Speaker 1: Hey, this Sanny and Samantha and welcome to Stephane. Never
Speaker 1: told your production of I Heart Radio. All right, guys,
Speaker 1: today we are doing something a little different. Um, and
Speaker 1: I'm very excited about it because I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1: I've missed my dear friend a lot. We may have
Speaker 1: a moment. We're gonna have a moment in a minute.
Speaker 1: But one of my friends and good people of my
Speaker 1: life's who I also had the pleasure of working with
Speaker 1: at the Department of Juvenal Justice here in Georgia. Um,
Speaker 1: and we are going to do conversation, easy going conversation. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: so um everyone. I want y'all to meet my friend
Speaker 1: Courtney Jones. Everyone, my Courtney. My name is Courtney Jones.
Speaker 1: Like you mentioned before, I do work with the Georgia
Speaker 1: Department of Juvenile Justice and work with placing kids and
Speaker 1: throughout the state making sure they receive residential treatment care
Speaker 1: if they should need it. Oh. Um, and Courdney, if
Speaker 1: you don't mind, can you give us a little bit
Speaker 1: of your educational background and how you kind of got
Speaker 1: into this field. Sure, Um, I started out very actually
Speaker 1: I was supposed to be a teacher. Um. I tried
Speaker 1: to do that and it did not go well. I
Speaker 1: don't know how teachers teach and discipline at the same time.
Speaker 1: So I quickly changed my major after volunteering one summer
Speaker 1: and I said new not for me. So I have
Speaker 1: a bachelor's degree in psychology and human services and after
Speaker 1: that I got a master's degree in school council. I
Speaker 1: also have a minor in African American studies, but I
Speaker 1: don't know if that really counts, as I didn't graduate
Speaker 1: from that school, it counts, I think, so yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: social work. You couldn't in my school. You couldn't get
Speaker 1: a minor, and you could get a second day or
Speaker 1: an emphasis. So I was, I think two three courses
Speaker 1: away from having another major in religion. Really weird, so
Speaker 1: I kind of say that's my minor, even though technically
Speaker 1: I couldn't have a minor. So weird to me. I
Speaker 1: don't know why, but yes, um and I know, just
Speaker 1: so for you guys to know. Courtney and I actually
Speaker 1: met because we both interviewed for a promotional uh position
Speaker 1: at d j J. There was two spots open, and
Speaker 1: she and I were the ones that received those spots,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh no, who am I going
Speaker 1: to work with who's coming in with me? And I
Speaker 1: think it was the second day? Was it the second
Speaker 1: day you and I actually started the job. We wanted
Speaker 1: out and about and we feared out. We were pretty
Speaker 1: much salt mates. Oh no, I knew day one. I
Speaker 1: told you one that you needed your own reality of
Speaker 1: the show. This was just like just full alive and
Speaker 1: so I loved her. Day one. It was more anxiety
Speaker 1: more than energy. So I couldn't stop talking. I couldn't
Speaker 1: tell okay, good good. I was like, this girl is
Speaker 1: gonna hate me by the end of this. This woman
Speaker 1: is going to be like, get it out through my car,
Speaker 1: Get out of my car right now. Um. But we
Speaker 1: did have some good body moments. And just for context, uh,
Speaker 1: the area that Courtney and I worked out and we're
Speaker 1: definitely was definitely the major parts like of North Georgia,
Speaker 1: So she covered all of the small surrounding counties while
Speaker 1: I covered the major cities. So I was a city girl, yes, um.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that we often talked about
Speaker 1: during our many many like release sessions, I guess we
Speaker 1: can call it um, would be the fact of where
Speaker 1: we were in our field, how we got into our
Speaker 1: field and how we could make change. And I think
Speaker 1: what we bonded most over is that we do We
Speaker 1: would come out talking about loving our kids, and these
Speaker 1: kids were hours, whether or not we spent one on
Speaker 1: one time more than an hour or never at all,
Speaker 1: Like even if we just read all of their files
Speaker 1: and understood where they were coming from or trying to
Speaker 1: understand where they're coming from, we would claim them as
Speaker 1: our own, our kids. And she and I went through
Speaker 1: a lot of heartbreak, also a lot of encouraging times, um,
Speaker 1: and of course a lot of frustration about what it
Speaker 1: looks like to be in public service. Would you agree
Speaker 1: with that, Corney? Right? And I think one of the
Speaker 1: reasons we wanted to talk about this and I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about this not only to have her on
Speaker 1: the show because I miss her dearly and also, you know,
Speaker 1: I needed my one work wife to meet the other
Speaker 1: work wife. This is a ploy, um, But the fact
Speaker 1: that we I have been talking about the justice system
Speaker 1: looked like today and where have we gone wrong? And
Speaker 1: how do we fix it? How do we fix it all?
Speaker 1: And what does it look like to try to fix it?
Speaker 1: And one of the big components to that is at
Speaker 1: risk teams and at risk youths and UM for myself,
Speaker 1: I got into the field after I left the Department
Speaker 1: of Family and Children's Services investigating child abuse because I
Speaker 1: wanted to try to do something that would impact for
Speaker 1: the future, if that makes sense. Coming in after the fact,
Speaker 1: trying to keep a family together didn't seem like it
Speaker 1: was working, So for me, I wanted to try a
Speaker 1: little more differently with youths and trying to prevent and
Speaker 1: help them have a better start or a better life,
Speaker 1: or a turnaround or at least the bay at least
Speaker 1: someone to support them. UM. And I think with that
Speaker 1: one of the things that go through my mind and Accordney,
Speaker 1: I want you to tell your side of this as well,
Speaker 1: is as we're seeing all of the brutality that is happening,
Speaker 1: the questions about power versus empathy, power versus UH, the escalation,
Speaker 1: and also what it means to hold people accountable is
Speaker 1: kind of that question of how do we do that
Speaker 1: on a bigger scale, but also on the smaller scale.
Speaker 1: Because if you're in social work, I know you guys
Speaker 1: know this. We talk about the macro versus micro practices,
Speaker 1: and I think that's part of the conversations that we're
Speaker 1: not having when we talk about to fund the police,
Speaker 1: whether or not abolition of police is even possible, or
Speaker 1: how it's possible, or talking about what it looks like
Speaker 1: to break down one power scope or will say, white
Speaker 1: supremacy in an area that is infiltrated with a lot
Speaker 1: of biases and prejudices that's in there. But with that, Courtney,
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you as a person, who how
Speaker 1: long have you been with d j J. I know
Speaker 1: it's been a minute, yeah, Um, yeah, I started in twelve.
