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Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military news and straight
Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community and everyone. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to Software Radio, Software Radio, on Time, on Target.
Speaker 1: We're here with another superb podcast. We have a great
Speaker 1: guest with this today we're gonna be talking with the
Speaker 1: former Air Force fighter Pilo Dan Hampton. He's also an
Speaker 1: accomplished author and we're gonna be talking with him about
Speaker 1: his most recent book that's coming out I Believe in
Speaker 1: September um and it's all Operations Vengeance. It's about the militaries,
Speaker 1: basic assassination attempt on Adramal Yamamoto and World War Two.
Speaker 1: It is a fantastic read. We're gonna be talking all
Speaker 1: about that. But first we want to welcome Dancing August
Speaker 1: and thank you for taking the time, uh and joining
Speaker 1: us here on Software Radio. And uh. I hope everything's
Speaker 1: going both way out there. You know, I'm dodging thunderstorms
Speaker 1: out here on top of the mountains. But it's a
Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to to speak with you today and
Speaker 1: I appreciate the the opportunity. The book comes out actually
Speaker 1: next week, not September, so don't wait till September to
Speaker 1: buy it. Oh okay, well I must ad yours book
Speaker 1: confused with somebody else's. But yeah, okay, folks, I stand
Speaker 1: corrected on that. It comes out next week, so look
Speaker 1: from that everywhere. I think you can buy an advanced
Speaker 1: copy of that on Amazon dot com. We were lucky
Speaker 1: enough to and you were kind of to share an
Speaker 1: advanced copy with us. And I can tell all of
Speaker 1: our listeners out there and readers, this is has to
Speaker 1: be one of those must read books if you're a
Speaker 1: military history buff, is one that you have to read.
Speaker 1: But we're gonna get to that in just a bit
Speaker 1: because we're going to talk to your real briefly about
Speaker 1: your your military career. You were forced fight a pilot,
Speaker 1: um hundred from what I read about you, A hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty one combat mentions, and um, yeah that's true.
Speaker 1: I I flew for twenty years and one day. Um.
Speaker 1: I enjoyed it very much. I was I was happy
Speaker 1: to leave when I did, but I loved I loved
Speaker 1: flying fighters and and I loved you know, I love
Speaker 1: that lifestyle and and doing something that was that was
Speaker 1: important and getting to see the world a little bit,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I had I had a great time. So
Speaker 1: you know, where was your first duty station. I went
Speaker 1: to Germany right at the very end of the Cold War,
Speaker 1: I think. I think the Soviet Union hung on for
Speaker 1: a year after I got there, So you know, we
Speaker 1: went there expecting to to fight the Russian hordes in
Speaker 1: the Folder Gap. And and I was a bachelor at
Speaker 1: the time. I could get everything I owned in my car,
Speaker 1: so it was it was. It was great fun. It
Speaker 1: was a great time to be there. And then the
Speaker 1: First Gulf War rolled around and and we all got
Speaker 1: sent somewhere none of us had ever heard of. But
Speaker 1: for a couple of years, I had a great time
Speaker 1: in Germany. You know, I can imagine because if you're
Speaker 1: a single bad station in Germany and your fighter pilot,
Speaker 1: I imagine there was plenty of what's saying it distractions
Speaker 1: out there for you, Targets of opportunity. Yeah, there there
Speaker 1: were that. And this one was a rich environment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this was before political correctness saturated the military. So it
Speaker 1: was a lot of my disposable income went to a
Speaker 1: Porsche and traveling. So I had a I had a
Speaker 1: really good time. That changed very rapidly, but I have
Speaker 1: fond memories of it. Oh yeah, we all do. And yeah,
Speaker 1: now when you were in and the first go for
Speaker 1: were you flying like us, hunting for system or will
Speaker 1: you be building brown stuff for strictly air? No, we were.
Speaker 1: We were wild weasels out of spang Do the tactical
Speaker 1: fighter wing. So our job was to go out and
Speaker 1: pick fights with anti aircraft guns and surfaced air missiles
Speaker 1: and get them to reveal where they were by shooting
Speaker 1: at us, and if we survived, then we'd go and
Speaker 1: kill them so they didn't bother anybody else. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of fun. Well, I remember seeing that, you know,
Speaker 1: all the stuff, because during that time we were still
Speaker 1: cleaning up the mess from the winter before in Panama
Speaker 1: and that's where I was stationed. So uh, we were done,
Speaker 1: and we were watching all this on the news every
Speaker 1: night when we get home. But you guys were doing
Speaker 1: over there in the desert. And I don't know how
Speaker 1: sophisticated their ni aircraft systems were, but it seems like
Speaker 1: they have a slew up. Yeah, they had a lot.
Speaker 1: The French of course, had sold them everything they had
Speaker 1: and put together a pretty decent system and then most
Speaker 1: of the missiles came from the Soviet Union. Um, so
Speaker 1: it was interesting in that we've been studying these and
Speaker 1: training to fight against them, and we actually did. But
Speaker 1: you know, they obviously weren't manned by Russian guys. They were, well,
Speaker 1: most of them weren't. They were manned by Iraqis using
Speaker 1: a French system, So how much worse could he get
Speaker 1: for them? Right? Anyway, they didn't last very long, so
Speaker 1: no worries. Yeah, well, it seemed like after the first
Speaker 1: few days they're there, triplate system was basically put out
Speaker 1: a service. Yeah, there's Sam's, the radars, the Triple A,
Speaker 1: and they realized they weren't going to be able to
Speaker 1: to fight us, so they quit using it because every
Speaker 1: time they used it, you know, we'd we'd whack it,
Speaker 1: and they wanted to have something left for after the war.
