Speaker 1: Because it doesn't work. You're just not using enough. You're
Speaker 1: listening to Software Radial, Special Operations, military news and straight
Speaker 1: talk with the guys in the community. Were and everyone,
Speaker 1: welcome back to Software Radio. I'm your host today, Steve Balistrari,
Speaker 1: Software Radio on Time, on Target. We have a tremendous
Speaker 1: guests with us today, somebody that we were all following
Speaker 1: his case for quite a while and uh we have
Speaker 1: Clint Lawrence, former lieutenant actually former captain in the United
Speaker 1: States Army. And we'll get into all that in just
Speaker 1: a second. But Clint was unfairly dealt a big blow
Speaker 1: by the Army and he was I'm i would say,
Speaker 1: unlawfully convicted of a war crime in Afghanistan. But luckily,
Speaker 1: after six years of spending time in Fort level Worth,
Speaker 1: he was pardoned by President Trump. And we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about all that, and we're gonna talk about his case.
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about he just wrote a book called
Speaker 1: uh Stolen Honor, and we're gonna talk about that as well.
Speaker 1: And but before we do that, let's welcome Clint to
Speaker 1: sawt Fare Radio. Clint, thank you, thank you very much
Speaker 1: for taking the time today and talking with us. Well,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me, Steve. It's really good to be
Speaker 1: it's really an honored to be on the show. Well,
Speaker 1: it's an honor for us. And we're so glad we're
Speaker 1: talking to you as a freeman. Uh we were talking
Speaker 1: offline just a minute ago, and you're getting ready to
Speaker 1: start law school and uh, you know you're you were
Speaker 1: talking about seeing deer in the distance and that's the
Speaker 1: kind of atmosphere we want you to be seeing, not
Speaker 1: the inside of a cell. But let's get into a
Speaker 1: little bit. I I want you to fill in our
Speaker 1: listeners about your early military career, as you started as
Speaker 1: an enlisted man um and you know, we'll just talk
Speaker 1: briefly about that. Phillison, about your early military career. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I always wanted to be a State trooper all
Speaker 1: throughout in high school and I thought that was what
Speaker 1: I was gonna do. And then, uh, you know, nine
Speaker 1: eleven happened and I thought that, you know, maybe I
Speaker 1: should go join the military and contribute. And so that's
Speaker 1: what I did. And I intended on just doing a
Speaker 1: couple of years and then you know, getting out and
Speaker 1: then going back to Texas and being a state trooper. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, I got in the army and and
Speaker 1: UH iron listened as any one UH and I I
Speaker 1: just loved it. I I liked the camaraderie and and
Speaker 1: e uh the way that UM the army, you know,
Speaker 1: at least the units that I was in initially. UM,
Speaker 1: we we had a brotherhood and we we took care
Speaker 1: of each other, and we always had each other's back.
Speaker 1: And I think that's something that is missing in the
Speaker 1: military these days, UM, and it's definitely missing in general
Speaker 1: society these days. UM. So I worked up to becaman
Speaker 1: n CEO, you know, just like everybody does. And UM.
Speaker 1: And when I once I made the six, I went
Speaker 1: to UM UM r OKC down at University of North
Speaker 1: Texas and UM did that for a couple of years
Speaker 1: and and transitioned over to to be UH an officer
Speaker 1: and went on to UM forbidding. You know, I had
Speaker 1: stopped by there. And then I went up to Fort
Speaker 1: Bragg and and then to Afghanistan. So UM. Then from
Speaker 1: Afghanistan went to Fort Levenmouth and then UM and the
Speaker 1: rest is history. Yeah. You know, UM, in your book
Speaker 1: you talked after being in n c O and going
Speaker 1: to college, I did that. I got when I was
Speaker 1: still in n c O of the Army. Let me
Speaker 1: go back to school for for a bit. And it's
Speaker 1: a big transition, isn't it. I Mean, when you're used to,
Speaker 1: you know, being in the army and then you go
Speaker 1: back to the college life. It's it's kind of a
Speaker 1: weird feeling, isn't it. It is, UM. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that that I can remember is UM sitting
Speaker 1: in the classrooms. You know, I would always sit in
Speaker 1: the back and just kind of you know, watch everybody
Speaker 1: and everything. And you know, there were a couple of obnoxious,
Speaker 1: UM former marine guys that would would always talk about
Speaker 1: their military service in classes and stuff. But UM, so
Speaker 1: you know, I would always just sit there and kind
Speaker 1: of think to myself because like you know, there are
Speaker 1: are very few people in this classroom that understand, UM,
Speaker 1: the real threat that that you know, is being presented
Speaker 1: to them that you know, they don't even have to
Speaker 1: uh to ever encounter because there are so many people
Speaker 1: men and women out there that are that are stopping
Speaker 1: it before he ever gets to our shore. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's definitely am It's something that UM the perspective of
Speaker 1: all these yahoo's, you know, running around in the streets
Speaker 1: of Portland right now, and and uh, you know, all
Speaker 1: these socialist type people they really just don't understand, um,
Speaker 1: what life is really all about. And you know, thankfully
Speaker 1: they have people like you and people like you know
Speaker 1: a lot of your listeners who who they take the
Speaker 1: front of that and um so so those yeah who don't,
Speaker 1: they don't have to ever worry about it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it was definitely a a an experience. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: I never really transitioned back into trying to be a civilian.
Speaker 1: I couldn't do it. They're just, um, you know, they're
Speaker 1: just not my speed of people. Um. But you know,
Speaker 1: there I met some good people there at North Texas
Speaker 1: UM and some you know, some people, A couple of them,
Speaker 1: UM supported me with the ones that I was closest with,
Speaker 1: supported me throughout the whole Um Leavenworth Ordeal and and
Speaker 1: um even came to visit me there, and UM, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some really great people. UM. One of them, you know,
Speaker 1: interesting enough for for your audience. UM. One of them, Uh,
Speaker 1: one of the women that I went to RTC with
Speaker 1: there became one of the first women to graduate from
Speaker 1: Ranger School. So I know that might be a sore
Speaker 1: topic with some of your listeners, But I thought that
Speaker 1: was just I thought that was really cool. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember reading that in your book. I thought that
Speaker 1: was awesome. I mean, you talked about a small world
Speaker 1: and we're all kind of interconnected, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: because that was big news there for a while there.
Speaker 1: And now we just had the first female graduate from
Speaker 1: SF training and uh, oh my god, there's uh, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of hard feelings among the a lot of
Speaker 1: the SF guys with that. I'm of the attitude. I
Speaker 1: wasn't there. I didn't put her through training, but I
Speaker 1: know somebody that knows, somebody who was a SF instructor,
Speaker 1: and I from what I was told, she not only
Speaker 1: met the standard, she exceeded them. They said physically, she
Speaker 1: was in a much bigger stud than a lot of
Speaker 1: the dudes were. So as far as I'm concerned, you know,
Speaker 1: these women who make it through Ranger Training and now
Speaker 1: SF hats off to them. It's gonna be tough for
Speaker 1: them because we know that, you know, does that male
Speaker 1: kind of dominated society and guys don't like people treading
Speaker 1: on their turf. But I think it's awesome and I
Speaker 1: I found that part of your book really fascinating, as
Speaker 1: well as another area which resonated with me. You talked
Speaker 1: about going through summer training with some of the West
Speaker 1: Point officers, and I thought that was hilarious because I've
Speaker 1: experienced that from the other side. I taught UH a
Speaker 1: class one summer jump school to West Pointers and UH
Speaker 1: fill our listeners in on some of that. I thought
Speaker 1: that was great. Well, I'm sorry I had to deal
Speaker 1: with them. I've got I've got. I can count on
Speaker 1: one hand the amount of West Point officers that that
Speaker 1: I could trust, UM and I know would have my
Speaker 1: back and and that has or that have had my back,
Speaker 1: and UM, you know that's that's what it all boils
Speaker 1: down to me, is as loyalty and brotherhood. And so
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, UM, you know, if
Speaker 1: you're in uniform, whether it's a police uniform or a
Speaker 1: military uniform, you've got plenty of people who are willing
Speaker 1: to be your enemy. So the men and women next
Speaker 1: to you, to your left and right do not need
Speaker 1: to volunteer for that position. So the way I look
Speaker 1: at it is, um, brotherhood is something that's very important
Speaker 1: to being able to do your job and that's what
Speaker 1: my book is all about. And you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I appreciate Steve that that you guys took an interest in,
Speaker 1: uh given me the opportunity to talk to your audience here,
Speaker 1: and I really do because I think the people in
Speaker 1: your audience understand brotherhood. And so you know, in terms
Speaker 1: of um, the the way that the military is today, UM,
Speaker 1: in terms of the West Point guys that we were
Speaker 1: talking about just a minute ago. UM, they espouse that UM,
Speaker 1: that left leaning um position that brotherhood doesn't exist anymore.
