Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're
Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military news and straight
Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community. Hello, we're gonna everyone,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Software Radio, Software Radio on time, on Target.
Speaker 1: I'm your host this afternoon, Steve Alstruia. We have a
Speaker 1: great show lined up for you today. We're gonna be
Speaker 1: talking with the people from the nine eleven Memorial or Museum.
Speaker 1: They have recently co produced a documentary with the History
Speaker 1: Channel titled Revealed The Hunt for Bien and it's based
Speaker 1: on the museum special exhibition of the exact same name,
Speaker 1: and they were granted unprecedented access to the military and
Speaker 1: intelligence officials who worked on the Bin Laden you know
Speaker 1: search for over a decade and some of whom you know,
Speaker 1: their identities still aren't revealed to the public, as well
Speaker 1: as several of the Seal team members who took part
Speaker 1: in this on the ground. This documentary is gonna premiere
Speaker 1: on May two and will be available for streaming afterwards.
Speaker 1: I've seen the trailer. If you haven't watched the trailer yet,
Speaker 1: I guarantee you it's gonna get your interest. It looks
Speaker 1: extremely well done and joining us to talk about this
Speaker 1: is Clifford Shannon. He's the executive vice president and the
Speaker 1: deputy director from Museum Programs of the nine o eleven Museum,
Speaker 1: and we want to welcome him to the podcast. Clifford,
Speaker 1: thanks for taking the time with us this afternoon. We
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Thanks so much, Steve. I'm really happy
Speaker 1: to be here and thank you for your interest in
Speaker 1: this and your service. Oh, we're We're very interested in this.
Speaker 1: I think this is something you know, UM, a lot
Speaker 1: of Americans don't understand what goes on the day to
Speaker 1: day when you know, we have people in harm's will
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan and Iraq, but when when you talk about
Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden in nine eleven, I don't think anyone
Speaker 1: doesn't understand what that's all about. No, it's true. And
Speaker 1: you know, going back to really the earliest days of
Speaker 1: the museum and when we were planning for it, because
Speaker 1: I've worked on this, uh, when it was just a
Speaker 1: project at the beginning of the museum project. Came on
Speaker 1: as a consultant in May two thousand and five, UM,
Speaker 1: and you know, we had to really pay a lot
Speaker 1: of attention as we were planning out the narrative of
Speaker 1: the museum, the whole history of nine eleven. You know,
Speaker 1: how do you portray the terrorists? How do you include
Speaker 1: them in a story like this. Our place is certainly
Speaker 1: focused on education, but it's also focused on commemorating the
Speaker 1: attacks and honoring the victims and those marking the service
Speaker 1: of those who came to help, and so combining those
Speaker 1: things in the museum itself post certain challenges, and we
Speaker 1: had a long haul to go to get to the
Speaker 1: point of feeling like after testing it and really running
Speaker 1: through a lot of conversations, you know, how to get
Speaker 1: the perpetrators into the story. And ben Laden of course
Speaker 1: was the leader of al Qaeda, was the one who
Speaker 1: wanted to target the United States in the homeland. The
Speaker 1: earlier attacks before nine eleven, at the US embassies in
Speaker 1: at the the USS coal and Yemen in two thousand.
Speaker 1: I mean, these were ways of leading up to the
Speaker 1: nine eleven attack, testing our resolved, testing our response, and
Speaker 1: so um, you know it was you know, not really
Speaker 1: possible as we thought about this to tell the story
Speaker 1: without him, but clearly, um, this is lead perpetrator. And
Speaker 1: of course, when Operation Neptune Spear occurred in May two
Speaker 1: thousand and eleven. Well, that was the end of this
Speaker 1: very very significant chapter of the broader nine eleven story.
Speaker 1: It's not the end of al Qaeda, but the end
Speaker 1: of bin Laden's life was obviously a chapter that we
Speaker 1: wanted to pursue in more detail, first with the exhibition
Speaker 1: and then with the film, which runs Sunday, May second,
Speaker 1: at eight o'clock on the History Channel eight o'clock Eastern
Speaker 1: and Pacific times, and then inside in the other time zones.