Speaker 1: Was the same thing with their with their fighters. You
Speaker 1: know when when you were in the military, you know
Speaker 1: when when a bunch of guys go out on a
Speaker 1: morning mission and don't come back, that's sort of a
Speaker 1: downer from morale, right, And that's what was happening to
Speaker 1: the Rocky Air Force. Every time guys would take off
Speaker 1: they'd never come back. So the ones that were left said,
Speaker 1: we're not We're not doing this, and so we rerolled
Speaker 1: to air to ground, you know, we would do close
Speaker 1: air support and UH and and surface attack against the
Speaker 1: big targets. And that's what we did until the war ended. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember, you know, again, like we were still down
Speaker 1: in South America at the time, watching all that fold
Speaker 1: and then in the last days of the war when
Speaker 1: it seemed like they just hit the panic button and
Speaker 1: try to get out of Kuwait with everything they could.
Speaker 1: On that one highway, it just seemed like absolute as there.
Speaker 1: It was a turkey shoot we called, you know, it
Speaker 1: was called the Highway of Death for a reason. And
Speaker 1: I remember looking down at that and thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: this is you know, because they shortly thereafter they you know,
Speaker 1: we signed that armistice and and we had to let
Speaker 1: all those those guys go, and I just knew we
Speaker 1: were gonna we were going to be back, and sure
Speaker 1: enough we were. And I was there for that one too.
Speaker 1: I've always been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: About a year or two later, I was tuckled the
Speaker 1: fan pilot from the Year Force and I was asking
Speaker 1: him about that, and and he was like, if he
Speaker 1: flew down that highway, you could have dropped bombs with
Speaker 1: your or any kind of ordinance whatsoever, with a blindfold on,
Speaker 1: and you would hit something. That's how Jenda was. It
Speaker 1: was there's only one road. I think it's Highway one.
Speaker 1: It runs you know, north and south from Baghdad to Kuwait.
Speaker 1: It's the only big road there. And yeah, it was
Speaker 1: just clogged. So the sec the Second War was a
Speaker 1: lot more interesting, but the first one was it was
Speaker 1: a good introduction to it. All. Yeah, well let's uh,
Speaker 1: I know, you can go and things to do. So
Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump right into the book now, uh you know,
Speaker 1: as I as I said in the opening, this was
Speaker 1: a fascinating book. And you know I love military history,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna, you know, I eat this stuff up.
Speaker 1: But the detail that went into this it was fantastic.
Speaker 1: It's about to go on a canal campaign and what
Speaker 1: unfolds because of that. How long did this book take
Speaker 1: you to put together? It takes me about a year,
Speaker 1: uh to to write a book. And um, this one,
Speaker 1: I actually I think I turned us went in in
Speaker 1: September of last year. Yeah, it's September, so it takes
Speaker 1: another takes another almost a year then to edit it
Speaker 1: and get it into production. So each book takes about
Speaker 1: two years to do. But you know, I thoroughly enjoyed
Speaker 1: this because I was never really a World War Two historian,
Speaker 1: but my last couple of books I dealt pretty significantly
Speaker 1: with that. And as you said, you know, the more
Speaker 1: I researched it, the more I realized how central guadal
Speaker 1: Canal was to it. I mean, not only is that
Speaker 1: a great story about a big fight, but if that
Speaker 1: hadn't happened and we hadn't won that, there would have
Speaker 1: been no base to fly, firm to shoot down Yamamotos.
Speaker 1: So that's why I put so much detail in it
Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, And that was the fascinating part of
Speaker 1: the Ncipal Operation Vengeance was you know, um, if you
Speaker 1: look at everything that transpired Guada Canal, and everything seemed
Speaker 1: to be favoring the Japanese, accept the fact, and you know,
Speaker 1: they were overconfident, They were kind of arrogant, and you
Speaker 1: bring all this up. They didn't believe the Americans could
Speaker 1: stand up to them, and they made so many mistakes
Speaker 1: in this battle that cost them dearly and a lot
Speaker 1: of this I hadn't read before, especially want dealing with
Speaker 1: they're psyche. I didn't realize to the extent that how
Speaker 1: arrogant they actually were, and that really really cost them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I mean, you know yourself, you can't you can't
Speaker 1: underestimate an opponent. I mean, it's as dangerous to to
Speaker 1: overestimate one as it is to underestimate them. But they
Speaker 1: they clearly underestimated us. And you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: that is who they've been fighting. You know, they've been
Speaker 1: fighting the Russians and the Chinese, and they they've gone
Speaker 1: through them, you know, like a hot knife through butter.
Speaker 1: And the first few months fighting us because they caught
Speaker 1: us by surprise and hit us in some illequiate places
Speaker 1: like the Philippines and Wake Island and other places. They
Speaker 1: you know, they they wailed on us pretty good for
Speaker 1: a few months. But that was all that all came
Speaker 1: to an end, you know, pretty much after the Battle
Speaker 1: of Midway, and by the time we invaded Guadalcanal, you know,
Speaker 1: we were we were beginning to catch our breath and
Speaker 1: get our second wind, and industry in the United States
Speaker 1: was worth catching up to the millions of guys that
Speaker 1: were volunteering to fight. And that's exactly why Yamamoto said,
Speaker 1: you know, he flat out told his emperor that, you know,
Speaker 1: if you want me to go to war, I can
Speaker 1: run wild for six months or a year, but after that,
Speaker 1: I make no guarantees. Because he knew America, he knew us,
Speaker 1: and he knew what would happen if he didn't win quickly.
Speaker 1: And and you know, the guadal Canal campaign was was
Speaker 1: the stake in the ground. You know, that's what changed
Speaker 1: everything out there. Yeah, and you know I had read
Speaker 1: about in the past. But one of the things that
Speaker 1: you brought up with the book that I wasn't aware of.
Speaker 1: I knew we was Harvard. He lived in Cambridge, mass Um,
Speaker 1: which was about ten minutes from where I grew up,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's um. I understood all that, and
Speaker 1: he actually liked America and he liked Americans, but I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that he wanted to see our country and
Speaker 1: one summary way all the way to Texas. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that either until I got into the research.
