Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're
Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military news and straight
Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community. Hello, good everyone,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Software Radio, Software Radio on Time, on Target.
Speaker 1: I'm your host today, Steve Balstori joining us today is
Speaker 1: we have a great guest already on the line with us,
Speaker 1: being West. He's been a prolific author. He was a
Speaker 1: Marine Corps veteran. Uh, he fought in Vietnam and then
Speaker 1: he's written a slew of books about combat, mostly about
Speaker 1: the Marines. We gotta get him on to the special
Speaker 1: operators to the Army on this but uh, but yeah,
Speaker 1: we want to welcome him to the podcast. Bing has
Speaker 1: been Like I said, he grew up around Marines. He
Speaker 1: was a Marine, his son was a Marine. I think
Speaker 1: both of them served in Force Recon. But we'll ask
Speaker 1: him that as soon as uh we get him on
Speaker 1: the line here. So being welcome, sir, we want to
Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time to join us this
Speaker 1: afternoon because we want to discuss your newest book that
Speaker 1: was just released I believe today, the Last Platoon. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you, Steve. Yeah, glad to be here. MM hmm,
Speaker 1: it's our pleasure. It's our pleasure and totally here. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you growing up in Georgia to Massachusetts. I read your bio,
Speaker 1: so of course I was like, well, we have to
Speaker 1: get him on now in the podcast because the fellow
Speaker 1: Red Sox fan. So uh. But I one of the
Speaker 1: things that I saw in your bio was, um, I
Speaker 1: guess probably when you were about six or seven years old. Um,
Speaker 1: your dad had a lot of local baseball team full
Speaker 1: of you know, marine corvettes, to use your homes attic
Speaker 1: as a clubhouse. So you got you know, you get
Speaker 1: bitten by the bug at a very early age, didn't you. Well,
Speaker 1: it was really a little bit earlier when just I
Speaker 1: was too when the war began and my mom her
Speaker 1: brothers were all members of a baseball team and they
Speaker 1: used the upstairs of our house, as you indicator, as
Speaker 1: the clubhouse. So they went off to Guanda Canal. The
Speaker 1: Marines won't do that anymore, but they allowed the entire
Speaker 1: baseball team to go off together, and they stopped doing
Speaker 1: that because so many of them were killed out of
Speaker 1: the same groups. But when they would come home from
Speaker 1: the islands, they didn't know how to talk to their
Speaker 1: parents about what they've been doing. They're only eighteen nineteen
Speaker 1: year olds. So they'd all come to the clubhouse and
Speaker 1: my mother set me up there whe where they were
Speaker 1: brothers because she thought, well, they're gonn build in babysitters.
Speaker 1: We they weren't going to stay around the house. So
Speaker 1: from from two to ninety seven, I was basically raised
Speaker 1: by the Marines because we had six other kids in
Speaker 1: our family. But the Marines will sneak down the backstairs.
Speaker 1: They put a banking around me and tell me to shush,
Speaker 1: and we get down. The next thing I know, I'd
Speaker 1: be sitting on a bar stool or sitting on the
Speaker 1: bar while they're all drinking, you know, so talk about
Speaker 1: being you know, hit with the bug in both uncle's
Speaker 1: platoon commanders in the infantry on Okinawa, and my mother
Speaker 1: is scared to death that her two brothers are going
Speaker 1: to be killed. And she said, you have to do
Speaker 1: something for the war effort. So I had this blanket
Speaker 1: I loved, and she said with that, I threw it
Speaker 1: out the window and I said, that's for the dirty
Speaker 1: yellow baskets. And she said at that point she thought
Speaker 1: something was happening up in that clubhouse that shouldn't be happening.
Speaker 1: Donators to say. You know when I when I got
Speaker 1: out of college, I enlisted and became a Marine and
Speaker 1: went to Vietnam, and uh fuck, it was just inevitable.
Speaker 1: I was going to do it right. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it's funny because you talk about the Marines back in
Speaker 1: the Second World War with so many of the guys
Speaker 1: going off to fight back then, and that's a big
Speaker 1: difference between I think what's happening today what happened in
Speaker 1: World War Two obviously much larger scale. But you know,
Speaker 1: those guys all were very humble. They when they came home,
Speaker 1: they didn't want to make a big deal out of themselves.
Speaker 1: So you know, they didn't really know how to talk
Speaker 1: to anybody about their experiences other than themselves. I know
Speaker 1: my father was the same way. He fought in World
Speaker 1: War Two in Europe. Uh, and he was in armor
Speaker 1: and he fought the Germans, and he would never talk
Speaker 1: about it. And unless some of his army buds who
Speaker 1: grew up around with them, that served with them, they
Speaker 1: would come over our house maybe once or twice a
Speaker 1: year during the summer, and then they'd get off on
Speaker 1: their own and talk about it. And I think that's
Speaker 1: it's a very common thing for that generation, wasn't it. Well,
Speaker 1: it was, and I think for for a good reason.
