Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Today we bring you the
Speaker 1: story of the whoopee cushion Emperor who did a lot
Speaker 1: more than that anyway. My name is Ben. Yeah, Ben
Speaker 1: no here, he did a lot of stuff. And you
Speaker 1: know what, there's one thing that I think we can
Speaker 1: both agree on is we love a good corrupt, decadent
Speaker 1: Roman emperor story m for the podcast. Now, of course,
Speaker 1: going into this, we do have to establish that um
Speaker 1: with powerful figure of old, especially for some reason Roman
Speaker 1: emperors and maybe popes. Whenever you hear their stories, especially
Speaker 1: past a certain historic threshold, you have to assume that
Speaker 1: there's some exaggeration, a little bit of the equivalent of
Speaker 1: tabloid writing in the mix there. But just just from
Speaker 1: the jump, uh, we we do have to say take
Speaker 1: some of this with a pillar of salt. But we
Speaker 1: had a lot of fun Telly Now our super producer
Speaker 1: Casey pegram some of the highlights of this guy's career
Speaker 1: before we even recorded. Yeah, we did. You know, there's
Speaker 1: there's no nipping Mennos in this one. And if if
Speaker 1: you'll recall that from ridiculous histories of your who's that
Speaker 1: what what what? What? Decadent emperor had the nipping mennos,
Speaker 1: with the the castrated young boys that would pretend to
Speaker 1: be little fishies nipping at his heels, and the bathing pools. Um. This,
Speaker 1: there is decadence of that caliber in this story, but
Speaker 1: this one is almost more about what the greater Roman
Speaker 1: population might consider uh heresy or sacrilege. Right, this is
Speaker 1: how this emperor really put It wasn't the decadence or
Speaker 1: the hedonism or the orgyistic behavior. It was really kind
Speaker 1: of just dissing their pantheon. Yeah, that earlier, the Nippi
Speaker 1: minnows guy that you just mentioned, old that was tiberious, Yes, yes, uh,
Speaker 1: and he did other things. I think that's just what
Speaker 1: we latched onto because it was so raunchy and so weird. Uh.
Speaker 1: Today's story is about an emperor, a heretic, a problem child.
Speaker 1: If anybody recalls that film franchise, especially these early days,
Speaker 1: who is known most commonly today as Ella Gabalus, which
Speaker 1: is love him or hate Um. That's just a fun
Speaker 1: name to say, Ella Gabolus. It sounds like a spell.
Speaker 1: Ella Gabalus. Is hella fabulous a name? Uh, it's a
Speaker 1: name that was I love. I love the idea of
Speaker 1: giving yourself a name, right, um, and that that is
Speaker 1: what this uh, this young man did. His official name
Speaker 1: was a little less sexy, if very convoluted. It was
Speaker 1: Caesar Marcus Aurelius and to Ninus Augustus, which was a
Speaker 1: political choice as well. It was kind of it was
Speaker 1: meant to tie him into uh, legitimacy and public eye,
Speaker 1: which is which is a cool thing that you can't
Speaker 1: get away with. Is often today, like popes choose their names.
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, podcasters spoiler alert, podcasters can't just
Speaker 1: go out and say, well, my name is uh Karen
Speaker 1: kill Graf, Maren Glass, Marsupial, I don't know Marsupial, but
Speaker 1: you know I'll back you up, yes, And I just
Speaker 1: want I just want to I just think Marsupial sounds
Speaker 1: like a Roman name. I would love to see that
Speaker 1: used more. And and uh in naming culture, I guess.
Speaker 1: And maybe when I say he gave himself the name
Speaker 1: uh Ella Gabolus, that's not quite right. It was largely
Speaker 1: kind of a nickname, I guess because his real name
Speaker 1: or his official name was so convoluted and confusing and
Speaker 1: easy to construe with other you know, because every single
Speaker 1: one of these Caesar, Marcus, Aurelius, Antoninus, Augustus were all
Speaker 1: other huge figures that loomed large in Roman political culture.
Speaker 1: In fact, I believe ben he was referred to often
Speaker 1: by detractors as the faults Antoninas or fake Antoninus. Yes,
Speaker 1: you are correct, and the name Marcus really a severus,
Speaker 1: and Deninus was the identical name of an earlier imper
Speaker 1: name now known as Caracalla, so they changed. People only
Speaker 1: referred to Ella Gabolus as Ellie Gables after his death.
Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, He's not with us today. Uh, And that
Speaker 1: was probably that was probably to differentiate him from this
Speaker 1: other guy who was like three emperors before him, who
Speaker 1: had the exact same name. So totally understand that. And
Speaker 1: what I was I kind of stepped on my own
Speaker 1: story there. What I was getting out was the name
Speaker 1: Ella Gabbles came from the fact that his mother, Uh, Julia,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shart my best at this, so m E
Speaker 1: S s O A E M I A S so am. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, but you know whatever, correct me if
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, folks. Uh. This part of his family came
Speaker 1: from Syria and worshiped a particular son deity by the
Speaker 1: name of Ella Gubbaal, which to me just sounds like
Speaker 1: something out of Dune. Obviously Dune probably took a lot
Speaker 1: of inspiration from this part of the world. Um. And
Speaker 1: it was yes, an em a scene son god uh.
Speaker 1: And he as a youth was what's called a hereditary
Speaker 1: priest of this god. And this is something that's gonna
Speaker 1: follow him that he's gonna really double down on when
Speaker 1: he starts getting into Roman politics. Absolutely, yeah. And this
Speaker 1: was you could tell from the title, folks, hereditary priesthood
Speaker 1: means that he was able to get this position due
Speaker 1: to the family of his mother, Julius so Amias. His
Speaker 1: maternal grandmother, Julia Mesa, was also involved with this, and
Speaker 1: she was the elder sister of one Juliet Domna, who
Speaker 1: is the wife of Septimius Severus uh, the Emperor of Rome,
Speaker 1: founder of the Severn dynasty. Lot of Julius. Here, a
Speaker 1: lot of Julia's people were like you know, you find
Speaker 1: people back then treated names the way Bernie Sanders treats coats.
Speaker 1: You find one good one, you keep the good one. Uh.
Speaker 1: So the guy we call Elligaballas today was born around
Speaker 1: two oh three c e. In as he said, no,
Speaker 1: in Syria, uh, the city that's today known as Halms.