Speaker 1: And that's the only thing that matters is that we
Speaker 1: quote unquote do the right thing. And you know, they
Speaker 1: get to define what the right thing is. And so
Speaker 1: you know, I'll just say up front, and I've said this,
Speaker 1: you know, a million times because I sort of have
Speaker 1: to say this, UM that you know, I don't think
Speaker 1: anybody should ever get go into a combat zone and
Speaker 1: just do whatever they want and just disregard the rules. UM.
Speaker 1: And I think your audience probably agrees with that. UM.
Speaker 1: We've we've got to have rules. We've we've got to uh,
Speaker 1: you know, represent America out well, and we have to
Speaker 1: do that for the men and women who have died
Speaker 1: before us were in that uniform, and for for our
Speaker 1: sons and daughters who will put that uniform on, we've
Speaker 1: got to make sure that we always respect that. And
Speaker 1: I think you know, for you know, buy and large,
Speaker 1: absolutely by and large, the men and women that that
Speaker 1: wear that uniform, um overseas, then on our streets here,
Speaker 1: the police officers here on our streets, you know, they
Speaker 1: they do the uniform well, um, And so you know,
Speaker 1: I think that, uh, in terms of those West Point guys,
Speaker 1: the reason why I have so much animosity towards them
Speaker 1: is because they believed during the Obama administration, they believe
Speaker 1: that nonsense that um, it's okay to throw somebody under
Speaker 1: the bus as long as it gets you promoted or
Speaker 1: as long as I get my general star. And I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't believe in that. I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: the right thing is something that doesn't ever change, and
Speaker 1: that is, um, you wake up every single day and
Speaker 1: you try to be the best person that you can
Speaker 1: possibly be, and if something terrible happens to you, you
Speaker 1: don't pry about it. You put your boots back on
Speaker 1: and you keep moving. And you know that's something that
Speaker 1: you know, those West Point people, they want to sit
Speaker 1: around and talk about it all day. Well, how could
Speaker 1: we have done this better? How could we have done that?
Speaker 1: They want to sit around and they expect you to
Speaker 1: cry about it. And and one of them, you know, amazingly,
Speaker 1: one of the lieutenant colonels actually asked me. He said, Uh,
Speaker 1: I don't understand why you're not more upset about this?
Speaker 1: Why are why are you? He he made the comment
Speaker 1: that I might have been aloof And you know, I
Speaker 1: had to go and get to go to the internet
Speaker 1: cafe and look up the word aloof um, and so
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm thinking of myself. So this guy wants
Speaker 1: me to cry over spilt milk, and that's just not
Speaker 1: gonna happen. That's not the way I was raised, and
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the way the American people expect
Speaker 1: their military to be. And so that's just that. I
Speaker 1: think that kind of gives you a little bit of
Speaker 1: insight um into why I have so much um for
Speaker 1: US stration towards the people that come out of West Point.
Speaker 1: They're just two left wanning and I I just don't
Speaker 1: get it. I don't understand how that can happen. I
Speaker 1: think it's a doctor nation um, but um. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of them meet their platoons, sergeants, and they
Speaker 1: meet their senior n c o s, and they gradually
Speaker 1: start to bring them over to you know, at least
Speaker 1: to the center and give them a little bit of sense. Um.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, there are a lot of them that don't.
Speaker 1: And those are the people that that I've identified in
Speaker 1: the book as my uh enemies and the enemies of
Speaker 1: of brotherhood and of the men and women who you
Speaker 1: know deserve to have a brotherhood. Yeah, And with that,
Speaker 1: I want to get into, you know, the meat of
Speaker 1: the subject, which was that incident that happened in Afghanistan,
Speaker 1: because you know, when you at first glance, I mean
Speaker 1: I remember reading about this as you know, the court
Speaker 1: martial transpired, and I will so much of the material
Speaker 1: wasn't presented, even though it was in the hands of
Speaker 1: the army. And I want to get into that. But
Speaker 1: you know, you were in Afghanistan for quite a while.
Speaker 1: You were on the battalion staff in the talk and
Speaker 1: then uh, the lieutenant of a line platoon that was
Speaker 1: at a strong point, he was wounded in an I
Speaker 1: D attack and the battalion commander chose you to go
Speaker 1: down there and take it over, and that I think
Speaker 1: that's the important thing that people need to realize right away.
Speaker 1: They had a choice of a bunch of different lieutenants
Speaker 1: and they chose you, and that was something that came
Speaker 1: out later on. I remember the battalion sargeant major making
Speaker 1: a statement to the fact of that they could have
Speaker 1: chosen anyone, they chose you. And so let's let's get
Speaker 1: into this because explain to our listeners, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: as quickly as you can. I mean we could probably
Speaker 1: talk for a couple of days on this, but um,
Speaker 1: you know the situation, how you came to be in
Speaker 1: command down at that strong point, and then how things transpired. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and thank you for mentioning the sergeant major. He's just
Speaker 1: a great dude. He had not back the entire time
Speaker 1: and unfortunately got overruled um by the you know, the
Speaker 1: butt kissers, um that were officer senior officer rank. But
Speaker 1: Sergeant Major Augustus and a just an amazing guy. Um.
Speaker 1: I wish all leaders were like him. So you know,
Speaker 1: to your question, um, what actually happened is real. Briefly, UM,
Speaker 1: we were on a foot patrol and it was a
Speaker 1: joint US Afghan foot patrol with the Afghan Army contingent
Speaker 1: up front, and it was a squad plus size element.
Speaker 1: We were crossing the road. UM. I was on our
Speaker 1: radio talking to the helicopter and giving them stuff to do. UM,
Speaker 1: and at the same time was trying to navigate an obstacle. UM.
Speaker 1: And I was, uh as I was, you know, negotiating
Speaker 1: this obstacle. I was on the blind side of this obstacle.
Speaker 1: One of my soldiers yells back and says, you know,
Speaker 1: he's frantically freaking out. And this this soldier is and
Speaker 1: and he's um telling me that there is a motorcycle
Speaker 1: coming at a high rate of speed. And you know,
Speaker 1: I know in the back of my mind that I've
Speaker 1: got half of my men across the road and half
Speaker 1: of them still on this side of the road. And
Speaker 1: there's some you know, obviously actively crossing the road. So
Speaker 1: I know that we're in a vulnerable position. And so
Speaker 1: you know, this this soldier who who um yells back
Speaker 1: and you know, is asking me, you know, if he
Speaker 1: can fire. I I know he is someone who has experience.
Speaker 1: I know that he is someone who had been a
Speaker 1: former civilian police officer. So I know that this is
Speaker 1: a more mature guy. He's a private, I get it,
Speaker 1: but he's a more mature guy. And I know that
Speaker 1: because I had sat down with all of the eyes
Speaker 1: when I first got there, and interviewed each and every
Speaker 1: one of them, and I wanted to get to know
Speaker 1: them as much as I could. And you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not some you know, brilliant, you know, lead or anything.
