Announcer: From CurtCo Media. Coming up on the show: "We have deep
Announcer: blue states and deep red states. And we have those
Announcer: purple states. But the fact is within each of those
Announcer: states we have a huge divide." (Music) So what are you
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Bill Curtis: That was Norman Ornstein. Our special guest today. But today's
Bill Curtis: a new day. Our country stands on the precipice of
Bill Curtis: a new future as we approach our paths forward. We
Bill Curtis: can choose to either get bogged down in silliness and
Bill Curtis: accusations or we can drive aggressively forward and focus instead
Bill Curtis: on building better lives for you for free for minorities
Bill Curtis: for poor for the next generation for workers and business
Bill Curtis: owners alike.
Bill Curtis: You know the expression the enemy of my enemy is
Bill Curtis: my friend. Well we in America have a common set
Bill Curtis: of enemies a virus hunger managing technology unemployment economic stresses
Bill Curtis: prejudices and anything or anyone that desires to destroy our future.
Bill Curtis: These are common enemies. So therefore all of us who
Bill Curtis: want to win those battles. We are all friends. This
Bill Curtis: is politics. MEET ME IN THE MIDDLE.
Bill Curtis: I'M BILL Curtis Well we've got a pivotal show today.
Bill Curtis: Our panel Ed Larson a Pulitzer Prize winning historian best
Bill Curtis: selling author a prolific lecturer and it's so nice to
Bill Curtis: see you today. Thanks for joining.
Ed Larson: Nice to see you and nice to see Norm.
Bill Curtis: Also zooming in Jane Albrecht. She's an international trade attorney
Bill Curtis: who fought for U.S. interests to high level government officials
Bill Curtis: all over the world. She has participated in numerous presidential campaigns.
Bill Curtis: Jane nice to remotely see you too.
Jane Albrecht: Great to see all of you and welcome norm we're
Jane Albrecht: so excited to have you so our special guest today
Bill Curtis: As you've heard, Norm Ornstein, he's the renowned political scientist
Bill Curtis: and resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute a conservative
Bill Curtis: think tank in Washington D.C. He's a contributing editor and
Bill Curtis: columnist for Well the National Journal of the Atlantic. You've
Bill Curtis: seen him on CBS CNN FOX NPR PBS and you've
Bill Curtis: read his articles and opinions everywhere that matters. Norm's books
Bill Curtis: include bestsellers a nation after Trump. And it's even worse
Bill Curtis: than it looks. Norm thanks so much for joining us.
Norm Ornstein: It's a real pleasure to be with all of you.
Bill Curtis: So recently on Christiane Amanpour' s show you said the only
Bill Curtis: thing that can overcome our challenges with this election is
Bill Curtis: a landslide victory where there is simply no question and
Bill Curtis: the votes that are disallowed just won't matter much. Well
Bill Curtis: Norm No such luck. So where does that leave us.
Norm Ornstein: So we don't have the landslide that we hoped for
Norm Ornstein: which would have covered not just the presidency but the
Norm Ornstein: House the Senate a number of state legislative chambers and
Norm Ornstein: other offices. We are now at a point though where
Norm Ornstein: with Biden winning the popular vote by what is likely
Norm Ornstein: to be more than five million what we're getting is
Norm Ornstein: a an electoral vote margin big enough that the mischief
Norm Ornstein: that could have followed from a closer electoral vote contest
Norm Ornstein: with Republicans doing all kinds of things to try and
Norm Ornstein: throw the election to the House of Representatives just is
Norm Ornstein: not a possibility at this point and a margin big
Norm Ornstein: enough that Biden can claim that he has the ability
Norm Ornstein: to move forward with what we hope will be bringing
Norm Ornstein: the nation back together again in a way that we
Norm Ornstein: haven't seen for some time.
Bill Curtis: Well let's look into a shorter horizon for just a minute.
Bill Curtis: And has there ever been a president that didn't really
Bill Curtis: accept being elected out of office.
Ed Larson: No not in this sense. There's never been any precedent
Ed Larson: like this. We've had some that have been bitter. John
Ed Larson: Adams refused to go to the inauguration of Thomas Jefferson
Ed Larson: very blatantly very rudely. But you know John Adams was
Ed Larson: always rude. But nothing like this no activity of whether
Ed Larson: you're actively reject the legitimacy of the election. Most Famous
Ed Larson: example probably that would be Grover Cleveland. Grover Cleveland was
Ed Larson: the incumbent president. He won the popular vote for re-election
Ed Larson: but in the weird twist he lost the electoral vote
Ed Larson: even he accepted that and gracefully stepped aside.