Speaker 1: This gives us some weird perspective. First off, the way
Speaker 1: he gets to become emperor is super sketchy. It's a
Speaker 1: great story, but I want to plan a seed for
Speaker 1: a little bit of perspective. So recently here in the US,
Speaker 1: the new president was elected. That president is Joe Biden,
Speaker 1: and Joe Biden is the only the second Catholic ever
Speaker 1: elected to the office of the presidency, uh in the
Speaker 1: history of this country. The other one was JFK. I
Speaker 1: thank there. Our country's gone. I would like to say
Speaker 1: progressed a bit such that it's not a huge deal
Speaker 1: or controversial, but we'll see how religion and religious affiliation
Speaker 1: plays a huge role in the real controversy surrounding Ella Gables,
Speaker 1: Like people were calling him this, you know, this false emperor.
Speaker 1: Uh for a number of reasons. His bedside manner didn't help.
Speaker 1: So he's he's got he's set up for success. You know,
Speaker 1: he's born it into the upper echelons. He's part of
Speaker 1: the priesthood class. He's got some connects with the ruling dynasty. Uh.
Speaker 1: The Severing dynasty was from one ninety three to about
Speaker 1: two thirty five CES, So he's born during this dynasty
Speaker 1: and he has a connect with him. Uh. His mom
Speaker 1: and his maternal grandmother, both Julia's, were crucial. UH. Probably
Speaker 1: the puppeteers behind the scheme to raise him to the
Speaker 1: throne of Rome. And as we see often occurring in
Speaker 1: ancient monarchies, they there's a good argument that they were
Speaker 1: pretty much in control of the empire, especially when Eliga
Speaker 1: Ballast was in his younger days. Wouldn't you say? I
Speaker 1: would say that bad, and I gotta get it out
Speaker 1: of my system real quick before we progressed too far.
Speaker 1: Whenever I hear the words severing or severus, the first
Speaker 1: thing I think of is the Velvet Underground song Venus
Speaker 1: and first uh and the lyric go severing severance speaks
Speaker 1: us slightly severing down on your bended knee, taste the
Speaker 1: whip in love not given lightly. Taste the whip now
Speaker 1: bleed for me. So I mean, obviously this is a
Speaker 1: reference to that kind of s and m hedonism of
Speaker 1: this particular era of Roman culture. I mean, it's he's
Speaker 1: spread throughout, we see it, but the particularly kind of
Speaker 1: kinky behavior. And I mean the name of the song
Speaker 1: is Venus in first. After all, well, let me let
Speaker 1: me get this out of my system that I'm gonna
Speaker 1: only reference at once. The whole time I was reading
Speaker 1: and researching the Severest dynasty, here, I was just picturing
Speaker 1: snape from Harry Potter, also a thing bore and again
Speaker 1: and again just using a different name, or he wouldn't
Speaker 1: even have to in Rome, because apparently people didn't use
Speaker 1: different names that you just got posthumous nicknames. It's very
Speaker 1: interesting way of going about things, and also makes for
Speaker 1: very confusing timelines because we see, you know, even within
Speaker 1: the same era, all of these same names popping up
Speaker 1: over and over again, so and and and and the
Speaker 1: The story that we're to about how uh Ela Gabiles
Speaker 1: became emperor is in and of itself, like you said, Ben,
Speaker 1: super shady, but also very complex and convoluted. So we're
Speaker 1: gonna do our best to kind of maybe fast track
Speaker 1: it and then get to the the hedonistic stuff, the
Speaker 1: juicy stuff. We know why you're listening, folks, Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's well, we'll go through this, uh will We may
Speaker 1: have to make up our own nicknames for some of
Speaker 1: the people, because again, this gets convoluted. Partially, I'd argue
Speaker 1: because the names. It reminds me of that great Marques
Speaker 1: novel One Years of Solitude, which just if you've read it,
Speaker 1: you know one of the toughest parts is following all
Speaker 1: these people with the same names. Anyway, here's what happens. Karacala,
Speaker 1: the guy we mentioned earlier, uh, he is assassinated in
Speaker 1: two seventeen BC. This death marks a kind of break,
Speaker 1: a loss of power for the Severin dynasty, and the
Speaker 1: next emperor, Macronus, is not a member of this family
Speaker 1: associated with that previous dynasty. Macronus was set up well.
Speaker 1: He was a praetorian prefect under Karakala. He's also the
Speaker 1: guy who orchestrated the coup, killed the emperor, and then
Speaker 1: seized the throne, and he wanted to get rid of
Speaker 1: anybody who might contest his rule, including people who were
Speaker 1: members of the previous emperor's family, even if they were
Speaker 1: kind of distant members. Because of that, he exiled Ella
Speaker 1: Gabolus and his family back to their estate in Syria.
Speaker 1: But it turns out that he may be Macronus maybe
Speaker 1: underestimated just how badly the emperor's family wanted to return
Speaker 1: to power. So why is Syria so involved in Roman politics?
Speaker 1: I know that Rome like annexed a part of Syria
Speaker 1: and then so I guess like like in sixty four BCS,
Speaker 1: so that would have been long before this period. So
Speaker 1: I guess they just kind of became intertwined. So there
Speaker 1: could have been like Syrian families because of that relationship,
Speaker 1: that that moved up in the pecking order. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like it's it was a important province of the empire.
Speaker 1: So it definitely was part of the Empire. It was
Speaker 1: just also considered like because of the way assimilation works,
Speaker 1: they're they're probably considered a little bit culturally different. The
Speaker 1: thing is, uh mccrinus sort of made a fatal error
Speaker 1: when he underestimated, uh the I guess the staying power
Speaker 1: that the Severin dynasty had and how much the family
Speaker 1: of Karcala really, really really did not want to give
Speaker 1: up that power once they've gotten to taste of it.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it would be a hard self
Speaker 1: for anyone if you've been used to being the family
Speaker 1: of literally the emperor to all of a sudden, Oh
Speaker 1: there's a coup, and now your life is completely different.
Speaker 1: But often I think fear or just self preservation would
Speaker 1: take over, but in this case what took over was
Speaker 1: a desire to take back the throne clawed back in fact.
Speaker 1: So Julia Misia uh mesa, let's say um was the
Speaker 1: sister in law to Septimus Severus. Okay, this is where
Speaker 1: it gets a look confusing. Also was grandmother to eligabalas Um.
