Speaker 1: Here's some stories about show we made about a bunch
Speaker 1: of doctor nurses and stories, So get around here. Are
Speaker 1: yetto around here? Hey, everybody, welcome to a special episode
Speaker 1: of Fake Doctor's Real Friends. We assembled the gang here
Speaker 1: a bit because we want to talk about black face
Speaker 1: in Scrubs. There were three episodes in particular over the
Speaker 1: years that had instances of black face. One was Me
Speaker 1: in a fantasy being Donald, one was Sarah in a
Speaker 1: fantasy being Donald, and the third was Donald and I
Speaker 1: attending a black fraternity party, him and white face and
Speaker 1: me and black face. So I think we all have
Speaker 1: a lot we want to say. There's a lot going
Speaker 1: on in the world right now, and um this I
Speaker 1: think it's very good that these discussions are all coming up.
Speaker 1: Not to use a hackneyed phrase, but it does feel
Speaker 1: like a teachable moment for us all. And I thought, Bill,
Speaker 1: you might want to start off since you led the
Speaker 1: charge on this and and called the studio and said
Speaker 1: you want the episodes taken down, So do you want
Speaker 1: to just first talk about your decision to do that
Speaker 1: and you're thinking behind it. Look, the most important reason
Speaker 1: I wanted to do this, besides the fact that you know,
Speaker 1: I just felt stupid and bummed out about it, and
Speaker 1: it's my show, and you know, I'm like, fucking if
Speaker 1: it makes me feel that crappy, I can, I can,
Speaker 1: you know, I can take that out as I did
Speaker 1: see some things directed at Donald and Zach and Sarah
Speaker 1: and everybody should know that the reason that words showrunner
Speaker 1: exists in television is because you're the gatekeeper and anything
Speaker 1: that gets allowed on a show you have to ultimately
Speaker 1: take responsibility for. So, first off, super sorry that any
Speaker 1: of you guys had to deal with any stuff because,
Speaker 1: you know, ultimately, even though we're all friends and it
Speaker 1: was a super creative and kind of reciprocal environment with
Speaker 1: you know, you guys, still ultimately at the end of
Speaker 1: the day did and and uh, we're receptive to doing whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, stuff we told you about. And then the
Speaker 1: second thing you asked, it's a good starting place because
Speaker 1: what's so interesting is it starts like ignorance. You know,
Speaker 1: is even now I was reading stuff, you know, just
Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks, um when I first became
Speaker 1: aware of this is and you know it's because of
Speaker 1: the podcast Donald Zack. You're revisiting old episodes and it's uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to make sure we never sound
Speaker 1: like we're making excuses. But one of the jokes amongst
Speaker 1: us is that none of us have ever really watched
Speaker 1: this show. When you were on a show, you make it,
Speaker 1: you film it, you you shoot it, and you see
Speaker 1: it on TV, and none of us have really watched it.
Speaker 1: And for me, fifteen fourteen years and they're not ten
Speaker 1: years since I saw the finale, but fifteen years since
Speaker 1: I saw any of these episodes. And you guys saw
Speaker 1: some stuff and you're like, oh man, you know there's
Speaker 1: some issues stuff in there. You couldn't do today. It
Speaker 1: didn't feel great and the Disney was really cool. We
Speaker 1: didn't get asked to do this, you know. I called
Speaker 1: him up and said, uh, um, hey, is a bunch
Speaker 1: of episodes have black face in it and I want
Speaker 1: to get rid of them. And uh, It's very interesting
Speaker 1: because the PC cancel culture whatever on Twitter is like,
Speaker 1: why did you pull the whole episodes? Why don't you
Speaker 1: just edit those moments out and put them back on?
Speaker 1: And I said, you know, to one person, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well it's a pandemic. I don't really have an editing
Speaker 1: facility up right now. And I'll probably do that, you know,
Speaker 1: but the first thing I wanted to do is get
Speaker 1: them off TVs. That bumped me out personally, and we
Speaker 1: can talk about why if you guys want to. You know,
Speaker 1: it just made me feel shitty. I want to say
Speaker 1: one of the biggest night Naivea Tay things that I
Speaker 1: have about it, and I'm and I'm very sorry for
Speaker 1: for my participation, and I just want to first talk
Speaker 1: about the ones we're both Sarah and I were dressing
Speaker 1: up as donald and fantasies. Is that I really, frankly
Speaker 1: at the time delineated in my mind between the traditional
Speaker 1: black face that we've seen. I remember when when Ted
Speaker 1: Danson did that black face thing, and I think it
Speaker 1: was ninety three or so. I remember being being like shocked.
Speaker 1: I remember being like, what the funk was that guy thinking?
Speaker 1: And I was just out of high school, you know,
Speaker 1: because he had done the you know, the one we
Speaker 1: saw growing up and back when yeah it was back
Speaker 1: when he was dating Whoopi Goldberg. Yeah, he was dating
Speaker 1: Whipie Goldberg, who comes up a lot on this podcast. Um,
Speaker 1: and I remember she was laughing at it, and remember
Speaker 1: being like I remember even just as a as a
Speaker 1: seventeen year old or whatever, being like, what the funk
Speaker 1: is that guy thinking? But I never when we were
Speaker 1: doing this, I'm embarrassed to say now, I never equated it.
Speaker 1: I was like, I, oh, it's a fantasy where I'm
Speaker 1: trying to be my best friend, and I never thought
Speaker 1: it was the same thing. Um, it took a while.
