Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're
Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military news and straight
Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community. Hello again, everyone,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Software Radio, Software Radio on Time, on Target.
Speaker 1: I'm your host today, Steve blast Uri. We have a
Speaker 1: very special guest joining us. He's already online with us
Speaker 1: right now. We have Mike Hayes, former commander of Sale
Speaker 1: Team two. Mike has had a tremendously experienced Unlike most
Speaker 1: of the other special operators you'll uh meet or talk to, um,
Speaker 1: Mike's done it all. I mean he was boots on
Speaker 1: the ground as a Navy seal. He's you know, uh,
Speaker 1: He's done his time in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: He's been held a gun point, threatened with execution in
Speaker 1: South America, I mean, jumped out of a building getting
Speaker 1: ready to explode. He's done so many different things. And
Speaker 1: he's also run White House situation room meetings and helped
Speaker 1: us uh negotiate a treaty. I mean, he's done it all.
Speaker 1: He's just recently written a book called Never Enough, and
Speaker 1: it was a fascinating read because there's so many different
Speaker 1: stories in there that I think will resonate with all
Speaker 1: of our listeners. But before we get into all that,
Speaker 1: we want to welcome Mike to the podcast. Mike, thank
Speaker 1: you for taking the time this morning with us. We
Speaker 1: really appreciate you, uh joining us here on softwarep Idea. Steve,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me, and thank you for this
Speaker 1: incredible mission that that you and soft rep Radio support.
Speaker 1: This is the most special community that are our nation has.
Speaker 1: We have lots of really incredible people in the soft
Speaker 1: community and nothing is nearer and dearer to my heart
Speaker 1: and the opportunity to spend time together today is is
Speaker 1: really exciting. Yeah, you know, and it's funny because reading
Speaker 1: your book and I went back through it again and
Speaker 1: I was scribbling notes all over the place. My desk
Speaker 1: is full of little scribbled notes on so many of
Speaker 1: the things that you write about. It goes straight across
Speaker 1: the soft community. It doesn't matter whether you're Army Ranger,
Speaker 1: Army green Beret, and Navy Seal, Air Force Power Rescue guys.
Speaker 1: I think you know the things that you write about
Speaker 1: and the things that were important to you and into
Speaker 1: the sale community definitely resonate with everyone. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't think there's anything in there that's strictly Oh, this
Speaker 1: is just a seal type thing. This is all of
Speaker 1: our special guys. I think, you know, it's kind of
Speaker 1: you know, all of those things that you write about
Speaker 1: I think is important to all the communities. Well, no,
Speaker 1: thank you, I Steve, I wrote never enough, because you know,
Speaker 1: and everything that I've seen and done, whether you're a military, government,
Speaker 1: three companies in the private sector, I just kept coming
Speaker 1: across the same kinds of principles that can help everyone,
Speaker 1: you know, people, organizations in the country to be better.
Speaker 1: The goals, you know, lifting up individuals and helping those
Speaker 1: individuals to lift up others, the organizations and the people
Speaker 1: in their lives and and just help all of us
Speaker 1: come together and make a better country. This same exact
Speaker 1: mission that the soft community lives and breathes. So the
Speaker 1: big thing that, like you said, is is no matter
Speaker 1: your role or your place in life, your skills and
Speaker 1: your talents, you know, I just think everybody can make
Speaker 1: such a difference. I'll tell you, you you know, my STEAL
Speaker 1: training class start just like like most started with a
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty guys and nineteen graduated. And the truth
Speaker 1: is like when you finished STEAL training. When you're twenty
Speaker 1: one or nineteen or whatever you are, you feel really
Speaker 1: like the extremely special, and you are. But the thing is,
Speaker 1: we're no more special than many many people across the
Speaker 1: soft in the greater d D community. And I think
Speaker 1: the faster that we learned that that really it's one
Speaker 1: team in one community. The faster our trajectory to success. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny because again, reading some of
Speaker 1: your stories, you know, I can draw some parallels when
Speaker 1: you talk about being miserable and and then one of
Speaker 1: the guys in your class just burst out laughing, and
Speaker 1: it resonated through the entire you know, budget class that
Speaker 1: you were in. I remember much of the same thing.
Speaker 1: What we used to call the sawdust pit and used
Speaker 1: to fill water. The same thing happened in our class.
Speaker 1: They were trying to make us miserable, and one guy
Speaker 1: starts laughing uncontrollably, and the next thing, you know, we're
Speaker 1: all laughing, and uh, you know, it's just it's it's
Speaker 1: some of those things that you know you re you
Speaker 1: forgot about. But then as I'm reading the book, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh man, that strikes a nerve. I remember
Speaker 1: doing that same thing myself. So well that was Yeah. Sorry, sorry, Steve,
Speaker 1: you keep going. Sorry, No, I'm good, Go ahead. I
Speaker 1: was just gonna say, it is all about laughter, right.
Speaker 1: Our job is so darned serious that that the most
Speaker 1: fun podcast would probably be getting a bunch of people
Speaker 1: on here and talking about the best practical jokes that
Speaker 1: they've ever played. That would be massively entertaining. Uh you know,
Speaker 1: you do? You do talk about? The two people that
Speaker 1: I wrote about actually in my book are two classmates
Speaker 1: from buds in different situations that that made us laugh.
Speaker 1: You know. One of them was my first roommate in
Speaker 1: the Seal Teams, Commander Joe Price, a fabulous human being
Speaker 1: who commanded the seal team behind me and then took
Speaker 1: his own life overseas, you know, actually in the bed
Speaker 1: that I slept in the previous ten months over in
Speaker 1: Aryan Cout, Afghanistan. Terribly tragic and difficult story. It's a
Speaker 1: still a story that many people on here know about
Speaker 1: from both both personally and situationally. With we we all
Speaker 1: know people who struggle and and then the other side
Speaker 1: of that coin. One of the other people who made
Speaker 1: us laugh uncontrollably was my swim buddy from Seal Training.
Speaker 1: Chris Cassidy, who later became an astronaut as a is
Speaker 1: a superhuman being and a super friend and and just wonderful,
Speaker 1: both wonderful individuals. Yeah, and that's uh, that's what makes
Speaker 1: the classes go. I mean, we had, you know, dating
Speaker 1: myself back when I went through SF training. We had
Speaker 1: a guy when we were doing our land navigation training,
Speaker 1: which is a big part of SF and it it's
Speaker 1: where a lot of guys fall by the wayside. So
Speaker 1: we're out there, it's really hot, and this guy puts
Speaker 1: a poncho over his head, gots two eye holes out,
Speaker 1: and runs button naked through the woods before we get
Speaker 1: ready to start, and he's calling himself Captain Camouflage that
Speaker 1: he's going to guide everyone to their point. And our
Speaker 1: whole class just racked up laughing. We're literally rolling on
Speaker 1: the ground. Our instructors were just like, you know, usually there,
Speaker 1: you know, no nonsense. You know, it's the same thing
Speaker 1: as bud Strain. They're they're you know, they're they're cracking
Speaker 1: on you the whole time. And these guys just couldn't
Speaker 1: keep a straight face. They're like that guy ain't wired right,
Speaker 1: But you know, you need that kind of guy and
Speaker 1: that you know in your class, and I think it
Speaker 1: took a lot of the stress away from people because
Speaker 1: he did that. And then you know, we got ready,
Speaker 1: we went out and we had a lot of guys
Speaker 1: passed the first time, which doesn't usually happen in SEP training.