Speaker 1: I mean, we now pictures like saving Private Ryan, so
Speaker 1: gradually we we understood that was a total war. And
Speaker 1: when they were out there, that was with the killing fields,
Speaker 1: especially for the infantry. And yet when they came home,
Speaker 1: they were still part of a united nation. You know,
Speaker 1: we weren't separated as a nation. So I can understand
Speaker 1: why they didn't want to come back and sort of say,
Speaker 1: holy smokes, what I had to do on o jam
Speaker 1: are normandy? You know, they and they didn't have I mean,
Speaker 1: the other interesting thing is today we would say every
Speaker 1: one of those guys had post traumatic stress. I mean,
Speaker 1: of course they did, but you know, they had loving
Speaker 1: families to come back to the nation was happy that
Speaker 1: the war was over and they had wanted and I
Speaker 1: think that helped them all get over it. But wow,
Speaker 1: they saw much more combat I think, at least equal
Speaker 1: to what I saw in Vietnam and to what what
Speaker 1: you know, the younger generations are in Afghanistan and and Iraq. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's a good point. I mean, but you know,
Speaker 1: even as yourself. You let a hundred combat patrols during
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War beat and that was kind of during
Speaker 1: the peak between sixties six and nine, which I'm assuming
Speaker 1: you were there during had offensive. But you know, I
Speaker 1: think you and I and all the listen, there's no
Speaker 1: all the same thing. I mean, you get on battlefields,
Speaker 1: it is plain luck that you come back and somebody
Speaker 1: else doesn't, or that you still have your legs and
Speaker 1: the next guy doesn't. We all know that. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's not any special skill. I mean, you your heads
Speaker 1: on a swivel, you try to do everything right, but
Speaker 1: you know it's just a coin flip. And I was
Speaker 1: just playing lucky. My biggest my fourth recon uh squad,
Speaker 1: well we only had five of us. I can't imagine
Speaker 1: they did this. They sent us into the dmz IS
Speaker 1: at sixties six, into the demilitarized zone because we had
Speaker 1: a North Vietnamese division attacking us along the northern border
Speaker 1: South Vietnam, and they want to know what was going on,
Speaker 1: what was going on? Holy smokes, By the third day,
Speaker 1: we were so deep in there, we were saying no
Speaker 1: viets everywhere, and we made the mistake of calling in
Speaker 1: some Marty and then they found out we were there
Speaker 1: and they came after us, and and we had no
Speaker 1: way out. I thought, oh jeez. And I was on
Speaker 1: the phone on the PSC you know, screaming for any station,
Speaker 1: any help, and this tiny little little look like a
Speaker 1: piper cub comes overhead and this guy says on the FM,
Speaker 1: he said, get your heads down, and with that he
Speaker 1: fires two dinky little rockets. And I thought, God, there
Speaker 1: at least a hundred of them coming up that damn
Speaker 1: hill and he firs two rockets. That was the last
Speaker 1: thing I remember. For about ten minutes. There was an
Speaker 1: f a going up north to hit a bridge up
Speaker 1: in Hannoy and instead this this a bird dog called
Speaker 1: to him and said that put that those guys that
Speaker 1: scours recoing gang, they're going under. You have to drop
Speaker 1: on them. And he dropped to two thousand pound bombs.
Speaker 1: And oh that was it. I mean, we when we
Speaker 1: came to and I got on the on the radio
Speaker 1: and I said, you son of a bit, you dropped
Speaker 1: on us, dropped on us. And he was up there
Speaker 1: circling around the pilot Orson Swindle was his name above
Speaker 1: the fact, and he said over over the freak. He
Speaker 1: heard that come through and he said, those are the
Speaker 1: most wonderful words he ever heard, because he said he
Speaker 1: killed us and that was the end of the North
Speaker 1: Fiaes for a while, and and we were able to
Speaker 1: get out of there the next day. So, you know,
Speaker 1: you run into those kinds of things and you you're
Speaker 1: just you're fortunate that you make it out right. I
Speaker 1: was talking about a week ago with one of the
Speaker 1: guys who were involved in Max Sog and uh I
Speaker 1: remember when I was a young buck going through the
Speaker 1: Special Forces. Of course, we had one of those guys,
Speaker 1: you know, with a lot of combat experience during that time,
Speaker 1: doing the same kind of thing you're talking about. He
Speaker 1: came and spoke to our class and and he was saying, yes,
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, you get dropped in and you don't
Speaker 1: realize it, but you're right in the middle of a
Speaker 1: lot of North vietnamme and you're just running for your life.
Speaker 1: And one of the kids said, how close were they?