Speaker 1: It's go while. I took about when Donald I started
Speaker 1: the podcast. I mean, obviously I cringed a little bit
Speaker 1: about it in years, but when not Donald I first
Speaker 1: started the podcast, he mentioned, he goes, I mean, we
Speaker 1: did black face on this show, and I and I
Speaker 1: cringed just to hear Donald, I didn't even tell you this, Donald,
Speaker 1: but to hear you say it out loud, it really
Speaker 1: made me feel so shitty and embarrassed and um and
Speaker 1: and I and I just feel stupid that at the
Speaker 1: time I didn't say to you, Bill. I mean again,
Speaker 1: I like, I appreciate you taking responsibility and going you know,
Speaker 1: it was my show, but I didn't say to you
Speaker 1: at the time, hey this is wrong, Hey we shouldn't
Speaker 1: do this. I I could have easily spoken up, but
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't see it. And that's how the
Speaker 1: climates change. You know, where everybody used to be able
Speaker 1: to where any joke was you know, was passible as
Speaker 1: a joke as long as it was meant to make
Speaker 1: people laugh. Nowadays there are boundaries on what you can
Speaker 1: you know, do as far as jokes going. I know
Speaker 1: a lot of comedians and stuff like that are dealing
Speaker 1: with that issue as well. You know, how do you
Speaker 1: make something that's hurt so many people? How do you
Speaker 1: use that as comedy? Is the argument that everyone's having
Speaker 1: having now, and I think people can still do it. It
Speaker 1: It depends on the voice, you know. Um, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I feel personally a lot of
Speaker 1: people feel this way as well. Uh. Dave Chappelle is
Speaker 1: one of those artists who can go out and talk
Speaker 1: about issues that we all kind of have. Some people
Speaker 1: have pain when it's involved, and people will laugh still,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I I you know, I
Speaker 1: just feel like, you know, I used to watch movies
Speaker 1: when I was a kid that with with stars that
Speaker 1: I look up to, like, you know, Eddie Murphy movie
Speaker 1: really comes to mind when I think about this, and
Speaker 1: it's you know which movie about trading places. Dude. It's
Speaker 1: one of the funniest scenes in the whole movie to me,
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I me and my friends
Speaker 1: used to do it together where dan Ackroyd walks on
Speaker 1: the train dressed as a Jamaican rastafari, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, and he's ain'to his face black and they
Speaker 1: cut into him putting the makeup on, and he's using
Speaker 1: shoe polish and ship like that to put it on
Speaker 1: when he walked into the thing, and I just remember
Speaker 1: laughing my ass off. And I know if that came
Speaker 1: up now, I'd be like, oh, ship, and I wouldn't
Speaker 1: laugh because now I know, thanks to Joel, our producer,
Speaker 1: I'm way more educated than I was before I knew
Speaker 1: black face was bad, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 1: when Sarah and Zach put on makeup to look like me,
Speaker 1: I didn't look at it as a racist thing. I
Speaker 1: looked at it as, Oh, we're trying to tell a
Speaker 1: joke that he fantasizes he wishes he was me, and
Speaker 1: she fantasized, and he fantasizes that his girlfriend, right, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. But then when you go and
Speaker 1: you listen to where all of this comes from and
Speaker 1: and what Jim Crow is or was, And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you. I knew Jim Crow
Speaker 1: was something from the South that oppressed black people, but
Speaker 1: I thought it was a white I'm be honest with you.
Speaker 1: I thought it was a white man named Jim Crow
Speaker 1: who was just a fucking you know who made it
Speaker 1: so people couldn't go into into into and performing places
Speaker 1: like that because people be like, oh, it's the Jim
Speaker 1: Crow South. I had no idea. I had no idea
Speaker 1: that it was Jim Crow was a white man dressed
Speaker 1: up as a black man, trying to show America this
Speaker 1: is how stupid black people are. And it goes so
Speaker 1: deep for me that now I can't even watch Dumbo
Speaker 1: now because the crows in Dumbo are crows, and they're
Speaker 1: supposed to be black, and they've got all of this
Speaker 1: slick talk and this talking job. I don't see, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't seem just about everything all of this ship.
Speaker 1: Now it's like, oh, I know where it comes from.
Speaker 1: And the fact that their crows doing it and the
Speaker 1: fucking dude's name was Jim Crow is even more of
Speaker 1: a mind fun for me. So it's like, how you know,
Speaker 1: and and this is what Disney was using at the
Speaker 1: time to educate children on how black people were subtly
Speaker 1: and it was like, it's like, holy shit, it starts
Speaker 1: with ignorance, right, Uh. And you know, we can talk
Speaker 1: about the history of it because I'm more educated than
Speaker 1: I ever thought I would be now just but burying
Speaker 1: myself in reading and stuff. But you guys might have
Speaker 1: even noticed this is where ignorance starts. We differentiated between
Speaker 1: kind of that Jim Crow like what you remember Al
Speaker 1: Jolson almost a shoe polished black face thing, and we
Speaker 1: did that bit once on the show with the intention
Speaker 1: of showing how idiotic it was even now talking to
Speaker 1: other view Yeah, we did it that one time with
Speaker 1: Turk and j D when Turk had white makeup on
Speaker 1: j D had black makeup on. J D got his
Speaker 1: ass kicked. I'm like, no, we did it the other
Speaker 1: two times that Elliott and j D were both made
Speaker 1: up to look like Turk and none of us had
Speaker 1: associated those is the same thing, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And uh and uh, you know, I think we were
Speaker 1: talking a little bit about it. You almost we almost thought,
Speaker 1: I think that we had, in a bad way a
Speaker 1: free pass to not have those thoughts back then because
Speaker 1: we were so fucking proud of ourselves for doing, you know,
Speaker 1: very diverse show in front of them behind the camera,
Speaker 1: great black and white friendship that exists as a real
Speaker 1: black and white friendship, great interracial couple who are stars
Speaker 1: of the show, you know, and so uh, it was
Speaker 1: almost a block of arrogance of like, oh, we're so
Speaker 1: good in what we're portraying and doing and showing, you know,
Speaker 1: we could never venture into muddy waters. And even now
Speaker 1: with that same ignorance, you know, we never really connected
Speaker 1: the two of those things until now. And you do
Speaker 1: the reading, it's not any different, you know. And I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm over talking, and then I'm gonna shut up
Speaker 1: and Donald and everybody talk. And I do want to say.