Bill Curtis: You know the question I have Norm for you is
Bill Curtis: as a country looking to move on. What do you
Bill Curtis: think we should be expecting from Mr. Trump even if
Bill Curtis: he does peacefully leave the office whether it takes a
Bill Curtis: tranquilizer in a net or some other fashion. Do you
Bill Curtis: expect some disruption and kind of a continuing cantankerous sort
Bill Curtis: of approach.
Norm Ornstein: So we know from Donald Trump's statements in the aftermath
Norm Ornstein: of the election statements that even normally cautious media outlets
Norm Ornstein: were saying we're a pack of lies about the election
Norm Ornstein: being stolen about how the only legitimate votes were the
Norm Ornstein: votes that he got. Statements that have been picked up
Norm Ornstein: on by a lot of people who are really odious
Norm Ornstein: and dangerous that we're not likely to see that change.
Norm Ornstein: To be blunt and brutal Donald Trump is a narcissistic
Norm Ornstein: sociopath and narcissistic sociopath especially those who have been there
Norm Ornstein: for their entire lives are not going to change very much.
Norm Ornstein: He is going to be bitter and resentful maybe at
Norm Ornstein: some point we will see him go through the fabled
Norm Ornstein: five stages of grief as it becomes clear that he's lost.
Norm Ornstein: But there is going to be a long lag before
Norm Ornstein: we get to acceptance and we know something else once
Norm Ornstein: we're at the point where the larger community has accepted
Norm Ornstein: that Joe Biden is the president elect. Donald Trump first
Norm Ornstein: is going to follow his instinct which is to do
Norm Ornstein: rallies every single day or as much as he can
Norm Ornstein: to continue to bask in the adulation that he gets
Norm Ornstein: from those people who still believe that he is a God.
Norm Ornstein: There is no incentive for a Donald Trump to turn
Norm Ornstein: a well running country over to his successor so that
Norm Ornstein: whatever good happens in the aftermath will have the credit
Norm Ornstein: going to Joe Biden and not to Donald Trump his
Norm Ornstein: incentive is to leave a scorched earth or Biden but
Norm Ornstein: also to use every bit of his executive power along
Norm Ornstein: the way to either accomplish his goals or put roadblocks
Norm Ornstein: in the way for Biden Trump is going to pardon
Norm Ornstein: himself and as many people as he can who are
Norm Ornstein: around him his family members his cabinet the White House
Norm Ornstein: staff and others there's going to be a tremendous incentive
Norm Ornstein: to make sure that evidence that could be incriminating for
Norm Ornstein: him or them is not to be found.
Bill Curtis: Can you pardon someone for a charge that hasn't been
Bill Curtis: levied yet.
Norm Ornstein: Yes you can. And the best example of that is
Norm Ornstein: Gerald Ford pardoning Richard Nixon. Remember though that pardons only
Norm Ornstein: affect federal offenses. And we know that the district attorney
Norm Ornstein: in New York City Attorney General in New York state
Norm Ornstein: are investigating him for potential crimes committed before he became president.
Norm Ornstein: We've got a lot of things going on there that
Norm Ornstein: are going to make Donald Trump very angry and upset
Norm Ornstein: when you look at the brilliance of his methods.
Bill Curtis: And then you listen carefully to his press conference from
Bill Curtis: just after the election. He said a lot of things
Bill Curtis: that I think are points that we should pay attention
Bill Curtis: to because we can basically predict the future. He quoted
Bill Curtis: election interference by big media big money and big tech.
Bill Curtis: I thought that was pretty telling of who he's going
Bill Curtis: to state is the cause of a loss that he
Bill Curtis: won't accept as a loss.
Norm Ornstein: You know I've followed very carefully what his niece Mary
Norm Ornstein: Trump has said. She's trained in psychology. She knows him
Norm Ornstein: and she said that he's never had a defeat like
Norm Ornstein: this before even in the past where he had defeats
Norm Ornstein: the bankruptcies and the like. He's figured out ways to
Norm Ornstein: get work arounds. You know I also he's issued a
Norm Ornstein: bunch of executive orders already that are troubling and questionable.