Speaker 1: And he said, well, one of those little uh I
Speaker 1: forget what he called how he turned. One of those
Speaker 1: little guys threw a hand grenade at us and it
Speaker 1: hit me in the back of the head. As I
Speaker 1: was running down the trail and uh, he said. Then
Speaker 1: it bounced off and went from there. And then the
Speaker 1: guy said did it explode? And he was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it killed me, don't you know. Yeah, that was a
Speaker 1: brilliant question. Sog Wow. I mean those guys and when
Speaker 1: they were in the special camps where they had the Montyons,
Speaker 1: et cetera, up up on the hills, I mean, they
Speaker 1: really took took a beating, especially in sixty eight. By
Speaker 1: sixty nine we began to get things under control, but
Speaker 1: sixty seven and sixty eight they were getting looped. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: which brings us to you know, at the end of
Speaker 1: your combat tour, the Marines assigned you to Right Small
Speaker 1: Unit Action in Vietnam, which is like a It was
Speaker 1: pretty much a guide for units coming in and fighting
Speaker 1: in the country. And then you also wrote The Village
Speaker 1: about the combat action platoons who lived with the Vietnamese locals. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you guys saw a lot of combat because you were
Speaker 1: kind of on the tip of the spear out there,
Speaker 1: and that that kind of set you. I guess your
Speaker 1: your next career was writing, I mean writing books and
Speaker 1: and going on from there. How successful do you believe
Speaker 1: that that first book, Small Action Unit in Vietnam was
Speaker 1: for for troops coming in. Do you think it was?
Speaker 1: It was very worthwhile. It was something, you know, lessons learned.
Speaker 1: Where these guys were taking those uh um words the heart. Well,
Speaker 1: I a hundred thousand copies of it were circulated inside
Speaker 1: not only the Marines but also the army because it
Speaker 1: gave the the E fives and the E six is
Speaker 1: and uh the old ones and oh two is going
Speaker 1: over a sense for what it was going to be
Speaker 1: like in a platoon and what they had to watch
Speaker 1: out for. And I tried to put in all the
Speaker 1: different different kinds of combat that the Marines have sent
Speaker 1: me in, so they had different than nyettes. And I
Speaker 1: kept every vignette separate from the other one and just
Speaker 1: indicated this is how it is. So I hope it
Speaker 1: did help someone well, which will bring I know that
Speaker 1: you spent a lot of time with the Marines in
Speaker 1: Iraq and Afghanistan. I think you've been over there about
Speaker 1: thirty or forty times, and uh yeah, so, I mean
Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time with the troops in
Speaker 1: the field. Obviously you weren't spending time in kabbal so
Speaker 1: which brings us to your last book. I know you've
Speaker 1: written quite a few about, you know, the wars in
Speaker 1: Iraq and Afghanistan, but I wanted to talk to you
Speaker 1: about your latest book, The Last Platoon, because what I
Speaker 1: thought the fascinating part of it is is you're dealing
Speaker 1: with a very small unit uh uh security platoon that's
Speaker 1: being tapped to do a special mission. You're getting their perspective.
Speaker 1: They're attached with some CIA guys who are you know,
Speaker 1: their special activities guys. You're getting their perspective. And you also,
Speaker 1: you know this is written as a novel, You're you're
Speaker 1: getting the perspective of the Taliban guys that they're going against.
Speaker 1: And you know, for a lot of our I say,
Speaker 1: countrymen here in the States, they have a hard time
Speaker 1: understanding the mindset of the Taliban, and I think that's
Speaker 1: what this book right here, well, I think it opens
Speaker 1: a lot of eyes because if you haven't been there,
Speaker 1: you're not familiar what you're going on. They're quite different
Speaker 1: than and they have a different mindset than the people
Speaker 1: here in the West. Well, thank you, Steve, That's what
Speaker 1: I was trying to do. Um, I have been over
Speaker 1: there for so long, so many years, and I you know,
Speaker 1: I get along well with with a lot of the generals,
Speaker 1: not all of them, some of them really just like me.
Speaker 1: But I couldn't. I couldn't understand what we were doing.
Speaker 1: I really could not, because Afghanistan is a set of
Speaker 1: tribes that are hurdling headlong into the ninth century. I mean,
Speaker 1: they haven't made it to the tenth century yet. And
Speaker 1: and and we were sent over there to to nation
Speaker 1: build and make democrats and republicans out of them. I
Speaker 1: our troops. I never understood what we were doing out there.
Speaker 1: And um, the general has got very annoyed with me.
Speaker 1: But I was getting annoyed with them because I kept saying,
Speaker 1: I don't know what you think we're doing out most
Speaker 1: you walk around until you get into a fight with
Speaker 1: the Taliban, and you think you're making progress. So I
Speaker 1: tried in this book to take twenty years and put
Speaker 1: it into into one one story of what happened to
Speaker 1: one platoon, and also put in when I knew about
Speaker 1: the Taliban and how they were thinking and why they
Speaker 1: were fighting, and linked them back to the guys who
Speaker 1: were in charge of them in Pakistan, because they have
Speaker 1: their own chain of command and they're safe in Pakistan.
Speaker 1: And then I linked this platoon all the way back
Speaker 1: to the President and Secretary of Defense in Washington to
Speaker 1: try to show people that at the top they didn't know.
Speaker 1: The White House had no humility, and whether it be
Speaker 1: under Republican a Democrat, they didn't really know what was
Speaker 1: going on out there. And the year after year doing
Speaker 1: this it was like banging your head against cement. So
Speaker 1: I tried. I tried in the book to show what
Speaker 1: the war looked like, what it really was from different
Speaker 1: points of view, the enemy as well as US. I
Speaker 1: think that's a great point and that comes clear as
Speaker 1: a belt through in the book, because you know, you're
Speaker 1: talking about the Taliban, the the the one individual leader
Speaker 1: you know in this small area that you're talking about,
Speaker 1: his name is Zook. Yeah, but he had someone the
Speaker 1: answer to just like you know, the the Americans do.
