Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.
Speaker 1: Never told you protection of I Heart Radio. And it's
Speaker 1: time today for another female first, which means we are
Speaker 1: joined by our good friend and co worker Eves. Hey, y'all, Hi,
Speaker 1: how how are you? We haven't seen you in a while.
Speaker 1: We're in our virtual studios and you have moved, right,
Speaker 1: I have moved. Um, it's been a wild ride. So
Speaker 1: you know, if I sound any different, that's why I
Speaker 1: am in a new room. I have a new recording
Speaker 1: set up here. But um, I'm lucky to have moved.
Speaker 1: I can't complain that I'm in a place where I
Speaker 1: can stay and I can sleep, and I have shelter
Speaker 1: over my head, so all is well in that regard.
Speaker 1: Of course, There's a lot more going on in the world,
Speaker 1: and I'm all involved in that world. But the small
Speaker 1: container of a new home feels pretty nice. I like it.
Speaker 1: There's sort of a running joke during pandemic times when
Speaker 1: people are interviewed, um are on these kinds of things,
Speaker 1: they always have books behind them because it's, you know,
Speaker 1: showing off that you're smart, or it's just it looks
Speaker 1: nice and you have books behind you. And so do I.
Speaker 1: But yours look a much more clean than mind you
Speaker 1: for someone who has just moved and I have been
Speaker 1: here for several years. In my world, it's like it's
Speaker 1: gonna topple a minute. Don't give me too much credit
Speaker 1: because the only thing you see is the books. And
Speaker 1: the books are one of the first things that I organized,
Speaker 1: because it was so easy to just say, Okay, here's
Speaker 1: a box of books. Put it on the shelf, so
Speaker 1: like that's in order, and it looks nice, but you
Speaker 1: know that's order a monkey chaos. It's just really satisfying
Speaker 1: to get your books out and were like putting it
Speaker 1: all in order how you want to do it, whether
Speaker 1: it's like aesthetically or alphabetically, and then you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: look I've got books. Yeah, so I promise you is
Speaker 1: not about me looking smart smarter, Yes, sure, just to
Speaker 1: put that out there. My ego has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with the books behind me. Sure. Sure. It is a
Speaker 1: very nice frame. I used to do a lot of videos,
Speaker 1: so I appreciate there's books on one side kind of offset.
Speaker 1: And then you've got your microphone. Thank you. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: didn't expect a composition compliment, but I'm always always ready
Speaker 1: with that. You know what, Samantha, you look good too.
Speaker 1: You've got a blur. She's got the skype blur going.
Speaker 1: I'm just the blur. I don't I don't actually want
Speaker 1: you to see what's behind me, because there's nothing about
Speaker 1: behind me other than maybe some concerned about like how
Speaker 1: are you living right now, Samantha, what is wrong with you?
Speaker 1: So I just blur it all out and all you
Speaker 1: can see is color. Hopefully I stand out in that
Speaker 1: brightness that might say something about your how you deal
Speaker 1: with emotions. Yes, I just want to blow it out.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to get to in depth. I was.
Speaker 1: You're getting pretty deep right now. I know. I know,
Speaker 1: well it was my job for a while. Um. I know,
Speaker 1: listeners know I'm very annoying when it comes to like
Speaker 1: fonts and transitions and movies composition. So I gotta let
Speaker 1: it out sometimes I feel you like I'm mad at it,
Speaker 1: um and it kind of Books is a good segue
Speaker 1: into the person we're talking about today. Actually, so can
Speaker 1: you tell us who did you bring? Yes, True books
Speaker 1: is a good segue. Today we'll be talking about Mary
Speaker 1: se Cole, who has a very very interesting history and biography.
Speaker 1: So I brought her to the table today because her
Speaker 1: autobiography has been considered the first one that was written
Speaker 1: by a black woman in Britain. But there is a
Speaker 1: huge asterisk on that. I'll go ahead and say the
Speaker 1: name of the autobiography, which is the Wonderful Adventures of
Speaker 1: Mrs skel in many Lands, which is a great like
Speaker 1: a great title. UM as a person who's an aspiring
Speaker 1: adventurer and like just loves the idea of travel, and
Speaker 1: there are so much culture and history and just social
Speaker 1: implications that are wrapped up in travel based on like
Speaker 1: who had access to actually be able to travel. UM
Speaker 1: was super interested in, you know, the outward appearance of
Speaker 1: like who she was. UM. But yeah, like I said,
Speaker 1: there's a huge asterisk on this one because of the
Speaker 1: controversy that surrounds the truth of her autobiography and what
Speaker 1: actually happened in her story. UM. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: we'll get into in that respect. UM. And I think
Speaker 1: that ties in well to the thing that we usually
Speaker 1: say in these conversations, which is the disclaimer around what
Speaker 1: the first is, what a first means, And in Mary's
Speaker 1: Sea Cole's case, a lot of people wouldn't even say
Speaker 1: that it's the first, um, because of her history and
Speaker 1: her ancestry, you know, depending on what side you talked
Speaker 1: to in this debate. UM. But yeah, I don't want
Speaker 1: to get to ahead of myself, but I'll just say that.
Speaker 1: I just think it's a great opportunity to talk about
Speaker 1: what a first actually means, you know, what it means
Speaker 1: to have sorts of debates like this when it comes
Speaker 1: to the historical record and biographies. Yeah, I don't want
Speaker 1: to go I wanta go too too deep into that yet.
Speaker 1: I think I need to actually get into her story first.
Speaker 1: I love the title. I think that's the first thing.
