Announcer: From CurtCo Media. ( Singing).
Bill Curtis: Welcome to a special edition of Politics: Meet Me in
Bill Curtis: the Middle. I'm Bill Curtis. Joining me for today's discussion,
Bill Curtis: Dr. David Campt is referred to as The Race Doctor.
Bill Curtis: He is a highly regarded national expert in the areas
Bill Curtis: of inclusion, equity, cultural competence, and intergroup dialogue. David earned
Bill Curtis: his bachelor's from Princeton, his public policy master's from Berkeley,
Bill Curtis: and his doctorate from U. S. Berkeley's Urban Planning Department.
Bill Curtis: David's the author of a number of books, including the
Bill Curtis: Little Book of Dialogue for Difficult Subjects. Well, that's a
Bill Curtis: good descriptor for today's discussion. David, we're honored that you
Bill Curtis: could join us today.
David Campt: It's great to be here. Thank you so much.
Bill Curtis: Ron Simons, a four- time Tony award- winning producer. Making
Bill Curtis: him the highest African- American Tony award- winning producer of
Bill Curtis: all time so far. Also, Ron is the leading Broadway
Bill Curtis: producer working today to bring diversity to the Broadway stage.
Bill Curtis: As CEO of SimonSays Entertainment, Ron leads the strategic planning
Bill Curtis: and development of theater, television, and film projects. He's also
Bill Curtis: an accomplished actor with many dozens of credits on the
Bill Curtis: big screen, the small screen, and stage. He brings a
Bill Curtis: well thought out perspective on Black Lives Matter. Ron, thanks
Bill Curtis: so much for joining us today.
Ron Simons: Thanks for having me. Great to be here.
Bill Curtis: Where some of this is new for some of us,
Bill Curtis: you guys have been fighting this battle for many decades.
Bill Curtis: I wonder if you'd be willing to give us each
Bill Curtis: three or four words that would come to mind that
Bill Curtis: best describe your thoughts and emotions during the last few weeks?
David Campt: So I would say disgusted, horrified, and hopeful. Disgusted by
David Campt: basically a public execution by somebody who knew who he was
David Campt: being filmed and figured it'd be fine. Horrified by the
David Campt: largely white violent protestors making the protest, giving us a
David Campt: whole other view of what those protests are. Although, we
David Campt: could talk about how they did us a favor by
David Campt: having those anarchists and the people doing that. Then hopeful, looking at like the
David Campt: diversity of people out there protesting. That's a new thing.
David Campt: So I'll say disgusted, horrified, and hopeful.
Ron Simons: I would agree that I was hopeful as well. I
Ron Simons: had not seen in my lifetime such large numbers of
Ron Simons: white people who cared enough about racism to actually go
Ron Simons: out and protest against it. My experience with racism is
Ron Simons: that horrific things happen and then a lot of people
Ron Simons: talk about how bad it is, and then a few
Ron Simons: days, weeks, months later, we're onto the next subject, and
Ron Simons: racism is no longer the topic of the day. The
Ron Simons: other two things were unsurprised, because when I saw George
Ron Simons: Floyd killed on camera, it's not the first time we've
Ron Simons: seen a black man killed on camera. We've seen them
Ron Simons: choked before. We've seen them shot in the back as
Ron Simons: they were running away. This is my experience. So in
Ron Simons: some ways, I was horrified at the fact that a
Ron Simons: white man felt so comfortable in his privilege and power
Ron Simons: that he said that he could kill a man on
Ron Simons: camera and either not had any ramifications or could not
Ron Simons: care about the ramifications because the most important thing at
Ron Simons: the moment was killing this black man.
Bill Curtis: Ron, when you just answered the question, you said I
Bill Curtis: was hopeful. Does that mean that today you're not as hopeful?
Ron Simons: No, no, no. It may mean that next month I'm not
Ron Simons: as hopeful. Because when something is disrupted and people are
Ron Simons: talking en masse about some disparity in justice, the Me
Ron Simons: Too movement, for example, for a while there the Me
Ron Simons: Too movement was center stage. People were being called on
Ron Simons: their shit. There were people out there protesting. There was
Ron Simons: marching. It was like, wow, really systemic change is going
Ron Simons: to happen it seems. But in point of fact, it
Ron Simons: didn't. The only reason all of this stuff is happening
Ron Simons: is because COVID- 19 happened to be. Because it gave people
Ron Simons: time to say, you know what, I'm now, A, frustrated, B,
Ron Simons: home, C, don't have as many things to do, and,
Ron Simons: D, I'm emotionally open to things where I had to
Ron Simons: have my head down in other times. There was a
Ron Simons: perfect storm that happened. Why I'm hopeful now is that
Ron Simons: I'm hopeful that the window won't pass.