Speaker 1: One of the things that bothers me about the Internet
Speaker 1: that that's happening is there's a big both sides is
Speaker 1: some thing, you know, And I'm getting tons of little
Speaker 1: connection tissue when I read now, going, well, you're gonna
Speaker 1: pull that issue. You where that episode where Donald plays
Speaker 1: cal Turk and as a white guy insurance agent, I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not because as a white guy that does not
Speaker 1: based in any systemic racism for me or history or
Speaker 1: any negativity. I just don't. I just for me. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to separate that as well. I find that
Speaker 1: kind of argument you to be so counterproductive and ridiculous. Sorry, Donald, No,
Speaker 1: it's so good dude. Look man, first of all, I
Speaker 1: applaud you for saying, you know what this bothers me.
Speaker 1: I want to take this out, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: and educating yourself like this was an educational thing for
Speaker 1: me too, because when we made it, like my whole
Speaker 1: idea of this whole thing was like, well, look, if
Speaker 1: we could see g this opportunity at the time, it
Speaker 1: would be my face on Sarah's body. And that's how
Speaker 1: we would have got around all of that stuff. Just
Speaker 1: to remind everyone, Donald, just remind everyone in the context
Speaker 1: of that, because just with the Saurah one, for example,
Speaker 1: it was, as I recall, j D was fantasizing what
Speaker 1: if his girlfriend and his best friend were one person? Right,
Speaker 1: That's how he came right, That's one of the one
Speaker 1: of the three lines show was that you loved Turk
Speaker 1: almost even at the end. Remember is is you tell
Speaker 1: Elliott when you finally marry or I love you more
Speaker 1: than Turk, and it's the biggest thing you've ever said.
Speaker 1: And when you're living with Elliott, you know you the
Speaker 1: only way it could be any better is if she
Speaker 1: was Turk. You love him so much, right, right? Sorry,
Speaker 1: so sorry, don't go back to your c So my whole,
Speaker 1: my whole thing was like, oh, well, if if we
Speaker 1: were now, we would do a CG situation and then
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have to paint anybody. But when you do
Speaker 1: the research and you look back at it, Bill, You're
Speaker 1: absolutely right. It comes. It's a systemic thing. It comes
Speaker 1: from a place of people being very fucked up to
Speaker 1: black people towards the end of slavery, to dehumanize them.
Speaker 1: And so it's like it's like you're caught between a
Speaker 1: rock and a hard place. For me, I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: not hurt by it. I'm more disappointed that it happened.
Speaker 1: But I also believe in comedy too, right, So you know,
Speaker 1: there are things that some of my favorite comedians saying
Speaker 1: things that are in some of my favorite movies that
Speaker 1: I've laughed out loud at and now I'm finding myself
Speaker 1: having to check that, like wait, hold up, you know,
Speaker 1: let's before we start laughing at all of the things
Speaker 1: that we found funny in the past. Let's journey back
Speaker 1: to where it started at. And that's the only that's
Speaker 1: the reason why for me. Uh, I'm i'm I'm I'm
Speaker 1: very I'm I'm Bill. I'll be honest with you. I'm
Speaker 1: proud of you for saying, you know what, this bothered me.
Speaker 1: I'm taking this out. Uh, you know it's not it's
Speaker 1: not you can't do that, you know, I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't want to revolve around like, uh, we did good.
Speaker 1: We're would be so proud of you know what you mean.
Speaker 1: But no, but that's not that's that's that's not what
Speaker 1: I mean by it. You know, I feel like you felt,
Speaker 1: oh shit, this is an issue and it's not all
Speaker 1: right with me. So I want to remove it simple
Speaker 1: go the way to simplify it. Donald is for everybody,
Speaker 1: I think is and by the way, you know, there's
Speaker 1: always a slippery slope in the arts of what you
Speaker 1: know you're allowed to remove, keeping, et cetera. But for me,
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying it's right for everybody. Uh, it's
Speaker 1: my show. I'm really proud of it. And um, those
Speaker 1: moments nobody pressured me, and those moments make me feel
Speaker 1: like ship make me feel stupid and uh and by
Speaker 1: the way, there's gonna be other moments in the show
Speaker 1: that make other people angry and go you want to
Speaker 1: remove those And I'm going back through and watching the shows.
Speaker 1: And it's nothing that has bothered me as much as
Speaker 1: these three things. You know what I mean? This isn't
Speaker 1: and so for a good rule, Yeah, it's what's the
Speaker 1: big deal, I'm gonna pull three things out that make
Speaker 1: me feel like ship because now entertainment um exists in perpetuity,
Speaker 1: and uh, I should be allowed to do that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not a big deal. I'm glad you mentioned the
Speaker 1: thing about Donald being a white guy because I've I've
Speaker 1: seen that a lot too. And there's and and I
Speaker 1: think that it's important to differentiate that there was not
Speaker 1: this horrible history of people who were persecuted and and
Speaker 1: and and mocked and and and and made fun of.
Speaker 1: It's it's a completely different thing. And I I doesn't
Speaker 1: have the stigma that that this has. I can hear
Speaker 1: Eddie Murphy's white guy voice in my head at any
Speaker 1: point in time and laugh hysterically. It's one of them.
Speaker 1: I actually think it was one of the best. I
Speaker 1: think it's one of the best kits of all time.