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh my gosh, this sname steam so fantastical.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that so you're reading more about it, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, that's a lot of intensity in that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was. Um, I've been reading it on and off
Speaker 1: the book since you suggested it, Youse, and I love, like,
Speaker 1: not even the chapter titles, but at least from this
Speaker 1: or so I was reading it, UM had like sub
Speaker 1: chapter titles of what happens in the book, and they're excellent,
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't know how much of it's
Speaker 1: true or not, but every king. I was like, this
Speaker 1: woman did so much right right, oh man traveled everywhere. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the chapter titles are like very descriptive of what happened
Speaker 1: in her travels. Um so, and then there are also
Speaker 1: a lot of questionable fiction. There's a lot of questionable
Speaker 1: diction in the way that she refers to people and
Speaker 1: refers to herself. Um. Yeah. So it's one of those
Speaker 1: things like, well, you know, she gets to tell her
Speaker 1: own story, So there's the line between she's telling her
Speaker 1: own story and what actually happened, um and the bias
Speaker 1: that can come in in a person's own story, but
Speaker 1: also the truth of a person's own story that's coming
Speaker 1: from their own voice. Um yeah. So on that note,
Speaker 1: I guess I could say that she's been you know,
Speaker 1: kind of pit it in the same category as Florence Nightingale.
Speaker 1: And throughout the book, this debate that you know that
Speaker 1: has come up in terms of her biography is that
Speaker 1: she never called herself black. So, going back to what
Speaker 1: I said, she's considered to have written the first autobiography
Speaker 1: by a black woman, Well, she never called herself black.
Speaker 1: She called herself creole, and she had a mixed race
Speaker 1: ancestry and and I'm sure that you read this because
Speaker 1: you were reading the autobiography Annie, But she says in
Speaker 1: it in one place, I have good Scotch blood coursing
Speaker 1: in my veins, and that comes near the beginning of it.
Speaker 1: So she's very clear about, you know, her position on this.
Speaker 1: From the very beginning. She would describe herself as yellow um,
Speaker 1: and she was fair complexioned, and um. She had white
Speaker 1: father and a mother who was of mixed race ancestry
Speaker 1: as well, whom she called a creole as well. So um.
Speaker 1: There were also descriptions in the Book of Black People
Speaker 1: that where she specifically like barer parts where she says
Speaker 1: something like, while the good for nothing black cooks instead
Speaker 1: of lending me their a would standby and laugh with
Speaker 1: all their teeth. Just want to call in here that obviously,
Speaker 1: I'm using these quotes out of context. So if you
Speaker 1: would like to read the book yourself, of that would
Speaker 1: be great to do so you can see the lines
Speaker 1: that come around these, because I can't quote the whole
Speaker 1: book verbatim. Um, But there are a lot of instances
Speaker 1: where she others people and it's sort of clear that
Speaker 1: she's not considering them to be within the same group
Speaker 1: as her UM. But there are also instances in the
Speaker 1: book where she seems to be recognizing racial discrimination that
Speaker 1: she faced and commenting on that and commenting on issues
Speaker 1: like slavery, even though that didn't happen so much. But
Speaker 1: all of that said, it is just I would love
Speaker 1: to preface the conversation of the conversations that are around her,
Speaker 1: of all the myths and the myth making that has
Speaker 1: been happening and quote unquote campaigns around what her legacy
Speaker 1: should look like and what people who are supporters of
Speaker 1: Florence Nightingale want her legacy to be about. So just
Speaker 1: that's just a preface, and we could actually to talk
Speaker 1: about her life and her autobiography now, yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's a great preference, and I know we'll get to
Speaker 1: this probably at the end, but there has been sort
Speaker 1: of a very recent um campaign, as you say, are
Speaker 1: just sort of recognizing of Mary se Cole, and a
Speaker 1: lot of conversations around that are happening right now. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and always there are always conversations about, Okay, what were
Speaker 1: the missing or identified? Are ones that are legacies that
Speaker 1: were pushed to the bottom because of a person's race,
Speaker 1: because of Mary Seacol situation was a black woman, which
Speaker 1: is a conversation that's going around, Well, was her history
Speaker 1: suppressed or hidden because she was a black woman working
Speaker 1: within this imperialist space that was Britain and bringing her
Speaker 1: history back up in order to recognize that. And on
Speaker 1: the other hand, people just crediting her saying that you know,
Speaker 1: she was three quarters white. I'll just start by saying
Speaker 1: that she was born in Kingston, Jamaica in eighteen o five,
Speaker 1: so her mother lived there. Her father was white, he
Speaker 1: was from Scotland. There's a little bit of discrepancy over
Speaker 1: what his profession actually or his occupation actually was. He's
Speaker 1: been said that he was an officer in the British Army,
Speaker 1: but there are conversations around who he actually was. But
Speaker 1: he was white. Um. And then there was her mother,
Speaker 1: who was, like I said earlier, of mixed rass ancestry
Speaker 1: um and Mary called her mother creole like her. She
Speaker 1: supposedly learned her nursing and all her business skills from
Speaker 1: her mother, who ran a boarding house in Jamaica which
Speaker 1: was called Blundell Hall. And so yellow fever was like
Speaker 1: a common disease in the Caribbean at the time, and
Speaker 1: her mother probably learned the herbal practices that she practiced
Speaker 1: with one people, and she used on people from enslaved women,
Speaker 1: who in turn learned from their ancestors. So there was
Speaker 1: that passing down of herbal medicinal knowledge Um and she
Speaker 1: married Secol. Herself considered, like I said earlier, consider herself
Speaker 1: Creole in British rather than Black. And in her autobiography
Speaker 1: she didn't talk much about the socio political, the whole
Speaker 1: climate that was happening around her um as she was
Speaker 1: living and working in Jamaica, like the uprose scenes that
Speaker 1: were happening that enslaved people were organizing, or the abolition
Speaker 1: of the slave trade in slavery which happened in the
Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds. But she was aware of the situation
Speaker 1: with slavery in the US, and the Um mentioned the
Speaker 1: people who were escaping and commending them. So when she
Speaker 1: was born and just for us to talk about the climate,
Speaker 1: at the time she was born, slavery was still in
Speaker 1: practice in Jamaica, and in fact, enslaved people outnumbered white
Speaker 1: people greatly. On in Jamaica there were some free black
Speaker 1: people and then there were creoles on the island as well,
Speaker 1: people of mixed rightes ancestry, and Mary herself was born
Speaker 1: free and she had this pride to be a British subject,
Speaker 1: and she was committed to the idea of empire. She
Speaker 1: really wanted to go to London when she was a child,
Speaker 1: and she did end up doing that for the first
Speaker 1: time somewhere early in her life. And she's pretty she's
Speaker 1: pretty uh what is nebulous is the word. She's pretty
Speaker 1: vague about the details of her early life. In her autobiography,
Speaker 1: she kind of breezes through those points, like I'm trying
Speaker 1: to remember. What she said in her autobiography was something like,
Speaker 1: we don't need to mention my age, Like she she
Speaker 1: kind of didn't want her age to come up when
Speaker 1: she was talking about when she went to London. Yes,
Speaker 1: she even says something like give me a widow, give
Speaker 1: me that right. Not it was very uh, very yeah,
Speaker 1: it was. She didn't want it to be said, but um,
Speaker 1: it was in her earlier years when she went to London.