Norm Ornstein: One of course just this last week he opened up
Norm Ornstein: the entire Tongass National Forest in Alaska to logging even
Norm Ornstein: if that's undone down the road there'll be plenty of
Norm Ornstein: logging done in between. The most troubling one is he's
Norm Ornstein: issued an executive order that basically blows up the career
Norm Ornstein: civil service and its protections. He created a new category
Norm Ornstein: called Schedule F can you explain to our listeners a
Norm Ornstein: schedule f.. So we have different schedules in the government
Norm Ornstein: service schedule C is political appointees. The president picks. They
Norm Ornstein: don't have the civil service protection there. Those that he
Norm Ornstein: has in place. But most of the people working in
Norm Ornstein: the federal government like say Anthony fleshy are career people
Norm Ornstein: on a different schedule with protections from being harassed or fired.
Norm Ornstein: They have legal outlets. A president can't fire an Anthony voce.
Norm Ornstein: The only one who could get rid of him is
Norm Ornstein: the head of NIH Francis Collins. By doing this executive
Norm Ornstein: order he's saying that I can take people in senior
Norm Ornstein: levels in government who have been there for decades who
Norm Ornstein: are career move them into this new area where they
Norm Ornstein: have no protection. And under this executive order he can
Norm Ornstein: fire them and they have no appeals. And I'm expecting
Norm Ornstein: that Trump is going to go after those who he
Norm Ornstein: is viewed have hurt him and wronged him. A lot
Norm Ornstein: of people at the CDC a lot of people in
Norm Ornstein: the intelligence community some of the career people at the
Norm Ornstein: FDA and that'll be disruption for a period of time
Norm Ornstein: and who knows what other executive actions he'll take or
Norm Ornstein: foreign policy actions to try and make it more difficult
Norm Ornstein: for example for Biden to reenter the Iran nuclear deal
Norm Ornstein: or tried to make sure that there are more environmental
Norm Ornstein: steps taken that would be very hard to reverse so
Norm Ornstein: that he won't be able to move on climate change
Norm Ornstein: quite as effectively. There's just all kinds of things that
Norm Ornstein: he can do that are just lashing out.
Jane Albrecht: I think one thing to add to what you just
Jane Albrecht: said Norm is that it's not just him that will
Jane Albrecht: do these things to try to make it difficult for
Jane Albrecht: the next administration. He has really been back from the
Jane Albrecht: start by the extreme right wing of the Republican Party
Jane Albrecht: the group that believes all government is bad. That's why
Jane Albrecht: Steve Bannon wanted to quote deconstruct the administrative state so
Jane Albrecht: it's not just Trump that will do it it's going
Jane Albrecht: to be all the right wing that wants to get
Jane Albrecht: as much of the their agenda in place for as
Jane Albrecht: long as they can keep it in place. Wouldn't you agree. No.
Norm Ornstein: No I think that's absolutely right. And in many ways
Norm Ornstein: the most disturbing thing that I saw in the aftermath
Norm Ornstein: of the election was Lindsey Graham still the chairman of
Norm Ornstein: the Senate Judiciary Committee after having won re election going
Norm Ornstein: on Fox and other places and basically encouraging disruption of
Norm Ornstein: the election and delegitimization of the potential Biden victory if
Norm Ornstein: that's what we're getting at this point from Republicans in
Norm Ornstein: Congress continuing to enable bad behavior instead of trying to
Norm Ornstein: put limits around it. I despair.
Ed Larson: We've had a few Republicans speak out such as Mitt Romney.
Ed Larson: We need more right now. We have people like Lamar
Ed Larson: Alexander who have a free pass. They can speak out
Ed Larson: their outgoing senators. But Ben Sasse has said a few
Ed Larson: things that are positive. A few of the members of Republican
Ed Larson: members of Congress certainly people like former leaders like James
Ed Larson: Baker at some point. I think George W. Bush needs
Ed Larson: to speak out clearly and unequivocally. I think the important
Ed Larson: voices we need to hear are Republicans calling for a
Ed Larson: smooth honorable rule of law. Transition of Power.
Bill Curtis: Norm I'm wondering why there wasn't more backlash when before
Bill Curtis: the election. Trump said it was a fair election, If
Bill Curtis: I win. And the commentary and backlash no slaps on
Bill Curtis: the wrist it seems that it was simply accepted as
Bill Curtis: another day.