Speaker 1: But Donald and Donald you were particularly hilarious doing that
Speaker 1: as well. I do want to talk about the other
Speaker 1: one for a second, because there were the two that
Speaker 1: we started talking about where it worse sour in a
Speaker 1: fantasy was Donald and then I was Donald in a fantasy.
Speaker 1: The other one I do remember I gotta be honest,
Speaker 1: feeling really uncomfortable doing And for those of you listening
Speaker 1: who don't remember, Donald has the idea that we're going
Speaker 1: to go to a I think it was called a
Speaker 1: black and white party at a black fraternity and and
Speaker 1: he said, I go, are you something I'm I'm paraphrasing.
Speaker 1: I watched it. You want the lines because I watched
Speaker 1: it to prepare phils, and it's you go you you say,
Speaker 1: just so you know, you say, are you sure this
Speaker 1: is gonna be okay? And Donald's like, I'm I'm going
Speaker 1: as you. You're going as me. As long as you're
Speaker 1: with me, it'll be fine. They're gonna think it's funny.
Speaker 1: And so I remember reading this and being uncomfortable about it,
Speaker 1: and I didn't I remember not wanting to do it,
Speaker 1: to be honest, but I didn't want to disappoint anyone.
Speaker 1: Everyone seemed to think it was funny. And again, I now,
Speaker 1: as an established forty five year old man, I I
Speaker 1: think I probably would have reacted differently. At the time,
Speaker 1: I was kind of like, oh, well, I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: along with with the joke. And I also remember being
Speaker 1: so terrified because keep in mind, there were all these
Speaker 1: black young men who were playing the college kids. And
Speaker 1: I said to Scott Harris at the time, who was
Speaker 1: a black man, and are one of our assistant directors.
Speaker 1: I had this this this makeup on, and I said,
Speaker 1: I'm so uncomfortable Scott that these men are not gonna
Speaker 1: know what the joke is. The joke is that JD
Speaker 1: gets his ass kicked and they throw him out a
Speaker 1: second story window. But I said, you gotta. I remember
Speaker 1: being really nervous and saying, like, please tell all these
Speaker 1: men who were the extras, uh, what the outcome is.
Speaker 1: What the joke of is that I'm that I'm my
Speaker 1: character is an idiot and then they're gonna throw me
Speaker 1: out a window. And I remember walking up to that
Speaker 1: set and and feeling really, really uncomfortable. I do think
Speaker 1: at the time I thought the joke was funny that
Speaker 1: Donald leaving me. I remember he saw like a pretty girl,
Speaker 1: and he goes with the ideas that we ring the doorbell,
Speaker 1: and then I'm supposed to be next to my friend,
Speaker 1: and then he goes Gina or something, and then he
Speaker 1: walks off what happened last night? And then yeah, and
Speaker 1: he leaves me. The guys open the door, they pull
Speaker 1: me and beat the ship out of me off camera
Speaker 1: and throw me out the second story window. Um. But
Speaker 1: I remember at the time feeling uh super super uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: But I'm ashamed at myself for not standing up and
Speaker 1: coming to you, Bill. I feel like if I'd come
Speaker 1: to you, you would have said we don't have to
Speaker 1: do this. But I didn't. I was a whimp about it.
Speaker 1: I well, you know, it's a good lesson for creators
Speaker 1: of any kind. This is what I've been thinking out
Speaker 1: about a lot. It's really important to me that on
Speaker 1: a show that you guys. One of the thing reasons
Speaker 1: I think this show worked is every cast member felt,
Speaker 1: in my head would always come and go I think
Speaker 1: this character would say something more like this, or I
Speaker 1: think that it would be funnier if he or she
Speaker 1: did this, or I think Carli, I think it'd be
Speaker 1: better if she in turk, you know, instead of being
Speaker 1: sexy or like this here. And we had that kind
Speaker 1: of open collaboration even in that environment. Young actors and
Speaker 1: actresses so don't want to be people that put a
Speaker 1: stick in the spokes with the boss, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, and don't want to be the person that says,
Speaker 1: are we sure we should be doing this that even
Speaker 1: if you think you're the most open minded boss, showrunner,
Speaker 1: movie director, anything in the world, when there's a differentiation
Speaker 1: in power, people aren't going to always say I'm not
Speaker 1: doing this, I don't want to do this. And that's
Speaker 1: a weird realization for you. If you perceive yourself as
Speaker 1: like the most open minded you know, of course they
Speaker 1: would say that they know they're never gonna get fired,
Speaker 1: in trouble, punished, have less material next week, et cetera.
Speaker 1: It's just not the way humans work. And it was
Speaker 1: a big kind of eye opener for me. The thing
Speaker 1: I would tell you, guys, is the dynamic I was
Speaker 1: just talking about is even more prevalent in writer's rooms
Speaker 1: because they're those are the people that you're directly their boss.
Speaker 1: And one of the hard realizations is even in the
Speaker 1: most healthy writer's room, i'd still say white writers are
Speaker 1: the majority in there. You know, even when there are
Speaker 1: all sorts of people of color, you still don't want
Speaker 1: to be the one in a writer's room, the one,
Speaker 1: either white writer or person of color, that goes, hey, boss,
Speaker 1: that thing that other people are laughing at, we shouldn't
Speaker 1: do it because you know, to me, one of the
Speaker 1: things I feel shitty about was that, you know Scrubs
Speaker 1: that the last episode that did that as fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1: It's not that long, you know what I mean? Dumb Dumbo.