Speaker 1: And you know, both of them are being lead from well,
Speaker 1: in the Americans case, like six seven thousand miles away,
Speaker 1: and the people in Washington have no concept on what's
Speaker 1: going on, you know, really on the ground in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: They're trying to you know, they're trying to micromanage a
Speaker 1: war from thousands of miles away, and it doesn't work.
Speaker 1: And he, I mean, his mindsets quite different than a marine,
Speaker 1: you know, officers is but this is our character. His
Speaker 1: strings are being pulled too well. And that's why I
Speaker 1: was trying to indicate. Tzar wanted to win. He wanted
Speaker 1: he wanted to keep his drugs. He wanted he wanted
Speaker 1: to become the emir and helmet. But he knew he
Speaker 1: couldn't stand up to the Marines and the CIA guys
Speaker 1: in a in an all out firefight. So he was
Speaker 1: doing the usual stuff, putting out the I E. D. S, etcetera.
Speaker 1: But these guys were getting whacked and and his chain
Speaker 1: of command didn't want to hear that, and he didn't
Speaker 1: want to admit that he wasn't up to the task.
Speaker 1: So he was kind of resisting and looking for a
Speaker 1: way out, and they finally had to send in which
Speaker 1: I don't want to give away the book, but the
Speaker 1: top finally sent in some others to try to help
Speaker 1: him out. But he was he wasn't quite telling the
Speaker 1: truth at all to his chain of command. And and
Speaker 1: in our side, I think we have such a can
Speaker 1: do attitude beginning with the corporal and going all the
Speaker 1: way up the chain of command. It's very difficult to
Speaker 1: give a special Forces group or an O D A
Speaker 1: group are are, you know, the tenth Mountain or the
Speaker 1: first Marine Division or something an assignment and have them
Speaker 1: come back and say, we're not really getting it done.
Speaker 1: So by the time you get up the chain of command,
Speaker 1: it becomes so fuzzy that it infuriated me because no
Speaker 1: one was asking the real hard question. Now, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: if we're doing so well, why have we been doing
Speaker 1: it for twenty years without making any progress? So in
Speaker 1: the book, I try to show how that happens from
Speaker 1: from all the angles. And that's why I called it
Speaker 1: the Lost Platoon, because this was the last platoon to
Speaker 1: try to do it. Excellent, We're going to continue with this,
Speaker 1: but first I have to read a quick note from
Speaker 1: one of our sponsors, and we're gonna get right back
Speaker 1: to it. Sure, Harry, everyone, well, it's no secrets and
Speaker 1: big tech companies are tracking and listening to everything we
Speaker 1: do these days. Did you know that active duty military
Speaker 1: and veterans are even more likely to be targeted by scams,
Speaker 1: predatory ads, and data thieves wondering how you can prevent
Speaker 1: them from tracking you and others from listening to your
Speaker 1: private conversations and manipulating your thoughts, your family's actions, or
Speaker 1: even your votes. Fight back with Winston Privacy and defend
Speaker 1: yourself against the enemies who will take advantage of your
Speaker 1: military service and steal your personal information for their illicit game.
Speaker 1: So fight back against big tech in spine. Get twenty
Speaker 1: dollars off today with our exclusive promo. Just go to
Speaker 1: Winston Privacy dot com, slash soft rep. That's Winston Privacy
Speaker 1: dot com backslash soft rep or used the cupon code
Speaker 1: soft rep. Alright, we're back to our podcast here and
Speaker 1: we're on the line with bing West and we're talking
Speaker 1: about his book The Last Flatoon. And and again I'm uh, sir.
Speaker 1: You you wrote about our strategy, the nation build among
Speaker 1: a literate tribes was foolish, and I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, there's a lot of misconceptions, and
Speaker 1: again you you talked about it. You know, the people
Speaker 1: from the Taliban, they they have no loyalty to a
Speaker 1: you know, a nationalist government at all, tribal and you
Speaker 1: know they're dealing with ninth century you know, I guess
Speaker 1: uh beliefs well you had. On the one hand, the Taliban,
Speaker 1: well treat things are happening. The first, the Taliban genuinely
Speaker 1: believe in their idea of the calisake and how terrible
Speaker 1: the West is and how they have to kill us,
Speaker 1: you know, but not as I mean. There are differences
Speaker 1: between them and the al Qaeda who brought down the
Speaker 1: you know, the Twin Towers, but not that big a
Speaker 1: difference there. They're they're true believers that radical Islam is
Speaker 1: the way to go. So that's the first thing that
Speaker 1: is in their heads. But the second thing that's there
Speaker 1: is that they're winning. And you and I both know
Speaker 1: if if you're winning on a battlefield, your morale goes
Speaker 1: up and the morale of the government forces goes down.
