guess it's also worth stating that
Speaker 1: we talked with Um Dahlia and with Violet after the
Speaker 1: recording of this original episode. Yes, so UM enjoy the episode.
Speaker 1: On the Doe Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women and um are all they're just gassions, just boyfriends
Speaker 1: and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef
Speaker 1: in best start changing it with the Beckdel Cast. Hello
Speaker 1: and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante.
Speaker 1: My name is Jamie loftus. It's us. This is our podcast.
Speaker 1: This is our feminist movie podcast, where we lead our
Speaker 1: discussion and our analysis using the Bechtel test, which is
Speaker 1: a media test made by queer writer Alison Bechtel, sometimes
Speaker 1: called the Bechtel Wallace test. But Caitlin, it's been a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. What is the Bechdel test? Simply don't
Speaker 1: remember she is? I'll see if I can remember. Um. Now,
Speaker 1: historically we have and many people have used a version
Speaker 1: of the Bechtel test. That it's funny to use the
Speaker 1: word historically in as it pertains to us a show
Speaker 1: that's been on for four years historically though, No, historically,
Speaker 1: I see where're going, I see whe're going this than
Speaker 1: you so much. But like with us, and then also
Speaker 1: on a larger scale, many people use the Becktel tests
Speaker 1: in terms of do two women speak to each other?
Speaker 1: That's what we've always said. Now, in in our ongoing
Speaker 1: effort to be more inclusive, we are adjusting the way
Speaker 1: we see the Bechtel test, and rather than two women
Speaker 1: or two female identifying characters speaking to each other about
Speaker 1: something other than a man, the version of the test
Speaker 1: that we are going to use moving forward is two
Speaker 1: people of any marginalized gender. So that includes women, that
Speaker 1: includes non binary people, that includes intersex people, that includes
Speaker 1: trans men speak to each other about something other than
Speaker 1: a cyst man that says maya, because if there's anything
Speaker 1: we don't need more of in cinema, says its men. Right,
Speaker 1: So that is our back tests moving forward. Uh, shall
Speaker 1: we try to make it pass? Okay? Yes, okay, this
Speaker 1: is a special dystopian edition of Betel Test. Ready, Uh,
Speaker 1: let's run it, hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie, I don't know why,
Speaker 1: but the National Guard just flew a drone over my house.
Speaker 1: Just something terrifying to think about. Um, then we're talking
Speaker 1: about a drone that's an example of the mental test
Speaker 1: being passed. Yeah, that is scary. We live in a
Speaker 1: police state and um fuck the police. Defund the police. Yes,
Speaker 1: if you, if you, if you're pro cop log out, yeah,
Speaker 1: go do some reading. Anyways. Um, yes, I'm very excited
Speaker 1: for the movie that we're covering today. This has been
Speaker 1: a long time coming. We've been talking about covering this
Speaker 1: movie for a long time. Um, but I'm glad we're
Speaker 1: doing that. We'recovering Tangerine, Yes, we are, and we have
Speaker 1: a guest with us as always a special guest. He
Speaker 1: is a comedian podcaster host of Women Who Kill podcast
Speaker 1: It's Kai Choice. How's it going? It is? It's it's going,
Speaker 1: it is, it is going. That feels like, yeah, it
Speaker 1: feels like the right. But was that a real That
Speaker 1: was a real drone? That wasn't a bit that actually
Speaker 1: happened to you know. I was on the phone with
Speaker 1: Caitlin before you jumped on the zoom call and it
Speaker 1: was like it became really loud all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: and I looked out the window and there was just
Speaker 1: a gigantic, like low flying drone just going over my
Speaker 1: neighborhood that I need to do some googling about. I
Speaker 1: was like, I thought, are they still here? Like I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it was very close and very
Speaker 1: I've never seen one in real life me either. Yeah,
Speaker 1: shaken to my core. I mean, hopefully by the time
Speaker 1: this episode airs, I will know more, but given who knows, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you'll be fine. Keep us posted, Yeah, I will. Were
Speaker 1: excited terrifying drones aside. We're happy we're here. Yes, like
Speaker 1: we said, we're so excited to cover Tangerine Kai. What
Speaker 1: is your relationship with this film. I love this movie.
Speaker 1: I saw this movie for the first time a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, and the only thing that made me
Speaker 1: want to watch it was, well, the plot sounds crazy,
Speaker 1: but also I heard they shot it on an iPhone,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I need to see how terrible
Speaker 1: this is. And it wasn't. It's great. No, It's like
Speaker 1: I I think that if I didn't know that this
Speaker 1: movie was shot on an iPhone going into my first viewing,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have guessed it. I would I would have
Speaker 1: been like, oh, it looks like a d I Y movie,
Speaker 1: But I never would have guessed it was shot on
Speaker 1: an iPhone. Yeah, I would have thought they just they
Speaker 1: did something weird to stylize it. I'm like, no, that's
Speaker 1: that's just how it looks when and that's what you use.
Speaker 1: But it worked. Also, two white guys to guys produced it. Yes,
Speaker 1: that impressed me. We'll talk all about that. But the
Speaker 1: director of this movie is a white man named Sean Baker,
Speaker 1: and then he co wrote it with Chris Berg Go Brogock. Well,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that though, because I think that I
Speaker 1: think that the writing credits of this movie are a
Speaker 1: little are are a little bit belonged to other people? Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: impro well yeah, and we'll we'll cover this more when
Speaker 1: we get into this discussion. But the central conflict of
Speaker 1: this movie, the whole plot, is something that the one
Speaker 1: lead actor, in particular Katana Kiki Rodriguez, who plays Cindy,
Speaker 1: actually a few things that happened in the movie a
Speaker 1: few pretty major plot points or like again the whole
Speaker 1: story are like experience. Yeah, yeah, things that either happened
Speaker 1: to her or friends of like happened to friends of
Speaker 1: hers that she just kind of like relay the information
Speaker 1: to these white sis male screenwriters. And I mean there's
Speaker 1: there's definitely, like I said, there's a whole discussion to
Speaker 1: be had. But okay, yeah, the production of this movie
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about other than the iPhone aspect.
Speaker 1: I didn't know much about the production of this movie.
Speaker 1: And there's there there were a lot of twists and
Speaker 1: turns for sure in production. There's a there's a do
Speaker 1: plass brother that gets involved. You're just like whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 1: There's well, Jamie, what's your relationship in history with it?
Speaker 1: I have seen this movie before. I really really enjoyed
Speaker 1: it UM the first time I watched it, just because
Speaker 1: I think it had come to streaming recently and I
Speaker 1: just wanted to see it because it means like, it's
Speaker 1: the iPhone movie and it's great, and I was like, okay, UM,
Speaker 1: and I really really enjoyed it the first time I
Speaker 1: watched it. UM. I wasn't at the time, I wasn't
Speaker 1: watching it critically, but I was excited to revisit it
Speaker 1: for UM for the show. And I guess what, I
Speaker 1: still love it. It's a really fun movie. Same what
Speaker 1: about you, Caitlin. Yeah, I saw it it came out. UM.
Speaker 1: I probably didn't watch it for the first time until
Speaker 1: a couple of years later. I think I saw in
Speaker 1: SEV the first time, and I had heard similar things
Speaker 1: like they shut the whole thing on an iPhone, isn't
Speaker 1: that marvelous? But I'm almost kind of like, who cares
Speaker 1: about that? Like it's such a monumental film for so
Speaker 1: many other reasons, Um, And it's so fun. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: It's I mean a romp, you know me. I love
Speaker 1: a good romp. UM. But it's Yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 1: I watched it. I've seen it a few times now.
Speaker 1: Over the years, and um, big fan. But I think
Speaker 1: it's kind of selfishly. It's fun because it takes place
Speaker 1: near where we all live. Oh I know where? Oh cool?
Speaker 1: I think I know every driven past, don't a time before.
Speaker 1: But also there there are parts where you're like, you
Speaker 1: didn't walk there, you didn't walk from there, There's no way.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm cutting two hours later. Cool, So
Speaker 1: should we jump in? Yeah, let's do the recap. So
Speaker 1: it's Christmas Eve, It's a Christmas in Los Angeles. It's
Speaker 1: a Christmas movie, right, it is? Oh, this is good.
Speaker 1: That should be added to the like official holiday movie masterless. Sure.
Speaker 1: And one of many reasons I like this movie is
Speaker 1: that it's a movie that takes place around Christmas time,
Speaker 1: that treats Christmas like it's just any other day. It
Speaker 1: kind of sometimes like lighting. I feel like that the
Speaker 1: main plot of it being Christmas is like some fun
Speaker 1: holiday lighting and something you're like, but for the most part,
Speaker 1: everyone's just like, I don't really give a funk that
Speaker 1: it's Christmas. And I'm like, that's how I feel. As
Speaker 1: the resident um Scrooge mcgrinch of the group, Um, did
Speaker 1: you just yes? That is what I said, and I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry, everybody innovating, innovating all over life. Thank You's
Speaker 1: actually the name of my new screenplay, Um Scrooge mcgrinch,
Speaker 1: The the Anti Christmas Story, The Anti christ Mass Story. Yes,
Speaker 1: it starts. Who does it start? Who does it start? Oh? Um?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Honestly, if Alfred Molina is not in
Speaker 1: this movie, I'll pitch a fit. So you belong to
Speaker 1: somewhere in this universe. I'm assuming it's an expanded universe.
Speaker 1: There's a lot, you know, grant I need. I need
Speaker 1: at least four movies the un fact. You'll get them.
Speaker 1: I'm working on it. Um okay. Anyway, So it's It's
Speaker 1: Christmas Eve in Los Angeles? Ever heard of it? And
Speaker 1: we meet West Hollywood, specifically in West Hollywood. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: meet Cindy played by Katana Kikei Rodriguez. And you got
Speaker 1: to spell it. Yes, it's not the like c I
Speaker 1: N d y spelling that you might be conte. It's
Speaker 1: s I N d E last name, last name Rella.
Speaker 1: So Cindy Rella, yes, or is our protagonist's name? You
Speaker 1: don't call a protagonist. I can do that, though I'm
Speaker 1: not sure I will. Um and then, um, she is
Speaker 1: with Alexandra played by Maya Taylor, and they are best
Speaker 1: friends and they are both trans sex workers. In their conversation,
Speaker 1: Alexander lets it slip that Cindy's boyfriend and pimp Chester
Speaker 1: has been cheating on her with a white CIS woman
Speaker 1: whose name they're not totally sure of, but they think
Speaker 1: it begins with the D And this was happening while
Speaker 1: Cindy was gone for the past few weeks, and we
Speaker 1: found out later that she was in jail for possession
Speaker 1: of drugs that she was holding for Chester. She was
Speaker 1: in jail for twenty eight days, right, Okay, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is actually the sequel to twenty eight days later. By
Speaker 1: the way, r I p donut time. I know it
Speaker 1: was a simpler time. It was a donut your time.