Speaker 1: Hear me out, Dumbo was Joel Elds Dumbo holds that
Speaker 1: movie roughly. I want to say, let me get you
Speaker 1: an accurate right, but look, you you know my point being,
Speaker 1: do you is an interesting question because you said I
Speaker 1: can't watch anymore. I used to love it. Is it
Speaker 1: different for you if you go something is truly a
Speaker 1: product of the time something we're talking, you know, so
Speaker 1: they're gone with the wind argument, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: We we all know that there's still racist tropes in it,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of people they would argue to
Speaker 1: the Dumbo's one just got that from Joel. But you know,
Speaker 1: to me, I'm harsher on us because it is not
Speaker 1: that old, do you know what I mean? And to me,
Speaker 1: I do make excuses in my head. I'm asking you honestly,
Speaker 1: because by the way, this ship all makes me super uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: Like are you are you gonna be able to watch
Speaker 1: Dumbo again? And and and go with your kids and
Speaker 1: and have go Hey, it's product at the times. There's
Speaker 1: certain things I don't But here's here's the crazy thing. Bill.
Speaker 1: That was my favorite part of the movie, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. That moment was my favorite part of
Speaker 1: the movie. And so now it's like, holy shit, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. I was at one point when
Speaker 1: they did the live action version of it, I was like, man,
Speaker 1: you know what I missed? I missed the crows. I
Speaker 1: feel like an asshole and an idiot for that, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Because I wasn't looking at it
Speaker 1: as I wasn't. I wasn't looking at it as that's racist.
Speaker 1: I was looking at it as that was the best
Speaker 1: part of the movie. When I was a kid, I
Speaker 1: loved that part of the movie. Look when I say
Speaker 1: I'm ignorant, I was gonna say I feel I'm fairly
Speaker 1: well educated. I was never that book smart. But Zack
Speaker 1: and I were random. We're talking about this. Not only
Speaker 1: did I like you not know that, I just let
Speaker 1: you have Jim Crow laws. I didn't know Jim Crow
Speaker 1: was a person with some white dude performing as a minstrel.
Speaker 1: I had never heard in my entire life of June
Speaker 1: tenth until I heard it from a stand up comic
Speaker 1: like five years ago. And I'm like, that's a in
Speaker 1: And he was talking about how oh hey, other news flash.
Speaker 1: You know, Texas didn't stop slavery when the war was over,
Speaker 1: And that's one, you know, one of the things that
Speaker 1: weighs into this date. You know they took a second.
Speaker 1: I didn't know about Black Wall Street, their Tulsa masker
Speaker 1: until I watched Watchman on television. I mean, and and
Speaker 1: uh so, educationally, ignorance is is crazy. It's not built
Speaker 1: into our system any of this ship. Well that's the
Speaker 1: that's the other thing that you know, black people have
Speaker 1: been talking about for a long time. Look, you could
Speaker 1: teach history, but teach my history too, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? You know what I mean for the longest,
Speaker 1: you know, black history is a small part of the
Speaker 1: textbooks that we read. When we're you know, you learn
Speaker 1: more about the Confederacy and you learn more about you know,
Speaker 1: that stuff before you know anything about what happened to
Speaker 1: Africans coming to America and being you know, being slaves
Speaker 1: and turned into slaves and stuff like that. So it's
Speaker 1: only natural that nobody knows about these days. Nobody know,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, these are stains in America's
Speaker 1: history regards the same. That's the same, Sarah. As far
Speaker 1: as like what's being taught in schools, it's the same,
Speaker 1: and it's and you know, it's really it's terrible. It's
Speaker 1: not taught in Canada. It certainly wasn't when I was
Speaker 1: growing up, and that needs to change. And that's why
Speaker 1: we're here right now, you know what I mean. One
Speaker 1: of the things that's coming out of this movement that's
Speaker 1: really good is that a lot of us who thought
Speaker 1: we were knowledgeable are able to call ourselves out and go,
Speaker 1: I don't know ship I didn't I didn't know anything
Speaker 1: about Juneteenth. I agree with Bill Watchman, which Joel has
Speaker 1: written about extensively educated me on a lot of history.
Speaker 1: And also just two documentaries I just recently watched, which
Speaker 1: I highly recommend people watched, was something I just blew
Speaker 1: my mind about the criminal justice system in this country,
Speaker 1: Done Right. Yeah, and another one called Time, which is
Speaker 1: a series about the bail system incarceration in this country.
Speaker 1: I digressed just to say that in the spirit of
Speaker 1: what Bill is saying, I feel like there's uh again.
Speaker 1: This is a moment where we can be educating ourselves
Speaker 1: and learning. Another thing that thought that came to my
Speaker 1: mind was that over the years, Donald and I have
Speaker 1: cringed at people dressing up as Turk and j D
Speaker 1: for Halloween, and I've even gone out. I've even gone
Speaker 1: out of my way to say to people, look, hold on,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna go out dressed up as Turk this Halloween,
Speaker 1: that's great. Just no black face, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And I out of my way to say this, and
Speaker 1: every year they tag us and we we cringe, and
Speaker 1: I can't believe people are still doing it. And then
Speaker 1: I had to call myself out and go, they're doing
Speaker 1: it because I did it, because yeah, that's what That's
Speaker 1: what somebody Somebody said that to me. Somebody said that
Speaker 1: to me. Somebody was like, let me just finish the
Speaker 1: thought they were so I I last night, I was like,
Speaker 1: I was like tossing and turning, going a little bit
Speaker 1: of eureka moment. I was like, that's why all those
Speaker 1: fucking people probably did it. They all that it was
Speaker 1: okay because we had done it, and that's really fucking
Speaker 1: embarrassing to me. Well, yeah, that's that's I remember. I
Speaker 1: posted that. I said, look, I feel like I have
Speaker 1: to remind you people that when you go out this Halloween,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna dress up as Turk and you're not
Speaker 1: African American, it's not all right to go black face.