Norm Ornstein: You know what we have is a cult. It's not
Norm Ornstein: a party anymore. And with a cult the fear of
Norm Ornstein: being shunned or excommunicated is powerful because so many Republicans
Norm Ornstein: in the rank and file out in the country still
Norm Ornstein: believe that Donald Trump is the most fantastic thing that's
Norm Ornstein: ever happened to them taking him on means that you
Norm Ornstein: are an apostate. I'm afraid that's the world we live
Norm Ornstein: in and the only way I see a Mitch McConnell
Norm Ornstein: trying to stage an intervention with Donald Trump is if
Norm Ornstein: they believe that their future majority is in jeopardy because
Norm Ornstein: of the things that he's doing. I'll give you just
Norm Ornstein: one example here McConnell now predictably is going to want
Norm Ornstein: to do a complete 180 on a covert recovery package
Norm Ornstein: which he opposed until after the inauguration. Basically you know
Norm Ornstein: the House passed a package months ago. They did nothing
Norm Ornstein: when Trump talked about doing a huge package before the
Norm Ornstein: election McConnell threw cold water on it. Now he'll want
Norm Ornstein: to do a package for two reasons. One is he'd
Norm Ornstein: rather have it take place when Trump is president so
Norm Ornstein: that Biden doesn't get credit for it. The second is
Norm Ornstein: to give him an excuse for not doing an ambitious package.
Norm Ornstein: When Biden is president by saying we've already done that
Norm Ornstein: and he'll try and get something done and water it
Norm Ornstein: down in some ways it wouldn't surprise me that Trump
Norm Ornstein: now says Screw that. They all voted against me. Why
Norm Ornstein: should I do anything for them. And then you could
Norm Ornstein: see McConnell going to him and saying no you're not
Norm Ornstein: going to let that happen because it's bad for you
Norm Ornstein: but it's even worse for us.
Bill Curtis: You know Norm this being a show called Meet Me
Bill Curtis: in the middle we have a lot of friends that
Bill Curtis: are fiscal conservatives and social issue Democrats who actually have
Bill Curtis: been somewhat excited at the idea that Biden would win
Bill Curtis: the presidency but the Senate would prevent some radical taxes
Bill Curtis: that they're concerned with. So they feel like they're getting
Bill Curtis: the best of all worlds. I'm wondering if you feel
Bill Curtis: that perhaps that's a reasonable thing for someone like that
Bill Curtis: to say
Norm Ornstein: If your greatest concern is not getting the tax increase
Norm Ornstein: that Biden has put out there which includes of course
Norm Ornstein: raising the top rate and raising the corporate rate if
Norm Ornstein: that's the main thing on your agenda then you're going
Norm Ornstein: to want a Republican Senate. If you're a fiscal conservative
Norm Ornstein: however that doesn't really compute. You know we have seen
Norm Ornstein: no signs of fiscal conservatism over the last four years.
Norm Ornstein: What we've seen is a debt that's grown astronomically some
Norm Ornstein: of that obviously necessary as we fell into this deep
Norm Ornstein: morass because of it and some of it less destructive
Norm Ornstein: because of low interest rates. We're gonna see yet another
Norm Ornstein: package at least one and the one thing that could
Norm Ornstein: happen with a divided government is infrastructure. I joked for
Norm Ornstein: a long time we're in week two hundred of infrastructure
Norm Ornstein: week that Trump proclaimed right at the beginning. But for
Norm Ornstein: reasons that escape me you didn't do anything to move
Norm Ornstein: on an infrastructure package. And if there's one thing that
Norm Ornstein: could really move us once we're past the worst of
Norm Ornstein: covered to some strong economic recovery it's getting those good
Norm Ornstein: jobs that come with construction with you know pushing for
Norm Ornstein: universal broadband getting jobs and the green energy world. Which
Norm Ornstein: Republicans won't like that much but it would really provide
Norm Ornstein: some real help. This is the time to do it
Norm Ornstein: when interest rates are low but it's going to add
Norm Ornstein: astronomically to the debt. And unless you address the revenue
Norm Ornstein: side at some point that will get much worse.
Bill Curtis: Well you know what normally tends to not be addressed enough.
Bill Curtis: And I know a lot of fiscal conservatives who are
Bill Curtis: not completely opposed to paying some additional taxes but what
Bill Curtis: they're not hearing is anything about smarter spending creating more priorities.
