Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I welcome to Steph.
Speaker 1: I'm never told your protection of I Heart Radio for
Speaker 1: today's question, what I want to know? Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: What is something a sex smith or belief that you
Speaker 1: held that you later learned you were way way off? Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think if you want, I can go first,
Speaker 1: because I got a good one. Yeah, you go first.
Speaker 1: So I believed, and this isn't really sex, but it's
Speaker 1: a misunderstanding of your female body. I believed that you
Speaker 1: had your baby came out the belly button, and that
Speaker 1: administration was a myth, and if in fact it was real,
Speaker 1: I thought it happened in your ears. And the only
Speaker 1: reason I learned this wasn't true was because I kind
Speaker 1: of was like joking about, well, you know it comes
Speaker 1: out your ears and your and my mom's like, um,
Speaker 1: well yeah, then yes, of course we all give birth
Speaker 1: out our horb our ears. And I was like, oh no, wait,
Speaker 1: why did you think it was your ears? I because
Speaker 1: I thought, I literally have friends who are mad about this.
Speaker 1: But I thought, because my brother never went to administraution,
Speaker 1: that it was a myth. But he did have like
Speaker 1: his ears would bleed and my ears would bleed, um,
Speaker 1: and so I thought, maybe that's what people were talking about. Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. And then when I actually did have my
Speaker 1: first period, I thought, you only got it once. And
Speaker 1: when happened again, that's when I was devastated. When I learned, oh,
Speaker 1: this is okay, this is forever until you still draw
Speaker 1: essentially okay, Wow, that's I have never that's the first
Speaker 1: for me as a miss or a misunderstanding of that
Speaker 1: as the first I've ever heard that as an explanation.
Speaker 1: Not the belly button part, because you know, I think
Speaker 1: we all kind of believe that because I did too
Speaker 1: follows younger obviously they came out of the belly button um,
Speaker 1: but the ear wow. Yeah. I honestly can't remember, because
Speaker 1: I was a kid that would learn things and then
Speaker 1: tell people like I was the bad kid. Uh, and
Speaker 1: that was my rebellion because I was very I was
Speaker 1: sexualized really young. So I can't remember not knowing at
Speaker 1: least the basics kind of of sex. Except for the
Speaker 1: fact that I don't know, I can't remember. Ah man,
Speaker 1: I can think of so many I had, um, but
Speaker 1: one we're going to talk about in this is I thought, uh,
Speaker 1: sex was just supposed to hurt for women. I think
Speaker 1: that's what I believed as well, that that sex would
Speaker 1: always hurt for women and it didn't matter um as
Speaker 1: well as, of course, the beliefs that women can't say no,
Speaker 1: as well as that they are obligated have sex. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I know the negative things. So at the gal
Speaker 1: at the gate, nasty gross a lot not nasty grows,
Speaker 1: but really sad nasty misconceptions of sex, but not necessarily
Speaker 1: myths of sex. So I did believe that those things
Speaker 1: made sense in my reality. But yeah, the ear and
Speaker 1: the period, that's a new one for me. I told
Speaker 1: all my friends that they thought it too. They did too,
Speaker 1: that misinformation. I gave bad information. And let me tell
Speaker 1: you how many angry phone calls I got when my
Speaker 1: friends got their first period. Oh my god. I had
Speaker 1: to apologize many, many, many times you lied to me.
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I guess some of those things I
Speaker 1: didn't think about, Like with periods, I didn't even think
Speaker 1: about it. And then like coming because I didn't know
Speaker 1: about periods at all. And then as you learn about
Speaker 1: sucks and I'm like, oh, this is gonna suck. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I in my class group. I matured faster, so people
Speaker 1: would always ask me questions about those kinds of things,
Speaker 1: like my friends would, so they I think I learned
Speaker 1: about it from them, But then I had no clearly
Speaker 1: no information, no useful information to share. But I too thought,
Speaker 1: you know, I matured early, early, so I thought I
Speaker 1: would know, And I hadn't had my period yet, so
Speaker 1: there must not be real. My brother never had one,
Speaker 1: so it's all a big lie. One of the big
Speaker 1: lies about female bodies that I learned as a kid
Speaker 1: because it was like such a big deal. And of
Speaker 1: course this is again the whole pitting women as objects
Speaker 1: and procreation machines. Was that minute you have your period,
Speaker 1: as a minute you become a woman, and it should
Speaker 1: be celebrated or it should be shamed, one of those
Speaker 1: two things, nothing in between. And so when I didn't
Speaker 1: get that, well, I kind of got shamed in the
Speaker 1: sense of like you don't need to make a big
Speaker 1: deal of it type of thing, but not like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is awful, you did something wrong. But yeah, that
Speaker 1: was a misconception I had that it was that big
Speaker 1: of a deal. And I specifically remember a Cosby episode
Speaker 1: in which one of the girls get their period and
Speaker 1: they start talking about having hips and being sexy now,
Speaker 1: and the mom getting so upset because she wanted to
Speaker 1: celebrate with her and becoming a woman and make this
Speaker 1: whole day of being feminine and a woman. And I'm
Speaker 1: like what and thinking that's the way it should be.