Speaker 1: I just copied the people that I look up to
Speaker 1: when I was a private, and I had a staff
Speaker 1: sergeant and then a captain do the same thing to
Speaker 1: me when I was a private, and I really liked that,
Speaker 1: so I just copied it. I think that's what we
Speaker 1: all do, and we take little bits and pieces from
Speaker 1: here and there and we try to make an inmt
Speaker 1: to who we are. So we're as we're crossing this road,
Speaker 1: I have a couple of things in my mind, and um,
Speaker 1: the next thing, you know, this is all happening in
Speaker 1: a matter of seconds, like very very quickly. Um, the
Speaker 1: next thing you know, Uh, the Afghan Army contingent starts
Speaker 1: firing and I don't know who's firing. And you know
Speaker 1: a lot of people can they can tell the difference
Speaker 1: and what an a K four to seven is in
Speaker 1: an M sixteen and in floor and I can't, right,
Speaker 1: I just don't pay that close enough attention, right, And
Speaker 1: I may I may be able to if I had
Speaker 1: more experience with it, but you know, I was pretty green. So, UM,
Speaker 1: I I hear people up front firing. Um, I don't
Speaker 1: know who it is firing. Um, I'm assuming that it
Speaker 1: is the ask games because none of my guys have
Speaker 1: have told me that they're firing or have asked permission
Speaker 1: to fire until that very moment when the guy turned
Speaker 1: around and started asking for permission to fire. So um,
Speaker 1: I told him yes. And here's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking.
Speaker 1: There's a hundred things going through my mind at the time,
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm thinking to myself, I'm I'm a
Speaker 1: new guy. I've got next to no combat experience. I'm
Speaker 1: taking over for these guys who have been here several
Speaker 1: months already and have a ton of experience, much more
Speaker 1: than me. And this guy is turned around and asking
Speaker 1: me if he can defend himself, And so who am
Speaker 1: I to come in and tell somebody like that that
Speaker 1: they can't defend themselves? And so I say yes, right,
Speaker 1: And so he takes a shot at the motorcycle. Now,
Speaker 1: let me remind everybody, I can't see the motorcycle because
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to get over this wall. And uh.
Speaker 1: So you know, this is all happening very very quickly,
Speaker 1: and it's not like I have time to actually you know,
Speaker 1: uh litigate and you know, be deliberate. I you just
Speaker 1: don't have time. And you know that's one of the
Speaker 1: things that came out in my court martial. And one
Speaker 1: of the things my lawyer kept on saying is is,
Speaker 1: uh is did you expect him to um, you know,
Speaker 1: to hold an inquiry or to to you know, litigate
Speaker 1: like a lawyer would. There's no time for that. And
Speaker 1: I told hire um fired, uh And he did not
Speaker 1: fire effectively. He missed UM. And you know, I don't
Speaker 1: blame him. It was a very you know, uh kinetic situation.
Speaker 1: It was often really fast, and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff going on. UM. And so I told, you know,
Speaker 1: and when I went once I started here and somebody
Speaker 1: else fire up front, and I sort of kind of
Speaker 1: processing what was going on, I was like, all right,
Speaker 1: I need to tell everybody just to chill out, and
Speaker 1: we need to take control of the situation. So I
Speaker 1: got on the radio and told everybody to stop fire.
Speaker 1: And and then I ordered the gun truck, which I
Speaker 1: knew had an overwatched position, to take a precision shot
Speaker 1: and fire to make sure that we cut down on
Speaker 1: um collateral damage. Because if we've got a bunch of
Speaker 1: guys that are on the ground, Um, you know about
Speaker 1: a bunch of riflemen on the ground, whether they're Afghan
Speaker 1: Army or or American Army, and everybody's opening fire, I
Speaker 1: think that's less uh, that's more of a collateral damage concerned. Then, UM,
Speaker 1: when you have a you know, a guy at the
Speaker 1: end of a behind the two forty bravo and that's
Speaker 1: mounted on a gun truck with you know, he's at
Speaker 1: an elevated position he's got I think he's got a
Speaker 1: better position to fire, So I ordered him to fire. UM.
Speaker 1: So essentially I was sent for what was twenty years
Speaker 1: and they really um for issuing that order, right and
Speaker 1: and I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to
Speaker 1: let our listeners know that the Afghans were well aware
Speaker 1: of what happens when you approach the US unit either
Speaker 1: on foot or in vehicles at a high rate of
Speaker 1: speed on motorcycles. Am I correct? Yeah? Absolutely, And you
Speaker 1: know there was there was contention in my court martial.
Speaker 1: I'm re loovant to call it a trial because it
Speaker 1: really was kind of like a kangaroo court. It was
Speaker 1: more of a um of administrative proceeding because they had
Speaker 1: already decided what, um, what they wanted done before it
Speaker 1: even started. UM, so we were just kind of there
Speaker 1: to check the box. But UM so you know, in
Speaker 1: terms of UH the with the Afghans, UH by that time,
Speaker 1: it was two thousand and twelve, so we're talking about
Speaker 1: eleven years of dealing with American units in various different forms,
Speaker 1: and NATO units and various different forms. And on top
Speaker 1: of that, the road that uh they were trying to
Speaker 1: go down was one that we had UH put concertina
Speaker 1: wire up on on either side, triple stranded concertino wire,
Speaker 1: and we put up science that that so this is
Speaker 1: our road where this is restricted for military and police
Speaker 1: use only. And the reason for that is because that
Speaker 1: was our lifeline road. So we only had one truck
Speaker 1: that we could use to shuttle back and forth to
Speaker 1: where my UM senior headquarters was, my parent headquarters was,
Speaker 1: and so you know, we were kind of uh, we
Speaker 1: were down. My my strong point was kind of down
Speaker 1: by itself, um in the kind of the thick of things.
Speaker 1: And um, we had to have a way to go
Speaker 1: back and forth and shuttle somebody just in case we
Speaker 1: gotta somebody get hurt or um, you know, we need
Speaker 1: to get supplies or go to some sort of dumb
Speaker 1: meeting or something. We would use that road. Um. So
Speaker 1: we wanted to make sure that road was always clear.
Speaker 1: So we had signs up when we had concertina wire up.
Speaker 1: So the guy was trying to we do that road.
Speaker 1: So No, there are several different factors that I'm taking
Speaker 1: into consideration, and that's one of them. So uh, you know,
Speaker 1: after at that time, being you know, interacting with American
Speaker 1: forces for eleven years, at that point, um, you know,
Speaker 1: it would be a a reasonable assumption, um that most
Speaker 1: of the people in Afghanistan would know how to deal
Speaker 1: with American forces. And that is when they tell you
Speaker 1: to stop or they shoot at you, you probably need
Speaker 1: to stop. Um. Now look, I'm like, like you said,
Speaker 1: I'm in law school, so you can't assume anything. Um,
Speaker 1: So I get that, but I just want you know,
Speaker 1: especially in this book, you can kind of see where
Speaker 1: my my thinking was, UM, And there's it's it's not
Speaker 1: a simple decision to make, and it's not a an
Speaker 1: easy decision to make to to take a human life, UM.
Speaker 1: But to me, UM, if it comes down to me
Speaker 1: protecting my troops or um them possibly uh coming up
Speaker 1: and detonating some sort of device dropping up, grenading our feet,
Speaker 1: or you know, maybe have maybe haven't seefol only the
Speaker 1: gas tank of the motorcycle itself. Whatever, there's so many
Speaker 1: different possibilities if it comes down to them or my troops.
Speaker 1: I'm going to protect my troops UM. And and that's
Speaker 1: just you know, I'll go back to for it, let
Speaker 1: more than for another twenty years if I have to
Speaker 1: make the same decision over with, it's that to me,
Speaker 1: that's you know, you've got to uh, You've you've got
Speaker 1: to put a if you're gonna send American troops into
Speaker 1: a combat zone, you've got to be able to protect them.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you're if you're gonna send these
Speaker 1: these young officers into um and put them in charge
Speaker 1: of them, then you've got to let them make decisions
Speaker 1: on the on the on the ground. And you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that I talked about in the
Speaker 1: book a lot is is the micro management that was
Speaker 1: going on, UM where you know, the Lighthouse was making decisions, uh, directly,
Speaker 1: you know, battlefield decisions that we should have been making
Speaker 1: UM and and micro managing do such an extent that
Speaker 1: we are were tied. So I think there's there's just
Speaker 1: a lot of different things that go into you know,
Speaker 1: what happened with my case and and listen, Steve, I
Speaker 1: don't I don't want anyone to ever look at me
Speaker 1: as a victim because I'm not. And I can't stand
Speaker 1: people with that victim mentality. UM. But there is something
Speaker 1: The reason why I wrote this book is because there
Speaker 1: is something wrong. When something that happened to me happens
Speaker 1: to a member of the U. S Military, there's something
Speaker 1: wrong with the system. And I wrote the book so
Speaker 1: I could try to get exposures so so people would
Speaker 1: understand that stuff like this happens. And uh, and that's
Speaker 1: another reason why I'm going to law schools. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: try to fix it right. And you know, when the
Speaker 1: this is where like you know, right at the time
Speaker 1: of the firing, this is where everything should have been
Speaker 1: cut and dried I mean, um, from reading you know,
Speaker 1: the transcript from your lawyers. I read the book. Uh.