Speaker 1: And somebody tweeted me back and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but Turk, but Donald, you did this. And they showed
Speaker 1: a picture of you and me, me dressed in white
Speaker 1: face and you dressed in black face, and was like,
Speaker 1: well what about this? And I couldn't retort because I
Speaker 1: was like, holy sh it, that's right. We did do
Speaker 1: this and that's how And I didn't remember that we
Speaker 1: had done that until that moment. You know. So there's
Speaker 1: like these kids that watched the show that like that
Speaker 1: we This is the thing that makes me cringe and
Speaker 1: feel horrible and and and so regretful is that if
Speaker 1: we contributed in any way to x amount of young
Speaker 1: people being like, oh it's okay because they did it.
Speaker 1: That's what I truly regret and I'm so apologetic about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm yeah, you know, Bill, Regardless of how much flak
Speaker 1: you want to take for this, it's still we were
Speaker 1: still in the moment, and we were still there and
Speaker 1: we you know what I mean. And no, look the
Speaker 1: painful the all of us on the call. I thought
Speaker 1: it was funny as ship, and we were doing we
Speaker 1: thought we were funny as ship. And it's the kind
Speaker 1: of the arrogance that comes with success. And you know, man,
Speaker 1: it's it's Uh. I guess I like to think the
Speaker 1: uncomfortable conversations are good and uh, and people can say
Speaker 1: the ship they want to say to me, I'm beating
Speaker 1: myself up plenty. I also do want to talk about too.
Speaker 1: I really respect to you guys all for doing this uh.
Speaker 1: And Joel, I appreciate you kind of leading us along
Speaker 1: here too with with questions and articles and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I'm really grateful. But the uh, there's also this wave
Speaker 1: right now as artists and as actors and actresses and
Speaker 1: writers directors that you know, people are going like, uh PC,
Speaker 1: culture is gonna it's gonna ruin art. It's gonna ruin art,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's not. Art's gonna be fine. Okay,
Speaker 1: is the one thing I want to say. Art's gonna
Speaker 1: be And I'm so old, you know we're talking about
Speaker 1: we feel uncomfortable about that all comes off this. You know.
Speaker 1: When I first got into writing comedy, you guys wouldn't
Speaker 1: none of the four of you would believe it. But
Speaker 1: nine of the ten writers rooms you would walk into,
Speaker 1: if there were eight writers, it would be seven white
Speaker 1: dudes and one woman. Okay. And even though there's still
Speaker 1: tons of way to go, you know, as far as
Speaker 1: uh equal representation for not only black writers on shows,
Speaker 1: but people of color running creating their own shows, arts
Speaker 1: better for it, you know, My point being, at every
Speaker 1: stage of my career there's been some version of this,
Speaker 1: and the end result is not that arts worse, because
Speaker 1: I think TV especially is in a great error right now.
Speaker 1: You know. For the content, art gets better for it,
Speaker 1: you know, And so don't beat yourselves up, keep beating
Speaker 1: me up, because I should have. I was older than
Speaker 1: you and knew more than you know. Bill, I mean,
Speaker 1: I I do, I do, I I'm I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: I feel like I shouldn't have done it. I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not funny now. It wasn't funny then,
Speaker 1: and I recognize that it hurt people, and I would
Speaker 1: never ever do it again. I wish I could take
Speaker 1: it back. The easiest thing to say, by the way,
Speaker 1: because a lot of people you know have a lot
Speaker 1: of different opinions, is it's my show, tough ship if
Speaker 1: I but if I so, if I hurt your feelings,
Speaker 1: I'm super super sorry. And if you're one of those
Speaker 1: people that you're like, it didn't hurt my feelings and
Speaker 1: shouldn't go, I'm glad that you feel that way. You're
Speaker 1: welcome to but tough shit, it's uh, it's it's my show.
Speaker 1: I get to do what I want in this occasion.
Speaker 1: Look back, I know all you three as people. Man,
Speaker 1: you're all incredibly open minded, incredibly philanthropic, probably mind, and
Speaker 1: we're all able to still be family and close because
Speaker 1: of it. So again, I'm probably over talking. It just
Speaker 1: bumps me out when I hear people beating themselves over
Speaker 1: something that was my fault. Well, I think it's it's
Speaker 1: the good news is that this has inspired us to
Speaker 1: educate ourselves and and and to continue to learn and
Speaker 1: to not be uh arrogant about continuing to learn. And
Speaker 1: well also it's it's where we are right now as
Speaker 1: a as a society, as a pivotal point. And I
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, more than ever my voice uh
Speaker 1: can help you know what I mean. And it's something
Speaker 1: that you know, I do want to talk about now.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie. For a long period of time,
Speaker 1: I was very apprehensive and afraid to talk about stuff
Speaker 1: because I you know, my fan base and all of
Speaker 1: that ship. But this is way bigger than that. This
Speaker 1: is this is my kids lives. This is my kids
Speaker 1: kids lives. This is this will go one forever if somebody,
Speaker 1: if we don't stand up to it, and I can't
Speaker 1: sit back and not say anything about inequality anymore, regardless
Speaker 1: of if it's against African Americans, if it's against gays,
Speaker 1: I can't not say anything anymore women, if it's against whim,
Speaker 1: I can't not say anything anymore. So it's not a
Speaker 1: it's not a wake up call for me. I was.
Speaker 1: I was woke before this, but I'm even more in
Speaker 1: the fight now, you know what I mean. I feel
Speaker 1: like this was, you know, for for all of us.
Speaker 1: I feel like this was a kick in, a kick
Speaker 1: in the in the private parts. But this is very
Speaker 1: necessary kick in the private parts. Yeah, but it's a
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's made it so each and every
Speaker 1: one of us will check ourselves from here on out,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And that's you know, Well,
Speaker 1: do you want to do you want to say anything? Um,
Speaker 1: You've been You've been helpful in getting uh us educated
Speaker 1: in ways that I don't think we were, And I
Speaker 1: just want to know if you want to add anything.