Speaker 1: So you know, you need that. I think people don't
Speaker 1: realize that aren't in the military community. That's sometimes humor
Speaker 1: is a huge weapon on your side. Well it's I
Speaker 1: couldn't agree more. And you know, that wonderful human Joe
Speaker 1: Price had this infectious laughter and I'll never forget in
Speaker 1: steel training, he and I were both pull up challenged,
Speaker 1: you know, buds, just like every challenging you know, course
Speaker 1: Q course, ranger school, etcetera. While I haven't been through those,
Speaker 1: I certainly know there's a lot of suffering and misery
Speaker 1: and all of the foundational training classes. But I remember
Speaker 1: on a Saturday job and I went to do pull
Speaker 1: ups just to try to get better at them. I'm
Speaker 1: six and definitely far from God's gift to the pull
Speaker 1: up bar, but I remember being on pull up like
Speaker 1: number one and a half or two and struggling already
Speaker 1: and just looking across at job, and he was already
Speaker 1: laughing at me because I was so bad, and it
Speaker 1: was just like, how how can you ever really worry
Speaker 1: about not being able to do that many pull ups
Speaker 1: when you just have somebody laughing that infectiously. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's funny because again, you know, reading that about
Speaker 1: the pull ups if I after my military career, I
Speaker 1: was working as a security guy on a on a
Speaker 1: Hollywood film and uh, you know there was some British
Speaker 1: row Marine commandos who were working for you know, bodyguard
Speaker 1: for some of the stars and and and s a
Speaker 1: S type guys, and we were all talking one day
Speaker 1: at lunch and the star of the film that dame,
Speaker 1: and we were talking to him and we were all
Speaker 1: talking about all the pull ups we have to do
Speaker 1: because the bridge was the same as we are. So
Speaker 1: Matt was like, how many pull ups you guys have
Speaker 1: to do? So we had a pull up bar behind
Speaker 1: his trailer on the set and he was up there
Speaker 1: and he was actually in really good shape. He was
Speaker 1: knocking him out and then one of the bridge that
Speaker 1: you know, you're making some really nice faces there, Matt.
Speaker 1: You ever think about branching out into porn? And that's
Speaker 1: when he almost broke his jaw jaw at the bar,
Speaker 1: you know, and again reading the book, but that's what
Speaker 1: you know, immediately came to mind. So well, anyway, it
Speaker 1: looks like a metaphor for for larger, for life beyond training,
Speaker 1: and in just life more broadly, right, it's whether it's
Speaker 1: the pull up bar, the obstacle course, or or the misery,
Speaker 1: it's just how do you learn how to stretch yourself
Speaker 1: beyond your limits and then most importantly, not just make
Speaker 1: your limits, uh, you know aren't more capable, but but
Speaker 1: to learn how to live at that, at that edge
Speaker 1: and that in that uncomfortable zone if you will, and
Speaker 1: and be able to remain calm and logical and still
Speaker 1: influence and inspire and make solid decision making. And and
Speaker 1: so I just think that, you know, I joke around
Speaker 1: the L and seal stands for lazy, um, you know
Speaker 1: do we We we find by definition sometimes the easiest
Speaker 1: way to go do things, not because we're our DNA
Speaker 1: is cutting corners, but because our DNA is thinking about
Speaker 1: how do we preserve energy for the next thing that
Speaker 1: we're gonna need to go do. And I think that
Speaker 1: there are so many lessons that that really end up
Speaker 1: carrying over to all of all of life. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And that was you know, that segues perfect into into
Speaker 1: the book itself, because you know, part of what special
Speaker 1: Operations does and you talked about it in the Navy
Speaker 1: Seals it takes guys farther than they ever thought they
Speaker 1: could go, and you talk about that in the book,
Speaker 1: and I thought that was a very important piece of
Speaker 1: it because it I think that carries into the civilian world.
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't realize their true potential because
Speaker 1: they used to operating in a comfortable environment. And and
Speaker 1: the way you worded this in the book I thought
Speaker 1: was very important. Can you fill our listeners in a
Speaker 1: little bit about that and and taking you know, candidates wherever,
Speaker 1: being in the seals or you know, in the civilian world,
Speaker 1: and taking them past that comfort zone. Yeah. Absolutely. I
Speaker 1: think it is, like I was saying a little bit
Speaker 1: a couple of minutes ago, is really the foundational metaphor
Speaker 1: for life. It's um It's how you how you stay
Speaker 1: grounded and and able to influence other people when you
Speaker 1: get uncomfortable. And we do that obviously in training situations
Speaker 1: as best we can, so that you know, everybody who's
Speaker 1: many of your listeners have been through you know, ranger school,
Speaker 1: Q course, etcetera, etcetera, and and and and and all
Speaker 1: of us, I guarantee have experienced harder situations in real
Speaker 1: life than we did in training. But a lot of
Speaker 1: that confidence comes from being stretched earlier in life and
Speaker 1: in knowing that you're going to see different situations. It's
Speaker 1: it's kind of like in planning. You know a lot
Speaker 1: of us they say, oh, well, you know, we never
Speaker 1: the never end up surviving. You know, a good plan
Speaker 1: never survives first contact with the enemy. But you know,
Speaker 1: in the soft community, we're already a step ahead of
Speaker 1: that because we're already planning for the plan to change.
Speaker 1: You know, in the civilian world, I hear a lot
Speaker 1: of you know, banks and technology organizations, etcetera, say, well,
Speaker 1: we have a playbook for that. You know, when when
Speaker 1: X happens, we know that we're gonna go do why
Speaker 1: in One of the concepts that I think is really
Speaker 1: important is agility, Steve. It's it's understanding that you can't
Speaker 1: go right a hundred or a thousand playbooks for all
Speaker 1: the situations that are gonna come at us. And so
Speaker 1: what's important is just have that one meta playbook, which
Speaker 1: is really just a playbook on how to create the
Speaker 1: playbook that you need in the moment. That's what the
Speaker 1: OFF community really knows how to do. It's work backward. First,
Speaker 1: defying an outcome you want to achieve, right, and then
Speaker 1: you think about that's that's kind of like vision where
Speaker 1: you're going. And then you get into the strategy. We've
Speaker 1: got ten or a hundred different ways that we could
Speaker 1: go achieve the aforementioned outcome. How do you identify the
Speaker 1: all of the risk associated with those different paths to
Speaker 1: achieve that outcome and then pick the most risk adjusted
Speaker 1: paths so that you don't take unnecessary risk and put
Speaker 1: our our people in situations that they don't have to
Speaker 1: be in order to achieve the outcome. And then you
Speaker 1: go execute. But then Steve, to me, the most important
Speaker 1: thing is how do you reassess that vision, that strategy,
Speaker 1: and that execution constantly. One more sentence on this. When
Speaker 1: I was growing up, I came into the seals in
Speaker 1: you know, long before nine eleven, you know there, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there were some older warrant officers and master chiefs and
Speaker 1: experienced folks that had lessons from the past, but there
Speaker 1: wasn't that much combat experience relative to what there was
Speaker 1: increasingly post nine eleven in the Seals. When I came in,
Speaker 1: it was very much you get the mission done at
Speaker 1: all costs. But then, you know, pretty early on in
Speaker 1: the war, the entire soft community figured out that sometimes
Speaker 1: the right thing to do is to take that new information,
Speaker 1: work it back into the system, and say, hey, you
Speaker 1: know what tonight at given this new information, we actually
Speaker 1: don't need to go hit this target. We can back
Speaker 1: off and wait for another time and up and demonstrate patients.