Speaker 1: It's an hour off that. Now, how did you come
Speaker 1: to be involved with the nine eleven Memorial and museum? So? UM,
Speaker 1: you know, I I've worked prior to this in a
Speaker 1: lot of different areas. I worked in as a journalist.
Speaker 1: I worked in the Mayor's office in New York and
Speaker 1: UM in the nineteen nineties, I was a program officer
Speaker 1: at the Rockefeller Foundation, which is a global, globally orient
Speaker 1: did foundation and UM really in the early nineties, it
Speaker 1: was the president of the Foundation then who was interested
Speaker 1: in exploring this issue that wasn't getting a lot of
Speaker 1: attention at the time, and that was I mean, essentially
Speaker 1: the Islamic Revival as it was beginning to stir in
Speaker 1: different countries around the world, and I became the person
Speaker 1: whose job it was to go look at these places,
Speaker 1: try to you know, talk to people who understood what
Speaker 1: was going on there. And so, you know, over a decade,
Speaker 1: I had really built up this experience, these networks and
Speaker 1: so on, and so as the you know, fast forward
Speaker 1: to the planning efforts after nine eleven, it was an
Speaker 1: area in which I had, um, you know, some experience
Speaker 1: that was useful at that time thinking about, you know,
Speaker 1: how to think of the problem really and so I
Speaker 1: had also done some work on how society's memorialized mass violence. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so those two things, which pre nine eleven were
Speaker 1: very separate, after Ninal eleven sort of came together in
Speaker 1: this very strange way. Now was that part of Legacy project.
Speaker 1: So Legacy Project was, after I left Robe Feller, sort
Speaker 1: of a way to dig more deeply into this notion
Speaker 1: of historical memory. Uh, and you know how it plays
Speaker 1: in contemporary society. So you know, it's it's the nine
Speaker 1: eleven Memorial Museum then became you know, for me, almost
Speaker 1: a test case of seeing how that operates. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, it was very interested in what was going
Speaker 1: on from the beginning and when I had the opportunity
Speaker 1: to get involved, it was really you know something that
Speaker 1: you know everybody familiar quote from will William Faulkner who wrote,
Speaker 1: you know, the past isn't dead, it isn't even past,
Speaker 1: and um, you know we can see that even now
Speaker 1: in America and many of our contemporary debates. You don't
Speaker 1: simply turn the page in the history book and leave
Speaker 1: it in the past. And I was always very interested
Speaker 1: in how these issues of conflict or violence or whatever
Speaker 1: it was manifest themselves in current day society. And so
Speaker 1: you know, the nine eleven example was in real time,
Speaker 1: uh is trying to see how America assimilated if it
Speaker 1: could this terrible injury, and what the responses would be,
Speaker 1: and those responses could come in you know, many many
Speaker 1: different ways, military, cultural, religious, um. You know, in terms
Speaker 1: of civiliberties, I mean, on and on the debates we've
Speaker 1: had in America over the last twenty years are you know,
Speaker 1: in some ways all coming out of that terrible, terrible
Speaker 1: day on September eleventh, two thousand one. You know, it's
Speaker 1: funny because you know, when you talk to Americans, especially
Speaker 1: some that might be a little bit older than than others.
Speaker 1: You can ask people three questions and usually if they
Speaker 1: were alive during that time, they can always answer that.