Speaker 1: The two men that were killed on the motorcycle, a
Speaker 1: third got away, you know. Uh, they were immediately characterized
Speaker 1: by the army, who did an immediate investigation as civilians.
Speaker 1: But the fact was that these guys the army uses
Speaker 1: what they called bio for our listeners out there that
Speaker 1: may not be aware, the army uses what they're called biometrics,
Speaker 1: and that's how they test for bombmakers. And all of
Speaker 1: these guys had biometric data on them. They had left
Speaker 1: fingerprints or DNA on bomb components, on I E. D s.
Speaker 1: All three of them had. And the army kind of
Speaker 1: blocked that and they blocked out their names during the
Speaker 1: investigation and they wrote and uh, they crossed out their
Speaker 1: names and the charging documents and wrote in pen a
Speaker 1: male of apparent Afghan descent, because if they had their
Speaker 1: names on there, they would have been identified as Afghan bombmakers.
Speaker 1: And this is where this whole trial comes right off
Speaker 1: the rails. And it's amazing that our military allowed this
Speaker 1: to happen. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to
Speaker 1: cut you off there. I just wanted to fill in
Speaker 1: our our listeners on that that little bit. But tell
Speaker 1: us more how than how everything transpired for you. Yeah, Steve,
Speaker 1: you've obviously done your homework. I appreciate you bringing that
Speaker 1: up because you know, one of the things that really
Speaker 1: just kind of, um shocked me to my core is, uh,
Speaker 1: the the DNA evidence, the biometric you know, the epithelials
Speaker 1: and the DNA um evidence that they found, you know,
Speaker 1: on these bombs. That these guys, the guys that we uh,
Speaker 1: that I ordered killed and that that the one of
Speaker 1: the guys that you know, he we just shot him
Speaker 1: in the arm. Um. You know, that wasn't my preference.
Speaker 1: But you know, my soldiers were a little bit more
Speaker 1: to the left than I was. Um, so look, uh,
Speaker 1: these guys. There were six members of the United States
Speaker 1: Army and the United States Marines who were killed with
Speaker 1: the same But I'm trying to be careful here because
Speaker 1: my lawyers are on me about making sure the facts
Speaker 1: are right and everything. But there were six members of
Speaker 1: the U. S Military who were killed by people associated
Speaker 1: closely associated with these quote civilians unquote civilians. So the
Speaker 1: Army is saying these guys are civilians, but these guys uh,
Speaker 1: have made bombs that have named and killed American soldiers
Speaker 1: and marines. And to me, that's something that's not cool,
Speaker 1: and it's not cool for the Army to say that.
Speaker 1: Immediately The next day is the next day the Army
Speaker 1: was saying these guys were civilians. And you can't anybody
Speaker 1: that has any experience with the military and the militaries
Speaker 1: investigative processes and so on and so forth. You know,
Speaker 1: flat out the military doesn't get much done in terms
Speaker 1: of investigating and paperwork and all this stuff in twenty
Speaker 1: four hours. It just does not happen. Right, There's so
Speaker 1: many you know, seen Robster's butts that have to be
Speaker 1: kissed before you know it can actually get down with
Speaker 1: the meat and potatoes off. Actually what happened. And so
Speaker 1: the way that uh, you characterize that, I think is
Speaker 1: extremely important. Um, because here we have let me just
Speaker 1: be very you know, clear and concise. Um, here we
Speaker 1: have an American unit, my unit that engaged with Taliban members,
Speaker 1: members of the Taliban who had American blood on their hands.
Speaker 1: We killed those Taliban and within twenty four hours, my
Speaker 1: own chain of command, the American Army chain of command,
Speaker 1: charged me and some of my men with murder of civilians.
Speaker 1: Now to just let that sink in, Right, So I
Speaker 1: was sent to Fort Leavenworth for quote unquote murdering civilians, right,
Speaker 1: And you know, granted I didn't uh pull the trigger.
Speaker 1: I didn't ever even use my weapon. I did use
Speaker 1: my radio, you know. But look, I'm not ever gonna
Speaker 1: try to put the blame on the soldiers who served
Speaker 1: under me for seven or two hours. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to do that because they were serving under my command.
Speaker 1: It was my responsibility. And the only thing I said
Speaker 1: in my court martial was that I take full responsibility
Speaker 1: for the actions of my bed under my command, because
Speaker 1: that's the way it should be. Well, I was the
Speaker 1: only officer there. So if anybody is going to prison,
Speaker 1: and I've said this a million times, and I said this.
Speaker 1: My lawyers hate it when I say this, but if
Speaker 1: I'm gonna if anybody's gonna go to prison, it's gonna
Speaker 1: be me. And so you know who the the the army,
Speaker 1: um said bet and sent me to prison for tween years. Um.
Speaker 1: So um, you know, there there are so many different
Speaker 1: things that went wrong, um in my uh court martial,
Speaker 1: and but you know, and one of the things that
Speaker 1: I write about in the book. And I think this
Speaker 1: really shocked me. Was the first day of my court martial.
Speaker 1: The first day, Um, there was an Army captain who
Speaker 1: came up to me and I've never seen this guy before.
Speaker 1: They come up to me and he said, hey, Clent,
Speaker 1: I need to get your PP sizes. And you know
Speaker 1: that was back when we still had the gray and
Speaker 1: black poteas. And uh, I'm like, well, why, you know,
Speaker 1: why do you need about pts? And he's like, well,
Speaker 1: because when you get transferred to Fort Leavenworth, you're gonna
Speaker 1: be in T T s now. Listen. This was on
Speaker 1: the first day. We hadn't even started the court martial yet, right,
Speaker 1: So before we even start at the court martial, the
Speaker 1: Army had sent somebody. The Chance of Command had sent
Speaker 1: somebody over to get my PP sizes because they had
Speaker 1: already determined that I was going to Fort Leavenworth. Now,
Speaker 1: I think it's very important that you your listeners understand, um,
Speaker 1: because look, I've always been a law and order type guy,
Speaker 1: right I I you know, I'm a thin blue line
Speaker 1: type guy. I support the police. I love the police.
Speaker 1: You know, I said I'm going to law school for
Speaker 1: God's for God's sake, I completely understand and support law
Speaker 1: and order and pre doing the right thing and following
Speaker 1: the rules. Right. That is why I'm so passionately um
Speaker 1: involved and and and advocating for change of the military
Speaker 1: justice system, because it's not a justice system. It's an
Speaker 1: administrative procedie proceeding. And you know, they they operate under
Speaker 1: the guise of the justice system. And yeah, they walk
Speaker 1: in and they wear the judge wears a black robe, um,
Speaker 1: and you know, they have prosecutors and defense attorneys, and
Speaker 1: you know they've been to law school and this, this
Speaker 1: and this. But at the end of the day, everybody
Speaker 1: works for the men and and that's the commanding general
Speaker 1: or or whatever they call the admiral that's in charge.