Speaker 1: And she was very, very very gifted at conniving and um,
Speaker 1: you know, making moves behind closed doors and double crossing
Speaker 1: and every flavor of uh today almost consider like espionage,
Speaker 1: but it's really just political maneuvering. So she decided she
Speaker 1: was gonna make it her goal above all else to
Speaker 1: get her family back on the throne. So she and
Speaker 1: her two daughters, uh the other two Julia's Julius Simias
Speaker 1: and Julia Mamia Mamia Um, they were going to work
Speaker 1: together and conspire to destroy mcnus. I'm just I'm just
Speaker 1: laughing because as soon as we got to the other
Speaker 1: Julia Baba Mia, in my head, it's just my mommy
Speaker 1: and it'd be cool. So yeah, so she said, okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's get rid of this Macronus guy. He's a dirt bag,
Speaker 1: he's a pill. I've got an idea. I've got a
Speaker 1: pitch for you. Let's keep it in the family. How
Speaker 1: about my grandson, Ella Gabolus. He's he's legitimate, and we
Speaker 1: can strengthen his claim to the throne with a little
Speaker 1: bit of a story. You know, someone told me, a
Speaker 1: little bird told me I heard through the grapevine word
Speaker 1: on the street, that Ella Gabolus is actually the illegitimate
Speaker 1: son of Cara Colla, the emperor who got assassinated. And
Speaker 1: it's weird because Ella Gableus did look like he resembled
Speaker 1: Caro call if you saw their faces together, you could,
Speaker 1: you know, you could see it. But he was, in
Speaker 1: fact just a cousin of that emperor. Still at this time,
Speaker 1: his fortunes are looking good because while they're in exile
Speaker 1: in Syria, he's inherited his family position as high priest,
Speaker 1: and he was currently worshiping that sun god we mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: Ella Gabal, the god of the Mountain, the stone god
Speaker 1: of the Mountain, in his home city of Syria. And
Speaker 1: it gets a little love craft, dude, which is super cool.
Speaker 1: We'll get into it. So this god from what we
Speaker 1: call Roman Syria, the worship of this Eli gabal This
Speaker 1: was a widespread cult in the Empire in the second century,
Speaker 1: and the religion was eventually kind of assimilated into Helios,
Speaker 1: the Roman sun god. And that's why one of Helios's
Speaker 1: street names was Helio Gabblus, which is a variant of
Speaker 1: Eli Gabalus, which eventually became this emperor's posthumous nickname. That
Speaker 1: was a lot, but I think we got there. So
Speaker 1: I think we got there. It does make sense. Um.
Speaker 1: And again, if anybody is more into the minutia of
Speaker 1: this power struggle, there's certainly materials out there if you
Speaker 1: check out. We're doing our best to get through it, um.
Speaker 1: But there you know, if you want to, if that's
Speaker 1: the part that that really interests you, highly recommend this
Speaker 1: National geographic piece from Juan Pablo Sanchez, published in March
Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen. Uh. And there's again tons of other mania.
Speaker 1: There's also a really good YouTube video that I found.
Speaker 1: It's about a half an hour and talks a lot
Speaker 1: about struggle. That's the right, that's the way yeah, I
Speaker 1: dig that one. I take that one. It's a it's
Speaker 1: part of a series on the ten Most Evil Robe
Speaker 1: exactly well narrated, lots of good imagery. Highly recommend that one.
Speaker 1: Live footage, live footage, yeah, re enactments of orgies No,
Speaker 1: not quite but close. Um. But you know it's interesting
Speaker 1: in general, how Rome always in Okay, so let's look
Speaker 1: at Greek and Roman religious pampeons. How there's always kind
Speaker 1: of like a like a um analog god, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, between the two cultures. And because Rome
Speaker 1: conquered so many different Um cultures, they assimilated a lot
Speaker 1: of different religions, so they're like, well you don't need
Speaker 1: you know, la goball you've got who has it been? Helios? Helios? Right?
Speaker 1: But that wasn't doing it for Eli Gabalis, was it? No?
Speaker 1: Not at all. I mean, religious syncretism is a huge
Speaker 1: tool of empires because it's it's super effective, which I
Speaker 1: feel like I excellent quoted a video game there. But
Speaker 1: you're right, Eliablus wasn't having it. Uh. He said, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm the high priest of this I kind of know
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, guys. Uh. And it's it's not
Speaker 1: not the same thing anyway. Uh. The Roman government initially
Speaker 1: supported Macronus because Macronus is the ruling emperor and he
Speaker 1: kills people to take their thrones. So when Macronus said
Speaker 1: this like Ablis kid is an idiot, he's a real
Speaker 1: piece of work, not hell of fabulous at all. No, no,
Speaker 1: the opposite. Uh. He started calling him the false Antoninus,
Speaker 1: and he said, look, I am well aware of this kid,
Speaker 1: and he is insane. You do not want him in power,
Speaker 1: which would later actually turn out to be the case.
Speaker 1: So the senate listened to their emperor and they said,
Speaker 1: you know what, good point, Emperor. We're going to declare
Speaker 1: war on this guy and his mom. However, mom she
Speaker 1: has a plan. They say, we're going to declare war
Speaker 1: on this guy and his grandmother. But the grandmother has
Speaker 1: a plan. She's not gonna let people dissuade her from
Speaker 1: her scheme to get her grandson on the throne. So
Speaker 1: she goes to the Roman troops stationed in Syria, the
Speaker 1: third Legion, and she bribes them into supporting her her cause,
Speaker 1: and the kind of this kind of hamstrings Macronus his
Speaker 1: forces in the area. She bought out the troops that
Speaker 1: he was going to use basically, Yeah, and with that
Speaker 1: support and with this uh, you know, seemingly legit you know,
Speaker 1: severing pedigree, right, Ella Gabalus was presented to the centurion
Speaker 1: Publius Valerious Camazan and his troops, um, and he was
Speaker 1: he was convinced he was good. So the military essentially, uh,
Speaker 1: decreed that he was the new emperor of Rome. Was
Speaker 1: that about government ben Yeah, that gets us there, So
Speaker 1: they says new and berg Rome. Other legions in the
Speaker 1: east follow with their own recognition. So now the empire
Speaker 1: is in an unstable state. Uh no pun intended, meaning
Speaker 1: that there there are two people claiming to be the emperor. Uh.