Speaker 1: And part of that is because most of the Taliban
Speaker 1: are Postumes and they live in the eastern part of Afghanistan,
Speaker 1: and most of the soldiers for the government who are
Speaker 1: down there fighting them, they're not postumes because the Postumes
Speaker 1: won't join with the government. They're Tajiks and many of
Speaker 1: them don't speak Posture and they're sent down to this area,
Speaker 1: so they the government forces aren't not out in the countryside.
Speaker 1: They're not the Taliban control of the countryside in eastern Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: And the third thing that people just not aware of
Speaker 1: the Helman Province and in Afghanistan overall ship out nine
Speaker 1: of the heroine that is consumed in in Europe and Russia.
Speaker 1: These many of these people are donned rich. Uh. These
Speaker 1: farmers are not poor. They're all growing poppy and we're
Speaker 1: out there so to saying work with the central government
Speaker 1: and you shouldn't be growing poppy. Hello. You know, as
Speaker 1: far as they were concerned, we're on the wrong side.
Speaker 1: So I try in the book to bring all that in.
Speaker 1: You know, their their their firm belief on the one hand,
Speaker 1: the enemy's firm belief and on the other hand the drugs,
Speaker 1: because that's a big part of it, and they're all
Speaker 1: part of it. All the farmers are part of it.
Speaker 1: One of the things we used to do. It was
Speaker 1: just pretty funny. You know, every place you'd go, you're
Speaker 1: out on patrol, and um, who are the Afghans with you? Well,
Speaker 1: there'd be a few Afghans with you, but they'd always
Speaker 1: give us an interpreter, a Turk who basically from the
Speaker 1: time he was about fourteen and fifteen on would um
Speaker 1: watch the soaps all day long, you know, the TV soaps,
Speaker 1: And and then he then he get a job as
Speaker 1: a turp and he'd be out with a platoon and
Speaker 1: you'll be walking along and the farmers will be yelling
Speaker 1: at you is we're going through the poppy fields, which
Speaker 1: are gorgeous when they're when they're in full bloom with
Speaker 1: the purple and the white, and the terp would always
Speaker 1: yell back, no, no, no, no, no no. And I said,
Speaker 1: so what are you saying? They said, well, you know, sir,
Speaker 1: there are lists people who's poppy is supposed to destroy.
Speaker 1: So all the trips would always say. The farmers would saying,
Speaker 1: am I on the list? And the trips are already
Speaker 1: all packed? Nope, nope, because they didn't want the farmers,
Speaker 1: you know, shooting at us. I mean, where are we.
Speaker 1: We're in the Wizard of Oz country. It's amazing because
Speaker 1: you know, with all of this going on, you would
Speaker 1: think that we would have had some kind of a
Speaker 1: strategy to get them to stop doing that. And I
Speaker 1: know that that's a losing strategy. I mean, we tried
Speaker 1: it in you know, Bolivia. I was down there for
Speaker 1: that Columbia. I was down there for that, but you know,
Speaker 1: but we just kind of turned a blind eye to
Speaker 1: that opium trade, and you know, um, and of course
Speaker 1: all the heroine that's coming out of there. I mean,
Speaker 1: in know, you talk about it in the book. And
Speaker 1: I never realized how much money was flowing through to
Speaker 1: these farmers because we always kind of assumed that the
Speaker 1: farmers were at the low end of the totem pole
Speaker 1: and weren't really making any money. But it's not really true,
Speaker 1: is it. No, the the opposite is true, that that
Speaker 1: the farmers are making an awful lot of money. It's
Speaker 1: an awful lot of money. So yeah, and it's all
Speaker 1: and that's I mean, that's where they're raising all their money,
Speaker 1: is it they get? They get about two thirds of
Speaker 1: their money is drug money and another third is payoff money. Um.
Speaker 1: They collect from everybody for for little things. We pretty
Speaker 1: much I think cut off the Saudis from from you know,
Speaker 1: subsidizing them the way they did it at a certain time. Um.
Speaker 1: But they still have pretty pretty deep coffers. And the
Speaker 1: more they win, the more people will give the money
Speaker 1: because they're afraid mm hmm, Well getting back to the
Speaker 1: book now, And I don't want to give that much
Speaker 1: of the way because I definitely encourage all of our
Speaker 1: listeners and you know, software breeders out there to purchase this.
Speaker 1: It's a fantastic book. It's almost like called the called
Speaker 1: The Last Platoon. Yeah, and it's a it sounds it
Speaker 1: reads like a true story cloaked in fiction. That's all
Speaker 1: I'll say about that. But I wanted to ask you
Speaker 1: about your protagonists. Captain Cruz. Yeah, is he based on
Speaker 1: maybe a person that you've known, or is he maybe
Speaker 1: a conglomeration of a bunch of different people. You know,
Speaker 1: authors are always asked that question. Um be answer is
Speaker 1: yes and yes, um, he's a real human being. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can't be out there with those with those troops
Speaker 1: and embedded uh and watching all the leadership styles without
Speaker 1: really's saying, you know, his leadership style cruise, he's he's
Speaker 1: the kind of leader I'd really like to be out there.
