Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and don't welcome to stuff.
Speaker 1: I never told your protection if I heart radio. So
Speaker 1: I have a very important question for you, Samantha. Oh no, yes,
Speaker 1: the most important question. Hey, here we go. Are you
Speaker 1: a shipper? Okay, so I don't. I didn't know what
Speaker 1: that was for the longest time, and I took that
Speaker 1: very literally and I was like, like ships like I
Speaker 1: like ships? I neither ship. I don't mean, don't you
Speaker 1: like ships? I know because I get very very like
Speaker 1: motion sick. So the idea of being on a ship
Speaker 1: is terrifying to me. And just because you know, all
Speaker 1: I think of is diseases like cruises, cruise ships and diseases,
Speaker 1: so and murders in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but that that I know what it actually is, which
Speaker 1: is meaning putting people together in relationships. Right, Okay. I
Speaker 1: had to ask again because I'm like, I'm not one
Speaker 1: of those cool kids. What does this mean? So no,
Speaker 1: very long answer no, because I had no idea what
Speaker 1: that was. Now do I like couples that are given
Speaker 1: to me? Like I know that? Yes, so don't make
Speaker 1: sense and fill force? But you know, but so are
Speaker 1: you like watching a show and there's two characters and
Speaker 1: you just want them to get together, or do you
Speaker 1: sort of just sort of go with it. I think
Speaker 1: typically I go with it now to be fair s vu.
Speaker 1: For the longest time, I did want Olivia and Stabler.
Speaker 1: Elliott and Olivia they should have gotten together, but they
Speaker 1: really shouldn't know because you can't work like that, and
Speaker 1: they know. But to me, Olivia was just so alone
Speaker 1: and her closest connection was him, so it only made
Speaker 1: sense to me. Mm hmm. Did you know anyone else
Speaker 1: that shared that viewpoint? Oh? So many people, which is why,
Speaker 1: even though you know it is a cop show, people
Speaker 1: are still excited that Elliott Stabler is coming back, he's
Speaker 1: having a he's getting his own show, and people cross,
Speaker 1: probably because it's definitely another law You know, Law in
Speaker 1: Order has like fifteen shows and this is one more
Speaker 1: of those. But yeah, it's gonna be a cover crossover.
Speaker 1: And anytime they do like cross social media people freak out.
Speaker 1: I am one of those people, It's true. One more
Speaker 1: follow up question, does this couple have a name, like
Speaker 1: a ship name? See? That never happened in my generation.
Speaker 1: I don't think really, that wasn't a thing. Who was
Speaker 1: the most famous couple that has I don't know. I
Speaker 1: always think of Brand Jelina. Oh yeah, yeah, there you go,
Speaker 1: Brand Angelina, so that is in my time frame. But
Speaker 1: I think that was just so dumb because I also
Speaker 1: was not team but Angelina. Okay, I was too, So
Speaker 1: that helps like that just has a negative connotation to me.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm. So obviously, since you're asking me these questions,
Speaker 1: you and I know that because of your fan fiction,
Speaker 1: you ship. You shipp pretty hard, don't you. I it's
Speaker 1: so funny to me, um, because, as I've said before,
Speaker 1: I am not a romantic person. Like I don't watch
Speaker 1: rom coms. It's not my thing. It's almost always my
Speaker 1: least favorite part of any entertainment because I'm just not
Speaker 1: into it. Um. But recently, I don't know why I
Speaker 1: have started shipping things, and I think I shipp things
Speaker 1: that I can tell it's never gonna happen. I don't know,
Speaker 1: because it feels almost like a safer thing. Are more
Speaker 1: fun to imagine? Is it more like a conspiracy theory
Speaker 1: type of Yeah, they're actually together, even though they're not
Speaker 1: going to say it out loud, but if you watch
Speaker 1: their actions, they're together. Well, I've had an in depth
Speaker 1: discussion recently with a lot of people about UM, particularly
Speaker 1: Star Wars, and sure, yeah, Luke and and Han and
Speaker 1: that I've started shipping that, and I have no idea why,
Speaker 1: UM and I. So today we're we're talking about queer baiting.
Speaker 1: And when I think about the difference to me and
Speaker 1: what queer baiting is and isn't, because there is a
Speaker 1: huge debate over it is intention and I I don't
Speaker 1: feel like the writers ever meant for anybody to interpret that.
Speaker 1: Han and Luke we're gonna be together, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. So it doesn't feel like a conspiracy so
Speaker 1: much is But he he rushed off into the blizzard
Speaker 1: on half to save him and body heat. It's true.
Speaker 1: It's true. It's true. It's true. We saw it. I've
Speaker 1: seen it several times now, so many now. Yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: you're the best, thank you. Yes. So we're talking about
Speaker 1: the contentious term of queer bating, which is something that
Speaker 1: has been on my mind for a while. UM and
Speaker 1: I have found myself falling into these relationships that get
Speaker 1: brought up in this conversation a lot. Dean and Cassile
Speaker 1: from Supernatural DESTI l is probably the one of the biggest,
Speaker 1: if not the biggest example given. Um oh yes, now,
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong. Before I even started watching it
Speaker 1: and now I have, it's one of my regulars now,
Speaker 1: my rotation. Um, you did tell me those you this
Speaker 1: was the first thing you told me. And and then
Speaker 1: when I was introduced Castile on the show, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: there he is, and You're like just wait, just wait.