Speaker 1: And and that's the maturity that I think really came
Speaker 1: through a lot of the post nine eleven combat era. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know again, the book is fulfilled with
Speaker 1: you know, examples of this, and and I encourage all
Speaker 1: of our listeners to check it out. It's called Never Enough.
Speaker 1: And also you have an audio book as part of
Speaker 1: this as well, right I do. I recorded it myself too.
Speaker 1: It wasn't one of the big questions like do you
Speaker 1: want a professional to go read read this for you
Speaker 1: or do you want to do it yourself? And you know,
Speaker 1: tell you a friend of mine, Jason Redman, has a
Speaker 1: couple of books out Jason. Jay Redmond was in uh
Speaker 1: in a task unit with me in Iraq when when
Speaker 1: he was a guy who was shot on mission in
Speaker 1: two thousand seven in Karma, Iraq and multi shot multiple times.
Speaker 1: Wonderful too, wonderful books and Overcome and the Trident, And
Speaker 1: you know, I sat. I was on one of my
Speaker 1: high falutin business trips. I was going from New York
Speaker 1: to Zurich. You know, sitting in first class. The stewardess
Speaker 1: comes by, and you know, the big decision is champagne
Speaker 1: or orange juice, And you know, I had my headphones
Speaker 1: on and I heard Jay start recounting his story, which
Speaker 1: of course I know intimately I've heard it a million times,
Speaker 1: but sitting like having a little bit of time passed
Speaker 1: between now and then, I just sat in first class
Speaker 1: with tears streaming down my face and inexplicably like and
Speaker 1: I just was. It was just so powerful to hear
Speaker 1: his voice re telling that story and what was going
Speaker 1: through his mind and when he was when he got shot,
Speaker 1: and and what was happening with his teammate, and and
Speaker 1: I thought to myself about the bonds that we had
Speaker 1: and what it is that makes somebody move forward in
Speaker 1: a gunfight. I wrote two silver stars for that that operation,
Speaker 1: and both individuals received them. And there was a lot
Speaker 1: of of difficulty and a lot of heroism on that
Speaker 1: particular night, just like there were many many different nights
Speaker 1: and anyways, the point I was trying to make is
Speaker 1: that the power of reading and listening to your own
Speaker 1: words and work I thought was incredible with j and
Speaker 1: that's what inspired me actually to read my own book.
Speaker 1: How difficult was that to to record the audio book?
Speaker 1: I mean, I know myself, I would have to do
Speaker 1: it a hundred times before I got it right. Um,
Speaker 1: But how difficult was that? I mean, I know it's
Speaker 1: your own words, but to you know, to read the
Speaker 1: book without any you know, alibis, I guess it would
Speaker 1: be well, yeah, first of all, don't give me too
Speaker 1: much credit because there was a lot of rewinding, so
Speaker 1: there are plenty of alibis. The uh, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's funny. I I have a place on a late
Speaker 1: up in New Hampshire. I went up where it was
Speaker 1: totally quiet. And then the funny is the first thing
Speaker 1: is figuring out how do you set up all this
Speaker 1: home equipment in order to get it to work. I've
Speaker 1: got one of those e foils by lift you know,
Speaker 1: it's you get it's an electric surfboard basically great fun.
Speaker 1: But it was the only thing I had that that
Speaker 1: I could actually balance the microphone on. So if you
Speaker 1: would have seen a picture of the home setup that
Speaker 1: I had recording the thing, you would think I was
Speaker 1: a complete junior varsity at best. And um, you know,
Speaker 1: but but when it actually came to the recording, look
Speaker 1: at two things. Number one is it was harder in
Speaker 1: the beginning because you get in the flow. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like when you haven't been diving or jumping or
Speaker 1: shooting for for a little bit of a bit, and
Speaker 1: you you know, you just get back at that trade
Speaker 1: or that that trade that you know, look the first
Speaker 1: few minutes or something, or the first two hours or
Speaker 1: whatever it is, you're kind of getting back into the
Speaker 1: swing of things. It took me probably a good hour
Speaker 1: or two to really get into the flow. And um,
Speaker 1: and then I'll be honest, I what I struggled with
Speaker 1: with the book was how open to be? You know,
Speaker 1: I didn't write a I never I'm not a person
Speaker 1: that seeks any sort of limelight. I really really uh
Speaker 1: really enjoy seeing others be successful. And so I really
Speaker 1: struggled with whether with how to how to reconcile a
Speaker 1: being passionate about sharing things that I've learned and then
Speaker 1: be kind of not seeking a limelight and and those
Speaker 1: are really irreconcilable. You have to prioritize one or the
Speaker 1: over the other. And it took me a while to
Speaker 1: finally say, you know, I'm gonna share what I've learned.
Speaker 1: So I also decided that I would open up about
Speaker 1: a few different things in the book, different stories or
Speaker 1: different thoughts, whether it was you know, some you know,
Speaker 1: waking up way too many or more early on a
Speaker 1: few on mornings where I'm thinking about, you know, dozens
Speaker 1: of friends that I've buried or or or things that
Speaker 1: I could have done that maybe could have saved different
Speaker 1: people from from from from that fate, or or just
Speaker 1: more that I could be doing and um, and so anyways,
Speaker 1: I just really I really ultimately hit a few spots
Speaker 1: in the book where it was a little bit hard
Speaker 1: to read as well, and because I wrote the words,
Speaker 1: but when you actually read them out loud, it's it's um,
Speaker 1: it's both fun and difficult. Absolutely and you know it's
Speaker 1: it's amazing. Um again, you know, hats off to you
Speaker 1: because writing a book is not an easy thing and
Speaker 1: uh and then doing it audio recording. And by the way,
Speaker 1: your publisher did send me that picture with your surfboard,
Speaker 1: so I did see that because I was like, is
Speaker 1: that a surfboard? Because he said make sure you ask
Speaker 1: Mike about you know, his recording of this. Oh that's
Speaker 1: that funny. I didn't. I didn't know that was part
Speaker 1: of the prep material. Yeah, because he sent me a
Speaker 1: picture of that, and I was like, that's the same
Speaker 1: thing you just said. I mean, I was like, what
Speaker 1: in the hell is that? Is that a surfboard? He
Speaker 1: has his uh microphone on. But now now we know,
Speaker 1: so that's uh, that's amazing. But yeah, when you talk,
Speaker 1: when you talk in your book about leadership, and I
Speaker 1: think that's like, this is the I think the most
Speaker 1: interesting part of it. One of the quotes you had
Speaker 1: about from George Washington was one that I had never
Speaker 1: seen before. And I'm an avid reader of history, and
Speaker 1: when you talk about leadership and it comes with discipline
Speaker 1: and and the George Washington quote, I'm going to read
Speaker 1: it here because I have never heard this one, and
Speaker 1: I think it goes right to the corruxi of everything.