Speaker 1: This was after me trying to get I was successibly
Speaker 1: getting a job with the school system because becoming a
Speaker 1: school counselor, you know, that's position where someone either retires
Speaker 1: or dies. There is no in between, just that dream job.
Speaker 1: What else can I do with this that can really
Speaker 1: affect the same population. D j J was a perfect
Speaker 1: fit basically working with the same clientele. Um, the kids
Speaker 1: that would come in UM in the school councilor's office
Speaker 1: are the same kids that you will be dealing with
Speaker 1: with DJJ. So I was there since started as a
Speaker 1: probation officer and then moved into my current position. When
Speaker 1: you were talking about how you got into this to
Speaker 1: work with that population. UM. I was the same way.
Speaker 1: So one of the things I did want to ask
Speaker 1: you is did you get pulled in during the initiative
Speaker 1: when they were trying to bring in count serge and
Speaker 1: social workers as well as because that's how I got involved.
Speaker 1: They were trying to go away from punitive Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1: So at that time, I was working as a probation
Speaker 1: officer at the Calf County. This is before I obtained
Speaker 1: my master's degree. So that was part of the whole
Speaker 1: restorative justice UM model in which they were trying to
Speaker 1: get back to UM community policing, bringing more social workers
Speaker 1: in and really getting the kids not to see us
Speaker 1: as police officers, but more UM kind of the same
Speaker 1: vein as UH defects as case worker, so not your
Speaker 1: probation officers, but your case worker. And the focus of
Speaker 1: that was for us to be just basically just that,
Speaker 1: a case worker, the liaison of putting all of those
Speaker 1: services together. So we were counseling, we were getting them
Speaker 1: to UM to their actor school group sessions, making sure
Speaker 1: that they are participating in school, make ensured of getting
Speaker 1: the family counseling. All of those things combined in the one.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I was definitely there for that. There was
Speaker 1: plenty of UM in house trainings conferences and it was
Speaker 1: awesome in that they were focused on that, but it
Speaker 1: failed in that they did not tie everything together like
Speaker 1: we have the every year the UM Systems of Care Conference,
Speaker 1: which is a great conference, be gives us a lot
Speaker 1: of ideas, but we don't have the community resources to
Speaker 1: do what we're talking about UM or we have the
Speaker 1: community resources, but they're not in the places where we
Speaker 1: need them. There's so much out there, but there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people will not or cannot travel to
Speaker 1: the places that we needed the most, like those countries,
Speaker 1: and those are our North Georgia kids and you know
Speaker 1: Middle Georgia kids. They suffer because there really aren't any
Speaker 1: alternative counseling or programs that can assist through their crisis.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of where we are. And I know
Speaker 1: they kind of they had brought me in and I
Speaker 1: was what they called the Probation Parole Specialists and I
Speaker 1: know that's what your title as well. And the at
Speaker 1: this time, it was during the initiative to bring in
Speaker 1: more case workers and more counseling level of people to
Speaker 1: do this type of management. And I actually when I
Speaker 1: started my job, I loved it. I loved interacting with
Speaker 1: the kids. I felt so passionate about sitting with them.
Speaker 1: And of course, because I had a background in the
Speaker 1: Department of Family Children's Services, I had a lot of
Speaker 1: those dual cases where they may be a part of
Speaker 1: both defacts. In DJJ also had the mental health caseload essentially,
Speaker 1: so any child that might have some type of mental
Speaker 1: health diagnosis, I typically would have them on my plate.
Speaker 1: I also had parents who are who had mental health
Speaker 1: diagnosis on my caseload too, because that was a whole
Speaker 1: different scenario. But I was one of the things that
Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by in my field, in our
Speaker 1: fields essentially, and especially with d j J. And I'm
Speaker 1: not really sure what the breakdown is because I couldn't
Speaker 1: find any actual statistics um and that I do know
Speaker 1: that in social work, uh, women make up eighty one
Speaker 1: percent of the workers of social workers in the nation,
Speaker 1: and then counselors is sixty nine nine of women in counseling.
Speaker 1: And then if you look at the others, like human
Speaker 1: services field, their social services field that might not have
Speaker 1: a social work degree or counseling degree. That's a d.
Speaker 1: Two percent of them are women as well, which I
Speaker 1: found fascinating, um and not so surprising because if we
Speaker 1: if you've been in the field long enough, yes see it,
Speaker 1: that's who you work with typically um and not again,
Speaker 1: I'm not so surprising, uh, for those who climb their
Speaker 1: way up to the ladder is typically men and whether
Speaker 1: they were there to begin with or not. Um. In
Speaker 1: nonprofits alone, even though in the nonprofit world, old, let
Speaker 1: me find my statistics, Uh, of the employees are women,
Speaker 1: but only of the women become CEOs of these nonprofits.
Speaker 1: And if an organization has a budget of at least
Speaker 1: twenty one million, only twenty one are run by female CEOs,
Speaker 1: which there's a lot to me you no, no, but
Speaker 1: that says much to y'all. Um. And then it's also
Speaker 1: one to note that on the organizational boards for nonprofits,
Speaker 1: only four percent of the women women of color on
Speaker 1: the awards, which I find really disheartening and sad because obviously,
Speaker 1: if you look at the statistics, the people who know
Speaker 1: what's going on are women, and most likely women of color. Now,
Speaker 1: I did find a different statistics saying that social workers
Speaker 1: because you know I'm all about my social workers do
Speaker 1: make up of mainly white women, which I'm baffled by, honestly,
Speaker 1: because the majority of people that I've worked with are
Speaker 1: typically women of color, and for the metro area, for Georgia,
Speaker 1: it's typically black women. Mm hmm. And Party, I wanted
Speaker 1: to have a dialogue because you and I have talked
Speaker 1: a lot about why someone gets into this field any
Speaker 1: we've made. We've had an episode previously about why anyone
Speaker 1: gets into this field, and typically it's because of personal trauma,
Speaker 1: personal experiences, and a desire through because of empathy, because
Speaker 1: of that level of personal experience that builds that empathy
Speaker 1: to want to make change. And um, would that be
Speaker 1: why you would say you were a part of this Yes, Um,
Speaker 1: I've always known that was gonna work with kids. Even
Speaker 1: as a kid, children have naturally just flocked to me.
