Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wi wasn't Thal, and I'm Tracy Alloway. So, Tracy,
Speaker 1: I know that you don't play chess, that we've already established,
Speaker 1: but was this is the show Queen's Gambit. Is that
Speaker 1: stream in Hong Kong? Okay? So two things. First of all,
Speaker 1: I do play chess. I know how to play chess.
Speaker 1: I just don't play it with any regularity, and I
Speaker 1: don't know like the names of the moves and the
Speaker 1: openings and all of that in the same way that
Speaker 1: you do. Secondly, I did watch Queen's Gambit and I
Speaker 1: thought it was excellent. Did you after watching it get
Speaker 1: excited and like want to play chess and go online
Speaker 1: and have any interest because a lot of people apparently did. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I heard that. So my problem with chess has always
Speaker 1: been that I'm just not very very good at it,
Speaker 1: and I'm not motivated to get better. So when I
Speaker 1: watch something like Queen's Gambit, I actually find it demotivating
Speaker 1: because I think I'll just never be as good as
Speaker 1: these people. So but um, yes, I heard that. It
Speaker 1: set off a huge wave of interest in chess over
Speaker 1: well in the States primarily. Yeah, no, it has been
Speaker 1: pretty wild. I was. I mean, I've played chess all
Speaker 1: my life, but very often on like, I'll go through
Speaker 1: these phases where I'll play a lot and get addicted,
Speaker 1: and then I realize I'm playing too much and I
Speaker 1: won't play for two years, and that I'll start playing again.
Speaker 1: So I was among the people who, after watching it,
Speaker 1: started playing a bunch again. And now, like what I'm
Speaker 1: like getting makeup done for going on TV or on
Speaker 1: the subway or something like that, I'll like or in
Speaker 1: a car, I'll play like a quick uh, a quick
Speaker 1: game of a blitz on chess dot com. So I
Speaker 1: am one of those people who has got the bug
Speaker 1: again after watching that show. Now, if you're going to
Speaker 1: get addicted to something, I'd say playing chess online is
Speaker 1: probably a reasonably healthy addiction, right, Yeah, I guess so. Um,
Speaker 1: you know what else I've gotten really addicted to besides
Speaker 1: playing chess, watching grand masters stream their chess games live
Speaker 1: online and talking about them. See, now this is something
Speaker 1: that I don't think I would necessarily get. Why is that?
Speaker 1: Why is that interesting? Well, I don't know, I mean
Speaker 1: it is. I find it to be extremely transfixing. But um,
Speaker 1: there's something I particularly like watching someone do something and
Speaker 1: seeing them talk about their thought process at the same time. Like,
Speaker 1: I find that I learned well that way, So it's
Speaker 1: like better than reading for me, better than listening. Like
Speaker 1: watching someone do something, whether it's cooking, whether it's some
Speaker 1: other skill, or whether it's playing chess. The process of
Speaker 1: watching someone sort of like talk out their thoughts in
Speaker 1: real time I find to be very compelling. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: could see that being um mildly interesting. Sure, but you're
Speaker 1: I mean, you're right that chess has had a massive year,
Speaker 1: and alongside this renewed interest from Queen's Gambit, we are
Speaker 1: seeing like a major major uptick, or let me say,
Speaker 1: a major change in the way people are actually like
Speaker 1: watching and engaging. Yeah, and of course this whole life
Speaker 1: phenomenon of people streaming their chess games live, it's part
Speaker 1: of a much bigger phenomenon which I'm really fascinated about.
Speaker 1: But I actually haven't like dug into that much, which
Speaker 1: is the whole world of like twitch streaming. And there
Speaker 1: are people who make lots of money and are just
Speaker 1: incredibly popular, um, playing video games live online. So people
Speaker 1: watching someone play a game like I don't even know
Speaker 1: what a popular game is Halo. I think that's a
Speaker 1: popular game. Stuff like that. I don't know, a World
Speaker 1: of Warcraft or something streaming that live on Twitch people
Speaker 1: have like millions of fans. It's this massive, massive phenomenon
Speaker 1: of which chess is a sort of a small part
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, I think that's right. But also, I mean,
Speaker 1: we did see a pick up in people watching video
Speaker 1: games on Twitch. Everyone was stuck at home, You're sort
Speaker 1: of looking for new sources of entertainment, and somewhat surprisingly,
Speaker 1: chess has also been part of that streaming or twitch boom.
Speaker 1: So I am very excited about our guests because not
Speaker 1: only are we going to be talking to someone who
Speaker 1: streams on Twitch, he's also, in his own right, one
Speaker 1: of the best chess players in the entire world Twitch aside.
Speaker 1: A real treat to be talking to him about the
Speaker 1: sort of I guess the chess economy. Is actually someone
Speaker 1: we had on years ago on odd Lots to talk
Speaker 1: about trading, and overlapped between chess and trading. But I'm
Speaker 1: very excited we're gonna be speaking to Hikaru Nakamura. He
Speaker 1: became a grand master at the age of fifteen, beating
Speaker 1: at the time, breaking the record. Apparently some people have
Speaker 1: broken the record for the youngest ever American grand master
Speaker 1: at the time. He's also the highest rated blitz chess
Speaker 1: player in the entire world. Also just one of the
Speaker 1: top players in regular time controls, and he is fantastic
Speaker 1: to watch on Twitch. So Hakara, thank you very much
Speaker 1: for joining us. It's good to be here. It's been
Speaker 1: quite a while. So what's this year been like? What?
Speaker 1: How do is the what's the post Queen's Gambit world?
Speaker 1: How different is it compared to the pre Queen's Gambit world? So,
Speaker 1: I mean I think, uh, you kind of have to
Speaker 1: go back to the beginning of COVID in terms of chess.
Speaker 1: So one of the weird things with chess is that
Speaker 1: Queen's Gambit certainly has been a boom, but there's actually
Speaker 1: another boom um of chess on Twitch, specifically between March
Speaker 1: and about June of this year. So in about March,
Speaker 1: when when um, when the lockdown started happening, everyone was
Speaker 1: staying at home, Um, the viewership for chess and the
Speaker 1: viewership in general on Twitch start exploding. Um. But in particular,
Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that's very unique
Speaker 1: to Twitch is that when you see the top streamers
Speaker 1: are top influencers, what they gravitate towards in terms of games. Now,
Speaker 1: I know you mentioned Halo before. If you said that
Speaker 1: on Twitch just two people, they'd be like, you're such
Speaker 1: a boomer polar at all. I don't know anything about
Speaker 1: video games. I just that was the first thing that
Speaker 1: came to my head. I knew I was gonna embarrass myself,
Speaker 1: and I said, no, it's it's fine. But so like
Speaker 1: this is kind of thing is there are a lot
Speaker 1: of games that people play, and um, one thing that's
Speaker 1: that's uh unique, I think two chess is a sort
Speaker 1: of it's it's it's had this presence offline over the
Speaker 1: board chess has been around, I mean forever basically, but
Speaker 1: online there hasn't really been this interest or there hasn't
Speaker 1: been where you can find people who are streaming it.
