Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff.
Speaker 1: I never told your production of I Heart Radio. Here's
Speaker 1: my question for you today, Samantha. Yes, what is your
Speaker 1: favorite karaoke song? Oh, that's a cruel question because I
Speaker 1: have you got to give a handful all about that.
Speaker 1: Uh let me think. So. I do love a good
Speaker 1: Fiona Apple song. Uh huh, and Criminal is usually the
Speaker 1: one I go to. I think everybody loves that. Um.
Speaker 1: I will also do every now and then, if I'm
Speaker 1: feeling really courageous a salt and pepper song, but I'm
Speaker 1: not good at it. I've seen this happen. You pulled
Speaker 1: me up once and I was very you didn't know
Speaker 1: what was happening, and that's when I realized we have
Speaker 1: very different tastes in music. No, I knew this song,
Speaker 1: but I had been like talking to someone and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was like, pulled up the song.
Speaker 1: That's what it was. So wait, so what is yours? Oh?
Speaker 1: I'm surprised you didn't say no scraps tlc Oh. I
Speaker 1: do love a good note. See that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: There's so many Yeah, you have to do say my
Speaker 1: name a lot. I do a lot of Dusty's Child.
Speaker 1: It's true m TLC Destiny's Child all day. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I associate every time I hear those songs,
Speaker 1: I think of you. So yes, yes, handover Heart is warranted. Um,
Speaker 1: mine are much nerdier than yours because I love the
Speaker 1: classic Mulan Yeah, man a'st I feel like that's all
Speaker 1: of the house stuff work producer Andrew really loves. Yeah. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I feel like I picked the ones that are goofy
Speaker 1: that I know like everyone's going to get into. Like
Speaker 1: now I've started choosing the Pokemon song because people always
Speaker 1: sing it like I don't know that song, but I
Speaker 1: like choosing it because everyone gets into it. Yeah I
Speaker 1: didn't either, but now I love it and I do
Speaker 1: it every time. I believe that's also a producer Andrews
Speaker 1: preference as well, the Pokemon song. Yeah yeah, him and
Speaker 1: are other past super producer on the show, Dylan, I
Speaker 1: used to really love well, I love my shot from Hamilton's,
Speaker 1: but they were what is the one? People always are like,
Speaker 1: you have to sing this one. It's just my thing
Speaker 1: now and I don't know how it really happens. The um, well,
Speaker 1: what is the song you used, the Radiohead song that
Speaker 1: you creep where I started crying on stage. That was
Speaker 1: a different time of my life. I'm not in that period.
Speaker 1: I have moved on. Oh it's um, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: get back by Ludicrous, Get back by Ludicrous? Really yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever seen you do this.
Speaker 1: I do it like every time because people I did
Speaker 1: it once. Now everyone requested is like, you have to
Speaker 1: get up there and do it. Um. I do know
Speaker 1: all the words. I could do it without the lyrics.
Speaker 1: Why right now? I want to do Evil by Tiffany
Speaker 1: Hattish from the Lego To movie. But no Karakee Place
Speaker 1: has it. It's a shame. That's my next what I'm
Speaker 1: going to tackle. You can do that too. Yes. Anyway,
Speaker 1: moving on from karaokey uh, today we are talking about
Speaker 1: a topic that used the Mantha You have been dying
Speaker 1: on my list for a couple of years now. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I'm very, very very excited that we finally got
Speaker 1: to approach and get into it and not I mean
Speaker 1: we got into it as much as we could because
Speaker 1: there's so much to impact, but it was so good. Yes.
Speaker 1: So what we're talking about is massage noir, and particularly
Speaker 1: when we look at women in the hip hop industry
Speaker 1: and what does that look like? And to have this
Speaker 1: conversation today eves wonderful eaves from female. First, she put
Speaker 1: us in touch with a friend of hers, Kiana Fitzgerald,
Speaker 1: who is an amazing writer and uh she joined us
Speaker 1: have this conversation and was fantastic, such a delight. So
Speaker 1: without further ado, let's get into it. We like to
Speaker 1: start with a very basic, simple question. Can you introduce
Speaker 1: yourself to our audience and tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about yourself? Absolutely. My name is Keiana Fitzgerald. I am
Speaker 1: a freelance writer, a cultural critic, and a DJ, and
Speaker 1: I've written for a bunch of different places at this point.
Speaker 1: But I got my start at MPR, which is a
Speaker 1: very very great stroke of look and I was able
Speaker 1: to finesse that into UM a full time position there
Speaker 1: after an internship, and then I kind of bounced to
Speaker 1: round to a couple of different companies before many get complex,
Speaker 1: and there I was able to really dig into hip
Speaker 1: hop and UM the way that we kind of interact
Speaker 1: with our artists, with our influencers, with our producers, UM,
Speaker 1: just all kinds of the intricacies of what makes hip
Speaker 1: hop hip hop. So Ever since UM I left Complex
Speaker 1: Um early last year or twenty nineteen, I've been freelancing,
Speaker 1: as I said, and I've been able to work with
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone, with Billboard, Okay, Player, Um, The Cut, Nylon Magazine,
Speaker 1: a bunch of different cool places. I did a cover
Speaker 1: story on Megan Thee Stallion for Paper magazine last summer.
Speaker 1: It was one of the most exciting things I've ever done.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I've just kind of been trying to uh
Speaker 1: parlay my experiences into a bigger career that I couldn't
Speaker 1: have dreamed that I could have so, and we're so
Speaker 1: excited to have you. I'm not gonna lie um as
Speaker 1: we've been getting prepared for our interview. Of course, I'm
Speaker 1: stalking you on the clips. That's what we do. That's
Speaker 1: that's the professionalist in me. But yeah, and reading all
Speaker 1: your articles you're doing, you do such a fantastic job
Speaker 1: and writing about your interviews and just your interactions is fantastic.
Speaker 1: And I love how you make it as I don't
Speaker 1: know what it is, but the way you have the
Speaker 1: conversations or the back and forth, it's almost like you're
Speaker 1: wrapping in that conversation, so I was I was like,
Speaker 1: it's like, I'm kind of bopped into this even though
Speaker 1: just read that's fantastic, so good and and it's such
Speaker 1: a beautiful I love, especially with what we're talking about today,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about uh, massage, noir and hip hop
Speaker 1: and what is happening in that industry. And it's been
Speaker 1: something on my mind for a while. I know Annie
Speaker 1: and I talked about it when I first joined stuff.
Speaker 1: I've never told you a couple of years ago that
Speaker 1: this is something that I want to tackle. You want
Speaker 1: to talk about it because it's so intriguing to see
Speaker 1: an industry that is so influential but at the same
Speaker 1: time it holds women back in such a way. But
Speaker 1: at the same time this challenge as those who can
Speaker 1: make it who can't. Of course, that goes into the
Speaker 1: bigger conversation of what's happening within the industry and itself
Speaker 1: when in a time of black Lives matter, UM say
Speaker 1: her name and me too hashtag me too. So the
Speaker 1: big conversation and again, thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: us UH, because I have ten thousand things I want
Speaker 1: to talk about with you, Like I kind of already
Speaker 1: know you from the articles that you write, and I know,
Speaker 1: by the way, I also went through your Patreon fantastic.
Speaker 1: Thank you. You're so much open and vulnerable and of
Speaker 1: course we're gonna get that information out. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: one of the big articles I know you talked about
Speaker 1: was from and tell us why can there only be
Speaker 1: one dominant woman in rap? And I've been asking this
Speaker 1: question for not only just in rap, but in all
Speaker 1: of professionalism, all of hobbies, anything. Why is there such
Speaker 1: limited space for women? And then when we talk about
Speaker 1: black women, even less in women of color, even less space. Um?
Speaker 1: And you talk about the theory of social constructionist theory,
Speaker 1: which was fantastic. Can you talk a little bit more
Speaker 1: about that and how it relates and effects hip hop
Speaker 1: and how it limits women? I know there's three questions,
Speaker 1: but oh no, sure, well I will say, I haven't
Speaker 1: read that article since, so I'm like, what did I read? Um?
Speaker 1: So can you refresh my memory on that theory? I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: No, no no, no, you're great, you get you pretty much
Speaker 1: just talk about um. You actually quote and say once
Speaker 1: the leading cast of female rappers dwindle the space for
Speaker 1: women in wrap restricted by default if there are fewer
Speaker 1: women wrapping at prominent levels, then there's less room needed
Speaker 1: for them, And isn't like if it's filled, then it's done.