Speaker 1: I don't know why that is. I command the grocery
Speaker 1: stove right now, and the little kid will walk up
Speaker 1: to me and do like this, pick me up. It's
Speaker 1: like motion. I don't know this kid. It's kind concerning,
Speaker 1: it's very weird, but it happens. But um, yeah, I
Speaker 1: always knew I was gonna work with kids. Um, So
Speaker 1: when the teaching thing didn't work out because of my
Speaker 1: lack of patience with the discipline part, Um, this was
Speaker 1: perfect because I'm all about discipline and being able to
Speaker 1: do it in a helpful vein. I don't believe in
Speaker 1: person yelling to get my point across that kids and
Speaker 1: think it enough of that at home. So, um, this
Speaker 1: fit very well with what I wanted to do. The
Speaker 1: problem is always gonna be money. Um. What you were
Speaker 1: those statistics that you were talking about, the men are
Speaker 1: the CEO is because of the whole money situation. Men
Speaker 1: are still promoted based the fond the fact that they
Speaker 1: are the bread winners of their family. Um, and and
Speaker 1: women aren't that we just aren't. And However, a lot
Speaker 1: of people, I think go into social work because it
Speaker 1: is such a It is a feeling which you can
Speaker 1: build your family, Like if you were very family oriented,
Speaker 1: you can take your time off and then come back.
Speaker 1: That is one of the good things about being a
Speaker 1: governmental employee. Your time is your time. So if you've
Speaker 1: earned the time, you use the time and you can
Speaker 1: come back. So I think there's pros and concept why
Speaker 1: people choose to be in this particular field, whether it
Speaker 1: is they want to build their family. They don't necessarily
Speaker 1: care about the money because their partner makes more than enough,
Speaker 1: and they truly have a desire to help people and
Speaker 1: this is the best way that you can do that
Speaker 1: at multiple levels. It started for me UM being a
Speaker 1: kid working living in a low income area. We received
Speaker 1: a lot of programs people coming in, whether that be
Speaker 1: hands On Atlanta or UM. There were other volunteer groups
Speaker 1: that would come in and work with us. I also
Speaker 1: was a part of Upward Bound program, which is a
Speaker 1: federally run program which UM took at a riscue and
Speaker 1: encouraged them to go to college, which was a treat
Speaker 1: for me because that meant met every Saturday, I got
Speaker 1: to be on the Moorhouse campus and be surrounded by
Speaker 1: all these wonderful, laurious, gorgeous young men and if you know,
Speaker 1: UM the summer program was so awesome also because they
Speaker 1: took us on a college tour. We got to see
Speaker 1: campuses and go have the dorm experience and it was
Speaker 1: all free. So when I started thinking about, you know, man,
Speaker 1: that's something I really would like to do. I would
Speaker 1: like to do this for someone else who may not
Speaker 1: have the opportunity because I wasn't a troubled kid. I
Speaker 1: was not in the principal's office, I was not seeing
Speaker 1: the school council all the time. But I needed help,
Speaker 1: and I was one of the very few that actually
Speaker 1: got it, that didn't just slip through. I can think
Speaker 1: of many other my classmates that were kind of in
Speaker 1: the same boat as me, but they never received those things.
Speaker 1: But once I saw free and then you're gonna give
Speaker 1: me a Marty card to be there. Oh I'm there.
Speaker 1: You like your free I know you were the first
Speaker 1: person I've met. You're like, it's my birthday week. I
Speaker 1: got download all my free things. There you go. It's
Speaker 1: all about me, which my birthday and every birthday should
Speaker 1: be a national holiday. In my mind, I celebrated like
Speaker 1: that half Christmas is going to kick off. It is
Speaker 1: oh yeah, her birthdays. How She's like, my birthday is
Speaker 1: in between halfway to Christmas. And I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: six months before Christmas and six months after you can't
Speaker 1: be there. So we're gonna do an happy birthday day.
Speaker 1: Everybody's gonna say you happy birthdays. Remember that, listeners, we
Speaker 1: have some more of our conversation with Courtney. But first
Speaker 1: we have a quick break for a word from our
Speaker 1: sponsor and back, thank you sponsor. Let's get back into it. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think that was one of the big questions as
Speaker 1: we've seen. I know we were talking about just ability
Speaker 1: and care and that's kind of one of the things
Speaker 1: that they talked about as to why men aren't being
Speaker 1: social workers are going into that field. Um And by
Speaker 1: the way, in the nineteen eighties, over thirty something percent
Speaker 1: of social workers were men. As of this last few
Speaker 1: years it went down to ten percent. And the big
Speaker 1: question about why, and again we talked about money. And
Speaker 1: by the way, I had to have three jobs at
Speaker 1: one point in order to live by myself in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: UM and I know many people from like New York
Speaker 1: and California A scoff and DC like, oh, you don't
Speaker 1: have to pay you know, your cost of living is
Speaker 1: not that much. I was like, yeah, well, in comparison
Speaker 1: to what we're being paid, it is um And it
Speaker 1: took me to that and I'm still paying pretty low
Speaker 1: now for my apartment um at with forty and trying
Speaker 1: to figure out how to do this and I finally
Speaker 1: have landed a job and it had to be away
Speaker 1: from social work, like that's the only way I could
Speaker 1: do it, and or any kind of social services in general.
Speaker 1: But that was one of the things like Okay, maybe
Speaker 1: it's money and that could be it. But one of
Speaker 1: the bigger conversations is that men are less likely to
Speaker 1: seek help like therapy, like assistance in that way, so
Speaker 1: that toxic maxculinity holds them bags. So therefore, why would
Speaker 1: you want men to help other women? Maybe, you know,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of that level of like, okay, who
Speaker 1: helps whom? Well, of course it's that's a female. A
Speaker 1: female should help them. Maybe that's that conversation. On top
Speaker 1: of that, there's also that conversation that social services and
Speaker 1: social care is more like caretaking, as you said, um,
Speaker 1: giving and providing, which is very maternal and seen as feminine.