David Campt: We hope that people look at this moment as an
David Campt: opportunity to really move forward. But if we look at
David Campt: the historical arc of history, we have seen that before.
David Campt: So I think that that's a critical thing. I do think we're in
David Campt: a new moment. So while certainly this thing that happened
David Campt: with George Floyd was a galvanizing influence, but I also
David Campt: wonder whether or not there's been something brewing for a
David Campt: while. The George Floyd murder was the most egregious of
David Campt: all of these things that we have seen, right, because of the reasons you said, Ronald. He's looking at the camera.
David Campt: As (inaudible) said, this is the first time you
David Campt: get to see the face of the murderer and the
David Campt: murder all at the same time. All the other ones is
David Campt: grainy, it's from a distance. We're looking at both of their faces at the same
David Campt: time and my man didn't care at all. He knew
David Campt: he was being filmed, it don't matter, right? He figured he
David Campt: was going to get away with it. That brought this whole thing
David Campt: to a level of egregiousness and it aggravated the whole world.
Ron Simons: I have heard about egregious, racist, deadly force used against
Ron Simons: black people my entire life.
Bill Curtis: So it's not at all new for you. It's just
Bill Curtis: that I'm waking up to it.
Ron Simons: It's not new to me. Even when I got to
Ron Simons: college and people would say things to me like, wow,
Ron Simons: you must be really thankful for Affirmative Action because you
Ron Simons: got in here. Right? Or they would say, oh, I
Ron Simons: didn't get into such and such a school because they
Ron Simons: had these racial quotas. Or the one that I loved
Ron Simons: and probably heard the most is, you know, Ron? You
Ron Simons: are so articulate. I'm like, I'm in a freaking Ivy
Ron Simons: League school. Of course, I'm articulate. Would you say that
Ron Simons: to some white friend of yours that you just met?
Ron Simons: Oh, hi, Ted. I really loved your presentation. You are so articulate.
David Campt: A whole other level of this is you've got people saying
David Campt: Affirmative Action played no role in their course, and of course
David Campt: it did. So my SAT scores were such that had
David Campt: I been a white person, I had a 50% chance
David Campt: to get into Princeton. Not bad. As a black person
David Campt: at the time, I had a 90% chance. Why? Because
David Campt: we have whole structural inequities in the educational system that
David Campt: have gone on for years and years and years, as
David Campt: well as biased tests, that produced that result. So part
David Campt: of the difficulty dilemma I faced when faced with that question of affirmative
David Campt: action is on the one hand I'm just as deserving
David Campt: as you, homie, because if I was white I'd have a 50% chance
David Campt: getting in just like you probably did. On the other hand, affirmative action did
David Campt: play a role. So how honest do we want to
David Campt: get given that a whole bunch of people are asking these
David Campt: kinds of questions not necessarily from a good heart? They're
David Campt: trying to trip you up. They're trying to make a point to themselves
David Campt: about how you don't really deserve to be here. They're
David Campt: trying to prove that to themselves and prove that to you. So we
David Campt: have to make a decision about how honest of a conversation
David Campt: do we really want to have. My work has been
David Campt: about how do you create the conditions so people can
David Campt: have an actual, honest conversation. I tell people at my work
David Campt: that trying to get white people to talk is all about trying to
David Campt: make Thanksgiving great again. Because a whole bunch of y'all,
David Campt: every holiday y'all falling apart. You don't want to avoid
David Campt: all these conversations, you want to be able to have these conversations, but people need
David Campt: tools to do that. That's what I'm trying to provide.
Bill Curtis: Tell us a little about how do we be a
Bill Curtis: good ally? How do we check ourselves along the path?
Bill Curtis: Because I want to learn. I want to be better.
Ron Simons: The first step, this is the way people, when you walk
Ron Simons: into the room, notice that there are no people of
Ron Simons: color in that room. Recognize that is a problem and
Ron Simons: something must be done. In Broadway, I've seen this. There's
Ron Simons: a league that I belong to, and there were 250 people in the room, and there were two black
Ron Simons: people in the room. I was astounded. At the coffee
Ron Simons: break, I said, did you just notice anything unusual about
Ron Simons: the people in that room? No, not really. Someone else,
Ron Simons: same thing. Then afterwards, one came to me and said, " Oh my God,
Ron Simons: I didn't realize that there are no people of color."