Speaker 1: Is over? And then you talk a lot about the
Speaker 1: competition because you're talking specifically about Nicki Minaj and Cardi
Speaker 1: B and then you even and from my era, Foxy
Speaker 1: Brown and uh Kim a little Kim, and you talk
Speaker 1: about that whole like feud and it didn't come around
Speaker 1: until Missy Elliott and they did a Ladies Night, yes,
Speaker 1: and that kind of like, oh wow, look at this,
Speaker 1: women together can wrap together and support each other. What
Speaker 1: is this? But you kind of talk about what is
Speaker 1: it that men are so afraid of that they have
Speaker 1: to constrict the space for women so they don't have
Speaker 1: people to compete with. Absolutely, So Yeah, in writing that article,
Speaker 1: I was really just surrounded, um, you know, in the
Speaker 1: complex office by a bunch of men, you know, and
Speaker 1: we were always talking about you know, two and Savage
Speaker 1: little Yahti, like all these men, and I was just
Speaker 1: kind of like, when we have these conversations, we talked
Speaker 1: about either one woman, no women, or maybe two women
Speaker 1: at a time. And I just wanted to get to
Speaker 1: the bottom of why the conversations were so you know, restricted,
Speaker 1: and I just delved into as much as I could
Speaker 1: find about the way that we interact with each other
Speaker 1: as a society and the way that we interact with
Speaker 1: each other within our own you know, spaces of music,
Speaker 1: of culture, of you know, of knitting or what her
Speaker 1: you know, like all these different things that that we
Speaker 1: interact with on a regular basis. I wanted to really
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of why are women so often
Speaker 1: told that we don't fit in or told that we
Speaker 1: can't be a part of something, even though we've been
Speaker 1: there since the beginning, even though we've been supporting those
Speaker 1: cultures since the beginning. So I really wanted to just
Speaker 1: um shed light on the fact that there doesn't have
Speaker 1: to just be one dominant woman as we've seen, you know,
Speaker 1: even in the past six months, like Flomilius come out,
Speaker 1: like skin Kishas come out, But there are so many beautiful, amazing,
Speaker 1: talented wrapper mulatto um that are coming out, and it's
Speaker 1: like we don't have like the conversation that we were
Speaker 1: having in eighteen We've evolved from that and I'm grateful
Speaker 1: for it, but there are still like obstacles that we
Speaker 1: need to face and obstacles that we need to overcome.
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, in terms of that that period in time,
Speaker 1: it was literally Nikki or Cardi, like there was no
Speaker 1: way around it. And like you said, it kind of
Speaker 1: harkened back to the Kim versus Fox era where it
Speaker 1: was like, well, you can only pick one who's your favorite?
Speaker 1: Who's your favorite? And it's like, well I love them
Speaker 1: both and I can't pick, you know, and that's you know,
Speaker 1: I I'm not gonna lie. I was team Cardi and
Speaker 1: twet eighteen. But that was that was more so because
Speaker 1: of like you know, she was young and fresh and exciting,
Speaker 1: and she seemed like a person that I would have
Speaker 1: wanted to hang out with. And Vicky is very much
Speaker 1: a diva, which is not a bad thing, but um,
Speaker 1: you know, I just like I like I thought she
Speaker 1: was more personable. So um at that point in the
Speaker 1: article itself, I did not, like, you know, lay out
Speaker 1: my my allegiance, but um, I was very much just
Speaker 1: trying to investigate why we were even having the conversation
Speaker 1: of one woman being dominant at a time, right, and
Speaker 1: you did. You made a great point about the fact
Speaker 1: that it was the patriarchy and misogyny and itself that
Speaker 1: penned them against each other. It wasn't even them. At
Speaker 1: one point, you even even talked about her um Cardi's
Speaker 1: tweet saying, y'all try something and it's not anything. You're
Speaker 1: just hanging here. She's like, we could be making out.
Speaker 1: Neil is still gonna say exactly hating and see each other.
Speaker 1: And that's exactly kind of what you were talking about,
Speaker 1: was like, this is not I mean, I take it.
Speaker 1: Since then things exploded, but at that point in time
Speaker 1: it didn't. And and at that point, Cardi was talking
Speaker 1: about how much she loved Nikki and looked up to
Speaker 1: Nicki Nash and and how big of an influence she
Speaker 1: was before they started going back and forth and having
Speaker 1: a feud, and she had gotten the first number one
Speaker 1: hit as a rapper, a female rapper, and everybody congratulator are,
Speaker 1: including Nicki Minaj. Yeah, and it's kind of like who's
Speaker 1: making this happen and who does this benefit? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you talk about that, Yeah, it's it's definitely like you know,
Speaker 1: like I was saying, just the microcosm of being in
Speaker 1: the complex office and hearing the conversations there that kind
Speaker 1: of like you can extrapolate that out and talk about
Speaker 1: like the media in general, especially like black culture media,
Speaker 1: you know, the breakfast club, that kind of thing, Like
Speaker 1: they really perpetuate a lot of that conversation. So um,
Speaker 1: you know, it just gets to a point where you
Speaker 1: either try to ignore those conversations that are happening or
Speaker 1: you get embattled in these conversations yourself, and you're like
Speaker 1: in the comments in the shade room, like going back
Speaker 1: and forth with people like arguing or whatever, like trying
Speaker 1: to trying to just like make a point about the
Speaker 1: fact that there doesn't need to be like this small,
Speaker 1: you know, finite amount of space for women, and um,
Speaker 1: a lot of times, you know, when I wrote that article,
Speaker 1: I got a lot of great feedback, but it's still
Speaker 1: kind of felt like I was screaming into avoid you know,
Speaker 1: it felt like I didn't quite have the like I wanted.
Speaker 1: I wanted like a huge conversation to happen. I wanted
Speaker 1: it to be like let's talk about this and like
Speaker 1: it happened in my immediate circle, but like it didn't
Speaker 1: really happen as far as like now we're having this
Speaker 1: conversation on a podcast that is not about music. Or
Speaker 1: hip hop specifically, like, this is what I wanted to happen.
Speaker 1: And so I'm very very happy and grateful that we're
Speaker 1: having this conversation now. And and you're right. Even when
Speaker 1: your article came out, people referenced to your article because
Speaker 1: there was not a lot of conversation to it. Nobody
Speaker 1: were actually writing it out or actually digging into it,
Speaker 1: and you did. You came out with some studies. You're
Speaker 1: like this study and this study. It was fantastic, even
Speaker 1: though people have been talking about it, even though people
Speaker 1: say that there's a problem and it's the obvious answer
Speaker 1: is misogyny, patriarchy and saturn noir is there, of course,
Speaker 1: but how do we break this down? And you did.
Speaker 1: You talked a lot about it and even went through
Speaker 1: like a generational point because you kind of brought it
Speaker 1: up again. And when you talked to making the stallion
Speaker 1: and talking about what it would look like if the
Speaker 1: Ladies Night was refrained and she did it, and who
Speaker 1: would be and then how many people would be it is,
Speaker 1: she was like I'd have twenty people, yeah, exactly, which
Speaker 1: is even better. Um. But yeah, and you kind of
Speaker 1: already tapped into this because you talked about that, there's
Speaker 1: more names, and I know you interviewed The City Girls, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, I was listening to that as I
Speaker 1: was doing More Reasons, all of this, all of this,
Speaker 1: But do you still see that whole limiting space, the
Speaker 1: fact that they say, Okay, here's your three girls enjoyed,
Speaker 1: here's your three female rappers enjoy That's it, that's all
Speaker 1: you can have. Do you see it still see that
Speaker 1: happening today? Well? Um, I definitely want to reference a
Speaker 1: song that just came out, um with the City Girls.
Speaker 1: It's the dow It remix by Chloe and Hallie. So
Speaker 1: the City Girls are on it, Mulatto's on it, in
Speaker 1: doga Cat is on it, and I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is like a mini ladies night, Like
Speaker 1: I was so excited. Um, So yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: fortunately over the past couple of years, and I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if it's because Cardi was like such a phenomenon
Speaker 1: and we were like, we want more of that for
Speaker 1: what But um, that door has kind of been kicked
Speaker 1: open and women are just starting to pour through, especially
Speaker 1: like I said, in the last six months, they're like Chica,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I can't believe I forgot to mention her.
Speaker 1: I did a cover store in her like last week fantastic.