Speaker 1: And then they even have an episode where they dedicate
Speaker 1: to the fact that that is a theory. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: fan fiction episode, right, yes, yes, um yeah, They're probably
Speaker 1: the biggest example. And it's one of those things where
Speaker 1: again I'm kind of oblivious almost when it comes to
Speaker 1: romantic singles that Samantha, you know this, I just miss
Speaker 1: a lot of context, a lot. But the fact that
Speaker 1: I picked up on Dusty l without the Internet, I
Speaker 1: think that is that says something. I was like, these
Speaker 1: two characters, something's going on here. This is a little
Speaker 1: I can see them getting together. Dean even says he
Speaker 1: loves him anyway. The signs are there, Samantha, The signs
Speaker 1: are there apparently, yes, yes, um, And then I I
Speaker 1: got really caught up in Finn and Poe for a
Speaker 1: hot man it from Star Wars, which is called Storm Pilot.
Speaker 1: That's the shipping name for that, and I really wanted
Speaker 1: them to end up together. Um, and I could go
Speaker 1: on such a deep dive and I kind of did
Speaker 1: in our two part fan fiction episodes on why this
Speaker 1: whole thing is where? Why are we so eager or
Speaker 1: at least some segment of us to put two male
Speaker 1: characters together. Um. I don't know if you know this, Samantha,
Speaker 1: because you not in the fan fiction world like I am,
Speaker 1: but slash it just makes up a huge, huge portion
Speaker 1: of fan fiction and it's mostly written by women, and
Speaker 1: it's two men together. What's slash? Oh? Is that what
Speaker 1: it's called? Yeah? Okay, because you you indicate with the slash,
Speaker 1: so it would be deem slash castil oh. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not how I okay. I'm glad you told me that,
Speaker 1: because I would have interpreted as a different thing, like
Speaker 1: they're the same person, one in the same but not
Speaker 1: necessarily relationship or is or mm hmm okay. Yeah. Well
Speaker 1: I'm happy to share my fan fiction knowledge at any point. So, um,
Speaker 1: I actually I feel like I could do a ten
Speaker 1: part series on this, and I want to talk about
Speaker 1: it so much, but if I do it in a
Speaker 1: kind of a nutshell, I think one of the main
Speaker 1: reasons is there are more male characters. They're traditionally more
Speaker 1: well developed, the male body is less politicized in the
Speaker 1: female body in a plethora of ways. Uh. And then
Speaker 1: the lack of platonic relationships, but particularly between men and
Speaker 1: women in our media, but also men and men, um,
Speaker 1: and so any type of closeness. I feel like we
Speaker 1: automatically interpret it as romantic because it usually is. But um,
Speaker 1: the truth remains that some companies and creators tease a
Speaker 1: queer relationship and never actually give it. And it's become
Speaker 1: a hot topic of debate. And uh, I've I've seen
Speaker 1: it in uh so so many things. And and oh, anyway,
Speaker 1: another piece of this, I I know I'm seeing things,
Speaker 1: like I said, where writers didn't intend it, like in
Speaker 1: Han and Luca is the best example, because I just
Speaker 1: feel like there's no way they thought all these women
Speaker 1: was latch onto that right. Um. And I know I
Speaker 1: brought up before, UM how my gay male gay friends
Speaker 1: have said that this makes them uncomfortable that they feel
Speaker 1: like they can't have platonic relationships with a man without
Speaker 1: it being misinterpreted by somebody. And I I would love
Speaker 1: to to hear from gay listeners with your thoughts and
Speaker 1: experiences about this. Um. I know, for me personally, when
Speaker 1: I hadn't really come out as VIBE, but I had
Speaker 1: been with men and women, there was sort of this
Speaker 1: assumed sluttiness that I must be attracted to everyone, right,
Speaker 1: and um it was really problematic and it made me
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable. And and I had more than one dude
Speaker 1: he would come up to me and say, well, you
Speaker 1: kissed her, so you must be down to kiss me. What. Um?
Speaker 1: So yes, please listeners right in your thoughts about that,
Speaker 1: your experiences with that. But okay, let's start with a definition. Essentially,
Speaker 1: queer baiting is what it sounds like. It's when creators
Speaker 1: and corporations lure lgbt Q plus audiences with the promise
Speaker 1: of a queer relationship and then that queer relationship never happens.