Speaker 1: And that's one reason why I enjoyed the research so much,
Speaker 1: because I always find out how much I don't know,
Speaker 1: you know, And and I usually come out with another
Speaker 1: story idea from from the research that I do. In fact,
Speaker 1: I did from this book. I signed a contract for
Speaker 1: another book dealing with World War Two based on something
Speaker 1: I found researching this one. But yeah, Yamamoto was in
Speaker 1: America a few times Harvard, like you said, and then
Speaker 1: he was the naval lattest in Washington. Um, he hitch
Speaker 1: hiked down to Texas and saw Mexico and and he
Speaker 1: and he liked it here and he liked us. He
Speaker 1: had he had learned English as a small boy from
Speaker 1: a Christian missionary in Japan in and he you know,
Speaker 1: he didn't he wasn't in favor of war with the
Speaker 1: United States. But what people have to realize, and I
Speaker 1: know you appreciate this. You know, he was a serving
Speaker 1: military officer when his country went to war, he was
Speaker 1: going to go fight, no matter who they were going
Speaker 1: to fight, and and he was going to do his
Speaker 1: best to win. And he did. He tried his best.
Speaker 1: That's why he had to go. Yeah, and you know,
Speaker 1: he was the mastermind behind the entire Pearl Harbor thing.
Speaker 1: And you know, some of the other naval officers they
Speaker 1: you know, that was Another part of the book that
Speaker 1: I really liked was this there was such a disconnect
Speaker 1: between the naval officers and the army offices of Japan,
Speaker 1: and how they took it beyond a feud, that they
Speaker 1: actually had assassination um threats against Yamamoto, and how the
Speaker 1: army was at such a different mindset than then if
Speaker 1: you want to came to the Americans, well, and yeah,
Speaker 1: you're exactly right, and everybody the army, the army really
Speaker 1: maintained the old traditional samurai you know, psyche and mindset,
Speaker 1: so did the navy, the naval officers, but the army
Speaker 1: guys were even more into that. And then the average
Speaker 1: you know, the average army conscript was usually a farmer
Speaker 1: from some village somewhere who didn't know anything, you know,
Speaker 1: beyond his village, and he was going to do whatever
Speaker 1: he was told. And when you you know, when you
Speaker 1: have bad officers telling you to do bad stuff in
Speaker 1: that sort of environment, they're going to do it. And
Speaker 1: and fortunately for us, and this is something I also
Speaker 1: hadn't realized. The Imperial Army was always always more concerned
Speaker 1: with Russia, at least at the beginning of the war
Speaker 1: than they were with us. They thought the Pacific War
Speaker 1: would be a navy war, like you know, we primarily
Speaker 1: used the Navy and the Marines. They thought that's what
Speaker 1: they would, you know, the Japanese would do. So they
Speaker 1: were they kept a million men in in China to
Speaker 1: fight the Russians because they were always afraid they were
Speaker 1: going to have to go to war with the Russians. Again,
Speaker 1: if they had, if they had moved even a portion
Speaker 1: of those divisions into the Pacific, I mean, can you
Speaker 1: imagine what that would have meant for guadalcanalies if they
Speaker 1: put five divisions on there instead of one. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a good thing they did underestimated this. It's a
Speaker 1: good thing that they did suffer from, you know, hubrist Um.
Speaker 1: It worked out well for us and bad for them, right,
Speaker 1: and in both you talked about all this stuff. That's
Speaker 1: why again, I mean, the detail in this was really fantastic.
Speaker 1: And then you know, you talk about how the Americans
Speaker 1: broke the Japanese code, they found out where Momoto was
Speaker 1: going to make a front line visit. A lot of
Speaker 1: his officers try to talk about of it um and
Speaker 1: then the planning that went into it. And again there
Speaker 1: you learned something knew every time you read a book.
Speaker 1: I didn't never realize the level of see that was
Speaker 1: going on inside the American camp because the Army Air
Speaker 1: Corps at that time, before we had an Air force UM,
Speaker 1: they were the only people that had a fighter that
Speaker 1: had ranged long enough to go after him. And rubbed
Speaker 1: some of the marine pilots on guater Canal and especially
Speaker 1: the Navy brass the wrong way of this. Yeah, really,
Speaker 1: the Navy brass. The there were a couple of guys
Speaker 1: on guadal Canal that that didn't much like the Army
Speaker 1: pilots and a lot of that. And that's why I
Speaker 1: put so much history about guadal Canal, and I wanted
Speaker 1: people to realize, you know, we weren't one big happy
Speaker 1: family either. We had our own inner service rivalries and issues.
Speaker 1: The guadal Canal was such a hole. You know that
Speaker 1: after a while, and you know you've been in bad
Speaker 1: places after a while. That's the big equalizer, right when
Speaker 1: when you're all in the in the crap together, then
Speaker 1: the differences between you to go away and and and
Speaker 1: that's how they that's how they came to feel about
Speaker 1: about these guys. The real problem with the with the
Speaker 1: Navy was from you know, Bull Halsey, who has sort
Speaker 1: of a mixed a mixed review. I mean, obviously did
Speaker 1: a good job at Midway, but he screwed up a
Speaker 1: lot of other things. And the Yamamoto mission was was
Speaker 1: one that you know, I personally came away not thinking
Speaker 1: very highly of his reaction to all this because he
Speaker 1: was willing to let inner service rivalry get in the
Speaker 1: way of of rewarding these guys. Because these guys, two
Speaker 1: of them were written up for medals of honor and
Speaker 1: all the canceled it. You know, he wouldn't approve it. Um,
Speaker 1: So that that didn't strike me the right way. The
Speaker 1: guy that was in charge of naval aviation on Guadalcanaldo
Speaker 1: was Mark Mitchell, and he was the captain of the
Speaker 1: USS Hornet, you know, and Doolittle launched against Tokyo. Mitchell
Speaker 1: was a was a good guy and a good pilot,
Speaker 1: and everybody thought highly of him. So yeah, and then
Speaker 1: the planning that women of this um and then reading
Speaker 1: it and I'm trying to you know, I'm not a pilot.