Speaker 1: That's the article I'm specifically talking about where it just
Speaker 1: felt like it was like a bopp in its writing. Yes, absolutely, yes,
Speaker 1: So you know like as I'm talking, I'm like, oh, her, oh,
Speaker 1: her oh her like and that's like That's what I've
Speaker 1: always wanted, is to just be able to like have
Speaker 1: a conversation and be able to mention like more than
Speaker 1: like you know, five women at a time, like hold
Speaker 1: up one hand and lame, this is this is this,
Speaker 1: and that's it. Like at this point, it's like I
Speaker 1: have friends that put me onto like new women, and
Speaker 1: I am just like thrilled that we have more space
Speaker 1: because for such even though like it was just a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, it felt like it lasted for
Speaker 1: so long that it was like Nikki or Cardi, there
Speaker 1: is no in between, like and even like the City
Speaker 1: Girls came up right around that time, and nobody was
Speaker 1: really talking about them, you know, like like Drake, you know,
Speaker 1: had the in My Feeling song and you mentioned them
Speaker 1: and they were featured on it, like you know, in
Speaker 1: their and their own kind of chopped up way, you know,
Speaker 1: it was still like they weren't a part of the
Speaker 1: bigger conversation yet, you know, and it's like now it's
Speaker 1: like they you know, they're they're everywhere, and you know,
Speaker 1: do Jaquet is everywhere. She had her number one as well. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, so it's very exciting. I'm just like super
Speaker 1: thrilled and I can't wait to see how many more
Speaker 1: women come through the door, right yeah, And sort of
Speaker 1: going off of that, when we're talking about this limited
Speaker 1: space for female rappers and how that is changing, Um,
Speaker 1: we do have some numbers of women in the industry. So, um,
Speaker 1: women actually only make up about twenty two percent of artists,
Speaker 1: twelve point three percent of songwriters, and only two percent
Speaker 1: of producers. And this is from studies, so that is
Speaker 1: from when you were talking when it was Cardi B
Speaker 1: Dickie manage. So things have changed. Um. And if we
Speaker 1: look at Grammy nominees we see a similar thing. Um.
Speaker 1: So what is it about this industry do you think
Speaker 1: makes it so hard for women to break into? That's
Speaker 1: that's a great question, to be honest, Like, I think
Speaker 1: it's like so many other industries where men kind of
Speaker 1: shoehorned themsel elves into positions of power and made it
Speaker 1: so that so an aside I want to talk about.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a documentary that just came out called
Speaker 1: UM on the Record, and it talks about UM Russell
Speaker 1: Simmons and using his position of power to basically coerce, harass, allegedly,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to make that clear assault women.
Speaker 1: And you know, a slew of women came forward, have
Speaker 1: come forward and talked about their experiences with him, and
Speaker 1: that's not an isolated situation. Like men often, especially in
Speaker 1: the music industry, UM, men often use their power to
Speaker 1: to lord it over women and say, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: do this for me and then you'll get your record. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, there have been plenty of women who have
Speaker 1: been buried because they either didn't do what they were
Speaker 1: asked to do or they did it and then the
Speaker 1: men just threw them to the side because they got
Speaker 1: what they wanted. So um, you know, there are some
Speaker 1: powerful women who have kind of been able to escape
Speaker 1: those clutches. But yeah, I mean men, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be like men are terrible, but like you know,
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like as as with anybody that
Speaker 1: gets you know, an inkling of power you wanna, you
Speaker 1: want to wield it, you know, you wanna you want
Speaker 1: to throw it around, and you want to see what
Speaker 1: you can get out of somebody, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: so for so long, I feel like women were excluded
Speaker 1: because they either went with the route and then they
Speaker 1: were found out and it was like, oh, well she
Speaker 1: did that for that, so what is she willing to
Speaker 1: do for this? Or they didn't do it at all
Speaker 1: and then they were just like closed out. So UM,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's especially the case with music, um,
Speaker 1: especially with hip hop specifically. And thankfully we do have
Speaker 1: some pioneers like the Queen Latifa's, like the Salt and
Speaker 1: Peppers who were able to like escape by those issues
Speaker 1: because they were like, I don't know, I wish I
Speaker 1: could have a conversation with them and ask them how
Speaker 1: they were able to work around that. But um, yeah,
Speaker 1: for the most part, I just feel like, especially in
Speaker 1: an industry like hip hop, where the lyrics you know,
Speaker 1: from like the nineties to now have been about like,
Speaker 1: you know, sex and what they want from women and
Speaker 1: how they treat women and what they do with women
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. Um, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's explicit it's right there in your face, and so
Speaker 1: I'm confused about why we won't just admit that that's
Speaker 1: what's going on. You know. I feel like people don't
Speaker 1: really talk about that. And I'm glad that this on
Speaker 1: the record documentary came out because up until like I
Speaker 1: want to say, last month, and even I was watching, um,
Speaker 1: you know, the rough Rider's Chronicles that BT put out,
Speaker 1: and Russell Simmons popped up and I was like, what,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's it just it's still He's still there.
Speaker 1: And I feel like people are not gonna, like ever
Speaker 1: sit him to the side and be like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is someone that did a lot for the culture, but
Speaker 1: he also did a lot to harm the culture. And
Speaker 1: who knows how much further we would be if he
Speaker 1: hadn't done what he had done allegedly. So um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like hip hop is just an industry where
Speaker 1: women are treated as accessories, as you know, as objects,
Speaker 1: as not human beings. And I really hope that things
Speaker 1: are changing now. Um, you know, we'll talk more about
Speaker 1: how women are really seen as you know, especially black
Speaker 1: women aren't really seen as fully realized human beings. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, for now, I just want to say that, yeah,
Speaker 1: hip hop is has got some issues, and I really
Speaker 1: hope that we take some time to address it. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into that, even with the Megan day
Speaker 1: Stallion controversy, not even controversy, things that she went through
Speaker 1: the fact that she had gotten shot and because jokes
Speaker 1: and continued like dismissal of her pain, because of the stereotypes,
Speaker 1: because of this idea that black women not only should
Speaker 1: be stronger than everybody else, but should defend everybody else,
Speaker 1: even when they're the victims, and it just has this
Speaker 1: thing and because that's so ingraded to a certain degree
Speaker 1: that there's a level of protection of we know what's
Speaker 1: happening when at last are called and we know what's
Speaker 1: what we see, and so therefore what is the lesser
Speaker 1: evil and what's the better choice? And then still being
Speaker 1: raped over the coals for it, trying to instill being
Speaker 1: the villain in this story is just such a whole thing,
Speaker 1: and I'm very baffled, and I'm I'm just like this
Speaker 1: whole level of where we are in me too, because
Speaker 1: that's kind of one of the things that I didn't
Speaker 1: want to get into as well. And the hashtag Meto era,
Speaker 1: it seemed like, even though it's started by a black woman,
Speaker 1: it seemed like a lot of hip hop kind of
Speaker 1: got away with it, kind of scared by it. Took
Speaker 1: forever for even r Kelly Tactic answer some of the
Speaker 1: things that he's been accused of, and it became a
Speaker 1: documentary and we already know kind of the history of
Speaker 1: him and Aaliyah, And you're kind of like baffled, like
Speaker 1: it's right there, it's right there, exactly exactly, Yeah, how
Speaker 1: do you see has it? And maybe it's just me,
Speaker 1: Maybe he's me beyond the outskirts of enjoying it as
Speaker 1: just entertainment and not understand the culture behind it and
Speaker 1: the depths of it being from the country of Georgia. Um,
Speaker 1: but have you seen a big effect in the hip
Speaker 1: hop industry with the hashtag meto movement? Oh lord, umus,
Speaker 1: I know, I mean it's it's loaded, But like I
Speaker 1: I sigh, because nothing has happened. Um, you know, and
Speaker 1: you know, with the exception of Russell Simmons and even
Speaker 1: that is like still up in the air. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: there there are people who I've listened to, UM who
Speaker 1: I was a big fan of, Um you know, just
Speaker 1: like from from older people, like you know, I think
Speaker 1: I think Nelly was accused of something, um. And then
Speaker 1: there are these younger kids, um that that I listened
Speaker 1: to a lot, like in twent sixteen, and you know,
Speaker 1: I just kind of went down a rabbit hole and
Speaker 1: I saw these stories that these girls were putting out
Speaker 1: and they were just kind of like he did this
Speaker 1: and I and I was just like, no, this is unbelievable,
Speaker 1: Like I love this kid, and um, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's really bizarre because aside from those like you know,
Speaker 1: four on pages that I was on, nobody's talking about it.
Speaker 1: Nobody's getting canceled. And I feel like cancelation is like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's nothing like at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: like unless you're going to prison, like you're not getting canceled,
Speaker 1: and um, you know. So I feel like hip hop
Speaker 1: hasn't been hit by the me too movement yet, and
Speaker 1: I I'm nervous because I feel like it's inevitable, especially
Speaker 1: you know, after the Megan situation and her coming out
Speaker 1: and saying Tory Lanes did this, like it took a
Speaker 1: lot for her to do that, and I I can
Speaker 1: only imagine, like how stressful that was for her. But
Speaker 1: I feel like she did it because you know, we
Speaker 1: were in a situation where men can do pretty much anything,
Speaker 1: like they can, you know, beat their wives, they can
Speaker 1: you know, force their women to have abortions, like they
Speaker 1: can do all these things, and they'll still like get
Speaker 1: a feature with a Kindrick Lamar or something like that.