Speaker 1: Queer baiting is usually between two male characters. Again, that
Speaker 1: could be because most of our developed characters are male,
Speaker 1: but not always. Queer baiting is a way for our
Speaker 1: entertainment to appeal to the masses while also safely bringing
Speaker 1: in l g B t Q plus characters, so sort
Speaker 1: of like a like kind of backhanded way of trying
Speaker 1: to have your cake and eat it too, to not
Speaker 1: offend anybody. UM. Some see queer bating as a lack
Speaker 1: of representation leading to misinterpretation. Some see it as a
Speaker 1: calculated strategy, like these storylines are never going to pay off,
Speaker 1: They never intended for them to pay off. They see
Speaker 1: it as a way for companies to use queer people
Speaker 1: as almost pawns and profitability. It's a big tease the
Speaker 1: creators put in this subtext that is never going to
Speaker 1: amount to anything. UM Glad's report found that about six
Speaker 1: point four percent of television's main characters or l g
Speaker 1: B t Q plus, So that's not that many, and
Speaker 1: just I would I would ask take a moment to
Speaker 1: absorb how not only disappointing but painful that is it's
Speaker 1: toying with the community that doesn't frequently see themselves represented,
Speaker 1: and then almost ridiculing people in that community for thinking
Speaker 1: that that relationship could ever have been queer, that you
Speaker 1: could ever have interpreted it that way. It's almost gas lighting,
Speaker 1: like how how did you see this? Your silly fan,
Speaker 1: you're reading too much into it um. Some of these
Speaker 1: relationships are openly made fun of by creators, and the
Speaker 1: overall messages representation of these relationships is worth less than
Speaker 1: the risk of offending any homophobic audience member, right, And
Speaker 1: I would add that it seems like it fetishizes that
Speaker 1: in general, the LGBTQ population in general, which is harmful
Speaker 1: in every way. Let's just go in. But fetishizing anything
Speaker 1: is harmful. But it does through that, and that's you're
Speaker 1: they're using it as a way to make profit, which
Speaker 1: is gross. Yes, yes it is, but a very brief history.
Speaker 1: In the ninety nineties, companies started going after what was
Speaker 1: called the pink the dollar, or gay patronage. Some experts
Speaker 1: argue the merit of this idea. Either way, cur bating
Speaker 1: stem from the corporate desire to market to l g
Speaker 1: bt Q plus audiences while not once again deterring any
Speaker 1: homophobic viewers having their cake like you said, and eating
Speaker 1: it too. So I gotta have it all, want all
Speaker 1: the audience, so God have to say in that fun line.
Speaker 1: So queer bating has a long history, but it's in
Speaker 1: it's more modern sense. It goes back to quote gay
Speaker 1: window advertising in the nineteen eighties, or using subtle elements
Speaker 1: to draw in the l g B, d Q plus crowd.
Speaker 1: Some scholars also called this gay vague. There's also hoh
Speaker 1: yea or homooticism yea, which was first coined in two
Speaker 1: thousand one, which is more closely related to queer coating
Speaker 1: or reading. More on that in a second, But in
Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties it was used in the U. S.
Speaker 1: Courts to describe homophobic rhetoric. It's current meaning most likely
Speaker 1: originates on tumbler as early as the nineties. So another
Speaker 1: part of this is called situational homosexuality. Essentially, the absence
Speaker 1: of the characters of one gender means that people read
Speaker 1: a certain amount of same sex eroticism. However, many modern
Speaker 1: day researchers think the term is archaic, that it could
Speaker 1: apply to things like prisons, a temporary state, sort of
Speaker 1: like quote I experimented in college, right as if it's
Speaker 1: only it's just based on the city. It was just
Speaker 1: a stage. It was just a stage in my life. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there are a lot, a lot of aspects to
Speaker 1: unpack in all of that, and we will, but first
Speaker 1: we're gonna pause for a quick break for word from
Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So let's
Speaker 1: let's return again to Supernatural, which I do think it's
Speaker 1: probably the biggest example modern current example of this if
Speaker 1: we look at it specifically. Some have argued that when
Speaker 1: creators leaned into Destio, which is again these the team
Speaker 1: of main characters Dean and Castile, their ratings went up
Speaker 1: and the nature of that show, and that it is
Speaker 1: very self aware and very meta. There's like fan fiction
Speaker 1: about It's kind of confusing to explain, but I love
Speaker 1: seeing people's faces when I try to explain this. Basically,
Speaker 1: they're they're sort of semi famous in this world, in
Speaker 1: this fake world, and people write fan fiction about them.
Speaker 1: But it's a cult, and it seems like it's mainly
Speaker 1: like young Yes Oh, who she is the biggest fan
Speaker 1: of of Supernatural within the world which is like a
Speaker 1: series of books. Um she is like the most stereotypical
Speaker 1: fan fiction girl that they could have written. They did,
Speaker 1: um so because it is that way, because it is
Speaker 1: very self aware and very meta, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: room for creators to address these things, to directly address
Speaker 1: They're the fan culture, the fandom around Supernatural. Well, at
Speaker 1: the same time, sometimes mocking and dismissing them. The actors
Speaker 1: also play with at conventions and in bloopers, this Dean
Speaker 1: and Castile relationship, so they know about it and they
Speaker 1: leaned into it, but there's still kind of a mockery
Speaker 1: of it. I think it make fun of themselves in general.
Speaker 1: But yeah, they definitely, and especially the earlier episodes, the
Speaker 1: kind of homophobic yeah lines and and taglines. It's kind
Speaker 1: of it's sad. Yeah, yeah, and I I will fight anyone.
Speaker 1: I think Dean it is bisexual. I don't care what
Speaker 1: the creators say, but that's my opinion. I like that
Speaker 1: you get the one that is the most like as
Speaker 1: as he put sit in the show, because I just
Speaker 1: rewatched this episode where they are where the brothers are
Speaker 1: actually confused in being in the relationship and they're like,
Speaker 1: why do they think we're gay? Dean's like why do
Speaker 1: we why do they think we're gay? And uh, Sam,
Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm telling this. Sam's responses, Maybe you'r
Speaker 1: but you're overcompensating. Is that why you think that? Now?