Speaker 1: I was. I was a ground poonder. So anybody who
Speaker 1: can fly on aircraft automatically is wing a bump my
Speaker 1: carry a gun and come get me if I get
Speaker 1: shot down. It was okay with me, right, But you
Speaker 1: know what, you know, there's times when the sweetest sound
Speaker 1: you can hear is the American aircraft coming over your back.
Speaker 1: So you know, But going back to that, I thought
Speaker 1: from the from the book that John Mitchell the job
Speaker 1: he did because I know how difficult it is to
Speaker 1: navigate with the map and compass, you know, true asking
Speaker 1: to reign. This guy's going across the ocean of fifty
Speaker 1: to a hundred feet off the deck, and he had
Speaker 1: his timing down so perfectly. It was the amazing And
Speaker 1: I believed in the book they arrived within a minute
Speaker 1: beyond Momono, didn't they? Yeah? Yeah, And Mitchell is an
Speaker 1: unsung hero in my opinion, you know, because he and
Speaker 1: you got to understand, these guys are flying combat missions
Speaker 1: every day. So to them when this first came down,
Speaker 1: they didn't know initially it was Yamamoto. It was just
Speaker 1: another mission. Now Mitchell got permission to tell the pilots
Speaker 1: who they were going after because he thought it might
Speaker 1: make a difference, and it you know, maybe it did,
Speaker 1: But they were going to go they we're gonna go
Speaker 1: kill him anyway. But they didn't have a whole lot
Speaker 1: of time to do this. Mitchell was a consummate professional,
Speaker 1: you know. He he looked at the Navy's attempt at
Speaker 1: the plan and said, not, adn't gonna work. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, in the space of a couple hours, he
Speaker 1: replanned the whole thing, which which isn't really that hard
Speaker 1: to do. Um. But he had some other he had
Speaker 1: some other problems. He had to get some long range
Speaker 1: fuel tanks for his airplanes. They weren't on Guadalcanal. You know,
Speaker 1: he had to pick the he had to pick the pilots,
Speaker 1: and he had to work out all the timing. And
Speaker 1: you know he did all of that, you know, step one,
Speaker 1: two three, because he was he was so good at it.
Speaker 1: And again that's why I put so much in about
Speaker 1: the Battle for guadal Canal, because Mitchell got there in
Speaker 1: October of n you know, right kind of at the
Speaker 1: very beginning of all of that. He was he was
Speaker 1: on the island flying has got awful, you know, bell
Speaker 1: p four hundreds before they got there, all through the
Speaker 1: bad days on guadal Canal. So I thought that was
Speaker 1: an effective way to introduce people to John Mitchell and
Speaker 1: the battle. But anyway, like you said, he he had
Speaker 1: to do this, you know, four hundred and sixteen miles
Speaker 1: or so over water at fifty ft. And I gotta
Speaker 1: tell you, anybody who flies at fifty ft is not
Speaker 1: doing much other than flying, because if you look away
Speaker 1: for half a second, you're going to be in the
Speaker 1: water or hit a mountain or something. And in his case,
Speaker 1: he did it all with his wrist watch, a map
Speaker 1: and a compass, you know. And to get there when
Speaker 1: he did within a minute of Yamamoto, you know, being
Speaker 1: where he was supposed to be is phenomenal, uh pilot
Speaker 1: thing skill. And I tried to get that across to
Speaker 1: the readers. Oh, I thought that came across loud earlier
Speaker 1: because again, I mean, you know, in this state and
Speaker 1: age where we used to you know, GPS and Savollites
Speaker 1: and all that, those guys didn't have any of that. No,
Speaker 1: he didn't. He didn't have any of the cool toys
Speaker 1: I had. You know, I I wouldn't want to do
Speaker 1: that even and you know what what we had, it'd
Speaker 1: still be a challenge. And he did it without all
Speaker 1: that stuff. So yeah, my hat's always offer that guy
Speaker 1: and didn't he I thought I read in the book.
Speaker 1: Didn't the Navy put one of their compasses, like a
Speaker 1: name compassing to his aircraft so he could see it
Speaker 1: for it. Yeah, he did. You're exactly right there, he
Speaker 1: The compass in the P. Thirty eight was just you know,
Speaker 1: a piece of dog poop poop did I say poop
Speaker 1: dog crap? Anyway? Um uh, it was. It was garbage.
Speaker 1: But they didn't really need it because you know, they
Speaker 1: were taking off from guadal Canal and flying basically over
Speaker 1: guadal can Our or the other islands where they were
Speaker 1: good landmarks, so they didn't really need a compass until
Speaker 1: this mission came along and he said, hey, the one
Speaker 1: I have is is awful. I need a good solid
Speaker 1: navy compass because I know you guys are passionate about navigation.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, they put a boat compass. They mounted
Speaker 1: it on his on his glare shield during so we
Speaker 1: had that. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was interesting. So having,
Speaker 1: you know, seeing a P. Thirty eight up close, I mean,
Speaker 1: I would imagine that as a crimped hot cockpit in there.
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of creature comforts from those guys.