Speaker 1: So therefore men don't want to be a part of
Speaker 1: that culture. I gotta be a man. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of one of those levels of Okay, we get you,
Speaker 1: but that's really really toxic and really unhealthy. It is.
Speaker 1: I think if we approached a different way, this is
Speaker 1: not about if we take away the social work part
Speaker 1: of them, put more mentor coaching those are terms that
Speaker 1: they can get with, right, that's those are the things
Speaker 1: that they like. This is how we pander and so
Speaker 1: and then I know a big part of that which
Speaker 1: again kind of enables this toxic masculinity, this misogynistic idea
Speaker 1: is saying being a man. So a lot of our
Speaker 1: mentoring program talk about men being men. Yes, but in
Speaker 1: order to get more men in it, we have to
Speaker 1: rebrand this thing, is what I'm saying. If you want
Speaker 1: men to be more caring and more open and to
Speaker 1: really be there for this younger generation and get them
Speaker 1: out of that toxicity, we have to uh do a
Speaker 1: new campaign so far as to lure them in, and
Speaker 1: the money has to change, and it has to be
Speaker 1: a way for us to let them know that, hey,
Speaker 1: this is not just about wiping noses and patting people
Speaker 1: on the back. We're really talking about the future of
Speaker 1: our country. We have to change how we talk to
Speaker 1: one another, how we communicate one another. And if we
Speaker 1: can't do that right now with our young people we're having,
Speaker 1: we're gonna have another generation that's lost because the way
Speaker 1: in which people talk and interact with each other is
Speaker 1: so based on non reality. It's scary. The way kids
Speaker 1: think things are supposed to be based on what they
Speaker 1: see on TV, what they see on scripted reality TV
Speaker 1: shows and trying to get them to understand, no, that's
Speaker 1: not real. It's like it's very hard to jerking out
Speaker 1: of that because they're bombarded by it, whether it be
Speaker 1: the TV, internet, phone, they have it coming at them
Speaker 1: at all different angles. So we really do need that
Speaker 1: male perspective. We need strong male voices to be able
Speaker 1: to lead and show our kids that this is what
Speaker 1: you need to be. This is what truly makes you
Speaker 1: not just a man, but to be a successful adult
Speaker 1: contributing to society. And I think that's the conversation is
Speaker 1: it's not so much that we're it's unfortunate that we
Speaker 1: have to rebrand. Shouldn't we to be able to break
Speaker 1: down the system in general and say being kind and
Speaker 1: being compassionate is not a gender thing. And by the way,
Speaker 1: to be a strong man doesn't mean you have to
Speaker 1: be physically or emotionally strong. It just means that you
Speaker 1: are reliable in there, you know. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: that conversation that needs to be broken down, is we
Speaker 1: shouldn't be catering to the toxic masculinity. We should be
Speaker 1: breaking it down and redoing the mindset not only on
Speaker 1: men and young boys, but the whole system in itself,
Speaker 1: which is because exactly what you're saying. When we were
Speaker 1: in social work, when I was in the course, I remember,
Speaker 1: and I've talked about this before, I remember a professor
Speaker 1: saying specifically to the men in our class, which I
Speaker 1: think was a in full maybe three or four, saying,
Speaker 1: you guys are gonna get jobs faster than any other
Speaker 1: person here. You guys are gonna get money than any
Speaker 1: other person here, so you need to stick with it.
Speaker 1: That was kind of the painter. And I was like
Speaker 1: looking around, going and and she wasn't saying it as
Speaker 1: a good job, guys. She was just saying it as
Speaker 1: a fact. It is what it is. And I think
Speaker 1: you and I have seen that many times. Men who
Speaker 1: play the game, and what I mean by that, play
Speaker 1: the white supremacist game and being you know, in the
Speaker 1: middle line and sucking up and not make too many
Speaker 1: headways get promoted very very quickly and fast. Would you
Speaker 1: agree with that? I don't know about the white supremacy
Speaker 1: par It's just really about the boys quote. It really
Speaker 1: is just being able to play your position until a
Speaker 1: job opens up. Not just men, anyone just promoting their friends.
Speaker 1: Like we have a lot of turnover, yes, a lot
Speaker 1: of turnover and d JJ and when we have someone new,
Speaker 1: we know they're gonna bring in such as such and
Speaker 1: such a disposition in that position, in that position, which
Speaker 1: is fine to have your own team. But the nepotism,
Speaker 1: that's the word I was looking for. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of nepotism and that, and it really prevents people who
Speaker 1: have been there, who really know what the needs are
Speaker 1: for the organization to move forward, to move up and
Speaker 1: truly move the organization where it needs to be, whether
Speaker 1: it be male or female. But that happens a lot,
Speaker 1: right and I think what I'm saying about white supremacies
Speaker 1: literally playing the game. Whether in the state of Georgia,
Speaker 1: we know who our bosses and that's the governor. Oh,
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about that. A lot of
Speaker 1: the idea is you don't say too much, you don't
Speaker 1: say too loudly. We've definitely had coworkers say like, this
Speaker 1: is somewhat racist, you're treating this child like this whatever whatnot,
Speaker 1: and they get shut down very quickly and being like,
Speaker 1: you can't say that. So as long as you play
Speaker 1: the middle of the get like playing the middle of
Speaker 1: the road game and where you have to, you can't
Speaker 1: acknowledge too many wrongs because if you acknowledge too many wrongs,
Speaker 1: and you're showing spotlights. And and I know for me,
Speaker 1: when I worked within the Metro area, one of our
Speaker 1: county judges um stated that, yes, black young black boys
Speaker 1: are actually targeted in our area. And ninety somewhere between
Speaker 1: of the arrests and the cases were actually black boys.
Speaker 1: Like it was that significant. And we had they had
Speaker 1: the highest arrest record and detention record in the state.
Speaker 1: So that conversation in itself was part of the whole. Okay,
Speaker 1: don't say it too wildly. We don't want to say
Speaker 1: that too wildly, like who is being targeted? And therefore
Speaker 1: when you see and you know, you know who I'm
Speaker 1: talking about, our our buddy who gets a little too
Speaker 1: loud sometimes and it's real quick to call people out.