Speaker 1: And then what you do is you and and any
Speaker 1: any novels to tell you this. You start with the
Speaker 1: idea who these characters are going to be? Huh. That
Speaker 1: last for about the first draft. Then the characters run
Speaker 1: away with you they run away with the book. They'll say, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do this,
Speaker 1: And every every single novel is to tell you that.
Speaker 1: And and my my, my wife Betsy. Occasionally I'll be
Speaker 1: sitting there at that, you know, we're eating dinner, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden I'll be quiet, and she'll say,
Speaker 1: you're doing it again. You're talking to those characters, and
Speaker 1: they'll be up in my mind and I'll be idular
Speaker 1: with him about something. And so with Crews. Crews is
Speaker 1: a real guy. They are all real, but their composits.
Speaker 1: But the moral dilemmas that he had, and I kept
Speaker 1: putting in these these problems that he's not one sided
Speaker 1: in his character. He doesn't do everything right. He makes
Speaker 1: some mistakes and some big mistakes, some small mistakes, just
Speaker 1: like all the rest of us. He the character had
Speaker 1: to figure out what he was going to do. I
Speaker 1: wasn't going to figure it out form right. And you know,
Speaker 1: of course he's the central character in the book. And
Speaker 1: you know how you framed his as you say, the
Speaker 1: moral dilemmas that are facing him. I you know, I
Speaker 1: just thought he was such a real character. That's why
Speaker 1: when I was reading the book, I kept thinking he
Speaker 1: has to be based on somebody that you either knew
Speaker 1: or met, and that his character was outstanding because you know,
Speaker 1: he's the he's the combat guy. He's he's not a
Speaker 1: he's not an admin guy. He's not a paper pusher.
Speaker 1: He's you know, at his best when stuff starts flying
Speaker 1: through the air. And yeah, he does make mistakes, everyone does.
Speaker 1: But I just thought, you know, the way he had
Speaker 1: to choose in combat between what he wanted in the States,
Speaker 1: because I don't want to get again, I don't want
Speaker 1: to give too much away, but his sense of duty,
Speaker 1: and uh, I just thought that was really really good.
Speaker 1: I thought it was really good. And I thought all
Speaker 1: the characters were good, but you know, obviously he's the
Speaker 1: central character. And I just thought that, Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: if if you're in combat, you want to Captain Cruz
Speaker 1: as your commander, Well, next time I'm talking with him
Speaker 1: in my head, I'll tell him you said so the
Speaker 1: other thing. The other thing that you said, the only
Speaker 1: grant only somebody who's been out there and has the
Speaker 1: experience could say. Because it all came down to that
Speaker 1: when you said his sense of duty in the end,
Speaker 1: his sense of what he should do rather than what
Speaker 1: he knew would be best for his promotion, etcetera. That
Speaker 1: that's what was weighing on his conscience. And I'm glad
Speaker 1: you brought that out. Let me just read these words
Speaker 1: to you, because I put this at the beginning of
Speaker 1: the book and people forget this so quickly. But this
Speaker 1: is it. In doing what we ought, we deserve no
Speaker 1: praise because it is our duty. And St. Augustine wrote that,
Speaker 1: and that when you really think on that, when you
Speaker 1: do your duty, don't expect praise for it. Don't don't
Speaker 1: expect that. Gee, you know, look at me. No, you
Speaker 1: do your duty. But that's so hard to do. So,
Speaker 1: you know, when we see so many people in life
Speaker 1: at all levels that we know of fakers and they
Speaker 1: got there, they got ahead because they have fakers. But
Speaker 1: when you run into somebody like Crews, whom I have
Speaker 1: the pleasure of actually knowing, then then you see the
Speaker 1: real guy who who takes risks and does things knowing
Speaker 1: he's not going to get a good fitness report because
Speaker 1: he did it and it's actually going to hurt him,
Speaker 1: and he still does it. And that that's the Again,
Speaker 1: that's the kind of officer that you want when you
Speaker 1: know the stuff hits the fan. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: because he's not going to put his career first. He's
Speaker 1: gonna put the men first in the mission. And that's
Speaker 1: the the Those are the kind of leaders that you want. Well,
Speaker 1: I do have to ask you, um, was there a
Speaker 1: reason why you framed it as a novel just so
Speaker 1: you could get all the perspective in there? Yes, And
Speaker 1: I want to tell it. I wanted to tell a
Speaker 1: story so that the reader would turning the page and say,
Speaker 1: and then what happened? And then what happened? Because that's
Speaker 1: all We all love stories. So this is a story.
Speaker 1: This is what happens to a small group of of
Speaker 1: young men when they're put into a tough situation. And
Speaker 1: then the CIA comes in and the CIA has its
Speaker 1: own agenda, and then the president reluctantly has let this
Speaker 1: happen and doesn't think too much is going to go wrong.