Bill Curtis: A lot of these folks wouldn't be against the idea
Bill Curtis: even of a of a universal health care. If they
Bill Curtis: thought that it was a thorough policy that involved perhaps
Bill Curtis: spending a little less in some directions rather than just
Bill Curtis: charging more to the taxpayer.
Norm Ornstein: You know I will say Bill that I think the
Norm Ornstein: real challenge we have on that front is you've got
Norm Ornstein: a few buckets in the federal budget. You have the
Norm Ornstein: discretionary domestic spending bucket. You have the discretionary defense bucket
Norm Ornstein: and then you have the bucket of what is loosely
Norm Ornstein: called entitlement spending. But that is basically Social Security Medicare
Norm Ornstein: and Medicaid. And the reality is that on the discretionary
Norm Ornstein: domestic front that's been cut back dramatically in terms of
Norm Ornstein: its growth as a share of the GDP we're back
Norm Ornstein: to where it was before the 1960s. The other challenge
Norm Ornstein: of course is what you do about Social Security Medicare
Norm Ornstein: and Medicaid. One of the things that we've seen is
Norm Ornstein: that in the states that accepted the expansion of Medicaid
Norm Ornstein: in the aftermath of the Affordable Care Act their healthcare
Norm Ornstein: costs have actually gone way down and their rural hospitals
Norm Ornstein: have been able to stay open. And then the states
Norm Ornstein: that didn't accept the Medicaid expansion the burden on the
Norm Ornstein: states has grown dramatically. The other part of this is
Norm Ornstein: in the aftermath of covered all of the states that
Norm Ornstein: have their own balanced budget requirements are deeply in the
Norm Ornstein: red and are going to need some help. You know
Norm Ornstein: we can begin to talk yet again a little bit
Norm Ornstein: further down the road about how we get the trade
Norm Ornstein: off that we've had out there as the strongest possibility
Norm Ornstein: since 2009 if not before which is you look in
Norm Ornstein: a smart way at Social Security and Medicare then ad revenues.
Norm Ornstein: I have sympathy for people who are fiscally conservative and
Norm Ornstein: socially moderate or liberal. It's hard to find a place
Norm Ornstein: in the political system now where you feel those concerns
Norm Ornstein: being felt but those are ones that are going to
Norm Ornstein: have to wait awhile and remember on the socially moderate
Norm Ornstein: side we have a Supreme Court that is likely to
Norm Ornstein: take a whole set of actions that are going to
Norm Ornstein: leave people in that category extremely upset. And I'm not
Norm Ornstein: just talking about choice. One of the cases the Supreme
Norm Ornstein: Court's going to hear very soon. Is about adoption rights
Norm Ornstein: for L.B. Beatty couples and families. I wouldn't be surprised
Norm Ornstein: if they take a position that's not very favorable to
Norm Ornstein: those who are socially moderate or liberal. They could revisit
Norm Ornstein: gay marriage and they're certainly going to at least accept
Norm Ornstein: significant further restrictions on abortion.
Norm Ornstein: So we're going to see people who have that balance
Norm Ornstein: of views which is in many ways reflects a larger
Norm Ornstein: share of the population being disappointed on all fronts we're
Norm Ornstein: going to take a break.
Bill Curtis: We'll be right back with Norman Ornstein.
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Bill Curtis: Welcome back with Norman Ornstein.
Bill Curtis: You know it's been said already that Trump with his
Bill Curtis: 80 million Twitter followers and his seemingly lack of desire
Bill Curtis: to be known as a classy exiting president who might
Bill Curtis: have accomplished some things for people who wanted him to
Bill Curtis: fulfill his promise. But as he proceeds one of the
Bill Curtis: things that it's already been told that he's saying is
Bill Curtis: running again in four years as any other president. And
Bill Curtis: in our past been voted out of office and then
Bill Curtis: tried to run again.
Ed Larson: Yes the most famous example of course is Grover Cleveland.
Ed Larson: Not only did he run again but he won. He
Ed Larson: served one term won the popular vote the next time
Ed Larson: but lost the electoral vote and came back four years
Ed Larson: later and won. It's actually a fairly successful president. But
Ed Larson: there have been other examples of presidents who've tried. Teddy
Ed Larson: Roosevelt tried he tried to come back afterwards. Ulysses S.
Ed Larson: Grant thought about coming back and trying. So there had
Ed Larson: been other examples but certainly Grover Cleveland stands out as
Ed Larson: the successful one.