Ron Simons: I said, yes. So we, as black people, because we
Ron Simons: live in some level of trauma all the time, are
Ron Simons: acutely aware when we walk into a room and we're
Ron Simons: the only black person in that room.
David Campt: To build on what Ron said, I would invite people
David Campt: not just to notice what happened, but to talk about
David Campt: it. Right? So the part of what you do in
David Campt: the setting is to say, you know, I noticed that,
David Campt: oh, this country is about a third of color, this
David Campt: room isn't. Did you notice that? How do we feel
David Campt: about that? But even that is a big step forward.
David Campt: So I don't want to take these other big tasks
David Campt: off the table, but one thing every white person can
David Campt: do is to start initiating conversations about racial issues with
David Campt: other white people, not pushed by black people to do that.
Ron Simons: Hear hear.
David Campt: People can do something immediate all the time, which is
David Campt: how do I affectively non- judgmentally bring up racial issues
David Campt: with other white people to make it a subject of conversation?
Bill Curtis: How would someone like me bring up racial issues with
Bill Curtis: someone that I don't think is necessarily on side yet,
Bill Curtis: someone who still believes racial issues against white people are
Bill Curtis: just as powerful as those against black people?
David Campt: Here's what every white person needs to have. They need
David Campt: to have a racial progress story. They need to have
David Campt: a story about the progress that they have seen over
David Campt: the course of their lives. Now, the easiest one that
David Campt: we can all tap into is like what we just
David Campt: saw with all these white people protesting. It's useful to
David Campt: have some little stories, something you can convey in terms
David Campt: of a story that is a sign that racial progress
David Campt: has happened. It's how the kids were in the cafeteria
David Campt: when you were growing up, your kids are the same
David Campt: high school now, and it's different.
Bill Curtis: Why is that a wrench in my toolkit?
David Campt: Because if you're trying to invite somebody to a new understanding,
David Campt: you've got to agree with them first. There's two principles
David Campt: behind effective persuasion. One of them is that stories work
David Campt: better than facts. The second one is ABC, agreed before
David Campt: challenging. In your bag, you have some other story that
David Campt: embodies that you believe that we've made progress. Then your
David Campt: other thing is your personal unconscious bias story, and you
David Campt: frame it as racially biased. Now, why do you do that? Because
David Campt: you know the best evidence that racism still exists is
David Campt: because you can tell about racism in your own head.
David Campt: It is useful to have a story of racial progress
David Campt: which will make somebody relax and feel agreed with before
David Campt: you tell them some story that is about like racism
David Campt: still exists and I know because I see the racism in
David Campt: my own head. Am I answering your question?
Bill Curtis: I'm with you, and I'm taking notes. So I feel like I'm in school.
Bill Curtis: One other thing. Go back to a June 16th edition
Bill Curtis: of the LA Times, I believe. Or maybe the 15th.
Bill Curtis: There's a two page spread that was taken out by
Bill Curtis: Byron Allen, and listen to what he has to say.
Bill Curtis: It is really impressive. I want to send it to
Bill Curtis: you guys because I think that he is incredibly articulate.
Ron Simons: He's brilliant. If you've been sleeping on Byron Allen, wake
Ron Simons: up because that man has plans for the planet.
David Campt: So, Bill, what I want to tell you is that I know
David Campt: that you meant that in the best spirit about Byron Allen, who's
David Campt: awesome. One of the things that white folks should think
David Campt: about is that when you call a black person articulate,
David Campt: it's a little bit of a triggering thing. Because as
David Campt: Ron said earlier, part of what happens is that we've
David Campt: been called articulate as if that was a surprise to
David Campt: people. So the reason I'm saying this to you is because
David Campt: it might be useful for people to know that while
David Campt: Byron Allen is of course incredibly articulate, I'm just saying
David Campt: you might want to think about how you say that
David Campt: because of the history of people not of your heart saying
David Campt: it, it's a bit triggering.
Bill Curtis: What's a better word for me to use.
David Campt: Well, we're in dicey territory. I would say that, like,
David Campt: for example, what Ron did, he called it brilliant.