Speaker 1: You know. Um, So it's like it's just really disheartening
Speaker 1: to be honest, because you know, I'll be like with
Speaker 1: a friend and what are be listening to something? And
Speaker 1: then a song by one of those artists will come
Speaker 1: on and I'll be like, can we not listen to this?
Speaker 1: And they're like why not? And I'm like have you
Speaker 1: have you not heard anything? It's like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like I'm in the silo where I'm like getting all
Speaker 1: this information and I'm making personal decisions about what I
Speaker 1: prefer to listen to or not to listen to now
Speaker 1: and I'm still out and not now because we're in COVID,
Speaker 1: but like you know, when I was like out and
Speaker 1: about um, you know, like at certain places or you know,
Speaker 1: hanging out with friends, and um, you know, even uh
Speaker 1: the late XXX Sentaton like you know he was somebody
Speaker 1: that was wildly popular. Had co Science by Kendrick, had
Speaker 1: co Science by I think Kanye West at one point.
Speaker 1: That kid had a lot of issues. He was very talented,
Speaker 1: he was He's one of the ones that I was
Speaker 1: listening to back in UM. He was very very talented,
Speaker 1: but he was very very challenged, you know, in a
Speaker 1: lot of emotional ways. And he took that out allegedly,
Speaker 1: but you know, not really allegedly on you know, the
Speaker 1: girl that he was dating and his fans, scores of fans.
Speaker 1: You know, I would write about him. I remember I
Speaker 1: wrote an article about him for Complex and they tore
Speaker 1: me to pieces, like they were just like, you don't
Speaker 1: know anything about him. He didn't do this, he blah
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. And then like you know, like
Speaker 1: literal audio recordings of him admitting it would come out
Speaker 1: and they would still be like, but he didn't do it.
Speaker 1: He didn't admit it. So you know, it's just kind
Speaker 1: of like I just I don't know if hip hop
Speaker 1: will ever be affected like as much as Hollywood was,
Speaker 1: you know, like after UM it kind of took off there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's something that I'm definitely interested in seeing
Speaker 1: how things play out over the next couple of years. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's it's a very it's a conundrum
Speaker 1: for sure, right. I mean we can look at one
Speaker 1: of the best examples, Chris Brown. Yeah, and he just
Speaker 1: made a number one hit. I mean it just came
Speaker 1: out that he just made in one of V M
Speaker 1: A or something. Right, It's kind of like, Oh, and
Speaker 1: again this kind of goes back to the whole idea though,
Speaker 1: in the protection bit, because I've heard this many times
Speaker 1: and I can see that too, that he's most likely
Speaker 1: to be like he did what he did and it
Speaker 1: was wrong. Yeah, he's going to be more villainized than
Speaker 1: a white celebrity. And so therefore, how do you balance this,
Speaker 1: Like how do you balance justice at the same time
Speaker 1: and justice correctly done across the boards. It's kind of
Speaker 1: one of those things. And again it comes back to
Speaker 1: the question of black women feeling the need to protect
Speaker 1: their men black or not just their men black that
Speaker 1: in general, and not having that reciprocated or often than not.
Speaker 1: And I've said the word sage noir a lot and
Speaker 1: I haven't explained it. Do you want to explain it? Um? Sure, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, in a the long and the short of
Speaker 1: it is, massagynar is basically any kind of like action
Speaker 1: or thought that is opposing like the values in the
Speaker 1: the humanization of women, and massageynar is specifically about black women.
Speaker 1: And that's something that goes back thousands of years, you know,
Speaker 1: something that we have been dealing with since we got
Speaker 1: to America. Feeling as if, um, black women are superhuman,
Speaker 1: so they can withhold or with sand inordinate amounts of pain.
Speaker 1: Um you know that they can bear like any kind
Speaker 1: of hardship without feeling emotion. Um it's basically this thought
Speaker 1: that black women don't deserve the same respect or the
Speaker 1: same like extension of concern as a white woman, as
Speaker 1: a white man, um as anybody that is not deemed
Speaker 1: the baseline of like you know, when you turn on
Speaker 1: the TV, who do you see? You know, it's like
Speaker 1: typically it's going to be a white man or white woman.
Speaker 1: So um so yeah, it's definitely just it's a term
Speaker 1: that like I didn't become familiar with until um I
Speaker 1: moved out of Texas, you know, and that was like
Speaker 1: I had experienced it for sure, but um I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what the word to put to it
Speaker 1: was until I got to NPR and I started talking
Speaker 1: to like Jeane Demby, and he's super smart, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, so I'm like, oh, what's
Speaker 1: this word? You know? So I'm like doing my googles
Speaker 1: and trying to figure it out, and I'm like, oh, snap,
Speaker 1: Like this is exactly what I've experienced in the past, exactly.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was termed in two thousand ten by
Speaker 1: Maya Bailey because it's so specific that it needed it.
Speaker 1: It it's kind of how we talked about intersectional feminism
Speaker 1: and while we have to differentiate that from feminism, why
Speaker 1: that is so important And you see that as the
Speaker 1: layer of oh, this is bad, but this is even worse,
Speaker 1: and this is where we're falling apart here and it's
Speaker 1: a bigger issue. And until this is resolved, the bad
Speaker 1: thing can't be resolved. And it's kind of the same thing.
Speaker 1: And it is interesting that we've gotten to the point,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of hip hop in general, um and
Speaker 1: especially black women coin And we talked about language for
Speaker 1: a while, kind of point many of phrases that we
Speaker 1: use today and that is popular, that is very useful
Speaker 1: in this word specific today is it is exactly what
Speaker 1: it is, and it's exactly why we have a breakdown,
Speaker 1: and misogyny can't be resolved until massogy noir is resolved first, exactly,
Speaker 1: So thank you. Sorry, I can't realize I throw words
Speaker 1: around without explaining this and forget that not everyone has
Speaker 1: to so not everyone has this job. Sorry, we have
Speaker 1: a lot more to cover in this conversation, listeners, but
Speaker 1: first we have a quick break for work Timmer sponsors
Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you sponsors. Let's get back into it. So, um,
Speaker 1: if we if we look specifically at Megan the stallion, Um,
Speaker 1: why do you think there is such a divide when
Speaker 1: it comes to believing her or victim blaming her? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, number one, as we are, this
Speaker 1: whole conversation is about number one. She's a woman, So
Speaker 1: we're not gonna listen to a woman over a man
Speaker 1: just because of how the society has built Number two,
Speaker 1: she's a black woman. We just talked about massage and
Speaker 1: nor and number three she's extremely attractive. You know, she's
Speaker 1: someone that has built her career on how beautiful she is.
Speaker 1: And that's not like I remember when I first started
Speaker 1: listening to her, I was like, wow, Like she is
Speaker 1: so subversive, Like she figured out a way to turn
Speaker 1: men's desires into her own power and really like come
Speaker 1: into her own and step into her own and be
Speaker 1: somebody who knows exactly what she wants and knows exactly
Speaker 1: how to you know, distribute like her feelings of strength
Speaker 1: to her listeners. So, um, yeah, she's very very sexual.
Speaker 1: She's very attractive, and she uses her body in a
Speaker 1: way that like a lot of people don't. You know,
Speaker 1: She's just very very um innovative in that way. And
Speaker 1: I think that because her body is such a big
Speaker 1: part of her her act, I think people don't take
Speaker 1: assaults on her body as seriously as they would a
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, you know, who doesn't like go out there
Speaker 1: and t work and like doesn't like do things that
Speaker 1: that the people like Megan or um you know, other
Speaker 1: rappers who may following her footstep ups do so um yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it has a lot to do with the
Speaker 1: fact that we're so used to like objectifying her and
Speaker 1: now we're like taking that to another level in terms
Speaker 1: of okay, like now you know, oh she got shot
Speaker 1: in the foot. Oh that's funny. Like she works with
Speaker 1: her feet. Uh ha, Let's make a joke about like
Speaker 1: the fact that she can't work anymore, and like where
Speaker 1: is her money going to come from? And we're not
Speaker 1: gonna think, you know, it's just like this this like
Speaker 1: extension and extension, Like it just goes beyond um, you know,
Speaker 1: any real point of concern. And that's the thing. Like
Speaker 1: I had a conversation with some friends recently and we
Speaker 1: were just kind of like, if she had been killed,
Speaker 1: like this would be a completely different story. Like it'd
Speaker 1: be like, oh, this is tragic. She was so young,
Speaker 1: she was so talented, but she got shot, like and
Speaker 1: it wasn't life threatening thing goodness, And now it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, we you know, we can wipe our brow
Speaker 1: on that one and move on. But let's like crack
Speaker 1: some jokes along the way. Um you know. I think
Speaker 1: that's a big part of it. And it's like it's
Speaker 1: really frustrating because say Tory Lanes have been shot by somebody,
Speaker 1: it would be a different situation. It would be like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, he survived. Um, you know, he's while
Speaker 1: he's a real man now, like he you know, he's
Speaker 1: you know, fifty cent got shot nine times and he
Speaker 1: you know, like he used that in a song, like
Speaker 1: he made a movie about it. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: it's all this stuff. So it's like why when a
Speaker 1: man goes through a certain situation, like we say that
Speaker 1: this is like proven that he's like a g you know,
Speaker 1: like he made it out. He he made it through.