Speaker 1: Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small
Speaker 1: numbers formidable, It procures success to the weak and esteem
Speaker 1: to all. And I think that hits it right on
Speaker 1: the head, because you know, when when you're talking about
Speaker 1: special operations, people we're dealing with small numbers are guys,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if I listeners are. I'm sure
Speaker 1: most of them are, but some of them may not
Speaker 1: be aware that when our guys go into combat and
Speaker 1: today world, they're almost always out numbered. And you know,
Speaker 1: the two things that separate us from our adversaries is
Speaker 1: we have the discipline and leadership that allows our guys
Speaker 1: to be successful. So, you know, getting into the leadership
Speaker 1: part of it, I thought it was a really uh
Speaker 1: best part of the book as far as I was concerned.
Speaker 1: And and and then again it carries forward and you
Speaker 1: talked about leaders learn authority by giving it away, And
Speaker 1: could you explain that to our listeners a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'd love to Steve before I do, if I could
Speaker 1: just make one more point on the why I wrote
Speaker 1: the book just to bring to work for the for
Speaker 1: the for the group. Look, I would never profit. I
Speaker 1: just couldn't profit on something that that I was bringing
Speaker 1: to the world based on my my own past in
Speaker 1: the Seals. And so one of the things I also
Speaker 1: did was started a five oh one c three nonprofit
Speaker 1: organization that very quietly and confidentially pays off mortgages for
Speaker 1: gold Stars Soft families. And so I'm in the process
Speaker 1: of of paying off of my fifth, our fifth mortgage
Speaker 1: with both help for me and help from a few
Speaker 1: really generous friends, just trying to quietly make positive impact
Speaker 1: in the world. You know, the name of the organization
Speaker 1: is the eleven and sixty two Foundation, which, as people know,
Speaker 1: is the date that Kennedy started both the Seals and
Speaker 1: the Green Berets. And the the only thing you'll find
Speaker 1: if you do some really deep Google searching is very
Speaker 1: deep in one corner of the I r SS website,
Speaker 1: you'll see our our attack, our official paperwork. But the
Speaker 1: reason that I did that was because all the all
Speaker 1: my profits from this book are going to that five
Speaker 1: oh one c three And that's why for me, writing
Speaker 1: this book is a mission. This isn't just like get
Speaker 1: get them, get the book out there, get the lessons
Speaker 1: out there. It's I'm trying to create really one of
Speaker 1: those win win win type of situations, and that's why
Speaker 1: I'm really passionate about trying to get this out there,
Speaker 1: raise awareness, and get the support for the not just
Speaker 1: the book, but for the community rit large. Um. So
Speaker 1: thanks for letting me work that in. UM, I'll give
Speaker 1: you a second if you have any questions or anything
Speaker 1: on that, and then I'll come back to your leadership question. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: if any of our listeners would like to or readers
Speaker 1: from software would like to, uh donate to this foundation,
Speaker 1: is there a website they can go on? You know, Steve,
Speaker 1: there's not. I don't have a website. I don't take
Speaker 1: pictures after we do nice things for people and put
Speaker 1: it up on a website. I just quietly help. So
Speaker 1: I think that if somebody did want to help, the
Speaker 1: best thing to do would be proliferate the book, help
Speaker 1: get the book out there, help get the word out there.
Speaker 1: But if somebody really is passionate about about helping, then
Speaker 1: you can hit me up on LinkedIn and send me
Speaker 1: a message. Absolutely so, and I encourage all of our
Speaker 1: listeners to do that. Well. Thank you. Now back to
Speaker 1: the Washington quote and leadership, I also think that that's
Speaker 1: very true and moving. Look, discipline is what this community
Speaker 1: is all about, right, It's it starts from you know,
Speaker 1: setting your alarm clock in the morning and make and
Speaker 1: getting out of bed before you normally would have if
Speaker 1: you didn't set that alarm. How do you lean into
Speaker 1: things that are are not your first choice to go
Speaker 1: do and put others before self. That's what That's what
Speaker 1: this community is all about. And so the word discipline
Speaker 1: can mean so many things because on its face you
Speaker 1: could think, oh, well, somebody did something wrong and they
Speaker 1: get disciplined. Well, yeah, true. However, Comma, I really think
Speaker 1: of that quote with Washington is the very holistic and
Speaker 1: broadest interpretation of the world the word discipline and what
Speaker 1: does that mean? And then you know, yeah, the soft community,
Speaker 1: sure we're outnumbered sometimes, but but I also like to
Speaker 1: say that our job is to never fight fair. How
Speaker 1: do we make sure that in the mission planning process
Speaker 1: we are stacking the deck in our favor? Of course,
Speaker 1: most of us worked. We we do better at night,
Speaker 1: We do better with lasers and technology and all of
Speaker 1: these different things that we have not just to mitigate risk,
Speaker 1: but to make us overwhelm the situation so that we
Speaker 1: can make great decisions and again not have to expose
Speaker 1: our people to the unnecessary risk and find that that
Speaker 1: easiest best path to to drive, to drive towards the outcome.
Speaker 1: And and you know when you talk about leadership and
Speaker 1: now now you're carrying it into the civilian world, as
Speaker 1: you said, you're you know, involved with different companies. You know,
Speaker 1: what's the benefit I know civilians will ask, you know,
Speaker 1: what's the benefit of corporation? Can glean from the lessons learned?
Speaker 1: You know that you know from your service or anyone's
Speaker 1: service in that band great question. The most important thing
Speaker 1: for military service is to understand how to abstract out
Speaker 1: what you're actually doing. You know, when we finish these
Speaker 1: operations that seem like they could have been the front
Speaker 1: page of a newspaper, we don't spend all any time
Speaker 1: talking about what went well. As this community is very
Speaker 1: well we talked about, we spend our time on what
Speaker 1: didn't go well because that's where the highest return on
Speaker 1: the investment of our time is. And so within that
Speaker 1: which is also discipline, right, because you can spend you know,
Speaker 1: your time talking about what didn't go well and at
Speaker 1: the same time be really really awesome. And so how
Speaker 1: do you keep people from conflating how we do overall
Speaker 1: with with the time that we're talking about potential improvement.
Speaker 1: So I think that what's important is to abstract out.
Speaker 1: What I like to say is how we think. I
Speaker 1: like to help people think. Leaders who teach people how
Speaker 1: to think, not what to think. And so when we're
Speaker 1: coming off that operation, in that debrief or hot wash
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know, whatever we call it, you know,
Speaker 1: we could have a conversation that sounds like, hey, dummy,
Speaker 1: you came out of the building and you turn left,
Speaker 1: you know, and and then you should have turned right. Well,
Speaker 1: that that's not that helpful of a conversation. What you
Speaker 1: really want to do is say, hey, when you came
Speaker 1: out of the building and you turn left, what is
Speaker 1: it that you were seeing? What is it that you
Speaker 1: were thinking that made you turn left? Because you know
Speaker 1: that that's set up in that whether it's some remote
Speaker 1: village or in training or wherever, no two operations are
Speaker 1: going to be identical. So what we need to do
Speaker 1: is help people understand the principles around why they turned left.