Jane Albrecht: When did this sort of tradition of presidents stepping down
Jane Albrecht: and not really speaking at all during their successor's term
Jane Albrecht: when did it start that there was the tradition of
Jane Albrecht: former presidents basically retiring and saying nothing that's more a
Jane Albrecht: personal attitude.
Ed Larson: People like Dwight Eisenhower just wanted to facilitate the next
Ed Larson: president and not get in the way. But there've been
Ed Larson: a lot of presidents over time who have remained involved
Ed Larson: and remain vocal. And of course even your example of
Ed Larson: Obama he's certainly been vocal in the last few weeks.
Ed Larson: So it's not necessarily a historical norm. Often presidents remain active.
Ed Larson: Another famous one would be John Tyler who not only
Ed Larson: remained active but he ended up becoming a senator in
Ed Larson: the Confederacy. And he was a former U.S. president. So
Ed Larson: he remained very vocal and active on the slavery issue.
Norm Ornstein: So you know it's been a norm that presidents have
Norm Ornstein: followed generally in part because of a belief that if
Norm Ornstein: while they served the former presidents had tried to undercut
Norm Ornstein: them it would have made their lives more difficult. Jimmy
Norm Ornstein: Carter hasn't particularly followed that and you know he's spoken
Norm Ornstein: out quite actively in ways that frustrated Democratic and Republican
Norm Ornstein: presidents at different times. But generally speaking the modern era
Norm Ornstein: is one where especially because presidents have had bigger bully
Norm Ornstein: pulpits and former presidents they've tended to try and stay
Norm Ornstein: out of current controversies. I think Donald Trump is going
Norm Ornstein: to form his own media network. I think he is
Norm Ornstein: going to create a hyper right wing populist network that
Norm Ornstein: will have television radio and social media. It will position
Norm Ornstein: itself to the populist right of Fox. He will probably
Norm Ornstein: bring over Stuart Varney Lou Dobbs. Mark Levin and some
Norm Ornstein: others you know if he gets backers and he will
Norm Ornstein: have backers you could buy any television network that has
Norm Ornstein: a broad reach on cable whether it's the weather channel
Norm Ornstein: or another more minor one or use ON and as
Norm Ornstein: it were or even join with our RT the Russian
Norm Ornstein: propaganda network you'll do rallies all the time assuming he
Norm Ornstein: does not get indicted and assuming you can find a
Norm Ornstein: way out of the huge morass of debt that he's in.
Norm Ornstein: I expect him to be a major presence.
Bill Curtis: When you look at a dysfunctional country where just short
Bill Curtis: of half the country just showed that they wanted four
Bill Curtis: more years of an arguably unbalanced and dangerous man because
Bill Curtis: of what he stood for not because of who he
Bill Curtis: is you know even conservatives admit that he is well
Bill Curtis: a bit odd. You have to talk about the dysfunction
Bill Curtis: in our country where there seems to be such an
Bill Curtis: overwhelming divide. The walls appear to be more between rural
Bill Curtis: and urban and suburban America than it is or should
Bill Curtis: be between countries.
Norm Ornstein: I couldn't agree more. I did find it very unsettling
Norm Ornstein: the level of support that he got after everything that
Norm Ornstein: he had said and done. And it does show that
Norm Ornstein: we have this tribal world and you're absolutely right Bill
Norm Ornstein: that we have deep blue states and deep red states
Norm Ornstein: and we have those purple states. But the fact is
Norm Ornstein: within each of those states we have a huge divide.
Norm Ornstein: The reality is that the economic dynamism of the country
Norm Ornstein: is centered in metropolitan areas where you have the infrastructure
Norm Ornstein: the educational infrastructure the workforce educational infrastructure the communications and
Norm Ornstein: transportation infrastructures. People who are supple and can deal with
Norm Ornstein: the vicissitudes of a global economy two thirds of the
Norm Ornstein: GDP come from those areas. And then as you move
Norm Ornstein: out from the cities and the inner suburbs into the
Norm Ornstein: outer suburbs into the Xers and then to the smaller
Norm Ornstein: towns you find this divide growing. And it's an economic
Norm Ornstein: divide and a social divide and a political divide and
Norm Ornstein: then let me throw in another structural challenge that we
Norm Ornstein: have because people are moving to the states where there
Norm Ornstein: is that economic dynamism. By 2040 70 percent of Americans
Norm Ornstein: will live in just 15 of our 50 states. That
Norm Ornstein: means that 30 percent of Americans will elect 70 senators
Norm Ornstein: and they are not representative of the diversity of the
Norm Ornstein: country much less the economic dynamism.