Speaker 1: It's it's odd because if you if a show goes
Speaker 1: on long enough, it's just this show is like fifteen
Speaker 1: years old. There's gonna be inconsistencies with the character because
Speaker 1: he is presented is like this alpha male always with
Speaker 1: the ladies, um womanizer. Womanizer definitely uh and you know
Speaker 1: he like listens to hard rock and he's a classic
Speaker 1: rock and he's gotta classic classic rock. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I can't really put my finger on why I think
Speaker 1: it and get too hard into Supernatural and everybody's like,
Speaker 1: what the hell are y'all doing? This is not sman.
Speaker 1: Would you say Crowley and Dean were also a ship? Oh? Absolutely, yes,
Speaker 1: and it probably pretty much talks about being I think
Speaker 1: he's bisexual. He kind of lens into that anywhere there
Speaker 1: was a whole like triangle castile Crowley Dean. Yes, all right, okay,
Speaker 1: we've talked about Supernatural lot. Here's the probably the other
Speaker 1: biggest example UM is the BBC show Sherlock. I don't
Speaker 1: think you could read one article about queer bading and
Speaker 1: not come across this um. And it is shipping of
Speaker 1: the two main characters, John Watson and Sherlock Holmes, which
Speaker 1: is called John Walk which, by the way, again this
Speaker 1: is where I'm like, what, what's happening? What I don't
Speaker 1: understand what's happening because I loved that show. I love
Speaker 1: that show. That was one of the ones that I
Speaker 1: was always into. And like, I know, the conversation came
Speaker 1: up that Sherlock maybe gay or bisexual because he's never
Speaker 1: been with women, or been with anyone quote unquote it's
Speaker 1: specifically women. But I've never like, I know, there's that
Speaker 1: underlying joke because they're always together, so everybody assumes they're together, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, once again is kind of like, why
Speaker 1: can't they just be friends in the story. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and I didn't. I never saw that. It's one of
Speaker 1: those things where once you look at and and Samantha,
Speaker 1: believe me, you can find, you know, gifts, just pages
Speaker 1: of gifts, like see the proof. Um, once you see it,
Speaker 1: it's hard to unsee. They definitely stand really like way
Speaker 1: too close to each other a lot like face to face.
Speaker 1: And I know, I don't really remember it, it's been
Speaker 1: so long since I watched it, but I know there
Speaker 1: was like Moriarty is sometimes criticized as being painted his
Speaker 1: like the evil gay trope, kind of like a disturbed individual. Um,
Speaker 1: And I know there was something along with that that
Speaker 1: people often point to and and yeah, as you're saying,
Speaker 1: I do see the point that because of the lack
Speaker 1: of representation, Um, I don't. I mean this is also
Speaker 1: you could argue very true about our our society in
Speaker 1: the real world, where where men aren't allowed to have
Speaker 1: these emotional, deeply patonic relationships without them being read as romance. Um,
Speaker 1: the SAME's true for female characters. Again, I think I
Speaker 1: know I mentioned in a past episode if if if
Speaker 1: Luke had in fact been a woman, I'm telling you
Speaker 1: you would have been like it would have been meant
Speaker 1: to be interpreted that way. Um, people would read their
Speaker 1: relationship between John and Sherlock be as romantic if one
Speaker 1: of them was me on the other female, or at
Speaker 1: least a lot more people would. Again, it boils down
Speaker 1: to we don't have a lot of representation, and we
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of diversity of stories being told
Speaker 1: and relationships and complex nuanced relationships. And I think that's changing.
Speaker 1: But right now we're we're just so desperate for these stories,
Speaker 1: so we're finding them where we can, are writing them.
Speaker 1: And I will come back to the importance of fan
Speaker 1: fiction and all this in a minute. Um. And John
Speaker 1: Lack is a great example where there are all these
Speaker 1: in show jokes that they are a coupled that show
Speaker 1: acknowledging what fans want to using it, but then nothing happens. Um.
Speaker 1: There are even references to Shorelock moriarity fan fiction that
Speaker 1: are derided in the show. The creator Stephen Moffatt went
Speaker 1: out of his way to say an interview in terms
Speaker 1: of whether or not Shrlock was a sexual is the
Speaker 1: choice of a monk, not the choice of an a sexual.