Speaker 1: She ended up going there for some time and then
Speaker 1: she left. Um. Oh, but I will mention that there
Speaker 1: was a part where she says she was teased or
Speaker 1: made fun of because of her complexion, along with a
Speaker 1: companion who was there with her, who she said was
Speaker 1: a little bit darker than her. Specifically, she said, I
Speaker 1: am only a little brown, a few shades duskier than
Speaker 1: the brunettes whom you all admire so much. But my
Speaker 1: companion was very dark and affair, if I can apply
Speaker 1: the term to her subject for their rude wit so UM.
Speaker 1: She talks about that experience, UM when she went to London.
Speaker 1: A year later, she went back to London, UM. And
Speaker 1: then she brought back with her a bunch of West
Speaker 1: Indian spices and homemade jams, and she stayed there for
Speaker 1: a few years. This time so she spent a lot
Speaker 1: of her earlier years traveling in the Caribbean and Central America, which,
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, it means that she had access
Speaker 1: to be able to travel to all those different places. UM.
Speaker 1: And she ran taverns, and she ran boarding houses, and
Speaker 1: along the way learned about medicine. UM. And she leaves
Speaker 1: out a lot of detail in the autobiography. It's actually
Speaker 1: of those first years. She details more of her later
Speaker 1: years in the autobiography, but there, even with the details
Speaker 1: that are there are often dubious UM and have been
Speaker 1: called into question after it was after the autobiography was published.
Speaker 1: So the detailed chronology of her life and exactly how
Speaker 1: she made a living at this time and this time
Speaker 1: and all the business ventors that she was in and
Speaker 1: what she actually sold, what she actually did, um has
Speaker 1: been called into question. But in her travel she did
Speaker 1: sell fugus, and she did help her mother and ran
Speaker 1: boarding houses and worked with her brother, and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of business ventors and and back and forth. One
Speaker 1: of things that she sold that she was clearly involved in.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I was trying to do a timeline before this,
Speaker 1: and I just got so confused and gave up and
Speaker 1: essentially came to the conclusion she traveled a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and did a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah, that's basically like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think putting together like first it was this and
Speaker 1: then she went to this place and then she went
Speaker 1: to this place. Is it would be very hard to
Speaker 1: do based on like because there are a lot of
Speaker 1: things that she said in her own autobiography, the things
Speaker 1: that other people said about her, quotes about her from
Speaker 1: military personnel, and then the historians who have done work
Speaker 1: on her, and um, Yeah, but she definitely did travel
Speaker 1: a lot, and she was in Central America, she was
Speaker 1: in England, and she she traveled. During her travel, she
Speaker 1: did tend to people and did sell provisions. So she
Speaker 1: did also Mary n One Sea Cole in eighteen thirty six.
Speaker 1: He died not long after, he died in eighteen forty four.
Speaker 1: And around the same time, like during these years, she
Speaker 1: had some things happened to her, like her mother also died.
Speaker 1: Her home and a boarding house caught on fire um
Speaker 1: and she was able to bring back up the boarding
Speaker 1: house bundle Hall, and was up and running with success
Speaker 1: within a few years. But here's you know, she's still
Speaker 1: traveling during this time. So in eighteen fifty she joined
Speaker 1: her brother in present day Panama, and Panama at the
Speaker 1: time saw a lot of travelers who were on their
Speaker 1: way to the California Gold Rush, and she went there.
Speaker 1: At the time. Before leaving, she had she talks about
Speaker 1: in the book how she had all this clothing and
Speaker 1: foods made, and all these jams and all the sausages.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm making up sausages. I can't remember
Speaker 1: all the foods she says she had, but she had
Speaker 1: a bunch of foods and was preparing things and Panama.
Speaker 1: She sold supplies to travelers and she ran a boarding
Speaker 1: house there where she served as a doctress, and that's
Speaker 1: what she called herself. She didn't call herself a nurse. UM.
Speaker 1: So she practiced in herbal medicine and followed in the
Speaker 1: same path as her mom and actually talks in the book,
Speaker 1: or says in the book how she admired her mom.
Speaker 1: I can't remember the specific in which that she used,
Speaker 1: but she looked up to her mom and says that
Speaker 1: she wanted to follow on her path and that was
Speaker 1: important to her. Yeah, yeah, I think I when I
Speaker 1: was putting together her story, and you know, you start
Speaker 1: with her mom was a respected had this boarding house
Speaker 1: was respected. I don't know that she would use the
Speaker 1: word doctress. But in medicine, practice medicine, and she um
Speaker 1: very Segel kind of followed in those same steps. She
Speaker 1: did those same things. Yeah, she did, and she got
Speaker 1: a reputation for helping people, um who got in cholera.