Ron Simons: There is brilliant. There is insightful. Right? There is groundbreaking.
Ron Simons: There are a lot of things that that man was
Ron Simons: doing that if you would just say to yourself, if I
Ron Simons: was talking about any white politician and they said what
Ron Simons: he said, how would you describe that white politician?
David Campt: When you're all in the realm of like how well
David Campt: you said it as opposed to what the construction of
David Campt: the idea is, you're in a more dicey territory, because
David Campt: people expects us to sound like ex- slaves and we [
David Campt: inaudible 00:12:40]. You don't want to distract people with that. So
David Campt: just be aware of that.
Bill Curtis: Well, I personally cannot imagine the corporation listening to this
Bill Curtis: and not contacting you and figuring out a way to
Bill Curtis: solve some of their issues. But we'll talk about that.
Bill Curtis: In the meantime, we're going to take a quick break
Bill Curtis: and we'll be right back. ( singing)
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Bill Curtis: We're back with Ron Simons and Dr. David Campt. Let's
Bill Curtis: dive into Broadway, Ron. How is Broadway as far as
Bill Curtis: diversity goes?
Ron Simons: Well, I think onstage, Broadway is fairly diverse. I would
Ron Simons: not say that it is at the same equity of
Ron Simons: the demographics as represented by the population of the United
Ron Simons: States, but it is certainly more diverse than every other
Ron Simons: part of Broadway. I marvel that for many years I
Ron Simons: would sit in a room for a Broadway show on
Ron Simons: which I was a producer and I would be the
Ron Simons: only person of color in that room and there would be
Ron Simons: 35 people. There were no black people who were co-
Ron Simons: producers like me, there were none in the advertising, none
Ron Simons: in the marketing, none in the press. It was very,
Ron Simons: very white. So I remember having a conversation with one
Ron Simons: of my lead producers saying, you know, I noticed that
Ron Simons: there aren't many people of color who are co- producers
Ron Simons: here. He said, yeah, and I'm really sorry. I wished
Ron Simons: we could have more. Then I challenged him. So you
Ron Simons: sound like you're doing something that's not working. What are
Ron Simons: you doing? That was not in fact the question that
Ron Simons: he wanted to hear, because he clearly got both aggravated
Ron Simons: and confused about what to say and what to do.
Ron Simons: But he said, you know, I'm really frustrated by it.
Ron Simons: You know, we can't get them there. It implied to
Ron Simons: me that you must be doing something [inaudible 00:14:50]. So all that
Ron Simons: is to say, there's a lot of work to do
Ron Simons: on Broadway. There's a lot of work to do in
Ron Simons: regional theaters around the country. It is like every other
Ron Simons: part of our culture, it's systemically racist.
Bill Curtis: Let's talk for a minute about the hashtag, we See
Bill Curtis: You, the letter that's entitled, Dear White American Theater. There's
Bill Curtis: a petition going around. You're familiar with it, I assume.
Ron Simons: Yeah, I've read it.
Bill Curtis: Does that well state the challenges and issues that are
Bill Curtis: occurring in Broadway?
Ron Simons: It talks about many of them, but it is not
Ron Simons: an exhaustive list, no. What I appreciated about that letter
Ron Simons: being signed by so many prominent theater artists, it pricked
Ron Simons: some people to go, oh, wait, what? Because we talk about
Ron Simons: diversity in the arts just the way we used to talk about
Ron Simons: diversity in the workplace. We just can't find enough quality black
Ron Simons: engineers. I wrote a letter the season before last, I
Ron Simons: think it was, that I found out that the gentleman playing Otello
Ron Simons: was white and was performing in blackface. I wrote to
Ron Simons: them and I said-
David Campt: You've really got to be kidding.
Ron Simons: Oh no, I'm very serious. Very serious.
David Campt: This is on Broadway?
Ron Simons: No, no. This is at the Metropolitan Opera.
David Campt: Oh, Lord.
Ron Simons: One of the premier opera houses in the world.
David Campt: Oh, Lord.
Ron Simons: I had to write a letter to say, seriously? I'm
Ron Simons: going to tell you why I think and I'm going to tell you what they said to me.
Ron Simons: They said to me that we have the highest standards
Ron Simons: of excellence at the Metropolitan Opera.
David Campt: Not the standards argument.
Ron Simons: There are no artists who are at the level of
Ron Simons: artistry than this person who we have hired to play
Ron Simons: this role. So that's what they said.