Speaker 1: In other words, the how they think and and so
Speaker 1: then what you can do if you have that conversation
Speaker 1: at the level of the deeper why, now that's going
Speaker 1: to be replicable to the next operation, and the operation
Speaker 1: after that, and the operation after that, and to the
Speaker 1: all of the people in the room, because then everybody.
Speaker 1: When when people spend their mental energy on thinking about
Speaker 1: the how instead of the what, that's where you make
Speaker 1: the greatest progress. So those those types of of abstractions
Speaker 1: are what also part of me would also carry over
Speaker 1: into the civilian world. Like I'm no longer making decisions
Speaker 1: on on whether to clear a five pound jd M
Speaker 1: to be dropped. I'm making decisions around you know, do
Speaker 1: we do a large deal at what price? Or do
Speaker 1: we hire this person? You know, what's our strategy, how
Speaker 1: are we going to organize, what are we gonna spend
Speaker 1: our time on? But these are all the exact same
Speaker 1: decisions in the private sector, just that take a little
Speaker 1: bit different former fashion, but fundamentally it's all the same.
Speaker 1: It's like I said, and that when I opened up
Speaker 1: on why I wrote the book, it's because across the
Speaker 1: military and the government and the private sector, there is
Speaker 1: way way way more in common than there is different yeah.
Speaker 1: And you know, when you're talking about leadership, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people have misconceptions about the civilian world.
Speaker 1: But it still starts and ends with the people that
Speaker 1: you surround yourself with, isn't it. Absolutely? And also recognizing
Speaker 1: that we're all a little bit different because we all
Speaker 1: have different skills and abilities and interests, and that's that's
Speaker 1: what makes us great. The last thing that we want
Speaker 1: is a group of exact same uh, you know, attributes
Speaker 1: in a room. We want to be able to draw
Speaker 1: on the people who have different skills and and uh inabilities.
Speaker 1: So with that, that's what that's what ultimately makes us stronger.
Speaker 1: And so with that, you think about decision making, and
Speaker 1: you know, you want to surround yourself with people who
Speaker 1: can see in your blind spots and have a culture
Speaker 1: that where people feel comfortable raising up and saying, hey, boss,
Speaker 1: you know, I think you're missing something, and then you
Speaker 1: can have that conversation and say, oh, you know what,
Speaker 1: I either am or I'm not, but let's talk about that.
Speaker 1: And and that's and that's how you make sure that
Speaker 1: you're Like when you're trading markets, if you're about to
Speaker 1: put a million or a hundred million or a billion
Speaker 1: dollar trade on then you know, what do you do?
Speaker 1: You want to make sure that you're not missing something. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: that's no different than you know, the standing up in
Speaker 1: in terran cout Afghanistan when a twenty one year old
Speaker 1: seal says, he says to his troop commander, hey, boss,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we're there's a better way to
Speaker 1: do this. Absolutely, you want that information. So how do
Speaker 1: you surface those signals that have to be considered so
Speaker 1: that you don't make a bad decision? Yeah, and that
Speaker 1: that's one of the you know, I think one of
Speaker 1: the interesting things that about special ops across the board
Speaker 1: is that, you know, there's a lot more open dialogue,
Speaker 1: I think than the rest of the military because even
Speaker 1: though some like you said, a guy on his first mission, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, he might not have the experience that you know,
Speaker 1: his his his leaders might have, but he still has
Speaker 1: the intelligence to be able to say, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: I just saw something that maybe we should take a
Speaker 1: look at. And guys will listen to that. And I
Speaker 1: think that's, um, that's one of the tenants of special ops.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, people come first, and I think
Speaker 1: one of the hardest things is getting people in the
Speaker 1: civilian world, I should say, because I've I've had experience
Speaker 1: in that since I've been out. Is how to get
Speaker 1: people to buy in and how to get people to follow.
Speaker 1: And I think that's part of what your book talks about.
Speaker 1: It does and and so staying with that theme, it's
Speaker 1: thinking about the intersection of a couple of things. When
Speaker 1: I hire people. What I like to talk about our
Speaker 1: three circles. It's what gives you energy, It's what are
Speaker 1: you good at? And what does the business need? The
Speaker 1: only acceptable solution is the solution that threads the middle
Speaker 1: of all three of those circles. If we're if you
Speaker 1: go get a job something that you're good at but
Speaker 1: doesn't give you energy, and it is what the business needs,
Speaker 1: it's it's gonna it's not gonna work over the long run.
Speaker 1: And so part of it is helping tease out what
Speaker 1: gives people the passion, the energy on how they're gonna
Speaker 1: gonna contribute to the world. You know, I've I've helped
Speaker 1: a lot of transitioning people from from government from d
Speaker 1: O D. And a common theme that I hear is, hey,
Speaker 1: I just want to be in a special organization that
Speaker 1: continues to have mission and meaning you know, like absolutely,
Speaker 1: and at the same time that's not good enough of
Speaker 1: a statement to transact on. It's it's it's true and insufficient.
Speaker 1: And so the thing is, how do you help people
Speaker 1: tease out what they're looking for? And I think there
Speaker 1: are really, at the essence, really just three types of
Speaker 1: roles in the private sector. There's you know, say an investor,
Speaker 1: people who you take money from from other sources and
Speaker 1: invest it to make other money. There's advisors, you know,
Speaker 1: people who who who teach and tell people how to
Speaker 1: do a job better. And then there's operators. And I
Speaker 1: don't mean operator in the classic soft operator definition. I
Speaker 1: mean operator as in you're going to operate a part
Speaker 1: of a business or a part of a business and
Speaker 1: kind of a line function, if you will, not a
Speaker 1: staff function. And so you know, if you and then
Speaker 1: from their understanding, how to map into what you like
Speaker 1: Like for example, a CEO in an organization is like
Speaker 1: the three you know, a Chief strategy officer is like
Speaker 1: the five, A c I O is like the six
Speaker 1: you know, And so how do you connect like and
Speaker 1: I could go on and on, but how do you
Speaker 1: figure out what you want to be in a civilian
Speaker 1: organization is um It takes experience to understand them mapping.
Speaker 1: And that's where it's it's no fault of anybody who's
Speaker 1: spent twenty year, thirty or or less years in service.
Speaker 1: We don't get we don't get the reps in the
Speaker 1: gym in order to say, well, gosh, how do I map?
Speaker 1: And that's where there are some really great uh five
Speaker 1: and one C three's and in organizations that will help
Speaker 1: people map what the what their abilities and interests are
Speaker 1: into the needs of a business. But I think from
Speaker 1: the receiving end, it's also on people like me to
Speaker 1: help other key business leaders and people in in an
Speaker 1: organization too, to be able to connect the gods and
Speaker 1: not just look at somebody as uh some sort of
Speaker 1: a you know, a jumper or a diver or a shooter,
Speaker 1: but like to say, how do you how do you
Speaker 1: look at the fundamental skills and abilities that people have.
Speaker 1: And that's a big part of you know, uh what
Speaker 1: what our soft community, you know, their concerns are is
Speaker 1: that transition, you know, how they transition once they get out,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's a big change and we've all
Speaker 1: gone through it and after you've been in the military
Speaker 1: for a long time. There's that I know everyone has
Speaker 1: that because there's that unknown how am I going to
Speaker 1: fit in the civilian community? And I think, uh, you
Speaker 1: know what you talk about in the book helps that.