Speaker 1: But when a woman gets shot, it's like, let's crack
Speaker 1: jokes and let's pretend like she's not actually healing right now, right? Um? Yeah.
Speaker 1: And as in fact, as I'm watching the comments unfold
Speaker 1: and the misogynalsogy, Noir was ridiculously staggering everything from him
Speaker 1: blaming her because he was masculine. And when I'm just
Speaker 1: old thinking, like, who the hell thing she's masculine? Have
Speaker 1: you seen her exactly? I mean nothing about her those masculine.
Speaker 1: She's got a deep voice, Okay, she raps. How is
Speaker 1: that making her any more masculine than anyone? You say
Speaker 1: that's masculine, that's a whole new definition. That's fine because
Speaker 1: that that needs to go out the window anyway. But
Speaker 1: like that she was too masculine to be empathized with.
Speaker 1: They couldn't empathize with that because obviously she can handle it,
Speaker 1: or just saying that she was getting um she knew
Speaker 1: what she was getting into because of the person that
Speaker 1: she was with, as if she deserved it, because she
Speaker 1: gave a man a chance that may have a volatile
Speaker 1: past or may talk a big game about having a
Speaker 1: volatile past um, or just plain now saying she's lying
Speaker 1: that that those things just kind of blew my mind.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here watching that unfold. I'm going why she's
Speaker 1: not even the one that's saying anything. And until people
Speaker 1: started accusing her of this BS, she finally had to
Speaker 1: be like, hey, stop, this is not funny. I have
Speaker 1: to defend myself. Why do you think this is often
Speaker 1: the action for violence against black women and especially in
Speaker 1: the music industry. You kind of already talking into that,
Speaker 1: But again, why do you think this is just the
Speaker 1: automatic reaction? Because we saw that happen to Rihanna too, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Rihanna until her platures were leaked. Yeah, I think a
Speaker 1: big part of this is. I mean, and she kind
Speaker 1: of like came out later and like showed her feet,
Speaker 1: like where she had the stitches and everything like that.
Speaker 1: Like I think just culturally, we're in a place where
Speaker 1: if we don't see it. We don't connect to it,
Speaker 1: like we're especially because of like you know, the Black
Speaker 1: Lives Matter movement and like you know, us seeing so
Speaker 1: much violence against black people on a regular basis, Like
Speaker 1: you know, like Brianna Taylor, for example, we didn't see
Speaker 1: that happen, so we don't have justice for her, you know.
Speaker 1: Like but with George Floyd, um, we saw that happen.
Speaker 1: I didn't watch it. I can't watch it before of
Speaker 1: those videos, but you know, it's like we saw that happen,
Speaker 1: and he was a man, so it was kind of like, okay,
Speaker 1: like this is serious. Let's get on the streets. Even
Speaker 1: though we have this VI was going on, Let's do
Speaker 1: whatever we need to do to get this done. And
Speaker 1: and so to bring it back to Megan, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: because we didn't see her actually like you know, get shot.
Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of why people are like,
Speaker 1: you know, she's lying or let's make a joke or
Speaker 1: let's do this or whatever. Like I think that's a
Speaker 1: big part of it. But also, you know, like like
Speaker 1: we were saying, after the Chris Brownd and Rihanna situation happened,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people were still hesitant to
Speaker 1: believe Rihanna or or quick to say, well what does
Speaker 1: she do to him? You know, like it's always like how,
Speaker 1: like how did this situation play out? As if it's
Speaker 1: any of our business? Number one and number two, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, like just just the simple fact that we're
Speaker 1: not privy to the conversations that these people have, the
Speaker 1: relationships that these people have, the way that they interact
Speaker 1: with each other. There are so many layers to this,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's like, you know, I unfortunately I have
Speaker 1: like friends and family members who have been in abusive
Speaker 1: situations and um, even like in public, and people have
Speaker 1: like not done anything to help them. And it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, like there was a specific situation where, um,
Speaker 1: someone that I know was you know being hit outside
Speaker 1: of a club and then when she started hitting the man,
Speaker 1: that's when everybody came up and was like, well, what
Speaker 1: are you doing? You can't do that, you can't do that.
Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, as a black woman, we
Speaker 1: just expect people too to always defend the black man.
Speaker 1: And it's I think it's because black men have been
Speaker 1: through so much historically, you know, from him until um,
Speaker 1: you know, there there are so many stories that we
Speaker 1: don't even know that black men have been through. So
Speaker 1: it's like we automatically want to wrap our arms around
Speaker 1: them and say, hey, we got you, Like we're never
Speaker 1: gonna let you down, We're never gonna like put you
Speaker 1: out on the street, We're never going to do this.
Speaker 1: So that's a big part of it as well. But yeah,
Speaker 1: with Megan, I just it's just it's mind boggling. Like
Speaker 1: you said, it's baffling. It's I I can't make cancer
Speaker 1: tales of it. And for that reason, like and a
Speaker 1: few other reasons, but definitely because it was like, because
Speaker 1: of that situation, I took a step away from social media.
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't even know what is going
Speaker 1: on with people anymore, like to make a joke about
Speaker 1: somebody being shot, like literally like come on. So um, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a long way of saying she deserves way more
Speaker 1: than she's getting, right, and you are right. Maybe part
Speaker 1: of this is the normalizing of having gun incidents, which
Speaker 1: is baffling in itself, because I'm like, if you think
Speaker 1: on your own, how many of you had, you know,
Speaker 1: people who want to make these criticisms really have that
Speaker 1: at several level of experience. You know, it's just kind
Speaker 1: of like, why are we taking this as if it's
Speaker 1: not a big deal. Shot, no matter where, no matter
Speaker 1: what whatever, being shot is a trauma period. So this
Speaker 1: is a whole weird conversation that we're having that it's
Speaker 1: like not a big deal. Yeah, that's a big deal.
Speaker 1: It's a huge deal. But yeah, I just I think
Speaker 1: I'm just it's just watching this unfold. There's so many things,
Speaker 1: but this is watching this unfold in the middle of
Speaker 1: what is happening in our country and itself is just
Speaker 1: very evident of why movements like say her name is important,
Speaker 1: Why movements? Uh, like these conversations that we're having with
Speaker 1: me too, like why these are important? But it's not
Speaker 1: being recognized in the areas that need really need to
Speaker 1: focus on exactly. Yeah, And it's like there's like this
Speaker 1: nucleus of like impenetrable like layers that hip hop exists in.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like we can't we can't like fight
Speaker 1: our way into it for some reason, and right, I
Speaker 1: think it's man like hip hop is just a huge thing,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's the most listen to genre in
Speaker 1: the world and or at least in the us, and um,
Speaker 1: it's just like an incredible force. It informs so much
Speaker 1: of what we do culturally, not just black culture, pop
Speaker 1: culture at large. It's such a big part of how
Speaker 1: we function. And I think for that reason, we're afraid
Speaker 1: to really take it, you know, take it down to size.
Speaker 1: We're afraid to like pare it down and say, here
Speaker 1: are the rotten layers and let's get to the core
Speaker 1: and let's try to figure out like how we can
Speaker 1: make this better for everybody, because right now it's like men,
Speaker 1: you know, like men running, men reap the rewards. Um.
Speaker 1: And that's just talking about the people that we see visibly,
Speaker 1: Like we're not talking about the white men at the
Speaker 1: top who are really making the money. Um. And you
Speaker 1: know who knows the conversations that they're having up there.