Speaker 1: He doesn't get promoted very well. But people who play
Speaker 1: the middle line play that mental game, and oftentimes it
Speaker 1: is to ignore those underlying issues. And and I know
Speaker 1: the last year and a half that I worked there.
Speaker 1: They had just started to talk about diversity and transgender
Speaker 1: kids and how to work with them, and the pushback
Speaker 1: that was there was really really disheartening. I know, you
Speaker 1: had to keep me in line so I wouldn't yell
Speaker 1: at people a few times. But that's kind of that
Speaker 1: mentality of like, how do we break this down in
Speaker 1: this system? And we kind of went away from the
Speaker 1: original point of women in this industry. But it's kind
Speaker 1: of the whole breakdown is there is a built up
Speaker 1: system that it's hard to let go of and obviously
Speaker 1: hard to let go of if we're diverting to another
Speaker 1: tactic instead of reinvesting into what is working right. You
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, I had you um that just
Speaker 1: so far as with women being in this field and
Speaker 1: and with the whole racial aspect of it, you do
Speaker 1: kind of have to play your position. You do have
Speaker 1: to be aware of what your leadership line looks like,
Speaker 1: um before you make any suggestions on what to do
Speaker 1: and how to move forward. Because the fact of the
Speaker 1: matter is, nothing that we're saying right now hasn't already
Speaker 1: been said before. They know what the needs are, they
Speaker 1: know what we're going through, they know what the data
Speaker 1: is because we submit it to them every month. The
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is, how are we going to
Speaker 1: tweet the budget to meet those needs? How do we
Speaker 1: justify moving the money from here to here? And do
Speaker 1: we have enough people to make that happen. That's where
Speaker 1: I see it the most. I'm not fearful of saying
Speaker 1: anything so far as what I believe that I need
Speaker 1: for my kids. It's just tiring saying the same thing
Speaker 1: over and over and over and over again, and you
Speaker 1: get burned out. So everyone knows what my my investment
Speaker 1: date is because I tell them all the time. I
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm gonna be doing come January twenty two,
Speaker 1: but I won't be here because I'm done. I'm done.
Speaker 1: I am done. I'm done. I'm just burned out. And
Speaker 1: and I try to and even when with saying that,
Speaker 1: I do try to recruit people into the organization that
Speaker 1: I think that would do well there. I said, Hey,
Speaker 1: if you're looking to further your education, if you're looking
Speaker 1: to do this, this, and this, this is the perfect
Speaker 1: position for you because not only are you getting the
Speaker 1: experience that you need, it stayable money. It might not
Speaker 1: be a lot of money, but it is stable money.
Speaker 1: You can work on your retirement. You can work on
Speaker 1: these things here and you still have time to work
Speaker 1: on your master's da da da da, have your kids whatever.
Speaker 1: It's flexible in that. But do not come into this
Speaker 1: if you don't have a love for people and children.
Speaker 1: If you don't have that at the core, you're going
Speaker 1: to mess up. You're going to mess up bad. You're
Speaker 1: gonna curse out the wrong somebody, and it's going to
Speaker 1: all fall on you. So those are you know, just
Speaker 1: kind of where we are with it so far as
Speaker 1: being aware of who you are, where you work, and
Speaker 1: what the leadership line looks like. So you just have to,
Speaker 1: you know, pick your battles. And that's that's definitely the conversation.
Speaker 1: And um and before we go, I did want to
Speaker 1: because you you were talking about it, and I want
Speaker 1: to talk a little more about it, about funding and
Speaker 1: about what budgeting looks like. Um. And we you know
Speaker 1: it on a smaller scale, we know it on a
Speaker 1: state scale. And I will say we got to see
Speaker 1: a little more than most people in there because we
Speaker 1: did handle the budget a lot more than others have.
Speaker 1: But the one of the things that I have we
Speaker 1: have been thinking and as we talk about all of
Speaker 1: the things that are happening in the country and things
Speaker 1: that are trying to be rea apter, people are trying
Speaker 1: to find accountability within the government, within the systems all
Speaker 1: over the country, and one of them, again, we talked
Speaker 1: about defunding the police and what does that look like?
Speaker 1: And it sounds so harsh at the beginning, and I
Speaker 1: know everybody's like, what what we need police? We need
Speaker 1: law enforcement. Not everybody, but a lot of people are
Speaker 1: on that level. And I'm assuming especially in Georgia, UM,
Speaker 1: if you go outside of the metro area, people will
Speaker 1: be like what you know what UM? Because But one
Speaker 1: of the things that we wanted to talk about is
Speaker 1: when we had part Cannon, who was the representative UM
Speaker 1: for Georgia, she did talk about the fact that there
Speaker 1: was going to be over a billion dollars of a
Speaker 1: budget cut in the state and knowing that what that
Speaker 1: looked like and where that would go, and the immediate
Speaker 1: places that it would go would be for mental health treatment, uh,
Speaker 1: things like DJ for Department of Old Health, for defacts.
Speaker 1: They're cutting workers, are cutting teachers, budgets, all of these
Speaker 1: things that you're like, wait, these are the places that
Speaker 1: need the most, that needs it the most. And the
Speaker 1: first thing that when we were looking at it and
Speaker 1: they're talking about giving incentive pay police departments, and the
Speaker 1: question comes into but why. I get that they're risking
Speaker 1: their lives, but essentially so are defects workers. They go
Speaker 1: out without help to a dangerous situation. So our DJJ
Speaker 1: workers because we as probation officers had to go out
Speaker 1: to homes and sit with people and be threatened. I
Speaker 1: had two kids with me, like several times. I remember
Speaker 1: another coworker who the kid came back. It was like,
Speaker 1: I know where I went to your house, I saw
Speaker 1: your car, you know, making threats. Um. And it was
Speaker 1: a power play for sure. But the fact of the
Speaker 1: matter is, yes, I understand we came in knowing that
Speaker 1: this could be dangerous and things like this happened. But
Speaker 1: we don't see the same support. I don't know. You
Speaker 1: tell me as the government seems to be supporting the
Speaker 1: police department in budgetary levels. Um. So the question is
Speaker 1: why are we not seeing that same level of support
Speaker 1: and why is it so hard for people to believe
Speaker 1: that it should happen that way? Because people don't understand
Speaker 1: defund the police and they're too lazy to google it. UM.