Speaker 1: She says in the book, she talks about a few
Speaker 1: of her medicinal recipes, not too many of them, but
Speaker 1: she talks about giving them water in which cinnamon had
Speaker 1: been boiled. Um. She talks about to use mercury and
Speaker 1: mustard poultices and plasters, but there's not a whole bunch
Speaker 1: that's known about the exact recipes that she used for
Speaker 1: her remedies. Um. And she also treated people who were
Speaker 1: her in fights. And while she was in Hannamashi opened
Speaker 1: a place called the British Hotel, which actually served as
Speaker 1: a restaurant. And she also around this time when she
Speaker 1: was in Central America, ran a woman only hotel. I
Speaker 1: just want to put in here because I found it
Speaker 1: really interesting. On the other podcast, Aid Your Savior, we
Speaker 1: just did an episode on cinnamon. It was a classic
Speaker 1: and mustard and those both have been used medicinally historically,
Speaker 1: so I personally found that very interesting. Nice. Yeah, um uh,
Speaker 1: there's a whole conversation about the the practices and the
Speaker 1: medicines that she actually used on people and her being
Speaker 1: discredited because of the practices that she used on people.
Speaker 1: And she didn't have any formal nursing training, um and
Speaker 1: things like that that we'll get into later. But um,
Speaker 1: there are a few more um things that she used
Speaker 1: that are listed in the book as well, um that
Speaker 1: you could look up. Yeah, so it's super interesting mustard,
Speaker 1: well oil, mustard the essential oil, and the mustard being
Speaker 1: the thing that's helping. And yeah, imagine you you know
Speaker 1: way more about that than I do anything that you
Speaker 1: just Yeah, it was. It was really interesting because it's
Speaker 1: not one of those things. Mustard is not something that
Speaker 1: comes to the forefront of my mind. And I've been
Speaker 1: doing a food show for a while and almost everything
Speaker 1: was used medicinally, um at some point, and mustard as
Speaker 1: one that was like huh because it lasted for a
Speaker 1: long time. People used mustard medicinally pretty like up into
Speaker 1: the eight undreds. Yeah, I um, this really is unrelated
Speaker 1: to the show at all, but I UM, I was
Speaker 1: looking up mustard essential oil for unrelated reason why it
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with mary Sea coal. Um, just
Speaker 1: because I was trying to figure out I one to
Speaker 1: make it inhaler that like has properties like what Sabby
Speaker 1: does for like the signings clearing, and um figured that
Speaker 1: like mustard maybe how full and realizing that it was like,
Speaker 1: um toxic in some ways. But anyway, that's like a
Speaker 1: whole aside. Um. But yeah, really interesting. UM. So yeah,
Speaker 1: anyway back to the story, I like this keep talking
Speaker 1: about you should look into a Sabby. There was Sabby
Speaker 1: smoke detector. Things really m h with Sabby smoke detector.
Speaker 1: What is that? Well, I think it's for if if
Speaker 1: you have trouble hearing, can't hear the Sabby smell, okay,
Speaker 1: and kind of that feel, um, we'll wake you up.
Speaker 1: It's you know, because you can't hear the alarm, then
Speaker 1: you'll have that going on. This was Sabby was an
Speaker 1: episode we did like three years ago. So this is
Speaker 1: all very rusty dusty in the back of my brain.
Speaker 1: But you know, maybe further research. But yes, we could
Speaker 1: go on to the side about horse radish and mustard
Speaker 1: and the Sabby products for a long time. But perhaps
Speaker 1: let's get back to Mary's seek. We have some more
Speaker 1: of our conversation with Ease, but first we have a
Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back.
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So she went back to Jamaica at
Speaker 1: a point, and then back to Panama, and along the
Speaker 1: way she continued to treat people and sell goods um
Speaker 1: but when she learned about Britain's involvement in the Crimean War,
Speaker 1: which took place from eighteen to eighteen fifty six, she
Speaker 1: decided to volunteer her services. So, as the story goes,
Speaker 1: she wanted to be among the pride and pomp of war.
Speaker 1: I think she said something like along those lines in
Speaker 1: her autobiography. But she wanted to volunteer her services and
Speaker 1: eight people and soldiers and officers and what way that
Speaker 1: she could during the war. But it's also been said
Speaker 1: that her motives were more to make money as a
Speaker 1: busy this woman, rather than to aid sick and injured soldiers.
Speaker 1: So she was what was called a sutler or a
Speaker 1: person who sold provisions to officers in the military. And
Speaker 1: so she would sell food and alcohol to officers, and that's,
Speaker 1: you know, also part of her story and has been
Speaker 1: debated her true motives for going over and joining the
Speaker 1: war effort. But as she recounted in her autobiography, she
Speaker 1: brought letters of reference from British officers in Kingston, and
Speaker 1: people kept turning her down along the way when she
Speaker 1: was asking to volunteer her services. Um there was Elizabeth Herbert,
Speaker 1: who was recruiting nurses on behalf of her husband who
Speaker 1: was the Secretary at war, who supposedly said that all
Speaker 1: the nursing positions have been filled. So she went to
Speaker 1: Turkey anyway, and apparently tried to join nurses but was
Speaker 1: again turned down. And so there are others stories or
Speaker 1: elements of the story in which she said that she
Speaker 1: was turned down from a position because they would say
Speaker 1: the position was filled, and the question was whether it
Speaker 1: was about her race or not. Um. But in her
Speaker 1: autobiography there is a part in there where she questions
Speaker 1: whether her skin color had something to do with why
Speaker 1: she kept being turned away and said, was it possible
Speaker 1: that American prejudices against color had some root here? Did
Speaker 1: these ladies shrink from accepting my aid because my blood
Speaker 1: float beneath a somewhat duskier skin than There's also the
Speaker 1: word dusky ear. That's the second time that I've said
Speaker 1: that in the coats from her, and it's definitely an
Speaker 1: interesting choice for darker dusk gear is definitely one of
Speaker 1: those old, those old things. But um, yeah, that's just
Speaker 1: an aside. So she she did decide to hit to
Speaker 1: Balaklava and the Cromea herself, um, and she intended to
Speaker 1: start the British Hotel. There was these cards or flyers
Speaker 1: about it, and she wanted it to serve as a
Speaker 1: mess table and comfortable quarters for sick and convalescent officers.