Speaker 1: There was a donut your time. Wow, you're not wrong.
Speaker 1: Um okay. So Cindy sets off to find this lady
Speaker 1: the Fish the Fish, and Alexandra reluctantly agrees to help her,
Speaker 1: and she's also handing out flyers for a show that
Speaker 1: Alexandra has later that night at Hamburger Mary's at seven pm. Yes,
Speaker 1: this is where the walking comes in. You're just like
Speaker 1: how do we get here so quickly? Right? Meanwhile, we
Speaker 1: meet Razmic Rasmic, a cab driver, and we see him
Speaker 1: driving some people around hill. Is this before? Is this before?
Speaker 1: Is this bu? Is this before? Uber? Or Uber was
Speaker 1: definitely a thing at this point, it was just kind
Speaker 1: of new. Maybe wasn't a gigantic threat to the cabin
Speaker 1: district yet. I don't know, because he seemed busy, right,
Speaker 1: he was always driving, and it was like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess it would have been cab times. I also, I
Speaker 1: mean this movie was like shot Wait, let me get
Speaker 1: the exact dates of when this was shot, because it
Speaker 1: might have been shot like at an even more cab time.
Speaker 1: Let me see. Okay, it was filmed at the end
Speaker 1: of So I feel like that is pretty firmly like
Speaker 1: before uber really really caught on, right, it was still
Speaker 1: it was already definitely a thing. But yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know if like the widespread adoption of like Uber and
Speaker 1: lift was it wasn't super popular. But um, Kyle, you
Speaker 1: said be you, and that provides an opportunity for me
Speaker 1: to bring up something that I hated to college. Um no,
Speaker 1: that's b why you I went to bust you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I did get a master's degree in screenwriting. There, Um,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. You're welcome. I did that on purpose.
Speaker 1: I hate to bring it up, but you left me
Speaker 1: no choice. Um. Okay, So we meet this cab driver
Speaker 1: and then we cut back to Cindy. She asks Nash
Speaker 1: played by Ian Edwards, who um as a comic an
Speaker 1: actor of course, but super funny. Yeah. She asks Nash
Speaker 1: if he has seen Chester and he tells her to
Speaker 1: go to a food line where she might be able
Speaker 1: to get some more information from people. That leads her
Speaker 1: to Bob, who tells her to go to a particular motel. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Alexandra starts working. A guy picks her up. They get
Speaker 1: into a fight because he won't pay her. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: completely short changes her. Um from the jump, and then
Speaker 1: the situation escalates because cops get involved. And because this
Speaker 1: is fiction, the cops are hell of cool. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: cops don't. They still suck, but they're like, it's Christmas
Speaker 1: right right, Like I'm going to let this one slide.
Speaker 1: And you're just like, okay, really would you do that?
Speaker 1: I don't think So it's still fucked up. So then
Speaker 1: we see we're back to Rasmick driving around cruising. He's
Speaker 1: looking for a sex worker to pick up, and we
Speaker 1: learned that he is pretty much only interested in trans women. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then he and Alexander cross paths because he is
Speaker 1: a regular client of hers. Then Cindy finally finds the
Speaker 1: woman she's looking for. Her name is Nina, pulls her
Speaker 1: out of this party room at this motel and starts
Speaker 1: dragging her part. Excellent, that's such a nice that's a
Speaker 1: nice way of putting it. I know that motel by
Speaker 1: the way, Wait, where is it Hollywood? And okay, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I used to drive past there all the time going
Speaker 1: to Nerd Melt. I used to work at it. The
Speaker 1: only real job I ever had was a nonprofit that
Speaker 1: provided services to a lot of sex workers. And everyone
Speaker 1: knew that that motel is like legit, that's all that
Speaker 1: motel does is they rent by the hour two sex workers.
Speaker 1: And it was it was nice to see that, you know,
Speaker 1: they're still doing business, they're still doing really well. Got
Speaker 1: some some full frontal male nudity. We see at least
Speaker 1: one dick. Yeah, it's a it's a scared dick. It's
Speaker 1: a dick against the wall. And you're like, yeah, she
Speaker 1: finds Dinah. She finds Dinah and pulls her out, like
Speaker 1: drags her out by her hair and starts dragging her
Speaker 1: across town towards donut time, where she finds out that
Speaker 1: Chester is But then she realizes it's a little past
Speaker 1: seven pm and that she's missing Alexandra's show. So Cindy
Speaker 1: drags Dina to Hamburger Mary's to get on a buss.
Speaker 1: You never see That's like one small representation thing that
Speaker 1: I always really appreciate it, but you never see like
Speaker 1: protagonists use public transit like it's and when you actually
Speaker 1: see it, you're like people people of course like there,
Speaker 1: but yeah, they they hang out on a real life
Speaker 1: l a city bus. What a dream and everyone has
Speaker 1: seen that. You know, if you've ever like taken a
Speaker 1: bus for more than a couple of days at a time,
Speaker 1: you've you've seen a situation like that, You're like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna pretend this isn't happening right now, this is none
Speaker 1: of my business. Someone is probably in danger, but this
Speaker 1: is a low key hostage situation. There, it's a hostage drump.
Speaker 1: Everyone minded their own business. It was nice, we all
Speaker 1: got to where we were going. Um so Meanwhile, we
Speaker 1: see razmake at home and realize that he is married.
Speaker 1: He and his wife has a small child. His mother
Speaker 1: in law lives with them, so we realized basically he's
Speaker 1: kind of living this double life. There are Armenian yes, there,
Speaker 1: Armenian there. I mean, it is like there are so
Speaker 1: many elements of this movie that make it like an
Speaker 1: awesome l A movie because it's so many like underrepresented
Speaker 1: communities in l A specifically are in the end, it's
Speaker 1: it's like seeing an Armenian immigrant family and seeing them
Speaker 1: like actually characterized and not just like in passing is
Speaker 1: for the amount of movies that take place in l A.
Speaker 1: It's like a super rarity is cool totally um. So,
Speaker 1: he also heads toward Alexandra's show at Hamburger Mary's. Then
Speaker 1: we see her singing at the show, and then we
Speaker 1: also see Cindy and Dinah's interactions being a little less
Speaker 1: antagonistic than they were a little bit. I wanted to
Speaker 1: see Dina continue to be beaten because the only two
Speaker 1: white people in this movie are the kind of white
Speaker 1: people who use the N word because they think it's cool,
Speaker 1: and so anytime something bad was about to happen to them.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, bring it more and Chester and Chester. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it is wild because there is such a huge
Speaker 1: build in the movie to you meeting Chester, and then
Speaker 1: when you meet Chester, you're like what you expect? You're
Speaker 1: just like, this is who we were. So this guy,
Speaker 1: all right, maybe he has a great personality. And then
Speaker 1: he doesn't know, doesn't this is who everyone was fighting for,
Speaker 1: right Literally Chester has no idea how good he has it? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: their their interactions become a little less antagonistic. They smoke.
Speaker 1: Was that is that crap? Me? Okay? Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know drugs? Embarrassing? How do you live in l A
Speaker 1: and you don't know meth? I don't know. I'm a square.
Speaker 1: It's a cultural staple. It's basically the main thing l
Speaker 1: A Is known for. So that happens, and then Cindy
Speaker 1: also fixes Dina's smudgy makeup, so it's like maybe they're
Speaker 1: starting to be sort of friendly toward each other. The
Speaker 1: makeup that she fucked up because she beat her until
Speaker 1: she cried it off. Correct. It's very sweet, it is.
Speaker 1: It is like that. It ends up being a very
Speaker 1: tender moment where I love the pacing of this movie too,
Speaker 1: where it's just like things are like happening, happening, happening.
Speaker 1: It's a rob We're going from place to place very quickly,
Speaker 1: and then every once in a while you get like
Speaker 1: to really hang somewhere. And it's not always with the
Speaker 1: characters that you expect, like I wasn't expecting a longer
Speaker 1: scene with Cindy and like five minutes in the bathroom, right,
Speaker 1: but but it just feels right, and it gives you
Speaker 1: a chance to catch your breath and see these characters together.
Speaker 1: You're just like, damn, it's a good movie. M So
Speaker 1: then they head back towards don't time to link up
Speaker 1: with Chester. We can talk about how terrible the show was.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's not fair of me to gloss over that. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: no one shows up really to Alexander's show, which as comedians, um,
Speaker 1: we understand. We get it, especially around like the holidays
Speaker 1: in l A. And if you're like still doing shows,
Speaker 1: you're just like there's four lonely people and they're so
Speaker 1: into it, and then other than that there's no one
Speaker 1: and you're just like, uh, you know what I wish
Speaker 1: they had done? I wish that in the middle of
Speaker 1: her song they had turned on a blender. You're someone
Speaker 1: started shaking a drink really hard every time every time
Speaker 1: someone orders a fucking daker. Who's ordering a dabt? Who
Speaker 1: and whoever it is then is like heckling from the back.
Speaker 1: You're just like god, right, And then we find out
Speaker 1: that she had to basically like pay to get stage time.
Speaker 1: We've all I definitely have paid five dollars to participate
Speaker 1: in an open mic before. But it's an audition, right,
Speaker 1: it's valuable. You're being charged in experience there. I thought
Speaker 1: Alexandra's performance was lovely. I was, it was really sweet
Speaker 1: and really nice, and I was just I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just like a holiday time show field where you're
Speaker 1: just like, be so nice if there were people here. Okay.
Speaker 1: So then so they're heading back towards donut time. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Resume is trying to find Cindy and Alexandra, but he
Speaker 1: missed them at Hamburger Mary's, so he asks their friends
Speaker 1: where they might be, and then he also heads towards
Speaker 1: don't at time. But he lied to his family. He
Speaker 1: lied to his family and his son. His mother in
Speaker 1: law is suspicious, so she gets in another cab and
Speaker 1: hunts him down. So then Cindy, Alexandra, and Dinah arrive
Speaker 1: at doughnut time and Cindy confronts Chester, who we meet
Speaker 1: on screen for the first time, about cheating on her
Speaker 1: with Dinah. Chester is all like, no, Cindy, I love you,
Speaker 1: you or my fiance And then everyone's like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: what you're engaged? Dinah is heckling the whole time, y yep,
Speaker 1: and then Chester eventually admits to having sex with Dinah
Speaker 1: and just then um Rasmiek shows up because he wants
Speaker 1: to spend time with Cindy, but right then his mother
Speaker 1: in law also shows up and she realizes what Resmuk
Speaker 1: has been getting into this whole time. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of yelling, and then she calls her daughter, Resuk's
Speaker 1: wife and she shows up, and then there's more yelling.