Speaker 1: That's the convenience order. And when whenever everybody works for
Speaker 1: the same person and everybody knows that that same person
Speaker 1: wants a certain outcome, then what do you think is
Speaker 1: gonna happen? And so you know, that's the one of
Speaker 1: the things that you know, I'm actually uh for one
Speaker 1: of my law professors right now, I'm actually writing a
Speaker 1: paper to that on on that subject, which is um,
Speaker 1: you know, there are certain things in the military justice
Speaker 1: and that that have to change. And you know, one
Speaker 1: of the key things is you've got to take it
Speaker 1: away from the commanders, the commanding generals. You've you got
Speaker 1: to take it away from these people who um. You know,
Speaker 1: if if if I Clint Lawrence, if I had stayed
Speaker 1: in the army for forty years, I would probably have
Speaker 1: been at least a pullbird colonel or a brigadier general
Speaker 1: or something. Right now, that does not qualify me too.
Speaker 1: Just determine whether or not a criminal lack has been
Speaker 1: committed or whether or not, UM, somebody needs to be
Speaker 1: sent to a criminal trial and potentially sent to prison
Speaker 1: for the rest of his or her life. That doesn't
Speaker 1: qualify them. They don't have any legal training. They may
Speaker 1: have a power point presentation here and there on you know,
Speaker 1: the commander's um. You know, responsibilities in the legal process
Speaker 1: and this isn't that. But they have been to law
Speaker 1: school for three or four years. They don't have that expertise.
Speaker 1: And so there are so many things, Steve, And the
Speaker 1: reason why I'm advocating so passionately for this is because
Speaker 1: I actually went through it and I saw it. You know,
Speaker 1: we it's kind of like when you open up that
Speaker 1: closet underneath the stairwell and you shine a flashlot in there,
Speaker 1: and and you see all this craftsmen in there forever
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, this ain't right. Somebody's going to
Speaker 1: clean this up. Well, that's the same thing that has
Speaker 1: to happen in the military justice system. It's got to
Speaker 1: be cleaned up, and it's got to be brought to
Speaker 1: the same level as the federal court system. And it's
Speaker 1: nowhere near that right now, right now, Steve, what the
Speaker 1: military justice system is right now is the same one
Speaker 1: they have in North Korea, and the same one they
Speaker 1: have in Russia, and the same one they have in China,
Speaker 1: and all these places that that you know, Venezuela, all
Speaker 1: these places that we think are terrible places with you know,
Speaker 1: without the rule of law, were the same thing that's
Speaker 1: happening to men and women who wear the uniform of
Speaker 1: the world's greatest military. And that's something that I don't
Speaker 1: think we can we can abide by. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's that's something that we can allow to happen for
Speaker 1: any longer. Exactly. And you know, in your book, when
Speaker 1: you talked about that incident with the Captain and your PTS.
Speaker 1: I I when back and I reread that and I
Speaker 1: was like that, I just read that, and I had
Speaker 1: to read it again. And it was amazing because this
Speaker 1: was again before opening arguments had even been made for
Speaker 1: your for your for your court martial. They're they're already
Speaker 1: sending you to Fort loving Worth. I mean, they made
Speaker 1: that abundantly clear. And then the judge you know, asked,
Speaker 1: if oh, I have a soccer game to go do
Speaker 1: can we get this trial over with? And I remember thinking, oh, then,
Speaker 1: you know, if if I'm sitting in urs here, I
Speaker 1: would automatically think the worst because obviously that the the
Speaker 1: die was already cast here. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's important to uh, for our listeners to understand the
Speaker 1: reason behind all this was because the Afghans were getting
Speaker 1: very sensitive to what they considered civilians being killed by
Speaker 1: the U. S. Mil terry, especially President cars I, and
Speaker 1: the attitude in Washington from the very top at the
Speaker 1: President's desk at that time came down through the military.
Speaker 1: They weren't going to, you know, put up with any
Speaker 1: of this. So if anyone was accused of that, they
Speaker 1: were going to throw them right under the bus. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's absolutely right. And you know, political correctness, um, when
Speaker 1: it takes root in the military, um, it does something
Speaker 1: real special because you have a lot of senior officers
Speaker 1: who want to get promoted to general and so they
Speaker 1: do everything they possibly can to make their commander happy.
Speaker 1: And so if that includes under President Obama, that included
Speaker 1: being politically correct, and that is that that's where they
Speaker 1: took our military and and that's why you have situations
Speaker 1: like Bengali happening where you had these barrel chested freedom
Speaker 1: fighters who were ready to go. They were sitting on
Speaker 1: Gane waiting on oh, but they it and go because
Speaker 1: they had a weak stomach, a weak need. President and
Speaker 1: and and people that work for him and President Obama
Speaker 1: that would not allow them to do their jobs. And
Speaker 1: and it's just absolutely sickening. And I think people are
Speaker 1: tired of it. But the problem is is the the
Speaker 1: attention span of the American people is not very long.
Speaker 1: So uh, you know, that's you know, one of the
Speaker 1: reasons I think that your podcast is so important and
Speaker 1: and that what that what you guys do is so
Speaker 1: important is you gotta keep burning this stuff up or
Speaker 1: else people are gonna move on to something else and
Speaker 1: they're gonna forget. Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead. Well, the
Speaker 1: next thing, you know, my son or my daughter is
Speaker 1: gonna be uh, you know, subject to the same U
Speaker 1: C m J that I was subject to. That I
Speaker 1: don't want that to happen. I want my my kids
Speaker 1: to be able to grow up and and join the
Speaker 1: military if they want to. I want them, you know,
Speaker 1: hopefully want of them to join the Space Force, right.
Speaker 1: I want them to be able to, uh, to serve
Speaker 1: their country just like I did, and to be proud
Speaker 1: of that and and to be um, you know, to
Speaker 1: to to serve their long line and to join the
Speaker 1: long line of great Americans that have put that uniform on.
Speaker 1: But I would be afraid to send them to the
Speaker 1: military Steve under these conditions. And I'm telling you you know, uh,
Speaker 1: it's if you haven't if you haven't interfaced with the
Speaker 1: military justice system, if you haven't had any contact with
Speaker 1: the military justice system, good on you, good for you, right,
Speaker 1: But the second you do, you're gonna wish you never
Speaker 1: had joined the military. And I'll tell you it's, uh,
Speaker 1: it's if you're a bad soldier, if you're a bad actor,
Speaker 1: then yeah, you deserve to to, you know, to get
Speaker 1: slapped down and to be punished. But that's not what
Speaker 1: has happening exclusively in the military these days. You've got
Speaker 1: good people. There are good men sitting in Fort leven
Speaker 1: Worth Prison right now. I can think of their names. First,
Speaker 1: Stargeant John Hatley is one of them. You know, are
Speaker 1: good men sitting in for leven With prison right now
Speaker 1: because of President Obama. And you know, it's it's the
Speaker 1: reason why I fight. And it's just one of the
Speaker 1: think you know, everybody should be up and arms about it.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing, Steve. If if they're not African American,
Speaker 1: if they're not a Black Lives Matter type, you know,
Speaker 1: socialist nonsense, all that nonsense, then nobody cares about them
Speaker 1: if they're in prison wrongfully. And I said this on
Speaker 1: a radio show in Chicago, and that they just about
Speaker 1: booed me off the air. Was was look, just because
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a I'm a white male who who was
Speaker 1: in who was who was in the military, and got
Speaker 1: sent to a military prison because of some politically correct
Speaker 1: nonsense that came out of the Obama administration, then none
Speaker 1: of the uh, none of the a c o U
Speaker 1: type people who are always you know, chomp about the
Speaker 1: bits and and and and yelling and screaming all the
Speaker 1: time about letting people out of prison. And this is
Speaker 1: not none of them. People were anywhere to be found,
Speaker 1: none of them. And so you know, it took a
Speaker 1: president like President Trump getting elected and and as soon
Speaker 1: as somebody told him about it, you know, he did
Speaker 1: his homework on it. But but as soon as they
Speaker 1: told him about it, he started looking at it. But
Speaker 1: he's one guy, and he's got plenty of other fights
Speaker 1: to fight. And so I think that, you know, the
Speaker 1: reason I wrote this book, and the reason I think
Speaker 1: it's so important for people like you to keep speaking
Speaker 1: out is because these things are happening. And just because
Speaker 1: the Washington Post and the New York Times and the
Speaker 1: mainstream media are not covering it or don't care to
Speaker 1: cover it, nobody cares about it. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: there are just so many people who only believe what
Speaker 1: they read or see in the mainstream media. And I
Speaker 1: feel sorry for those kind of people because there's so
Speaker 1: much stuff happening in the dark in this country that
Speaker 1: that needs to be we need to shine a light on.