Speaker 1: Ellie Gablis had a tutor, a eunuch named Gannies, who
Speaker 1: later became a general, and Gannies would go on to
Speaker 1: defeat Macronus in Antioch and modern day Turkey just like
Speaker 1: not even a month later. So Marinus is defeated and
Speaker 1: he flees on June eighteen CE. Uh. He is executed
Speaker 1: at Cappadocia. They also catch his son and kill his son,
Speaker 1: and so Ellie Gables declares his victory to be the
Speaker 1: beginning of his reign as the Emperor of Rome. He
Speaker 1: is fifteen years old. He takes all the titles uh,
Speaker 1: and then he goes instantly into diplomacy where his mother
Speaker 1: and grandmother do because he sends these letters, uh, these
Speaker 1: like let's bury the hatchet letters to the Senate in Rome.
Speaker 1: And the way that these letters are raised, from what
Speaker 1: we can tell, uh, is very much like, hey, you
Speaker 1: can you can get with the times, you can ride
Speaker 1: the wave with me, or you can drown when it crashes.
Speaker 1: So the senators knew they were getting an offer they
Speaker 1: couldn't refuse. It was kind of gangster, uh, So they
Speaker 1: went along with it and boomed. The Severeign dynasty is
Speaker 1: back in play. But pretty quickly as they're traveling to Rome,
Speaker 1: we start to see some unusual behavior on the part
Speaker 1: of the new emperor. Yeah, well we might call historical
Speaker 1: weird flexes, but not nothing like two out of the ordinary.
Speaker 1: I mean, he he liked fine clothing. He would drape
Speaker 1: himself in the finest purple raiments embroidered with golden what
Speaker 1: he ca coutrement. You know, he was like basically iced up,
Speaker 1: you know, wearing heavy necklaces and bracelets adorned with the
Speaker 1: finest of precious jewels and metals, and uh, he even
Speaker 1: gave him he found himself. Um. And also like like
Speaker 1: this is a letter from reading this, maybe I'm a
Speaker 1: little confused about the imagery here, but it makes it
Speaker 1: sound like he was wearing a crown uh and a tiara.
Speaker 1: He was just he was an extra tag extra Yeah,
Speaker 1: golden jewels, all that stuff. Uh. And he had like
Speaker 1: a crew following him around that would accompany his every
Speaker 1: move with flutes and fifes and drums and all that. Um.
Speaker 1: And he was just constantly like strutting around and like
Speaker 1: really being very performative with his with his behavior. Uh.
Speaker 1: And he would openly participate in these orgiastic let's call
Speaker 1: them services or rituals uh in you know, devotion to
Speaker 1: his god uh elagaba right right in service of this religion.
Speaker 1: So he's he's yeah, he could be consider a bit
Speaker 1: of a peacock, a bit vain, a bit uh stretched forward.
Speaker 1: He was accused in later historical writings of living in
Speaker 1: a quote debraved manner, engaging in a natural vice with dudes.
Speaker 1: We all know what that means. Uh. The troops who
Speaker 1: were stationed nearby, we're kind of digging it. They were like,
Speaker 1: this is a great show. You know, this is before
Speaker 1: Circus l A. This is the best they could get, right,
Speaker 1: So they're like, this is this is a heck of
Speaker 1: a show. So they would travel to his temple and
Speaker 1: watch him do his priestly duties, and they were just
Speaker 1: taken in by the spectacle of it. Uh. But but
Speaker 1: that that was all before he was the emperor. He
Speaker 1: was just an exiled person at that time. Now that
Speaker 1: he is the dude in charge of the Roman Empire,
Speaker 1: the soldiers are less and less impressed, and according to
Speaker 1: a work called the Historia Augusta, the soldiers soon began
Speaker 1: to regret that they conspired against Macronus in the beginning,
Speaker 1: and they were starting to think, I don't know, is
Speaker 1: this kid really going to be a good emperor. And
Speaker 1: the soldiers weren't the only ones worried. Old even Elli
Speaker 1: Gabolus's grandmother, who was largely responsible for this scheme, started
Speaker 1: to think, I don't know if my grandson, you know,
Speaker 1: I love him to death Alcobal bless him. I don't
Speaker 1: know if my grandson is fit to be emperor. He's uh,
Speaker 1: he's being a little out there. He really did seem
Speaker 1: a little out there. And there are some accounts from
Speaker 1: various historians and firsthand observers of this behavior, one of
Speaker 1: whom was Herodian, who wrote that Julia Mesa, the grandmother
Speaker 1: in question here, was quote greatly disturbed and tried again
Speaker 1: and again to persuade the youth to wear Roman dress
Speaker 1: when he entered the city to visit the Senate Um,
Speaker 1: fearing that his appearance, obviously foreign and holy barbed barrack,
Speaker 1: would offend those who saw him. So again like that,
Speaker 1: not only are these these outfits that he's flexing, you know,
Speaker 1: super extra and ostentatious and over the top, they represent
Speaker 1: a completely different culture. And there is kind of a
Speaker 1: need in this situation if you're coming from a different culture, uh,
Speaker 1: to at least give the appearance of you know, respect
Speaker 1: or not. Maybe not full assimilation, but certainly not just
Speaker 1: outright flouting of the culture that you're coming into. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely think about it this way. So there's there's already
Speaker 1: been great instability. When you the average Roman citizens see
Speaker 1: your new emperor, you want to think that Emperor, hey,
Speaker 1: they look Roman. They look like someone I could sit
Speaker 1: down and have a couple of wine with uh, and
Speaker 1: they look like someone who would be a Roman emperor,
Speaker 1: and they act that way too, as low as the
Speaker 1: bar is for well behaving emperors. If this person looks different,
Speaker 1: if they as though they are from a foreign culture
Speaker 1: than the average Roman citizen and the average Roman soldier
Speaker 1: and the average Senate member, may feel on some level
Speaker 1: less like members of the Roman Empire, more like members
Speaker 1: of an occupied state, you know what I mean. There's
Speaker 1: there's a lot to be said for this. Now, these
Speaker 1: things are all happening, This kind of soup is stirring
Speaker 1: and simmering. The party arrives in Rome, and when they
Speaker 1: get to Rome, a lot of people who remained loyal
Speaker 1: to Macronus are executed the way Macronus and his son
Speaker 1: were killed, and a lot of people in the Senate
Speaker 1: are left alone. They already got those letters of amnesty
Speaker 1: and reconciliation. However, other high ranking imperial officers whose loyalty
Speaker 1: was in question, they were at the very least dismissed,
Speaker 1: and then they were just so ridiculous. They were replaced
Speaker 1: by goons from Syria, people that just like the the
Speaker 1: grand mother and the kid liked them, and Ellie Gabolus
Speaker 1: again he's a teenager. He's ignoring most of like the
Speaker 1: day to day job of being an emperor, the details,
Speaker 1: the decisions. UH, this is left up to his mother
Speaker 1: and his grandmother, who become the first women who are
Speaker 1: given permission to attend the Roman Senate, and they're even
Speaker 1: given senatorial positions. So we'll we'll see this pattern. I
Speaker 1: would argue that his mother and his grandmother were probably
Speaker 1: well qualified to be in the Senate, but we see
Speaker 1: this pattern of this emperor hiring unqualified people for very
Speaker 1: important positions. And you know, long story short. The way
Speaker 1: they write it in UH and an article by history
Speaker 1: things is this it could only go downhill from there.