Speaker 1: If he was a sexual, there would be no tension
Speaker 1: in that, no fun in that. It's someone who abstains
Speaker 1: who's interesting. Um. And he gets criticized a lot in
Speaker 1: this whole kind of his response to people wanting that
Speaker 1: are seeing it because I've read interviews where he's like, Wow,
Speaker 1: I can't believe anyone would read it that way, And
Speaker 1: then I've read somewhere it's clear that he knows and
Speaker 1: is sort of making fun of it. Yeah, and he
Speaker 1: just doesn't care. Right. So there are also other shows
Speaker 1: in entertainment that included shows like House Uh, The O,
Speaker 1: C Merlin, Riverdale, and Rosolian Isles and among so many others,
Speaker 1: Solo a Star Wars story too. By the way, UM,
Speaker 1: some classics. Yes, And I remember this because I remember
Speaker 1: it was so shocking to me in my very very
Speaker 1: very conservative household, because I watched the show Gabrielle and
Speaker 1: Zena from Zena Warrior Princess. I think that was the
Speaker 1: first like I was like, what's happening? This is not
Speaker 1: what um? And then of course we have the Madonna
Speaker 1: and Brittany kissing at the MTV Music Awards. I think
Speaker 1: that would be definitely one of the big queer baiting
Speaker 1: things because there's a lot of controversy of like what
Speaker 1: is this, why are you doing this? As well as
Speaker 1: people always forget that Christina Aguilero was there too and
Speaker 1: she kissed her, know if you knew that they were
Speaker 1: both on stage with her. Yes. Also Katie Perry's I
Speaker 1: Kissed a Girl and I liked it, which also has
Speaker 1: other connotations because she had been in this very religious
Speaker 1: lifestyle before she became well well known, which was always
Speaker 1: kind of like huh interesting. Yeah, from what I remember,
Speaker 1: which I feel like a lot of pop female singers
Speaker 1: came from that kind of genre anyway. And then Rita
Speaker 1: or a song Girls the New One, uh, because you
Speaker 1: know what sex cells and there was that huge debate
Speaker 1: about why they're doing all of this or why it's
Speaker 1: such a new fad. It seems um and the capitalization
Speaker 1: of pride. Companies are getting in on it, and as
Speaker 1: we see when you get sponsored, yeah, in a Pride parade,
Speaker 1: it's really kind of weird essentially doing the same thing,
Speaker 1: not actually committing to representation, but wanting queer patronage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean I've seen a lot of argument about
Speaker 1: this with like kind of the annoyance with companies that
Speaker 1: just are like, here's a rainbow colored cupcake, happy pride, right, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's debate at least that's happening in
Speaker 1: companies are appreciating the importance of it, but it feels
Speaker 1: so like superficial and shallow. What else are you doing?
Speaker 1: I mean that kind of goes hand in hand with
Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter movement and like people do the
Speaker 1: one black tile, Like wait, but your company is not
Speaker 1: showing that in your hiring processes and all of this,
Speaker 1: and it's the same way you're showing this pride flag.
Speaker 1: Do you have a presentation in your company? Have you
Speaker 1: had it? Do you actually acknowledge that that needs to
Speaker 1: be a part of your diversity. Hello, yes, yeah, um,
Speaker 1: and I guess speaking of singers, are Ariana Grande got
Speaker 1: accused of creer rating in her song Monopoly, which is
Speaker 1: a collaboration with Victoria monet Um when she's saying about
Speaker 1: liking men and women Taylor Swift video You need to
Speaker 1: Calm down, of course, caused a huge debate of out
Speaker 1: where was she before this? And it's sort of it
Speaker 1: just feels like capitalizing, and there's there's a certain degree
Speaker 1: to where people in entertainment they are trying to make money,
Speaker 1: they are trying to profit, but it can feel so
Speaker 1: gross and like but what else have you done? What
Speaker 1: else are you doing? Um? And some people it's we
Speaker 1: should say view the very existence of queer brading as progress,
Speaker 1: that queer brading, the term, wouldn't exist without at least
Speaker 1: some queer acceptance and examples in our media. There's also
Speaker 1: a debate about erasure versus labeling, like some some argue
Speaker 1: that it shouldn't be that you have to explicitly label oh,
Speaker 1: this is the gay couple, and then it becomes, at
Speaker 1: least unfortunately right now, it becomes their defining thing, like
Speaker 1: that is all about them and they're not really complex
Speaker 1: or nuanced other than that. So that's another piece of this, right,
Speaker 1: And I think when you see because Ariana Grande was
Speaker 1: uh in two debates, the Monopoly song and another one
Speaker 1: where the video uh where she's talking about getting together
Speaker 1: with a dude ends up in the end the video
Speaker 1: kissing a girl. Um, and that was I was staying
Speaker 1: more criticism on that because obviously that wasn't necessarily a
Speaker 1: part of the song. Right. And then you have Monopoly
Speaker 1: where she people felt like she actually came out as
Speaker 1: by or pants actual and people celebrated that. So it's
Speaker 1: really interesting to see the two levels of like, okay,
Speaker 1: who and what dictates if this should be celebrated or
Speaker 1: this should be condemned, right, and interesting conversation. It does
Speaker 1: come up in a lot of things we talked about
Speaker 1: where it's always important to remind yourself no community is
Speaker 1: a monolith and that there should there should be healthy debate,
Speaker 1: and that's good. I do think it's good that it's happening.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you can see it definitely and things like
Speaker 1: that with Ariana Grande. Right, Um, there's all so a
Speaker 1: difference between queer baiting and ship teasing. Ship teasing which
Speaker 1: I didn't know, and doulges now is different because at
Speaker 1: least one person in question is canonically queer. Also, there's
Speaker 1: a problem with only defining relationships the physical things, like
Speaker 1: sus I, it's queer baiting if the same sex couple
Speaker 1: doesn't have sex but are clearly together in other way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's caused a lot of debate too. Of right, well
Speaker 1: we never saw them have sex, but there there are
Speaker 1: other ways to be in relationships. More representation the through
Speaker 1: line through this whole episode. But that is problematic to
Speaker 1: you when you're saying, well, you're not in a relationship
Speaker 1: because you never had sex. Um. And And just to
Speaker 1: to clarify for people who are in as big big
Speaker 1: nerds as I am, Cannon is the accepted uh like
Speaker 1: not fan fiction. This is what happened, so they acknowledge, Oh,
Speaker 1: this character is gay. It's Cannon instead of me being
Speaker 1: like but Dean and he's bisexual and it's just me
Speaker 1: and a lot of other people but not creators. Um
Speaker 1: oh uh. So queer coding is also a different thing,
Speaker 1: And this I didn't know about until we did this episode.