David Campt: He must be the Michael Jordan of opera, if that's the case.
Ron Simons: So it's my point of view is that the person who
Ron Simons: was running that place really had a bunch of issues
Ron Simons: around racism that he was not willing to talk about,
Ron Simons: and knew that he should not talk about because it
Ron Simons: would be very detrimental to him and the Metropolitan Opera,
Ron Simons: even though the number of people go to the Metropolitan
Ron Simons: Opera are not terribly diverse. If you go to see
Ron Simons: one of those operas, number one, they are insanely expensive,
Ron Simons: but number two, they seem to be designed for, and
Ron Simons: this is probably not fair to say, European people of
Ron Simons: European extract. That's my sense. I think that's so because
Ron Simons: rarely is an opera done that invites people such as
Ron Simons: Porgy and Bess. When you do Porgy and Bess, everybody
Ron Simons: wants to come out, all right? Because white folks will
Ron Simons: come out. Black folks is like, oh, this is our
Ron Simons: story. We definitely should come and support this. Right? So
Ron Simons: I say all that to say that systemic racism still exists.
Bill Curtis: Hold that thought, because I just wanted to say probably
Bill Curtis: the most profound and emotional performance playing George Washington was
Bill Curtis: played by a black man in Hamilton. It was more
Bill Curtis: convincing than any other time that I've seen that character,
Bill Curtis: to your point. Okay, now, where were you?
Ron Simons: Then we need to know. We need to go along
Ron Simons: that. How did that strike you? Tell me more about that.
Bill Curtis: As a white guy, when they first came up on
Bill Curtis: stage, you're surprised. Wow, they've got a black George Washington.
Bill Curtis: About four minutes later, you're totally on board. You're completely absorbed.
Ron Simons: But why was it so affecting, though? Why was it so affecting?
Bill Curtis: You're probably taken from a little bit of shock that,
Bill Curtis: hey, there's a black George Washington, to, wow, that was
Bill Curtis: really powerful.
Ron Simons: I'm wondering if you had seen another actor who was
Ron Simons: white, who was as equally good at his acting and
Ron Simons: his singing, if you would have found Hamilton, not having
Ron Simons: any people of color in it, as effective.
David Campt: Or that, and would you have found that performance as
David Campt: affecting, as well as the overall thing? You tell me.
Bill Curtis: I do think you're right. I think that you learn
Bill Curtis: that all of a sudden, four minutes in when you
Bill Curtis: become color blind and you're just watching the performance, it's
Bill Curtis: a pretty powerful thing. I've got to give it to you,
Bill Curtis: would I have traveled that far and be so profoundly
Bill Curtis: effected if it had been a white guy who played
Bill Curtis: that part, I don't know.
David Campt: I don't think you became colorblind. I think that the
David Campt: fact that they were not white is actually enhancing your
David Campt: experience of what happened. That's why I asked the question
David Campt: of what would have happened had just that performer been
David Campt: white, how that have been different? I think that them being
David Campt: not white, but performing these iconic historical white figures, is
David Campt: part of like you connect with like how those people
David Campt: lived up to what they said and didn't because of
David Campt: who's performing it.
Ron Simons: And the level of extraordinary artistry that was exhibited on
Ron Simons: that stage.
Bill Curtis: So one of the things that you mentioned the other
Bill Curtis: day when we talked about Broadway, Ron, was the challenge
Bill Curtis: of a black man getting a grant and getting the
Bill Curtis: funding to build a show. Why is that?
Ron Simons: Well, I think part of the reason that there are
Ron Simons: so few African American producers on Broadway is multifaceted. One,
Ron Simons: as a general rule, we don't come from types of
Ron Simons: families where our Rolodex is as powerful as our white
Ron Simons: compadres. I couldn't call my cousin who can write me
Ron Simons: a check for $ 250,000. I can't call my friend David
Ron Simons: who'd write me a check for $ 250,000. Because I know
Ron Simons: very few people who can write that check and do
Ron Simons: that. Whereas many people I know either come from money
Ron Simons: themselves or they come from a network of people that
Ron Simons: are very affluent. So that's the one thing. So it's
Ron Simons: a barrier to entry by not having access to the
Ron Simons: funds that you need to put on a show.
David Campt: Parenthetically, just to be clear, black wealth/ white wealth, 10 to
David Campt: 1. what Ron is saying is born out by actual
David Campt: stats about wealth among different groups.