Speaker 1: And that's the reason why I wrote this book, and
Speaker 1: that's the reason why I I appreciate so much you're
Speaker 1: bringing me on here well and and see that that
Speaker 1: was the whole point is because okay, even if you
Speaker 1: know the Afghans complain that civilians were killed, the army
Speaker 1: does an investigation. Okay, do an investigation, but do a
Speaker 1: real one. So you know, they never they never actually
Speaker 1: interviewed you. They only interviewed the soldiers that served under
Speaker 1: view and from what I read, I got a uh
Speaker 1: something from your lawyer. Basically they they threatened all of
Speaker 1: them with U C m J and court martialed themselves
Speaker 1: unless they made a statement, which kind of leads you
Speaker 1: to believe that you know, they separated you from them,
Speaker 1: and they basically said it's either you or those guys.
Speaker 1: So they kind of put that right in there. They
Speaker 1: blocked out the uh you know, the identities of the
Speaker 1: Afghan bomb makers. They got a statement from the lieuten
Speaker 1: it that your replaced it was, you know, severely wounded
Speaker 1: by an I E ed. And you know they lined
Speaker 1: out the areas that you know, uh where he talked
Speaker 1: about you know, he would never let a motorcycle in
Speaker 1: close proximity to his his his unit, which was your
Speaker 1: platoon because of how they operate. And this is a
Speaker 1: guy that I believe he lost an eye over this.
Speaker 1: And then you know, there was another there was an
Speaker 1: Army signac report that said that your platoon is being
Speaker 1: scouted for an impending tack uh an impending attack. And
Speaker 1: then there was another individual later on who I mean
Speaker 1: there was I believed they had satellite or maybe it
Speaker 1: was a drone up above, and he reported that watching
Speaker 1: the Afghan motorcycle drivers, that your platoon is being cited
Speaker 1: for an ambush. And they the Army had all of
Speaker 1: that MATI aerial, they had all of that evidence, and
Speaker 1: they blocked it from your defense. And that's the kind
Speaker 1: of thing that can't ever happen to us. As you said,
Speaker 1: this is stuff that happens in North Korea, not in
Speaker 1: North Carolina. And it was shocking to read all this.
Speaker 1: That's why we were felt so strongly about it. Obviously
Speaker 1: we didn't go through what you did, but you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's uh, this whole you know, court martials should
Speaker 1: have never taken place. And you know, if they had
Speaker 1: just done an investigation like they claimed they were doing,
Speaker 1: it would have never happened. Yeah, and Steven, I think
Speaker 1: you know, I just I've been writing some points down
Speaker 1: as you've been talking. You've really done your homework. I
Speaker 1: appreciate that. It's really rare to have somebody do to
Speaker 1: homework these days. They usually just read whatever the title
Speaker 1: of the article is from the New York Times, and
Speaker 1: then they just believe it because it's gospel, right, it's
Speaker 1: the liberals say it's true, it must be true. So
Speaker 1: what what you said? They blocked it from blocked all
Speaker 1: that evidence from my defense council, which is true. That's
Speaker 1: that's what's called a brave violation in legal terms. But
Speaker 1: they also blocked it from the jury. So the the
Speaker 1: majors and lieutenant colonel and colonel that the ones that
Speaker 1: were sitting on the jury panel, you know, half half
Speaker 1: of more sleep half the time. To be honest with you,
Speaker 1: they already knew what they were gonna rule, so they
Speaker 1: blocked all that information from the jury though, so the
Speaker 1: jury never heard any of that information. So you know,
Speaker 1: how do you think they felt about me? And and
Speaker 1: you know they're here and all this one side and
Speaker 1: stuff and makes me look like some kind of maniac.
Speaker 1: But and another thing, i'd like to One of the
Speaker 1: things you brought up, and I appreciate you bringing that up,
Speaker 1: is this intel of the guys, the guy that was
Speaker 1: in charge of the blimp, that he was the blimp
Speaker 1: oper reader and he had all the he had the camera,
Speaker 1: the footage literally watching these Taliban operatives as they are
Speaker 1: putting there. They're setting in a crude ambush around our position.
Speaker 1: Now look, full disclosure, I did not know that because
Speaker 1: I couldn't see them. I didn't know that was happening
Speaker 1: at the time. Um. The Afghan Army sergeant that was there, Um,
Speaker 1: he came up to me at a certain point and
Speaker 1: I say this in the book. He came up to
Speaker 1: me a certain point and he was like, sir, we
Speaker 1: gotta go right now. And I'm like, well, why, you
Speaker 1: know what what's wrong? And he was this is you know,
Speaker 1: we were already at the end of the objective. We
Speaker 1: had already clear through the objective. We're already done, and
Speaker 1: we were kind of just hanging out. But that the
Speaker 1: sergeant cames up to me and he's like, we gotta go.
Speaker 1: He's like the Taliban they're coming. So you know, I
Speaker 1: look around and and you know it's the conditions are
Speaker 1: We've already achieved everything with that we were sent out
Speaker 1: there to achieve. So I'm like, all right, well let's
Speaker 1: go um. And so you know that, I think that
Speaker 1: kind of verifies what you know, Mr Hubrew was saying.
Speaker 1: The guy that had the camera footage of them putting
Speaker 1: in the Taliban putting in the uh the ambush, setting
Speaker 1: in the ambush. Now, look, I'll take on the Taliban
Speaker 1: head to head any day, right, But at the fact
Speaker 1: of the matter is that when you're fighting with one
Speaker 1: hand behind your back like we were in the Obama administration,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna put my men in harm's way unnecessarily.
Speaker 1: So look, and Steve, if I can just address one
Speaker 1: more thing that that the Washington Post isn't just ridiculous.
Speaker 1: They just they just did an article and they you know,
Speaker 1: they have decided, you know that the bottom of the
Speaker 1: barrel uh in that platoon. Um that they found about
Speaker 1: the bottom of the barrel of that platoon, And anybody
Speaker 1: that served in the military can look at the character
Speaker 1: of the guys who who interviewed with the Washington Post
Speaker 1: and they can tell what kind of soldiers they were.
Speaker 1: Very quickly and I've been very reticent to uh and
Speaker 1: very reluctant to ever say anything bad about those soldiers
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, they were just
Speaker 1: as much uh screwed over by the army as I was.
Speaker 1: Because you said just now, Steve, that that you know,
Speaker 1: the army threatened them with prosecution as well, that's very true.
Speaker 1: They actually worked up charge sheets for murder for a
Speaker 1: couple of those guys, right, So know, they charged me
Speaker 1: with murder, They charged me with all kinds of nonsense.
Speaker 1: They charged me with using harsh language toward Afghans, which
Speaker 1: I kind of laughed at, you know, but so you know,
Speaker 1: but here's the thing, right, so it was very true
Speaker 1: what you just said. So they brought all of those
Speaker 1: soldiers that I had known for seventy two hours. They
Speaker 1: were complete strangers to me seventy two hours ago. I
Speaker 1: knew these guys for three days. They brought these soldiers
Speaker 1: into to the a tent and they put them all
Speaker 1: around this big table, this series of tables, and they
Speaker 1: they told them all, they said, they gave them all
Speaker 1: to one statements twenty threes and they said you're all
Speaker 1: you all gonna write Swimer sweet and start right now.
Speaker 1: I was the only person not in that room, So
Speaker 1: what do you think happened? They all got on the
Speaker 1: same page, quite literally, And that's something you know, I
Speaker 1: kind of write more detailed in my book about. So
Speaker 1: you know, those guys, they didn't know me. I had
Speaker 1: been there for three days, for seventy two hours, and
Speaker 1: now the Washington Post wants to come out and try
Speaker 1: to make me look like a bad person because I
Speaker 1: told Sean Hannity that I don't even remember most of
Speaker 1: their names. But look, see, I would challenge anybody anybody too.