Speaker 1: You know about artists like an XXX artist like a
Speaker 1: rich the Kid or a famous dexter who um, have
Speaker 1: literally been documented doing heinous things and nothing happens. So um, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's like these artists are you know,
Speaker 1: cash cows for a lot of a lot of these
Speaker 1: labels and a lot of these companies. And I think
Speaker 1: that there might be some orchestrations behind the scenes. I
Speaker 1: don't know this, you know, like from from experience, but
Speaker 1: I can only imagine like that these people want to
Speaker 1: protect their pockets, so you know, they're probably doing as
Speaker 1: much as they can to make sure that the wheels
Speaker 1: keep turning and the gears keep moving and the money
Speaker 1: keeps coming in. Right, And then the way you say there,
Speaker 1: it seems to be a hierarchy of who is expendable
Speaker 1: and who is not exactly. Yeah, speaking of Megan, her
Speaker 1: newest hit Woff with Cardi B had a lot of
Speaker 1: people socket yes, yes, uh, And it's been an ongoing
Speaker 1: conversation and uh kind of controversy see about women really
Speaker 1: talking about sex and wanting sex. That's something we've talked
Speaker 1: about on the show a lot. Why do you think
Speaker 1: this double standard, especially in hip hop, in the hip
Speaker 1: hop industry is so overwhelming and ongoing? I think, oh
Speaker 1: my thoughts. I think men just don't want women to
Speaker 1: have anything. And that's that's me being like experience, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of the workplace, in terms of you know,
Speaker 1: dealing with artists. Um, you know, when it comes down
Speaker 1: to it, any woman that is going to say I
Speaker 1: want this and I want it now, you know, like
Speaker 1: any man who's going to be like, well, I mean
Speaker 1: you should ask me to give that to you, you know,
Speaker 1: like you shouldn't. You shouldn't say that you wanted. I
Speaker 1: want you to ask me for it, and it's like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna tell you. So yeah, I think I
Speaker 1: think it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many people
Speaker 1: up in arms about the song, especially because like a
Speaker 1: male artist put out a song that was just like
Speaker 1: about like wanting sex and nobody bad it than I.
Speaker 1: But that's like literally half the music, it's out right,
Speaker 1: you know, even if it's called like two in rams,
Speaker 1: Like half the song is about like wanting sex and
Speaker 1: getting sex and having thirty women and you know, feeling
Speaker 1: like they're the man because they've slept with you know,
Speaker 1: X amount of those women. So it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: like I don't I wish I had like a very
Speaker 1: very straightforward like this is why men are upset because
Speaker 1: it's mainly man and it's some women too, you know.
Speaker 1: It's some women being like yeah, like why are you
Speaker 1: talking about your vagina? You know, like and it's like, well,
Speaker 1: like why can he talk about his penis? And nothing
Speaker 1: happens like he gets to do what he wants to do.
Speaker 1: So um, yeah, it's just very much like we've been
Speaker 1: using the words baffled, buffuddling, like it's confusing, like I
Speaker 1: don't understand and it does not compute, Like I'm having
Speaker 1: such an issue like like that's whapp is my sister's
Speaker 1: favorite song right now, Like she's thirty two, she's grown,
Speaker 1: but like you know, um, like as soon as we
Speaker 1: saw the video, like we were like watching um the
Speaker 1: YouTube live where her and Megan were like taking shots
Speaker 1: and like getting ready for the video to come out
Speaker 1: and everything. And then we watched the video and we
Speaker 1: watched the video again, and then we listened to the
Speaker 1: real version and we were like, oh, okay, like let's
Speaker 1: do it. Let's do it. So we were like we
Speaker 1: were thrilled, we were excited. And and then like the
Speaker 1: next day, like we got up and she checked her
Speaker 1: social media because like I said, I'm not really on
Speaker 1: social and you know, she was just kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: people were talking about it, but they're not saying what
Speaker 1: I thought they'd be saying. And um, you know, as
Speaker 1: soon as I heard that, like Megan and CARTI had
Speaker 1: a song together, I knew it was gonna be some
Speaker 1: freak stuff. You know. I was like, of course, like
Speaker 1: they are coming together, they're joining forces, like they are
Speaker 1: going to be on some stuff. So and they were,
Speaker 1: and there's nothing wrong with that and if anything, like
Speaker 1: you know, it just reminds me of like little Kim,
Speaker 1: you know, like when she came out and you know,
Speaker 1: like people were taken aback, but they you know, they
Speaker 1: clutched their pearls for a little bit and then they
Speaker 1: were like, Okay, this is who came in. Like you know,
Speaker 1: she can come out with the hardcore and talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever she wants to do, and we accept
Speaker 1: her for that. So I'm hoping moving forward, like it's
Speaker 1: kind of like Kim like kicked the door open and
Speaker 1: then did what she had to do, and then like
Speaker 1: you know, things happened in her career or whatever, and
Speaker 1: the doors kind of like aked back closed, and now
Speaker 1: like Cardi and Megan are like kicking that door open again,
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping, I'm really hoping that the door will
Speaker 1: stay open for women to be able to continue talking
Speaker 1: about their preferences, their proclivities. They're like whatever they want,
Speaker 1: because men do it with reckless abandon and there are
Speaker 1: no consequences. So yeah, yeah, and I'm with you. I
Speaker 1: loved it. I was like, oh, look, they have all
Speaker 1: these women featured. There was the one I was confused by,
Speaker 1: but you know whatever, I think everybody had just sat
Speaker 1: there and hold. I was like, what, okay, but you know,
Speaker 1: they were celebrating women, celebrating women what they do. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I loved all of it, and that that's It's
Speaker 1: not the first time. Missy Elliott did it too. She's
Speaker 1: like Missy like she would call then out and she
Speaker 1: would have them on the damn song to call them out.
Speaker 1: It was oh my god, yes, even like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like Missy is I'm so glad you mentioned her because
Speaker 1: she was the definition of subversive, Like she was so
Speaker 1: unafraid and is so unafraid to step up and be like,
Speaker 1: you know, um, what's the song. Well, I've been listening
Speaker 1: to hot Boys a lot, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: she's just kind of like, oh is that your car? Oh?
Speaker 1: Can you can be my day? Can you can you
Speaker 1: do this? Can we be together? Like? And she's like
Speaker 1: unafraid to be like like a bird, to be frank,
Speaker 1: you know, like she's just like, oh, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm out here and you're out here, so
Speaker 1: why can't we be out here together? And so I
Speaker 1: think that's like, you know, of course she was a
Speaker 1: little bit more. She was direct, but she wasn't like
Speaker 1: as fourth right as whap is. She was more like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna play with your I'm gonna play with your
Speaker 1: mind a little bit. I'm gonna like use these other
Speaker 1: terms and like, you know, kind of like skate around
Speaker 1: it in an artful way. Not to say that like
Speaker 1: whop isn't artful, because I think those verses are great,
Speaker 1: but um, yeah, you know, yeah exactly, yes, exactly exactly,
Speaker 1: and Missy it's purposeful exactly when she wants to be
Speaker 1: so um you know, it's just like some songs, you know,
Speaker 1: she'll kind of skate around it and you know, be cute,
Speaker 1: see and then some songs she'll come out and be
Speaker 1: like look I don't want a minute, man, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, I mean that song is exactly
Speaker 1: what you're thinking, is yes, but yeah, that's the thing
Speaker 1: is like this is such a weird thing, Like why
Speaker 1: are people surprised again that Megan the Stallion with Cardi B.
Speaker 1: Are gonna have this type of lyrics just because you
Speaker 1: wanted to be a little more uh inn window, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean it kind of is already with
Speaker 1: the title, but you know it's gonna come out and
Speaker 1: it's gonna smack you in the face. It's gonna be
Speaker 1: very real what they're saying. And that's exactly who they are,
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what they've never tried to hide that
Speaker 1: as who they are as artists. So why are people shocked?
Speaker 1: A b uh yeah, it is the same level of
Speaker 1: why can't they be what is this shock? And all?
Speaker 1: Like you've heard work from our current president and you're
Speaker 1: really really really shocked by a song? Yeah, not doing good.
Speaker 1: I'm not doing good with this, but yeah, like what
Speaker 1: what is this shock of what's happening today? And why
Speaker 1: especially when it's in a positive format like yeah, exactly, mahas,
Speaker 1: but it's consent. Come on, yeah, it's consent. And it's
Speaker 1: like why I'm not trying to talk down on man,
Speaker 1: I'm trying so hard not to. But like they can
Speaker 1: you know, they can make a song and say that
Speaker 1: they're like gonna slip up a drug in someone's drink
Speaker 1: and they're gonna have a good time, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: so you can. That song can hit top ten on
Speaker 1: Billboard and nobody back tonight. But you know, we well
Speaker 1: what what did he go? Number one? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: so thank goodness, which I was like, I don't know
Speaker 1: about this one because you know, in terms of streaming
Speaker 1: and everything, but hey, they did it. Um, But yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just kind of like, I just question
Speaker 1: our values when we can listen to two powerful women
Speaker 1: speak about what they want consentually, as she said, and
Speaker 1: we're taken aback by that and we're disgusted by that.