Speaker 1: I think it's just it's a lot of information, and
Speaker 1: you know that will for ignorant. People are comfortable in
Speaker 1: what they know and anything that they can find to
Speaker 1: reinforce what they already know. They're cool with. So far
Speaker 1: as learning anything new and taking on anyone else's pain history, culture,
Speaker 1: that's too much. I don't have time for that. I
Speaker 1: need to be reinforced and what I already know and
Speaker 1: feel so I can sleep good tonight. Simple. So with
Speaker 1: defunding the police will, Like I said before, I know
Speaker 1: you hate this, but we got to rebrand this thing.
Speaker 1: We have to just get people to understand what it
Speaker 1: is and what it means and what that truly looks like. UM.
Speaker 1: I can remember being a kid in the late eighties
Speaker 1: early nineties. I can go to the Recreation Center UM
Speaker 1: down the street from my house during the summer and
Speaker 1: be entertained every day for free. You know, they had
Speaker 1: little art classes, they had basketball, they had brisbee league, volleyball,
Speaker 1: anything that you can think of. They had people there
Speaker 1: teaching us with us for free snacks included. We need
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff back because our kids are board. UM.
Speaker 1: We still have a lot of single family homes, but
Speaker 1: we don't have any outlets for them. So that's where
Speaker 1: we need to readjust how we're looking at how to
Speaker 1: help these kids. Instead of punitive, we need to be
Speaker 1: more prevention. And it can't be lame stuff. They're not
Speaker 1: going to participate in that. They have too many things
Speaker 1: coming at them. Um So far as with the TikTok
Speaker 1: and you know all the things on you know, on
Speaker 1: the internet that keeps them entertained, we have to compete.
Speaker 1: I like that you sound as old as me when
Speaker 1: you say the TikTok and the internets. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about? Like, did I say it that way too?
Speaker 1: I do charged to like that too, because I hate
Speaker 1: it so much. I hate it so much when Snapchat
Speaker 1: came out, like what the hell is this? And why
Speaker 1: stop it? Stop it? But it's all entertaining to them
Speaker 1: and they all know what it is, and so we
Speaker 1: need a common form like that, and it has to
Speaker 1: be constantly changing it updated. We can't be lazy about
Speaker 1: this because we're talking about our future. Um So, when
Speaker 1: we talk about defunding the police, we have to really
Speaker 1: explain what that means and how it UM can benefit
Speaker 1: other programs UM so far as with mental health and
Speaker 1: with our kids and the residential treatment programs and keeping
Speaker 1: these kids out of your house. Our kids get bored,
Speaker 1: you know, they have an older person, tell them, Hey,
Speaker 1: if you go in this house and you still such
Speaker 1: and such and such such, you're not just gonna get
Speaker 1: as much time as me. And they're using our kids
Speaker 1: because they don't have anything else to do. So we
Speaker 1: have to get people to understand that, UM understand it.
Speaker 1: One care about it is two different things. I can't
Speaker 1: make anybody care, but at least if I can of
Speaker 1: the information out there, they won't be as negative towards
Speaker 1: the whole. Defunding the police, maybe we can call it
Speaker 1: something else, reappropriate. I don't know that. That's probably worse. Ye,
Speaker 1: Can we borrow some money from you? You know, don't
Speaker 1: say borrow, We're gonna pay it back. That is exactly
Speaker 1: what it is. And and the biggest part of this
Speaker 1: is even though we haven't we've kind of talked about
Speaker 1: women's issues in this, this is a women's issues, This
Speaker 1: is a family issue. This is an issue that we
Speaker 1: need to talk about as the whole because we do
Speaker 1: see cases and I've seen people talk about why they
Speaker 1: don't like social workers because they all the people they've
Speaker 1: interacted with social workers, all they care about is removing
Speaker 1: children and breaking up families. And the conversations into that
Speaker 1: is this is the lesser evil. This is the conversation
Speaker 1: why we have to talk about why this is not
Speaker 1: a good option. We can't and unfortunately we're talking about
Speaker 1: it with our presidential election. The lesser evil? What is
Speaker 1: the better choice or what it's not the worst choice, essentially,
Speaker 1: And that's the problem. We shouldn't have to do that.
Speaker 1: We shouldn't have to have this conversation. When I worked
Speaker 1: with families, when I did the fact cases and I
Speaker 1: did investigations, I worked my ass off trying to keep
Speaker 1: them together because for me, seeing kids and knowing these
Speaker 1: kids were removed from a home was more traumatic oftentimes
Speaker 1: than the abuse or the neglect that was happening in
Speaker 1: the home. The only times I would ever remove them
Speaker 1: is because I could not find the family and because
Speaker 1: maybe the child have gotten lost or whatever whatnot, or
Speaker 1: because it was a life and death situation. But the
Speaker 1: problem with all of this is there is no better option.
Speaker 1: We have no funding. With the funding that used to
Speaker 1: go to families to help place other kids in other
Speaker 1: like with family members kind of disappeared, and we need
Speaker 1: to talk about that. Why don't we talk about how
Speaker 1: family should be helping other like family members. UM, A
Speaker 1: lot of people can't afford it. I would have so
Speaker 1: many grandparents and so many aunts and uncle's day I
Speaker 1: would love to help. I cannot have another child in
Speaker 1: my home because I cannot afford it. And because the
Speaker 1: system has no money. The only way we could give
Speaker 1: money is by taking custody. And that's a whole other
Speaker 1: issue about why this is an ugly, ugly thing and
Speaker 1: why we need to break down this money and why
Speaker 1: is it being allotted in billions and billions of dollars
Speaker 1: to one place that doesn't seem to be improving anything.
Speaker 1: If you look at the numbers of homicide, if you
Speaker 1: look at the numbers of stuff, if you look at
Speaker 1: the numbers of crime, it hasn't really gone down. You're
Speaker 1: you're one correct, But that just lets us know that
Speaker 1: the system of repression is working perfectly, is working beautifully,
Speaker 1: is working exactly the way they set it up to.
Speaker 1: And I don't think until we um change the the
Speaker 1: guards of the money that's not gonna change. Um, that's
Speaker 1: why we have to It's kind of like a balancing act.