Speaker 1: It's not a it's not an exaggeration because as soon
Speaker 1: as this guy is in Rome emperoring full time, he's
Speaker 1: just he's a wash and controversy. It's one thing after
Speaker 1: the other. It's always something with Ella Gabilus, that's right,
Speaker 1: because it seems that more important to him, uh than
Speaker 1: the idea of being the emperor of Rome was what
Speaker 1: we talked about at the very beginning of the episode.
Speaker 1: This identity that was very important to him as being
Speaker 1: the high priest of Ella gabal Um, it was you know,
Speaker 1: the emperor stuff wasn't that much importance to him. Uh,
Speaker 1: it wasn't really something that was top of mind. Um
Speaker 1: so and and and yet he is at the pinnacle
Speaker 1: of power in Rome and in this position where he
Speaker 1: can essentially do what he wants. I mean, obviously we
Speaker 1: know that, uh, this can have really gnarly implications over time.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's hard to convince somebody who has
Speaker 1: absolute power that they are going to be their own
Speaker 1: undoing right. Yeah, it's not something that they want to hear,
Speaker 1: you know. And the thing is, in social environments like this, Uh,
Speaker 1: syncophants have the advantage the yes folk will tend to
Speaker 1: win the emperor's opinion. So something happens almost immediately that
Speaker 1: scandalizes the population, from members of Senate to just the
Speaker 1: average Jewish and Christian people living in the empire. As
Speaker 1: you said, no, Ali Gablus feels I guess the best
Speaker 1: way to say it is he feels like a high
Speaker 1: priest who later became emperor but is still a priest.
Speaker 1: And so he says, away with the old religions. We're
Speaker 1: going to replace the old traditional religion of Rome in
Speaker 1: a large part stolen from the Greeks with this other
Speaker 1: religion that I'm a high priest of the worship of
Speaker 1: Ella gabal This Syrian god is even going to replace Jupiter,
Speaker 1: the the primary god of Roman mythology. And so to
Speaker 1: do this, this is what I feel like his love
Speaker 1: crafty And I might just be reading tea leaves here,
Speaker 1: or you know what, I just love horror stories. Anyway,
Speaker 1: to to do this, to make this official in his mind,
Speaker 1: Eli Gablus has a stone brought from Syria nearly two
Speaker 1: thousand miles to Rome. It's a symbol of his religion.
Speaker 1: It's a black, conical shaped rock that may have been
Speaker 1: a meteorite, and he installs it on the Palatine Hill,
Speaker 1: which is a you know, a prestigious place, so it's
Speaker 1: clearly visible. This is where we introduce Cassius Dio. Cassius
Speaker 1: Dio writes a thing called Roman History. He is one
Speaker 1: of the people who has on written record called the
Speaker 1: simper the false Antoninus Uh. And what what did he
Speaker 1: have to say about? Oh, quite a bit, Ben, quite
Speaker 1: a bit he had. He had some pretty early historical
Speaker 1: hot takes to offer um. He said of the false
Speaker 1: Antoninus Uh. The offense consisted not in his introducing a
Speaker 1: foreign god into Rome, okay, or in his exulting in
Speaker 1: very strange ways, but in his placing him even before
Speaker 1: Jupiter himself and causing himself to be voted his priest.
Speaker 1: So just just to take a pause here, he's essentially
Speaker 1: saying that he was trying to subplant, uh, the popular religion,
Speaker 1: you know, which was was very very important to to
Speaker 1: to the Roman people and to the Yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: important part here. It's important to the Roman people. I mean,
Speaker 1: you could argue that in the same way religion is
Speaker 1: used as a political tool in America today or in
Speaker 1: in just you know, geo political affairs. Uh, in Rome
Speaker 1: likely you know, sure, there are some true believers in
Speaker 1: the Senate and and in politics, but it was largely
Speaker 1: a tool to really control people. And when you turn
Speaker 1: the people against you, that's going to cause some problems. Okay.
Speaker 1: So not only did he supplant the popular religion of choice,
Speaker 1: he also made himself like the head of it. It's
Speaker 1: like appointing yourself the pope of a religion that nobody
Speaker 1: wants anything to do with. Um. Furthermore, this is back
Speaker 1: to Cassius Dio. He was frequently seen even in public,
Speaker 1: clad in the barbaric dress which the Syrian priests used,
Speaker 1: And this had as much to do as anything with
Speaker 1: his receiving the nickname the Assyrian. Long story short, Ella
Speaker 1: Gabolist does not care. He builds a temple called the
Speaker 1: Elligaballium to this, to this god, on that same hill
Speaker 1: where the stone now rest. He continues the schedule of
Speaker 1: sacrifices to the stone and the god cows and sheep.
Speaker 1: For sure. Some of the more sensationally counsel alleged that
Speaker 1: humans were sacrificed in honor of this god of the mountain,
Speaker 1: and wine was mixed with blood from the sacrifice is
Speaker 1: poured out as offerings. Apparently he didn't respect any other
Speaker 1: religious movement other, you know, aside from his own. Because
Speaker 1: he's the high priest. It's good to be king, high
Speaker 1: priest and emperor. You're like double king. That's amazing. So
Speaker 1: imagine the equivalent of pr agency, his his supporters, his
Speaker 1: real masters, the mom and the grandmother. Like Okay, we
Speaker 1: gotta do something, we gotta manage the public image. Let's
Speaker 1: get married to a respectable family or families. That's right. Uh,
Speaker 1: this is like a political maneuver like a diplomatic kind
Speaker 1: of play. Let's say. Uh. He would ultimately go on
Speaker 1: to have three wives, uh, one of which was a
Speaker 1: Julia Julia Paula uh Annia Faustina, and Aquilia Severa um.