Speaker 1: I think a great deal. Well, can I share something
Speaker 1: that's not in the book, Steve, I think this is
Speaker 1: for Look, a lot of the audience is not transitioning
Speaker 1: today or this year the but this is something to
Speaker 1: think about for whenever someone is transitioning. It's a matter
Speaker 1: of identifying the buckets of of interests that one has.
Speaker 1: And so on your long runs or for some people's
Speaker 1: slow walks, that's a joke. The you think about what's
Speaker 1: important to you, it's that at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: there will probably met ten to fifteen things that are
Speaker 1: important to all of us. It's some combination of compensation, geography,
Speaker 1: quality of life, size of an organization, the sector that
Speaker 1: an organization is in, the type of role I don't know,
Speaker 1: making these opportunity for education. And if we listed out
Speaker 1: maybe three year seven more things, we'd capture mostly everything.
Speaker 1: I'd encourage people to write down, what is what are
Speaker 1: those those things in front of in front of you?
Speaker 1: That that seem most important to you, and then how
Speaker 1: do you translate that into a little bit of a
Speaker 1: you know, three to seven sentence elevator pitch on on
Speaker 1: what you're looking for. What I've seen happen way too
Speaker 1: often is that people who are getting out here have
Speaker 1: a bottoms up approach to figuring out what they want
Speaker 1: to do. Said differently, it's hey, I know a person
Speaker 1: who has an organization that needs to hire somebody, and
Speaker 1: so that sounds interesting to me. Well like, okay, maybe
Speaker 1: maybe that's the best thing. But I would highly highly
Speaker 1: recommend a simultaneous top down approach that that I previously
Speaker 1: described about thinking about what are the key attributes that
Speaker 1: you're looking for. You know, you're it's just like buying
Speaker 1: or renting a house. We're never going to get the
Speaker 1: perfect house, but at least we know what we're looking for,
Speaker 1: and then there will be a couple of things, you know,
Speaker 1: long school district or or a bedroom too small or
Speaker 1: has a pool or doesn't have a pool, or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. We're not going to get the perfect house.
Speaker 1: And that's gonna be the same way with a job.
Speaker 1: But if you do the thinking ahead of time about
Speaker 1: what you want in the abstract. Now you've got your
Speaker 1: map for what you're looking for, and then as opportunities arise,
Speaker 1: you can take the opportunity in front of you and
Speaker 1: dif that take the difference from what's in front of
Speaker 1: you to your map, and then think about, uh, is
Speaker 1: it something that you want to take off the shelf
Speaker 1: and put in your shopping carton and go and go
Speaker 1: home with you know, And maybe it's a yes, maybe
Speaker 1: it's a no. But that's the really important thing is
Speaker 1: to think ahead about how the fit is and it
Speaker 1: and it. It takes a little bit of that reflective
Speaker 1: thinking about what really gives you the energy? What are
Speaker 1: you really good at? What are those types of things?
Speaker 1: A great points. I'm gonna switch gears a little bit. Um.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, you know, as a you know,
Speaker 1: young young man joining the Navy for the very first time,
Speaker 1: did you ever, in your wildest dreams foresee yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: U negotiating a treaty from the White House, Steve. There's
Speaker 1: most of my life that I never would have predicted
Speaker 1: an age eighteen or twenty one. You know, I never
Speaker 1: I never aspired to, uh, to really even serve in
Speaker 1: combat frankly, I I what for me? The Seals were
Speaker 1: just the hardest choice in front of me, I will say.
Speaker 1: As a freshman at holy Cross College in you know,
Speaker 1: I went to memorial service for a guy named John Connors,
Speaker 1: who was a Lieutenant j G. Seal killed in Panama,
Speaker 1: who was a holy Cross r OTC alum. And I
Speaker 1: got to see the specialness of a community come together
Speaker 1: and celebrate John's life. I didn't I never personally met John.
Speaker 1: He was four, I guess four or five, five years
Speaker 1: older than I was. But uh, you know, that made
Speaker 1: a real big mark on me. And the other thing
Speaker 1: that made a mark on me was my grandfather who
Speaker 1: was at Pearl Harbor on December seven forty one, and
Speaker 1: he was he was actually like like a good Irish Catholic,
Speaker 1: was hungover on Sunday morning, seven seven. Junior officers in
Speaker 1: some bungalow with him, and he heard the first wave
Speaker 1: and said, hey, let's we gotta get in this jeep
Speaker 1: and get into get into workfellows. Nobody would go with him.
Speaker 1: He jumped into a jeep commandeered and he said the
Speaker 1: scariest thing of Pearl Harbor was actually driving by the
Speaker 1: marine gate guard at like forty miles an hour without stopping.
Speaker 1: He got onto his ship and was manning his battle
Speaker 1: station for the third wave. And you know, he was
Speaker 1: on the USS Maryland which was partially sunk, and then
Speaker 1: went to eight to flight school, became a a an aviator,
Speaker 1: a bomber, flew bombers out of the Allusians at age
Speaker 1: like twenty five, I think it was his his commanding
Speaker 1: officer was shot down and he was running a forty
Speaker 1: plane squadron as a as a commanding officer at age
Speaker 1: in the war. And and so he had a lot
Speaker 1: of great lessons and and uh, one of them was
Speaker 1: the statement that said, Mike, don't die for your country,
Speaker 1: go on living for it. And that stays with me
Speaker 1: a lot. And and the Holy Cross, there's a real
Speaker 1: Jesuit education that focuses on the theme of people for others,
Speaker 1: and it's all about mission. And so whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: my grandfather or Holy Cross or other other things in
Speaker 1: my life, I just feel like the need to serve
Speaker 1: is really there. And so the Steal community was that
Speaker 1: for me. And then you know, I was I, like
Speaker 1: many people wrestled along the way with do I stay
Speaker 1: in or do I get out. I never said I'll
Speaker 1: do twenty years in the military. I just kind of
Speaker 1: every two or three years evaluated the path in front
Speaker 1: of me, and I I just kept turning right. I
Speaker 1: never turned left, you know. And so and then post
Speaker 1: nine eleven, it was kind of like, if not me
Speaker 1: than whom you know. At that point, I had eight
Speaker 1: or nine years of SERVI us in and I felt
Speaker 1: called to to stay in the service, just like all
Speaker 1: of us do. I'm no different than anybody else. Everybody
Speaker 1: on everybody who served has has raised their hand and
Speaker 1: said I'm ready to take risk for the nation. And
Speaker 1: that's the bond that that that that the people like
Speaker 1: your your audience understands absolutely. And you know when you
Speaker 1: talk about that and that you know the the the
Speaker 1: ability and and not just the ability, but the desire
Speaker 1: to give back. You know. One of the interesting little
Speaker 1: snippets in your book was when you talked about going
Speaker 1: to UM the Kennedy School at Harvard, and you know,
Speaker 1: you went to the recruiters and said, hey, I'm here,
Speaker 1: and you started working out with some U r OTC
Speaker 1: midshipman and one of them ends up being a congressman
Speaker 1: from Texas. And I thought that was a fascinating part
Speaker 1: of the book, even just in a small part, but
Speaker 1: fill our what's in on that because I thought that
Speaker 1: was incredible. Yeah, you know, Steve, it's it's just what
Speaker 1: everybody knows already. Busy people always mentor it's it's a
Speaker 1: life can be hard for a lot of us. But
Speaker 1: you know, when life is hard, a great answer is
Speaker 1: to go help somebody who's in greater need than we are.