Speaker 1: So it's set that because she was funding it with
Speaker 1: her own money, she could only treat people who could
Speaker 1: pay her um. But it's also, you know, the conversation
Speaker 1: around that as well as that it was first and
Speaker 1: foremost a business that really operated as a restaurant in
Speaker 1: a store for officers who at the top had much
Speaker 1: more money than soldiers. It could actually pay for all
Speaker 1: the things that she was offering for purchase, so she did.
Speaker 1: She didn't provide supplies and food to officers and also
Speaker 1: spectators who came to see battles. Yeah, I guess wow,
Speaker 1: all right, you know before Netflix, Uh interesting, Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was the thing. And she's been described also as making
Speaker 1: tea for wounded soldiers and tending to their wounds, and
Speaker 1: she provided catering for events. So she talks about how
Speaker 1: during her work she ran into British military personnel whom
Speaker 1: she had already known from her time in Jamaica, and
Speaker 1: many people referred to her as mother sa Cole and
Speaker 1: viewed her favorably. So when the war ended, she went
Speaker 1: back to England with little money um and not in
Speaker 1: the greatest health. And she talks about how other people
Speaker 1: returned to England with more money, but she she wasn't
Speaker 1: set up that way, um, and she had to declare
Speaker 1: bankruptcy when she went back to England. And there are, um,
Speaker 1: there's information and the press um a little bit in
Speaker 1: articles about the bankruptcy proceedings um, which were possibly because
Speaker 1: of a venture with a business partner named Thomas Day
Speaker 1: then went bad. And this is just one of those things.
Speaker 1: It's not we're not going to be able to put
Speaker 1: everything in. But Thomas Day, um was one of her
Speaker 1: business partners, was a white man, and a bunch of
Speaker 1: rumors swirling around this Thomas Day guy, but um them
Speaker 1: getting to business ventures together that didn't go so hot,
Speaker 1: him potentially doing things that messed up their business ventures
Speaker 1: and messed up her money. Um, potentially having a daughter
Speaker 1: with her. These are all rumors that swirled around Thomas Day. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's a lot a lot of stuff like that
Speaker 1: in in her story. But there were creditors who were
Speaker 1: looking for Mary c. Cole for payment, and yeah, there
Speaker 1: are articles about her her going through bankruptcy. But there's
Speaker 1: also this whole super interesting element of fundraising that happened
Speaker 1: around Mary see coal because when work got out of
Speaker 1: her financial troubles, a fund was set up for her UM,
Speaker 1: though she apparently didn't get much money out of it.
Speaker 1: A bunch of fundraisers for her continue to pop up.
Speaker 1: But this included later in her life. UM. There was
Speaker 1: a benefit held in her honor that supposedly had tens
Speaker 1: of thousands of people show up and pay like a
Speaker 1: certain amount to get in. UM. So there are a
Speaker 1: bunch of these efforts that happened around raising money for
Speaker 1: Mary se Cole and kind of UM, people who are
Speaker 1: attesting to her reputation and other people who didn't want
Speaker 1: to donate money to her necessarily. UM. But that was
Speaker 1: a large part of her her later life, and she
Speaker 1: was able to make money from some of those fundraising efforts. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was reading about those and and UM, as you say,
Speaker 1: a lot of the information around this is sort of
Speaker 1: I don't know how true that is. But one of
Speaker 1: the things I was reading said there was like a
Speaker 1: four day fundraiser for her, Yeah, and like thousands attended
Speaker 1: and thousands of dollars was raised. Wow. Yeah, interesting, uh huh.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of UM praise that happens in her
Speaker 1: around other people who were speaking of her as saying
Speaker 1: she was, you know, the motherly sea coal figure. Um.
Speaker 1: She took care of me. I loved for her to
Speaker 1: be around, and that's been called into question as well.
Speaker 1: You know, there was a lot of that around surrounding her.
Speaker 1: And also on these fundraisers were pretty like they happened
Speaker 1: from time to time, happened occasionally, but this was around
Speaker 1: this time too, after she went back. When her autobiography
Speaker 1: was published, which was it was published in eighteen fifty seven, um,
Speaker 1: and it was dedicated to Major General Lord Rokeby, who
Speaker 1: was the commander of the First Vision and Crimea. It
Speaker 1: also contained an intro by Times correspondent William Howard Russell.
Speaker 1: He has one of those praising quotes, um. And we'll
Speaker 1: get to that later, um. But he's also supposedly wrote
Speaker 1: praising quotes about her as well. And in the book
Speaker 1: she details her travels and her experiences in the Crimean War.