Speaker 1: They're flying on the tack and obviously hot weather, it's
Speaker 1: probably hot inside there. That just has to add to
Speaker 1: the tension that's going on with these guys because obviously,
Speaker 1: as you said, you're flying fifty ft off the deck
Speaker 1: for a couple hundred miles. That has to be waiting
Speaker 1: and then knowing, you know, there's a pot some bold
Speaker 1: you're going to be facing the Japanese zeros when you
Speaker 1: get to your you know, um objectives. Yeah, and you know,
Speaker 1: again that's another hats off to the professionalism of these
Speaker 1: guys because they I'm sure you know, every guy handles
Speaker 1: it differently. You know that they weren't going to show it,
Speaker 1: but you know, they treated it like another mission. It's
Speaker 1: just something they had to do, so you know they
Speaker 1: were going to go do it. The cockpit actually, um,
Speaker 1: isn't that cramped. It's bigger than the one I had
Speaker 1: in the in the F sixteen. But but it's hot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it had a you know, it had a pretty good canopy.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of a lot of visibility, which
Speaker 1: is nice, but it also means that lets a lot
Speaker 1: of heat in um and you know, download like that.
Speaker 1: They had problems with the you know, the cockpit fogging
Speaker 1: up and some other things. So yeah, it wasn't it
Speaker 1: wasn't an easy flight. And then again, unlike a normal
Speaker 1: combat mission for them, where they would take off and
Speaker 1: they would go, you know, fight and land within an hour,
Speaker 1: it was going to take them, you know, two hours
Speaker 1: just to get there. So the tension and adrenaline that
Speaker 1: you have, you know in a normal mission kind of
Speaker 1: kind of dissipates a little bit, and you know, that's
Speaker 1: a real that can be a real danger. You can
Speaker 1: you know, you can go to sleep or get complacent
Speaker 1: or or whatever. And none of them did that, you know,
Speaker 1: they all all sixteen of them arrived over Bougainville, you know,
Speaker 1: right when they should have. So again hats off to him,
Speaker 1: right and you know, the cruising speech because of the
Speaker 1: the fuel situation, they were probably traveling one about two yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it came out to with the wind, but
Speaker 1: they were Mitchell planted for two um and they had
Speaker 1: they had about four hundred miles to go to in
Speaker 1: per Segusta Bay um. So it was going to be
Speaker 1: a little bit over two hours, you know, counting the
Speaker 1: time it took to take off and get rejoined and everything,
Speaker 1: and Sheil was. She was science. The couldn't have done
Speaker 1: it without those external tanks. You know, I think I
Speaker 1: did all the math in the in the book, but
Speaker 1: I think they had a total of seven gallons and
Speaker 1: just just getting there and getting back counted for seven
Speaker 1: and thirty six of it. So they had he had
Speaker 1: about forty five gallons, you know, of of slopping there,
Speaker 1: which would be maybe six minutes maybe seven minutes over
Speaker 1: the target, you know, in full power combat mode, which
Speaker 1: isn't a lot of time. Wow, that's that's uh, that's
Speaker 1: pretty limited. Yeah, you know, it's it's amazing. And like
Speaker 1: you said, hats off to these guys, especially Rex farber Um,
Speaker 1: and you talk about him in the book, and you know,
Speaker 1: before the war he was like, you know, he was
Speaker 1: like the average juo and living on the you know,
Speaker 1: in the Western United States, and you know he wanted
Speaker 1: to get a pilot and he ends up playing a
Speaker 1: huge role in this, and uh, I thought he did
Speaker 1: a great job of you know, explaining how he ended
Speaker 1: up taking such a valuable role in this and you know,
Speaker 1: explain more listeners how battle unfolded, because you know, they
Speaker 1: got to their exactly but they thought they were going
Speaker 1: to be and then they there was surprised because they
Speaker 1: thought there was only one supposed to be one bomber
Speaker 1: and those two. Yeah yeah. Rex Rex obviously gets gets
Speaker 1: kudos for finishing it all up. And he, you know,
Speaker 1: he was typical in a lot of ways, like a
Speaker 1: lot of those guys. You know, he was raised during
Speaker 1: the Great Depression, and something we have a hard time
Speaker 1: realizing now is just how tough. You know, the average
Speaker 1: young adult was in three because of the childhood and
Speaker 1: most of them had Rex Rex wasn't poor, but he
Speaker 1: was you know, he was a farmer and then he
Speaker 1: was a frat boy. He was like most pilot's, pretty
Speaker 1: happy go lucky for most of the time, but he
Speaker 1: could get serious when he had to, and he obviously
Speaker 1: had to get serious now. Um. The plan was with
Speaker 1: six that twelve of them, as soon as they hit
Speaker 1: him for s Augusta Bay would climb up and go engage.
Speaker 1: You know, the eighty Japanese zeros that we thought would
Speaker 1: be you know, orbiting over the island or at least
Speaker 1: on call because this was there. This was their naval
Speaker 1: commander in chief. You know, it was a national hero.
Speaker 1: They we we just couldn't conceive that they wouldn't have
Speaker 1: every airplane on that island up, you know, as a
Speaker 1: show of force and also to protect him. But as
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, you know, they suffered from arrogance and hubrews,
Speaker 1: and they figured, hey, we're four hundred miles from the Americans,
Speaker 1: and besides they can't understand our language. Anyway, there's no risks,
Speaker 1: so you know, we'll just have six escorts, you know,
Speaker 1: fly with Yamamoto and that's it. So Mitchell and his
Speaker 1: and his other eleven guys, when they separated and started
Speaker 1: to climb up, they found a big empty sky. You know,
Speaker 1: there wouldn't that one anybody waiting on him. So that
Speaker 1: leaves lamp he here, Tom lamp he Here leading the
Speaker 1: other four, and they went to jettison their tanks. And
Speaker 1: the last two guys in that flight of four couldn't
Speaker 1: one of them couldn't get his tanks off. So I
Speaker 1: would have gone in any way, I'd have kept the tank.
Speaker 1: But this guy circled back out over the water to
Speaker 1: try to get his tank off, and his wingman went
Speaker 1: with him. So now it's just lamp he here and
Speaker 1: Barber up against you know, the bomber, and a couple
Speaker 1: of things happen all at once. First of all, they
Speaker 1: see that there's two bombers like you mentioned, not one,
Speaker 1: which is no big deal. But then they see the
Speaker 1: close escorts and there are six of them, six zero fighters.