Speaker 1: Um in the way that Twitch really sets itself apart
Speaker 1: because with Twitch you can just go you can look
Speaker 1: at the chess category and find people to watch. So um,
Speaker 1: probably in March, I would say March or early April,
Speaker 1: a couple of the biggest streamers on the platform they
Speaker 1: started getting interested in chess and and that sort of
Speaker 1: created this snowball effect where because of them, a lot
Speaker 1: of other streamers started playing chess as well. And um,
Speaker 1: and then then eventually it kind of culminated in this
Speaker 1: major event that we had called pog Champs in June.
Speaker 1: But there was this big boom from like Marcia June,
Speaker 1: then there was sort of it dipped a little bit,
Speaker 1: I would say in July, August, and September. It didn't
Speaker 1: like go down to or was before COVID, before COVID happened,
Speaker 1: but um, around like late October, and then of course
Speaker 1: in November it's it's taken off again. And I would say, actually,
Speaker 1: in many ways, my viewership now is higher than it
Speaker 1: was even at the peak when there was a first
Speaker 1: move on Twitch. I think that's largely because that boom
Speaker 1: in March was solely people who are already on Twitch,
Speaker 1: who are used to watching streamers and influencers on the
Speaker 1: platform where it's Queen's gamb But I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people who are just watched the show on Netflix
Speaker 1: and they're like, they weren't on Twitch, or they weren't
Speaker 1: looking on Twitch and YouTube, and then they sort of
Speaker 1: were trying to find chess content, so they end up
Speaker 1: filtering over to both both both platforms. So we're gonna
Speaker 1: get into, um a lot of what's going on on
Speaker 1: Twitch and like the dynamics driving that and things like
Speaker 1: that in more detail. But before we do, since you
Speaker 1: mentioned Queen's Gambit, how accurate was that of a portrayal
Speaker 1: of the world of competitive chess and did you like it? Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: first of all, I love the show. I think in
Speaker 1: terms of chess, whether it's a television show or whether
Speaker 1: it's a movie, it's by far and away the best
Speaker 1: portrayal of chess because there are a lot of there
Speaker 1: are a lot of moments in the show. Um, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you both watched it or not, but
Speaker 1: there were some moments where you see this this this character,
Speaker 1: Benny Watts, who is the United States chess champion, and
Speaker 1: you see him living in this very sort of um
Speaker 1: let's let's just say it's it's not it's not a
Speaker 1: great apartment in New York City, And in many ways
Speaker 1: that's been That's that's a very accurate portrayal because even
Speaker 1: the best players in the world of chess, outside of
Speaker 1: say the absolute best, like the top two or three players,
Speaker 1: they would not be making a lot of money from
Speaker 1: the game of chess itself. So there are a lot
Speaker 1: of moments in the show when I was watching where
Speaker 1: it's like wow, you know, it reminds me of some
Speaker 1: some experience that I had, or things along those lines.
Speaker 1: So for the most part, is very accurate. The only
Speaker 1: part that I think, unfortunately was not so accurate is that, um,
Speaker 1: there are there are some I would I would say
Speaker 1: players don't always treat female players as nicely as a
Speaker 1: Beth Harmon is treat in the show, So there there
Speaker 1: can be some there can be a barrier to entry
Speaker 1: for for female players. Um So that's the only thing
Speaker 1: that I would say is not necessarily accurate. But overall
Speaker 1: it's fantastically done and I loved it. Uh So, you
Speaker 1: mentioned that you're in the post Queen's game, but world
Speaker 1: that you're streaming numbers are as high as ever. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about the business of streaming first of all, like,
Speaker 1: how many people watch you at any given time? Typically, right,
Speaker 1: So I so just to give some some some more background,
Speaker 1: I think probably when I when I started treading about
Speaker 1: a year ago and up until maybe January February, I
Speaker 1: would get maybe, let's just say two thousand and three
Speaker 1: thousand viewers concurrent viewers on average, and then during the
Speaker 1: peak when it really started going up in in March
Speaker 1: and April, I was getting around ten to twelve thousand
Speaker 1: every stream. UM, So it went up there, and then
Speaker 1: then there was a summer roll where it dipped a
Speaker 1: little bit below ten thousand years around nine hous of.
Speaker 1: But nowadays, especially the last month or so, I'm getting
Speaker 1: around fifteen to sixteen thousand concurrent viewers um for every stream.
Speaker 1: And when there have been major chess tournaments, which we
Speaker 1: can talk about the sports as well, but when they've
Speaker 1: been major competitions that the peak viewership I've had has
Speaker 1: actually been close to fifty viewers, So it's really really large. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So you mentioned that, Um it all kicked off with
Speaker 1: some existing Twitch streamers who suddenly got interested in chess.
Speaker 1: Why did that happen? And what's what's the overlap between
Speaker 1: the usual video games people are are streaming on that
Speaker 1: platform versus the oldest game in the world. So I think, um,
Speaker 1: first of all, it's very tricky because one thing that
Speaker 1: a lot of streamers who do variety where they don't
Speaker 1: just play one game per se. They tend to they
Speaker 1: tend to move around and try to see where they
Speaker 1: get the best audiences, and most people watch. So when
Speaker 1: you think about chess, and especially like in March or April,
Speaker 1: before it had gotten this traction um, you would think
Speaker 1: that most streamers, especially the biggest, one of the biggest ones,
Speaker 1: they'd be worried that their numbers be going down if
Speaker 1: they tried to stream chess. UM. But I would say
Speaker 1: one streamer in particular, his name is x q c
Speaker 1: o w UM. He started streaming chess pretty much regardless
Speaker 1: of what his viewership was because he loved the game,
Speaker 1: and so naturally more streamers started seeing that and um
Speaker 1: and then beyond that, I think it's just just a
Speaker 1: very easy game to get into. I mean, you don't
Speaker 1: you really if you you only have to learn the
Speaker 1: basic rules of how the pieces move, and then you
Speaker 1: can just go off on your own and play games.
Speaker 1: Um and so I think it's very friendly and the
Speaker 1: barrier to entry is really low, unlike say a major
Speaker 1: e sport like League of Legends, for example, where you
Speaker 1: have to learn all the different basically different champions. You
Speaker 1: can pick. You have to learn a lot of different
Speaker 1: strategies there. There there's a lot to learn, and so
Speaker 1: the barrier to entry, even just starting out is very high,
Speaker 1: whereas with chess it's a lot lower. So I think
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the biggest reasons that that
Speaker 1: I started getting going is that there are a couple
Speaker 1: of streams they just like, they didn't care, They just
Speaker 1: love the game of chess and they just started playing
Speaker 1: as much as they as much as they could. So
Speaker 1: you mentioned in the show that one character, not exactly
Speaker 1: he was like the best player in the US, I guess,
Speaker 1: and his life didn't seem that great. He wasn't like
Speaker 1: rolling in riches. Uh, what is the revenue model for
Speaker 1: you in terms of how audience on Twitch is monetized?