Speaker 1: And then the whole misconception of this makes you a
Speaker 1: woman is so untrue, which is dated way back in
Speaker 1: the idea that the minute you have your period is
Speaker 1: the minute you start trying for children, because that's what
Speaker 1: you're good for. As we know this, women were sold
Speaker 1: off at that point of being a woman because they
Speaker 1: bled quote unquote but yeah, huh years huh yes, So
Speaker 1: clearly I could have used better information as a child,
Speaker 1: and I could have used the book we're talking about today.
Speaker 1: Brief trigger warning before we get into this. There's just
Speaker 1: mentions of a sexual assault and trauma. Nothing too big,
Speaker 1: but just put that out there. Um. Today we are
Speaker 1: talking about Emily Nagaski's Come as You Are, the surprising
Speaker 1: new science that will transform your sex life, which a
Speaker 1: couple of you have written in about and suggested so
Speaker 1: we always take in the book club recommendations are pretty
Speaker 1: much any recommendation, so keep those coming, thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Nagaski is a sex educator who is passionate and if
Speaker 1: you read her book as well as listen to any
Speaker 1: of the audio that she does, she's definitely passionate about
Speaker 1: sharing her knowledge and using science and evidence to improve
Speaker 1: our understanding of women's sexual well being, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: And in her exchanges with women and students, one of
Speaker 1: the number one things that she hears from women who
Speaker 1: have taken her classes some version of quote I learned
Speaker 1: I am normal, which is super nice to hear because
Speaker 1: you want to know that you're not strange and off balance,
Speaker 1: and that all of us vary and that's normal too,
Speaker 1: and all the same parts organizing different ways is the
Speaker 1: mantra throughout this book. Yes uh. And the book uses
Speaker 1: science and the diverse stories of real women to unpack
Speaker 1: so much of the cultural shame and discuss women have
Speaker 1: been taught around our bodies and around sex and how
Speaker 1: we can unlearn those toxic messages and practice self compassion.
Speaker 1: Like with worksheets, there's activities which both Samantha and I
Speaker 1: are Berrian. Did you do those? I was gonna ask
Speaker 1: that earlier, Yeah, I did too. And I was sitting
Speaker 1: there and doing those with the I didn't write everything
Speaker 1: out because it was, oh my, okay, this is too much.
Speaker 1: I'm not ready for all of this. But it's a
Speaker 1: great workbook because she does have a workbook with it too,
Speaker 1: But like, it's a great exercise for couples who are
Speaker 1: trying to go through their own miscommunky shows and understanding
Speaker 1: of each other. So it is nice. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: was very enlightening. Oh it was yeah, absolutely Uh And
Speaker 1: according to Reddit users in our slash sex, this book
Speaker 1: transformed a lot of their sex lives. Um, there's a
Speaker 1: whole conversation on there about it. Uh, and it's very encouraging.
Speaker 1: I'm very happy for a lot of them, right. Um.
Speaker 1: And I want to say, as someone I've been pretty open,
Speaker 1: I don't particularly want sex. I've never had sex. I enjoyed.
Speaker 1: I still found this very very interesting and enlightening. I
Speaker 1: learned a lot a lot. Uh. In fact, I'm kind
Speaker 1: of like almost everything she touches on this in this book,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that could be a whole episode.
Speaker 1: That could be a whole episode. Yeah, So we really
Speaker 1: had to condense it for this book club, but I'm
Speaker 1: sure we'll return to some of the topics she touches
Speaker 1: on future episodes. UM. And it definitely helped me make
Speaker 1: sense of things I've experienced with sexual assault, UM and
Speaker 1: also what turns me on, which I get so many
Speaker 1: questions about this because my friends just sort of don't understand,
Speaker 1: and that's totally fine, but it was this helped me
Speaker 1: understand myself even more. Yeah, yeah, because I have experienced
Speaker 1: a lot of confusion around around that and around what
Speaker 1: I thought was a very abnormal thing to be turned
Speaker 1: on by essentially not really. Yeah, she does a great
Speaker 1: job and she I love her one line when she
Speaker 1: talks about her friend, when she says, I just don't
Speaker 1: want sex and that's okay. Of course I think that
Speaker 1: unfolded to her and her partner, but it was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly what should be said. If you don't want
Speaker 1: sex was not abnormal. You don't have to have sex,
Speaker 1: and that's okay too. I did. Look, I know we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk more about it, but that was that made
Speaker 1: me think of you, because I know we've talked to
Speaker 1: many of times about feeling you feeling like it's wrong
Speaker 1: that you didn't want to have sex, and felt guilty
Speaker 1: about that, So I did love that line, but uh,
Speaker 1: it was tw when she wrote this, and I think
Speaker 1: we've kind of come little ways, not a long ways.