Speaker 1: So lamp he here does exactly what he should do.
Speaker 1: He you know, tells rex press On you know, you're
Speaker 1: you're cleared off, and he peels off and he goes
Speaker 1: one against six against the Japanese zero's while Barber you know,
Speaker 1: runs in and completes the intercept against the bombers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it was I mean the detail again you you're
Speaker 1: talking about how that all transpired. And he chewed up
Speaker 1: that first bomber, the one that ended up being the
Speaker 1: one that everyone was in. And you know, um, they
Speaker 1: talked about his wounds after the fact, and you know,
Speaker 1: his plane gets shot down and it seemed like it
Speaker 1: was just shrapnel, not really the the slugs of the
Speaker 1: fifty calendar twenty moment going in there. But you know,
Speaker 1: it was amazing that one piece of shrappen, the one
Speaker 1: under I believe it was under his left jar and
Speaker 1: came out under his eye and he had a death
Speaker 1: groupon his sword, who still found clutching the sword and
Speaker 1: the wreckage of the plane. I thought that was it
Speaker 1: was just kind of surreal when you when you read
Speaker 1: about that. Well, and that was that was a real
Speaker 1: interesting and crucial part of the book because you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of the controversy that followed was rex bar
Speaker 1: Or was a lamp Here, claiming that that he's the
Speaker 1: one that shot Yamamoto down. So I I really had to,
Speaker 1: you know, I had to get I had to put
Speaker 1: myself in the cockpit. I had to. I had to,
Speaker 1: you know, fly the numbers. I had to. I had
Speaker 1: to get the world's oldest living P thirty eight pilot
Speaker 1: to check my math. And and he did. And and
Speaker 1: you know, once you look at it objectively mathematically, you know,
Speaker 1: and you realize there's no way lamp Here could have
Speaker 1: done this. So then how did rex Barber do it?
Speaker 1: And like you said, you know, he he rolls in
Speaker 1: behind the lead bomber, and the second bomber peels away,
Speaker 1: dives down for the jungle and runs for the coast.
Speaker 1: Barbara concentrates on on the bomber that he's shooting at.
Speaker 1: You know, in this whole you gotta remember a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't get how fast all this happens. I
Speaker 1: mean even in a World War two p. Thirty eight.
Speaker 1: This thing was over in less than two minutes. And
Speaker 1: he you know, he put four bursts into that airplane.
Speaker 1: And you're exactly right. I mean, you know, if a
Speaker 1: fifty caliber slug hit somebody, that's you know, Terry an half.
Speaker 1: So it was. It was. It was the spawling. It
Speaker 1: was the pieces of the bullets and the cannon shells
Speaker 1: that actually killed Yamamoto. Um one win in her shoulder
Speaker 1: blade and like I said, the other one the other
Speaker 1: one went in his win in his head and he
Speaker 1: died probably instantly, and that's why his hand clutched the sword.
Speaker 1: I forget the medical term for it, but I put
Speaker 1: it in the book, um because you know, we got
Speaker 1: ahold of the autopsy results and so you know, there
Speaker 1: there really was no controversy. His plane went into the jungle,
Speaker 1: and I did all the math, and you know, I
Speaker 1: don't want to ruin the surprise, but I mathematically proved
Speaker 1: that lamp here could have been nowhere near you know,
Speaker 1: either bomber Rex was fortunate. You know, when he came
Speaker 1: off of shooting down Yamamoto's bomber. He looked behind him
Speaker 1: and he saw three of the zeros you know, coming
Speaker 1: down after him, and I'm sure he wanted to stay
Speaker 1: in fight, but he thought, all right, I've done what
Speaker 1: I need to do. I'm out of gas, and I'm
Speaker 1: you know, two and twenty miles from home. I need
Speaker 1: to get out of here, and he pushed the throttles
Speaker 1: up and headed for the coast and he just happened
Speaker 1: to run across the second bomber and shot that one
Speaker 1: down too. So we had a really good day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, that was the amazing thing that you know,
Speaker 1: I never realized that both of them. And but that's
Speaker 1: where the controversy started, because, um, you know, the pilots
Speaker 1: all made to be back to while canal and then
Speaker 1: the pilot that you mentioned land for here, uh kind
Speaker 1: of blew everything out of the water getting on the
Speaker 1: right an open frequency and he says that, and you know,
Speaker 1: there was some real opposition to the idea of shooting
Speaker 1: down Yamamoto because we didn't want the Japanese to wonder,
Speaker 1: how did we get there at the right place at
Speaker 1: the right time. They must have broken our code. We're
Speaker 1: going to switch our code. We didn't want him to
Speaker 1: do that, and so there was a real good chance
Speaker 1: that you know, they might have figured that out. They
Speaker 1: never did. But when lamp Here comes over on an
Speaker 1: open radio frequency and says, I shot the bastard down
Speaker 1: or something like that, I killed Yamamoto, you know, if
Speaker 1: if a Japanese listening post had picked that up, even
Speaker 1: the Japanese couldn't have failed to realize what that meant.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, that, yeah, that over the whole kingdom
Speaker 1: worms and recked poperlisheem like he was kind of above
Speaker 1: it all. He didn't really care who was taking credit.
Speaker 1: He knew what he did. Yeah, and neither did John Mitchell.
Speaker 1: You know, like I said, all along to these guys,
Speaker 1: to everybody that lamp Here, it was just another combat mission.
Speaker 1: And as soon as they got down from this one
Speaker 1: that you know, they had to plan and get some
Speaker 1: food and get some rest for the one they were
Speaker 1: going to do the next day. So you know, I'll
Speaker 1: tell you from experience that you know, after a couple
Speaker 1: of months of doing that, I mean, you're just worn out.