Speaker 1: And as for older Americans, and I was just barely
Speaker 1: old enough to remember that, where were you the day
Speaker 1: Kennedy was shot? Absolutely? Yeah, where were you when the
Speaker 1: man first landed on the moon? And I remember, you know,
Speaker 1: glued to my parents television said at that time? And
Speaker 1: then where were you on nine eleven? Were you living
Speaker 1: in New York City at the time. Yeah, I'm a
Speaker 1: I'm a native New Yorker, born and bred, still live
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn where I was born. Um, and so my
Speaker 1: story is not particularly dramatic. I was at home that
Speaker 1: morning and trying to follow it, you know, initially, just
Speaker 1: getting ready to drive into the city. I was bringing
Speaker 1: somewhat for a medical appointment. And I heard about the
Speaker 1: first plane. They were staying on the radio, you know,
Speaker 1: it's just a small plane or whatever. And I was
Speaker 1: in the car actually just about to drive across the
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge when the second plane hit the second tower,
Speaker 1: the South Tower, And you know, I was looking ahead,
Speaker 1: but people lining the sidewalk I heard them just scream
Speaker 1: as as that flight when hit the South tower, and
Speaker 1: of course, the police were pulling in front of the
Speaker 1: bridge and not allowing anybody to go, so it just
Speaker 1: basically turned around, went home, and I spent the day,
Speaker 1: like really anybody else, just watching TV. But even though
Speaker 1: the event was right across the river from my house, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's uh, I mean, it was. It was shocking at
Speaker 1: the time because you know, we're used to seeing bad
Speaker 1: things happened to other people, but not so much. You know,
Speaker 1: inside the United States, we've had our share, but nothing
Speaker 1: like this ever before, hopefully never again. And you know,
Speaker 1: it was an absolute shock. And I remember I had
Speaker 1: recently had gotten out of the military and I was
Speaker 1: working for a civilian company and my boss said, hey,
Speaker 1: he called me in his office, come look at this.
Speaker 1: And you know, the first news reports were coming aboard
Speaker 1: about the first plane hit in the World Trades Center,
Speaker 1: and I told him it has to be terrorism. On
Speaker 1: a bright, beautiful sunny day in in New York City,
Speaker 1: some pilots just not gonna lose his way and hit
Speaker 1: the middle of the World's Trade Center. And he was
Speaker 1: kind of poo pooing it at the time. He was like, no,
Speaker 1: there's no way. And then we were sitting there and
Speaker 1: of course all works stopped and everyone was crowding around
Speaker 1: his desk, and then the second plane hit, and then
Speaker 1: I don't think there was any doubt in anyone's mind
Speaker 1: at that point. Yeah, I know that, that's absolutely it.
Speaker 1: And of course you you were right to see it
Speaker 1: the way you did, though not everybody was aware of
Speaker 1: the threat until seventeen minutes later. I mean, you know
Speaker 1: the precise moment when that when that picture changed. Um,
Speaker 1: and so you know, I'm sure you felt it, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, with your background, but um, you know, everybody
Speaker 1: wanted to figure out a way to do something to help. Um,
Speaker 1: it was just this you know moment where the country
Speaker 1: was under attack, and you think about it. I mean
Speaker 1: a KaiA was, you know, as a small terrorist group basically,
Speaker 1: and the estimates were for a couple of hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: They put this plan together and did something to us
Speaker 1: that none of our enemies at wartime had managed to
Speaker 1: do over the history of this country, going back of
Speaker 1: course to the the War of twelves. So you know,
Speaker 1: just an amazing, amazing set of events led to their
Speaker 1: ability to just accomplished this, and they saw it as
Speaker 1: a real accomplishment and a feat. I don't think they
Speaker 1: realized it would you bring us into um Afghanistan at
Speaker 1: the time. But you know, this is uh just remarkable
Speaker 1: story of a remarkable day in the twenty years since.
Speaker 1: So um explain to our listeners or tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about the museum and the memorial itself for
Speaker 1: those who haven't had a chance, including myself to visit
Speaker 1: it yet. So I'm I'm happy to to do that.
Speaker 1: So you know, the original World Trade Center was a
Speaker 1: sixteen acre site and for the redevelopment post nine eleven,
Speaker 1: roughly eight acres were put aside, the central eight acres
Speaker 1: of the site for a memorial which opened on the
Speaker 1: tenth anniversary of nine eleven, which is the two pools
Speaker 1: about an acre square filling the footprints of the North
Speaker 1: and South towers of the World Trade Center. Uh, those
Speaker 1: two waterfalls with the names of all the victims in
Speaker 1: sized around them. So that was the the memorial that
Speaker 1: opened ten years after the anniversary of the attack, ten
Speaker 1: years the ten year anniversary attack, and then in May
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen, the museum, which is almost entirely underground.
Speaker 1: It's a hundred and ten thousand square feet which people,
Speaker 1: don't you realize because the entrance to the museum isn't
Speaker 1: as large as you would assume that size museum would have.
Speaker 1: The bulk of that square footage is at what we
Speaker 1: know as the bedrock level, that's seven stories below ground,
Speaker 1: under the pools, where the original construction of the World
Speaker 1: Trade Center began, and some of the elements of that
Speaker 1: original construction, so some of the original building elements are
Speaker 1: sort of central to the design of the museum and
Speaker 1: they are preserved in the museum. So you know, a
Speaker 1: visitor coming to the museum will have this vast space
Speaker 1: open up in front of them, um looking down into
Speaker 1: it and then walking through it. You know, when we
Speaker 1: talk to someone about an underground museum, they think of
Speaker 1: these small, dark, cramped spaces, and nothing could be further
Speaker 1: from the truth in terms of what the experience of
Speaker 1: our museum is. And within the museum, we have two
Speaker 1: main permanent exhibitions. The first, and I think you know,
Speaker 1: the central one of all, is what we refer to
Speaker 1: as our Memorial exhibition, which is set a space devoted
Speaker 1: you know, to the memory of those victims, with with
Speaker 1: portraits and profiles of the two thousand two thousand, nine
Speaker 1: seventy seven victims of the nine eleven attacks, and of
Speaker 1: the six victims of the truck bombing of the World
Speaker 1: Trade Center, the first attack on the World Trade Centers
Speaker 1: a two thousand three victims. And it's a very solemn
Speaker 1: but very moving exhibition area. And then we have a
Speaker 1: large historical exhibition which tells the story of the event,
Speaker 1: the things that led to the event and the consequences.
Speaker 1: And so that's uh, you know, that's an extended a
Speaker 1: visit are a part of your visit to the museum.
Speaker 1: And then of course we have a special exhibition gallery
Speaker 1: where we've rotated exhibitions over the years, and in November
Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, we opened, uh, this special exhibition revealed
Speaker 1: the Hunt for Bin Laden. It's open again to the public.
Speaker 1: We had to keep it closed for a bit longer
Speaker 1: for COVID reasons. The museum has been opened again, um
Speaker 1: since last September. But um, you know, now the exhibition itself,
Speaker 1: which has media pieces, which has some wonderful object loans
Speaker 1: from some of the individuals involved, some of the intelligence
Speaker 1: agencies involved, and to me, the centerpiece loan um is
Speaker 1: the very famous model that the National ga Special Intelligence
Speaker 1: Agency built. It's four ft by four fit foot. It's
Speaker 1: it's the model of the bin Laden Compound before they
Speaker 1: knew it was the bin laden compound. And that model
Speaker 1: was brought to the White House to brief the President.
Speaker 1: It was used by the Seals to plan how they
Speaker 1: would conduct the raid, and then of course it became
Speaker 1: the model for a full scale model of the compound,
Speaker 1: which was built so the Seals could run through and
Speaker 1: drill on how they were actually on the ground going
Speaker 1: to carry out the mission. So when we got permission
Speaker 1: from U. N g A to borrow that, and you
Speaker 1: have to realize it's it's I would venture to say,
Speaker 1: maybe the proudest object that they have in their entire
Speaker 1: institutional history, because it normally is located in a special
Speaker 1: setting just outside the Director's office. So clearly anybody coming
Speaker 1: to see the director first gets to see that model.