Speaker 1: She talks a little bit about the first half of
Speaker 1: our life, um. But then she ends more time on
Speaker 1: her years in Panama, even more time on her life
Speaker 1: and Crimea, and in the end she talks about going
Speaker 1: back to England. So she did get some recognition and
Speaker 1: money from the autobiography and it got some good reviews. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's the quick and dirty version of all of
Speaker 1: the travels that Mary s Cole went through and the
Speaker 1: things that she said she did when it came to
Speaker 1: healing people. Um. She spent her later years in Jamaican
Speaker 1: and England UM and apparently aligned herself with a lot
Speaker 1: of people in the royal circle and upper circles. And
Speaker 1: you know, she even was able to get property through
Speaker 1: her fundraising efforts later in life. And she died in
Speaker 1: May of UM and she was buried in St Mary's
Speaker 1: Roman Catholic Cemetery in Cancel Green in London. So that's
Speaker 1: the short of her actual biography. But there then there's
Speaker 1: all the controversy around what happened the bringing back of
Speaker 1: her legacy arts talking about her legacy again, how she's
Speaker 1: kind of re emerged in these times, and her inclusion
Speaker 1: and curriculums. There are sources and bus that have been
Speaker 1: made of her showing that she got several medals of
Speaker 1: including the French Legion of Honor, but she herself never
Speaker 1: claimed that she want any, but there are a lot
Speaker 1: of sources who that say she got this medal and
Speaker 1: she got the Cromia Medal, and but that none of
Speaker 1: those have ever been attributed to her, and most likely
Speaker 1: she did not get those because you know, even the
Speaker 1: Crowmia metal required her to have served. So that's part
Speaker 1: of one of those things that there's been debate over
Speaker 1: and people are trying to correct the misinformation that's going
Speaker 1: around about her. UM. Since her autobiography was published, there
Speaker 1: have been more editions of it that were published as
Speaker 1: well with different introductions. So as you said Annie earlier,
Speaker 1: there are a lot more people who have raised her
Speaker 1: legacy to the forefront, and that has also brought up
Speaker 1: people who are questioning the use of bringing her legacy
Speaker 1: to the forefront again and what she actually did. And
Speaker 1: part of that is because of Florence Nightingale, who wound
Speaker 1: her way into Mary Seacole's story in some parts. So
Speaker 1: there are stories about how Nightingale didn't approve of the
Speaker 1: alcohol that she sold to soldiers or officers, um that
Speaker 1: she wasn't supposed to do that and it was improper,
Speaker 1: and her being turned down by nighting Gale because she
Speaker 1: was black. There have been other instances UM, specifically one
Speaker 1: where the BBC and a show or in a program
Speaker 1: called Horrible History is portrayed se Coal in a certain
Speaker 1: way and portrayed Nightingale in a way where it made
Speaker 1: her look racist. She pushed se Coal out of the
Speaker 1: way because and she was dressed as a nurse. There's
Speaker 1: a bunch of controversy over the portrayals of Nightingale in
Speaker 1: relation to see Coal that put Nightingale in an unfavorable
Speaker 1: light essentially, so there all the critics of Sea Cool
Speaker 1: and the supporters of Nightingale have said that Secol's role
Speaker 1: in the Crimean War has been really overhyped. So they
Speaker 1: have claimed that like her treatments weren't as effective as
Speaker 1: they've been portrayed. She didn't really actually save a bunch
Speaker 1: of lives, but that her care was comforting to people
Speaker 1: who were sick and or who were hurt. But her
Speaker 1: actual use and benefit or if you want to put
Speaker 1: in those terms of production, but you know, her actual
Speaker 1: what she did for people was hyped up to discredit
Speaker 1: Florence Nightingale, who doesn't look the best and see Cul's biographies,
Speaker 1: and it's been said that some of that misinformation has
Speaker 1: been circulated so that she can replace Nightingale. As quote
Speaker 1: the founder of modern profession of nursing, so she wasn't there.
Speaker 1: They also say that se Coel wasn't a nurse. Um
Speaker 1: though places like the BBC, as I was talking about
Speaker 1: earlier in that program Horrible History, has a portrayed her
Speaker 1: as such. Um. So some of those people even went
Speaker 1: to the BBC and said, hey, look, this portrayal of
Speaker 1: Sequel isn't correct, like you need to fix it. It
Speaker 1: makes Nightingale look bad. Um And the BBC fought that
Speaker 1: complaint for a while but said that ultimately said that
Speaker 1: the portrayal of Nightingale was inaccurate. But there have been
Speaker 1: people who have been very vocal about what they say
Speaker 1: is the myth making around se Coel. So specifically, there
Speaker 1: was a professor and a former MP in Canada. Her
Speaker 1: name was Lin McDonald um. So she's been super vocal
Speaker 1: about it um and she was involved and I think
Speaker 1: co founded the Nightingale Society. She has a bunch of
Speaker 1: videos on the issue, and she's one of the people
Speaker 1: who really puts forward the idea that yes, se Coal
Speaker 1: was really kind and generous, but she didn't save a
Speaker 1: bunch of lives. You know. She did things like Tanta
Speaker 1: Sports injuries. She said that she wasn't actually a battlefield
Speaker 1: nurse as some people make her seem, um and doesn't
Speaker 1: deserve to be treated as a pioneer in nursing. Um.
Speaker 1: So they kind of what they do is portray her
Speaker 1: as an opportunistic businesswoman, basically as a settler character instead
Speaker 1: of the nurse character who has when we're looking at
Speaker 1: if we're going to look at her legacy in terms
Speaker 1: of that kind of characterization, um, but who happened to
Speaker 1: be good at comforting military personnel who needed it, So
Speaker 1: she was They say, yes, she could have been this
Speaker 1: mother seacoel figure who did help treat people, but kind
Speaker 1: of downplay the importance and the actual impact of the
Speaker 1: work that she did. Um and say, well, you can't
Speaker 1: discredit Florence Nightingale's legacy and history two may see cool
Speaker 1: look better in any way. That's kind of the angle
Speaker 1: that that they come from. So, yeah, that's the whole,
Speaker 1: the whole part of the way that people look back
Speaker 1: at um Sea calls legacy. Yeah, I find that I
Speaker 1: find that fascinating. You've probably run into this more than
Speaker 1: I have eves, since you're more into like history world
Speaker 1: than I am. But Um, just how many times in
Speaker 1: history we've hitted female historical figures against each other instead
Speaker 1: of kind of just looking at the story and this story,
Speaker 1: what did this person do? What did this person do?
Speaker 1: Instead it's like, well, who is the mother of modern
Speaker 1: nursing or whatever it is, which you should definitely examine
Speaker 1: those relationships. But I just find it, um, sort of
Speaker 1: telling that that happens a lot with um women in history, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and hasn't stopped today. You know, that's still that thing
Speaker 1: that happens in for instance, like the rap industry, are
Speaker 1: different artistry industries where women are pitted against each other, um,
Speaker 1: and in this case, um, the whole. Yeah, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like a Florence Nightingale versus Mary C cold beef
Speaker 1: that we're we're putting on them from the future. Not
Speaker 1: that not necessarily happened while they were both alive, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the It's definitely something that there's a thread of
Speaker 1: when you're looking looking back at history and how women
Speaker 1: were pitted against each other. Yeah, And I do think
Speaker 1: like as we as we always say about first and like, um,
Speaker 1: how how many first were raised and all the stuff
Speaker 1: that happened to lead up to it first, and the
Speaker 1: erasure of um women of color and black women specifically
Speaker 1: when it comes to white women, Like, I think that's
Speaker 1: totally a conversation worth having always. It's just funny to
Speaker 1: me that it becomes like, you can't take this away
Speaker 1: from Florence starting go right, it doesn't have a bigger conversation,
Speaker 1: and that it not only does it talk about the
Speaker 1: erasure of what when another did, which is said like,
Speaker 1: why can't we just celebrate that both they did something
Speaker 1: and it approved and it was something to be credited for.