Bill Curtis: It sounds to me like you've got a lot of
Bill Curtis: shows out there that are good at entertaining. Yours accomplished
Bill Curtis: that and also sent a message. I would think that there
Bill Curtis: would be more powerful arts patrons' money for someone like
Bill Curtis: you than otherwise.
Ron Simons: Yeah, I would agree. The fact of the matter is, however, while that
Ron Simons: is true, there are a number of people who have told me on even
Ron Simons: the shows that I am producing today, you know, be
Ron Simons: it Blue, Thoughts of a Colored Man, or the revival
Ron Simons: of For Colored Girls, who feel, and I'm just saying
Ron Simons: this is my perception, they feel it's too risky. For
Ron Simons: me, that's coded, oh, it's a black show. Okay? That
Ron Simons: risk, they perceive that investing in a story about African
Ron Simons: Americans or people of color is too risky because at
Ron Simons: the end of the day people who come to see
Ron Simons: Broadway shows don't want to go see a show about
Ron Simons: black people. Which is the same thing I ran into
Ron Simons: when I used to produce films. You know, international sales buyers
Ron Simons: will often tell me, no, black content just doesn't do
Ron Simons: very well overseas. Guess what? If that's your mindset, you
Ron Simons: won't bring any over, and so you'll never know whether
Ron Simons: or not it would make money or be successful or
Ron Simons: not because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You can't
Ron Simons: make money if it's not out there. So my job
Ron Simons: that's challenging for me is to help people understand that
Ron Simons: just because it's African American does not mean it's more
Ron Simons: or less risky. In fact, my job as a storyteller
Ron Simons: is to tell the universal themed stories of redemption, stories
Ron Simons: of true love, of family love and affair. At SimonSays, we
Ron Simons: put a different lens on that universal theme so that
Ron Simons: you can go in. A lot of artists will tell you that
Ron Simons: the more specific an art piece is and the more
Ron Simons: specific of a culture and the people are in that
Ron Simons: organization, the more universal will be the appeal and the
Ron Simons: universal adaptation of that story. If you really want systemic change, there
Ron Simons: needs to be diverse representation at every level of Broadway.
Ron Simons: We've done a decent job up here with the people
Ron Simons: on stage. The producers? Well, they are five black producers
Ron Simons: out of the hundreds of producers, where when I came
Ron Simons: on, there were two of us. But it does not represent
Ron Simons: the 30% that we are in the United States. Then
Ron Simons: it becomes the theater owners, where there's not a single
Ron Simons: person of color at all at any theater that's owned.
Ron Simons: They tend to be older and they are white. Here's
Ron Simons: the thing. They are the most powerful in that equation.
Ron Simons: Because even as I, as a producer, and I have a show that I want
Ron Simons: to produce, and I'm like, oh my God, this is great. I've
Ron Simons: got this great cast. I've got these people. The fact of
Ron Simons: the matter is if some theater owner does not say
Ron Simons: you can do your show in my theater, it won't be
Ron Simons: on Broadway. So if there wants to be real systemic
Ron Simons: change, if there wants to offer some level of power
Ron Simons: to (inaudible) someone who does not look like everyone
Ron Simons: else around the table, there needs to be an invitation
Ron Simons: to say, we want you to be a part of
Ron Simons: this. We will do things to help bring that person,
Ron Simons: or you, or those people, to the table.
David Campt: There's a hunger in the American culture to actually deal
David Campt: with our racial history and our racial reality. I would
David Campt: encourage people in the Broadway realm to reevaluate what is
David Campt: the role of messages about race in the theater? If
David Campt: you're going to do that, it's important that you try
David Campt: to make sure that the levels of the hierarchy that
David Campt: are overly white, change. So if you're really going to try to
David Campt: diversify your messages, then you might want to also look
David Campt: at the institutions that you have and what needs to
David Campt: happen so that those institutions, top to bottom, reflect the
David Campt: multicultural diversity that America is.
Ron Simons: I think the reason why more black people or people
Ron Simons: of color don't come to Broadway is for two reasons.