Jane Albrecht: Do you really think after Trump is out of office
Jane Albrecht: that the attorney general of New York and Manhattan are
Jane Albrecht: going to have the political will to go after him
Jane Albrecht: in a serious concerted way.
Norm Ornstein: Remember they're from New York. Jane, if you're Cy Vance
Norm Ornstein: the D.A. in New York and you let Donald Trump
Norm Ornstein: off the hook in New York you're in big trouble.
Norm Ornstein: So their inclination is going to be to go forward.
Norm Ornstein: And if I had to guess my guess is they've
Norm Ornstein: got a whole lot of evidence of tax fraud. Keep
Norm Ornstein: in mind that it was fraud of just this sort
Norm Ornstein: inflating your real estate properties to get loans and then
Norm Ornstein: deflating them to get losses on your tax returns. That
Norm Ornstein: sent Leona Helmsley to prison for 18 months
Ed Larson: And going after the president if he's in legal trouble
Ed Larson: in New York. Well in a way help corral him
Ed Larson: a bit as to those other prosecutions though most of
Ed Larson: those are federal. And you know Trump's got a month
Ed Larson: and a half left to pardon those people pardon his
Ed Larson: cabinet members to avoid those Hatch Act or insider trading
Ed Larson: issues as long as they're federal actions against him.
Norm Ornstein: Donald Trump has been furious with his attorney general Bill
Norm Ornstein: Barr for not going after Hunter Biden and Hillary Clinton.
Norm Ornstein: He's been furious with his FBI director for not following
Norm Ornstein: what he believes is all of this evidence that Rudy
Norm Ornstein: Giuliani has uncovered about perfidy. I can also imagine during
Norm Ornstein: the transition against the advice of everybody given his own
Norm Ornstein: self-interest trump finding prosecutors who will agree to in his
Norm Ornstein: final days do to his opponents including Obama what they
Norm Ornstein: did to him when he was asked about the transition
Norm Ornstein: said Why should I give them a good transition when
Norm Ornstein: look at the witch hunt that they brought against me.
Norm Ornstein: If that's what Trump does I'm not sure we're going
Norm Ornstein: to see the same kind of forbearance on the other side.
Bill Curtis: He doesn't care how things look. So we have to
Bill Curtis: keep that in mind.
Jane Albrecht: I think the trick is you know with Biden how
Jane Albrecht: much political energy is Biden going to want his administration
Jane Albrecht: to put into going after former political enemies. It looks bad.
Norm Ornstein: You know I don't think he would do it directly.
Norm Ornstein: The best way in which you would do that is
Norm Ornstein: you would pick a Preet Bharara to go back to
Norm Ornstein: the Southern District of New York and you would pick
Norm Ornstein: a career person in the Public Integrity Section of the
Norm Ornstein: Justice Department has had no history of any partisan involvement
Norm Ornstein: and basically say you guys follow the evidence where it
Norm Ornstein: takes you we are going to stay out of it completely.
Norm Ornstein: My attorney general will not intervene in the slightest way
Norm Ornstein: with any investigations. The Southern District has a reputation for
Norm Ornstein: complete integrity and we're staying out of it. That's the
Norm Ornstein: way to deal with this.
Ed Larson: Your suggestion on the North Carolina senator is perfect because
Ed Larson: there you have something to hold over his head and
Ed Larson: that's just the sort of dealing you have and then
Ed Larson: you look around in other states that are similarly situated.
Ed Larson: Those could be key to bringing together the country. And
Ed Larson: that's what I think Biden is going to be committed
Ed Larson: to doing because that's I believe he thinks will be
Ed Larson: his legacy and even more important. He's always been religious
Ed Larson: but he became so deeply religious with what's happened with
Ed Larson: his family and his and himself and his own illnesses.
Ed Larson: And I believe he believes that he is called by
Ed Larson: God to save this country and to restore the soul
Ed Larson: of American and those people who say he's going to
Ed Larson: be run by that by AOC and the left.