Speaker 1: And the last of those, Aquilia Severa, was a particularly
Speaker 1: contentious one in terms of the way it was received
Speaker 1: by the public because she was known as what was
Speaker 1: called a vestal virgin, which ben is a term that
Speaker 1: I think we we were here thrown around sort of
Speaker 1: in like colloquial, could be thrown around like colloquially, but
Speaker 1: it was absolutely like a thing, right, like a particularly
Speaker 1: high um. Not don't necessarily, but it was yeah, sacred
Speaker 1: almost right, Yeah, absolutely So the vessel virgins were consecrated
Speaker 1: to Vesta. Part of their consecration involved a vow of chastity,
Speaker 1: and their job was to keep the sacred fire burning
Speaker 1: at the goddesses alter vessel virgins. By the way, we
Speaker 1: don't do comic book recommendations where we used to. Vessel
Speaker 1: virgins appear in a great comic series called Britannia, which
Speaker 1: I recommend checking out. It's uh, no spoilers, it's a
Speaker 1: nero is in this one not uh Elagabolos, but who
Speaker 1: he deserves his own comic or his grandmother certainly does.
Speaker 1: But you're right, vessel virgins are real things. So in
Speaker 1: attempting to assimilate further into Roman society and get approval
Speaker 1: from the well to do Romans at the time, that
Speaker 1: he goes too far. And now he offends them even
Speaker 1: more because he's knocking up vestal virgins. And he says, uh,
Speaker 1: he also doesn't care. He says, quote, there's nothing more
Speaker 1: appropriate than the marriage of a priest to a priestess.
Speaker 1: He says this to the Senate, and then he also
Speaker 1: he also says they will have god like children. He's like,
Speaker 1: you don't understand where this is like a super soldier program.
Speaker 1: That's interesting, Ben, because I mean, I gotta wonder, like
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to me that he's I think he's
Speaker 1: just a little bit clueless maybe and not like outright
Speaker 1: trying to piss people off. Like I really wonder if
Speaker 1: he is trying to, like, looking at this is almost
Speaker 1: a gesture of like joining my religion to your religion
Speaker 1: and creating some sort of h ybread super deity that
Speaker 1: has the powers the superpowers of both you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Yeah, that's it. I mean, that's a really good,
Speaker 1: good point. Definitely there's arrogance in there. That's you know,
Speaker 1: you're raised as a high priest, you become emperor. But
Speaker 1: it may be that he simply culturally did not understand,
Speaker 1: like he may not have been trying to purposely bait
Speaker 1: people or be a source of such controversy. He keeps going,
Speaker 1: and he's so extra. He has these elaborate processions where elephants, tigers,
Speaker 1: and lions are pulling chariots up the Vatican Hill and
Speaker 1: they're trampling over these tombs that are in their way,
Speaker 1: so like they're going through this graveyard. And then he
Speaker 1: also he also has this weird kind of lottery system
Speaker 1: that he plays with giving away stuff. Uh. He likes
Speaker 1: to go to the population, Like while he's presiding at
Speaker 1: various games, he likes to go to the population and
Speaker 1: give them what he calls chances. They're essentially presents that
Speaker 1: are completely arbitrarying up to him. Like one day he
Speaker 1: might throw a nice steak out in the crowd, or
Speaker 1: hundreds of gold coins. And he did this because he
Speaker 1: liked to watch people run and scramble in the dirt
Speaker 1: for this stuff. But then another day he might just
Speaker 1: throw out a dead dog. You never know what you're
Speaker 1: gonna get on the La Gabolas show exactly. It really
Speaker 1: is kind of a weird twisted lotto. Um, did we
Speaker 1: talk about the the next kind of big public or
Speaker 1: fuffle the divorce? Oh no we didn't, but yes, there
Speaker 1: was a divorce. There were several divorces. Remember Paula, That
Speaker 1: was Julia, Julia Paula. Uh. He divorced her claiming that
Speaker 1: she had some kind of blemish on her body. Uh,
Speaker 1: and that was his first wife. And in doing that,
Speaker 1: before the divorce was official, he uh basically moved in
Speaker 1: with Aquila severa Um. So that was against the law,
Speaker 1: against Roman law and custom, and also because she was
Speaker 1: the one that was consecrated to vesta Um and he,
Speaker 1: according to the account from Cassius Dio, impiously defiled her. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: impiously defiled. And in order to prevent further controversy, that
Speaker 1: marriage was also dissolved. So pictures prt history will tell
Speaker 1: you this guy had between three to five wives, so
Speaker 1: he was he was going through it, and he was
Speaker 1: also doing stuff like throwing parties where he might serve
Speaker 1: fake food just for the lulls, like food made of
Speaker 1: wax or marble or stone. And there's one story, unproven, unconfirmed,
Speaker 1: that says, once upon a time he threw so many
Speaker 1: flower pedals on his dinner guests that some of them
Speaker 1: almost suffocated. But these are these are childish pranks. And
Speaker 1: there is a reason we called him the Whoopee cushion
Speaker 1: and berth at the top. Uh, there is stuff we
Speaker 1: have to mention. Now, this may not be appropriate for
Speaker 1: all audiences. We're gonna maybe know I I proposed that
Speaker 1: maybe we veer away from stuff that might be too
Speaker 1: too graphic. Yeah for sure. Okay, but we have to
Speaker 1: talk about his reputation for being an absolute headonist for sure.
Speaker 1: You know, like I said, I was setting up for
Speaker 1: that at the top of the show with that underground quote,
Speaker 1: the whole taste of the whip situation. But his his
Speaker 1: stuff went even deeper than just your every day you
Speaker 1: know the kinks, right. Yeah, yeah, So he had he
Speaker 1: had the street rep as a guy who just couldn't
Speaker 1: control himself and didn't bother to. Uh. The Augustine History
Speaker 1: describes it as this quote. He had never had intercourse
Speaker 1: with the same woman twice except his wife. And he
Speaker 1: opened brothels in his house for his friends, his clients,
Speaker 1: and his slaves. On one occasion, he gathered all the
Speaker 1: city's prostitutes in the forum and appeared before them in
Speaker 1: a woman's costume and with protruded bosom. And it's this
Speaker 1: that actually, uh, you know, and and and I think
Speaker 1: it was that YouTube video that that we we talked
Speaker 1: about Ben sort of credits him as being one of
Speaker 1: the first trans people in history. Yes, yeah, we'll come
Speaker 1: to find out that. According to a couple of sources, uh,
Speaker 1: he once went to physicians and asked for surgery uh,
Speaker 1: and wanted them to construct female genitalium and his body.
Speaker 1: And because this story is found in Cassius Dio and
Speaker 1: not the other two ancient sources, it's it's still up
Speaker 1: for debate. Uh. He also reportedly was attempted to become
Speaker 1: a unique priest of a sort a real this is
Speaker 1: a real thing called a gallus, but he was convinced
Speaker 1: to undergo just circumcision instead. So that you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot culturally that doesn't quite translate. But to your point, yeah,
Speaker 1: there is something to this. People have argued this case
Speaker 1: about his gender identification. He was a sidemail at birth.
Speaker 1: But um, the language I think didn't really exist to
Speaker 1: describe this at the time. Um. Either way, Rome is
Speaker 1: just continually scandalized by this, Yes, and for sure. Uh.
Speaker 1: And what we're talking about here with this like forum
Speaker 1: kind of event was it's essentially like a sexual Olympics,
Speaker 1: almost with him as the sole judge, right. Um. And
Speaker 1: there were charioteers and athletes and slaves that would participate
Speaker 1: in this and that would also attend to his individual
Speaker 1: private uh sexual needs. Um. And he became so fond
Speaker 1: of a particular charioteer named Heracles. Uh he started referring
Speaker 1: to him openly as his husband. UM. And he you
Speaker 1: know had a kind of a you know, a harom
Speaker 1: I guess of of lovers on the side. Like you said, Ben,
Speaker 1: he never claimed to never have sex with the same
Speaker 1: person more than once, except for his wife. But it
Speaker 1: did seem like Heracles would have been uh in this
Speaker 1: smaller group of recurring UM lovers would have been you
Speaker 1: know a little bit different. But he you know, would
Speaker 1: gravitate towards those that were open to his particular kinks
Speaker 1: and and would allow him to kind of discover uh
Speaker 1: and push these boundaries right. Yeah, there's there's even this
Speaker 1: story that Elligabolos would deliberately put himself in situations where
Speaker 1: he would be discovered sleeping with other people entirely in
Speaker 1: the hopes that his husband hero cles would quote unquote
Speaker 1: punish him. So so this very I agree, there's a
Speaker 1: little bit of kink to this so long story short,
Speaker 1: doesn't take much for all the people who are disapproving
Speaker 1: of this guy to start talking about him and saying,
Speaker 1: you know, he's unsuited for the role of emperor. He
Speaker 1: spends so much more time dancing around that gosh darn
Speaker 1: temple and buying exotic food and gold chamber pots. He
Speaker 1: doesn't like what what emperoren does this guy actually do
Speaker 1: and their uprisings, especially in some of the more distant provinces. Uh.
Speaker 1: This is weird because picture elli Abolis still young while
Speaker 1: and out his whole life is like an episode of
Speaker 1: MTVS cribs. Uh. But every so often, maybe in the
Speaker 1: middle of the night, he's looking out the window and
Speaker 1: he's thinking of what that Syrian oracle told him long ago.
Speaker 1: It makes me think of Searcy and Game of Thrones,
Speaker 1: who is visited by an oracle or of a seer
Speaker 1: when she's a child and is told that like everyone
Speaker 1: she loves is going to die and all this stuff.
Speaker 1: Um to have that in your head, you know, and
Speaker 1: it caused you to maybe act a certain way because
Speaker 1: a lot of stock was put into these types of predictions. Uh.
Speaker 1: And and he was warned by this oracle that he
Speaker 1: should expect a short life and a violent death. Um.
Speaker 1: And so again he um. It's in the same way
Speaker 1: that Searcy was always trying to keep people at arms
Speaker 1: length and protect her children and all of that. Um.
Speaker 1: He preferred the idea of being in control, being able
Speaker 1: to kill himself rather than being assassinated. So he kept
Speaker 1: the stockpile of silver, daggers and poison. Uh. And he
Speaker 1: had a tall tower built and adorned with diamonds and gold,
Speaker 1: so that at the moment when he you know, like
Speaker 1: the Hitler Bunker type moment um, he would ascend this
Speaker 1: tower and throw himself to his death before being taken
Speaker 1: alive and tortured and then ultimately you know, killed him.
Speaker 1: M hmm. There's all the story to find out that. Uh.
Speaker 1: He apparently also only wore Chinese silk when when possible,
Speaker 1: because he wanted to leave a good looking corpse, right
Speaker 1: despite all of all of his preparations, the Tower of
Speaker 1: the Daggers and so on. Uh, he had an ignoble end.
Speaker 1: His grandmother masterminded the end of his career. She convinced
Speaker 1: him to adopt his twelve year old cousin, Alexander, as
Speaker 1: his official successor. Alexander, not being completely crazy, became kind
Speaker 1: of popular throughout Roman society, doubtlessly because he had the
Speaker 1: support of people who wanted anyone but Ellie Gable us here. Uh.
Speaker 1: So Ellie Gables smells something on the wind. Uh, he
Speaker 1: thinks his us in as a serious rival, starts planning
Speaker 1: to kill this twelve year old, and so the family
Speaker 1: argues about it. March eleven, two c e Elecapitlis orders
Speaker 1: the execution of his cousin and the Praetorian guard refuses.