Ron Simons: Either, A, they don't see themselves represented in the stories,
Ron Simons: or, B, they're not invited. What we tend to do
Ron Simons: from an advertising and marketing perspective, we spend the vast
Ron Simons: majority of our money and dollars on advertising in the
Ron Simons: New York Times, and The New Yorker, and et cetera, et
Ron Simons: cetera, which really is where the core, early core, audience
Ron Simons: is. Which is to say white women between the ages
Ron Simons: of 50 and 70. So I hit it. Your show must stay
Ron Simons: open long enough so that the tourists can come and see
Ron Simons: your show. The ad spending must reflect the fact that
Ron Simons: you are in fact interested in having a diverse audience
Ron Simons: to pull. Now, there are times when you don't even
Ron Simons: need to do that. If you went to go see A Raisin
Ron Simons: in the Sun with P. Diddy and Sanaa Lathan, I
Ron Simons: had never seen that many black people in the theater
Ron Simons: in my life. Why? Because it was perceived as their
Ron Simons: story. The word of mouth, which is a very powerful
Ron Simons: tool on Broadway, was ginormous for that piece. Right? So
Ron Simons: they invited, to a small degree, black people to that,
Ron Simons: but they told a story by one of the greatest
Ron Simons: African American playwrights in history. So they felt welcome. This
Ron Simons: is where David and I completely overlap, right? Because I
Ron Simons: know that storytelling is the most effective medium for change on the
Ron Simons: planet. Because if I can tell you a good story,
Ron Simons: that means that you can empathize with me and understand
Ron Simons: what my struggle, challenges, loves, beliefs are, even though you
Ron Simons: don't look like me, sound like me, eat my food,
Ron Simons: listen to my music. The storytelling component is critical.
David Campt: What I'm trying to do is get people to tell their
David Campt: own stories as a (crosstalk) to each other.
Ron Simons: Yep.
Bill Curtis: Basically, start by communicating, and then take action from there.
Bill Curtis: Don't forget to actually talk to each other.
Ron Simons: That's right. And this is the thing that's a great benefit of
Ron Simons: storytelling. Storytelling builds community. We sat in a room and
Ron Simons: we watched Hamilton. That connected us to a whole bunch
Ron Simons: of other people out there who love Hamilton that we
Ron Simons: can connect with, agree with, want to talk about, want
Ron Simons: to sing along with. The same thing for if you're
Ron Simons: dealing with racism-
David Campt: Well, that's interesting.
Ron Simons: And talking about racism, then you have to have you talking
Ron Simons: about racism. Hey, Ted, come over here. What do you think about such
Ron Simons: and such? Now we have three people. Soon you have
Ron Simons: a community of people. It's not just you, the lone voice. It
Ron Simons: is a community of people who are working together to
Ron Simons: affect change.
Bill Curtis: We've got a long road ahead. I really appreciate you
Bill Curtis: guys coming and joining us today. Dr. David Campt, I
Bill Curtis: really appreciate you giving us a little taste of the
Bill Curtis: White Ally Toolkit. It's The Dialogue Company, right?
David Campt: Whiteallytoolkit. com. I'm starting a new cohort of people with
David Campt: an online course where people are encouraged to go through
David Campt: this incremental process of learning these methods where the homework
David Campt: is basically talking to people. But also we're trying to
David Campt: get the Facebook likes up, so I would say that people come into our
David Campt: Facebook page at White Ally Toolkit, because no matter what
David Campt: they say, all likes matter.
Bill Curtis: Ron Simons at SimonSays Entertainment. Is there another way, Ron, that you want people to
Bill Curtis: get ahold of you?
Ron Simons: We have a Facebook page. Our website is www. simonsaysentertainment. com.
Ron Simons: You can see the work, a number of the pieces
Ron Simons: that we have going on, and just sign up for the
Ron Simons: newsletter. If you really want to find out what's happening, when
Ron Simons: it's happening, please visit the website and let us know
Ron Simons: who you are.
Bill Curtis: Ron Simons and Dr. David Campt, thank you so much
Bill Curtis: for giving us your time and insight. Have a good
Bill Curtis: day, everybody. If you like what you hear, please tell
Bill Curtis: your friends, and let us know how we're doing by
Bill Curtis: leaving a comment. It really helps if you give us
Bill Curtis: a five star rating, and we really appreciate it. You
Bill Curtis: can also subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher,
Bill Curtis: or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. This episode
Bill Curtis: was produced and edited by Mike Thomas, audio engineering by
Bill Curtis: Michael Kennedy, and the theme music was composed and performed
Bill Curtis: by Celeste and Eric Dick. Thanks for listening. ( singing)
Announcer: From CurtCo Media. Media for your mind.