Speaker 1: Like that just kind of speaks to the level of
Speaker 1: power that we have as women in this country, you know,
Speaker 1: like that just kind of speaks to the level of
Speaker 1: respect that we have and the amount of just grace
Speaker 1: that we're extended. You know, like we're just there. We
Speaker 1: have We've come very far obviously, but like we have
Speaker 1: so much work to do in this country, in this industry, um,
Speaker 1: you know, in hip hop specifically, there's like a lot
Speaker 1: to be said and done because we shouldn't be having
Speaker 1: you know, I'm glad, I'm grateful to be having this
Speaker 1: conversation but like, we shouldn't be talking about me and
Speaker 1: getting shot. We shouldn't be talking about like people being
Speaker 1: up in arms about a song about sex, like what
Speaker 1: you know, it just doesn't make any sense. So I'm
Speaker 1: hopeful that, like I said, like the doors will remain
Speaker 1: open so people can continue having the freedom to speak
Speaker 1: about what they want and what they need in their lives.
Speaker 1: But for now, like we're gonna keep talking about this stuff,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, all right, you know, let's at least
Speaker 1: let's try to educate people and like expose people with
Speaker 1: the different perspectives. Right, we do have some more for
Speaker 1: you listeners, but first we have one more quick break
Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsors, and we're back. Thank
Speaker 1: you sponsored UM, And I did have one last question
Speaker 1: and it involves hip hop, but mainly just to your
Speaker 1: personal experiences, because as I'm researching UM different things in
Speaker 1: this industry, even journalists, female journalists trying to talk about
Speaker 1: hip hop, which can be enjoyed by all people want
Speaker 1: everyone to enjoy so they can make that money. It's loveliest,
Speaker 1: this is exactly what needs to happen. But even one
Speaker 1: of our Atlanta hip hop journalists talked about how she
Speaker 1: immediate they got accused of not accused, but being said, Oh, oh,
Speaker 1: your boyfriend or your husband must have gotten you into
Speaker 1: hip hop. Oh the reason you like hip hop or
Speaker 1: than the white because you know it so well, it's
Speaker 1: because of some man teaching you these things. And then
Speaker 1: you look at the limited amount of women that are
Speaker 1: able to be professionals in this type of industry is
Speaker 1: so small. Why do you think, I mean, the obvious
Speaker 1: answer is misogyny, thank you overall, like in territorial related
Speaker 1: like in conversations. But how do you think that people
Speaker 1: are gonna be able to more women are gonna be
Speaker 1: able to get into this industry, to be able to
Speaker 1: talk about something they love like hip hop? Yeah? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: Well I just want to say my mom introduced me
Speaker 1: to hip hop, like and that's like my that's one
Speaker 1: of my proudest things to say. Like she you know,
Speaker 1: she was listening to like crazy stuff like like horrorcore,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm like, yes, like, give me more
Speaker 1: put into my veins. So that's why I love like
Speaker 1: so much, like so many different kinds of rappids, because
Speaker 1: my mom was not afraid to like dig into things
Speaker 1: and like, you know, like exposed for children to like
Speaker 1: wrap that was that wasn't exactly four kids, but like
Speaker 1: if it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be doing what
Speaker 1: I do today. So, um, I just want to put
Speaker 1: that out there, and UM, yeah, So I really hope
Speaker 1: that like right now, there's honestly it's it's like kind
Speaker 1: of ebbing and fluence, but there's definitely a cultural reckoning
Speaker 1: happening where people are being open about their experiences and
Speaker 1: being open about their their times with companies. Like you know,
Speaker 1: I came out and spoke out about my experience that
Speaker 1: Complex and how you know, as a black woman, I
Speaker 1: was treated like prap and you know, I I was
Speaker 1: really afraid to do that, but I understood that, like
Speaker 1: I want to make that place isn't going anywhere. You know,
Speaker 1: like we may have given it a black eye, but
Speaker 1: Complex isn't isn't going anywhere. So I want to make
Speaker 1: that place better for the next woman that comes behind me.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a way that we're going to
Speaker 1: be able to like systemically change the industry. Like even
Speaker 1: from a journalistic perspective, is by saying like, hey, I
Speaker 1: had this experience, I don't want you to have that experience.
Speaker 1: Even before I signed the NBA, I called every black
Speaker 1: woman I knew, and I was like, this is what
Speaker 1: happened to me. I just want you to be aware,
Speaker 1: look out, like take care of yourself. And so I
Speaker 1: think like, for so long it's been a whisper network
Speaker 1: of like how to stay safe and how to get
Speaker 1: ahead and how to do X y Z. And now
Speaker 1: like we're much more public, we're much more open, and
Speaker 1: we're much more uh you know bold, you know, we're
Speaker 1: not afraid anymore. And um, for so long, I think
Speaker 1: we've been kind of held under a thumb of like, well,
Speaker 1: you should be lucky to be here, you know, you
Speaker 1: should be lucky that you had to have the opportunity
Speaker 1: to have this experience. And the truth, the honest truth,
Speaker 1: is they are lucky to have us because, like number one,
Speaker 1: we are delving into topics and addressing things and just
Speaker 1: shedding light on so many issues that frankly, like men
Speaker 1: don't think about when it comes to hip hop. Like
Speaker 1: you know, when I came up with the dominant woman
Speaker 1: UM idea for complex, like nobody else was talking about that,
Speaker 1: Like I said, you know, even in the meetings, it
Speaker 1: was like, oh, you know, Card might come up in
Speaker 1: conversation and Niki might come up in conversation, but nobody
Speaker 1: was connecting the dots. So um, you know, I really
Speaker 1: hope that these companies will, in these organizations and these
Speaker 1: um publications will see the value that we bring to
Speaker 1: the table, because there are obviously like tons of men
Speaker 1: in the rap game who can benefit from speaking to
Speaker 1: the women journalists, just because like when it comes to
Speaker 1: like men conversing with men, they're just kind of like, oh, bro,
Speaker 1: you know, let's talk about this. You know, unless they're
Speaker 1: like super super professional, But like the conversations that I've seen,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, so you really just like I had
Speaker 1: a homey conversation. Okay, you didn't really like ask any
Speaker 1: real questions, all right, Um, but you know, and then
Speaker 1: there's like just a simple fact that like there are
Speaker 1: women in this game too, and not every woman wants
Speaker 1: to talk to a man, especially when it comes to
Speaker 1: like the first conversation I had with Megan for Complex
Speaker 1: and the end of um, you know, I was asking
Speaker 1: her like, why do you think people you know, and
Speaker 1: even at that point we were talking about her lyrics,
Speaker 1: and I was like, why do you think some people
Speaker 1: say that your lyrics are too explicit, Like what would
Speaker 1: you say to those people? And she was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to rap about what I don't do.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna wrap about popping pills and shooting people.
Speaker 1: It was just so bizarre that she said that. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, she was like, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to rap about that because that's not what I do.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna wrap about my body and what I like
Speaker 1: to do with my body. And I just don't imagine
Speaker 1: like a man asking her that question. So, you know,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I really just hope that, UM,
Speaker 1: we continue to be open in about our experiences, because
Speaker 1: I think that's the genuine, honest way that we're going
Speaker 1: to see some movement happen. And I really, UM, I
Speaker 1: have a lot of hope. I do, and my hope
Speaker 1: lies in the people that I support. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: there are so many great writers. UM. Taylor Crumpton is
Speaker 1: an amazing writer. She um actually wrote a piece about
Speaker 1: you know, Megan's shooting and how yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: she's UM an incredible writer. UM. E v A. Annie
Speaker 1: is a great writer. She used to work for Okay
Speaker 1: Player now she's a freelancer as well. Shamira Ibrahim is
Speaker 1: a great writer as well. I could list so many people,
Speaker 1: but you know, I just the thing is, we're all
Speaker 1: freelancers right now, you know, and we want homes, you know,
Speaker 1: we want to be able to like settle in somewhere
Speaker 1: and have the support in the development and um, you know,
Speaker 1: the tutelage. You know, we want those things, and we're
Speaker 1: doing great right now. But I really hope, like in
Speaker 1: the next year or two, we can all find a
Speaker 1: place to land so we can really like settle in
Speaker 1: for years. As some of these journalists like a John Karamanica,
Speaker 1: you know, he's been at the Times for decades or
Speaker 1: you know, at least a decade now, and he's doing
Speaker 1: amazing work there. But like I would love to see
Speaker 1: a black woman in a similar position. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: when we actually see that happen, and when we see that,
Speaker 1: we can stop having cancel culture, which is not even
Speaker 1: again you said it before, No one truly get canceled.
Speaker 1: That's that's not a thing unless they insignificant people with
Speaker 1: menial jobs over you know, and they get canceled for
Speaker 1: something them. Everybody's fine. Everybody is fine. That it's it's
Speaker 1: interesting to see like this whole label when it's not
Speaker 1: just it's not canceling, it's just a rectifying of what's happening.