Speaker 1: You don't you don't really care, You just you know,
Speaker 1: you want to you want to figure out what you
Speaker 1: gotta do tomorrow and then you want to get some
Speaker 1: to eat and go to bed. And that's that's what
Speaker 1: they that's what they wanted to do. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: everybody but lamp Here. He made it very plain right
Speaker 1: from the beginning that you know, he wanted a political
Speaker 1: career after the war, and he saw this mission as
Speaker 1: a as a way to hang his you know, to
Speaker 1: hang his reputation on on what happened and claim credit
Speaker 1: for it. And you know, aspired a high political office,
Speaker 1: which is what he wanted to do. And you know,
Speaker 1: the amazing thing is is what he did was still
Speaker 1: a huge part of the mission. And he had nothing
Speaker 1: to be ashamed about what he did. I mean, as
Speaker 1: you talked about in the book, he did exactly the
Speaker 1: rights and he turned into six zeroes and go after
Speaker 1: to go honey, And there's nothing wrong with that. He
Speaker 1: should have been he should have been happy with that.
Speaker 1: You're exactly right. I mean, what he did allowed Rex
Speaker 1: Barber to do what he did. He should have been
Speaker 1: content with that. And going one against six, you know,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a baldy move. Anyway, Now, he didn't
Speaker 1: he didn't shoot any of them down and they didn't
Speaker 1: get him. He just sort of blew through him, but
Speaker 1: he scattered them, you know, and he disrupted whatever they
Speaker 1: were planning on doing. And he gave Barber the chance
Speaker 1: to shoot down Yamamoto and get away. So he should
Speaker 1: have been content with that, but he wasn't. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: then after you know, his his radio call, the guys
Speaker 1: kind of and he talked about it in the book.
Speaker 1: They talked to an AP reporter who was acting like, okay,
Speaker 1: I know all about this, and so they kind of
Speaker 1: admitted to what they had done. And then again you
Speaker 1: mentioned that earlier Admiral Halsey found out and trying to
Speaker 1: instead of giving these guys aventle of honor that they deserved,
Speaker 1: he tried to import martial. Yeah, he did. I mean
Speaker 1: he was. He was really and you know, he had
Speaker 1: a he's looking at a big picture, and like I said,
Speaker 1: the big picture is, hey, if the Japanese changed their
Speaker 1: coat over this, you know, we could lose thousands of guys.
Speaker 1: So he had a legitimate concern, but that doesn't diminish
Speaker 1: what these guys did. And Barbara and Mitchell never said anything.
Speaker 1: You know, they didn't get on the radio and make
Speaker 1: any wild claims, and they didn't. They didn't admit anything
Speaker 1: to this reporter. I blame the Navy for letting this
Speaker 1: reporter roam around in a you know, in an area
Speaker 1: like that without anybody watching over him and making sure
Speaker 1: he isn't asking questions that he shouldn't shouldn't be asking,
Speaker 1: because the average guy is going to assume, hey, you're here,
Speaker 1: you have permission to be here. I'm supposed to talk
Speaker 1: to you, so I'm gonna talk to you so and
Speaker 1: to reporter, wasn't it was something in the Navy, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know, and in the end, nothing happened, the
Speaker 1: Japanese never, there was no harm done. So there was
Speaker 1: no reason not to swallow your anger and your pissiness
Speaker 1: and and give these guys the reward, you know, that
Speaker 1: they deserve. And I hope, you know, we had this
Speaker 1: pr blitz planned for this book release. That can't happen now,
Speaker 1: obviously because of the virus and every thing else. But
Speaker 1: what I was hoping would come out of it was
Speaker 1: somebody with enough authority would look at this and they
Speaker 1: would retroactively award, you know, the medals of honor to
Speaker 1: Mitchell and Barber that they deserve. Yeah, and that's something
Speaker 1: that you know someday, but let's hope that gets done. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: needed one of them lived long enough to see it.
Speaker 1: But I think it's a it's a worthy cause. They
Speaker 1: had to get these guys the owner that they deserved. Especially,
Speaker 1: you know, Barber shot down both of the bombers, but
Speaker 1: Trump Mitchell did that the entire getting them there in
Speaker 1: the in the manner that he did it as quickly
Speaker 1: and as perfectly as he did, I think just an
Speaker 1: incredible feet of flying. And that's coming from a nonpilot.
Speaker 1: But well, I You've said a lot of nice things.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. The book. Again, I I really like
Speaker 1: to try to redress historical wrongs when I can, you know,
Speaker 1: through these through these books, and this is one of
Speaker 1: them that I'm very passionate about because these guys deserve it.
Speaker 1: If you think about the implications of Yamamoto surviving, okay,
Speaker 1: what would have happened. Um, you know, Japan was going
Speaker 1: to lose the war, that was a foregone conclusion, but
Speaker 1: Yamamoto definitely could have made it bloodier and probably longer
Speaker 1: than it was if you'd stayed alive. So how many
Speaker 1: people are alive today because Rex Barber killed Yamamoto. You know,
Speaker 1: that's a great question. That is a great question. And
Speaker 1: that's why I love these historical especially these World War
Speaker 1: two books. I grew up reading a lot about World
Speaker 1: War Two because my father was involved in it, in
Speaker 1: the European Campaign. And it was funny. My dad looks
Speaker 1: like one of those typical backs like you're writing about,
Speaker 1: and it was funny because he never were talked about
Speaker 1: the war. But growing up, all the guys from his
Speaker 1: old unit used to come to our house this summer,
Speaker 1: and about twice every summer, all the guys would get together.
Speaker 1: They bring their families oliver and would have like barbecus
Speaker 1: in my parents backyard. And then late at night, after
Speaker 1: the guys had a couple of drinks, that all the
Speaker 1: old vets would venture went in the back where the
Speaker 1: garden was and they would just talk amongst themselves. Because
Speaker 1: my father never talked about what he did, and I
Speaker 1: never knew what he did until after he passed away.