Speaker 1: And then what's like the combination of like ads, sponsorship,
Speaker 1: Like how does that all work as a pro Yeah? So,
Speaker 1: um so, so none of this is, to be clear,
Speaker 1: none of this really existed in a substantial way if
Speaker 1: you go back nine months. So I've been very fortunate.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, So in terms of in terms of the audience,
Speaker 1: I think the way that you monetize your viewership is
Speaker 1: when you have very high numbers and you have high
Speaker 1: averages or say the thirty days or periods UM. Sponsors
Speaker 1: see those numbers and then you have you have opportunities
Speaker 1: where their sponsor will come to you in the ask
Speaker 1: you to promote their product UM whatever it may be.
Speaker 1: For example, I've done a couple of them, but probably
Speaker 1: I did a bounty the paper towel company. I did
Speaker 1: an add for them several months back. And so when
Speaker 1: you have these very high concurrent viewers and these averages UM,
Speaker 1: a lot of sponsors interesting getting their product out there.
Speaker 1: And I think this also speaks to media as well,
Speaker 1: that you see more of these sponsors moving, moving to Twitch,
Speaker 1: moving to YouTube, and seeing that in this day and age,
Speaker 1: most people are now like getting their content from the
Speaker 1: internet as opposed to watching on TV. Probably the biggest
Speaker 1: that's the biggest way with the numbers matter. UM. You
Speaker 1: can also run run ads. A lot of streamers run ads.
Speaker 1: You can run like thirty second ads, a sixty second
Speaker 1: ad UM or a three minute ads. So that's usually
Speaker 1: the periods of times that you run ads. UM. I
Speaker 1: don't know exactly how that revenue is calculated in terms
Speaker 1: of how much you make, but more viewers you have
Speaker 1: obviously obviously it's higher UM. And then the third third
Speaker 1: part is UM is subscribers. So you can subscribe to
Speaker 1: any channel on Twitch for five dollars a month for
Speaker 1: Tier one. There's a tier two option which is ten dollars.
Speaker 1: I believe in the Tier three which is twenty five
Speaker 1: dollars a month. And basically what you get out of
Speaker 1: this is you get the usage of the emotes. So
Speaker 1: I don't know how familiar the audience is going to
Speaker 1: be with Twitch, but when you go on Twitch, a
Speaker 1: large part of it is the interaction between the streamer
Speaker 1: and the community itself. So when you're watching the chat scroll,
Speaker 1: a lot of times are these emotes. They're basically like
Speaker 1: where they just you know, things are moving and and
Speaker 1: it just becomes this big community and so a lot
Speaker 1: of people subscribe for that on top of essentially just
Speaker 1: supporting the streamer as well. So it's it's very similar,
Speaker 1: I would say, to like tipping, but you get some
Speaker 1: added benefits on top of that. Yeah, so I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you about this. I guess that interactive element
Speaker 1: of Twitch streaming. So we already mentioned UM that you
Speaker 1: you play blitz or speed chess, and I think you're
Speaker 1: sort of known for playing in a very specific way,
Speaker 1: and and you've done stuff in the past like playing
Speaker 1: blindfold matches or matches without means and rooks and things
Speaker 1: like that. Do you think your particular style of chess
Speaker 1: is especially well suited to a live platform like Twitch
Speaker 1: And is there anything that you do um or that
Speaker 1: you've started to do in order to adapt to that platform.
Speaker 1: So I think, um, certainly, I'm very well adapted to
Speaker 1: it because when when when I look back to when
Speaker 1: I was much younger, some of my earliest experiences of
Speaker 1: playing chess were on the Internet. I used to play
Speaker 1: on the site called the Internet. I was like ten
Speaker 1: or eleven years old, and in many cases I would
Speaker 1: play games I would actually type at the same time.
Speaker 1: So it was basically I play the games that I'd
Speaker 1: be talking to people via typing because at the time
Speaker 1: there there there wasn't a technology. Um. So in many ways,
Speaker 1: I think I'm very fortunate that I had that. That
Speaker 1: certainly has helped me transition onto Twitch. Um. I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've really had to change anything specifically.
Speaker 1: The one thing that I have done is I've tried
Speaker 1: to make chess much more friendly to the people who
Speaker 1: are not, say, grand masters the game. So you know,
Speaker 1: like joke could joke, Joe could allude to this, but
Speaker 1: when he watches I definitely will use certain words at
Speaker 1: times that make no sense whatsoever. So if you spend
Speaker 1: if you spend a lot of time playing chests, and
Speaker 1: you tune into my stream, you might be like, wait,
Speaker 1: what did you just say? What? What's that piece? What's
Speaker 1: what's going on? Because I use some some some jargon
Speaker 1: that's not not standard per se. So that's the one
Speaker 1: thing I have done. But I think a large part
Speaker 1: of it, and probably the biggest reason that I have
Speaker 1: the success I do is um the fact that I
Speaker 1: am as good at chess as I am over the board,
Speaker 1: having that, having that credibility, and the fact that I
Speaker 1: can also play the games and more or less in
Speaker 1: some cases just talk to the audience while I'm playing
Speaker 1: the game, still win most of the time. All Right,
Speaker 1: here's a stupid question that I've been wondering about the
Speaker 1: whole time, and I have to say, like I've tuned
Speaker 1: into a bunch of your streams, I find it really enjoyable.
Speaker 1: I think you're sort of a natural host, extremely engaging.
Speaker 1: It looks like you're having a fun time. It's clear
Speaker 1: the your fans are enjoying it. What if someone is
Speaker 1: is someone you're playing against, did they ever watch it?