Speaker 1: Mary Kate McAlpine over at Medium It wrote about hot
Speaker 1: Fuzz in particular, and I got to watch it for
Speaker 1: the first time. It was some of the best research
Speaker 1: I've ever had. Um. And so this is the Simon
Speaker 1: peg Nick Frost film, which was a two thousand and
Speaker 1: seven action comedy that was the second in the so
Speaker 1: called Cornetto trilogy. In the editing of the script, they
Speaker 1: got rid of uh the love interest at the female
Speaker 1: love interest and made the conscious decision to leave in
Speaker 1: those scenes with the overlying romantic interest between the two
Speaker 1: male characters. Um or at least it can definitely be
Speaker 1: read that way. And and one of the creators, they've
Speaker 1: acknowledged it, celebrated it. Um they're all for you shipping
Speaker 1: it uh anything. Never. One thing that makes this example
Speaker 1: in particular different is they never make fun of There's
Speaker 1: never to the moment of like are YouTube king or
Speaker 1: something like. It's not it's just not mentioned. Um. So
Speaker 1: that is queer coding. This to say, queer baiting sometimes
Speaker 1: gets level that fandoms where the relationships don't go the
Speaker 1: way fans want, which I feel like happens a lot,
Speaker 1: especially towards the end of a series. Um. There's some
Speaker 1: contention around whether we can assume what the creators intended
Speaker 1: and what we wanted, and that was worse than when
Speaker 1: creators and actors played into the trope and people saw
Speaker 1: an evil plant. I had to do that way. Sorry.
Speaker 1: M Ships can be a very risky business. The question becomes,
Speaker 1: are we we are baiting ourselves? Are we so desperate
Speaker 1: for representation or we're seeing it where it isn't And
Speaker 1: are we dismissing cannon couples because we want to ship
Speaker 1: another couple so badly and we'll see no evidence otherwise.
Speaker 1: Any do you se I think I'm a very flexible
Speaker 1: I could admit I don't know. I'm not very possessive
Speaker 1: or controlling, which I think it's the way to be
Speaker 1: of entertainment. And I'll be like, you know what, I
Speaker 1: can recognize it was never meant to go this way,
Speaker 1: but it's fun to think about. And by the way,
Speaker 1: some called this slash goggles. Yes, so fandoms can be
Speaker 1: they can be very um protective of stuff that they
Speaker 1: care about, and um there can be a level of
Speaker 1: like infighting and gatekeeping and entitlements and uh, I know
Speaker 1: for some people you're thinking what because I feel you
Speaker 1: probably won't encounter this unless you do go online and
Speaker 1: look up fan fiction or forms or whatever. But believe me,
Speaker 1: it's there and people will like. One of the most
Speaker 1: prominent examples to me is um, people at least in
Speaker 1: the fan fiction world really don't like Jenny Weasley and
Speaker 1: they'll think you're stupid for even thinking they should be
Speaker 1: a couple because they so badly wanted things to go
Speaker 1: a different way. And that's different from queer baiting, and
Speaker 1: and so some people are believe we use queer bating
Speaker 1: way too much for we really just wanted things to
Speaker 1: go a different way and they didn't. I mean, people
Speaker 1: had a hard time. They really wanted uh Harry and
Speaker 1: her money to be together. They did. My mom wanted
Speaker 1: that too, and that was one of the cutest things
Speaker 1: because she's also not like a super she doesn't ship
Speaker 1: or I was just surprised when she said that. She's
Speaker 1: like I thought they should have ended up together. Well,
Speaker 1: they kind of changed the relationship between Nevil Lombottom and
Speaker 1: Luna love Good from the books to the movies because
Speaker 1: in the books they don't ever get together, but in
Speaker 1: the movie they do. Yeah, I think they do get together,
Speaker 1: but it's like not, Yeah, it's not in the books.