Speaker 1: Woman who owns the donut shop, like why does this
Speaker 1: keep happening? She keeps she keeps threatening to call the
Speaker 1: cops um, which again would have in real life resulted
Speaker 1: in everyone dying. But yes, thankfully the cops never show up.
Speaker 1: That's real. I was like, classic cops. Yeah, it's an emergency, Okay,
Speaker 1: we'll be there in six hours. But anyway, so Rasmus
Speaker 1: wife is just like, well, you know, sometimes a wife
Speaker 1: has to look the other way because he is the
Speaker 1: sole breadwinner. Yeah, exactly. She's like, why did you call
Speaker 1: me down here? I know, trying to pretend this isn't happy.
Speaker 1: Now you have to embarrass everybody, right, But anyway, so
Speaker 1: it seems like everything's going to be okay after all
Speaker 1: this chaos has just erupted. But then Chester is like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, Alexandra is the one who told you
Speaker 1: that I was cheating Cindy. Well did she mention that
Speaker 1: she and I had sex? And then Cindy is devastated
Speaker 1: that her best friend would betray her like that, so
Speaker 1: she storms off. Alexandra is trying to reconcile, but she's
Speaker 1: not having any of it. And then she's tried to
Speaker 1: go to work. Uh, some awful bastards throw a cup
Speaker 1: of urine on Cindy, and then Alexander runs over and
Speaker 1: helps her get cleaned up. They go to a laundromat
Speaker 1: and she knows she washes her off, and then she
Speaker 1: gives Cindy her hair and then they make up and
Speaker 1: that's the end of their night, and the end of
Speaker 1: the movie. Why is Chester the what? Why can can
Speaker 1: no one do better than Chester? I don't understand, Yes,
Speaker 1: zero redeemable quality because you see these women like knowing
Speaker 1: their worth a lot, Like throughout the whole movie they're like, no,
Speaker 1: like you have to give me more money, Like I'm
Speaker 1: not doing that. Like there's a lot of them knowing
Speaker 1: their word. Not to defend Chester, but and I'm not
Speaker 1: defending Chester, but there's a lot of strong women who
Speaker 1: know they're worth who are inevitably like kind of inexplicably
Speaker 1: with a Chester drawn to forty year old who still
Speaker 1: have skateboards, right, And you're just like, okay, so this
Speaker 1: is just this is there's something that you know, like
Speaker 1: Cindy hasn't unpacked where she's you know, everyone has a
Speaker 1: I have a certain kind of shitty guy that I'm
Speaker 1: to have a chance. It's not the Chester type, but
Speaker 1: I have my Chesters. You know, I've had my share
Speaker 1: of Chesters. Sure Gus hasn't had a Chester too. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll come right
Speaker 1: back to discuss the film. And we're back. So where begin.
Speaker 1: There's there's so much, so many wonderful things to talk about.
Speaker 1: Does it make sense to get into some of the
Speaker 1: context in terms of like the production and development of
Speaker 1: this movie. Sure thing first, yeah, so, so I think
Speaker 1: that the surprising thing for me because again, when I
Speaker 1: was watching this movie the first time, I'm I didn't
Speaker 1: do research on the director. I was just watching it
Speaker 1: to enjoy it. But the director and one of the
Speaker 1: two credited writers on this movie is a director, Sean Baker,
Speaker 1: who is like a white guy who went to n
Speaker 1: y U. Which I don't know what I was expecting,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't expecting a white guy who went to
Speaker 1: n y U. And so I think that that is like,
Speaker 1: that's worth discussing here because I think that this movie
Speaker 1: is um is and is considered a step forward in
Speaker 1: trans representation in like bigger, like critically acclaimed films, let's say,
Speaker 1: and then behind it you have this movie wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been made if Mark Duplas hadn't gotten involved and if
Speaker 1: this guy, Sean Baker hadn't directed it. So he made
Speaker 1: movies before. I think this was his first like big,
Speaker 1: really popular movie, and then he went on to he
Speaker 1: also made The Florida Project, but same same writing team,
Speaker 1: same director, and same font on the poster even say
Speaker 1: I think so, I mean, it's it's nothing. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know of anything negative about Sean Baker, but
Speaker 1: I do think that that is something that has come
Speaker 1: up on our show before. Where um, sometimes in movies
Speaker 1: that are like pushing forward in some ways, you still
Speaker 1: have a lot of the old guard, let's say, behind
Speaker 1: the camera, which kind of which sucks. Like you, I mean, ideally,
Speaker 1: there should be more black directors being able to direct
Speaker 1: black stories and trans directors being able to direct trans
Speaker 1: stories and not need, you know, have the perceived need
Speaker 1: for a white guy who went to n Y you
Speaker 1: really involved at all. In this case, a beautiful movie
Speaker 1: was was turned out by it. But that kind of
Speaker 1: it into what we were talking about a bit at
Speaker 1: the top of the show, which is the writing process.
Speaker 1: And once you find out that like a do Plas
Speaker 1: brother is involved, the writing style kind of all comes together.
Speaker 1: You're like, okay, so yeah, You're like, okay, so this
Speaker 1: movie isn't necessary like it's written and it's not written
Speaker 1: because that's a very like do Plas brothers. They're the
Speaker 1: they're the mumble core kings whatever, and it seems like
Speaker 1: this movie had a very similar approach to writing. So
Speaker 1: my understanding, based on just the production history and on
Speaker 1: interviews I read at the time that the movie was
Speaker 1: coming out, was that Sean Baker did not wasn't ingratiated
Speaker 1: in the communities he's portraying in these movies. He is.
Speaker 1: He was just kind of a guy who made movies
Speaker 1: and was looking for stories to tell and lived in
Speaker 1: West Hollywood and so was aware of the sex worker community.
Speaker 1: He was aware of the trans community, but he you know,
Speaker 1: obviously he didn't have any experience there himself. And so
Speaker 1: he started to um talk with the two women who
Speaker 1: eventually started this movie, uh, Katana Kiki Rodriguez and Maya Taylor,
Speaker 1: and through Caitlin you were saying this earlier, but through
Speaker 1: talking with them, getting to know them, uh, spending time
Speaker 1: with them, sort of discovered the story that seemed right
Speaker 1: to tell through talking with them, and like you were saying,
Speaker 1: a lot of the major plot points in this movie
Speaker 1: are based on the experiences that either they or their
Speaker 1: friends had had. Because they are both former sex workers,
Speaker 1: they are both trans women, they like very much lived
Speaker 1: this experience their characters are depicting in the movie, which
Speaker 1: On one hand, it's amazing that you have trans characters
Speaker 1: played by trans actors, which is unfortunately historically in Hollywood
Speaker 1: pretty rare. Red Maine, I feel like he still hasn't
Speaker 1: had to answer for that. Oh for the Danish girl.
Speaker 1: Um and the fact that, yeah, I mean they are
Speaker 1: black trans women. They have this experience of being former
Speaker 1: sex workers. It's there kind of real life story that's
Speaker 1: being told through this movie. That again was as far
Speaker 1: as the credited writers go, is these two sis white men. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a really long way of getting to the fact
Speaker 1: that Keiki and Maya should based on everything I've read
Speaker 1: and seen about this movie, they should be credited as
Speaker 1: writers of this movie just as much, if not more so,
Speaker 1: than Sean Baker and Chris berg BERGA sure how to
Speaker 1: say it? Question mark? Who's this? Chris guy? Who is?
Speaker 1: There's no Wikipedia? But this is also in addition to,
Speaker 1: like again, major plot points being lifted from their lived experiences. UM.
Speaker 1: I also read that a lot of the dialogue that
Speaker 1: was written into the script got basically altered, improvised, adapted
Speaker 1: to be more authentic, to be more authentic, right, So
Speaker 1: it was the actors sort of rewriting the dialogue, I
Speaker 1: could tell that Chester's lines were written by a straitcist,
Speaker 1: like that that was written on a fucking MacBook Pro.
Speaker 1: Those lines right there. Final, Yeah, it's true, And I
Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, when you when you know that going
Speaker 1: into watching the movie, the viewing experience is it's still
Speaker 1: a wonderful movie, but it's a little different because you
Speaker 1: can hear those written scenes in there, like under this
Speaker 1: like very authentic, like natural feeling dialogue from Kiki and Maya.
Speaker 1: And I was also saying reading and hearing in the
Speaker 1: interviews that they gave around this, the Kiki and Maya
Speaker 1: were also really instrumental in like constantly reminding Sean Baker
Speaker 1: and pushing to make the movie funny and to make
Speaker 1: it a romp. And they're so funny. They're so naturally funny. Yeah. Sure,
Speaker 1: Like their line readings were ridiculous. It's hilarious, so perfect,
Speaker 1: and it seems like and I think that a tendency
Speaker 1: a lot for white filmmakers telling non white stories is
Speaker 1: to just it's depressing and it's like framed as tragedy,
Speaker 1: and even though there are sad things that happen inside
Speaker 1: of this movie, it doesn't feel like a weighed down,
Speaker 1: tragic story, and that sounds based on all the interviews,
Speaker 1: it sounds like that is directly due to Kiki and
Speaker 1: Maya pushing for that. So there, I cannot find a
Speaker 1: reason other than Hollywood being an asshole that they're not
Speaker 1: credited as writers right on this movie. So to speak
Speaker 1: to that a little more. Um. This is a quote
Speaker 1: from an article in The Guardian where it says quote
Speaker 1: the filmmaker admitted that his approach would have been more
Speaker 1: downbeat and dramatic had Rodriguez not put her foot down. Um,
Speaker 1: looking back, he realized how right she was. She was
Speaker 1: asking for something that would present these characters to mainstream
Speaker 1: audiences in a pop culture way so that they could
Speaker 1: identify with them. End quote. So then pay her for that.
Speaker 1: Like it's just it's so annoying when people pull this
Speaker 1: ship and continue to pull this ship because m yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it seems like they wrote more of the
Speaker 1: story than he did. I know, He's like, eventually I
Speaker 1: realized that, you know, she was kind of right about
Speaker 1: like how the story that she basically created should be told,
Speaker 1: you know, like she had she had good instincts, I guess.