Speaker 1: Like you're talking about your thinking, you're talking about potential moves,
Speaker 1: you're talking about, you know, certain ideas that you may
Speaker 1: be exploring in the game. Does it ever happen? But
Speaker 1: like the person on the other end is like watching
Speaker 1: you talk through the game. So this is this is
Speaker 1: uh common I think to to streaming in general. It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether its chess or other games. What you're
Speaker 1: referring to is essentially called stream sniping, or someone watches
Speaker 1: the stream and so like you know, if it's it's
Speaker 1: like a shooter game, for example, you're on a map,
Speaker 1: someone someone will watch a stream, will try to magically,
Speaker 1: they'll they'll see where you know, there's there's a name
Speaker 1: for this phenomenon. Yeah, it's called stream sniping. So so
Speaker 1: that's what it's called. Yeah, So I mean it does
Speaker 1: happen from time to time. Again, um, there there's a
Speaker 1: difference in the competitions when I when I'm normally just
Speaker 1: in my regular streaming, it's more it's more for fun,
Speaker 1: it's it's just sort of in the spirit. So it
Speaker 1: does happen from time to time, but but very rarely
Speaker 1: doesn't really affect the outcome of the game per se
Speaker 1: um and most players don't do it, so it's not
Speaker 1: that big of an issue. Um. When it comes to
Speaker 1: like the more serious competitions, um and just like having
Speaker 1: these these big prize funds, these these sort of east
Speaker 1: work petitions, then then of course I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: actually usually streaming, but it they compliment each other. So
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about the response from I
Speaker 1: guess the traditional chess community. Uh, the game is not
Speaker 1: necessarily known for adapting and evolving that quickly. People have
Speaker 1: been playing well, from my understanding, like fairly similarly for
Speaker 1: many many years. Has there been any pushback to playing
Speaker 1: chess in this particular way on this new platform to
Speaker 1: people think that, you know, it's somehow like denigrating the
Speaker 1: game to to be doing it in this way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I would say when during the first moment around
Speaker 1: April April and May specifically, there were certainly some people
Speaker 1: who are who are really unhappy to see what was happening,
Speaker 1: because chess has traditionally has been very sort of closed
Speaker 1: or hasn't been much in the way of change. If
Speaker 1: you if you look at chess now versus twenty years ago,
Speaker 1: there isn't really much of a difference. It's generally the
Speaker 1: same player as it's organizers. Just just the general um,
Speaker 1: the general structure and everything around it has been pretty similar.
Speaker 1: So I think there were definitely people who are upset UM.
Speaker 1: My my argument. I think in many ways the thing
Speaker 1: that is most important and the key is if you
Speaker 1: look at um, if you look at the game of chess.
Speaker 1: I think there have been It's not studies, but I
Speaker 1: think there was. There was a fact that was given
Speaker 1: by the governing body of Chess feed A that said
Speaker 1: approximately five million people or six or a million people
Speaker 1: around the world have been exposed to the game of
Speaker 1: chess now. That is a very large number. I don't
Speaker 1: think there's any other game UM sort of basically a
Speaker 1: non sport where you can make that claim that there's
Speaker 1: that number of people worldwide who are familiar with something UM.
Speaker 1: So from that standpoint, when you see a number like that,
Speaker 1: you have to realize the vast majority of those people
Speaker 1: are not people who are going to play the game
Speaker 1: at a high level. Um. In fact, most of those
Speaker 1: people are simply gonna probably know the basic moves or
Speaker 1: know what chess is that you have, you know, the king,
Speaker 1: the queen of the bishop, knights and so forth. So
Speaker 1: so for that reason, I think when you have such
Speaker 1: a large potential market, it's very important to be inclusive
Speaker 1: of people of all levels. And like, like you were
Speaker 1: saying earlier, Tracy, very often times when someone's new to
Speaker 1: chess and they play the game, let's just say they
Speaker 1: start up playing, they lose some games like well, I'm stupid.
Speaker 1: I I you know, I can't play this game. I'm
Speaker 1: just not gonna ever gonna be any good at it. Um.
Speaker 1: I think that's certainly uh turns people off. And so
Speaker 1: you really do need to be very inclusive of everybody.
Speaker 1: And so that's also why, like when when I play
Speaker 1: very oftentimes I do keep it simpler. I do try
Speaker 1: to make it more understandable. And also like there are
Speaker 1: many times when I'm streaming, I'll say, oh, what a
Speaker 1: stupid move I made, And to me, it is very stupid.
Speaker 1: Because I really like perfection. I try to be the
Speaker 1: best I can. But I think that's also very relatable
Speaker 1: for a lot of the audience because most people are
Speaker 1: watching are not super strong chess players. They're just trying
Speaker 1: to get something out of the game of chess. So
Speaker 1: just on that note, again, I haven't spent that much
Speaker 1: time on Twitch, but one of my understandings of it
Speaker 1: is that it's not exactly the friendliest place in the world,
Speaker 1: Like a lot of the people who are watching you
Speaker 1: play might be insulting you at the same time and saying, oh,
Speaker 1: you just made a really stupid move. How do you
Speaker 1: How do you deal with that sort of element of
Speaker 1: toxicity when you're trying to make the game as welcoming
Speaker 1: and inclusive as possible. Well, now, now you come to
Speaker 1: basically the thing that makes Twitch the most amazing, which
Speaker 1: is that all channels have moderators, and these are people
Speaker 1: just just normal people on Twitch who for the most part,
Speaker 1: they volunteer their time. They moderate so they can like
Speaker 1: time out a common or block a common and these
Speaker 1: sorts of things. And I'm very fortunate that I've had
Speaker 1: a team of moderators over the last couple of years
Speaker 1: who really worked very hard to keep the chat as
Speaker 1: friendly as they can. And there are many ways that
Speaker 1: you can do that. For example, you can you can
Speaker 1: like time out of common, you can block a common
Speaker 1: so which just vanishes. You can also ban them from
Speaker 1: the channel. But there are other ways you can do it.
Speaker 1: Where I mentioned emotes, which are like these these gifts,
Speaker 1: they're just like moving emotes on the screen. And sometimes
Speaker 1: the chat becomes too like to rollity, or the comments
Speaker 1: are too negative. Sometimes you just turn it into what
Speaker 1: we call emote only, so you can really only right
Speaker 1: with emotes. You can't even like write a comment in
Speaker 1: the chat, and so um. The moderators really in many
Speaker 1: ways or what make Twitch amazing because you have a
Speaker 1: lot of people who volunteer their time. They just love
Speaker 1: watching streamers, they love being on Twitch, and and in
Speaker 1: most cases they do this for free. So that's probably
Speaker 1: that's one of the most important things is having a
Speaker 1: good atmosphere. And I think because of the team of
Speaker 1: mods that I've had at least this year specifically, they
Speaker 1: do a very good job of controlling in and people
Speaker 1: sort of understand what is acceptable and not acceptable. When
Speaker 1: you're playing, how do you find who are the people
Speaker 1: you're playing with? I think people just challenge you on
Speaker 1: chess dot Com or you challengers there like a pool, like,
Speaker 1: how does that? How does that work? So in most
Speaker 1: cases I will just challenge challenge people to various time
Speaker 1: control and play games, whether it's blitz chess which is
Speaker 1: three minutes, bullet chess which is one minute, or slower control.
Speaker 1: That's one thing. But but but what's really great about
Speaker 1: chess is there's just I feel like, so many, so
Speaker 1: many avenues of content. So I can play blitz against people, um.
Speaker 1: I can do what are called viewer arenas, where people
Speaker 1: who are watching the stream has chance to play against me.