Speaker 1: Um you know, when we were given the permission to
Speaker 1: borrow that, I felt like we had been given the
Speaker 1: permission from the Crown to borrow the Crown Jewels, if
Speaker 1: you know, it really really cemented in my mind that
Speaker 1: you know, this was going to take us in um
Speaker 1: A wonderfully, you know, comprehensive direction in terms of how
Speaker 1: we could tell the story, and we use images of
Speaker 1: the model, we use other imagery that n g A
Speaker 1: released to us from overhead views of the compound and
Speaker 1: so on in the film itself. Yea, before we get
Speaker 1: into that, I just wanted to jump back a little
Speaker 1: bit and talk about there was, you know, different exhibitions
Speaker 1: in the museum and memorial and uh, like I said,
Speaker 1: I haven't been there, but I've looked at it online
Speaker 1: and I think one of the most moving exhibitions is
Speaker 1: the photographs of all of the victims. And without having
Speaker 1: been there, I can already tell it's that has to
Speaker 1: be one of the probably the most poignant parts of
Speaker 1: anyone's visit, because I remember I visited the Holocaust Museum
Speaker 1: in Jerusalem many years ago, and you know, that's when
Speaker 1: it really strikes somebody the scope of everything that's involved
Speaker 1: in you talk about, you know, you know, seventy three
Speaker 1: people who were killed. There are seventy seven people who
Speaker 1: were killed there, but it doesn't really strike home until
Speaker 1: you see all the photographs. And I remember the same
Speaker 1: thing going through. They had as many photographs as they could,
Speaker 1: you know, bring up at the time of the Holocaust Museum,
Speaker 1: and that is a very moving part of everything. You know,
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more I I UM. It's
Speaker 1: so we have in that memorial exhibition there are basically
Speaker 1: two concentric squares and the outer square all the walls
Speaker 1: are covered with photos of that that number of victims,
Speaker 1: and um. Of course, you go into that exhibition and
Speaker 1: you would like to be able to look at all
Speaker 1: of them and pay them individual respect, but it's pretty
Speaker 1: clear you're not able to do that. It's it's too overwhelming.
Speaker 1: And so that really reinforces what the nature of the
Speaker 1: crime was, which was a mass murder, and the other
Speaker 1: thing about it, I mean on a certain age, but
Speaker 1: it's striking to me just how young so many of
Speaker 1: those people were, at the early stages of their lives,
Speaker 1: of their careers, of making families together with spouses. It's
Speaker 1: really overwhelming. And then the one last element is you know,
Speaker 1: of the two thousand and seventy seven people, they came
Speaker 1: from more than ninety countries, and you know there were
Speaker 1: people on planes or visitors from overseas, but many of
Speaker 1: them were immigrants of the country who you know, were
Speaker 1: making their way. And of course others were from long
Speaker 1: established American families, doesn't really matter. But you look at
Speaker 1: the wall and you see just the extraordinary range of humanity.
Speaker 1: And I say that because you know, this was an
Speaker 1: attack on the United States. This was something of course
Speaker 1: we felt, probably most severely in New York because of
Speaker 1: the scale of what happened here, but the outflow of
Speaker 1: emotion and solidarity from around the world, it was really
Speaker 1: this really really striking sense of you know, what America was,
Speaker 1: what it represented, what these individual people who would come
Speaker 1: here to make their lives, you know, the symbolism of
Speaker 1: them for people around the world. And I'll never forget
Speaker 1: speak to a Turkish friend, um, who you know, has
Speaker 1: always lived in Turkey, you know, not Americans visited here,
Speaker 1: loves it here. But and she said to me, you know,
Speaker 1: I've lost my American dream. The idea that you know,
Speaker 1: this special place and what it represents could be assaulted
Speaker 1: this way. Um. It resonated for so many people, regardless
Speaker 1: of where they were. Yeah, and you know, it's one
Speaker 1: of the things that you know, we say a lot,
Speaker 1: but it truly was. We talked about crimes against humanity,
Speaker 1: and like you said, over ninety countries were represented there.
Speaker 1: So that's it, truly was so absolutely absolutely. But um,
Speaker 1: we're talking with Clifford Channon here from the nine eleven
Speaker 1: Memorial and Museum, and now we're going to get into
Speaker 1: the special. I know you don't want to give too
Speaker 1: much away about the special and and I gotta try
Speaker 1: to balance asking you about it without you know, me
Speaker 1: pushing for you to give too much away. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm very intrigued to hear about you know, how you
Speaker 1: guys came about working with the History Channel on this,
Speaker 1: and obviously there had to have been a lot of
Speaker 1: bureaucracy and details that had to be worked up. No,
Speaker 1: it's it's you know, the project itself, which initially was
Speaker 1: just focused on the exhibition. It took more than five
Speaker 1: years to do. And um, you know, I don't think
Speaker 1: I have to sort of make the case to anybody
Speaker 1: here that you know, it made perfect sense for the
Speaker 1: nine eleven Museum to tell this story. It really is
Speaker 1: about the persistence of the United States in going after
Speaker 1: the man who was most responsible for nine eleven. So
Speaker 1: you know, I I but you know that said, the
Speaker 1: real question then became to us, well, how do we
Speaker 1: do this because technically speaking then and even now, the
Speaker 1: mission was classified in the sense that there was no
Speaker 1: real incentive for anybody within the bureaucratic command structure of
Speaker 1: the military of the intelligence community to sort of just
Speaker 1: start releasing things to the public. So everything that would
Speaker 1: ultimately wind up in the exhibition and the film was
Speaker 1: unknown to us when we started doing the work to
Speaker 1: put the exhibition together. So that raised a really interesting question,
Speaker 1: how do you curate an exhibition when you don't know
Speaker 1: what kind of materials could be available to show in
Speaker 1: the exhibition. Now, I'll back up a little bit, because
Speaker 1: there's no question in my mind that we were able
Speaker 1: to succeed at this first and foremost because we are
Speaker 1: the nine eleven Museum, and I mean something very specific
Speaker 1: by that. Even before the museum opened, even before the
Speaker 1: memorial was ready, we would get requests for military, law enforcement,
Speaker 1: intelligence groups. We want to come and visit, we want
Speaker 1: to pay our respect, and so we would accommodate these
Speaker 1: requests as best we could, whether it was a construction
Speaker 1: site or whether. Up until this day, we do formal
Speaker 1: programs for all of these agencies, and it's a special
Speaker 1: visit for the agency's obviously when they're mixing with the public,
Speaker 1: that's fine, but they you know, it's an auditorium program
Speaker 1: for them. We're now at the means a visit to
Speaker 1: the museum is now a formal part of the training
Speaker 1: for all new FBI agents and analysts at Quantico. My
Speaker 1: point is we had developed these relationships with um the
Speaker 1: national security community over years, and my conclusion is, first off,
Speaker 1: they realized that their mission today, back then and still today,
Speaker 1: was completely tied up with the event of nine eleven,
Speaker 1: and people were making many, many sacrifices these last twenty
Speaker 1: years because of nine eleven. So my sense is they
Speaker 1: looked at how we presented the nine eleven story. They
Speaker 1: respected the way we went about it, and I think
Speaker 1: it gave them a level of confidence to say, well,
Speaker 1: this is how they handled the not eleven story, which
Speaker 1: is so important to us. Maybe we could consider how
Speaker 1: to cooperate with them on telling this other story, the
Speaker 1: story of none of the bin Laden hunt and the mission.
Speaker 1: And so we had some relationships with an intelligence community
Speaker 1: in particular. We began developing them and we began to say, look,
Speaker 1: here's what our plan is. We don't know what there is,
Speaker 1: we don't know who could be available to tell us
Speaker 1: about what there is or tell us the story of
Speaker 1: how this was done. But you know, we had many
Speaker 1: many initial meetings where I remember this very very well.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's a very funny memory in my mind.
Speaker 1: We would sit in a room. This happened many times.