Speaker 1: Like you would have to read something else, so you
Speaker 1: would hope that it would be that, but they actually
Speaker 1: made it happen. Yeah, books, and I feel like that's
Speaker 1: definitely something that was a fan how more than it
Speaker 1: was actually written. Oh well, that's an interesting point too,
Speaker 1: of like fan service and uh, I mean Star Wars
Speaker 1: comes up and so much of this because it is
Speaker 1: as huge as we talked about, this huge franchise, right
Speaker 1: and so like there was a debate around the same
Speaker 1: sex kiss at the end of the Newest One, and
Speaker 1: some people were like, well celebrating it. Other people were like,
Speaker 1: that is so white. We don't even know who those
Speaker 1: characters are. Like, um, so there is that aspect of
Speaker 1: it too. Ah. There's a lot to unpack here, so
Speaker 1: many things. But before we can do that, we have
Speaker 1: to take one more break for a word from our
Speaker 1: sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Uh and just
Speaker 1: some concluding thoughts. One as promised, I wanted to touch
Speaker 1: on fan fiction for a second. I would have talked
Speaker 1: about fan fiction if I had another podcast, it would
Speaker 1: be just fan fiction. Um. I have talked about how
Speaker 1: powerful it is, and most people who write fan fiction
Speaker 1: are women, are young girls, queer um from marginalized communities
Speaker 1: because they we were seeing this space where we weren't
Speaker 1: being represented, so we went and made it. And it
Speaker 1: gets mocked and derided and ridiculed, but I think it's
Speaker 1: this beautiful creative space. And so if you're if you're
Speaker 1: shipping someone and it's not working out for you, there's
Speaker 1: fan fiction for it, I guarantee you, and you can
Speaker 1: always write write the fan fiction. Now, of course, this
Speaker 1: isn't the same thing as seeing a presentation explicit representation
Speaker 1: in the entertainment we consume um in movies and television
Speaker 1: and books. But I just I feel like it's really
Speaker 1: telling that we make fun of fan fiction and particularly
Speaker 1: young women writing it, as if they're silly, and I
Speaker 1: mean the fearmongering around it, you wouldn't believe it, so
Speaker 1: that like there's like a panic around young girls writing
Speaker 1: fan fiction and what does it mean in sexuality? And
Speaker 1: oh my god? And um, I think that's very telling. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, we know Twilight began as fan fiction. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's a Harry Potter fan fiction, um, as well as
Speaker 1: it wasn't fifty Shades of Gray fan fiction. Yes. The
Speaker 1: most hilarious thing about this to me is so Twilight
Speaker 1: was a Harry Potter fan fiction and then Fifty Shades
Speaker 1: of Grays a Twilight fan fiction, and there was in
Speaker 1: fighting between them, at least I seemed recall where one
Speaker 1: of them was like, you can't do that. It's like,
Speaker 1: that's what you did. And each has its own success
Speaker 1: and also some they made a lot of money and
Speaker 1: they made careers and you do you At the same time,
Speaker 1: there's this whole underlying idea of fear of sex and
Speaker 1: fear of sexuality and it's both of those days but whatever,
Speaker 1: what not, um, and you're right kind of one up
Speaker 1: to each other. It felt like, yeah, it's funny. I
Speaker 1: have read so much fan fiction. There's sort of more
Speaker 1: about certain fan fictions, like there's fan fiction about this
Speaker 1: fan fiction and I knew that one that got turned
Speaker 1: into Twilight. I never read it, but I remember seeing it.
Speaker 1: Everyone kind of knew about it. And then there's a
Speaker 1: whole like supernatural fan fiction universe for people have taken
Speaker 1: characters created in that universe and written about them. Um,
Speaker 1: so well that was all Becky, like she made a
Speaker 1: career of being a fan fiction writer. Yeah, and that's
Speaker 1: actually easier to do than you might think. These days,
Speaker 1: the copyright part can get interesting. Um. And I would
Speaker 1: also say because some people have been like, well, write
Speaker 1: your own thing, Like, don't take someone else's idea. It's
Speaker 1: a hobby. It's not like, you know, if you like
Speaker 1: to play soccer, I'm not going to tell you we'll
Speaker 1: go professional then like you're wasting your time. Um, It's
Speaker 1: just it's a hobby. Inspiration comes from different things, and
Speaker 1: why wouldn't it come from something that you love. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful transformed space where fans get to kind
Speaker 1: of play in the same sandbox. And it's nice because
Speaker 1: you all start from that shared love of this thing,
Speaker 1: and you don't have to explain the world. It's already
Speaker 1: there and you could just go on. Um, although apparently
Speaker 1: you don't have control of your world. No. The ending
Speaker 1: is so tragic wa my fan fiction. You you all,
Speaker 1: I've gotten to the end while I haven't written it,
Speaker 1: but I know it ends, and it is the saddest
Speaker 1: thing I've ever Wow, brutal Han and Luke will never
Speaker 1: be happy together never um. Which was kind of a
Speaker 1: segue into that. My next point is I do think
Speaker 1: it's it's worth remembering that there's other loves than romantic love,
Speaker 1: and I would love for us to see that more
Speaker 1: in our media. Right For me, growing up not having
Speaker 1: tons of boyfriends and relationships, I most loved and treasured
Speaker 1: all of the books and or movies that were about
Speaker 1: my friends. And of course it's not as accepted with
Speaker 1: men unless you're being misogynistic together and being dumb. It
Speaker 1: seems again that's a stereotype, but that's what the big
Speaker 1: movie hits are if you look at like Hangover and
Speaker 1: all of those movies. But for me, like I related
Speaker 1: the most. I think my all time favorite book growing
Speaker 1: up was just as Long as We're Together. So it
Speaker 1: was a book written by Judy Bloom, which I loved
Speaker 1: because it was about three girls coming of age, and
Speaker 1: of course I also loved it because it was there
Speaker 1: was an Asian adopted child into this book and I
Speaker 1: felt very, very very represented for the first time ever,
Speaker 1: um And it was one of my favorite things. And
Speaker 1: I loved that idea of friendship. And I think that's
Speaker 1: why I loved the shows like Sex in the City.