Speaker 1: We've got to keep our eyes on our kids, but
Speaker 1: we also have to encourage the adults. Hey, okay, I
Speaker 1: need you to vote. Man, I need you not only
Speaker 1: to vote, but I need you to be a thought
Speaker 1: or voter. I need you to go to to the
Speaker 1: Secretary of State website and actually look up who's running. Look,
Speaker 1: we see what's on the ballot before you get there.
Speaker 1: These are things that it's not information that's hidden from you,
Speaker 1: but it's not advertised. And we have to do a
Speaker 1: better job of educating. Um, those who are maybe want
Speaker 1: to just don't know how to start. Especially our young
Speaker 1: people that are just now starting to vote in this
Speaker 1: new election. We've got to guide them. Got oh god,
Speaker 1: that's that's just a nightmare on top of a nightmare.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm all about bottom line. So the
Speaker 1: moment he said that slavery was a choice was that
Speaker 1: it was a rap for me. I was drunking. I
Speaker 1: was done after that rap. So there's nothing else good
Speaker 1: for you that can come from that vein at all.
Speaker 1: But that's all, um. I would have to stay on
Speaker 1: that we got to do better with this balancing where
Speaker 1: we are. Don't forget our kids, is try to move
Speaker 1: it forward to the future. We've got to vote these
Speaker 1: people out and start a new and pay attention. And
Speaker 1: and then one of the things that you as you
Speaker 1: were saying, looking at the ballot, go to the Secretary
Speaker 1: of state, state site, look at your local elections. And
Speaker 1: we've said this many of times, which is why we
Speaker 1: brought on part Cannon, who was a local representative I
Speaker 1: really and I loved her anyway, but all of those things,
Speaker 1: it was because these are the people that are controlling
Speaker 1: a lot more than you know. The city council. That
Speaker 1: Atlantis council right now is in control o over seventy
Speaker 1: three million dollars of our budget and they're talking about
Speaker 1: allotting that to the police, are allowing that and not
Speaker 1: even having a conversation about why we're doing so. This
Speaker 1: is kind of that level of like you have to
Speaker 1: pay attention and you have to read those ballots. You
Speaker 1: need to pay attention to who's representing you and why,
Speaker 1: and if you think you can do it a better job,
Speaker 1: please run. I agree, Oh my god, please run. I
Speaker 1: will give you money if you I'm just playing. I'm
Speaker 1: not playing. But all of those things I love. I
Speaker 1: think it's such an important thing, and I would Corney,
Speaker 1: this is why I talked to you. And of course
Speaker 1: you're doing any But like Courtney and I have been
Speaker 1: on this track for the past seven years. You know
Speaker 1: each other that. Yeah, we've created our own two person therapy,
Speaker 1: trauma therapy UM. So this is where I get my
Speaker 1: trauma out. This is where we talk. This is I
Speaker 1: think you and I have had the most frank and
Speaker 1: honest conversations about not only obviously this, but about race,
Speaker 1: about about UM culture, shock, and I being the one
Speaker 1: of two Asian people, one of three Asian people in
Speaker 1: our agency minority within the minority. But she held it well.
Speaker 1: Though she's a strong lady, I'm too sassy. You can't
Speaker 1: mess with me. No, you are a word assassin. So
Speaker 1: people aren't messing with you too often because they already
Speaker 1: know that you are locked and loaded. We do have
Speaker 1: a little bit more for you listeners, but first we
Speaker 1: have one more cup break for work from our sponsors,
Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Okay, Andie, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 1: do you have anything that you want to add as
Speaker 1: we have completely overtaken this is what happens that I
Speaker 1: love it. It's great. I've I've learned so much. UM.
Speaker 1: I did when I touch on UM because we have
Speaker 1: done an episode on nonprofits before, and I know that's
Speaker 1: not exactly the same as government work, but there are
Speaker 1: a lot of similarities. And one of the very uh
Speaker 1: disheartening statistics about that is women. There is this really
Speaker 1: high rate of burnout. UM. Is that something that you've seen? Yes, UM,
Speaker 1: I also worked at a group on before I started
Speaker 1: any of business. I was getting my bachelor's. I worked
Speaker 1: at a group home and the multiple roles that you
Speaker 1: have to play, UM in that is astounding. I was
Speaker 1: the weekend living counselor, and that's exactly what I did.
Speaker 1: I lived there on the weekend. I was the twenty
Speaker 1: four seven type position. I was there with the girls
Speaker 1: all day and I was responsible for meals on the weekend.
Speaker 1: And if they had a weekend job, I had to
Speaker 1: drive them there. If they wanted to go to the
Speaker 1: amusement park, I drove them there. I had to issue med's,
Speaker 1: make sure that no one was fighting. I had to
Speaker 1: make sure no one was in a corner somewhere because
Speaker 1: you know there's a lot of gay or to stay
Speaker 1: even in the group homes on cabineing. You have to
Speaker 1: keep your eyes on so much. And that is the
Speaker 1: issue with any type of social service job. You're wearing
Speaker 1: more than one hat because there isn't any backup because
Speaker 1: the staffing is limited, because most of the funding is
Speaker 1: going to keeping that whole thing running, making sure the
Speaker 1: girls can have clothes, food, um, getting to UM appointments
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, you do receive like your payment from
Speaker 1: your dj J and your defects, but you still are
Speaker 1: dependent upon donations. And being that this was the Methodist
Speaker 1: uh background, we were depended upon donations from the church
Speaker 1: and trying to make sure that our girls were presentable
Speaker 1: for the ones who chose to go to church and
Speaker 1: you know, interacted well with the people in the church.
Speaker 1: There's just so much that can go wrong if we
Speaker 1: don't meet that donation marker. So and I wasn't really
Speaker 1: a part of the you know, with the money and
Speaker 1: things like that, but I could see how it affected
Speaker 1: us if we didn't get it. So far as um,
Speaker 1: what trips we were planning versus what we went last year,
Speaker 1: versus where we went the next year, things of that nature,
Speaker 1: whether we got the new van or not, or did
Speaker 1: we have to stick with the old van and wake
Speaker 1: sure that it was fixed. So you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: a lot of ah you have. You really do burn
Speaker 1: yourself out trying to make sure that you're giving them
Speaker 1: everything that you mean, everything that they need and making
Speaker 1: sure that you put in your case notes and things
Speaker 1: like that. There's a lot of work. And I would
Speaker 1: put in that we exhaustion, like the literal exhaustion from
Speaker 1: taxing yourself emotionally, whether you're investing in kids and heartbroken
Speaker 1: because of death, of failure somehow of um, something going
Speaker 1: wrong UM. For us, oftentimes, if a kid became incarcerated
Speaker 1: after leaving DJJ, that was like a death almost to us.