Speaker 1: And um. And so that theme is something that the
Speaker 1: soft community really understands, is how to help and um
Speaker 1: and so anyways, yeah, I had a free ride. I
Speaker 1: had no reason. I had no need to wear military,
Speaker 1: anything military or do anything military. For two years, like
Speaker 1: you said, went to the commanding officers of the r
Speaker 1: OTC units on each side of the Charles River that's
Speaker 1: Boston University. And um and and uh m, I t Harvard,
Speaker 1: I said, and and and just I'll be at the
Speaker 1: base of the footbridge every Friday morning at six am.
Speaker 1: Who whoever wants to join me can And it's of
Speaker 1: course started with fifty kids, and then as it got cold,
Speaker 1: they're a little more mis miserable. And as as the
Speaker 1: discipline needed from President you know, Washington was arose. The
Speaker 1: group winnowed down, but there was a solid fifteen that
Speaker 1: showed up for my whole two years. And you know,
Speaker 1: in the beginning it was great because I just crushed
Speaker 1: all these eighteen nine year old kids. But you know
Speaker 1: it was really even greater was after, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: a month or two, they were beating. There was somebody
Speaker 1: beating me at every single thing. And on the one hand,
Speaker 1: it really sucked right just to be you know, I'm
Speaker 1: the real seal. I'm an O four at that point,
Speaker 1: and and and I'm supposed to be in front of everything.
Speaker 1: But you know, there's always always one or two that
Speaker 1: would that would um, that would that would win at everything.
Speaker 1: I didn't win a thing. And I love that. I
Speaker 1: hated it and I loved it at the same time.
Speaker 1: And so there were out of that group, I recommended
Speaker 1: three of the people to go to Seal training. They
Speaker 1: all they all were chosen, and sure I remember one
Speaker 1: day very vividly sitting down with all three of them
Speaker 1: in my kitchen in Cambridge, mass And and after a
Speaker 1: really hard workout, saying, gentlemen, here's what it means to
Speaker 1: be a seal and here's what it means to serve here.
Speaker 1: And it's all about others, and it's about you know, positive,
Speaker 1: positive influence in people's lives. It's about doing the hard thing.
Speaker 1: It's about making decisions that are sometimes unpopular. It's about
Speaker 1: you know, I can go on and on, but yeah,
Speaker 1: like you said, one of those three people was Dan
Speaker 1: Crunchaw who has become a senator a congressman in in Texas.
Speaker 1: He's a wonderfully driven human being. Dan and I have
Speaker 1: shared a connection through the years and and I'm incredibly
Speaker 1: proud of him. He also went to the Kennedy School
Speaker 1: and and then, like many people had, I think he'd
Speaker 1: be comfortable talking about this kind of wrestled with. Well,
Speaker 1: he does in his book Fortitude and Know another phenomenal book.
Speaker 1: If you haven't read Fortitude by Dan Crunchawy's highly recommended.
Speaker 1: But anyways, he you know, what are we gonna what
Speaker 1: am I gonna do? Which way am I gonna go?
Speaker 1: And through his hat in the ring and then off
Speaker 1: has his his political career has taken off. That's uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was amazing. It's like I said, some of the
Speaker 1: snippets in your book when when you talk about some
Speaker 1: of the interactions and that you had with different guys,
Speaker 1: and it would really strike you on a personal level,
Speaker 1: but because you know, you can tell that you made
Speaker 1: an impression, a lasting impression on some of the people
Speaker 1: and and some of the stories are heartbreaking. You talked
Speaker 1: about the one he was actually a Green Beret, his
Speaker 1: name was Anthony, and you know, you had some interactions
Speaker 1: with him, and he later ended up being killed, and
Speaker 1: I thought that was really powerful. And then you talked
Speaker 1: on another level about being intrusive to the point of
Speaker 1: getting to know your people. And you talked about one
Speaker 1: of your Navy seals going through I believe it was
Speaker 1: free fall training, but at the same time, he had
Speaker 1: a family issue that needed to get dealt with, and
Speaker 1: you talked him into it and basically convinced him he
Speaker 1: was doing the right thing by bowing out because it
Speaker 1: was the right thing to do. You said in the book,
Speaker 1: I think you'll thank me later for that. And those
Speaker 1: are the kind of things that I think are our
Speaker 1: listeners are reader would love to check out. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you wanted to talk a little bit about, uh,
Speaker 1: those two situations, well you I'm glad to and you
Speaker 1: talked about we talked about the audio book earlier. This
Speaker 1: is also the kind of thing that you can just
Speaker 1: pop on your earphones and and it's probably eight or
Speaker 1: nine hours of listening and incredibly easy to digest. So
Speaker 1: whether it's the book or the audio book, both of
Speaker 1: those will be easily digestible. On the last point, first, Steve,
Speaker 1: I just want to hammer one thing home, which is,
Speaker 1: look there, I don't take any credit for anything in life.
Speaker 1: All I do is I sometimes play a little bit
Speaker 1: of a part in unlocking other people's potential, right, And
Speaker 1: and that's like the same thing with Dan Crenshaw. Like,
Speaker 1: Dan's a really special person. He's a metaphor, he's an
Speaker 1: example of there are are hundreds of people like him
Speaker 1: that I've I've helped it along the way. Dan Crenshaw
Speaker 1: is a special person, irrespective of Mike Hays's involvement in
Speaker 1: his life. And so so the thing is, as we
Speaker 1: how do we help people when we need nothing in return?
Speaker 1: That's the real question, And that's really what services is
Speaker 1: doing something for people when there's nothing then when when
Speaker 1: when we don't have a transaction in mind, it's just
Speaker 1: the underlying right thing to do. And that's how I've
Speaker 1: aspired to live my life. I've done it well many times,
Speaker 1: and I've fallen short many times. But through it all,
Speaker 1: I've learned. Um on your your point about the various stories, Look,
Speaker 1: some of those are really tough, Like I. I. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've made decisions that ultimately, uh, you know, could could
Speaker 1: have been made, could have done something differently that yielded
Speaker 1: a different outcome. And I'll leave the story that you
Speaker 1: just said about Anthony, who's by the way, it is
Speaker 1: a different name and I changed the name of the person.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that person was in two or three I
Speaker 1: e d strikes and and ultimately it was my decision
Speaker 1: whether he go home or or stay in the stay
Speaker 1: in the fight. And and I won't steal the stories punchline,
Speaker 1: but ultimately I yielded to uh, to Anthony's strong, strong
Speaker 1: desires do I and and he was he it up again.
Speaker 1: It's it's worth the read. Just from this one little story.