Speaker 1: I can play against subscribers of the channel. I can
Speaker 1: do blindfold games. Um. I can also play occasionally serious
Speaker 1: competitions as well when I'm streaming. So I feel like
Speaker 1: there's just so many possibilities, um, in terms of content
Speaker 1: that I mean, that's that's why CHEST is still booming
Speaker 1: even now, um because there's just so many different ways
Speaker 1: of of doing various ideas with CHEST content that a
Speaker 1: lot of the fans enjoy. Could you, in theory play
Speaker 1: a few games against a podcast post on the day
Speaker 1: that U a podcast that you were on came out?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, of course I could. Yeah, it's very unsettled.
Speaker 1: So actually, um, we we did a test I think
Speaker 1: it was maybe a month it was a little over
Speaker 1: a month ago where I played um against I believe
Speaker 1: seventy I think it was seventy seven players at the
Speaker 1: same time. So I was streaming I played against seventy
Speaker 1: seven players at the same time. And actually we did
Speaker 1: like there was a little bit of an entry fee
Speaker 1: to play, but all the money was was donated to
Speaker 1: doctors without boarders, and we just did this sort of
Speaker 1: on the fly. There was nothing specific set up, but
Speaker 1: we just we just did it. So, yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: definitely possible we should do We're that happen. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: should do a finance Twitter chess tournament like we did
Speaker 1: with poker and just have a bunch of people play.
Speaker 1: That's a good idea, Yeah, and then donate it to charity,
Speaker 1: which is what we did and then got all our
Speaker 1: credit cards to fraud it. So that was fun. Hopefully
Speaker 1: that doesn't happen again. Okay, I had a question actually
Speaker 1: on a related note, I was watching some of your
Speaker 1: videos and I saw a few of them. In a
Speaker 1: few of them, you take on bots, like there's one
Speaker 1: here saying that you took down like all of Chess
Speaker 1: dot com spots and things like that. Um, why is
Speaker 1: that interesting to people? And is it different playing against
Speaker 1: bots live in this way, you know, on a streaming platform,
Speaker 1: in a very speedy way to taking down a real
Speaker 1: life opponent. Um. Yeah, So I think that's what you're
Speaker 1: referring to was where there was a competition amongst chess
Speaker 1: streamers where we played against the I think thirty or
Speaker 1: third five programmed boughts that they have on Chess dot Com.
Speaker 1: Each one has a different personality and different skill level.
Speaker 1: So the reason that I think people enjoy watching that
Speaker 1: is because they see they see the challenge like it
Speaker 1: starts out really easy. You play against these bots that
Speaker 1: are basically beginners, and by the end they're they're essentially
Speaker 1: better than than all all the human players are. So
Speaker 1: I think players like to see the progression. Um. But
Speaker 1: that's the second thing is that a lot of the
Speaker 1: is that it's not just Twitch. So a lot of
Speaker 1: my content I also upload to YouTube as well, because
Speaker 1: strangely enough, the the YouTube audience is actually significantly different
Speaker 1: from the Twitch audience. There are a lot of people
Speaker 1: I feel like there are a lot more people from
Speaker 1: outside the US will watch YouTube versus Twitch, which I
Speaker 1: think is very it's very it's very North America cent
Speaker 1: strict to the U. S And Canada. Do you think
Speaker 1: that if Tracy and I um did a thing on
Speaker 1: Twitch where we like had our Bloomberg terminals on the
Speaker 1: screen instead of the chessboard and talked through charge to
Speaker 1: talk to macro and talk trading, that would be popular. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there is a streamer who has had quite a
Speaker 1: bit of success um streaming about finance on Twitch. I
Speaker 1: I don't remember his name right off, will definitely try
Speaker 1: try to find it, but um, that's one of the
Speaker 1: great things about twitched as well. So so for example,
Speaker 1: just briefly about politics. So, so obviously there's a presidential election,
Speaker 1: and I think when the election happened, or when the
Speaker 1: debates were happening, at some point there were maybe three
Speaker 1: hundred thousand plus people on Twitch. We were watching a
Speaker 1: couple of the biggest streamers talk about it or just
Speaker 1: watch the debate itself. And I think there was a
Speaker 1: New York Times article about it. There are several other
Speaker 1: articles and also I think at one point uh Aoc,
Speaker 1: Alexandria Okasia Cortez. She actually played played on Twitch with
Speaker 1: some other streamers, and when she did, at one time
Speaker 1: there were, um there were I think about four thirty
Speaker 1: thousand people who watched her stream, and that I think
Speaker 1: was the second or third highest ever on the platform.
Speaker 1: So it across the board, there are many, many opportunities,
Speaker 1: and I think people are saying I think especially like
Speaker 1: big sponsor as, these big companies are seeing that people
Speaker 1: are watching more and more content on the platforms like
Speaker 1: Twitch and YouTube. So you mentioned towards the beginning of
Speaker 1: this episode Benny Watts from Queen's Gambit and how he
Speaker 1: was living in this really decrepit basement apartment in New York,
Speaker 1: and that was an accurate depiction of how chess players exist,
Speaker 1: and many of them don't actually make that much money
Speaker 1: and can't exist purely off the game. Is Twitch going
Speaker 1: to be enough to change the economics of competitive chess?
Speaker 1: And secondly, are there any other ways that that the
Speaker 1: economics of competitive chess are actually changing at the moment.
Speaker 1: So at the moment, I mean, it's just pre covid.
Speaker 1: I would say that no, that the economics of chess
Speaker 1: we're not changing. It's something where maybe the top twenty,
Speaker 1: top thirty players in the world make a pretty good living.
Speaker 1: Everyone after that and you struggle going from tournament tournament,
Speaker 1: you pay your expenses. It's a very difficult lifestyle. UM
Speaker 1: now because of Twitch, what you're having, first of all,
Speaker 1: is you're having a lot of straight rumors who are
Speaker 1: I would argue, making more money than everyone except the
Speaker 1: top twenty players in the world from streaming uh. And
Speaker 1: beyond that, the economics have changed because now you're having
Speaker 1: more major tournaments being held online. And the reason that
Speaker 1: that's different is because when you have these eyeballs, when
Speaker 1: you have the numbers of the concurrent viewers and you
Speaker 1: can show that to brands, it's very different than saying
Speaker 1: trying to hold a major tournament over the board at
Speaker 1: at you know, some some some location and try to
Speaker 1: get sponsors. So this is also I would argue that
Speaker 1: when people talk about like UM trying to be you know,
Speaker 1: preserve the game as it is, you want more people
Speaker 1: watching the game because that's gonna lead to more sponsors,
Speaker 1: which then can potentially shake up the structure. You can
Speaker 1: have more and more people playing tournaments online and making money.
Speaker 1: So I'm very hopeful that Chess can potentially become an
Speaker 1: e sport down the road. And um. On that note, also,
Speaker 1: like I actually signed a deal in in August with
Speaker 1: one of the sports organizations t SM or Team SoloMid
Speaker 1: uh To to sort of repped them and Peo part
Speaker 1: of their chess teams. So it's a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: is going on that's cool. So do you ever play
Speaker 1: anything besides chess on Twitter? So from time to time,
Speaker 1: I do. UM. I mean I've I've played games like
Speaker 1: among Us, which is the game that you c was playing. Uh,
Speaker 1: I've I've played, Um what else have I've played on stream?