Speaker 1: I really really clung to Now there's so many problematic
Speaker 1: things in that show, but really clung to those friendships
Speaker 1: and just the relationships that they had with each other
Speaker 1: and knowing that they would be together, Like that was
Speaker 1: the types of things that I loved because that's what
Speaker 1: I related with most. Yeah, and it's unfortunate to see
Speaker 1: that every time you see any relationship it has to
Speaker 1: be romantic, no matter what. That somehow is being ruined
Speaker 1: by romance. Rutte ruins everything. I'm just saying, yeah, and
Speaker 1: I uh, the we just need to see more and
Speaker 1: we need to see more platonic relationships and love, and
Speaker 1: we need to see relationshs just between queer people, groups
Speaker 1: of queer people, and then queer people and straight people.
Speaker 1: There's a lot there's a lot of things at play here. Um.
Speaker 1: And one other thing I read in a lot of
Speaker 1: articles is it's really difficult to know what a creator intended,
Speaker 1: and so it's really hard and less the creator flat
Speaker 1: out says, oh, I never meant for this. Can it's
Speaker 1: hard to say what they originally met. And there's also
Speaker 1: the aspect of that that who gets to own like
Speaker 1: if if if I want to see de c l
Speaker 1: like is that that microactive? Um? And it's that explicit
Speaker 1: representation is very very important, but that comes up a lot,
Speaker 1: and whether or not queer baiting is as big a
Speaker 1: thing um on the argument around, like some people think
Speaker 1: it doesn't exist at all. Um. I think where I've
Speaker 1: landed is it is this sort of like taunting of
Speaker 1: I don't know if tauntings right word, but of companies
Speaker 1: knowing what they're doing but never intending to have that payoff.
Speaker 1: So I remember when Solo, a Star Wars story came out.
Speaker 1: In the trailer, there was just like some shot that
Speaker 1: made you think, oh, Lando and Han are going to
Speaker 1: get together, And then you see the movie and you're like, no,
Speaker 1: there's nothing they're really other than Lando who have sex
Speaker 1: with anybody, um or anything right Millennium Falcon uh So
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, right, I feel like at least
Speaker 1: somebody made a calculated decision to include that and sort
Speaker 1: of get points for being more progressive and then had
Speaker 1: no intention of ever actually doing it right. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't until recently that we see healthy relationships instead of
Speaker 1: the in the trope of a gay man obviously going
Speaker 1: after every heterosexual man and making this whole like predatory line,
Speaker 1: and you know, instead of seeing actual healthy relationship once again,
Speaker 1: where you know, you see just friendship and it's uh,
Speaker 1: it's about time that we see that level and yeah,
Speaker 1: coming out as hey, yes, these two are together. Yes,
Speaker 1: these two discovered that they actually are in love even
Speaker 1: though they didn't know it at the beginning. Why can't
Speaker 1: that happen instead of it being all hidden and cloak
Speaker 1: and dager type of situation? Right? And I think I
Speaker 1: would go at least in my opinion, when I think
Speaker 1: of creerbating, there is a level of mocking to it too, like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you're just reading too much into this, right, and then
Speaker 1: that could goes straight into you just putting a gay
Speaker 1: person in there, So he's going to be the gay sidekick.
Speaker 1: We're gonna a person of color in there. That's a
Speaker 1: person of color. That's just a sidekick. She's just a byline,
Speaker 1: um and all. Basically it's a secondary whatever. So if
Speaker 1: there's a guy, you know, I love the stories where
Speaker 1: there's two guys and the guy who's the cast off
Speaker 1: goes with a lesser friend. I don't love it. I'm
Speaker 1: being sarcastic, but you know what I mean that that's
Speaker 1: kind of that whole level and it's kind of like, uh,
Speaker 1: that was unnecessary and it's not it's not necessarily what
Speaker 1: you want to see as a representation, and what what's
Speaker 1: the point of this? Right? And and I know we
Speaker 1: recently released the classic about the barrier gaze trope and
Speaker 1: a lot of that is intertwined in this whole conversation
Speaker 1: of well, here's a gay relationship, but it never ends happy,
Speaker 1: happily one of them dies and it's usually not as
Speaker 1: developed at all. I know that one hundred the Alexa
Speaker 1: pledge that comes up in in that conversation all the time.
Speaker 1: So that's also related to this of we'll give you
Speaker 1: this queer relationship, but only for a short time. It's
Speaker 1: not gonna happily right enjoy Yeah, yeah, be grateful. Uh yeah.
Speaker 1: So clearly a lot to say around this, a lot
Speaker 1: of debate happening, which I think is good. I'm glad
Speaker 1: we're having those conversations and we need to keep having them.
Speaker 1: Um And we would love for you listeners to share
Speaker 1: your thoughts about any of this. Also, I would love
Speaker 1: any I'm somebody who, even though I don't ship things,
Speaker 1: I like to find the most kind of out of
Speaker 1: I would never pictured this couple together. I like, I
Speaker 1: like finding that kind of stuff. So if you getta
Speaker 1: have any interesting ships you want to tell us about,
Speaker 1: Please let us know. You can email us at Stuff Media,
Speaker 1: mom Stuff at I heart media dot com. You can
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram at stuff I Ever Told You,
Speaker 1: are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
Speaker 1: to a super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks to
Speaker 1: you for listening Stuff I Never Told You the protection
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio is Bee I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows