Speaker 1: M Beau. If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Software Up Radio, Special Operations, military news
Speaker 1: and straight talk with the guys and the community. Hello again, everyone,
Speaker 1: Welcome to Software Radio, Software Radio, Long time on Target.
Speaker 1: I'm your host this morning, Steve Belisbury joining us today
Speaker 1: we have a very very special guest, Francis Gary Powers Jr.
Speaker 1: The son of Gary Powers As who everyone knows was
Speaker 1: the YouTube pilot that was shot down over the Soviet
Speaker 1: Union back during the Cold War. UM and Gary is
Speaker 1: a very interesting person in his own right. He was
Speaker 1: born during the Cold War in California, UM. He graduated
Speaker 1: from cal State l A with a degree in philosophy
Speaker 1: as a master's from George Mason University, as well as
Speaker 1: another master's from Adam State University in Colorado. He's the
Speaker 1: founder and chairman emeritus of the Cold War Museum, which
Speaker 1: is located at the Cold War Army base ben Hill
Speaker 1: Farms just outside of Washington, d C. Well, it used
Speaker 1: to be back in the day. It's probably a lot
Speaker 1: farther now because of traffic. But he founded the museum
Speaker 1: in to honor Cold War veterans and pervert preserved Cold
Speaker 1: War history. So before we get into all of that,
Speaker 1: we want to welcome Gary to the podcast. Gary, thanks
Speaker 1: for taking the time this morning. It is our pleasure. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you very much, Step for inviting me to be on.
Speaker 1: I'll look forward to chatting you with you about Cold
Speaker 1: War history. Yeah. Absolutely, And let's jump right into this.
Speaker 1: That you know, the son of Gary Powers, you grew up.
Speaker 1: I mean, you knew somewhat about your father, but you
Speaker 1: know after reading your book, and I want to mention
Speaker 1: this before we go any further than Gary's book is
Speaker 1: called Spy Pilot Francis Gary Powers, the YouTube incident in
Speaker 1: a controversial co war legacy. And in the book you
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, not really knowing the true story
Speaker 1: about your dad, and you know, what was it like
Speaker 1: for you growing up while your dad was still alive. Well,
Speaker 1: for me growing up in this family, it was normal.
Speaker 1: I mean I knew Dad had been shot down, imprisoned,
Speaker 1: exchanged by the Soviets for a Russian spy, but I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that was special. I was a kid. I
Speaker 1: just didn't comprehend the significance of it when I was
Speaker 1: growing up. When Dad died on August one of seventy
Speaker 1: in a helicopter crash while working for NBC Television. That's
Speaker 1: when I became aware of the historical significance of what
Speaker 1: he had gone through. But by that time it was
Speaker 1: too late to ask him questions since he had just
Speaker 1: passed away and so um throughout high school, that was
Speaker 1: a little challenging for me. But then in college I
Speaker 1: came out of my shell. I was curious. I started
Speaker 1: doing research, and over the last thirty plus years, I've
Speaker 1: done all this research, talking to his contemporaries, getting oral
Speaker 1: and written histories from people that knew him that had
Speaker 1: been unpublished, getting FOYA or declassified files from the CIA
Speaker 1: and the Air Force. That I really put this puzzle
Speaker 1: together and found out the truth of what took place.
Speaker 1: And that was the whole goal when I started doing
Speaker 1: my research, was to find out the truth of what
Speaker 1: took place. So I knew how to answer questions. As
Speaker 1: a kid, I would get these questions from people, my
Speaker 1: peers at school or t cheers or even strangers asking
Speaker 1: about my father, Oh, you're Gary Power's son. Did he
Speaker 1: do this, did he do that? Why didn't he do
Speaker 1: this or that? And at the time I didn't know
Speaker 1: the answers. So over the last thirty plus years I
Speaker 1: figured out the answers and my book was published in
Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, and it sets the record straight. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny because you you talked about
Speaker 1: this in in in the book and how there was
Speaker 1: such a I guess diverse uh h, I guess kind
Speaker 1: of thought over whether your father did something wrong or
Speaker 1: he was a hero. And I remember growing up in
Speaker 1: that error. As we talked offline, Um, you know, in
Speaker 1: elementary school, we were under the impression that he had
Speaker 1: done something wrong, that there was something, you know, and
Speaker 1: the teachers in elementary school gave us the impression that
Speaker 1: your dad had did something wrong. And as I told
Speaker 1: you later on, in high school, we had a teacher
Speaker 1: that was a you know, retired Navy captain and he
Speaker 1: was telling us no, Gary Powers was a was a hero.
Speaker 1: And it was very confusing for those of us growing up.
Speaker 1: And I can imagine, you know, being the son of
Speaker 1: Gary Powers, it had to have been very confusing when
Speaker 1: all of this, you know, when you started your ah,
Speaker 1: your research into this, and you know, um, you know,
Speaker 1: when you talk about your dad, you know, what was
Speaker 1: he like growing up? Was he just your your typical
Speaker 1: dad that happened to be a pilot, you know, did
Speaker 1: he did he ever give any inkling that there was
Speaker 1: something special there that had happened to him. Well, Dad
Speaker 1: was for the most part, UM, very down to earth individual.
Speaker 1: His profession was a pilot. That's what he did to
Speaker 1: support his family. He flew for the military between fifty
Speaker 1: two and six, he was with the YouTube program from
Speaker 1: fifty six to sixty two years in a Soviet jail
Speaker 1: from sixty to sixty two, and then when he got home, Um,
Speaker 1: he ended up being a test pilot for Lockheed, flying
Speaker 1: the U twos between sixty three and seventy, and then
Speaker 1: flying for radio and television stations in Los Angeles from
Speaker 1: seventy two to seventy seven. So his whole career, for
Speaker 1: the most part, was being a pilot, and that's what
Speaker 1: he wanted to do, what he loved to do, that
Speaker 1: was his passion. UM. So, as I was growing up
Speaker 1: in this family, and I was aware that Dad had
Speaker 1: been shot down and prisoned and ultimately exchanged, but it
Speaker 1: just it, I didn't understand the significance um dad was.
Speaker 1: Um didn't overtly go out and talk about his experiences,
Speaker 1: but if people um invited him to go to a
Speaker 1: meaning and talk, he would um. He also wrote a
Speaker 1: book called Operation an Overflight back in nineteen seventy that
Speaker 1: detailed his account of his experiences, and he was on
Speaker 1: the lecture circuit for two or three years between seventy
Speaker 1: and seventy two. Some of your listeners might remember the
Speaker 1: Soupy Sales Show or the Johnny Carson Show, and during
Speaker 1: that time period he would be on those type of
Speaker 1: shows talking about his experiences, promoting his book. So Dad,
Speaker 1: for the most part, was just, you know, a Virginia gentleman.
Speaker 1: His handshake was his word. If he shook your hand,
Speaker 1: he'd fulfill his part of the obligation. Uh. And he
Speaker 1: was one of the best pilots of the era selected
Speaker 1: for the YouTube program. Yeah. And I think that's you know,
Speaker 1: what people lose sight of is your father was not
Speaker 1: a spy. He didn't join the CIA. He joined the
Speaker 1: Air Force. He was an Air Force pilot and he
Speaker 1: was selected for this very obviously sensitive mission. And I
Speaker 1: think that's important to remember because it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you know, he's he didn't sign him to James Bond.
Speaker 1: He signed him to be a pilot, and it just
Speaker 1: so happened that, you know, all of the events that
Speaker 1: were going on with the Soviet Union at that time,
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of younger Americans don't realize
Speaker 1: they the tension that was going on between the US
Speaker 1: and the Soviet Union at that time. Yeah, that's right,
Speaker 1: the tension between our two countries, the US and the
Speaker 1: Soviet Union between forty five, the end of World War
Speaker 1: Two up through when the colous Soviet Union collapsed. There
Speaker 1: was the fear of a nuclear war, there was a
Speaker 1: fear of a surprise attack. There was a lot of
Speaker 1: tensions between the Soviets and the Americans, and that tension
Speaker 1: is really what guided the Cold War through that forty
Speaker 1: six year period of time. The Cuban missile crisis in
Speaker 1: sixty two was basically the apex of the Cold War.
Speaker 1: The U two incident that happened in May of sixty
Speaker 1: was also one of the highlights of the Cold War.
Speaker 1: And I believe that that time period between May one
Speaker 1: ext team when my father was shot down in October
Speaker 1: sixty two, when the Cuban missile crisis happened, that was
Speaker 1: really the the epitome of the Cold War. The hottest
Speaker 1: or the closest we came to a nuclear confrontation. Between
Speaker 1: those two dates of may Onet when my father was
Speaker 1: shot down. You've got the erection of the Berlin Wall
Speaker 1: in sixty one, increased tensions. You have the Bay of
Speaker 1: Pigs in late sixty one or early sixty one, more tension,
Speaker 1: and then that ended up being Uh. The tensions really
Speaker 1: accumulated with the Cuban missile crisis in October sixty two.
Speaker 1: So for students today that are studying Cold War history,
Speaker 1: it's usually the last week of school and they brush
Speaker 1: over it. They hear about the Cuban Missile crisis because
Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy was involved in that one, But for
Speaker 1: the most part, they don't really know or understand what
Speaker 1: happened with the USS Liberty incident, the US is Pueblo incident,
Speaker 1: the U two incident. Uh. The spy satellites we have
Speaker 1: going around in orbit, now, that was the result of
Speaker 1: the Cold War, the cat and mouse game that we
Speaker 1: aid with the Soviets trying to find out their strengths
Speaker 1: and weaknesses while we they were trying to find out
Speaker 1: hours and it was just really a global, international, multidimensional
Speaker 1: chess game. That could have resulted in the end of
Speaker 1: the world, but fortunately it did not. Right, And you
Speaker 1: know too, to refresh our listeners memories on this because
Speaker 1: a lot of people probably don't remember a lot of
Speaker 1: the details on it. Uh. I know, we could talk
Speaker 1: for hours about the mission and what happened, but can
Speaker 1: you give our listeners, you know, a brief overview of
Speaker 1: what that last mission you know, entailed, and how your
Speaker 1: father ended up being captured and why a lot of
Speaker 1: people didn't believe that he didn't do anything wrong at
Speaker 1: that time because um, you know, at that time, we
Speaker 1: thought our YouTube spy planes were invulnerable, right, So, um,
Speaker 1: the whole reason that the YouTube program became into existence
Speaker 1: was that President and Eisenhower at the time, along with
Speaker 1: Alan Dullis out of the CIA, they were trying to
Speaker 1: figure out the strengths and weaknesses of our adversary, the
Speaker 1: Soviet Union. During that time period of the Cold War,
Speaker 1: it was very difficult to get ground agents James Bond
Speaker 1: type of spies into the Soviet Union. Uh. They were
Speaker 1: a closed cities, they were close society, Their maps were
Speaker 1: not accurate. There was no real good information that could
Speaker 1: be obtained by a ground agent because it was so
Speaker 1: difficult to move around in the Soviet Union, and so
Speaker 1: because of the rhetoric that the cru chef was saying
Speaker 1: at the time about how they have more missiles than
Speaker 1: we do, they have more bombers than we do, that
Speaker 1: they're going to bury us. That type of rhetoric contributed
Speaker 1: to the United States desire to find out their strengths
Speaker 1: and weaknesses to protect Americans at home by finding out
Speaker 1: what type of military strengths the weapons that these Soviets had.
Speaker 1: So the YouTube pro Graham was created in nineteen fifty five,
Speaker 1: first operational July fourth, fifty six, and the plane that
Speaker 1: was designed by Kelly Johnson out of Lockheed the skunk
Speaker 1: Works Burbank, California at the time. Uh he designed this
Speaker 1: airplane that would fly at seventy thousand feet or above.
Speaker 1: And this airplane was state of the art in the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. Um it could go four up to new
Speaker 1: nine ten eleven hours at seventy thousand feet taking photographs
Speaker 1: of military installations and other strengths and weaknesses of our adversaries. So,
Speaker 1: for the first four years between fifty six and sixty,
Speaker 1: the U twos were flying over the Soviet Union, China, Tibet, India, Pakistan,
Speaker 1: Middle Eastern countries, Eastern European countries taking photographs. The Soviets
Speaker 1: had a weapon called the s A to A a missile,
Speaker 1: but it could only reach sixty thousand feet at the time.
Speaker 1: Between nineteen fifty six and sixty the Soviets improved their
Speaker 1: weapons system. They developed the s A two missile, and
Speaker 1: this new and improved missile could now reach seventy ft um.
Speaker 1: When my father was selected to do the May first mission,
Speaker 1: one of his primary targets was to fly over Spared Lofts,
Speaker 1: which was a city in the central part of the
Speaker 1: Soviet Union, and there had been some other photos taken
Speaker 1: about a month earlier that showed an s A two
Speaker 1: base being developed there. So my father on May one
Speaker 1: was tasked to fly over that region take photos of
Speaker 1: the the missile base to find out if it was operational. Well,
Speaker 1: Dad found out first hand that it was uh the
Speaker 1: new and improved SA two missile. Eight of them were fired.
Speaker 1: One of them exploded behind the tail section of the
Speaker 1: U two at altitude of seventy five feet and as
Speaker 1: a result, Dad was shot out of the sky. He
Speaker 1: was able to bail out and eventually he was captured
Speaker 1: and then um put in jail at the KGB prison Lubianka.
Speaker 1: So at the time when this happened, UH, the American
Speaker 1: intelligence agencies, the c I, A, N, S, A, UH
Speaker 1: and those type of groups were going, you know, the
Speaker 1: Soviets are backwards. This is the height of the Cold War.
Speaker 1: There was a competition between the Soviets and the Americans.
Speaker 1: We thought we were better than them, They thought they
Speaker 1: were better than us. We were always going like the
Speaker 1: space race, you know, it was a challenge who could
Speaker 1: be first to do something. It was bragging rights. And
Speaker 1: so for the United States, we did not believe of
Speaker 1: that the Soviets had the ability to shoot down a YouTube.
Speaker 1: It's the Cold War. It's the Soviets. They're backwards, They're
Speaker 1: not like us. They can't do this. It had to
Speaker 1: be the pilot's fault. Something had to have gone wrong
Speaker 1: that allowed the Soviets to shoot down our aircraft. Because
Speaker 1: of course the Soviets are so far backwards at the
Speaker 1: height of the Cold War, we're gonna blame them or
Speaker 1: or try to discount them for their achievements. And so
Speaker 1: this is part of what led to the controversy that
Speaker 1: surrounded my father at the time. When my father was
Speaker 1: shot down, you know this, this feeling was that, oh, no,
Speaker 1: it can't be the Soviets, they can't develop that type
Speaker 1: of weapons. It had to be the pilot's fault. And
Speaker 1: the primary theories at the time was that he had
Speaker 1: a flame out that forced him to a lower altitude,
Speaker 1: that he defected, that he landed the plane, or that
Speaker 1: something else had happened, um that caused him to be captured.
Speaker 1: The American government at the time just could not bring
Speaker 1: themselves to admit that the Soviets were more advanced than
Speaker 1: we wore in rocket technology. So that was part of
Speaker 1: the contribution, or that's what contributed to my father's reputation
Speaker 1: being tarnished when he was shot down. Now you have
Speaker 1: to fast forward for a bunch of years. Um. Over
Speaker 1: the last fifty plus years, the truth has come out.
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty, it was very limited on what was
Speaker 1: discussed and what was out there in the public domain.
Speaker 1: But now that the Cold War is over, from the
Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act requests have been submitted, a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff has been declassified. With the YouTube program, specifically,
Speaker 1: in nine there was a declassification conference hosted by the
Speaker 1: CIA and the Air Force that really helped to set
Speaker 1: the record straight. And it was a result of that
Speaker 1: conference in that it was shown that the YouTube program,
Speaker 1: which was run by the CIA, a civilian agency, was
Speaker 1: actually a military operation run in conjunction with the US
Speaker 1: Air Force, and for all intent and purposes, um, the
Speaker 1: operation was military. In nineteen sixty when this operation first started,
Speaker 1: it could not be designated as a military operation. Had
Speaker 1: it been a military pilot with a military plane flying
Speaker 1: over a foreign hostile country, that would have been an
Speaker 1: act of war. And so it had to be a
Speaker 1: civilian operation, which is why the CIA handled it initially
Speaker 1: back in the sixties or the fifties. UM. Now that
Speaker 1: classification princes happened and it was shown that it was
Speaker 1: a military operation. That allowed the government to come forward
Speaker 1: and acknowledge that my father is a hero to our country.
Speaker 1: As a result of that the classification conference in h
Speaker 1: the U s. Air Force and the CIA stepped up
Speaker 1: to the plate. They helped to dispel the misinformation. They
Speaker 1: helped to set their record straight and as a result,
Speaker 1: Dad was posthumously awarded the POW Medal Prisoner of War
Speaker 1: Medal for his incarceration in the Soviet Union, and then
Speaker 1: ultimately he was awarded the Silver Star in twelve for
Speaker 1: his participation in the YouTube program and his captivity in
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union as a prisoner for two years. So
Speaker 1: we're very happy as a family that the American government
Speaker 1: was able to help set the record straight and able
Speaker 1: to show that Dad was a hero to our country. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's funny because you know, reading this,
Speaker 1: you know at the time that I think people in
Speaker 1: the government, as you said, you know, they couldn't believe
Speaker 1: that the Russians had the technology, so they automatically assumed
Speaker 1: he did something wrong. But then you know, and I'm
Speaker 1: jumping forward. I'm gonna move backwards in here in a minute.
Speaker 1: But after he returns, and he's been being debriefed constantly
Speaker 1: by the c I, A, and and and the people
Speaker 1: back in Washington, they came to the conclusion, with the
Speaker 1: exception of the then director of CIA, that he didn't
Speaker 1: do anything wrong. What was the sticking point in this
Speaker 1: one director's mind that he refused to accept the truth?
Speaker 1: Did you ever come to did you ever figure out
Speaker 1: why that was? Yeah? Uh? CIA director that followed Alan
Speaker 1: Dulles was John McCone, and UM he at some point
Speaker 1: in time all Dad was in prison, had gone out
Speaker 1: on a limb and said that it was the pilot's fault,
Speaker 1: that he must be a trader, that he had done
Speaker 1: something wrong. And mccon did not want to eat crow.
Speaker 1: He wanted to be right, so he did everything he
Speaker 1: could to show that he was right. My father had
Speaker 1: done something wrong. But regardless of the Pettyman Judge Pettyman
Speaker 1: was conveyed to do a board and evaluate the situation.
Speaker 1: The US Air Force and the CIA conveined a damage
Speaker 1: assessment team UH and a debriefing team when Dad came home,
Speaker 1: and this is what basically happened. The CIA, during the
Speaker 1: debriefings for three weeks in February of two, found out
Speaker 1: that Dad did everything he was supposed to do. He
Speaker 1: followed orders to the t. He did not give out
Speaker 1: any classified information. He did not collaborate with the enemy.
Speaker 1: He followed his orders as directed. UM. Then the Senate
Speaker 1: Select Committee hearing on March six of sixty two, the
Speaker 1: Senators eight hours of deliberations, questions and answers back and forth.
Speaker 1: At the end of that session they give my father
Speaker 1: a standing ovation and they exonerate him of any wrongdoing.
Speaker 1: So the CIA has cleared him, the um Senate, our
Speaker 1: government has cleared him, but the court of public opinion
Speaker 1: has not yet cleared him. And part of that is
Speaker 1: because of all the misinformation in the newspapers saying he
Speaker 1: had defected. He landed the plane intact, he spelled his
Speaker 1: guts or that he hadn't followed orders. And this was
Speaker 1: John mccohen's mindset. He believed that Dad had done something
Speaker 1: wrong and he was going to do everything possible to
Speaker 1: show that he was right and my father had done
Speaker 1: something wrong. Well, at the end of the day, that
Speaker 1: wasn't the case. And even to the point of in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, I want to say, every YouTube pilot
Speaker 1: was awarded the Intelligence Star for Valor by the CIA.
Speaker 1: My father had one in this group, but he was
Speaker 1: not invited to attend the CIA ceremony where these wards
Speaker 1: awards were presented. His was presented to him in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty five, uh, few months prior to mccon leaving office.
Speaker 1: It's one of the fat last things that he had
Speaker 1: to get off this plate and do. And my father,
Speaker 1: when he realized that he had been snubbed. Was not
Speaker 1: too happy. I mean he almost decided to basically say
Speaker 1: shove it and not go to this ceremony to get
Speaker 1: this award. But my mom calmed him down and said, Frank,
Speaker 1: you gotta play nice. You've got to go accept this award.
Speaker 1: They're trying to make up to you for it. And
Speaker 1: so eventually he did receive this in sixty five. But again,
Speaker 1: this all comes down to the the um Cold War
Speaker 1: mentality the Soviets, the Red scare. You were just coming
Speaker 1: off McCarthy era of the fifties. Uh, it was easier
Speaker 1: to blame the pilot than it was to admit that
Speaker 1: we were inferior to the Soviets. M Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, reading all of this in the book,
Speaker 1: it was amazing. And and the fact that, um, I
Speaker 1: guess growing up, we all had this this intense fear
Speaker 1: of the Usians in the KGB, and everyone automatically assumed
Speaker 1: that that, you know, he was tortured, you know, when
Speaker 1: are mistreated really badly by the Russians as soon as
Speaker 1: he was captured. But that really wasn't the case, was it. No. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: now the Soviets did torture certain prisoners and people that
Speaker 1: they had captured. Um. Some of that has now been
Speaker 1: revealed over the last fifty plus years as to what
Speaker 1: had happened. I believe that my father was treated relatively
Speaker 1: well all things considered, because he was so high profile.
Speaker 1: The world knew that the Soviets had him in captivity,
Speaker 1: and the Soviets wanted to show the world how humane
Speaker 1: they wore, how nice they wore, how they treated the
Speaker 1: spies that they caught in their country, as a way
Speaker 1: to further embarrass the United States. They were using my
Speaker 1: father's capture, the show trial, and ultimately the exchange as
Speaker 1: a way to as propaganda to show how nice and
Speaker 1: good they wore and to further embarrass the US. You
Speaker 1: have to remember that the US had executed the Rosenbergs
Speaker 1: in the late fifties. I believe UM, and that when
Speaker 1: they caught Rudolph Able, the Soviet spy, my dad was
Speaker 1: eventually exchanged for they gave him thirty years in prison. Well,
Speaker 1: the Soviets, being such a nice and hospitable country, gave
Speaker 1: my dad ten years in prison, did not give him
Speaker 1: the death sentence. And this was all a way of
Speaker 1: propaganda to show the world how nice that the Soviets war. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's just as part of the cat mouse game
Speaker 1: and part of the way that the Cold War affected
Speaker 1: our two countries. Yeah. And and during your father's trial,
Speaker 1: your grandparents got to and his first wife gets got
Speaker 1: to travel to Moscow. Um. I know you don't have
Speaker 1: any you didn't have any contact with your dad's first wife.
Speaker 1: But did you ever get to talk to your grandparents
Speaker 1: about this time frame? Um? Well, my grandfather, my dad's dad,
Speaker 1: passed away in nineteen seventy. I was five years old,
Speaker 1: so I wasn't really able to talk to him. My
Speaker 1: grandmother passed away back in ninety one and ninety two,
Speaker 1: and I didn't really ask her any questions about it
Speaker 1: at the time. I was still, you know, relatively young, um,
Speaker 1: and didn't really interact with her for the last five
Speaker 1: years for a passing. He was in Virginia, I was
Speaker 1: in California. UM. So I didn't really get to talk
Speaker 1: to my grandparents. But I did talk to my aunts
Speaker 1: and uncles, my dad's sisters, and their husbands about their recollections. UM.
Speaker 1: I was able to find eighty five of my dad's
Speaker 1: letters that he wrote to his parents and his siblings,
Speaker 1: and their responses. So between the letters and the correspondence,
Speaker 1: talking with my aunts and uncles, listening to my dad's
Speaker 1: recorded tapes that he had recorded when he was living,
Speaker 1: I was able to really piece together and find out
Speaker 1: a lot of what took place behind the scenes as
Speaker 1: a result of the You two incident. The whole reason
Speaker 1: I ended up writing the book Spy Pilot was to
Speaker 1: help set the record straight. There was all this misinformation
Speaker 1: out there, all this rumors, these speculations about what took place, UM,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to make sure that the family's version
Speaker 1: of events and activities, the truth of what took place,
Speaker 1: was documented for future generations to read. There's all this
Speaker 1: misinformation online, conspiracy theories and rumors and speculation. Thanks to
Speaker 1: the Internet, it's still out there. Well, at least now
Speaker 1: this book is out there, uh, and there's the truth
Speaker 1: of what took place, UM, so that can also be
Speaker 1: found and read if researchers do their due diligence. The
Speaker 1: whole reason was to I did this book. It was
Speaker 1: a take that was to show what Dad's reputation went through.
Speaker 1: It went from infamy and controversy in the sixties after
Speaker 1: being shot down to that of an American hero today,
Speaker 1: and this book goes through the hind the scenes activities
Speaker 1: as to what the family did to help set the
Speaker 1: record straight. My research that helped to show the truth
Speaker 1: of what took place, and eventually that led to the
Speaker 1: American government posthumously awarding my father those medals as a
Speaker 1: hero to our country. So it was necessary for me
Speaker 1: to do this book basically an honor of my father
Speaker 1: to help set the record straight. Yeah, and one of
Speaker 1: the you you just referenced some of the letters that
Speaker 1: you know, your your dad had written from the prison
Speaker 1: in the Soviet Union, and one of the letters that
Speaker 1: you you posted in in the book was really it
Speaker 1: was it was, I guess it's heart wrenching almost because
Speaker 1: your grandparents read from the New York Times that one
Speaker 1: of the you know, the reporters from the New York
Speaker 1: Times said that your father was planning on remaining in
Speaker 1: this Soviet Union after he was released, that he was
Speaker 1: going to stay there, and he actually had no sources
Speaker 1: on that, and it greatly upset your parents. And I
Speaker 1: can't even begin to fathom how that affected your father,
Speaker 1: who's languishing uh in a Soviet jail. In reading about this,
Speaker 1: which is totally untrue. And can you you fill our
Speaker 1: listeners and our readers in about that, because that, to
Speaker 1: me was like that reading that in the book, I mean,
Speaker 1: it puts the screws to you because you put yourself
Speaker 1: in that position, and I think it's really difficult. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that is corrected. While Dad was in prison, there
Speaker 1: was all this misinformation being released, um, both by both sides. Uh.
Speaker 1: There are editorials in the press saying my father defected,
Speaker 1: landed the plane and pact that he was seen drinking
Speaker 1: Russian vaka at a bar shortly after landing. Um. There
Speaker 1: were other accounts like you just said that he had
Speaker 1: decided to stay in the Soviet Union upon his release. Um.
Speaker 1: And it was all basically the misinformation of the time. Um. Uh.
Speaker 1: Journalists and I say that with tongue in cheek that
Speaker 1: we're writing about something they had no idea about. They
Speaker 1: were fabricating these stories to sell their newspapers at Dad's expense,
Speaker 1: And so all this rumor and misinformation was released that
Speaker 1: clouded UM and contributed to the controversy as to what
Speaker 1: actually happened. And that's why I thought it was so
Speaker 1: important to finally write this book. Is to set the
Speaker 1: record straight and show the truth of what took place. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know it's again, I mean, growing up in
Speaker 1: that time frame, I remember that. Like I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's one of those things that you know,
Speaker 1: all of us didn't know what to believe because we're
Speaker 1: getting all this conflicting information about your father. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's amazing that the truth did come out. And I
Speaker 1: want you to tell our listeners about the eventual trade
Speaker 1: for Rudolph abel Did we ever find out who he
Speaker 1: actually was? I know Rudolph Abels was a fictional name
Speaker 1: of a fictional person supposedly from East Germany, but we
Speaker 1: know he was Russian. But did we ever find out
Speaker 1: who Rudolph abel actually is? Yes, Um, Rudolph abel Um
Speaker 1: was a KGB colonel in the KGB. He was a
Speaker 1: ground agent. He was a cloak and dagger spy. He um.
Speaker 1: His actual name was I want to say Willie Fisher
Speaker 1: uh and he was working for the Soviets for the KGB.
Speaker 1: He was snuck into America through Canada. He's' was referred
Speaker 1: to as an illegal in that he crossed the borders
Speaker 1: with fake documentation, fake passport things like that to establish
Speaker 1: a life in America as a spy U in New
Speaker 1: York City. His cover was that of an artist, and
Speaker 1: he was a fairly good artist. He would do paintings
Speaker 1: and photography and make some money in a New York
Speaker 1: doing that for clients, But all the time he was
Speaker 1: actually running a Soviet spy ring, collecting microfilm and microfish,
Speaker 1: putting things in hollowed nickels or hollowed pencils to pass
Speaker 1: on to his superiors in the Soviet Union, to bring
Speaker 1: back the secrets of America to um the Soviets in
Speaker 1: the KGB. So Rudolph Abel was in America for many
Speaker 1: years in nineteen fifties ended up getting caught in I
Speaker 1: want to say fifty seven or fifty eight because of
Speaker 1: a hollowed nickel. One of the paper boys on around
Speaker 1: delivered a paper to his apartment, and either he or
Speaker 1: someone there by accident had given him this nickel that
Speaker 1: was hollowed out and contained some microfilm. So the little
Speaker 1: paper boy goes home, he's counting his change. The nickel
Speaker 1: drops on the floor and opens up, and he and
Speaker 1: his dad looked at the sting and go, this is odd.
Speaker 1: What is this? Well, his dad calls the police. The
Speaker 1: police called the FBI. The FBI go, this is odd,
Speaker 1: this looks like a spy nickel, and so they set
Speaker 1: up a sting operation to figure out what apartment this
Speaker 1: nickel came from. So in fifty eight, the FBI captured
Speaker 1: Rudolf Able. He's put on trial. Um James Donovan is
Speaker 1: the attorney who represents him at trial and uh then
Speaker 1: he's able to get a thirty year sentence as opposed
Speaker 1: to the death penalty. So this is the story of
Speaker 1: Rudolf Able, the Soviet spy that was captured in New
Speaker 1: York City in the late fifties. Turns out that my
Speaker 1: father ends up being exchanged for Rudolf Able. On February
Speaker 1: tenth of nineteen sixty two, the Glennaker Bridge, Potsdam, Germany.
Speaker 1: On one side at the bridge in the morning thirty
Speaker 1: in the morning is Rudolph Able surrounded by his CIA
Speaker 1: and FBI entourage. On the other side of the Glennaker
Speaker 1: Bridge is my dad Spud surrounded by KGB. So they
Speaker 1: are positively ideed. They walk home to the respective freedoms.
Speaker 1: Able returns home a hero of the Soviet Union. My
Speaker 1: dad returns home to all this controversy. Hence why I
Speaker 1: wanted to write the book to set the record strength. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask you about the movie that
Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg made. Um. About that. James Donovan, who you mentioned,
Speaker 1: was a an attorney who he defended Rudolph Able even
Speaker 1: though he despised what he stood for, but he believed in,
Speaker 1: you know, the American ideal that everyone deserves a fair trial,
Speaker 1: and he ended up, um, you know, being behind I
Speaker 1: guess to a to a degree, the trade. The movie
Speaker 1: that Steven Spielberg made. Um, uh, what Bridge of Spies.
Speaker 1: I drew a blank there for a second. You actually
Speaker 1: had a cameo in that. And before we get into that,
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you was if from your family,
Speaker 1: were you pleased with the way your father was portrayed
Speaker 1: in that film? Well? Yes, thank you for referencing the movie. Um.
Speaker 1: The movie came out in two thousand fifteen. It was
Speaker 1: directed by Steven Spielberg. It starred Tom Hanks as James Donovan,
Speaker 1: Austin Stole, a young actor, portrayed my father, and Mark
Speaker 1: Reliance portrayed Rudolph Abel. Mark a Reliance end up putting
Speaker 1: an oscar for his portrayal of the Soviet spy. So
Speaker 1: it's in the movie. Oh yeah, a great movie. Um
Speaker 1: you can find it on a DVD and Netflix and
Speaker 1: things like that. But when this movie was being rumored
Speaker 1: to take place, UM, I was able to get in
Speaker 1: touch with the producer, Mark Platt. He and I talked
Speaker 1: about the movie and the Powers family's concerns. I mean,
Speaker 1: I reached out to them and say, hey, if you
Speaker 1: portray my father with all the misinformation that's going to
Speaker 1: add to this. Uh, his his his reputation being tarnished.
Speaker 1: But if you show the truth of what took place
Speaker 1: and and the base of the portrayal of my dad
Speaker 1: on the declassified files it's come to surface, then he
Speaker 1: will be painted in him as a hero to our country.
Speaker 1: So they liked what I had to say. They hired
Speaker 1: me on as a technical consultant. Um. I was able
Speaker 1: to try to steer them in the right direction and
Speaker 1: as a result, Um, they did do a very good
Speaker 1: job of the portrayal of my father. There is some
Speaker 1: misinformation in the movie. Uh, it is Hollywood. It's not
Speaker 1: a documentary. It's not a h accurate So even though
Speaker 1: the big pictures accurate the tensions between the Soviets and
Speaker 1: the Americans, the fear of a nuclear war, the duck
Speaker 1: and cover drills and civil defense things that were going on. Uh,
Speaker 1: my father being shot down and exchanged. All is relatively
Speaker 1: correct in the big picture, but then when you go
Speaker 1: into every scene and you analyze each scene, it's not correct.
Speaker 1: So there is some misinformation that did find its way
Speaker 1: into the film. But overall, we're very happy with the outcome.
Speaker 1: At the very end of the film and the post script, Uh,
Speaker 1: they honor my dad as a hero to our country,
Speaker 1: So I really can't ask for more than that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, I thought it was a fantastic film. And again,
Speaker 1: I mean we know that Hollywood tends to oversimplify things
Speaker 1: because I mean that's they can't tell a story that
Speaker 1: takes what five to six years in the making in
Speaker 1: in two hours, so you know, they kind of have
Speaker 1: to simplify things. But I was just curious about your
Speaker 1: feeling about that. And and uh, so, did did you
Speaker 1: get bit by the Hollywood bug after being as uh,
Speaker 1: you know, extra in there as a CIA guy. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: as part of the uh uh movie. When I was consulting,
Speaker 1: I'm on set at a few of the locations, and
Speaker 1: at the bel Air Force Base in California, where the
Speaker 1: home of the two program is, they made that to
Speaker 1: appear like it was in um Shawa, Pakistan for the
Speaker 1: May first flight. So they said, hey, Mr Powers, put
Speaker 1: on this vintage nineteen fifty suit. We're gonna have you
Speaker 1: escort the pilot out to his May first mission. And
Speaker 1: so I did a little cameo appearance where I escort
Speaker 1: the pilot out of the hangar doors um for the
Speaker 1: May first mission. So it was it was really a
Speaker 1: thrill and a delight to do this. Very surreal to
Speaker 1: realize that, oh crap, I just walked my father out
Speaker 1: to his mission. It was very It was It was
Speaker 1: a great experience, in one that I won't forget anytime soon. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, you had to be failing close to your
Speaker 1: dad at that point, because here you are, you know,
Speaker 1: years after the what fifty sixty years after it happened,
Speaker 1: You're walking your father out to his you know, his
Speaker 1: final flight in the YouTube. Yeah, it was. It was
Speaker 1: very cool to be able to do that, and it
Speaker 1: was just an honor and a privilege to work with
Speaker 1: Mr Spielberg, Mr Hanks and all the crew and the
Speaker 1: staff on the project. So you know, um, I wanted
Speaker 1: to jump back, and I kind of jumping all around
Speaker 1: all over the place. But um, you know, in in
Speaker 1: the research for your book, Um, right off the bat.
Speaker 1: You know, if you if you read the book, and
Speaker 1: I encourage all of our listeners out there to buy it.
Speaker 1: It's called Spy Pilot France Francis Gary Powers. Do you
Speaker 1: two incident the controversial Cold War legacy. The forward to
Speaker 1: the book is written by the son of Nikita Kruschef,
Speaker 1: and you got to know him quite well and describe
Speaker 1: our listeners how that came about. Well, yeah, Saragei Kruschef,
Speaker 1: Kruschef's son and I are war friends. He's passed away. Um,
Speaker 1: we first met in about and Boda, Norway. Boda is
Speaker 1: where the you two and May first would have landed
Speaker 1: had it been a successful mission. And we were both
Speaker 1: there invited by the Boda Aviation Museum for a conference
Speaker 1: on the Cold War and the U two. So we
Speaker 1: first meet each other there and you know, we were
Speaker 1: a little suspicious of each other and I each other
Speaker 1: up and down. But after the week conference turns out
Speaker 1: that you know, he was trying to Um write about
Speaker 1: his father and to get information out. I was trying
Speaker 1: to find out about my father and get information out.
Speaker 1: We were both historians, We're both trying to look at
Speaker 1: things from an impartial perspective, so find out the truth
Speaker 1: of what took place, and so we hit it off.
Speaker 1: Um he lived and worked in um Rhode Island. He
Speaker 1: was a professor at Brown University for many years, so
Speaker 1: he'd he'd come down to Washington, d C. And on
Speaker 1: occasion we'd get together for dinner or drinks and talk
Speaker 1: shop and reminisced about Cold War history. So he was
Speaker 1: very um thoughtful to do the introduction for me when
Speaker 1: I asked, and he basically did the introduction as as
Speaker 1: I guess, because we had a good friendship. So that
Speaker 1: was very fortunate to be able to get him to
Speaker 1: do that for me. Yeah, that's you know, I think
Speaker 1: that's an amazing footnote to the entire h series of
Speaker 1: events that played out. I mean, here you have the
Speaker 1: son of the YouTube pilot and the son of the
Speaker 1: Soviet premier becoming friends after the fact. I think that
Speaker 1: fills us all full of a little bit of confidence
Speaker 1: that maybe, you know, we we can work through this
Speaker 1: Cold War stuff which is still going on today. Oh yes, Um,
Speaker 1: the Cold War uh technically quote unquote ended when the
Speaker 1: Soviet Union collapsed, but the Cold War mentality lives on, um,
Speaker 1: both within our government and the Russian government, especially with Putin.
Speaker 1: He is a Cold War prodigy. He is a KGB
Speaker 1: raised person who lived through the Cold War and as
Speaker 1: a result still has that mentality. Yeah. Absolutely, And uh
Speaker 1: so were when when you were researching the book. And
Speaker 1: again I don't want to give too much away, but
Speaker 1: you know, talk to our listeners a little bit about
Speaker 1: what it was like when you retrace some of his steps.
Speaker 1: You actually went to Russia then the Soviet Union and
Speaker 1: you got to visit you know, his uh where he
Speaker 1: was tried, his jail cell and and the sight of
Speaker 1: his his shootdown and what was that like, uh for
Speaker 1: for you personally? Well, I have been to the Soviet
Speaker 1: Union once on May one of nine thirty anniversary. I've
Speaker 1: been to Russia three other times in two thousand seven,
Speaker 1: two thousand that gotta remember these dates again two thousand ten,
Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, let me rephrase that I was in
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union in May of nineteen Um, I was
Speaker 1: in the Russia in nine, two thousand ten, and two
Speaker 1: thousand seventeen, and on these various trips I was able
Speaker 1: to meet people who interacted with my father uh, one
Speaker 1: of the missile ears who designed the SA two missile
Speaker 1: to shoot him down. I was able to visit the
Speaker 1: Hall of Columns where the trial took place UH. In nine,
Speaker 1: I was able to visit my father's prison cell in
Speaker 1: Vladimir Prison where he was incarcerated for eighteen months, and
Speaker 1: then in two thousand seventeen, I was able to see
Speaker 1: the actual shoot down location where the chunks of the
Speaker 1: plane hit the ground and the impact craters are still
Speaker 1: there as well as I was able to visit the
Speaker 1: s A two base where the missiles were fired from
Speaker 1: and meet with people who were very young at the
Speaker 1: time who are older now who remember seeing the shoot
Speaker 1: down UM and or the commotion that took place that day.
Speaker 1: So this was all part of my research to find
Speaker 1: out the truth of what took place. I was able
Speaker 1: to visit these sites in the Soviet Union and or Russia.
Speaker 1: I was able to visit the Glennaker Bridge and Potsdam, Germany.
Speaker 1: I was able to visit various locations associated with the
Speaker 1: U two incident. In regards to my books by Pilot,
Speaker 1: people can get it off eBay or Barnes and Noble
Speaker 1: or Amazon for a very good price. If you'd like
Speaker 1: to get an autographed copy, you can go to my
Speaker 1: website at spy Pilot book dot com. Absolutely, and we
Speaker 1: encourage all our listeners and readers to do that. Um,
Speaker 1: and I have to ask you, you know what, with
Speaker 1: all the misinformation that was out there growing up, Um,
Speaker 1: did you ever sense your father was bitter over this? Was?
Speaker 1: He was? He bitter hotwardly. I'm sure he had some
Speaker 1: bitterness inwardly, But did he ever portray any of that
Speaker 1: to you growing up? Uh? No, My dad never portrayed
Speaker 1: that to me. I was still I was twelve when
Speaker 1: he died, So I was a kid with a kid
Speaker 1: mentality and I didn't see that stuff. He didn't talk
Speaker 1: to me about that stuff. He did talk to my
Speaker 1: mom and bitter, Yeah, you could say that. Um, he was.
Speaker 1: He always thought that the US government could have done
Speaker 1: more when he came back home in sixty two to
Speaker 1: help set their record straight. Um, But I and and
Speaker 1: they the CIA did clear him, and the Senate did
Speaker 1: clear him. So you know, there's not much more you
Speaker 1: can do. But he thought that they should have helped
Speaker 1: to squelsh the misinformation to help show the truth of
Speaker 1: what took place. But as I have discovered, because it
Speaker 1: was the Cold War and this mindset, it was easier
Speaker 1: to let this misinformation circulate around. It helped to keep
Speaker 1: the secrets secret. There was so much misinformation, no one
Speaker 1: knew what the truth was. And the CIA likes that,
Speaker 1: they don't like to divulge their truths. I mean, they
Speaker 1: like to keep that vague, um, so that they can
Speaker 1: continue to do what they do, which is necessary to
Speaker 1: protect our country. So um, Dad felt that they, the government,
Speaker 1: the US government, could have been a little bit more
Speaker 1: to help set the record straight, to help clear his name,
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, at the time, the Cold War time period,
Speaker 1: it just wasn't meant to be. But fortunately, once the
Speaker 1: Cold War ended, once enough time passed, the truth did
Speaker 1: surface and the American government did honor Dad as a
Speaker 1: hero to our country. So we're very very honored and
Speaker 1: humble to know that they did that. And and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, moving on and and your your dad was
Speaker 1: a hero, and there was a lot of again you
Speaker 1: know James Bond talk about there was this needle that
Speaker 1: you know, pilots could commit suicide. They were never ordered
Speaker 1: to do that, And I think that's one of the
Speaker 1: misinformation things that's out there. Said, Oh, well, he didn't
Speaker 1: commit suicide like he was ordered to do. That was
Speaker 1: strictly left up to the pilots. Was yeah, that's correct. Um.
Speaker 1: The pilots were told during their training that if you're caught,
Speaker 1: you will be tortured. Here is a way to alleviate
Speaker 1: the pain and suffering, a small poison tipped needle hidden
Speaker 1: in a hollowed out silver dollar. Um. It was an
Speaker 1: optional device to take, an optional device to use at
Speaker 1: the pilot's discretion. And so when my father ends up
Speaker 1: um uh with this device but not using it, people assumed,
Speaker 1: incorrectly that he was ordered to do it, that he
Speaker 1: must have disobeyed orders. Why would he have this device
Speaker 1: unless he was ordered to use it. And that was
Speaker 1: part of the mystique about the you two incident and
Speaker 1: the controversy around it that tarnished my dad's reputation. Did
Speaker 1: he follow orders? Did he disobey? Well? He did. He
Speaker 1: did follow orders to the tea and the c I
Speaker 1: realized this when he was brought back home. Yeah, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, and then moving forward, you know, you embarked
Speaker 1: on this journey to find out, you know, all the
Speaker 1: truth about your father. You weren't at the outset, You
Speaker 1: weren't looking to clear your father's name. You were just
Speaker 1: looking to find out what the actual truth was. And
Speaker 1: then as the truth came out. Now, now, your your
Speaker 1: work was to clear your father's name. But as part
Speaker 1: of that, um, which I think you've done obviously, but
Speaker 1: part of that is you created the uh, the Cold
Speaker 1: War Museum, and and talk to our listeners about that again,
Speaker 1: because I think it's important that so many people don't
Speaker 1: understand how in depth the Cold War really was, and
Speaker 1: you know, explain where the museum is and and what
Speaker 1: it's all about. Well, that's that's exactly right, Steve. When
Speaker 1: I started the research for the book, and this is
Speaker 1: years ago, I was not trying to clear my father's name.
Speaker 1: I was not trying to honor him. I was not
Speaker 1: trying to do anything but to find out the truth.
Speaker 1: So I knew how to answer questions and it's snowballed.
Speaker 1: And as a result of the book, I am my research. UM.
Speaker 1: I discovered that there were hundreds of thousands of other
Speaker 1: men and women who fought sacrific ice, some of which
Speaker 1: who died during this Cold War time period, that had
Speaker 1: not received any recognition for their service to our country
Speaker 1: during the Cold War era. You combine that with kids
Speaker 1: in in school not really knowing anything about the Cold
Speaker 1: War in the nineteen nineties. You know, within five years
Speaker 1: after the end of the Cold War, these high school
Speaker 1: students didn't understand what it was or didn't really learn
Speaker 1: about it. And we found that there was a need
Speaker 1: to honor Cold War veterans, preserve Cold War history, and
Speaker 1: educate kids on this time period. So in nineteen six
Speaker 1: I founded the Cold War Museum to do just that.
Speaker 1: I thought it would take three years fundraise three million bucks,
Speaker 1: shouldn't be too hard to do. Ends up taking fifteen
Speaker 1: years to get brick and mortar. And in that time
Speaker 1: period between ninety six and two thousand eleven, we collected
Speaker 1: U hundreds and thousands, thousand, hundreds and thousands of Cold
Speaker 1: War artifacts and items from the us UM Liberty Incident,
Speaker 1: the USS Pueblo Incident, uh Duck, and cover drill information
Speaker 1: from civil defense items that were used at Vent Hill,
Speaker 1: this top secret military base during the Cold War, the
Speaker 1: monitors and receivers that were used to collect signals, intelligence
Speaker 1: or electronic intelligence from the embassies or around the world.
Speaker 1: And we've been doing this as a way to honor
Speaker 1: the veterans, preserve the history, and educate the kids. The
Speaker 1: museum is located at vent Hill Farm Station, forty five
Speaker 1: miles west of Washington, d C. Is an authentic Cold
Speaker 1: War historic site used throughout the Cold War to monitor
Speaker 1: the our enemies around the world. And the museum opened
Speaker 1: to the public in uh I want to say, November
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven. It's been open now for ten years
Speaker 1: on the weekends, staffed by volunteers midweek by appointment for
Speaker 1: school groups or other people who cannot make it on
Speaker 1: a weekend. More information online at cold war dot org.
Speaker 1: Act excuse me, excellent and uh yeah that the uh we.
Speaker 1: We encourage all of our listeners and readers, if you're
Speaker 1: in the Virginia area, to definitely check that out. And
Speaker 1: you know, is there anything else that you'd like to
Speaker 1: inform our listeners about this morning before we wrap this up? Well, Um,
Speaker 1: the Cold War was a world war. It was also
Speaker 1: a hot war. People did die during this conflict. It
Speaker 1: affected every country to one extent or another, and we
Speaker 1: just are very um honored to be able to help
Speaker 1: preserve this history and honor the veterans who fought sacrifice
Speaker 1: and some of which who died during this conflict. More
Speaker 1: information can be found online at cold War dot org
Speaker 1: and if any of your listeners would like to contact
Speaker 1: me directly, they can reach me through my website at
Speaker 1: Gary Powers dot com. Excellent, and we again we really
Speaker 1: want to thank you for taking the time this morning.
Speaker 1: We appreciate that and all your work that you've done,
Speaker 1: and especially with the Cold War Museum and in writing
Speaker 1: your father's name. Um. But before we we wrapped this up,
Speaker 1: I just want to read something really quick. If you
Speaker 1: want to get software Up on your phone, download our
Speaker 1: free mobile app and get easy access to our articles,
Speaker 1: podcasts and your reviews, all perfectly formatity your device, Please
Speaker 1: describe to software up dot com and to get access
Speaker 1: to all our library of the books and our exclusive
Speaker 1: team room forms and content available on all your Apple
Speaker 1: and Android devices. Gary, once again, thanks for joining us
Speaker 1: this morning. UM, we really appreciated, We appreciate your time
Speaker 1: and all the work you've put in, and this was
Speaker 1: a fantastic book and once again, UH, we encourage all
Speaker 1: of our readers out there check it out. Spy Pilot
Speaker 1: Francis Gary Power's the YouTube incident and a controversial co
Speaker 1: war legacy. Thanks again, sir for joining us this morning.
Speaker 1: Let's hope we can do this again sometimes so well, Steve,
Speaker 1: that would be great. It was a pleasure to join you.
Speaker 1: And if any of your listeners are interested in having
Speaker 1: me to be a speaker at one of their events
Speaker 1: or UM activities, I am always looking for lecture venues
Speaker 1: around the country to talk about Cold War history. So
Speaker 1: thank you very much for having me as a guest
Speaker 1: on your show today. Yeah, make sure you check out
Speaker 1: his personal website as well. And uh and if you're
Speaker 1: interested in having him speak at one of your events,
Speaker 1: you can do so there. So for myself, Steve Balstori
Speaker 1: our our yes this morning, Garry Powers who joined us.
Speaker 1: This is UH from Software Radio. We want to thank
Speaker 1: you all for listening. We'll be back with another podcast
Speaker 1: very very soon. Use them listening to self. Red Radia