Speaker 1: I guess I just have a question at this point.
Speaker 1: I have one belief that when you're making an apology,
Speaker 1: it's a three part process. And that process is a
Speaker 1: knitting it, which we've done apologizing to the people that
Speaker 1: were hurt, which you guys have done, but then see
Speaker 1: and Donald did it a little bit just now. But
Speaker 1: it's it's making a plan going forward so that not
Speaker 1: only does this not happen again, but that we make
Speaker 1: it better and easier for people coming up. And I
Speaker 1: just I want to ask you guys like what you're
Speaker 1: going to do because we know that their systemic racism,
Speaker 1: and all of you have access in power in the
Speaker 1: industry to make active changes. And so when I ask you,
Speaker 1: you know, what do you think you can do? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Going forward, I want to continue to learn and to
Speaker 1: read all the books that have been recommended to me,
Speaker 1: and I want to continue talking to my kids about race,
Speaker 1: but now it will be more informed and um, most
Speaker 1: importantly in terms of projects. Going forward, I will use
Speaker 1: my voice every time something is not right. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think I agree. I I A lot of the stuff
Speaker 1: I've been reading has inspired me to want to be
Speaker 1: more involved. I think I for a while I was
Speaker 1: just saying, well, I'm not I'm not a racist person
Speaker 1: and my favorite human being on earth as a as
Speaker 1: a black man, like you know, I was sort of
Speaker 1: resting on these ridiculous laurels and not being proactive and
Speaker 1: taking action. And now I think, with what's going on
Speaker 1: in the country and what's what we're all reading about,
Speaker 1: what we're all learning about watching these documentaries, I mean
Speaker 1: I want to actively get involved in making a change. Bill. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it looks um to me. It's a bigger question. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you an embarrassing story is Um, it's it's involves
Speaker 1: defining what the word enough means to you, Like I
Speaker 1: am I doing enough right, and it's gonna be different
Speaker 1: for every people and you can't define it. And I
Speaker 1: am definitely the type of person that for a long time, UM,
Speaker 1: felt like I'm doing enough? You like Spin City is uh?
Speaker 1: You know, I had a gay black regular that it
Speaker 1: wasn't the joke, you know what I mean, and got
Speaker 1: all these awards for it early on, and so I
Speaker 1: was always patting myself in the back. And then one
Speaker 1: of the and you know, and and most of my
Speaker 1: shows and staffs have been diverse in either in front
Speaker 1: of behind the camera both and then uh, I was
Speaker 1: trying to think about it because I thought you might
Speaker 1: ask something like this. And I did a show once
Speaker 1: and I don't want to mention the show because I
Speaker 1: don't want to mention somebody that wasn't his fault in
Speaker 1: which I wasn't going to run the show. So I
Speaker 1: was going to write it with a uh, you know,
Speaker 1: young writer that was on one of my shows, Uh,
Speaker 1: supervise them, and I was really proud and exciting. The
Speaker 1: show got picked up and we went to those t
Speaker 1: C A s um the panel was. I was like,
Speaker 1: this is cool because this network hasn't really done this.
Speaker 1: This is an hour long television show that the four
Speaker 1: regulars on the show, the four Pete four actors, and
Speaker 1: these guys all sat up there are an Asian guy,
Speaker 1: two black guys, and a Latina woman and you know,
Speaker 1: and so I'm patting myself on the back and raising
Speaker 1: my arms and one of the first questions is why
Speaker 1: are two white guys right in this? And uh, the
Speaker 1: you know, And it was a reporter because I've been
Speaker 1: doing this for a long time that it was nice
Speaker 1: to me and didn't make a huge issue out of it.
Speaker 1: But the real question was why did I pick you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, a dude. It's not it's not
Speaker 1: that young guy's fault. Who any young guy going I've
Speaker 1: never created the TV show my boss of this many
Speaker 1: years is picking me to do one? You know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Uh, any dude would go, fuck yeah, let's
Speaker 1: do it, you know. And that should have been a
Speaker 1: slightly longer search process to mock myself, you know. And
Speaker 1: that's the change in thinking of what is enough. But
Speaker 1: I made one of those key mistakes that for me
Speaker 1: makes my enough not good enough anymore, you know. And uh,
Speaker 1: it's really I don't know who the first person that
Speaker 1: said it was, but one of these things, it was
Speaker 1: all over the vernacular, was not enough to be not
Speaker 1: a racist, it's enough Biana racist. And my son asked
Speaker 1: what that meant, and I told him that it meant.
Speaker 1: What meant for me was the countless times I've been
Speaker 1: somewhere where ever heard some dude and we know, the
Speaker 1: guy make a blatantly racist joke amongst a bunch of
Speaker 1: people drinking beers to test the water. And I was fine, going,
Speaker 1: all right, that guy's a dick. I'm never gonna I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna laugh at all, and he's not gonna be
Speaker 1: in my world. And I just don't laugh and move on. Uh.
Speaker 1: And that's as shade different than having the courage to go, hey, dude,
Speaker 1: shut the funk up, right. And so those those two metaphors,
Speaker 1: that metaphor, to me, those two things are very similar.