Speaker 1: And He's like yeah, I'll put my name on that. Sure.
Speaker 1: It's just like Jesus Christ there, and it's so many
Speaker 1: things at once because I just like it's frustrating because
Speaker 1: it's like, I'm not trying to suggest that Sean Baker
Speaker 1: is a bad person, and I think that he made
Speaker 1: a lovely movie, but it just doesn't seem like Kiki
Speaker 1: and Maya are adequately credited for the amount of influence
Speaker 1: and work that they did and had over this movie
Speaker 1: that the actors made it totally. And yeah, especially because
Speaker 1: like a writing credit would have meant that they got
Speaker 1: more money, they would have been paid more and and
Speaker 1: things like that, they could have been nominated for writing
Speaker 1: awards like there. And another thing that this movie I
Speaker 1: think was like considered as like a milestone that Tangerine
Speaker 1: pushed forward was some of the first Um, the oscars suck,
Speaker 1: so of course they slept on it, but um, some
Speaker 1: of the first like acting nominations for trans women were
Speaker 1: because of this movie. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean there
Speaker 1: there is a lot of if not first, um, some
Speaker 1: of the best in recent memory progress for for representation.
Speaker 1: But it's still just the fact that at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, it is credited basically exclusively to white
Speaker 1: guys behind the camera is disappointing and frustrating, and it's
Speaker 1: like I wish I could say I were surprised. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how much anyone got paid on this though,
Speaker 1: because it was the Boy. They shot it on three
Speaker 1: five s right, and they edited it and I think,
Speaker 1: just like I movie, probably no, it was it was
Speaker 1: super I mean, it seems like they used equipment that
Speaker 1: they already had to make it. But even that aside,
Speaker 1: it's like they still have a whole crew they have.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of performers in this movie, and you
Speaker 1: have to imagine they're not making a ton of money
Speaker 1: to do it. And it's like Mark Duplas, you have money,
Speaker 1: come on, Mark, sir. In any case. Yeah, Well, something
Speaker 1: that has been coming up for us a lot is
Speaker 1: we want to encourage people from all backgrounds to be
Speaker 1: inclusive in the writing. And we've been saying again this
Speaker 1: more often more recently. But you know, we we're not
Speaker 1: saying that a white ciss man couldn't make a great
Speaker 1: movie about black trans sex workers. Because we saw that
Speaker 1: they did that did happen? And um, I have a
Speaker 1: quote here from another article entitled What Tangerine taught Hollywood
Speaker 1: about how to tell trans stories. From the publication them
Speaker 1: quote to craft a story about a world with which
Speaker 1: they had little experienced, director Sean Baker and his writing
Speaker 1: partner Chris Berg um new when to ask for help
Speaker 1: right away. The humility demonstrated by Baker and Berg in
Speaker 1: copying to a lack of knowledge about their intended subject
Speaker 1: upfront is essential for any syst filmmaker who wants to
Speaker 1: incorporate trans themes or characters into their work. All and
Speaker 1: the quote there, and we'll post this article because I
Speaker 1: think the whole thing is worth reading. But um, that's
Speaker 1: what we always say, like, do your homework. You can
Speaker 1: represent communities responsibly even if you do not belong to
Speaker 1: that community. It is going to be much harder for you,
Speaker 1: and it will take a lot more homework. Um. But
Speaker 1: I guess and I don't want to, but it must
Speaker 1: sound like I'm giving these guys too much credit. But
Speaker 1: the bottom line is, yeah, definitely that like these two actors,
Speaker 1: the lead actors in this movie should have been given
Speaker 1: far more credit in what they contributed creatively to the movie,
Speaker 1: way more than they were. Yeah. I mean it's like
Speaker 1: if you're doing your homework, that is critical and important,
Speaker 1: but you also need to like give credit where credited
Speaker 1: is due. And that's not just in interviews. It is
Speaker 1: also something that you do financially, and it's something you
Speaker 1: do by like using your own influence to continue to
Speaker 1: like provide a platform and provide Like it's just I
Speaker 1: Sean Baker is more on the right track than I
Speaker 1: think a lot of sins white guys are. But it's
Speaker 1: still the fact that I'm just like they should have
Speaker 1: been paid more, they should have been credited more, and
Speaker 1: because like this movie was nominated for a lot of
Speaker 1: behind the scenes stuff too, and and and they should
Speaker 1: have you know, gotten a cut of that as well.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, what have they done after this? Uh?
Speaker 1: Not too much? And for intunately that this is um
Speaker 1: Kiki Rodriguez is only film credit, and Maya has been
Speaker 1: in a few other things but mostly short films. And
Speaker 1: then she's in a movie called Stage Mother that came
Speaker 1: out this year that has Jackie Weaver and Lucy Lou
Speaker 1: and Adrian Grenier. I don't so so she's she's she's working,
Speaker 1: but it but Kiki isn't as much And I feel like,
Speaker 1: that's something too. It's it's the fact that Sean Baker,
Speaker 1: you know, gets to kind of use Tangerine as a
Speaker 1: springboard and go on to make The Florida Project, a
Speaker 1: movie that I mean, I haven't seen it. I know
Speaker 1: it's well regarded, but a movie with a larger budget
Speaker 1: and a movie like he was able to leverage Tangerine
Speaker 1: into more opportunities for himself. But what about the women
Speaker 1: whose story he was literally telling with Tangerine, And did
Speaker 1: they get left behind in in an unfair way? And
Speaker 1: and what meanwhile, this white guy gets to use their experience,
Speaker 1: however well told, as a springboard for his own career.
Speaker 1: Yuh um. This is a good time to cut to
Speaker 1: our next segment with another one of our special guests.
Speaker 1: She is a stand up in improv comic, a dungeon master,
Speaker 1: and sometimes freestyle rapper. It's Violet Gray. Hello, Hello, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for having me, Thank you for being here.
Speaker 1: So more or less, we just wanted to hear your thoughts,
Speaker 1: specifically on the representation of black trans women in the
Speaker 1: movie Tangerine. Sure, so, I was just telling my partner
Speaker 1: that my position on this has evolved quite a bit
Speaker 1: because if you had asked me fifteen years ago what
Speaker 1: I thought of the representation of black trans women in
Speaker 1: the movie Tangerine, I would have talked about this uncomfortable
Speaker 1: consistency in portraying black women and black trans women as
Speaker 1: like drug addicted prostitutes. But since then, in the last
Speaker 1: fifteen years or so, I've really evolved on what it
Speaker 1: means to be a sex worker and what it means
Speaker 1: to have addiction, and um, I would say, there's nothing wrong,
Speaker 1: there's nothing shameful about being in the sex industry. And
Speaker 1: one thing I did like is that I mean, there
Speaker 1: was a scene where they're using drugs, they're smoking crack,
Speaker 1: and it didn't happen until much later in the movie,
Speaker 1: and I thought that was good because it established them
Speaker 1: as humans. First, they're not drug addicts, they're humans who
Speaker 1: do drugs um uh and and it took them out
Speaker 1: of this archetype. I liked both the characters. I understood
Speaker 1: that that in ironment is is some people's realities. I
Speaker 1: was thankful that they were humanized the way they did.
Speaker 1: I saw a lot in the movie that reminded me
Speaker 1: of myself. So there's a scene where she where Cindy
Speaker 1: is in the subway train and she is looking out
Speaker 1: of the window. I don't think a lot of people
Speaker 1: realize that if you're a trans person, that can be
Speaker 1: a sort of defense mechanism, because you're pretty much locked
Speaker 1: in a box with complete strangers for a while, and
Speaker 1: when you're looking out the window, they can't see your
Speaker 1: face and they can't see your features. Yes, so I
Speaker 1: guess that there's something to be said about how black
Speaker 1: trans women are consistently portrayed. I do think there is
Speaker 1: a conversation there, but I also think that hey, sex
Speaker 1: workers and people who have substance of these issues are
Speaker 1: humans too, absolutely, and I think ultimately this movie was
Speaker 1: more about friendship and adversity than any of that. Definitely,
Speaker 1: to speak to the um SO, I was just talking
Speaker 1: about how just last night, at the time of this recording,
Speaker 1: this documentary just came out on Netflix. But the doc
Speaker 1: Disclosure that um Laverne Cox, among many other people, executive produced.
Speaker 1: They touch on this specific thing in the documentary about
Speaker 1: how the representation of black trans women, especially in media,
Speaker 1: that they are depicted as sex workers pretty disproportionately, and
Speaker 1: there is an acknowledgement that there are statistically many black
Speaker 1: trans women sex workers. But as the documentary Disclosure points out,
Speaker 1: there's usually a failure in movies and television to examine
Speaker 1: why that might be, which is that the unemployment rate
Speaker 1: for black trans women is very high because of discrimination,
Speaker 1: and many black trans women have no choice but to
Speaker 1: turn to sex work because no one will give them
Speaker 1: a job. Absolutely, yeah, there's always a failure to acknowledge
Speaker 1: any of the systemic reasons why black trans women might
Speaker 1: be sex workers. And it's just like, well, that's just
Speaker 1: what black trans women be, and right right, as if
Speaker 1: when everyone was going to elementary school and one person
Speaker 1: wanted to be a police officer and the other person
Speaker 1: wanted to be yea, yeah, no, no, no, little kid
Speaker 1: is in it. And when people want to know about intersectionality,
Speaker 1: black trans women are might go to example because it
Speaker 1: is the intersection of being a person of color and
Speaker 1: being transgender as an example. But yes, I do think
Speaker 1: that a lot of people, especially people who push this
Speaker 1: uh personal responsibility narrative as if it's a false dichotomy.
Speaker 1: It's an either or you're either taking personal responsibility for
Speaker 1: your situation or you're blaming external factors, as if external
Speaker 1: factors can't possibly be responsible, at least in part for
Speaker 1: for your current situation, whatever that situation. Maybe, But yes,
Speaker 1: I think what most minority groups need above anything else
Speaker 1: in film representation is to be humanized, and I think
Speaker 1: that Tangerine did do a good job of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm also curious of UM going off of Tangerine a
Speaker 1: little bit, what would you like to see more of
Speaker 1: in terms of representation. What is UM something that you
Speaker 1: would like to see more of that that isn't quite
Speaker 1: I don't know that isn't quite in the mainstream yet
Speaker 1: as far as black trans women, or just in general,
Speaker 1: as far as like Okay, so, one of my favorite
Speaker 1: sci fi books, and one of the stories that I
Speaker 1: point to as one of the best representation of a
Speaker 1: trans person is a book called The Fifth Season by N. K.