Speaker 1: We felt that was our failure somehow, and that in
Speaker 1: itself was an emotional uh trauma for us. And on
Speaker 1: top of that the actual trauma of being attacked, perhaps
Speaker 1: are being uh verbally abused, which happened often often UM
Speaker 1: or whether or not that you're trying you're doing the
Speaker 1: making the best decision, because again this is one of
Speaker 1: those things that you never know the best decision. And
Speaker 1: for me, as the ending came, I was like, I
Speaker 1: am not giving everything I have for this job, and
Speaker 1: though you shouldn't have to, because it's still just a
Speaker 1: job that in itself causes anxiety and emotional trauma and
Speaker 1: physical trauma. To be fair, but when I was working
Speaker 1: in Defects, I was had so many panic attacks, I
Speaker 1: had so many sleepless nights. I was not it was nightmare.
Speaker 1: It was a constant nightmare where I would drive or
Speaker 1: have dreams about my kids. And I still actually have
Speaker 1: dreams about some of those kids. Um, because you you're
Speaker 1: just scared of making the wrong decision, and because lives
Speaker 1: are on the line. It's not like we could come
Speaker 1: and that even though this is our job, we can
Speaker 1: walk away from it. Walking away from it. Maybe that
Speaker 1: we've not we've neglected kids somehow in between, that we
Speaker 1: left them slip because we had to go to you know,
Speaker 1: practice here, or we're trying to live our lives so
Speaker 1: we're gonna put our our phone down, and then you
Speaker 1: missed that phone call because of ever. And I know
Speaker 1: that we didn't as much support as we may have
Speaker 1: gotten from our immediate bosses. We weren't supported on the
Speaker 1: bigger picture and that's also exhausting in itself. And as
Speaker 1: we talk about police being respected in this level and
Speaker 1: they're qualified immunity, that's a whole other conversation. I actually
Speaker 1: had to take out insurance as a social worker at
Speaker 1: Defects just in case I got sued. That was it
Speaker 1: so that I could pay the liability. It came out
Speaker 1: of my money. So that to me was like, why
Speaker 1: wouldn't that be a thing, especially if I'm not the
Speaker 1: one that caused it. It's half the times of decisions
Speaker 1: are from the higher ups, whether it's our supervisors, whether
Speaker 1: it's judges, whether it's court systems, or whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: state mandate. There's all of these things. And a part
Speaker 1: of that is because we do have to have we
Speaker 1: do have cases with mental health issues, and we don't
Speaker 1: have any type of resources except for one organization that
Speaker 1: can only handle so much. And the severity has to
Speaker 1: be so high that they won't type unless it's there.
Speaker 1: But it has to get to the already bad point
Speaker 1: in order for it to be resolved. And all of
Speaker 1: those days caused a lot of burnout. And I think
Speaker 1: for women in's self, when you talk about women who
Speaker 1: accord you are a caretaker. I'm not necessarily a caretaker
Speaker 1: because I got a doggy, but he just can do
Speaker 1: like he's thought. She's fine. But being a caretaker on
Speaker 1: top of that, that's another reason why burnout happens, because
Speaker 1: you're being pulled in so many directions that you're not
Speaker 1: able to do your job. And that if you are
Speaker 1: someone who is sympathetic and had or an impact that
Speaker 1: destroys you, that can literally destroy you physically, emotionally, all
Speaker 1: of those ways. Yeah, you know, I'll go all forever.
Speaker 1: You gotta have questions, but yeah, and I think, and
Speaker 1: that can be any job when you're not satisfied. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: for those in human services and all of those and
Speaker 1: counseling you, being disappointed or sad FID often means something
Speaker 1: is wrong in the system and other people are in
Speaker 1: harm's way. Are being women in this field, we always
Speaker 1: do what we have to do anyways, and so we
Speaker 1: are teachers, we are mothers, We are the backbones this
Speaker 1: whole thing. But we meet help. So any help we
Speaker 1: can get, we take good help. That is sometimes the
Speaker 1: kind of okay help. We have to settle for the
Speaker 1: okay help that brings us to the end. Of this interview.
Speaker 1: It was such a delight. I'm so glad that I
Speaker 1: got to virtually meet Courtney. I know it made me
Speaker 1: happy too. I'm sorry when we get to talking, I
Speaker 1: understand it's hard to slow down, especially when we get
Speaker 1: really into the issues. And even though like we may
Speaker 1: not always agree on like terminology and the back stories,
Speaker 1: but we do have a really good open conversation about
Speaker 1: what does this look like? How does this look like
Speaker 1: when we break it down, even though we may not
Speaker 1: be able to implement it, Yeah, we at least have
Speaker 1: that conversation and being able to refresh in knowing that
Speaker 1: we are in a good headspace. You know, I do
Speaker 1: love that she's my girl. I love her so much.
Speaker 1: She's fantastic. Love the people I've been working with, just
Speaker 1: so you know, everybody, everybody, I just have so much love.
Speaker 1: But I also feel very fortunate for the people I
Speaker 1: work with. UM and I it was very um enlightening
Speaker 1: and important conversation have and I'm glad we had it,
Speaker 1: so thank you for arranging it, Samantha. Yeah, if if
Speaker 1: any of you listeners have any stories you want to share,
Speaker 1: if you're also working in this field or a similar field,
Speaker 1: or you know well, we love hearing from you no
Speaker 1: matter what. Right tell us what's going on, what your
Speaker 1: thoughts are, how you think things could be changing, like,
Speaker 1: there's so many ideas that's not being spoken yet. Let
Speaker 1: us know what your thoughts are. Yes, yes, please let
Speaker 1: us know. You can email us at SEFT Media, mom
Speaker 1: Stuff and I hurt Mia dot com. You can find
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at stuff I Never Told You or
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks. It's always to
Speaker 1: our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks Andrew, and thanks to
Speaker 1: you for listening Stuff I Never Told You this production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart
Speaker 1: Radio is heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,