Speaker 1: And then you have the Taliban lead bys are saying, oh,
Speaker 1: they're not going to be on my turf. And then
Speaker 1: you have higher ups on the other side in Pakistan saying, oh,
Speaker 1: they're getting too close to where we have a hundred
Speaker 1: million dollars at stake, and so from different perspectives, this
Speaker 1: suddenly begins to escalate and no one any longer is
Speaker 1: in charge of it. This is going to be a
Speaker 1: dinamic that plays out and it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: detective story, but you're playing for lives. Yeah, and uh
Speaker 1: you know that's uh, it's it's it's a compelling point.
Speaker 1: And like you said, every time you turn the page,
Speaker 1: you know you want to ask, Okay, now, what's gonna
Speaker 1: happen next? Because the characters are all you know, you're
Speaker 1: you're wondering if this guy's I is gonna fly off
Speaker 1: the handle, which he had been prone to do. And
Speaker 1: then you have so many of these other people involved,
Speaker 1: and then you bring in the c I A paramilitary
Speaker 1: guys who are a little bit older. They have a
Speaker 1: lot more experience than maybe the young grunts that are,
Speaker 1: you know, on their first tour with the Marines. So
Speaker 1: you know, the Marines are naturally going to look up
Speaker 1: to these guys because they've kind of been there, done that,
Speaker 1: and they know that they can they can sense that.
Speaker 1: And I thought that the realism that's involved with that,
Speaker 1: it all comes right through and uh, um, did you
Speaker 1: have any contact when you were over in in Afghanistan
Speaker 1: with any of the paramilitary guys from C I A,
Speaker 1: what do you think, um, Actually, and I I picked
Speaker 1: up you said earlier in the conversation Special Activities, So
Speaker 1: I know I'm talking to a guy who understands that, UM,
Speaker 1: And and that's exactly what happens. Look, the Agency has
Speaker 1: done a great job of picking the best out of
Speaker 1: the SF and out of the Army and the Marines. Okay,
Speaker 1: they can offer them more money and more freedom, and
Speaker 1: and they're doing very very good work with their with
Speaker 1: their special teams. So I brought in some of those
Speaker 1: people so people would understand that these people really are
Speaker 1: out there and are very very good. And and that
Speaker 1: leads to my next book. Because my next book I'm
Speaker 1: writing UM with the head of the Special Activities Group
Speaker 1: who's now retired, and we're trying to persuade people to
Speaker 1: you know, you really want to know what they do.
Speaker 1: Here's here's a book. And that's the next book I'm doing.
Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome. I can't wait to read that one
Speaker 1: because uh yeah, some of the uh, the technology that
Speaker 1: those guys add in the book, it UM, you know,
Speaker 1: it's just astounding too. You know, those of us who
Speaker 1: served in an earlier generation, we didn't have those kind
Speaker 1: of toys at our disposal. And it's just I would
Speaker 1: have loved that one of them. I wanted to bring
Speaker 1: that into that when they go on the battlefield today,
Speaker 1: all the way down on the squad right out there,
Speaker 1: I have them with their own little drones, because that's true,
Speaker 1: they have them in their own iPads, um, and and
Speaker 1: the the enemy has adapted. So I wanted to show
Speaker 1: them how Tsar and the other side we're trying to
Speaker 1: combat against this um so that it's not all one
Speaker 1: sided at all, but each side is trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how am I going to use my advantages to
Speaker 1: win this one? And so it's it's it's it's a
Speaker 1: mystery who's going to win? I'll bet you to the
Speaker 1: end you didn't know who was gonna win and lose
Speaker 1: on that one. No, I did not. And that's that's
Speaker 1: the beauty of the book. And and again, um, I
Speaker 1: think it's fantastic. So I can't wait to read the
Speaker 1: next one. Now now now you have my interest peaked,
Speaker 1: But I take it it's gonna take a little while
Speaker 1: for that to come out. So this one just was
Speaker 1: released today, but you know that that was the the
Speaker 1: curse of getting an advanced copy because now I've already
Speaker 1: read it, and but I don't want to give too
Speaker 1: much away. Like I said on our podcast, we will
Speaker 1: do a review of the book for our listeners out there.
Speaker 1: We will post a review of the book on our website.
Speaker 1: We'll have that up asap, but we encourage all of
Speaker 1: our listeners and readers out there check it out. You'll
Speaker 1: definitely enjoy this. I think it's a fantastic book. And uh,
Speaker 1: if you want to know what's going on in Afghanistan,
Speaker 1: this is why we've been there for the years. I
Speaker 1: believe in we're back to square one. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: very much, Stave. So. I enjoyed writing The Last Platoon
Speaker 1: and I hope it does help our troops that people
Speaker 1: will know what they really do. So I appreciate pretty much.