Speaker 1: But she does have a caveat, which is quote for
Speaker 1: most of the time. When I say women in this book,
Speaker 1: I mean people who are born in female bodies, were
Speaker 1: raised as girls, and now have the social role in
Speaker 1: psychological identity of women. And there are plenty of women
Speaker 1: who don't fit one or more of those categories. But
Speaker 1: there's two little research on trans and gender queer sexual
Speaker 1: functioning for me to say with certainty whether it what's
Speaker 1: true about since gender women's sexual well being is also
Speaker 1: true for trans folks. Yes, and there's actually some been
Speaker 1: some conversation around that recently, right, And she tells a
Speaker 1: little bit into it about gender queer sexuality. But yeah,
Speaker 1: we have seen an opening of new studies as of
Speaker 1: recent But I hate that caveat. Yeah, yeah, that's unfortunate, right,
Speaker 1: but it's true sometimes what you don't have you don't know. Um. Also, Okay,
Speaker 1: there are plenty of metaphors and puns throughout, so be
Speaker 1: prepared and excited. Just the usage of the term the
Speaker 1: guard and it's not what you think she was. But
Speaker 1: when I initially harder say the Garden, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh no, oh yeah, what's there's some movie reference you
Speaker 1: throw in there? And I was like whoa. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: was like, okay, okay, we're going completely from a different basis. Okay,
Speaker 1: I liked it. I liked it. So the book is
Speaker 1: divided into four parts. One the not so basic basics
Speaker 1: to sex and Context, Three, Sex and Action, and for
Speaker 1: Ecstasy for Everybody. Each of these parts are then further
Speaker 1: broken down into topics and yes, it is complete with
Speaker 1: worksheets and activities. And I will say, um, it's not
Speaker 1: a difficult read at all, but it's very dense, like
Speaker 1: you're learning a lot in a short Like every sentence
Speaker 1: you're like, wait, let me sit with this person, right,
Speaker 1: And that definitely comes in with like, while we tell
Speaker 1: you there's puns and force, there's also a lot of
Speaker 1: science behind it and a lot of evidence based. So
Speaker 1: therefore you're gonna get too technical terms and you have
Speaker 1: to kind of re assess the words over and over
Speaker 1: again because you don't technically apply these things in sexuality
Speaker 1: most of the t So, yeah, you definitely have a
Speaker 1: moment like let me go back. What did she just say,
Speaker 1: let me look at this. Okay, cool, cool, cool, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And she does a great job of explaining it. It's
Speaker 1: just dance, not not difficult, but dan in a good way.
Speaker 1: Surprisingly human sexuality, there's a lot to be said and
Speaker 1: a lot of science there. Um. One of the first
Speaker 1: things that book tackles is the man is default miss,
Speaker 1: something we've talked about so much on this show, and
Speaker 1: how damaging that is and has been in making women
Speaker 1: believe something is wrong with them if their experience doesn't
Speaker 1: match men's, and particularly in male partners. Nagaski calls this
Speaker 1: men's sexuality light like this belief that we've treated women's
Speaker 1: sexuality as exactly the same as men's sexuality but lesser. Right,
Speaker 1: whether it's lesser as in doesn't mean as much, and
Speaker 1: or there's something wrong with those women because they can't match, Yes,
Speaker 1: and with the science for a long time hasn't been
Speaker 1: there because we've just assumed, you know, science has just
Speaker 1: assumed women are the same. So as a part of this,
Speaker 1: women surprise, have been told a lot of lies, she writes,
Speaker 1: just relaxed. They've been told have a glass of wine,
Speaker 1: or women just don't want sex that much, get over it?
Speaker 1: Or sometimes sex hers. Can't you just ignore it? I've
Speaker 1: heard every single lot of this, every single one. Uh.
Speaker 1: And this idea that women should feel shame around their
Speaker 1: sexuality is an old idea. According to her quote, medieval
Speaker 1: anatomist called women's external genitals the pudendum, a word derived
Speaker 1: from the Latin hoodera, meaning to make ashamed. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure I butchered that pronunciation. I did not take Latin.
Speaker 1: I didn't take Latin either. You're better with languages than
Speaker 1: I am. Uh. And since has been this long history
Speaker 1: of misinformation of just the bare minimum of science and
Speaker 1: understanding around the female body. The book starts with the
Speaker 1: not so basic basics, so examination into female body parts,
Speaker 1: how they work, and how all of that interacts with
Speaker 1: the brain. And one of the key parts of this
Speaker 1: section is the clitterest dot dot dot, So, she writes,
Speaker 1: the clitterest is, Oh, here we go. The hokey pokey
Speaker 1: is what it's all about. Two turntables and a microphone
Speaker 1: is where it's at, a visa card, It's everywhere you
Speaker 1: want to be. Is your grand central station of erotic sensation,
Speaker 1: averaging just one eighth the size of a penis, yet
Speaker 1: loaded with nearly double the nerve endings. It can range
Speaker 1: in size from a barely visible p to a fair
Speaker 1: sized ghirkin and anywhere in between, and it's all normal,
Speaker 1: all beautiful. Unlike the penis, the clitter sists only job
Speaker 1: is sensation. The penis says four jobs, sensation, penetration, ejaculation
Speaker 1: in your nation, two different ways of functioning, one shared
Speaker 1: biological origin. Yeah, and if that wasn't enough, she really
Speaker 1: hammers home the power of knowing where your clearest is,
Speaker 1: not just the clears in general, but yours. And in fact,
Speaker 1: of the first things she suggests is is getting a
Speaker 1: mirror and looking at your genitals and finding it. As
Speaker 1: a sex educator, she also discusses the difficulty of finding
Speaker 1: images of Volva's that aren't thin, white shaped, and how
Speaker 1: that impacts what we all think Volva's should look like,
Speaker 1: because again, there is so much variation. But if you're
Speaker 1: only getting shown this one type, this one type of image,
Speaker 1: then of course you're going to form in your head,
Speaker 1: going to compare how yours is different. Another thing this
Speaker 1: section spends time on is the hymen, and there are
Speaker 1: so so many myths and powerful stories about the hymen,
Speaker 1: most of them to control women. The idea the hyman
Speaker 1: ism marker of precious, precious virginity, which in itself is
Speaker 1: biologically meaningless. There's even hyman reconstructive sir injury. Women have
Speaker 1: been killed over not having one, are told they couldn't
Speaker 1: have been raped because their hyman isn't damaged. So some
Speaker 1: hyman myths. She goes into that it breaks and stays broken.
Speaker 1: Everyone has a hyman, which isn't true. The size changes
Speaker 1: based on penetration, it doesn't, it bleeds, it usually doesn't.
Speaker 1: The bleeding is usually a vaginal tearing due to lack
Speaker 1: of lubrication. But again, I've heard all of those things too,
Speaker 1: that precious precious jewel. Yeah, we have so much more
Speaker 1: to go over, but first we have a quick break
Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank
Speaker 1: you sponsor. Right. So, Another key aspect of the book
Speaker 1: are sexual response models, particularly the dual control model. While
Speaker 1: earlier models didn't accoun for desire, this one does. Finally,
Speaker 1: As the name suggests, it comprises two main parts, sex
Speaker 1: accelerators and brakes. To get more specific, you have the
Speaker 1: sexual excitation system, says and the sexual inhibition system SIS
Speaker 1: that vary from person to person. The SESS takes and
Speaker 1: evaluates sexually revelent stimuli and sends the turn on signal
Speaker 1: like pressing the accelerator UH, and the s I s
Speaker 1: IT takes in potential threats in the environment and sends
Speaker 1: the turn off signal like pushing the brakes. And these
Speaker 1: could include things like fear of social judgments or unwanted pregnancy.
Speaker 1: And according to this book, a sensitive break is the
Speaker 1: biggest predictor of sexual issues are problems, and you can
Speaker 1: have high levels of both, low levels of both, average
Speaker 1: levels of both are opposing values. All of this, trying
Speaker 1: to understand sex is a big business refirment, and particularly
Speaker 1: right now sexuality of women. Sex dysfunction fills of one
Speaker 1: of the highest observed placebo effects in women, and that
Speaker 1: is really really high. But that actually leads to the
Speaker 1: next point. Another huge part of this book is sexual context,
Speaker 1: which is pretty much the circumstance and environment of sex
Speaker 1: and according to the author, is one of the most
Speaker 1: important things when it comes to having sex. A part
Speaker 1: of this is finding your emotional wandering, yes, the wondering
Speaker 1: to rule them all like Lord of the Rings, yes.
Speaker 1: The wondering breaks up pleasure into three things, enjoying, expecting,
Speaker 1: an eagerness, she writes. Expecting anticipating eagerness, wanting and enjoying
Speaker 1: liking our separate functions in your brain. You can want
Speaker 1: without liking, craving, anticipate without wanting, dread, or any other combination.
Speaker 1: For most people, the best context for sex is low
Speaker 1: stress plus highly affectionate plus explicitly erotic. When it comes
Speaker 1: to context, stress has a huge impact, which also varies
Speaker 1: from person to person, which be a surprise. There are
Speaker 1: flat liners stress hits the brakes versus redliners stress hits accelerator,
Speaker 1: she writes. In fact, more than half of women report
Speaker 1: that stress, depression, and anxiety decrease their interests in sects.
Speaker 1: They also reduce sexual arousal and can interfere with orgasm.
Speaker 1: Chronic stress also disrupts or suppresses the mistrual cycle, decreases
Speaker 1: fertility and lactation, and increases miscarriage, as well as reducing
Speaker 1: general response and increasing both distractability and pain. With sex
Speaker 1: in a good sexual context, pretty much anything can turn
Speaker 1: you on versus a bad one. Nothing well. The example,
Speaker 1: she gives a lot of tickling how if you're in
Speaker 1: a good place, tickling can be wonderful, but if you're
Speaker 1: in a bad place, very annoying, you don't want it,
Speaker 1: she says, annoying a lot. Yes, yes, trust is perhaps
Speaker 1: obviously a part of a good context for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. Not all people trust of others and of yourself.
Speaker 1: That comes up to trusting your elf. One example of
Speaker 1: this our fantasies. When it comes to fantasies, it's safe,
Speaker 1: where the same situations in real life would be threatening.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I wanted to include that is
Speaker 1: because I do like when I list out all the
Speaker 1: crushes I've had in my life, almost all of them
Speaker 1: are fictional, and so this made a lot of sense
Speaker 1: to me. I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't have to
Speaker 1: really worry about what's going to happen with this fictional character,
Speaker 1: right I think you know, I talked about this before
Speaker 1: because I feel that same way where I'm like, if
Speaker 1: I am thinking of someone, I don't think of people
Speaker 1: I actually know, actually know them, put it too real
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, so I've never actually had that
Speaker 1: as a thing for me. I think when I would
Speaker 1: dream it, I would feel so awkward like, if I
Speaker 1: had such stream about a person that I could not
Speaker 1: look at them in the eye, I'm a Nope, we
Speaker 1: can't talk about two weeks now. That's the periods COVID nineteen.
Speaker 1: It's extremes at the same that's where I know my
Speaker 1: quarantine all right, Yeah, it's extreme quarantine. That needs to
Speaker 1: be a song. Um. Anyway, another part of context is trauma,
Speaker 1: both for survivors and co survivors, um. And I thought
Speaker 1: it was interesting that she included both perspectives because, um,
Speaker 1: I know we've talked about co survivors before, but just
Speaker 1: how it does impact them as well. And um. She
Speaker 1: goes over three broad approaches to coping with residual trauma
Speaker 1: top down approach processing the trauma, bottom up approach processing
Speaker 1: your body, and the sideways approach mindfulness, And of course
Speaker 1: she delves into so much more detail on all of
Speaker 1: those things. If you again, if you are interested in
Speaker 1: any of those, highly recommend you read the book. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, those are the the ways of coping with
Speaker 1: residual trauma. She goes into. Um, it also goes into
Speaker 1: attachment styles and love and the impacts those things have
Speaker 1: on sexual context, which I also found really interesting and
Speaker 1: again she does have a workbook, So if you really
Speaker 1: want to dig into where you are or working things out,
Speaker 1: I think a workbook would be wonderful. And it also
Speaker 1: goes into sex positivity in a sex negative culture. She
Speaker 1: raised down the sex negativity into three main messages for
Speaker 1: women around sex. One the moral message you are evil,
Speaker 1: the medical message you are diseased, and the media message
Speaker 1: you are inadequate. Linda A. Bacon literally wrote the book
Speaker 1: on Hayes Health at Every Size, The Surprising Truth About
Speaker 1: Your Weight, based on her decades of research on nutrition, exercise,
Speaker 1: and health. And there are four major tenants according to
Speaker 1: the Hayes Manifesto or again h A. E. S One,
Speaker 1: accept your size, to trust yourself. Three adopt healthy lifestyle habits,
Speaker 1: including joyful physical activity and nutritious foods. And for embrace
Speaker 1: sized diversity. I think she does a really great job
Speaker 1: in breaking down how we see ourselves as a young
Speaker 1: girl before we are told what is right and what
Speaker 1: is wrong. She does a wonderful job and how that
Speaker 1: is fed into us and then we become doubting ourselves.
Speaker 1: And I will tell you one of the reasons I
Speaker 1: say a lot of the times I have so many
Speaker 1: attachment issues and had so much trauma. I didn't have
Speaker 1: sex until later on in life. Well, of course I
Speaker 1: was also religious, but a big part that was also
Speaker 1: my weight and being thicker and beginning being heavier than
Speaker 1: what I knew was normal in a white culture, being
Speaker 1: skinny is number one. Um so for me being a
Speaker 1: thick Asian girl, which means I've already been disqualified of
Speaker 1: two of the perfect standards. Would did not want anyone
Speaker 1: to see me. I covered myself up. But think I
Speaker 1: told you the story that I used to always wear
Speaker 1: long skirts and T shirts because not just because you know,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I'm trying to stay pure, there's more of
Speaker 1: I'm assumed of what my body looks like. This is
Speaker 1: the best way to hide myself. Yeah yeah, And um,
Speaker 1: she does spend a lot of time on weights and
Speaker 1: on how so many of us, for so many women,
Speaker 1: that is one thing that takes us out of sex
Speaker 1: is that you're so focused on like what you feel
Speaker 1: is wrong with your body. Um, and of course that's
Speaker 1: gonna remove you from enjoying a moment. Uh. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I have some any friends and myself included
Speaker 1: that we would you know, you wouldn't take off your
Speaker 1: shirt when you went swimming, or you just didn't want
Speaker 1: anybody looking at your body. And as she reiterates time
Speaker 1: and time again, you weren't born with those thoughts. Uh.
Speaker 1: The culture that you live in and the people in
Speaker 1: your life unknowingly or knowingly gave you those thoughts. And
Speaker 1: it's planted in your garden. It's planet, and it's a weed,
Speaker 1: and you can decide to get rid of it or
Speaker 1: to decide what to keep. But you do get to decide, uh, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and discussed you also talked about disgust when the huge
Speaker 1: impact that has on the sex life of women, which
Speaker 1: discussed is sexual disgust is largely associated with sexual pain disorders.
Speaker 1: And I was just thinking about for me, as someone
Speaker 1: who works on the show and a very like sex positive,
Speaker 1: I still have just like lingering kind of knee jerk,
Speaker 1: like when we did the sex Words episode and I
Speaker 1: got so embarrassed or like just taught thinking about like
Speaker 1: some of the things she would write about like sticky
Speaker 1: uh and like smells and like it's not disgusting, but
Speaker 1: I have that like knee jerk thing that I've just
Speaker 1: been fed and it has grown within me continue to
Speaker 1: say the word yum throughout I'm not gonna lie. It
Speaker 1: kind of like made me have a moment especially and
Speaker 1: I do I'm not gonna lie. I don't love the
Speaker 1: term yuck. You're yum. I don't know why. It's always
Speaker 1: been like, uh, I don't don't say that to me.
Speaker 1: And the first time I heard it, which by the way,
Speaker 1: was recently, I was like, what is what did you
Speaker 1: say to me? But yeah, it definitely has like the
Speaker 1: book has that moment of like, oh, I really need
Speaker 1: to rethink about this as a normalized thing, because I
Speaker 1: still have even as open and as forward as I
Speaker 1: can be, it's still I still had moments of not
Speaker 1: necessarily just triggered, but being very uncomfortable even though it
Speaker 1: is absolutely normal. Yep, yep, yep. And the book does
Speaker 1: go into some ways of learning these top messages of
Speaker 1: body shame and him around sex and sexuality. And just
Speaker 1: to be clear about the medical message of those those
Speaker 1: three basic messages, she says, women gets um it not
Speaker 1: only encompasses like things like unwanted pregnancy and S T
Speaker 1: I S, but like a lower sex drive when compared
Speaker 1: to a partner means you are broken or something is
Speaker 1: wrong with you, that that there's something wrong with you
Speaker 1: if your experience doesn't match this male as default experience. Right.
Speaker 1: Also like her comparison, um, when she was talking about
Speaker 1: the woman uh who had a disability who I think
Speaker 1: she was in a wheelchair, was told by the doctor
Speaker 1: that they couldn't help her pain and therefore she couldn't
Speaker 1: have sex essentially, and then her being so frustrated. It's
Speaker 1: true that doctors don't care about women enjoying sex, so
Speaker 1: therefore they don't believe when a woman says they can't
Speaker 1: have sex. That's where every man was talking about the
Speaker 1: penis or having you know, erectile dysfunction that are immediately
Speaker 1: able to prescribe something and say, yeah, absolutely we can
Speaker 1: fix that. Yeah, it's so important that we fix so important. Yes. Um.
Speaker 1: Another thing a lot of women report as part of
Speaker 1: all of this messaging is spectator And I've heard from
Speaker 1: a lot of my friends about this, and this is
Speaker 1: basically being outside of your body while having sex. And
Speaker 1: it's usually things like yeah, worried about how you look, um,
Speaker 1: about whether or not you're going to orgasm, like having
Speaker 1: this pressure to to do that. Um, all kinds of things,
Speaker 1: and I remember forever ago we did an episode on
Speaker 1: on that, and I'm sure the numbers have changed now,
Speaker 1: but at the time it was like, what are most
Speaker 1: we've been thinking about when they have sex? And it
Speaker 1: was like body image, orgasm. And the third one was
Speaker 1: like groceries or like based daily plans. Yeah, like all
Speaker 1: the stuff they have to do essentially in stress is
Speaker 1: a huge, huge, huge part of what Nagaski believes is
Speaker 1: impacting sex lives. And we are going to talk about that, um,
Speaker 1: but first we're gonna take one more quick break for
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsoring. Right, So,
Speaker 1: something else the book tackles is the power of self
Speaker 1: criticism as a moral force and the difficulty of letting
Speaker 1: it go. I think we've all been there, which also
Speaker 1: is a huge stressor that doesn't just impact sex, but
Speaker 1: all aspects of our lives, particularly women's lives. And we've
Speaker 1: seen it as we are in the middle again of
Speaker 1: a pandemic and responsibilities following a lot on the women
Speaker 1: in the household or the main uh female partner. And
Speaker 1: one of the main ways to combat self criticism, according
Speaker 1: to Nagaski, is self compassion, which is further broken down
Speaker 1: into self kindness, which is really hard to be kind
Speaker 1: to yourself sometimes. But she did a really great um
Speaker 1: exercise in which she tells you to write a letter
Speaker 1: and address it to your daughter or your sister, and
Speaker 1: then apply that same language to yourself. I think that's wonderful.
Speaker 1: Common humanity, the opposite of isolation, which is funny right
Speaker 1: now talking about what's happening but you know, and then
Speaker 1: mindfulness being non judgmental about what's happening at the current moment,
Speaker 1: even though she also talks about the whole going back
Speaker 1: and forth about being annoyed for being annoyed and how
Speaker 1: to let go of that. Uh huh, Yeah. I hadn't
Speaker 1: really thought about that until I read that section. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, yeah, yeah, that is something I experienced
Speaker 1: quite a bit of. And mindfulness is something I've been
Speaker 1: working on a lot during quarantine, and it has changed
Speaker 1: I can notice, like incremental improvements in the way I
Speaker 1: treat myself. Yeah, she talks about it as also not
Speaker 1: just for sucks, but just like your anxiety and depression.
Speaker 1: How it is really helpful and it has been, as
Speaker 1: we know, kind of a lot of these apps and
Speaker 1: meditation apps are specifically not necessarily about meditation, but mindfulness
Speaker 1: and had rewarded what that is and how that is
Speaker 1: helpful and beneficial. Yes. Uh. Another main focus of the
Speaker 1: book is something called non concordance, and she writes how
Speaker 1: most people don't know what this is or don't understand
Speaker 1: it properly, and I definitely count myself in that group. Um,
Speaker 1: So this is something everyone experiences when genital response doesn't
Speaker 1: match the experience of arousal, which arousal is something that
Speaker 1: happens in the brain, or having a biological response to
Speaker 1: sexually relevant data, so expecting but not experiencing the eagerness
Speaker 1: or enjoying part of pleasure necessarily um. One study found
Speaker 1: that the overlap between these two is as low as
Speaker 1: ten percent for women about for men. Yeah, that number
Speaker 1: was shocking. That temper sent kind of just sat there
Speaker 1: at that number. I was like, Wow, they have that's
Speaker 1: a giant, huge difference, and that's a low ass number. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And this is another thing with the mail as default um,
Speaker 1: because she gives the example of fifty Shades of Great
Speaker 1: which I never read, but I've read a lot of
Speaker 1: fan fiction that uses the same idea. Of like, well,
Speaker 1: your body can't lie, Like you can tell me one thing,
Speaker 1: but your body is telling me something else. And this
Speaker 1: leads to a dangerous habit of assuming that women's bodies
Speaker 1: are the quote honest indicators and that yeah, they're lying
Speaker 1: or in denial when they tell you otherwise. And we've
Speaker 1: seen the power of this messaging when it comes to
Speaker 1: sexual assault cases, even representatives in our government. Right. She
Speaker 1: puts out the one specific example of is it the
Speaker 1: representative who said that if a woman is raped, their
Speaker 1: body automatically has defenses. You're yeah, you're like, what so
Speaker 1: if you get pregnant the understanding and this old understanding,
Speaker 1: if there's some part of your body that was into it,
Speaker 1: which is so so damaging and awful and a huge lie. Wrong, wrong, wrong,
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that's she. I love that she
Speaker 1: does talk about that. She even talks about it as
Speaker 1: for men um and she had that one example of
Speaker 1: a guy who didn't stop assault happening because he had
Speaker 1: an erection, but and so that he felt like that
Speaker 1: meant he was also a pervert too. In actuality, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of things that have happened between men and
Speaker 1: women when things, again are your body physically reacts to
Speaker 1: something that it has nothing to do with what your
Speaker 1: desire actually is. And so I was like, Wow, she
Speaker 1: flipped that. She flipped that on his head, and that's
Speaker 1: a really great example. Also frustrated me know that there
Speaker 1: are a lot of men out there who has seen
Speaker 1: this happen and don't say anything. Yea, And that pissed
Speaker 1: me off. But that's a whole that's a whole other conversation.
Speaker 1: But that was one of those that I sat there
Speaker 1: from me and I was like, huh, this would be
Speaker 1: an interesting episode. Let's talk about it. Why is it?
Speaker 1: But anyway, I digress. So Nagaski also digs into the
Speaker 1: size of spontaneous versus responsive desire, which kicks in after
Speaker 1: sexy things have already happened, as opposed to just seeing
Speaker 1: someone and wanting sex versus context dependent desire, which is
Speaker 1: design that really depends on the context. Yeah. And and
Speaker 1: it was interesting because throughout the book she has these
Speaker 1: four couples that she's using as examples of working through
Speaker 1: these things to help give you a concrete example, and
Speaker 1: just it seems like every couple did not understand the
Speaker 1: differences in this um. Another point she hammers home is
Speaker 1: that sex is not a drive but an incentive motivation system,
Speaker 1: and that calling sex a drive fosters an environment where
Speaker 1: women think they're sick. The percentage of that experienced spontaneous
Speaker 1: desire is far lower than men. And it also fosters
Speaker 1: a sense of male sexual entitlement that it's this thing
Speaker 1: that they have to have. And I haven't honestly thought
Speaker 1: much about that verbiage and the depth of the mean
Speaker 1: that it has attached to it, because yeah, I've I've
Speaker 1: heard that term, and I've used that term, and then
Speaker 1: we're thinking, oh, yeah, sex is not needed for living,
Speaker 1: as in, it's not going to kill you if you
Speaker 1: don't have sex, and about placing it as a need.
Speaker 1: It does give men in society an excuse of having
Speaker 1: sex as a means of survival, so it is not
Speaker 1: necessarily something they earn but must have and it is given. Um,
Speaker 1: it's such a breakdown in language, which we've talked about
Speaker 1: so many times and again another way of controlling women.
Speaker 1: So we know it on the surface, like we know
Speaker 1: this on the surface, but language like this it does
Speaker 1: have a very dangerous consequence. And I kind of like, wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: she really that she's completely right. Sex drivers should be
Speaker 1: eliminated from our language because it has this verbish that
Speaker 1: men can't control themselves, shouldn't have to control themselves because
Speaker 1: it is instinct. And that's yep. And I know we've
Speaker 1: talked about before, um, growing up and just feeling like
Speaker 1: it was my duty, Like if a guy heaven forbide
Speaker 1: have blueballs when I've done something terrible and I would owe.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it's it's very damaging being in a relationship,
Speaker 1: being in that close proximity, being uh flirty means that
Speaker 1: they are owed this act whether you want to or not.
Speaker 1: And that's such a wow, kind of just blew my mine.
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, that that language in itself builds
Speaker 1: itself up to have that toxicity and allows them to
Speaker 1: get away with these things. Yeah, um, yep. But pivoting, Uh.