Speaker 1: So for what you know, for me, what it means
Speaker 1: going forward is adjustin that ship. So that's where I'm at, Joe. Oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm going
Speaker 1: to educate myself more because so I so I can
Speaker 1: talk about a lot of uh the history of of
Speaker 1: of my people and be able to speak knowledgeable of
Speaker 1: it and not talk out of my ass, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. That's one way that I'm going to
Speaker 1: change who I am instead of being just okay with
Speaker 1: all right. I'm an African American man in this industry,
Speaker 1: and I've made it this far. I'm a great example,
Speaker 1: uh you know. I'm also I'm I'm I'm a firm
Speaker 1: believer of h of of bringing the next one up
Speaker 1: and and and helping those behind me and who don't
Speaker 1: have the opportunities that I have. And so I plan
Speaker 1: on investing in you know, African American communities, whether it
Speaker 1: be my time or or my knowledge of my experience,
Speaker 1: I plan on doing that. I plan on, you know,
Speaker 1: talking to the youth about my experience. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: And because at the end of at the at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, it's you know, you can't sit
Speaker 1: on I can't sit on everything that I've learned so far,
Speaker 1: and just I'm not gonna I feel like if I
Speaker 1: just sit on it and keep it for myself. I'm
Speaker 1: a stingy individual and I'm not and I'm not pushing
Speaker 1: forward equality and so I you know, all my experiences
Speaker 1: and everything that I've gone through and and and educating
Speaker 1: myself are in my uh immediate future. I'll say that
Speaker 1: it's it's amazing that all of you guys want to
Speaker 1: educate yourselves and our are starting that journey. I think
Speaker 1: that is. I think this, especially as the black community
Speaker 1: said over and over and like, that's the least, that's
Speaker 1: the first thing, and I think it's it's an important part.
Speaker 1: But I hope that especially as um you guys continue
Speaker 1: on your journeys and continue to join shows, that you'll
Speaker 1: look around at your staff and see who's missing and
Speaker 1: call it out when you see it. Because to me,
Speaker 1: especially as a black person who's been in Hollywood for
Speaker 1: six years and walking around and seeing who gets to
Speaker 1: come up and seeing you know, the way a lot
Speaker 1: of young black people are treated on sets, the way
Speaker 1: they're sort of frequently run out. You know, we've just
Speaker 1: heard the thing um that was happening on Glee, and
Speaker 1: a lot of these situations you know, again not that
Speaker 1: long ago, five or six years ago, and it's still
Speaker 1: a struggle. And so now that you guys have have
Speaker 1: said all this and and and I think done the
Speaker 1: first work of making sure that you know past mistakes
Speaker 1: are called out and and you're being held accountable, which
Speaker 1: is great. There's still so many people who are willing
Speaker 1: to hide and just be like, oh that was long
Speaker 1: ago and I didn't know. So I think this is
Speaker 1: a great first step. Um, and I hope to see
Speaker 1: you guys continue to do more. Is it all with Joel?
Speaker 1: Is it always going to make me feel this uncomfortable?
Speaker 1: Is that part of it? Yeah? I think so. I
Speaker 1: mean I'm black and kin uncomfortable my whole life. I
Speaker 1: think we'll be okay. By the way, I'm so glad
Speaker 1: you said that I was going for the setups in
Speaker 1: case you wanted to be Actually, she was like, no,
Speaker 1: it won't be this uncomfortable. It's gonna be it's Is
Speaker 1: there something Joel can do to make me feel better
Speaker 1: about the way this is going? Joel? Can you make
Speaker 1: this easier? I think it's good. I think it's good
Speaker 1: in all aspects of our lives to have the uncomfortable conversations. Um.
Speaker 1: There was a thing my father used to say, breakdowns
Speaker 1: lead to breakthroughs. And uh, I think that's a good
Speaker 1: to have some breakthroughs in our lives. I want to
Speaker 1: think listening tomorrow, we'll be back with the regular podcast.
Speaker 1: But we just wanted to We didn't want to just
Speaker 1: send out a tweet or put out a statement. I
Speaker 1: think it was something that was on all of our
Speaker 1: minds to just kind of get together and talk. So
Speaker 1: and U Zach is uh not speaking for you guys,
Speaker 1: I didn't you know when I did this, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I don't affect any of you. I didn't put out
Speaker 1: any statement or anything like that because those always seemed
Speaker 1: to me like, hey, I'm apologizing uh now that I
Speaker 1: think I might be in trouble um and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just part of the part of the
Speaker 1: toxic nature of the internet and part of reality that
Speaker 1: but uh, I would say to that, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: guys are cool with it too. I'm willing to talk
Speaker 1: to anybody in anyone in a cool, constructive forum about
Speaker 1: any of this stuff, uh, including you know, my my
Speaker 1: own shortcomings with it. And I'm still do you want
Speaker 1: journalists to hit you up? Is that what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I think things like this, you guys have a big
Speaker 1: audience in this podcast, and I think anything where you
Speaker 1: reach people, anything where you reach people, I hope you
Speaker 1: guys will do it with me and continue to do that. Um,
Speaker 1: you can shoot the ship and answer questions with no
Speaker 1: rules and all that stuff. I'm I'm always down for
Speaker 1: it if you guys want to Yes. Um, thank you guys.
Speaker 1: Thank you Jowell for moderating and sort of really helping
Speaker 1: be a great producer of the show. Sarah, our favorite Canadian,
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming, Thanks for having me, and uh we
Speaker 1: love you guys. Thank you for listening, and um tune
Speaker 1: in tomorrow for the very last episode of season one
Speaker 1: with guest stars Bill Lawrence and Chris the Miller. Um,
Speaker 1: I think we should end in song. Donald know, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the first episode I've ever been on that. I
Speaker 1: didn't say five, six, seven, eight, just did it though. No,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna go one. Donald, Let's change the tone
Speaker 1: and lead us in song. Thank you everybody for listening.
Speaker 1: Sick seven eight stories about show we made about a
Speaker 1: bunch of doctor nurses and jan stories. So get around here?
Speaker 1: Are yet around here? Are mm hmm