Ed Larson: I just don't think they understand Joe Biden
Jane Albrecht: Having said that I should add you know I think
Jane Albrecht: you can bring Republicans in in certain specific ways in
Jane Albrecht: any appointments. But I think this is not a time
Jane Albrecht: for a cabinet of a team of rivals if nothing else.
Jane Albrecht: The Democratic base and by that I'm not just talking
Jane Albrecht: about the progressive base I'm talking about the entire Democratic
Jane Albrecht: base is very much going to want to get a feel.
Jane Albrecht: We've put up with this for a long time. It's
Jane Albrecht: time to have Democrats rule the country so I think
Jane Albrecht: we'll have room to do some of that but not
Jane Albrecht: too much of it and not in key positions.
Bill Curtis: And you know what Jane though being that we're Meet
Bill Curtis: me in the middle before we wrap up I'd have
Bill Curtis: to say if it goes the route that's outlined by
Bill Curtis: Norm the country is better off. Norm I have two
Bill Curtis: questions for you. Before we run one that was suggested
Bill Curtis: by Jane following and Chris Hayes footsteps you travel in
Bill Curtis: areas in Washington that many of us could only wish
Bill Curtis: or dread the idea of travelling in you know people
Bill Curtis: they talk to you tell us something we don't know.
Norm Ornstein: I've known Joe Biden since he first came to the
Norm Ornstein: Senate in 1973 and I had my own personal tragedy.
Norm Ornstein: I lost a son in January of 2015. Joe called
Norm Ornstein: me up two days later spent an hour on the
Norm Ornstein: phone from his office and the vice presidency with me
Norm Ornstein: and my wife and my other son gave me his
Norm Ornstein: private phone number followed with a handwritten letter and I
Norm Ornstein: saw him at a White House Hanukkah party. He came
Norm Ornstein: over made a beeline over to the two of us
Norm Ornstein: gave us hugs and whispered in my ear I know
Norm Ornstein: the holidays are a really rough time. There is nothing
Norm Ornstein: that's more intrinsic to Joe Biden's character than the empathy
Norm Ornstein: that he has for others. So you know that. But
Norm Ornstein: I know what at a personal level. The second thing
Norm Ornstein: I'll tell you is that the team of people around
Norm Ornstein: Biden including those running the transition are as capable and
Norm Ornstein: tough minded as any I've ever seen. That starts with
Norm Ornstein: Ted Kaufman who succeeded him in the Senate who wrote
Norm Ornstein: the Presidential Transition Act and who is handling the transition.
Norm Ornstein: And are I think going to be ready to go
Norm Ornstein: in a way that Obama wasn't that Trump certainly wasn't.
Norm Ornstein: Which is not just to have a cabinet lined up
Norm Ornstein: to be confirmed right after inauguration but a large slew
Norm Ornstein: of the subcabinet. It's a critical thing that most presidents
Norm Ornstein: don't do and have not done. What I will tell
Norm Ornstein: you finally is the Republicans I've talked to in Congress
Norm Ornstein: large numbers of them have contempt for Trump. They see
Norm Ornstein: him for what he is but not one of them
Norm Ornstein: has used that in any public fashion.
Bill Curtis: First of all our hearts go out to you and
Bill Curtis: your wife for your loss and we hope you'll come
Bill Curtis: back and talk to us again because this has been
Bill Curtis: an absolute honor to have you join us. So Norm
Bill Curtis: how can people follow you.
Norm Ornstein: I'm very active on Twitter. That's one way it's at
Norm Ornstein: @normornstein .
Bill Curtis: OK Ed Larson and Jane Albrecht thank you so much
Bill Curtis: for being with us tonight. This has been spectacular. Until
Bill Curtis: next week don't forget to hit the subscribe button so
Bill Curtis: you don't have to hunt around and find meet me
Bill Curtis: in the middle for next week. Thank you to our
Bill Curtis: producer A.J. Moseley, music for Meet me in the middle
Bill Curtis: is composed and performed by Celleste and Eric Dick the
Bill Curtis: executive producer for this episode is Stuart Halperin . Trump is
Bill Curtis: not going to go quietly but we as a society
Bill Curtis: can decide to come together. And when you listen to
Bill Curtis: some of the ideas that Norm laid out tonight you
Bill Curtis: realize that we do have choices.
Bill Curtis: We do have ways that we can come together. We
Bill Curtis: do have ways to have a better future. See you
Bill Curtis: next week everything.
Announcer: From CurtCo Media. Media for your mind.