Speaker 1: J Emison, And there's a trans character in there who
Speaker 1: you don't find out is trans until two thirds of
Speaker 1: the way through the book. But until then, mostly what
Speaker 1: you know about her is that she's this sort of
Speaker 1: terminally curious mad scientist. She sees a new thing and
Speaker 1: she's like, how does that work? I wonder what the
Speaker 1: technical applications of this are. Maybe if we put this
Speaker 1: thing in it, we could do this thing. And she
Speaker 1: comes from a well to do family, but she is
Speaker 1: pretty much exiled, not just because she's trans, but because
Speaker 1: she was supposed to be the man of the house
Speaker 1: who was supposed to marry you. Well, and she's like, well,
Speaker 1: I can't do that because I'm a woman. I can't
Speaker 1: be what you need me to be. And so I
Speaker 1: really liked a story where a trans person her transness
Speaker 1: is not her defining trait, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: it doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist. So when you're saying, like,
Speaker 1: what would I like to see more of, I would
Speaker 1: like to see more things like that acknowledging someone's transness
Speaker 1: without it being the defining trait for sure. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a balance that it seems like Hollywood, at least, even
Speaker 1: though slow and slight progress is being made in terms
Speaker 1: of trans representation in Hollywood, it seems like still so
Speaker 1: many of the stories or storylines and shows or whatever
Speaker 1: are still very much contingent on well, this is a
Speaker 1: trans person and that's the thing we know about them. Yes,
Speaker 1: that there was a controversy about a video game. I
Speaker 1: believe it was one of the Boulder's Gate or Ice
Speaker 1: wind Dale Games, and um, there was a trans character
Speaker 1: and it got criticized for poor representation because the trans
Speaker 1: person disclosed their transness, their trans status. They mentioned it
Speaker 1: in like the opening sentence of meeting the character, the
Speaker 1: main character, So it would be the equivalent of going
Speaker 1: up to someone it's like, Hi, Caitlin, nice to meet you.
Speaker 1: I'm trans, so anyway, um and so yes, yes, and
Speaker 1: so they were like, you know, yes, there is something
Speaker 1: to be said for It's it's evolving, is the point
Speaker 1: that I'm getting at. And so you have trans characters
Speaker 1: and games now that aren't so in your face, but
Speaker 1: but it's it's like, um, do you remember Atari, Remember
Speaker 1: how it was originally blocks and now the PlayStation five
Speaker 1: it is coming out and it looks damn near like
Speaker 1: real people. Right. I think dialogues we have a sort
Speaker 1: of the same progression. I like this metaphor. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like this is this is good ship? Uh yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that they're still figuring out. And me being having
Speaker 1: Gothic tendencies, I don't usually lean toward optimism, but I
Speaker 1: think that I think that they're they're working it out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's a lot of what that that documentary Disclosure
Speaker 1: is about this sort of slow evolution of trans representation
Speaker 1: in media, and how for decades and decades it was
Speaker 1: all about transphobia, trans panic, just all of the really
Speaker 1: harmful things that misrepresentation of trans people does for individuals
Speaker 1: as well as culture at large, and how it's really
Speaker 1: only been in the past like maybe five years, that
Speaker 1: there's been any kind of headway made in terms of
Speaker 1: progress towards more empathetic and positive representations of trans people
Speaker 1: in popular media. I think that once the Internet came out,
Speaker 1: Once we had the Internet, it was a rap because
Speaker 1: knowledge is the bane of ignorance, and now with the Internet,
Speaker 1: we can just know things at such a rapid pace.
Speaker 1: A lot of people can know a thing very quickly,
Speaker 1: and so I don't really think that there would be
Speaker 1: a discussion of intersectional feminism at this rate, or Black
Speaker 1: Lives Matter or trans issues without the information age that
Speaker 1: we now live in totally and we would, I mean
Speaker 1: we What we were talking about in the episode is
Speaker 1: it's it seems like Tangerine is a good step in
Speaker 1: the right direction, But I hope in a couple of
Speaker 1: years we're at a point where it's like a sci
Speaker 1: fi story with a trans protagonist, that would be fucking incredible.
Speaker 1: And just like you were saying, just you know, centering
Speaker 1: the story on a trans character in a way that
Speaker 1: isn't like and this is what trans representation is. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: we're in a sci fi world with a trans character, right. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: the normalization is still something we need to normalize. If
Speaker 1: that makes any sense. Yes, it really makes you think.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a process, but it's something we'll
Speaker 1: just have to keep working on. Because I remember watching
Speaker 1: a documentary on the representation of black people on the
Speaker 1: screen back when they were black and white movies, and
Speaker 1: there was a time when if a black person was
Speaker 1: on the screen for a couple of seconds, black families
Speaker 1: would call out to everyone in the house and say,
Speaker 1: look a black person on TV. And they would all
Speaker 1: run to the TV to watch the black person on TV.
Speaker 1: And this was before say Living Single or The Cosby
Speaker 1: Show or What's Happening or Family Matters, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: I think most groups, probably when it comes to representation,
Speaker 1: uh go through this process as we talk about on
Speaker 1: the show. Often representation will kind of come in waves
Speaker 1: or there will be stages to it where First of all,
Speaker 1: any marginalized group will be more or less just erased,
Speaker 1: pretend that they don't exist in media. Then there will
Speaker 1: be an acknowledgment of their existence and an inclusion of
Speaker 1: it on screen, but that that representation will be horrifying, racist, transphobic,
Speaker 1: you know all yeah, just like really damaging. And then
Speaker 1: when we when you know, enough people realize that that's
Speaker 1: not good, then there will be more progress to something.
Speaker 1: And then and then that's what injurin even is like
Speaker 1: that very particular sub step that we've noticed where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to center this story on black trans women
Speaker 1: in an authentic way. The director is still some random
Speaker 1: white guy who went to n y U. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's like the story is still not like given to
Speaker 1: the people who need to be telling it. So it's
Speaker 1: like a step like inching inching, inching forward. Yeah, a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't know that the writers for Good
Speaker 1: Times were all white, Oh wow, yeah to begin with.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, yeah, that is definitely a process that
Speaker 1: it was the source of some tension between the actors
Speaker 1: and the writers sometimes, I'd imagine, so yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it is, it is part of the the evolution something
Speaker 1: that I think most of us believe in. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: but yes, but um but yeah, I do think it is.
Speaker 1: It is one of the things that is part of
Speaker 1: a normal process, the no representation, then really bad representation,
Speaker 1: and then small stepping stones, and then someday, hopefully very soon,
Speaker 1: we have just no one could take any issues with
Speaker 1: the representation that we see because it's at a place
Speaker 1: where it's positive and good and yeah, a sci fi
Speaker 1: expanded universe, right and that and that will come with
Speaker 1: trans people being the ones to tell their own stories.
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. I look forward to the day when when
Speaker 1: the country can hate a trans villain because she's a douche,
Speaker 1: right and yeah, and not because she's like a weird
Speaker 1: trophy murderer. Yeah. M hm um. Do you have any
Speaker 1: other thoughts, any other things you'd like to share in
Speaker 1: terms of Tangerine specifically or representation in general. One thing
Speaker 1: that I thought was particularly poignant about Tangerine, and I
Speaker 1: think this is true of many minority groups, but I
Speaker 1: think trans women and trans women of color in particular
Speaker 1: is so. Towards the very end, she found out that
Speaker 1: her best friend cheated with her boyfriend, and she was like,
Speaker 1: too angry to be angry, too angry to be angry,
Speaker 1: and she's trying to walk away, and then she's a
Speaker 1: victim of this hate crime. And then Alexandra takes her
Speaker 1: to the laundromat to get cleaned up and gives her
Speaker 1: her wig, which is wow, which is a major gestre
Speaker 1: And one thing I thought was very poignant was about
Speaker 1: how to some extent marginalized people have this bond because
Speaker 1: they have to because the at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: the rest of the world is against marginalized people. And
Speaker 1: um I thought that it ended on a note that
Speaker 1: expressed the value of sticking together and being there for
Speaker 1: each other. Well, Violet, thank you so much for taking
Speaker 1: the time to chat with us. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for having me. It was so much fun. Give us
Speaker 1: your plugs, your social media handles. Where can people follow you?
Speaker 1: And oh sure on Instagram I'm Chaotic Violet. You get
Speaker 1: to see all my weird Renaissance Fair costumes. And on
Speaker 1: Twitter I'm Violet Silver. And this Monday, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be on the butter Boy comedy Zip show. Yeah with
Speaker 1: a partner punches. Yeah, that is where you can find
Speaker 1: oh Violent Gray on YouTube and yeah, that's it. Incredible, amazing,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, so much for joining us, Thank
Speaker 1: you for having me. Wonderful. Yeah, let's take a quick
Speaker 1: break and then we'll be back for more. Um, we're back,
Speaker 1: We're back. And another thing that I love how this
Speaker 1: movie like chose the line of you so often see
Speaker 1: like characters defined by their own trauma. Like, I think
Speaker 1: that that's a lot of like when sis hat white
Speaker 1: guys are writing outside of their own experience, and when
Speaker 1: like a lot of like when any writer is writing
Speaker 1: outside of their own experience, I feel like it is
Speaker 1: a really lazy writing tactic to lean on defining someone
Speaker 1: by their trauma. And I think this movie, for the
Speaker 1: most part, toes the line really well of portraying that,
Speaker 1: like there are very very real struggles that these characters
Speaker 1: are encountering. We find out that Cindy was just put
Speaker 1: in jail it seems like for not a good reason. Um,
Speaker 1: And and the kind of looming presence of the cops
Speaker 1: that never fully explodes, but it's always there, like you
Speaker 1: you see the unfair ship that they have to deal with,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't dominate the story in a way that
Speaker 1: defines them. What defines the story is how you know,
Speaker 1: it is primarily like Alexandra and Cindy's friendship, which is
Speaker 1: so like fun to see and that that's a whole
Speaker 1: journey as well. And yeah, it's also I mean, the
Speaker 1: characters themselves, many of them are not I guess, for
Speaker 1: lack of a better term, woke. Like there's there's slurs
Speaker 1: that I know, there's you know, there's reductive and offensive
Speaker 1: name calling that gets thrown around. There's I mean, a
Speaker 1: large component of the story is Cindy being pretty violent
Speaker 1: toward another woman and not holding Chester accountable enough perhaps
Speaker 1: for cheating and really and targeting the other woman, you know,
Speaker 1: which is a thing that always you know, dings are
Speaker 1: little bill. But at the same time, like I I
Speaker 1: give all of that a past just because again that
Speaker 1: that these characters feel. So I'm like, yes, that would
Speaker 1: probably happen. And of course this Dina is such an Dina,
Speaker 1: I mean, and she she has her own like sub
Speaker 1: story as well, but like when you meet Dinah, she's
Speaker 1: such an antagonistic asshole, like you know it it doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily justify the violence against her. But I also it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know that Cindy is already upset. Uh Dina
Speaker 1: does not approach the situation in a way that does
Speaker 1: remotely like cool or calm or anything, and so I
Speaker 1: feel like it's justified in story of like, you know,
Speaker 1: particularly when you first meet her, before you get those
Speaker 1: like more tender moments and you get more context for her,
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, I get why Cindy is like pissed
Speaker 1: at at at this lady. But also as as shitty
Speaker 1: as all the men are in the movie The Men,
Speaker 1: you never really get the feeling that any of the
Speaker 1: women are actually threatened by them, though in real life
Speaker 1: that might not be the case. Um in the film,
Speaker 1: you don't. You don't get that impression, right, that's true,
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, with Alexandra's um client early on, where
Speaker 1: he only has forty bucks and he's like trying to
Speaker 1: short change her and like she's she has none of it,
Speaker 1: and it ends up like if the situation flares up,
Speaker 1: but eventually it's fine and she has control of the situation.