Speaker 1: I've also played Fortnight, I've played Call of Duty. UM.
Speaker 1: It's not something that I do frequently because most of
Speaker 1: my audience they do watch me for the chess um.
Speaker 1: But again, I think from time to time they people
Speaker 1: do enjoy seeing that because one of the things that
Speaker 1: I would say is very unique to me specifically is
Speaker 1: that I am. I do stream a lot um, but
Speaker 1: I do have that credibility as a very strong chest
Speaker 1: for one of the top one of the top of
Speaker 1: the world, Whereas there are a lot of other chest
Speaker 1: streamers who are successful, but none of them really have
Speaker 1: that sort of um, that long history of playing the game.
Speaker 1: So I think because of that, when people see me
Speaker 1: playing so much and always being so so good and winning,
Speaker 1: you know, winning almost almost all the time, when I
Speaker 1: start playing other games, or you know, I do something
Speaker 1: that looks dumb or it looks clumsy, it's I think.
Speaker 1: I think it's good for people because it kind of
Speaker 1: it puts it all in perspective that, yes, I'm really
Speaker 1: good at chuss, but you know I I can be
Speaker 1: bad at other games, not just automatically genius at everything.
Speaker 1: So a lot of what you're discussing in terms of
Speaker 1: getting ads and sponsorship, it kind of reminds me of
Speaker 1: the Instagram economy and being an influencer on that platform,
Speaker 1: and often on that platform you have to go out
Speaker 1: and sell yourself and you have to think about your
Speaker 1: particular brand, your content, what you're offering that no one
Speaker 1: else does, and which companies might see that as beneficial
Speaker 1: to them. Is it similar on Twitch and does that
Speaker 1: mean that it might take a different skill set to
Speaker 1: be commercially successful on that platform to you know, playing
Speaker 1: competitive chess in the old fashioned or traditional way, do
Speaker 1: you have to sell yourself in a particular way that
Speaker 1: that you didn't have to do in competitive chess tournaments. Well,
Speaker 1: I think, first of all, I'm very lucky because I
Speaker 1: do have an agent UM and I am represented by
Speaker 1: a United Talent agency, so I don't actually have to
Speaker 1: do the selling of myself per se UM. But most
Speaker 1: of the time what happens is like the agent will
Speaker 1: come to me and he'll ask me about you know
Speaker 1: this brand or that brand. Do you want to do
Speaker 1: sponsored streams? How do you want to promote them? Does
Speaker 1: it fit in well with what you do? And one
Speaker 1: thing is I have a lot of people who watch
Speaker 1: my stream as well because I tend not to you know, curse,
Speaker 1: I don't. I keep the language pretty pretty PG and
Speaker 1: so there are a lot of kids who watch my stream.
Speaker 1: So I am very cognizant of that in terms of
Speaker 1: in terms of sponsors that I want to be talking
Speaker 1: about representing UM now over the board. This is one
Speaker 1: thing that's very I mean, it's it's very odd to
Speaker 1: me just thinking about my whole career being being a
Speaker 1: pro chest player for for the last decade or more UM,
Speaker 1: which is that I struggled very very much to get sponsors,
Speaker 1: Like it was very difficult getting sponsors when I would
Speaker 1: go compete and play over the board tournaments, and I
Speaker 1: think again, it's because it's not something that you can
Speaker 1: directly quantify, like I can say I play this tournament
Speaker 1: and the organizers might say, well, you know, we have
Speaker 1: X amount of viewership online, but it's not it's it's
Speaker 1: I think, a lot harder of a cell. Whereas when
Speaker 1: you're stay streaming on Twitch, I can say, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I had this number of viewers, that's what I had,
Speaker 1: or I've had this number of last three days. It's
Speaker 1: right there. It's quantifiable in a way that um, I
Speaker 1: think trying to get sponsors for over the board chess isn't.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's why. Um that's also why
Speaker 1: I think chess is very well suited for being on
Speaker 1: the internet, because the whole audience or the audience is
Speaker 1: already online when they watched the over over the board
Speaker 1: tournaments as well. Magnus has been in like Perfume Adge
Speaker 1: and Calvin Kleinas and stuff, hasn't he m hmmm, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's that's one thing that's really difficult about
Speaker 1: chess is that there are certain places where it chess
Speaker 1: is really revered. It's viewed as something that's like a sport.
Speaker 1: It's like super serious. I mean people like Magnus Norway.
Speaker 1: I mean he's probably one of the five most popular
Speaker 1: people in the whole country. Um. And so in some
Speaker 1: countries it's like that. But say in the US, for example,
Speaker 1: I mean I'm I mean as a streamer. Now I'm
Speaker 1: being an influencer and being on Twitch, I think I'm
Speaker 1: much more recognizable. But prior to this boom, I mean
Speaker 1: I was essentially nobody. I mean, people knew who I
Speaker 1: was to some degree, but it wasn't something um where
Speaker 1: I was really known. And that that tends to apply
Speaker 1: to most places, um in terms of chess, But there
Speaker 1: are there are a handful places where where it's really
Speaker 1: really serious and people view it as a major sport.
Speaker 1: It's and um and so there's a lot of reverence
Speaker 1: given towards towards players and towards the game in general.
Speaker 1: Why has the US lag behind some other places in
Speaker 1: terms of making chess a big thing that people are
Speaker 1: really dedicated to? And and secondly, are there any efforts
Speaker 1: under way to try to change that? Are people actively
Speaker 1: trying to develop US chess? Rex Singfield. He's a he's
Speaker 1: a billionaire. Um he was the co founder of Dimensional
Speaker 1: Fund Advisors A E. T. S. I mean they basically
Speaker 1: et F s um he uh. He's done a law
Speaker 1: for chess, probably is starting around two thousand and ten,
Speaker 1: so so essentially the last decade or so. St. Louis
Speaker 1: started out by holding the US Championship, the US Women's Championship,
Speaker 1: in the U S Juniors Championships, so those were the
Speaker 1: championships for best players overall, the best female players and
Speaker 1: also the best junior players under the age of twenties.
Speaker 1: So they started out with holding those major events, but
Speaker 1: now they started holding tournaments for um uh, for trying
Speaker 1: to get the titles like International Master, grand Master and
Speaker 1: so forth. They I think there are programs at St.
Speaker 1: Louis University, Webster University, and I think Lyndon would also.