Speaker 1: We'd sit in a room, we get we get the meeting,
Speaker 1: which is already something. We get the meeting, and we'd
Speaker 1: be sitting a couple of us with you know, some
Speaker 1: number of people from an intelligence agency, and we'd say, well,
Speaker 1: this is what we're doing. We're looking for the kind
Speaker 1: of thing that could make this point, for example, the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that would show just how extensive the
Speaker 1: intelligence sweep by special forces and special operators during their
Speaker 1: raids in Afghanistan, what that would look like. And inevitably,
Speaker 1: you could see the people from the agency kind of
Speaker 1: looking at each other and smiling and sort of you
Speaker 1: could see the eyes communicating, and they wouldn't say anything
Speaker 1: in front of us, because you know, everything we were
Speaker 1: asking for was still classified, but at least we gave
Speaker 1: him a track, and sometime days or weeks or whatever
Speaker 1: it was later, they'd come back to us and say, well,
Speaker 1: you know, we sort of could give you something like
Speaker 1: this and they describe it, and of course we loved
Speaker 1: everything they describe. They thought it was just kind of
Speaker 1: stuff on a shelf somewhere, but we were very, very
Speaker 1: happy to have it. And it was really through that process,
Speaker 1: which I must say in a couple of cases in particular, Um,
Speaker 1: there were people inside the agency's who made it their cause,
Speaker 1: or so it seems from the outside, their cause, to
Speaker 1: take this idea and push it through the internal bureaucracy.
Speaker 1: I don't think we would have gotten through some of
Speaker 1: these bureaucracies if there hadn't been someone inside who was
Speaker 1: following it, who knew how the bureaucracy worked and who
Speaker 1: could push in the right ways, because all we could
Speaker 1: do was ask and say, gee, what do you think
Speaker 1: this is going to be done? Because we had nothing
Speaker 1: to say about whatever the considerations were that made it possible.
Speaker 1: And like so much else these folks do, I can't
Speaker 1: acknowledge them, um publicly. I've more than once acknowledged them directly.
Speaker 1: But that was part of the success. That there were
Speaker 1: people inside who trusted us and who believed the story
Speaker 1: needed to be told, and that got us objects that
Speaker 1: were alone to the exhibition and some photos used in
Speaker 1: the film, but it also got us interviews with key
Speaker 1: people on the intelligence side who were involved for years
Speaker 1: in the hunt and who were there when that first
Speaker 1: breakthrough moment came and they could describe that to us.
Speaker 1: And because those folks are still on active duty, it
Speaker 1: was number one, just an extraordinary gesture by their home
Speaker 1: agency to allow them to speak to us. But you know,
Speaker 1: the agreement was they could not be visible on screen
Speaker 1: for all the obvious reasons and so um, some of
Speaker 1: them are just voices and some of them are shadowed
Speaker 1: figures in the film. Yeah, you know, it's uh, it
Speaker 1: was very interesting because I went through, you know, the
Speaker 1: the digital version of this. Obviously we haven't seen the
Speaker 1: film yet, it hasn't been released to anyone, but going
Speaker 1: through the digital, you know version of this, some of
Speaker 1: the intelligence people giving there you know, appraisal of things,
Speaker 1: and it has to be really satisfying for some of
Speaker 1: those people who spent up to ten years tracking Bin
Speaker 1: Laden after you know, we originally went into Afghanistan and
Speaker 1: like October of you know, two thousand one, they finally
Speaker 1: kind of nailed him down. In August of two thousand
Speaker 1: and ten when they finally kind of tracked him down
Speaker 1: and listening to those people, and then you have Leon Panetta,
Speaker 1: the um former director of the CIA that at that
Speaker 1: time talking about the big picture, and even had you know,
Speaker 1: President Obama with his speech at the end, kind of
Speaker 1: ties it all in together, doesn't It's incredible And and
Speaker 1: you know what we realized we made the exhibition is
Speaker 1: we had done by then so many interviews and had
Speaker 1: so much great stuff that it just couldn't be shown
Speaker 1: in the exhibition. And so that really gave us the
Speaker 1: push to make a documentary film out of this, and
Speaker 1: one of the things we were able to do. And
Speaker 1: I finished the last interview for this film a week
Speaker 1: before the COVID shutdowns, so we were just doing this
Speaker 1: all the way up to the end. We did get
Speaker 1: access on the military side. Two the key planners, the
Speaker 1: military planners of the mission, so the folks, one officer