Speaker 1: That one of the guys came to the wake with
Speaker 1: my sister, my brother and I and he was like,
Speaker 1: did you ever read about the father? And I was like,
Speaker 1: read what he's like? He did a couple of books,
Speaker 1: and so now it opened up a whole new realm
Speaker 1: because then I started researching this and I found stuff
Speaker 1: about my father that I never knew. I'm reading them
Speaker 1: about my own dad in a book. And then that's
Speaker 1: one of my biggest regrets. I always wish that I
Speaker 1: could have talked to him about those things, but that
Speaker 1: wasn't his style. He just didn't do that. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: a lot of guys didn't. And you know yourself, because
Speaker 1: you're you're a veteran, I mean, people always ask they
Speaker 1: probably ask you to you know, what was it like?
Speaker 1: And and there's no frame of reference for that unless
Speaker 1: you're talking to somebody else that's been through something similar.
Speaker 1: And that's why your dad's friends, you know, would wait
Speaker 1: until everybody was gone and they'd go off in the
Speaker 1: garden and talk, because you know, who else are they
Speaker 1: going to talk to you about this except other guys
Speaker 1: that have been there and done that, right, right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you know, but a quarter huh oh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would have loved to have been fly on the
Speaker 1: wall back then, because then then, you know, reading about
Speaker 1: your own father in a book when they mentioned him
Speaker 1: my name, it was pretty amazing, and you know, it
Speaker 1: opened up a whole realm. And that's why I love
Speaker 1: history like that, because there's so many of these stories,
Speaker 1: and I love talking with the old vets, especially the
Speaker 1: World War two guys, because we're losing him at such
Speaker 1: a rate. And you uh, you know, I thought you
Speaker 1: brought this book. And again I encourage all our readers
Speaker 1: and listeners out and buy this Operation Vengeance. This is
Speaker 1: a fantastic book. And you know, you talk about the
Speaker 1: characters in this and you get a feeling that by
Speaker 1: the end of the book that you actually know some
Speaker 1: of these guys. And that's that's I think. It's a
Speaker 1: really you know, uh, it's a good way to feel like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I read this now I actually feel like I knew him.
Speaker 1: These guys, well, I gotta tell you, that's about the
Speaker 1: nicest compliments you can give a writer. So thank you. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, they become personal to me when I write
Speaker 1: about him, and and it's weird. I actually sometimes start
Speaker 1: having dreams, you know, and and we're all in the dream.
Speaker 1: You know. I spent so much time him in the
Speaker 1: and talking to you know, the guy, the couple of
Speaker 1: guys that I could find it fluid. You know that
Speaker 1: I'd start dreaming about it and I felt like I
Speaker 1: knew these guys, you know. So I try to get
Speaker 1: as much of that across in the book as I
Speaker 1: can as I could. So hopefully, hopefully everybody feels that way.
Speaker 1: I hope, so I think everyone will. Again, Uh, we
Speaker 1: want to encourage all our readers and listeners by this.
Speaker 1: It should be included in your library. If you're a
Speaker 1: military history and if you're just somebody that loves being
Speaker 1: a good story. You don't have to be into the
Speaker 1: military history side, although loss of Barbaries tend to be
Speaker 1: that way. But you know, again, it's very kind if
Speaker 1: you just say that, and I would I would ask
Speaker 1: that if if people do get the book and they
Speaker 1: like it, the Amazon and reviews really help or good reads. Um,
Speaker 1: if you like the book, if you hate the book,
Speaker 1: then just send me an email and I'll send you
Speaker 1: a drink. But if you like the book, it always
Speaker 1: helps to to to say something about it. Doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be very involved, but that that always makes a difference.
Speaker 1: So thanks, thanks for saying that well, and we want
Speaker 1: to thank you for joining us. I know you have
Speaker 1: to be somewhere in a very short amount of time. Okay,
Speaker 1: if you have any last question, shoot him at me. Well,
Speaker 1: I just what's your next big project that you're looking at.
Speaker 1: I actually just signed a contract with a new publisher,
Speaker 1: McMillan St. Martin's Press on another World War two book
Speaker 1: that I hope will be the biggest one I've ever done.
Speaker 1: It's a fantastic story. I ran across it while I
Speaker 1: was researching Vengeance and I and then I am enthralled
Speaker 1: with it, and I hope everybody else will be too.
Speaker 1: It should should be delivered next year and published late
Speaker 1: next year, I think, is what we're shooting for. So
Speaker 1: I can't tell you what it's about, but it's good.
Speaker 1: It's called Valor, and it's a it's a fantast stick story. Well,
Speaker 1: we look forward to reading that as well. Again, this
Speaker 1: was a fantastic read. We want to thank you for
Speaker 1: joining us this Abta Moon. Thank you for your time
Speaker 1: and uh, good luck with the book. And you know
Speaker 1: we're we're definitely gonna put a good reviewing on the Amazon. Well.
Speaker 1: I appreciate the kind words and the opportunity, and you
Speaker 1: know I'll always come back and and chat about anything
Speaker 1: you want to so get a hold of me whenever
Speaker 1: you like. I'll make time for it that we look
Speaker 1: forward to that in fact, when your next book comes out,
Speaker 1: and get on your advanced calendar. So we're we're one
Speaker 1: of the first people that uh you can talk to
Speaker 1: them about that one perfect perfect well. Thanks again, thank
Speaker 1: you for joining us and for all of us here
Speaker 1: in Software Radio. We want to thank everyone for listening.
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out all our articles on the website.
Speaker 1: We want to thank our guests Dan Hampton for joining us.
Speaker 1: It's a fantastic book, folks, Operation in Vengeance. It comes
Speaker 1: out next week. To make sure you put it in
Speaker 1: your library. For all of us here, myself, Steve Bultourie,
Speaker 1: all of us here at Software Radio, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: We'll be back soon. You've been listening to self red
Speaker 1: Radio m