Speaker 1: And I know that took a lot of toll on
Speaker 1: you as an individual coming out and um, of course
Speaker 1: i'd love to see the support because people were supporting
Speaker 1: you and that, But the fact that you had to
Speaker 1: go through all of that nonsense and anxiety and overall
Speaker 1: like compromise in yourself, like what do I do? How
Speaker 1: do I help the situation? Is It's incredibly encouraging but
Speaker 1: disheartening to see at the same time. You don't want
Speaker 1: to see or fellow people through having to do this
Speaker 1: bs to try to correct a situation exactly. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: you know, leaving complex was one of the most difficult things,
Speaker 1: you know, that I've had to do. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm bipolar type one and that um comes with
Speaker 1: depression in mania and I was swinging back and forth
Speaker 1: through those things when I was going through the my
Speaker 1: exit because I was emotionally all over the place and
Speaker 1: extreme stress triggers my episodes, and that was an extremely
Speaker 1: stressful period and I ended up having to be hospitalized
Speaker 1: right after that. So, um, you know, it was like
Speaker 1: it was it was just a really sad situation because
Speaker 1: I worked really, really hard to get there and even
Speaker 1: though I had some people warned me along the way,
Speaker 1: like I'm not sure if that's a you want to go,
Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, I busted my tail.
Speaker 1: I did what I had to do. I want to
Speaker 1: be here, and I I thugged it out for like
Speaker 1: almost two years, and then it just got to a
Speaker 1: point where, you know, it just hit a hit a
Speaker 1: peek where I couldn't handle all the things that were
Speaker 1: coming at me anymore. And you know, I tried to
Speaker 1: be as graceful as I could, and you know, at
Speaker 1: the time it was really scary, but like the scariest
Speaker 1: part was like losing my voice. And um, I'm forever
Speaker 1: indebted to Tiffany Wines. She's the former Complex employee who
Speaker 1: came out and spoke out and invited me to come
Speaker 1: out with her. And I was like, you know, for
Speaker 1: so long I was him and han I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. And then eventually I
Speaker 1: was like, you know what, nothing is going to change
Speaker 1: if we don't speak up and um, you know, thankfully
Speaker 1: there have been people in other publications who have had
Speaker 1: similar experiences come out and say their own stories. And
Speaker 1: I feel like that's really the only way that we're
Speaker 1: going to move forward and the only way that we're
Speaker 1: going to like expand as an industry is you know,
Speaker 1: as if we if we're if we're open and honest
Speaker 1: with ourselves. Yeah. I hate that it takes that told though,
Speaker 1: that you have to be that vulnerable in order to
Speaker 1: get just a justice in any sort of way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but uh, I want to thank you for that. I know,
Speaker 1: for so many people who are in this, in your
Speaker 1: industry that take us a lot of courage to even
Speaker 1: try because it's not for you. This doesn't benefit you
Speaker 1: would any least way. Nothing about this that's like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: this is really fun for me. Yeah, not at all.
Speaker 1: It was. You know, I still can't believe I did it, honestly,
Speaker 1: Like I'm just like Kiana what like, But you know,
Speaker 1: I had to do it, you know, like I I
Speaker 1: had to, Like I would have regretted it for the
Speaker 1: rest of my life if I hadn't come out and
Speaker 1: spoken out because there are just so many people who
Speaker 1: I feel like they don't have a voice, and at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, like journalism is about giving
Speaker 1: voice to the voiceless. And even if I'm not doing
Speaker 1: that through my medium, which is like exactly what I do,
Speaker 1: what I do for um, I still I am so
Speaker 1: focused on, like how can I benefit the black woman
Speaker 1: coming behind me? How can I benefit the black woman
Speaker 1: above me? How can we all you know, mutually assist
Speaker 1: each other. Like that's such a big part of what
Speaker 1: I do, and I try to even in my writing,
Speaker 1: like I try to speak to people who like need
Speaker 1: that extra you know, arm or that extra hand or whatever.
Speaker 1: Like I'd be lying if I said that, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to interview like the biggest stars and
Speaker 1: you know, the biggest rappers or whatever. Like of course
Speaker 1: I want to do that, but at this point, like
Speaker 1: I love talking to like the Chicas, and I love
Speaker 1: talking to you know, the people who are like have
Speaker 1: so much potential, but like people aren't quite on board
Speaker 1: with them yet for whatever reason, you know, Like I
Speaker 1: really that's where that's like my bread and butter, that's
Speaker 1: how I live and breathe. So yeah, that kind of
Speaker 1: like is you know, in tandem with how I treat
Speaker 1: my professional career. You know, I try to always work
Speaker 1: with people who I can assist, who can assist me.
Speaker 1: How can we all kind of work together and like build,
Speaker 1: you know, because at the end of the day, like
Speaker 1: this is what we love to do, and we're very
Speaker 1: very blessed to be able to do what we love
Speaker 1: and I want to try to keep this going for
Speaker 1: as long as I possibly can, right And kind of
Speaker 1: when when we're talking about you know, Patreon, it's it's
Speaker 1: so open and vulnerable. Uh and and I think you
Speaker 1: do a phenomenal job in conveying all things that you
Speaker 1: you see and shotle Weather and I appreciate that and
Speaker 1: kind of just a buit it out there. What is
Speaker 1: your patreons that people can go and sign up? Banana? Well, absolutely,
Speaker 1: um so my Patreon and most of my socials, um
Speaker 1: have the same core um you know name, it's Kiana fits.
Speaker 1: So patreon dot com slash k I A and A
Speaker 1: F I t Z Kiana fits and um that's my
Speaker 1: Twitter as well. My Instagram is outboxed, but you don't
Speaker 1: need you know, that's it's if you want to go.
Speaker 1: You know, it's out box with two excess. But my
Speaker 1: Patreon is where I really, like you said, I try
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable. I try to pour in as much
Speaker 1: as of myself as I can into that place because
Speaker 1: I you know, I am a freelancer and work comes
Speaker 1: when it comes, you know, it doesn't always hit me
Speaker 1: when I need it. So to be able to like
Speaker 1: be supported by people who can see the value in
Speaker 1: my work and see the value of my words. UM
Speaker 1: on a on a regular basis is really beauty cool.
Speaker 1: So if you want to support me there, I write
Speaker 1: about hip hop, I write about my bipolar disorder. I
Speaker 1: read about hip hop ambipolar, you know, talking about Kanye West. Um.
Speaker 1: I do a lot of delving into what makes me
Speaker 1: who I am. So yeah, if you want to check
Speaker 1: it out Patreon dot com, slash canfits awesome. Yeah, totally
Speaker 1: check that out. Is there anything else you want to
Speaker 1: shout out or highlight before we wrap up here? Oh? Man, um,
Speaker 1: listen to women rappers. I am so excited. Uh, Like
Speaker 1: I said, we have Milatta, we have lights Can Kisha,
Speaker 1: we have Flull Millie, we have Cheeka, we have Megan,
Speaker 1: we have the City Girls, we have Dolgi Cat like
Speaker 1: you know, I, like I said earlier, I'm a DJ
Speaker 1: as well, and my sister is like DJing two, and
Speaker 1: I was like, you need to make an all women mix,
Speaker 1: like you need to do this, So like that's gonna
Speaker 1: come out soon, so look out for that. But but yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just like thrilled that I can listen
Speaker 1: to a playlist for an hour and I don't have
Speaker 1: to hear AND's voice at all, you know, Like I
Speaker 1: of course I have my favorite rappers and they'll always
Speaker 1: be my favorite rappers that the men. But it's just
Speaker 1: a special feeling when you can listen to empowered, beautiful,
Speaker 1: strong women talk about their lives and talk about their
Speaker 1: experiences and be witty and be you know, smart and
Speaker 1: just so much fun. It's just a blast. So yeah,
Speaker 1: listen to your even listen to your local women rappers,
Speaker 1: I would say. And that brings us to the end
Speaker 1: of this interview. It was so good. Do you feel satisfied, Saanantha?
Speaker 1: I am. I feel like it's been a long time
Speaker 1: of coming, and I'm really excited to have more conversations
Speaker 1: like this and with her hopefully kind of having her
Speaker 1: back on the show. And you definitely should check out
Speaker 1: her Patreon because she is so open and especially for
Speaker 1: those who struggle with bipolar and and the issues that
Speaker 1: are happening today and what it looks like, especially when
Speaker 1: you're in an industry like she's talking about that you
Speaker 1: have to be willing to be open and and dig
Speaker 1: deep into the darkness to get to some of the points.
Speaker 1: So yeah, go check her out for sure. Definitely, definitely
Speaker 1: um and thanks again to her for joining us. If
Speaker 1: you would like to contact us, you can. We have
Speaker 1: an email and it is Stuff Media mom Stuff at
Speaker 1: i heeart media dot com. You can also find us
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at
Speaker 1: steff I'm Never told You. Thanks as always to our
Speaker 1: super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks Andrew, and thanks to you
Speaker 1: for listening. Stephane ever told you. It's a production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: is it the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.