Speaker 1: But on top of that, like that conversation that we
Speaker 1: continue to have his book, why is there such limited
Speaker 1: space that we have to have an argument about who's
Speaker 1: worth talking about instead of actually just bringing in the
Speaker 1: holes like this is an amazing thing. Let's celebrate all
Speaker 1: of this and there's enough space for everyone. Why not? Right?
Speaker 1: I think that's a really great point you bring up, Samantha,
Speaker 1: just because in thinking about the arguments that people have
Speaker 1: against there are people these people are saying, you know, her, her,
Speaker 1: we should they shouldn't necessarily include her incurriculum is what
Speaker 1: I was trying to say earlier. When I'm gonna get
Speaker 1: the work right, but um that they shouldn't necessarily include
Speaker 1: her in curriculum. And there was this fight over whether
Speaker 1: she should be taken out of curriculum because of the
Speaker 1: way that the supposed misinformation that has been going around
Speaker 1: about her. But I think it's a great point because
Speaker 1: the points like, oh, well, she didn't necessarily save a
Speaker 1: bunch of lives. She just made people feel better. It's like,
Speaker 1: and there's nothing wrong with that. Both and can be okay,
Speaker 1: Both and are valuable. And it kind of devalues it
Speaker 1: makes the work that people do when it comes to healing,
Speaker 1: when it comes to treating people. Um, it devalues some
Speaker 1: work over the next um, and in this specific case,
Speaker 1: values the work of a white woman over um, a
Speaker 1: woman with black ancestry. UM. And I think that, um,
Speaker 1: it's just so many layers to the conversation around Mary c. Cole,
Speaker 1: because there's the element of race itself with and I
Speaker 1: didn't even get to the other side of people. So
Speaker 1: I'll get I'll get to that right now before I
Speaker 1: even dig deeper into that side, so I can explain
Speaker 1: that and make it clear because there was is another side.
Speaker 1: These people who I was mentioning earlier who are critics
Speaker 1: of the way that her legacy is being proposed. A
Speaker 1: lot of those people are protectors of Florence Nightingale's legacy,
Speaker 1: which should be said for sure, um. But there are
Speaker 1: the people on the other hand who have said that
Speaker 1: her history has been erased and overshadowed by Nightingales. Um.
Speaker 1: But then there are people who aren't even talking about Nightingale.
Speaker 1: They're just like, well, Secol's legacy deserves to be talked
Speaker 1: about right now, um. And there are people who do
Speaker 1: view her as a black woman and say that her
Speaker 1: accomplishments should be viewed in that light, and they reject
Speaker 1: the view that Nightingale supporters put forth, saying that that
Speaker 1: downplays and discredits people who used herbal remedies to help
Speaker 1: people and other traditional practices in healing, and that she
Speaker 1: did really have success in medicine and in minor surgery um.
Speaker 1: And that all the moves to remove her from curriculum
Speaker 1: and to strip away her blackness and claims that her
Speaker 1: accomplishments are exaggerated are just kind of strategies to remove
Speaker 1: her contributions from Britain and that historical record and discredit
Speaker 1: all the things that she actually did do. So you know,
Speaker 1: they're calling into question her critics are calling into question
Speaker 1: that anything she did ever was important, even if they say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: this happened, she definitely helped people. But does it really matter?
Speaker 1: Do we really need to talk about it? Um? And
Speaker 1: so there are the issues of well there's her race, UM,
Speaker 1: questions over percentages over her race, of that she was
Speaker 1: three quarters wide and only one quote unquote quadroon and
Speaker 1: that she really was very fair skinned um and did
Speaker 1: have privilege. And then there's the issue of her not
Speaker 1: calling herself black at all. And then there's the issue well,
Speaker 1: you know, we still need to recognize the things that
Speaker 1: she actually did when it came to treating people. Um.
Speaker 1: And even if it wasn't to the extent of saving
Speaker 1: thousands of lives, did she actually leave an impact on
Speaker 1: the people that were involved or that she treated. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's just so many layers to it, um,
Speaker 1: which makes her history just so complicated and as very
Speaker 1: tangible and real example of that, there is a statue
Speaker 1: of her at St. Thomas's Hospital in London, which is
Speaker 1: affiliated with Nightingale, which Nightingale's folks took as kind of
Speaker 1: a fight to them, they're like, why see Coel here?
Speaker 1: She didn't do anything. And on it there's a quote
Speaker 1: that's attributed to the Times correspondent who I spoke of earlier,
Speaker 1: William Howard Russell, and the quote was, I trust that
Speaker 1: England will not forget one who nursed her sick, who
Speaker 1: sought out her wounded to aid and sucker them, and
Speaker 1: who performed the last offices for some of her illustrious dead.