Speaker 1: In the military, you meet a lot of people, right,
Speaker 1: So I would challenge anybody to go to go back
Speaker 1: in their memory and to to rewind eight years, To
Speaker 1: go back eight years and remember the names of four
Speaker 1: men that you met for three days eight years ago.
Speaker 1: It's almost impossible. And let's act serve with It's not
Speaker 1: gonna happen. So unlet's actually serve with these people for
Speaker 1: more than three days. You're not gonna remember all of them.
Speaker 1: You're just not right. I just to be completely completely
Speaker 1: honest with you, They're not that. They were not that
Speaker 1: memorable of people to me. And I know that's unpoable.
Speaker 1: That that's unpopular for me to say, but anybody that's
Speaker 1: gonna turn on one of his brothers is not that
Speaker 1: memorable of a person to me, And so to to
Speaker 1: to put this a different way, And I write about
Speaker 1: this in the book too, and I'm kind of the
Speaker 1: gloves are kind of coming off at this point because
Speaker 1: I'm sick and tired of dealing with the Washington Post
Speaker 1: and the New York Times going over and tampering those guys,
Speaker 1: those crappy soldiers and trying to make them feel like
Speaker 1: they're war heroes. And by the way, I can't stand
Speaker 1: it in anyway he tries to call me that. Right,
Speaker 1: I'm just a normal guy who was putting a really
Speaker 1: crappy situation, and I found a better way to deal
Speaker 1: with it, which is not to turn on my my
Speaker 1: brothers and sisters. So but at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: what we have to look at here is there is
Speaker 1: a that that narrative that was started with the Obama administration,
Speaker 1: who are liberals, allies the Washington Post in the New
Speaker 1: York Times, they continue to this day to try to
Speaker 1: make me look like some kind of you know, crazy,
Speaker 1: wild haired war criminal. And they called me that as
Speaker 1: much as they possibly can, and you know, I try
Speaker 1: to ignore it as much as I possibly can. But
Speaker 1: here's the thing. What these these soldiers, these few soldiers,
Speaker 1: this is this is the last point I'll make. I'm you,
Speaker 1: as you can tell, I'm kind of passionate about this stuff.
Speaker 1: These soldiers who continually emails and New York Times and
Speaker 1: the Washington Post and all the liberal media they can
Speaker 1: possibly get to listen to them. They were several of
Speaker 1: them there, and granted there's only a handful of that
Speaker 1: platoon that has even cooperated with the press at all.
Speaker 1: Most of them, most of the forty guys of the
Speaker 1: platoon said no, I don't, I don't want anything to
Speaker 1: do with this, right because maybe they have a little
Speaker 1: bit of a shred of loyalty uh left in their bodies.
Speaker 1: But there's a few of them that and and it's
Speaker 1: just amazing to me. A couple of these guys were
Speaker 1: not even there. They were not even on that patrol.
Speaker 1: And so what I was saying on Sean Hannity was
Speaker 1: was that specifically, I don't remember their names because they
Speaker 1: weren't even there. So, you know, eight years later, they
Speaker 1: come out on this Washington Post YouTube video, and I'm
Speaker 1: looking at it and I'm like, who in the hell
Speaker 1: are you. I've never seen you before. And so just
Speaker 1: just because you just right, so, just because you were
Speaker 1: on paper assigned to that platoon doesn't give you the
Speaker 1: right to be an expert in what happened there because
Speaker 1: you weren't there. And so I look at it and so,
Speaker 1: but the Washington Post doesn't care about that because they
Speaker 1: can use me, Clint Lawrence, to make President Donald Trump
Speaker 1: look bad. So that's what they're gonna do. And so
Speaker 1: that's what they're continuing to do. And so and the
Speaker 1: last thing I'll say here is, Steve is I've gotten
Speaker 1: over the last eight years, Since two thousands twelve, I've
Speaker 1: gotten thousands, tens of thousands of letters and messages from
Speaker 1: people in the military and members of police departments around
Speaker 1: the world. There there are even military folks in the
Speaker 1: little tiny country of Cyprus who are have been writing
Speaker 1: to me and given me their support. They all support me,
Speaker 1: and they all say the same thing, this is bullshit.
Speaker 1: The guys that turned on you were cowards. Right the
Speaker 1: police officers and YPP police officers right to me and
Speaker 1: send me a little tiny police badges and send me
Speaker 1: all kinds of like baseball caps and everything else, telling
Speaker 1: me the same exact thing. Those guys were cowards. They
Speaker 1: don't understand brotherhood. But Steve, there's a tiny little a
Speaker 1: tiny little bit of people and I can count on
Speaker 1: probably uh both hands and both the the amount of
Speaker 1: people who have UH sent me messages that are not supportive,
Speaker 1: that are saying sent things along the lines of, UM,
Speaker 1: you're a coward, war criminal. This isn't that. And one
Speaker 1: of them I responded to, just one. It was. It
Speaker 1: was a girl who sent to me a message and UM,
Speaker 1: I wasn't doing anything at that moment, so I replied
Speaker 1: to her and UM, I asked her some details about
Speaker 1: the cases. She was like, well, I don't really know
Speaker 1: anything about the case. I just know that I read
Speaker 1: I read the title. She didn't even read the Washington
Speaker 1: Post article. She read the title of the article and
Speaker 1: then decided that I was a war criminal. So that's
Speaker 1: what I'm dealing with. That's what I deal with in
Speaker 1: my daily life. And so you know, I talked about
Speaker 1: this a lot more in detailed about the nonsense that
Speaker 1: I'm still dealing with um in the book. But you know,
Speaker 1: I'll just say that, and yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't
Speaker 1: mean interrupt. The book is released, I believe September, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And and Steve, there's just there's a lot more at
Speaker 1: play here then law and order than A and B
Speaker 1: led to see. There's a lot more than black and
Speaker 1: white here, right, There's a lot more going on here.
Speaker 1: And so that's one of the things the reasons why
Speaker 1: I wanted to write this book. And I really appreciate
Speaker 1: you you actually caring about this. Well, we, like I said,
Speaker 1: when we learned about what was actually behind the scenes
Speaker 1: going on because we were following the the case through
Speaker 1: your lawyers, That's why we felt so strongly. But we
Speaker 1: wrote a bunch of articles on this and we try
Speaker 1: to bring attention to it because again I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: back to the battalion sergeant major. I mean, I look
Speaker 1: at you know, this is n c O with career
Speaker 1: military probably years to become Italian sergeant major. And he says, clearly,
Speaker 1: the division commander, the brigade commander, and the squadron commander
Speaker 1: aren't gonna take responsibility. The chain of command failed this
Speaker 1: young man. They used him as a scapegoat at a
Speaker 1: time in Afghanistan when the commanding general in country was
Speaker 1: looking to hold someone accountable because of other civilian casualties
Speaker 1: that occurred in other locations. And I think that hits
Speaker 1: it right on the head. And uh so, I know
Speaker 1: we're kind of running short on time because you have
Speaker 1: things you have to do, but I just wanted to
Speaker 1: touch on you. You went to you went to Fort Leavenworth,
Speaker 1: You did six years behind bars there. We won't get
Speaker 1: into all that right now because we're kind of short
Speaker 1: on time, but tell me the failing when you actually learned,
Speaker 1: and tell our listeners a little bit about the phone
Speaker 1: call you received when you found out you were going
Speaker 1: to be part I'll just say this, Uh you know,
Speaker 1: so life, you know, they have a lot of these
Speaker 1: little things that I can't stand up when people use
Speaker 1: these little sayings, but this one really applies. Life is
Speaker 1: what you make it. Right. So, when I got to
Speaker 1: Fort Leavenworth, I i i I realized that I was standing
Speaker 1: up against a a solid concrete wall, and I knew
Speaker 1: that I could deal with it in one of two ways.
Speaker 1: I could stand there and feel sorry for myself, or
Speaker 1: I could do everything I can to get through that wall.