Speaker 1: Those are three universities in St. Louis. So there's been
Speaker 1: a big push in St. Louis, which I think is
Speaker 1: really important because a lot of times kids stopped playing
Speaker 1: the game around the time that they're about sixteen seventeen,
Speaker 1: which is normally when you have to make the decision
Speaker 1: whether you're gonna be a pro chess player or whether
Speaker 1: you're going to say, go to school and pursue a
Speaker 1: different career. And having these opportunities I think has led
Speaker 1: to a lot of junior players continuing to play the
Speaker 1: game now, and um, there there is an American player
Speaker 1: right now who's actually I think the number number two
Speaker 1: ranks player in the world under the age of I
Speaker 1: believe twenty one. So uh St Louis has been at
Speaker 1: the forefront of trying to um of trying to promote
Speaker 1: US chess specifically, and then in terms of why its
Speaker 1: chests lagged behind in the US, I would say in
Speaker 1: large part that's because after the Fisher boom in the
Speaker 1: nineties seventies, for about twenty to thirty years, the interest
Speaker 1: just waned and and kind of die. It died out.
Speaker 1: There just wasn't much interest in the game until a
Speaker 1: new generation came around. So that's that's also why when
Speaker 1: I look at this boom on on Twitch or on
Speaker 1: the internet in general, UM, I try to do as
Speaker 1: much as I can to try and push chus and
Speaker 1: promote chess because I've seen these boom to bus cycles
Speaker 1: happen at least two or three times actually in my
Speaker 1: lifetime alone. So so I try to do what I
Speaker 1: can to keep keep pushing it ahead. So my daughter
Speaker 1: is four and a half, actually she's almost five, and
Speaker 1: I'm trying to teach her chess. And I started with
Speaker 1: like rook end games, like her having two rooks against
Speaker 1: my king to see if she could check. Is that
Speaker 1: a good start? Yeah? So I I actually remember one
Speaker 1: of the first checkmates I learned was King and Queen
Speaker 1: against King. And I think the basic checkmates are really
Speaker 1: really really important. Um. You know, one thing I would
Speaker 1: say that really makes chess also unique besides you know
Speaker 1: everything else, is that you can do puzzles, like you
Speaker 1: can do these puzzles on an iPad um on your
Speaker 1: computer where you just learn these basic checkmating patterns and
Speaker 1: you can do puzzles over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: And when I think of a lot of other major
Speaker 1: E sports and a lot of games like for example, um,
Speaker 1: something you know, like like a shooter game like Call
Speaker 1: of Duty, it's it's very much in the moment, like
Speaker 1: you try to make sure you aim correct, you try
Speaker 1: to get the best um best spot when you're shooting,
Speaker 1: and so forth. But it's not something where you can
Speaker 1: replicate it or do it again in exactly the same way.
Speaker 1: It's always gonna be different and sort of the instincts
Speaker 1: or the skill on the spot. And with chess you
Speaker 1: can go back and always like reap a game, start
Speaker 1: a new game, you can do puzzles. It's just very easy,
Speaker 1: I think, to get into it. And that's why a
Speaker 1: lot of people, um are, I think, are finding it
Speaker 1: once again after not playing for a while. This was
Speaker 1: something I was wondering after watching Queen's Gambit. Actually, so
Speaker 1: a prominent part of that series for anyone who hasn't
Speaker 1: seen it yet, is this genius chess player. The main
Speaker 1: character of the story, she sort of at night sits
Speaker 1: there and thinks and envisions chess plays on on the
Speaker 1: ceiling of her bedroom, and you can see her sort
Speaker 1: of thinking through all the different permutations, the ways that
Speaker 1: the pieces could actually move on the board. How much
Speaker 1: of being a successful chess player is about memorizing those
Speaker 1: different possibilities versus I don't know if I'm gonna say
Speaker 1: this right, versus sort of actively I don't know, like
Speaker 1: trying to size up your opponent and reacting properly to
Speaker 1: your opponent. Like, how much of it is wrote memory
Speaker 1: and mathematics versus something else. I mean, I think a
Speaker 1: large part of it, I mean, up until maybe you're
Speaker 1: a grand master is very much about about like memorization
Speaker 1: of opening strategies, but also the powder recognition of seeing
Speaker 1: you know, in peace on certain squares is like in
Speaker 1: a sort of sense that there's some sort of combination
Speaker 1: of using one or two of the pieces to create
Speaker 1: a checkmate or to attack your opponents king, and so
Speaker 1: I think a large part is definitely about memorization and
Speaker 1: just pattern recognition. If if you're trying to become like
Speaker 1: grand master better. Um, but I think even if you
Speaker 1: don't have that, you can still probably get to about
Speaker 1: an expert level, which is about two thousand elo or
Speaker 1: better than probably I would say ninety percent of players
Speaker 1: in the world. So, um, you can still get to
Speaker 1: a very high level even if you don't have everything memorized,
Speaker 1: you know, or you don't have it all down super
Speaker 1: super hard. I have another coin to game big question,
Speaker 1: and this is where I thought that Tracy who was
Speaker 1: going to go at the last question, But how prevalent
Speaker 1: is the use of performance enhancing drugs in the world
Speaker 1: of top level chess and is that something tested, Like
Speaker 1: what's the deal with stuff like that? So yeah, um,
Speaker 1: I to my knowledge, I don't. I mean, I've never
Speaker 1: come across any any drugs that I think are performance enhancing. Now.
Speaker 1: I know, for quite a while the governing body Feeding
Speaker 1: they were trying very hard to get chess into the Olympics.
Speaker 1: So at the Chess Olympics, which are held every two years,
Speaker 1: they were doing drug testing. Um, I think the last
Speaker 1: like three or four then they did. But other than
Speaker 1: I think adderall and um, there's madefinitely think that that
Speaker 1: same thing. But I think there are a couple of
Speaker 1: drugs that are banned and they try to say you
Speaker 1: can't have more than three or four cups of coffee.
Speaker 1: But that's about the extent in terms of what they
Speaker 1: consider performance enhancing drugs. So No, as far as far
Speaker 1: as I know, I don't think they're there. There really are.
Speaker 1: Now maybe maybe people will prove me wrong, but it's
Speaker 1: not something that that i've that's widespread or is even known.
Speaker 1: Most players don't don't don't do drugs. Um. Is there
Speaker 1: anything else you see coming out on the horizon of
Speaker 1: the world of chess that's going to be the next
Speaker 1: big thing. So this year we had the shift to
Speaker 1: streaming and we had Queen's gambit. Is there's something else
Speaker 1: that you're keeping your eye on at the moment, Well,
Speaker 1: right now there's I mean, I think the final part
Speaker 1: of it for me that I see is UM is
Speaker 1: chest becoming sort of a bona fide East sport, and
Speaker 1: what I mean by that is having top level competitions
Speaker 1: with with you know, with some frequency like once a
Speaker 1: month or thereabouts. And actually at the moment there is
Speaker 1: what's called the Chess Champions Tour where they're holding one
Speaker 1: online tournament every month. So the first one was in November,
Speaker 1: there will be one in December, one in January, all
Speaker 1: the way out through I think October of next year.