Speaker 1: So that's one of those praising quotes that comes from
Speaker 1: someone else and speaking about Sea coal Um and that's
Speaker 1: on the statue. And there was a whole debate over
Speaker 1: why that statue should be there, whether it should be there,
Speaker 1: and that Sea Couel shouldn't be honored in that way
Speaker 1: at the hospital because of Nightingale's legacy that's wrapped up
Speaker 1: in the hospital. That sounds like a narrowed version of
Speaker 1: all lives matter. I mean, I know that's good kind
Speaker 1: of a generalization, but just like why are you? It's
Speaker 1: not one against another. It's that we're focusing on something
Speaker 1: that was significant at a time, whatever it may be,
Speaker 1: and that we gave credit to that not a lot
Speaker 1: of people know about, and that should be celebrated, and
Speaker 1: it's worth celebrating. It's not like a slight to anyone
Speaker 1: else is not to slap you in the face, to
Speaker 1: be like ha ha, see, we're not about you. It's
Speaker 1: such a like weird like conversation, especially because maybe Sequel,
Speaker 1: maybe she wasn't as medically um knowledgeable as Nightingale. I
Speaker 1: don't know, but what I hear as a social order,
Speaker 1: I'm like, what we have discovered as of late, and
Speaker 1: I'm not know if they just stretching, is that if
Speaker 1: mental health is not taken care of, that physical health
Speaker 1: may not be taken care of either, as much medical
Speaker 1: procedures that can happen. And it sounds like Mary Seckel
Speaker 1: did kind of all of that, Like not only did
Speaker 1: she try to bring the medical aspect, but she also
Speaker 1: gave the mental health, loving nurturing aspect as well. That
Speaker 1: was a little bit more unheard of at that time
Speaker 1: of crisis, you know. And I'm like, why can't we
Speaker 1: credit her for that? Right? And oh I love that
Speaker 1: point because it's something that people wouldn't necessarily have had
Speaker 1: the language for at the time, Like she wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been saying mental health and clothes, but she would have
Speaker 1: been performing that. Here's a she says, I do not
Speaker 1: think that we hot blooded creoles sorrow less for showing
Speaker 1: it so impetuously. But I do think that the sharp
Speaker 1: edge of our grief wears down sooner than there's who
Speaker 1: preserve an outward demeanor of calmness and nurse their woes
Speaker 1: secretly in their hearts. And I'm like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: you're talking about black anger. You're talking about perceptions of
Speaker 1: black anger, and notwithstanding all of the are black women's
Speaker 1: anger specifically UM and pain and black women's pain and
Speaker 1: the way that we show it in the way that
Speaker 1: it's perceived and the way that it's treated. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I need to read that line like so many more times,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot that can be called into question
Speaker 1: in the way that she spoke about other people and
Speaker 1: looked at other people and viewed them as not part
Speaker 1: of the group that she was part of. UM. But
Speaker 1: I totally agree with what you're saying, Samantha, where it's like,
Speaker 1: in an explicit and not so explicit way, at the
Speaker 1: same time that people who are criticizing the work that
Speaker 1: she did do they're recognizing the fact that they that
Speaker 1: she did address mental health, and she did make people
Speaker 1: feel better, and she did help people, But saying that
Speaker 1: that's not worthy of our praise and our recognition. So
Speaker 1: I think that in a way devalues. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a lot that can be said about, you know, the
Speaker 1: criticism itself, but the fact that they acknowledge that she
Speaker 1: did work and devaluate at the same time, I think
Speaker 1: take some credibility away from anything that may actually be
Speaker 1: credible that they're calling into question. Agreed, Yeah, agreed as well.
Speaker 1: We concur We do have a little bit more for
Speaker 1: you listeners, but first we have one more group break
Speaker 1: for Worksimer sponsor and we're back. Thank I just think, um,
Speaker 1: we were talking about Lucy Parsons, but Mary Sequel just
Speaker 1: kind of brings up a lot of issues that are
Speaker 1: happening today and in different aspect and different time frame,
Speaker 1: and it's just weary some I guess, but at the
Speaker 1: same time like validating, like, yeah, this has been a thing,
Speaker 1: and this has been a conversation and it's just in
Speaker 1: a different narrative. And this is why it's so important
Speaker 1: that we do look at the history of what has
Speaker 1: happened and what is happening then what is happening now
Speaker 1: in that same level of her, whether practices in medicine,
Speaker 1: whether it's being acknowledged. And I read the information that
Speaker 1: she was talking about the fact that Americans were more
Speaker 1: racists towards her or prejudice towards her, and she noted
Speaker 1: that it was Americans, which is really sad um in
Speaker 1: every way because it seems like it really hasn't changed.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just too caught up in everything that's bad
Speaker 1: here us. Yeah, there was a part two, I think where,
Speaker 1: if I'm remembering correctly, I think were she said something
Speaker 1: along the lines of could it be that here in
Speaker 1: London when she was in London, they have the same
Speaker 1: prejudices that they have in America. Um, yeah, so yes.
Speaker 1: Uh it's funny because I mean there's obviously the conversation
Speaker 1: about racism that's explicit and racism that's veiled, and um,
Speaker 1: all of those conversations and uh um yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that goes deep because you know, she presented she was
Speaker 1: very fair skin, so she presented in one way and
Speaker 1: also says that she had experiences of being treated as
Speaker 1: a black woman. So yeah, there's a lot of Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very um complex and nuanced conversation happening around her
Speaker 1: and the and the book will say, from what I've read,
Speaker 1: is enjoyable and it didn't make me think a lot.
Speaker 1: And also if anyone, if I you're like on the
Speaker 1: fence about reading it, one of the chapter like subtitles
Speaker 1: is I am taken for a spy and they're at
Speaker 1: lose my temper, So come on, come on. It's a
Speaker 1: great title. Yeah, yea. And I feel like as a
Speaker 1: society we definitely like to We don't like complexity and
Speaker 1: nuance a lot of times. We just like the bite
Speaker 1: size headline thing. So I'm glad we're having this conversation now.
Speaker 1: I think it's really important. Agreed, Well, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: as always eaves such a pleasure, Always learned so much,
Speaker 1: Always loved seeing you and hearing you you too. Where
Speaker 1: can the good listeners find you? You can find me
Speaker 1: on social media. Um. You can also hear me on
Speaker 1: This Day in History Class, a podcast about history. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you can find me on social media. I'm
Speaker 1: at Eve's Jeff Cope. You can also look up This
Speaker 1: Day in History Classes socials. They're all T D I
Speaker 1: h C podcast And yeah, that's about it. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: definitely go check all those things out if you haven't already,
Speaker 1: And if you'd like to contact us you can. Our
Speaker 1: email is Stuff Media, mom Stuff that I Heart media
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You.
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, Thanks
Speaker 1: again to you, Eves, and thanks to everyone for listening
Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You The production of I Heart
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