Speaker 1: And so that is I took the second one and
Speaker 1: I got through that wall. But but look, so here's
Speaker 1: here's the crux of the issue. There are so many
Speaker 1: Americans out there who voted for President Trump, and there
Speaker 1: are some on the left. One of my biggest UM supporters, Uh,
Speaker 1: while I was in Fort Leavenworth fought for me like crazy,
Speaker 1: was a former Air Force criminal investigator who was a
Speaker 1: hardcore Democrat. UM. And you know, she just she saw
Speaker 1: what was ang and uh, she write she did her homework,
Speaker 1: which is I think the discriminator. You gotta do your homework.
Speaker 1: If you don't do the homework, then you then you're
Speaker 1: left just believe whatever the New York Times says. Right,
Speaker 1: So if you do your homework, you see something's wrong. So, UM,
Speaker 1: I had those people to bring me through Fort Leavenworth.
Speaker 1: There were so many thousands of people who wrote to
Speaker 1: me over the years and kept me going, and I
Speaker 1: write about them a lot in the book, about the
Speaker 1: specific ones who really motivated me. And so you know,
Speaker 1: when I when I President Trump got elected, I knew
Speaker 1: that President Trump was somebody who really don't give a
Speaker 1: hoot about um what the mainstream media says about him. UM.
Speaker 1: And he doesn't really care about Uh, he'll he'll ruffle
Speaker 1: feathers if if, if it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: And so I knew the moment that he got elected,
Speaker 1: I went and told one of my friends there, Uh,
Speaker 1: we were talking about it, and he said, don't don't
Speaker 1: you think President Trump is a good thing for for you?
Speaker 1: And I said, uh, well, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: And he was like, well, are you serious. President Trump
Speaker 1: is gonna get you out of here. Man, I know
Speaker 1: he is. And so that's what really kind of got me,
Speaker 1: you know, all thinking along those lines. And I started
Speaker 1: paying closer attention to the President and what he was
Speaker 1: saying and so on and so forth, and I was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, this guy is gonna do something. He
Speaker 1: is And so we we tried to um focus our campaign,
Speaker 1: uh you know, my my freedom campaign on on trying
Speaker 1: to get my case in front of the president. And
Speaker 1: once we finally did achieve that, um, the President saw
Speaker 1: it and he did his homework. And you know a
Speaker 1: lot of people say things about the President. They say
Speaker 1: that he's you know, doesn't pay close attention, he doesn't
Speaker 1: like details. That's wrong, It's absolutely wrong. I've met him
Speaker 1: twice the man cares about people, and that is what
Speaker 1: he lives his life by. He cares about the little guy.
Speaker 1: And um, he definitely cares about people that the Democrats
Speaker 1: don't care about because he sees that. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: talking to him on the phone, UM, I was just
Speaker 1: sitting in my prison cell on some men see okay,
Speaker 1: I'm and got me and said, you know, you got
Speaker 1: a phone call. And I talked about this more in detail,
Speaker 1: uh in the book, but um, you know, when I
Speaker 1: actually got on the phone with the president, UM, I got,
Speaker 1: the first impression of him was that he stops all time. Uh,
Speaker 1: and he he he blocks out everything around him when
Speaker 1: he wants to focus on one thing and one person.
Speaker 1: And he did that. It's like he it's like he
Speaker 1: posted you know, I'm not saying he did this, but
Speaker 1: this is what it seemed like. It's like he posted
Speaker 1: secret Service agents at his office door when he was
Speaker 1: on the phone with me and said, don't let anybody in.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm making a phone call. And so there was
Speaker 1: no interruption. It was like I had his full and
Speaker 1: undivided attention, and I could not believe that the President
Speaker 1: of the United States took you know, over ten minutes
Speaker 1: of his time to do that, and at the end
Speaker 1: and he was you know throughout the whole time, and
Speaker 1: the Vice President was there and and and I just
Speaker 1: thought it was just amazing and and you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I talked about some of the fight that we had
Speaker 1: even after the President him signed the part um to
Speaker 1: to still get out because the de Pentagon was refusing
Speaker 1: to let me out. And you can read about that
Speaker 1: more in the book. But um, you know, talking to
Speaker 1: the president, uh and and being able to actually meet him,
Speaker 1: and you know, he actually invited me on stage to
Speaker 1: uh talk And luckily, I'm kind of a boy scout,
Speaker 1: so I always have something prepared, so I had to
Speaker 1: speak prepared just in case. Um, so you know, he
Speaker 1: was a he he let me have his podium for
Speaker 1: for thirteen minutes or so, um eleven or thirteen minutes,
Speaker 1: and I just thought that was amazing. And at some
Speaker 1: point I turned around and he's standing behind me back
Speaker 1: there with major that Matt Golstein, and uh, I asked him,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I I good, Mr President, Like I don't
Speaker 1: want to think and he's just like he's kind of
Speaker 1: just ways to be honest, Like yeah, I keep going
Speaker 1: kids do its side. But uh, he's just I'm telling you,
Speaker 1: he's just uh, just a good dude. He's somebody who
Speaker 1: um and I've said this before too, he kind of
Speaker 1: I think he he know and he realizes that he's
Speaker 1: the president and you're not the president, and so he
Speaker 1: wants to make you feel comfortable, um and so. And
Speaker 1: I think he does that because he wants you. He
Speaker 1: doesn't want He doesn't like people kissing his butt, which
Speaker 1: I think is why the Pentagon doesn't like him, because
Speaker 1: they have a butt kissing mentality, right, So he doesn't
Speaker 1: like it when people do that. He wants people to
Speaker 1: tell him how things actually are, and he wants people
Speaker 1: to to to drop all the fancy nonsense and tell
Speaker 1: him exactly what's going on. And I think that's something
Speaker 1: that makes him different from from any of the other presidents.
Speaker 1: They want to hear all the fancy nonsense. Well, I
Speaker 1: think that hits it right on the head. And I
Speaker 1: know you have something you have to do this afternoon,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna have to Unfortunately we have to cut
Speaker 1: this short. But we want to once again thank you
Speaker 1: for joining us, and we encourage all our listeners and
Speaker 1: readers out there for soft Rap UH by Clint's books
Speaker 1: that's coming out. It'll be out in September. We were
Speaker 1: lucky enough to get an advanced copy of it so
Speaker 1: we could talk about it here on the podcast. It
Speaker 1: will be a quick page turning for you, folks, because
Speaker 1: once you start reading it, you won't want to put
Speaker 1: it down. And there's a lot of things in there
Speaker 1: that are going to be very uncomfortable. I'll just leave
Speaker 1: it at that, and you've heard some of them. We've
Speaker 1: we've kind of glossed over some of the stuff today
Speaker 1: just because of the time shortage. But Clint, we're so
Speaker 1: glad from all of us here at soft Rap that
Speaker 1: we're talking to you now as a freeman and you're
Speaker 1: able to get back to your life and you know, uh,
Speaker 1: you're you're now in law school. We wish you all
Speaker 1: the best and thank you once again for joining us. Uh.
Speaker 1: We would love to do this again with you some
Speaker 1: other time. Sure, Thank you, Steve. It was great to
Speaker 1: be on with you, and I'll be around if you
Speaker 1: ever want to talk again for sure. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: good luck in uh in law school. I know that
Speaker 1: won't be easy. Um, that's that's beyond some of us
Speaker 1: who are sitting here right now, that's beyond my scope
Speaker 1: of things. So uh, I wish you all the luck
Speaker 1: with that. Um but you know I and I wish
Speaker 1: you all the luck with the book coming out. I
Speaker 1: think it's something people need to read. It's something people
Speaker 1: need to know about because, um, it should have never
Speaker 1: ever happened. And uh, well, I agree with you. We're
Speaker 1: gonna fix it, man, And I think the first the
Speaker 1: first step to warn fixing it is to get people
Speaker 1: to read that so they don't know what's what's actually happening.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate you having me on. Okay, well, thanks again,
Speaker 1: and uh we'll we'll be obviously talking again in the future.
Speaker 1: But from all of us here, it's Software Bradio, myself,
Speaker 1: Steve al Jeri, our guest Clint Lawrence. Thank you all
Speaker 1: for listening. Uh, Software Bradio on Time on Target. We'll
Speaker 1: be back with another podcast real soon, The Little Anning
Speaker 1: to Self Red Radia