Speaker 1: And these prized ones are very substantial. I think the
Speaker 1: first prize of the event that I just played was
Speaker 1: the thirty thousand dollars. The next one will be sixty
Speaker 1: thousand UM, so the prizes are quite large. And I
Speaker 1: think once you have these events established, you're the top
Speaker 1: players competing, UM, you'll have more sponsors involved, and I
Speaker 1: think chess can become very very big. So that's really
Speaker 1: what I'm looking forward to the most is seeing if
Speaker 1: chess can become a true e sport the way like
Speaker 1: say doughte or a league of legends have become around
Speaker 1: the world. All right, So what I play? I, As
Speaker 1: I mentioned at the beginning, I don't have much time
Speaker 1: to play. I sometimes like play in between like a
Speaker 1: meeting or something like that. I'm about fifteen hundred right now,
Speaker 1: I'm blitz. Should I if I want to like get
Speaker 1: up to say, like eighteen hundred. Should I spend more
Speaker 1: time learning openings and really like sort of like committing
Speaker 1: those two memories, Or should I spend time doing tactics puzzles? Um,
Speaker 1: if you have to pick one, I would say tactics puzzles.
Speaker 1: But I think mainly you're at a level where you
Speaker 1: should have a pretty good, um, you should have pretty
Speaker 1: good powdered recognition. So I think mainly it's just playing
Speaker 1: as much as you can. Thank you, Thank you for
Speaker 1: that endorsement of playing as much as I can. I'll
Speaker 1: keep doing that. Yeah, I mean, that's one thing that's
Speaker 1: very interesting is when they we have this term called
Speaker 1: plock chats, which featured streamers. A lot of streamers had
Speaker 1: some understanding of the game, but they they're they're pretty
Speaker 1: new to it, and so in cases like that, it's
Speaker 1: very important that they sort of do puzzles to try
Speaker 1: and get add recognition. But you're already past that stage
Speaker 1: where you're sort of a I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: intermediate ish player, and so you've already had quite a
Speaker 1: bit of experience with puzzles. So if there, it's more
Speaker 1: I think just playing as much as you can, because
Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna pick up the you're gonna see
Speaker 1: what you did wrong games much more easily than someone
Speaker 1: who's new the game. We're say, if I'm totally new
Speaker 1: and I play a game, I don't know what to
Speaker 1: look for. Once I've lost a game, I just go
Speaker 1: start the next game, but I'm not really learning anything
Speaker 1: per se. Whereas because you've played quite a bit, I
Speaker 1: think it's more likely you're gonna be able to pick
Speaker 1: up on what you did wrong. And so that's where
Speaker 1: playing a lot will really come in handy for someone
Speaker 1: like you. Well, I think on that note, uh Carlo,
Speaker 1: there is a great place to leave it. Really appreciate you,
Speaker 1: uh joining us, and I will definitely take internalize your
Speaker 1: advice to play as much as possible to improve my game. Great, well,
Speaker 1: it's great, it's great talking to you guys. Once again.
Speaker 1: We should do the we should do the charity tournament.
Speaker 1: Yeah sure, yeah that would be great. Yeah we can
Speaker 1: we can figure that out. But that that would be awesome.
Speaker 1: All right, Thanks to car. Really appreciate it, no problem.
Speaker 1: Talking to Hakara was really fun. And I think, like
Speaker 1: just anyone listening to that and anyone can see he's
Speaker 1: just like a very like easygoing, um sort of positive person.
Speaker 1: I think you could sort of understand why, in addition
Speaker 1: to be really good at chess, like why he's a
Speaker 1: popular person to watch on Twitter. Yeah, this was what
Speaker 1: I was sort of trying to get it with a
Speaker 1: few of the questions. I think it maybe does take
Speaker 1: a particular personality and a particular brand to become that
Speaker 1: successful on a streaming platform. But I have to say
Speaker 1: Karu is really nice, and I personally, as someone who
Speaker 1: doesn't play much, endorse his message of making it as
Speaker 1: accessible as possible to a wide range of people. He's
Speaker 1: really nice, And I also think that's like kind of
Speaker 1: different from the like traditional like chess master stereotype. I
Speaker 1: don't know if the chech master stereotype, but you know,
Speaker 1: you always sort of think of these sort of like
Speaker 1: dark intellectual types to like get really angry and like
Speaker 1: knock over the board when someone you know makes a
Speaker 1: wrong pawn move or something like that, And that's not
Speaker 1: his vibe at all. Um, it's certainly not how it
Speaker 1: comes off. I don't know, maybe like when he's like
Speaker 1: practicing for like true like grand master tournament play, he's
Speaker 1: more severe, But um, you know it really comes through,
Speaker 1: and I think, like you know, it lends itself to
Speaker 1: this sort of this new era of the game. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess the stakes are lower when you're you're streaming
Speaker 1: on Twitch. I suppose people get mad if you make
Speaker 1: a wrong move with a pawn, if you like mess
Speaker 1: up their game or their strategy. No, I think it's
Speaker 1: like did you ever see that movie like Searching for
Speaker 1: Bobby Fisher where it's like the teachers like teaching the
Speaker 1: kid how to play, and he's like, it's like more
Speaker 1: like the stereotype of like the stern old chess master
Speaker 1: like teaching. Remember even like the guy like in the
Speaker 1: in the show Queen's Gambit, like you know, the teacher
Speaker 1: in the basement, he took it very seriously. That's true, right,
Speaker 1: Like that kind of vibe, I think, yeah, but that
Speaker 1: is I mean, it feels like that's the vibe that
Speaker 1: we are beginning to see change slightly. You have this
Speaker 1: cultural movement in the form of Queen's Gambit, you have
Speaker 1: these new online economics and dynamics that might be reshaping
Speaker 1: the game. And speed chess or blitz chess is a
Speaker 1: pretty good example of of one way that maybe it's
Speaker 1: involving in one way that it might become more popular.
Speaker 1: And I guess Hikaro made the point that this has
Speaker 1: happened before, and we've had these boom bust cycles, but
Speaker 1: maybe this is a significant one. Yeah, hopefully and hopefully
Speaker 1: at last, because it's a pretty fun I enjoy it. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, shall we leave it there? Yeah, let's save
Speaker 1: it there. This has been another episode of the All
Speaker 1: Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on
Speaker 1: Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe wisn't Thal. You
Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart. You can
Speaker 1: follow our guest on Twitter, Hacarl Nacklemara. He's at Gmhicaru
Speaker 1: and on Twitch. He's also GM Hakaru. Definitely check him
Speaker 1: out there very fun. Follow our producer Laura Carlson at
Speaker 1: Laura M. Carlson. Follow the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesca
Speaker 1: Levie at Francesca Today, and check out all of our
Speaker 1: podcasts under the handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening to
Speaker 1: the year