Speaker 1: There is a whole section on orgasms um, which she
Speaker 1: defines as quote the sudden, involuntary release of sexual tension
Speaker 1: uh and further quote, orgasms vary from woman to woman,
Speaker 1: from context to context. They happen while you're making love,
Speaker 1: and sometimes they don't. They happen while you're masturbating, and
Speaker 1: sometimes they don't. They can happen from clatorial stimulation, vaginal stimulation,
Speaker 1: thigh stimulation, anal stimulation, stimulation, earlobe stimulation, or a mental
Speaker 1: stimulation with no physical contact at all or not during
Speaker 1: any of these. They can happen while you're asleep, while
Speaker 1: you're exercising, or while you're in a variety of other
Speaker 1: completely on sexual situations. They can be delightful, humdrum, spiritual, annoying, ecstatic, fun,
Speaker 1: or frustrating. Sometimes they're awesome, sometimes they're not. Sometimes you
Speaker 1: want them, sometimes you don't. And by the way, she
Speaker 1: has a whole uh section on different ways to have
Speaker 1: different types of orgasm. Yes, yes she does, and I
Speaker 1: really appreciated she put this in there because I do
Speaker 1: think as a culture, we've built the orgasm into this
Speaker 1: like end all, be all. If you don't have it,
Speaker 1: something's wrong. But you know, it does vary depending on
Speaker 1: the mood and context, and sometimes you know, they're fine,
Speaker 1: sometimes they are amazing. You know. I've talked about some
Speaker 1: more gasses on the show, and this actually made me
Speaker 1: feel better about it because I was like, oh, look,
Speaker 1: it turns out that could happen, and I'm not some
Speaker 1: total outlier uh, you are better disciplined than the rest
Speaker 1: of us. Apparently, I found a context that works for me.
Speaker 1: But back to orgasms, in this context can also be
Speaker 1: non concordant. Because we societally treated men's pleasure as a
Speaker 1: default pleasure, we expect women to orgasm reliably from being
Speaker 1: this vaginal intercourse, yeah, which can sometimes happen, but sometimes
Speaker 1: don't and only do and SEV don't. And I think
Speaker 1: that's kind of one of those things that have slowly
Speaker 1: sleeped out to the world that people are starting to
Speaker 1: realize it's okay and sometimes it just never happens. Um
Speaker 1: of women who masturbated it with little to no vaginal stimulation,
Speaker 1: focusing primarily on the clearers. I knew it, you knew it.
Speaker 1: I knew it, you knew it. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's not just men, Like I grew
Speaker 1: up thinking that too, Like that's yeah, I do. I
Speaker 1: do also love. She deals into the same time orgasm.
Speaker 1: She talks about how rare that isn't that's great if
Speaker 1: you can and if you like it, wonderful, but it's
Speaker 1: not a you know, necessary thing, and it's not common,
Speaker 1: so it's okay, yeah, yeah, And I also like how
Speaker 1: she talks about, like the pressure especially on women to
Speaker 1: have an orgasm almost means you're not going to have one,
Speaker 1: Like it's one of those things that's taking you out
Speaker 1: of the moment of enjoying um so. And also just
Speaker 1: to reiterate she said in that quote reliably, like it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you you never will during penis vaginanat intercourse,
Speaker 1: just like that reliable part of it. And then that's
Speaker 1: the only way, yes, it is not no no no.
Speaker 1: She also goes into things like meta emotions or is yeah,
Speaker 1: how you feel about your emotions being annoyed about being annoyed? Uh,
Speaker 1: and Matt versus terrain, how we're told sex should be
Speaker 1: and how it actually is, and how all of that
Speaker 1: plays into our ideas of sex and if sex is
Speaker 1: something that you're you're into, how how that sex can
Speaker 1: play out and how you can change those things and
Speaker 1: just be to be mindful of those things too, is
Speaker 1: a big part of realizing, Uh, you're the messaging you've
Speaker 1: received and how that impacts all of your life. But
Speaker 1: also sex, what is being planted in your garden? What
Speaker 1: is being planted in your garden? What do you want
Speaker 1: to get rid of what do you want to keep? Um,
Speaker 1: and I mean communication too is I mean we could
Speaker 1: say that in every episode, but communication is key and
Speaker 1: not feeling embarrassed about having these honest conversations and not
Speaker 1: being embarrassed that you don't necessarily know like work and
Speaker 1: doing that work and figuring out what you do like
Speaker 1: and being able to communicate that. Yeah, it's very powerful stuff. Yes,
Speaker 1: it had me feeling like I gotta share this with
Speaker 1: everybody I know, And well that's her ends. She's like,
Speaker 1: make sure it's just share. If you share just one person,
Speaker 1: I've done my job. Just spread it amongst the people's. Yeah, well, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess we've done part of our job
Speaker 1: and we are our listeners for that because I yeah,
Speaker 1: great suggestion, and yeah, yeah, Honestly, this book it's just
Speaker 1: a wealth of information. There's so so many things we
Speaker 1: can unpack. It's so full of things I wish I
Speaker 1: had known when I was much much younger, and we
Speaker 1: really only touched on the surface. So definitely recommend it
Speaker 1: if any of what we've said resonate with you or
Speaker 1: you want to learn more about any of the things
Speaker 1: we touched on, because we really didn't go in depth
Speaker 1: with with much of this. So it's a lot, it
Speaker 1: is and it's worth it. It's worth it um. But
Speaker 1: in the meantime, we would love any other book recommendations
Speaker 1: or recommendations at large, or just to hear from you.
Speaker 1: How are you doing? Uh? You can email us at
Speaker 1: Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as
Speaker 1: always to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks
Speaker 1: to you for listening. Dephone Never Told You subsection of
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Speaker 1: favorite shows.