Speaker 1: They support Alexander instead. Twists feels like a coup. H
Speaker 1: They were probably bribed by the Emperor's grandmother. She bribes
Speaker 1: a lot of people in this story. Yea, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but why she was seeing the tides turning right, the
Speaker 1: tides of public support completely turning and and and away
Speaker 1: from you. Know, her grandson who she had installed through
Speaker 1: the same type of behavior, the same type of underhanded
Speaker 1: double dealings, and now she sees the end in sight
Speaker 1: right for her. Yeah, that's right, that's right. So this
Speaker 1: is a move of self preservation. Remember we said this
Speaker 1: emperor was not really doing the day to day stuff,
Speaker 1: so who was probably blee Julia, probably the grandmother orchestrating
Speaker 1: the moves of the empire. So from her perspective, if
Speaker 1: I can slot out my crazy grandson who's not really
Speaker 1: working out and put in this other kid who's not
Speaker 1: as crazy but as younger and more pliable, then I
Speaker 1: can just continue business as usual, you know. So she watches,
Speaker 1: she watches Ella Gabolus gets stabbed to death by his
Speaker 1: own soldiers at the age of eighteen, and his mother,
Speaker 1: Julia's daughter, is executed as well, headed, dragged through the streets. Eventually,
Speaker 1: I think they try to dump them in a sewer,
Speaker 1: but the sewers too small or something, and they tried
Speaker 1: to dump they dumped. I know that at one point
Speaker 1: they do dump his headless body into the river, the
Speaker 1: Tyber River. Yeah, yeah, I read that. Uh, they tried
Speaker 1: the sewer first, that it wouldn't work, and so they said, okay,
Speaker 1: let's tie something heavy to this body and then throw
Speaker 1: it an the river. Uh. That's not that's not a
Speaker 1: peaceful way to go. As soon as the Senate hears
Speaker 1: about it, they condemn his memory. They immediately name Alexinus
Speaker 1: the new emperor who becomes who rules until two d
Speaker 1: and thirty five when he is also you guess if
Speaker 1: folks assassinated emperor, is it like a good job to
Speaker 1: keep while you have it? But their retirement plan is terrible?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, I mean you never really hear
Speaker 1: about many emperors living to the ripe old age of
Speaker 1: of of whatever thirty I guess would have been for
Speaker 1: the time, and and retiring you know, uh peacefully usually
Speaker 1: involves a lot of stabby stabs. And this this ends
Speaker 1: the story of Ella Gables too, so we're not ending
Speaker 1: completely dire note. Uh. At dinner parties, he was also
Speaker 1: known to slip what he called air pillows under his
Speaker 1: friends of low status. Those are animal platters, so those
Speaker 1: were whoopee cushions. It wasn't all terrible. Yeah, I'm picturing this.
Speaker 1: So you would literally take a dried, a cured of
Speaker 1: some kind animal bladder, Uh, and blow it up and
Speaker 1: then you sit on it and then make up a
Speaker 1: fart sound. Ye. So so this so that's not the
Speaker 1: most light noe. But this is this is a really
Speaker 1: interesting story and it has so much, it has so
Speaker 1: much tied into it. I think one important thing we
Speaker 1: can say there are a lot of takeaways for us
Speaker 1: in the modern day, but one important thing we can
Speaker 1: say here, nol is that we're pretty lucky, uh not
Speaker 1: to live in an age where an entire nation can
Speaker 1: be ruled by a twelve or fourteen year old. I
Speaker 1: hope that's not a hot take. I'm glad. I'm glad that.
Speaker 1: I'm glad. You have to have a few more qualifications
Speaker 1: than just the genetic lottery of birth. Oh totally. And
Speaker 1: the more we whenever we do these types of you know,
Speaker 1: uh insane Roman, you know, unhinged leader stories, it really
Speaker 1: does make me realize that George RR. Martin was definitely,
Speaker 1: I think, pulling just as much influence from this part
Speaker 1: of history and this part of the world than he
Speaker 1: was from say European history. Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know,
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones has a huge basis in the War
Speaker 1: of the Ruses, but Martin pulls from uh so many
Speaker 1: other cultures and societies in quite a great way. George,
Speaker 1: if you happen to listen to this podcast, turn it off,
Speaker 1: get back to writing Winds of Winter. Man. I've got
Speaker 1: your back. I know it's tough. I think he's checked
Speaker 1: out at this point. Ben, I don't know. I'm not
Speaker 1: giving up on this doll. I'm not giving up. He's
Speaker 1: he's gonna make that book. It's gonna be fantastic, And
Speaker 1: I am never going to start a fantasy series again
Speaker 1: unless the thing is already written in its entirety. Maybe
Speaker 1: he's just waiting for the backlash to die down a
Speaker 1: little bit from that abysmal ending of the series. Uh
Speaker 1: So people kind of give people a change as to forget,
Speaker 1: because I think it might be a tall order people
Speaker 1: who are so let down by that ending to go
Speaker 1: ahead and pick up a book and like rehash it
Speaker 1: all over again, just to see if he does a
Speaker 1: better job when you don't necessarily know if you they
Speaker 1: did or not. Yeah, that's true. It's a shrewd Injur's
Speaker 1: plot at this point, isn't it. We don't know? Uh
Speaker 1: but uh yeah, I know a lot of people were
Speaker 1: disappointed with with that last season, but how how wonderful
Speaker 1: uh the good moments of it were. You know, agree,
Speaker 1: no spoilers that people haven't seen it, um, but you know,
Speaker 1: uh in in trying times like this, NOL super producer
Speaker 1: Casey Pegram, I like to uh lift my spirits with
Speaker 1: a warm cup of Joe in my Ridiculous history mug.
Speaker 1: How how how pointless is it to plug this on
Speaker 1: our audio podcast? Not not pointless at all, Ben, because
Speaker 1: you two can see, not only can you see what
Speaker 1: this beautiful piece of ceramics looks like, you can get
Speaker 1: one for yourself along with t shirts uh and other
Speaker 1: you know, a Kucherman like I believe you can get
Speaker 1: yourself a mouse pad. Um. And there's a bunch of
Speaker 1: new designs on here that are pretty cool. So you
Speaker 1: can see this and more by going to t public
Speaker 1: dot com slash Ridiculous. Thanks as always to our super
Speaker 1: producer Casey Pegram, our research associate, the confirmed un crazy
Speaker 1: Gabe Bluesier uh, and thanks to Eaves Jeff Cope, Pure
Speaker 1: podcast or host of several great shows here at the network.
Speaker 1: Huge thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Super
Speaker 1: producer Casey Pegram, Christopher Haciotes here in spirit, soon to
Speaker 1: be here corporeally or at least podcast early um and
Speaker 1: thanks to you, Ben, this is a fun one or
Speaker 1: very you know, fun being a loose term agreed agreed
Speaker 1: on all cowds. Thanks so much, we'll see you next time, Cooks.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.