Speaker 1: You know you're having me on. Well, it was our pleasure, sir,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, thanks again, and before I would
Speaker 1: be remiss if I didn't mention. I'm sure many of
Speaker 1: our listeners know this. It's your son. Owen was also
Speaker 1: a Marine recon platoon leader and I believe a company commander,
Speaker 1: and he was the Under Secretary of State, excuse me,
Speaker 1: under Secretary of Defense for special operations. So um, I
Speaker 1: guess the apple far far from the three there. Well,
Speaker 1: I I have the honor under President Reagan of being
Speaker 1: the Assistant Secretary for International Security, and then owen my
Speaker 1: it was the assistant secretary under my good friend General
Speaker 1: Jim mattis uh for special Operations. But you did say
Speaker 1: when we when we started the conversation, you said off
Speaker 1: fline to me, you know they should do more to
Speaker 1: bulk up that position. And I agree that that position,
Speaker 1: being the Assistant Secretary for Special Operations forces because he
Speaker 1: has a very small staff and he doesn't report directly
Speaker 1: to the Secretary of Defense, and that's wrong because he
Speaker 1: needs a larger staff among the civilians to to be
Speaker 1: able to get the resources the special ops need, and
Speaker 1: he can't be cut out. He to a large extent.
Speaker 1: The special ops are so special and it's going to
Speaker 1: grow in cyber too, by the way that they they
Speaker 1: deserve to have somebody equivalent to the Secretary of the
Speaker 1: Navy of the Secretary of the Army. So um, I'm
Speaker 1: not special pleading for the sake of my son, because
Speaker 1: he's left that post now. But I am for the
Speaker 1: Special Operations Forces. They need a civilian who has given
Speaker 1: more clout and and I hope that happens. And before
Speaker 1: we sign off, I just wanted to ask you. You
Speaker 1: mentioned General Maddis, and I know you spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time with him over the years and you wrote
Speaker 1: a book along with him about leadership. And you know, um,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people really admire General Maddis
Speaker 1: out there. He seems to be one of those kind
Speaker 1: of guys that he's kind of like the Captain Cruz
Speaker 1: who made it all the way to the top, because
Speaker 1: he's not a paper pusher either. No, Jim Maddis is not.
Speaker 1: And that's why he left after two years. Um, Jim
Speaker 1: will just tell you the truth. I mean, and oh
Speaker 1: he worked. I mean, Steve's unbelievable work ethic, Uh, but
Speaker 1: he is. He is. It's scary how honest he is.
Speaker 1: He'll just tell you logically what he's thinking and what
Speaker 1: he expects. So the troops loved him because he said,
Speaker 1: you know, they when he went on a battlefield, he
Speaker 1: grew fangs. I mean, you know, he went on a
Speaker 1: battlefield for only one reason. He he actually changed the
Speaker 1: orders at one point when when it's a felloj from
Speaker 1: capture or kill to kill or capture, to make sure
Speaker 1: that people understood what he expected was going to happen
Speaker 1: when you went into those houses where the terrorists were hiding. Um,
Speaker 1: Jim Mannis is just a straight shooter who was really
Speaker 1: smart and totally dedicated. But he he won't duck. And
Speaker 1: you asked him a question, you're going to get the answer.
Speaker 1: Imagine getting together with him and writing the book was
Speaker 1: probably a lot of fun for you as well. Are
Speaker 1: you kidding? It was agony? Can you imagine? I mean,
Speaker 1: I wish you washing You know, I'm just a marine.
Speaker 1: You know you can push me around. Can you imagine
Speaker 1: putting Madison me on the same phone trying to get
Speaker 1: one sentence done? You know, you know, we we spent
Speaker 1: we spent two years for for three hours, four hours
Speaker 1: a day, you know, and in intellectual hand to hand
Speaker 1: combat about every single sentence. You know, So you know, yes,
Speaker 1: I try to tell you you you you you undertake
Speaker 1: a task with you matters. He throws his body and
Speaker 1: soul into it. So but but I think I think
Speaker 1: that book. It's called Costs and Chaos. I think it's
Speaker 1: really a good book. It tells you why Jim Madis
Speaker 1: was such a good leader. You know, it has good
Speaker 1: leadership lessons excellent. Well, that's something I think that's in
Speaker 1: short supply these days. We need. We need better leaders
Speaker 1: and we need good ones, especially for our troops if
Speaker 1: we're gonna put them out there in harms way, because
Speaker 1: we don't need to be fighting twenty year wars that
Speaker 1: you know, we're asking our troops to do what they're
Speaker 1: not trained to do. Absolutely, I wouldn't agree more. Well, sir,
Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time with us, uh this afternoon.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining us. Um uh.
Speaker 1: You know your book was fantastic. I look forward to
Speaker 1: the next one. Um and um yeah, we hope to
Speaker 1: have you on here again soon when that one does
Speaker 1: come out. Before we leave, uh, I just want to say,
Speaker 1: if you want to get software on your phone, download
Speaker 1: our free mobile app and get easy access to our articles,
Speaker 1: podcasts and gear reviews, all perfectly formatted to your device. Well,
Speaker 1: you subscribe to soft reap dot com to get access
Speaker 1: to all our library of e books and our exclusive
Speaker 1: team or informs and content available on all your Apple
Speaker 1: and Android devices. M uh for all of us here
Speaker 1: at softwarep dot com and softwap radio. Mr West, thank
Speaker 1: you for joining us. Your book was fantastic. We look
Speaker 1: forward to many more and uh let's do it again
Speaker 1: real soon, all right. Thanks An Botch, Steve Saprify, all right,
Speaker 1: take care, love them. Listening to self rep Radio