Speaker 1: We ended up being a hero, but also also was
Speaker 1: killed in action and m and that's a tough thing
Speaker 1: for me. Sometimes it's uh, do I wish I did
Speaker 1: something differently? Look, I would given the information that I
Speaker 1: had at the time I would make the same decision,
Speaker 1: do I wish the outcome was different? Absolutely, and um
Speaker 1: and and again that's just I've had many of these
Speaker 1: types of decisions and situations through life, and so I
Speaker 1: think the most important thing is when I talk about
Speaker 1: never enough as the title of this book, it's look,
Speaker 1: it's important to also understand that we are simultaneously enough
Speaker 1: and the the title is intentionally provocative because it we
Speaker 1: really always can be more excellent and more have more
Speaker 1: meaning and more impact and more purpose, etcetera. At the
Speaker 1: same time, we can't beat ourselves up over things that
Speaker 1: we can't control. And uh, you know that that's part
Speaker 1: of part of life, and and the way we we
Speaker 1: do that here from here forward, like you said, is,
Speaker 1: in my view, it is being intrusive in people's lives.
Speaker 1: It's it's feeling comfortable asking the hard questions. You know.
Speaker 1: It's it's not popular to say, hey, have you ever
Speaker 1: thought about harm to self? You know the number of
Speaker 1: times I've asked that question since going through a few
Speaker 1: things that that I've seen, I'm really it's always uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: but I always I always ask, and you know, I've
Speaker 1: I've been really shocked at a couple of people who
Speaker 1: I never thought have ever had any of those thoughts.
Speaker 1: Who have. And it's a real eye opener. And I
Speaker 1: think it's on this community to help each other. When
Speaker 1: we talked about the Washington quote, just to keep going
Speaker 1: back to that, Look, we're small numbers, right, It's it's
Speaker 1: and especially as we transition out, the circle of of
Speaker 1: people that we are around who really understand this community
Speaker 1: gets smaller and smaller through time. And of course it's
Speaker 1: large when we're on active duty because we all have
Speaker 1: people around, but it depends on who we let into
Speaker 1: our own heads, in our own hearts, and and and
Speaker 1: that number might in many cases is way too small.
Speaker 1: And then there's ways to fix that. Number one is
Speaker 1: for all of us to open up our what we're
Speaker 1: thinking to others. But number two is is to also
Speaker 1: try to help others to open up and ask them
Speaker 1: the questions and and and get get in their heads
Speaker 1: and say what are you thinking? And then under the
Speaker 1: most importantly understanding what are the outlets for help? And
Speaker 1: how do you go get professionals to solve problems that
Speaker 1: they are more suited to solve than we are. It's
Speaker 1: a really important issue. For the soft community. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's you know, uh, we all follow that. I guess
Speaker 1: that mantra never enough. And I often wonder if if
Speaker 1: sometimes we put too much pressure on ourselves because you know,
Speaker 1: as you say in the book, I mean when you
Speaker 1: stop learning, you stop being a Navy seal. And I
Speaker 1: think that carries all of our different services and units.
Speaker 1: But sometimes I think we're too hard on ourselves and
Speaker 1: that never enough at it who I think a lot
Speaker 1: of us take it too far, and that's where I
Speaker 1: think sometimes can create problems. Steve. It's the difference between
Speaker 1: understanding healthy pressure and unhealthy pressure. Healthy pressure is great
Speaker 1: for us, unhealthy pressure not. And so you know we
Speaker 1: earlier you ask questions about the fundamental training, whether it's
Speaker 1: buds or ranger school, que course, etcetera. The the goal
Speaker 1: is always to put healthy pressure on the students because
Speaker 1: and and to know the difference. Our goal is to
Speaker 1: help people grow. Unhealthy people unhealthy pressure people don't grow,
Speaker 1: They degrade and um. And the question is understand and
Speaker 1: we all have different slopes of what of what kind
Speaker 1: of pressure we can can handle. And that's not the
Speaker 1: same every day or every year of our lives and
Speaker 1: so it's just making sure that we also understand as individuals,
Speaker 1: how do we understand our slope for what we're able
Speaker 1: to handle on any given day or week or year,
Speaker 1: and getting that right. I absolutely don't advocate for excessive
Speaker 1: and unhealthy pressure, absolutely, and I think that's a good
Speaker 1: spot for us to finish up. Um. Is there anything
Speaker 1: else that you'd like to share with our listeners today
Speaker 1: about your book or anything else that's important to you
Speaker 1: at this time? Well, Steve, I would just like to
Speaker 1: close saying thank you to this community. It's an incredible
Speaker 1: special community, and you know there are some people in
Speaker 1: here who this listener group who also have never served.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, everybody serves. And so the
Speaker 1: main message I have is while military service is held
Speaker 1: up as thank you for your service, the truth is
Speaker 1: we all can find different ways to serve and it
Speaker 1: takes different forms and shapes in our communities and our civil,
Speaker 1: civil and civic groups that we participate in, etcetera, etcetera. Look,
Speaker 1: when we're in the military, we often don't have time
Speaker 1: for anything other than our primary duty. But you know,
Speaker 1: there are also times through life where we do have
Speaker 1: extra capacity, and so I just want to say thank
Speaker 1: you to everybody, recognizing that service to others is what
Speaker 1: makes this nation great, in our community is great. And
Speaker 1: then the last thing I would say is I really
Speaker 1: deeply do appreciate support for the book never enough. It's
Speaker 1: it's like I said, it's more than a book, it's
Speaker 1: a mission. I'm really certain that people will enjoy the book.
Speaker 1: Uh it's um. I'm tempted to get to to do
Speaker 1: some blanket money back guarantee or something that might get
Speaker 1: over luned by, but but look, I really do guarantee
Speaker 1: that it will be people will find it a good read.
Speaker 1: But most importantly, again most importantly supporting the awesome cause
Speaker 1: of soft communities, veterans and service to the nation. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you very much for all of that and for
Speaker 1: your service. I encourage all of our listeners and our
Speaker 1: readers out there for software to check it out. And
Speaker 1: uh yeah, by the audio book, I think that's be
Speaker 1: a great way if you're going on a road trip
Speaker 1: to you know, listen to that while you're while you're
Speaker 1: traveling down the road. But before we go, I would
Speaker 1: just wanted to share this one public service announcement from
Speaker 1: softwarep community. If you want to get soft Reap on
Speaker 1: your phone, download our free mobile app and get easy
Speaker 1: access to our articles, podcast in gear reviews, all perfectly
Speaker 1: formated to your device. Please subscribe to softwarep dot com
Speaker 1: to get access to our library of e books and
Speaker 1: our exclusive team reforms and content available on all your
Speaker 1: Apple and Android devices. And once again, we want to
Speaker 1: thank Mike for joining us today. I mean, this was
Speaker 1: a lot of fun for me and I'm sure uh
Speaker 1: it was interesting to all of our listeners out there. Mike,
Speaker 1: thank you again for taking the time and sharing your
Speaker 1: insight with us. Steve, thanks to you to soft rep
Speaker 1: in the entire soft community. Appreciate it and make it
Speaker 1: a great day, all right, And with that will We'll
Speaker 1: be back with another podcast coming up real soon, and
Speaker 1: we encourage our leaders to keep reading the articles on
Speaker 1: what's going on in the community. There's always something going
Speaker 1: on in the world and we try to keep up
Speaker 1: with all of it. So for myself, Steve al Jerie,
Speaker 1: our guest today, UM Mike Hayes is the commander of
Speaker 1: former Commander of Seal Team Too. We want to thank
Speaker 1: you all for listening. We'll be back with another episode
Speaker 1: real shoot. You've been listening to self Recladia