Speaker 1: She gets her forty bucks, right at least, I forget.
Speaker 1: I don't think she ever does she not because the
Speaker 1: cops in fear. Yeah, but then she she does meet
Speaker 1: up with Resumek, who gives her money, but resume is
Speaker 1: also um, it's complicated. Yeah, but that's I mean right.
Speaker 1: And then also, like I wanted to mention that even
Speaker 1: though Cindy is literally dragging Dina by her hair and
Speaker 1: being violent towards her and all this stuff, I can't
Speaker 1: speak from personal experience, but I have to imagine that she,
Speaker 1: as a black trans woman, would feel very betrayed by
Speaker 1: Chester cheating on her with a cis white woman. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it, Like I'm not
Speaker 1: necessarily pro her hitting Dinah, but I don't know, I am.
Speaker 1: I totally was, Yeah, if anyone's going to do it, it
Speaker 1: it should be her, right, right. It feels like it's
Speaker 1: not it's not it's not really abusive. Yeah, She's just
Speaker 1: she was betrayed and they were having fun. It just
Speaker 1: looks it looks like it looks good. They smoked myth together.
Speaker 1: It's fine. It is. It's like different rules. It's so
Speaker 1: because it's like not not to excuse a kidnapping, but
Speaker 1: it seems like a pretty light kidnapping because because by
Speaker 1: the time they're on the bus, like even Dinah is
Speaker 1: kind of like joking about it. She's like, oh, can
Speaker 1: I pick up my hair tie, is that okay, I'm
Speaker 1: still your captive, But like, can I put my hair back?
Speaker 1: And Sandy's like, yeah, fine whatever, and it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is a very friendly kidnapping. They go to a
Speaker 1: show together, they you know, it's um yeah. When they
Speaker 1: went to the bar and the door guy said she's
Speaker 1: she's only got one shoe, she said she's from the hills,
Speaker 1: She's a hillbilly, and the door guys just like sure, fine, whatever, great. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I keep having to remind myself that, like,
Speaker 1: these are people whose survival instinct and is just like
Speaker 1: survival mentality is so much more heightened than mine needs
Speaker 1: to be because of my privilege, Like I don't need
Speaker 1: to be out on the streets where the risk of
Speaker 1: danger and violence against me is much greater. So I
Speaker 1: have to remind myself, like, while I wouldn't drag another
Speaker 1: woman out onto the street by her hair, like I
Speaker 1: am not put in danger every day. Also that the
Speaker 1: stakes are a little higher when you consider that going
Speaker 1: back to jail for either of these women most likely
Speaker 1: means being put in a jail with men, right, very true,
Speaker 1: I think that. Yeah, And and the fact that that
Speaker 1: that even though they're not credited as writing it, the
Speaker 1: fact that Maya and Kiki are writing this story from
Speaker 1: their own experiences. You know, they're presenting true experiences and
Speaker 1: they're presenting it in a way that is very fun
Speaker 1: to watch. And I mean, yeah, that's why the movie
Speaker 1: is good, Like it's it's because of them and their
Speaker 1: performances and their input and there lived experiences that get
Speaker 1: adapted to the screen. Like yeah, that's why this movie
Speaker 1: was a success. And it's like, let's be honest, if
Speaker 1: we had just let Sean and Chris like, yeah, guess
Speaker 1: their way around what the relationship between Cindy and Dinah
Speaker 1: would be, they would have gotten it so wrong, like
Speaker 1: it would have been recoiem for a Dream with a
Speaker 1: song exactly. It would have just and and so yeah
Speaker 1: everything and this movie that it just that you're just like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't but it's like it's they're they're telling their
Speaker 1: own story in an authentic way and it's based on
Speaker 1: true experiences, and it's just like okay that that it
Speaker 1: is what it is like they're they're telling their story.
Speaker 1: M hmm. Now it was a good time to cut
Speaker 1: to our next segment with another special guest. She is
Speaker 1: a comedian, a writer for The Portland's Mercury. She's an
Speaker 1: associate producer of the Portlands Queer Comedy Festival. It's Dhalia Bell. Welcome,
Speaker 1: thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: having me. Of course, of course, so we just wanted
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on the representation of black trans
Speaker 1: women in the movie Tangerine specifically, and then if you
Speaker 1: had any other thoughts on trans representation, black trans representation,
Speaker 1: the intersection of those things in media in general. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So um, to be entirely honest, I did have to
Speaker 1: go back and watch the movie about two nights ago,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it did not wrote me. Well, I will
Speaker 1: say that, And I really had to do some personal
Speaker 1: soul searching because you know, initially I'm like, am I
Speaker 1: so puritanical or am I so caught up in respectability
Speaker 1: that I'm opposed to the representation of a black trans
Speaker 1: women as sex workers? And I thought about that and no,
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely not. And quite honestly, many of my friends
Speaker 1: are full service sex workers. So I'm like, no, that's
Speaker 1: not my issue. Is even necessarily the drug use, I
Speaker 1: would say, No, I do understand where drug use does
Speaker 1: play a role in both trans culture and the broader
Speaker 1: queer culture. Um simply you know, being stuck in situations
Speaker 1: where we're trying to find ourselves, and in many cases
Speaker 1: I've been a pro drug advocate. However, the representation I
Speaker 1: feel is very sloppy and relies on some very familiar
Speaker 1: troops that I think, generally speaking, representations of trans women
Speaker 1: are guilty of. For example, the image of so First
Speaker 1: I do want to come in the movie for casting
Speaker 1: what I would say are realistic, average looking trans women,
Speaker 1: as opposed to even a program I love like Pose,
Speaker 1: where you have the obviously over glamorized methods that people
Speaker 1: want to see, but all the same, I feel it's
Speaker 1: a very messy image of trans sex workers. It kind
Speaker 1: of paints us as buffoons, sort of the old step
Speaker 1: and fetch it. Addition, then the trope of you know,
Speaker 1: fighting over the affection of some ne'er do well sis
Speaker 1: male you know, yeah, exactly, like why is that always
Speaker 1: our ultimate prize? You know, like surely there's nothing else
Speaker 1: that trans women could possibly want than some random CIS losers.
Speaker 1: And that is putting it nicely, honestly, Like chester Chester sucks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's garbage. I mean, I I I speak only for myself,
Speaker 1: but honestly, I think I speak for a lot of
Speaker 1: especially contemporary trans women, when I say many of us
Speaker 1: do ultimately embrace what appears to be exclusively lesbian lifestyles
Speaker 1: or ways of being or identities, because our experiences with
Speaker 1: six men are so negative and at a certain point,
Speaker 1: you feel like, is this worth my time? Is this
Speaker 1: something worth chasing after? And that's a question that's never
Speaker 1: really raised in any depiction of trans women that I
Speaker 1: have ever seen. There's always this element of us longing
Speaker 1: for the affection of this class. I I don't know why. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I totally see your point. The first I've seen this
Speaker 1: movie a few times now, Um, I love it. I
Speaker 1: think it's such a long romp, And of course I'm
Speaker 1: coming at it, you know, Jamie and I are coming
Speaker 1: at it with blind spots, with our backgrounds. So I
Speaker 1: hadn't even fully considered your point about the kind of
Speaker 1: buffoonery that is arguably displayed. I always sort of interpreted
Speaker 1: that is, Oh, but they're fun, and they're they're just
Speaker 1: you know, they're goofy, and we're seeing like rather than
Speaker 1: a tragic story, which is how many transnarratives play out.
Speaker 1: We're seeing a fun a fun romp. So that was
Speaker 1: like always my kind of like, you know, just interpretation
Speaker 1: of that. But I totally see your point. And I
Speaker 1: had to look at that, you know, numerous times, because
Speaker 1: is it inherently buffoonery to have trans performers in you know,
Speaker 1: slapstick sort of roles and to make that argument would
Speaker 1: be very problematic as well. Um, but I think for me,
Speaker 1: it's a matter of looking at that intersection of black
Speaker 1: heritage and black history within American cinema and then trans representation,
Speaker 1: and when you really look at the then diagram of that,
Speaker 1: I think there are some issues raised. You know, we
Speaker 1: were we've been talking a lot about how, I mean,
Speaker 1: the fact that the movie is written and directed by
Speaker 1: sis white guys as well. Um, yeah, likely you know
Speaker 1: if factors into a lot of what's going on within
Speaker 1: the movie that maybe doesn't match up quite well, and
Speaker 1: how to lead actresses in this movie. We're not credited
Speaker 1: as writers even though they had a huge influence on
Speaker 1: what happened in the story, and then ultimately all the
Speaker 1: credit going back to you know, the the tissue grad
Speaker 1: um is exhausting So that was the first time you
Speaker 1: had seen it? Is that right? Is that? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And it was interesting. Is My partner is also non
Speaker 1: binary trans their gender fluid though, but it was their
Speaker 1: second or third time saying it. And they're more a
Speaker 1: fan of like queer cinema. So we've been they've been
Speaker 1: like taking me on this tour of all the queer
Speaker 1: classics and you know, kind of realizing some holes and
Speaker 1: blind spots and a lot of the films that a
Speaker 1: lot of us felt were formative, you know, just because
Speaker 1: at that time the people that were in the writing
Speaker 1: room weren't necessarily part of our community. Or even the
Speaker 1: people in the writing rooms who are part of the
Speaker 1: community are likely those who fit into a specific narrative
Speaker 1: that makes That makes a ton of sense. We hadn't
Speaker 1: even come at it from that angle. That makes a
Speaker 1: ton of sense. Um, Is there any I mean not
Speaker 1: to we don't want to put you on the spot,
Speaker 1: but what would you like to see more from in
Speaker 1: terms of trans representation in in film in general and
Speaker 1: black trans representation. Yeah, I guess what I would really
Speaker 1: like to see would be I guess the happy medium,
Speaker 1: you know, the happy medium, even if we're we're going
Speaker 1: to be represented exclusively as sex workers. You know, I
Speaker 1: I get why that trope is still useful. Um, but
Speaker 1: even if we're going to do that, I would like
Speaker 1: it to be maybe a happy medium between say Tangerine
Speaker 1: and Pose, where you have these realistic, average looking, perhaps
Speaker 1: quote unquote nonpassable trans sex workers who are empowered, not
Speaker 1: necessarily wealthy, not necessarily glamorous, but not being exploited or
Speaker 1: you know, being reckless or things of this sort, but
Speaker 1: actually flourishing, thriving. Maybe a montage sort of show where
Speaker 1: maybe you have the U trans call girl and then
Speaker 1: you of the trans businesswoman and you know, the trans
Speaker 1: whatever this dude does, he's a but you know, just
Speaker 1: allow us to be human being and not just the
Speaker 1: sort of trout either for cheap laughs or otherwise gratuity
Speaker 1: or sexualization things of that sort. Absolutely. Yeah, And as
Speaker 1: we've been discussing, you know, representation is often unless it's
Speaker 1: representation of like assist white wealthy men who there's an
Speaker 1: abundance of representation for in cinema. You know, we talked
Speaker 1: about how there's an evolution in terms of representation. It
Speaker 1: goes from erasure to negative representation, two steps in the
Speaker 1: right direction to positive representation, and it feels like we're
Speaker 1: still somewhere in the steps in the right direction phase
Speaker 1: in terms of trans representation in film and t and
Speaker 1: Tangerine feels to me like a good step in the
Speaker 1: right direction, but maybe not what we want to see ideally,
Speaker 1: especially because the people behind the camera and taking credit
Speaker 1: for writing the script and things like that are white
Speaker 1: sis men telling the story of black trans women. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, would you would you agree with that
Speaker 1: assessment that, you know, Tangerine's a step in the right direction.
Speaker 1: I think it will definitely be included in the cannon
Speaker 1: long term. You know, I think Tyler Perry still has
Speaker 1: his place within black cinema. That doesn't mean I'm going
Speaker 1: to necessarily watch a Tyler Perry movie on purpose. Um,
Speaker 1: media isn't your favorite? Yeah, you have to spring Tyler
Speaker 1: Perry on someone get to walk in the room and
Speaker 1: it's already been on for forty five minutes and you're like,
Speaker 1: all right, it's too late. Um. Any other any other
Speaker 1: thoughts you'd like to share? No, I try to keep
Speaker 1: most of my thoughts to myself. It helps me keep
Speaker 1: you friends well. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: This has been so wonderful. Um, give us your your plugs.
Speaker 1: Where can people follow you online? Anything you'd like to plug?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well I'm gonna behave um. So I think
Speaker 1: one of the more fun places to follow me is
Speaker 1: on Instagram at mixed at Dahlia Bell, Mix thing an
Speaker 1: x dot Dahlia Bell. You could also follow me on
Speaker 1: Facebook at Dahlia dalis Bell or mix Dahlia Bell when
Speaker 1: it is my comedy page, which kind of mirrors my Instagram.
Speaker 1: This is way too long of an exploration us. Keep
Speaker 1: keep going. We want to keep me want to follow
Speaker 1: you everywhere. Okay, if you follow my personal Facebook page,
Speaker 1: it's mostly my random political rantings and existential dread that
Speaker 1: I experienced every morning around two am, of course. But
Speaker 1: my instagram are really cute pictures of me, so that
Speaker 1: that's really where you should get. What a great balance though,
Speaker 1: of depending on the vibes that you're seeking, there's always
Speaker 1: there's a lot of options, there's always thank you, Thank
Speaker 1: you so much again, Thank you you were wonderful. Have
Speaker 1: a good day. Yeah, thanks again, Dahlia And now we're
Speaker 1: back with Kai Choyce. Um, does anyone have any other thoughts, feelings, feelings. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I talk to us about your feelings. Kind So I
Speaker 1: just think everyone should should know that. Um, if you
Speaker 1: got to go to donut time, you're very lucky. It was.
Speaker 1: They actually have really good donuts there. But it later
Speaker 1: became a tray host tacos, and then it became a
Speaker 1: tray host donuts, and now it might be nothing. Sue,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think it's doing very well.
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but I just I don't see
Speaker 1: people there ever. I haven't either. I know, I passed
Speaker 1: there a couple of days ago. No aim that we
Speaker 1: were going to watch this movie. I was like, goddamn,
Speaker 1: seven years. Seven years makes all the difference. I feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of a lot of stories that portray
Speaker 1: sex work tend to use that portrayal to remove agency
Speaker 1: from the characters and to kind of denigrade the experience.
Speaker 1: And you don't see that happening here. In every situation,
Speaker 1: the women seem to be very in control of the situation,
Speaker 1: regardless of whether or not that is always the case
Speaker 1: in real life with these characters. Like even with with Resumek,
Speaker 1: you you don't feel like he's exploiting these women, and
Speaker 1: the one guy who is trying to exploit someone ends up.
Speaker 1: It ends up, you know, getting this ship kicked out,
Speaker 1: which is sure karma baby, uh yeah. And and and
Speaker 1: that the story. I mean, the story covers a lot
Speaker 1: of ground, but every character gets a full arc, And
Speaker 1: the strongest bond in the movie is the bond between
Speaker 1: Cindy and Alexandra. And like, I just it's really fun
Speaker 1: to see, especially like a female friendship that you see
Speaker 1: have ups and downs and it's not just like a
Speaker 1: perfectly written like we're best friend, we always get along,
Speaker 1: everything's great, la la la. It's like they disagree with
Speaker 1: each other every other second, but there is such a
Speaker 1: clear bond. Maya and Kiki have such strong chemistry um
Speaker 1: as performers that it just like it just holds the
Speaker 1: movie together in such an amazing way that I cannot
Speaker 1: picture two different performers in this movie like they make
Speaker 1: the movie. I mean they were like good friends in
Speaker 1: real life too, yes, before they were cast yep. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like the the iPhones got more more airtime
Speaker 1: than they needed to in this Like people talked about
Speaker 1: the iPhones more than they talked about myan Kiki is
Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta turn that around. Another thing kind
Speaker 1: of piggyback on um, what you were saying just a
Speaker 1: moment ago, Kai is the way sex work is often
Speaker 1: portrayed in movies and media. Another thing will do I
Speaker 1: think it's like a plot device is treated as like
Speaker 1: a plot device that a character needs to overcome, right that, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, a life that the characters are trying desperately
Speaker 1: to escape from. And maybe some of them are, but
Speaker 1: that isn't really a component of this movie, at least
Speaker 1: not on the day that we see these characters. But
Speaker 1: then another thing is, like I think that sex workers
Speaker 1: will often be characterized in such a way that they
Speaker 1: are shown as having like no moral compass almost or
Speaker 1: that they wouldn't care sex means nothing to them, or
Speaker 1: they don't they can't form real human relationships, so they
Speaker 1: would never have a fiance or a boyfriend or you know,
Speaker 1: anything like that. But like, like Cindy, this whole movie
Speaker 1: is driven by her envy basically of having been cheated on.
Speaker 1: Just yeah, another thing that humanizes these characters. And this
Speaker 1: movie also does a thing that's kind of subtle, but
Speaker 1: every so often we'll hear some of the sex worker
Speaker 1: characters tell a story like from their childhood. Like there's
Speaker 1: one little anecdote where Alexandra is like, Oh, I had
Speaker 1: a Barney doll and then I put it in the bathtub,
Speaker 1: and then I think maybe she's like the Madame of
Speaker 1: the party room. But she says something like, yeah, me
Speaker 1: and my sister would always like I would. Is that
Speaker 1: what it says? I'm her LinkedIn like like it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what the best terminology is, but
Speaker 1: I love the embellish credits. Fancy she um. She says
Speaker 1: something like, yeah, me, my sister would go to these
Speaker 1: dances when we were kids, and we're supposed to bring
Speaker 1: a boy, but I could never find boys. What I
Speaker 1: would take. I had to go dance with my sister
Speaker 1: and it was just like stories of them like and
Speaker 1: it's like, yes, like sex workers used to be children.
Speaker 1: They have interiority, they have feelings, they have jealousy, they
Speaker 1: have like the whole range of emotions. That's a right,
Speaker 1: that's the trip. They say, if you're ever kidnapped by
Speaker 1: a serial killer, you should tell them a story involving
Speaker 1: your childhood because it's the best way to humanize yourself
Speaker 1: to a complete stranger, because being a kid supposedly it
Speaker 1: works much better than screaming let me go. So in
Speaker 1: this kid, the movie is the kidnapped and we are
Speaker 1: the serial killers. It's it's true. That's I feel like
Speaker 1: a common misstep in movies in general, as just um,
Speaker 1: when you're trying to subvert a narrative. The message is
Speaker 1: more like I'm not like the other girls, I'm like this.
Speaker 1: But what this movie does is just say these are
Speaker 1: these characters. They're like this, They're the movie is not
Speaker 1: comparing them to other people. They're just showing this is
Speaker 1: a night in the life of these characters, like take
Speaker 1: it or leave it, and it seems like everyone wanted
Speaker 1: to take it. My cat is, be honest, someone's cat.
Speaker 1: She's so cute. Awflee. I wanted to really quickly touch
Speaker 1: on Resmique and his family. Resmik is not the central
Speaker 1: character of the movie, obviously, but I did want to
Speaker 1: um just bring up because he is. He is an
Speaker 1: Armenian immigrant who moved to Los Angeles. There is a
Speaker 1: large Armenian population in Los Angeles, but you never see
Speaker 1: them represented. And I did a little out of research
Speaker 1: on this because I mean, you do get this movie
Speaker 1: does such a great job of giving every character like
Speaker 1: an interior life. And so for Resmique, he's dealing with
Speaker 1: his mother in law. You know, he's he's perhaps misrepresenting
Speaker 1: how he spends his time to his family. We're not
Speaker 1: exactly sure, um, but we we see that he has
Speaker 1: a home life. We see that he has his own
Speaker 1: interior struggles, and that is not something that is usually
Speaker 1: lent to an Armenian character, because Armenian characters. UM. I
Speaker 1: did a little research just to kind of confirm. It
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know how many Armenian characters I've
Speaker 1: seen on in pop culture really at all, And representation
Speaker 1: for Armenian people Kardashian's aside is extremely low. Most of
Speaker 1: the examples you'll find are on TV UM, and they're
Speaker 1: usually characterized rather violently. UM. You'll see Armenian characters often
Speaker 1: pop up on like shows like The Sopranos, as like
Speaker 1: mob bosses or things like that. There's definitely some stock characters.
Speaker 1: When Armenian characters appear on screen, they appear in a
Speaker 1: very particular way. And so you know, again Rasmik and
Speaker 1: his family are not the center of the movie. But
Speaker 1: I do think it's like many things this movie does,
Speaker 1: it is a step in the right direction, because I mean,
Speaker 1: in in movies about l A in general, you are
Speaker 1: seeing one zip code in a gigantic city, like you're
Speaker 1: seeing Beverly Hills, usually the Class Warfare zip code, and
Speaker 1: it is a gigantic and many parts of it are
Speaker 1: are wonderful and cool, um, but you don't get to
Speaker 1: see most of those parts. And so I thought it
Speaker 1: was really nice to see an Armenian family represented, and
Speaker 1: I sincerely hope that um, that continues to happen moving
Speaker 1: forward and we get to see all sorts of Armenian characters.
Speaker 1: I would have loved to see more of Rasm's wife. Um,
Speaker 1: his wife, No, she does, she does have a name,
Speaker 1: her name is Eva, but I would have loved to
Speaker 1: see more of her. And like, so, yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: yet another thing that this movie does that most movies
Speaker 1: about Los Angeles do not. I agree, and UH to
Speaker 1: our Armenian listeners, UM, if you have any other other
Speaker 1: examples of positive representation you have seen on screen of
Speaker 1: Armenian people, let us know, because we'd like to check
Speaker 1: those out and refer us to UH works and characters
Speaker 1: that that are that are worth covering. We're always listening.
Speaker 1: But yeah, there there have been some pieces written in
Speaker 1: the past several years about how extremely limited there's one
Speaker 1: character on the Sopranos, there's a series of characters on
Speaker 1: the Shield. Okay, there's a character on Weeds, and then
Speaker 1: there's the Kardashians. End of list. Um, so we do
Speaker 1: need more Armenian representation. Yes, Um, does Tangerine pass the
Speaker 1: Bechdel test for sure? Lots lots and lots between a
Speaker 1: bunch of difference between all sorts of pairings of characters.
Speaker 1: And again, the main like, like we've said, the relationship
Speaker 1: that's really at the core of this movie is the
Speaker 1: friendship between Cindy and Alexandra. And they talk all the
Speaker 1: time about I'm sure they're talking about Chester sometimes, but
Speaker 1: other times they're talking about fish, they're talking about Dinah,
Speaker 1: there's talking about like Alexander's performance and singing and you know,
Speaker 1: all all kinds of stuff. Dina and Cindy talk at
Speaker 1: length as well. Uh. There is conversation between Resumeque's um
Speaker 1: wife and her mother that is usually concerning him, but
Speaker 1: there are a few line exchanges that don't and they
Speaker 1: it can earn their daughter. And there's a lot of
Speaker 1: This movie passes a whole bunch for sure. All that
Speaker 1: to say, Yeah, also another rare example of a movie
Speaker 1: that passes the Vito Russo test passes then a test
Speaker 1: the Vito Russo test um. It basically examines if there
Speaker 1: are any queer characters in the movie at all, and
Speaker 1: if removing them would impact the plot at all. Basically,
Speaker 1: they have to be essential to the story and they
Speaker 1: can't be They cannot only be identified by their queerness.
Speaker 1: They have to have like other characteristics and interiority. So
Speaker 1: this movie very handily passes that test. Like I said,
Speaker 1: the DuVernay test um, kind of all of them, it
Speaker 1: really hits all the marks as far as our nipple
Speaker 1: scale goes um zero to five nipples based on its
Speaker 1: representation of women. And also part of me wants to
Speaker 1: kind of retool our nipple scale a bit, I know,
Speaker 1: but I think it would behoove us to kind of
Speaker 1: just reword it or like read to a little bit
Speaker 1: to it being more about like, how does this movie
Speaker 1: fair from an intersectional feminist point of view? So either way,
Speaker 1: looking at it from either version of our nipple scale. Um,
Speaker 1: it gets pretty top marks. I think I'm going to
Speaker 1: give a bit of four point five. The fact that
Speaker 1: it is a what I think is a good step
Speaker 1: in the right direction of trans representation, black trans representation specifically. Also,
Speaker 1: we didn't really talk about this, but Cindy is Afro Latina,
Speaker 1: which is another representation we often don't get in media
Speaker 1: in general. So I appreciated that aspect of her character
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I think that it handles a lot
Speaker 1: of things very well, as we've discussed the humanization of
Speaker 1: sex workers and sex work and the focus on the
Speaker 1: friendship between Cindy and Alexandra, and um, the fact that
Speaker 1: a story, again a story about black trans sex workers
Speaker 1: is fodder for like tragedy porn, and that's not what
Speaker 1: this movie was at all. It was a funny genres
Speaker 1: in one. Yeah. I I loved all those things. I
Speaker 1: love this movie. I'm gonna watch it every Christmas and
Speaker 1: this is the Christmas movie, right. Yeah, So where it
Speaker 1: gets taken off for me is again this idea of, well,
Speaker 1: the only way we're going to be allowed to tell,
Speaker 1: like learn about trans people or hear their stories is
Speaker 1: through the lens of sis white men at this moment
Speaker 1: in history. You know, this should have been a movie
Speaker 1: made by trans filmmakers. So um step step um. So
Speaker 1: yeah four point five and I will give I'll split
Speaker 1: my nipples between Cindy and Alexandra. Yeah, I was going
Speaker 1: to go, I think a four play to five on
Speaker 1: this movie. I I feel weird marking it much higher,
Speaker 1: because while this movie has so many wonderful elements going
Speaker 1: for it in terms of representation, I do still feel
Speaker 1: like I always get a bit of like a when
Speaker 1: you look up the director and you find out, okay,
Speaker 1: this is and um. Something that bugs me that we
Speaker 1: we discussed a little bit as well, is that the
Speaker 1: director goes on to leverage the success of this movie
Speaker 1: into making The Florida Project, another wonderful movie that does
Speaker 1: not involve any of the cast from Tangerine, and we
Speaker 1: haven't seen um really many actors from this movie since,
Speaker 1: even in that same director's work. And I do feel like,
Speaker 1: particularly if you are an n y U guy who
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that you know he didn't do
Speaker 1: a great job. I think he did, but I do
Speaker 1: feel like you you you cannot in good faith use
Speaker 1: to some extent marginalized community story to launch your own
Speaker 1: career and then not prioritize lifting everyone with you like
Speaker 1: that is just you can't. You can't, you can't. Um.
Speaker 1: Other than that, I do um agree with everything you said, Caitlin.
Speaker 1: I love the representation of black trans women. I love
Speaker 1: the friendship. I love that it's a romp. Uh just
Speaker 1: there's it's so so, so so funny. Um and I
Speaker 1: credit you know of it to the lead actresses. They're
Speaker 1: so so good. And and also you know, you get
Speaker 1: a representation of just a lot of Los Angeles that
Speaker 1: you normally wouldn't. You have the picture of an Armenian
Speaker 1: immigrant family, you have their you know, sex worker representation.
Speaker 1: This movie has got everything. Uh so so yeah, I'll
Speaker 1: go uh four point too fun five. I will give
Speaker 1: two to Cindy, two to Alexandra, and one quarter two
Speaker 1: Rasmics baby. Oh oh. I thought you could say resmics dog,
Speaker 1: but that's probably I would have given it to the dog.
Speaker 1: I mean that's just me different people. Yes, how about you?
Speaker 1: I want to I want to say a four, and
Speaker 1: I would say the only reason I'm not giving it
Speaker 1: a five is because of the issues that you guys
Speaker 1: brought up, but also because there was a little bit
Speaker 1: of a Tarantino is um going on here where I
Speaker 1: think that anytime you have a white characters using the
Speaker 1: N word to display how terrible of a person they are,
Speaker 1: it should at least there should be a black person
Speaker 1: directing it or writing it or or something, because by
Speaker 1: all appearances they got that pass from which was not necessary.
Speaker 1: They were terrible enough as it. As it went right,
Speaker 1: you could replace the N word with a monster energy
Speaker 1: drink in the hand, and you know, we get the
Speaker 1: same impression, and we get it. We get it. Yeah, well, Kai,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having
Speaker 1: me this fun. Yeah, good to good to see you.
Speaker 1: It's been a while. Um, Where can people follow your stuff?
Speaker 1: Check out your podcast? You guys can listen to my
Speaker 1: podcast anywhere podcasts are found. It's called Women Who Kill.
Speaker 1: It is a true crime comedy podcast and the focus
Speaker 1: of each episode is a lady who is a murderer,
Speaker 1: so we don't talk about any dudes who rape and
Speaker 1: murder unless they're part of a couple, which it's only
Speaker 1: happened a couple of times. You can also find me
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram at Kai Choice. That's k A.
Speaker 1: I c H O y C E and uh, I
Speaker 1: mean that's about it. We're not doing live shows these days.
Speaker 1: Maybe one day we'll be back to it, but otherwise
Speaker 1: you can catch me on podcast. You can catch me
Speaker 1: being highly inappropriate on social media. I really thoroughly enjoy
Speaker 1: your social media presence, if I may say thank you.
Speaker 1: Speaking of social media, you can follow us on Twitter
Speaker 1: and Instagram at bachtel Cast. We've got a Patreon ak Matreon.
Speaker 1: It's five dollars a month. It gets you to bonus episodes,
Speaker 1: plus our entire back catalog of all of our bonus episodes.
Speaker 1: And um, you guys gotta start using protagonist. By the way,
Speaker 1: Protagonia it in. You can have it. Thanks, thanks for
Speaker 1: tuning in, See you next time. Hi,