Speaker 1: in particular, and then the people he brought in who
Speaker 1: Adam mcgraven turned to when you know, he told the President,
Speaker 1: we can do this, but I've got to come back
Speaker 1: to you and tell you how we're going to do this,
Speaker 1: because I have to speak to the people who will
Speaker 1: actually be doing it. I mean, those are the folks
Speaker 1: who for the first time are telling the story of
Speaker 1: how you go about doing this? How do you figure
Speaker 1: out what what the risks are of flying a d
Speaker 1: sixty nine miles into a sovereign nation which is not
Speaker 1: expecting you and carrying out a military operation. This is
Speaker 1: a country that's supposed to be our ally But you
Speaker 1: know that's a complicated question. But um, you know, to
Speaker 1: get the first person voice of those folks, and then
Speaker 1: we added, um, some of the voices of the pilots
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, their perspective on the mission, because
Speaker 1: don't forget, the whole thing took about four hours. At
Speaker 1: about forty minutes of that time was spent on the ground,
Speaker 1: which means three hours and twenty minutes. The seals are
Speaker 1: basically just passengers on. One of them describes it as
Speaker 1: a ginormous bus. And so you know, the success of
Speaker 1: the mission is in the hands of the pilots. And
Speaker 1: this is something that because of the heroism and the
Speaker 1: extraordinary accomplishment of the Seals, it hasn't really gotten a
Speaker 1: lot of focus. So we were able to get the
Speaker 1: story of the helicopter piece of this mission, how it
Speaker 1: was planned, what factors were taken into consideration, and working
Speaker 1: with um the pilots actually track the roots in and
Speaker 1: out by the helicopters before and after the mission. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think you know, one of the things that
Speaker 1: most Americans don't really have a great appreciation for is
Speaker 1: the amount of planning that goes into one of the
Speaker 1: It's not just like, Okay, yeah, a bunch of seals
Speaker 1: are gonna jump on the helicopter. We're gonna fly over,
Speaker 1: you know, hundred and seventy miles of Pakistani airspace, you know,
Speaker 1: take out a compound, then jump right back on and
Speaker 1: go everyone go home. Appy. It's the detail that goes
Speaker 1: into that, and the amount of planning is just absolutely amazing.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that you guys have delved into that
Speaker 1: as well. Absolutely, And of course it's so detailed that
Speaker 1: we could only give a flavor of it, but you
Speaker 1: know what was very clear, and we interviewed animal to
Speaker 1: Graven and he talked about this, and then some of
Speaker 1: the planners did every possible contingency that could happen, including
Speaker 1: first and foremost, this was the first risk contingency that
Speaker 1: they planned for. One of the helicopters going down, So
Speaker 1: what happens in that case? What do you do then?
Speaker 1: And of course where it goes down, but the contingency,
Speaker 1: the two Chinook helicopters which were the backup force, and
Speaker 1: you know, the contingency air frames that would go in
Speaker 1: in case of trouble. I mean, they were right on
Speaker 1: their marks when they were needed. So when that first
Speaker 1: black Hawk goes down in the compound, there's of course
Speaker 1: a moment of shock for the pilots who were in
Speaker 1: the Chinook's wait and see what happened. But essentially, you know,
Speaker 1: within ten seconds there now in their phase of the
Speaker 1: mission picking up because they know what they have to do.
Speaker 1: And it was like that again and again and again.
Speaker 1: If rething that you know, they could imagine. And I
Speaker 1: would just add these people were incredibly experienced. They had
Speaker 1: been more fighters in these kinds of operations for years.
Speaker 1: One of the things that was so interesting about it,
Speaker 1: and it applies to the relationship between the intelligence and
Speaker 1: the military side as well. You know, when they began
Speaker 1: planning for the Bin Lauden raid, they were working with
Speaker 1: people basically who they worked with before. They had trust,
Speaker 1: they had experience together, they had confidence, they knew they
Speaker 1: could rely on one another. And so you know, all
Speaker 1: of those years of experience of running raids and missions
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan in Iraq sort of came to this finely
Speaker 1: honed machine that knew what it was doing, that had
Speaker 1: the trust across agencies. And so you know, when the when,
Speaker 1: when the when the first military planner goes into the
Speaker 1: CIA to be briefed about what it is, and he
Speaker 1: wasn't told what he was there for. And he's given
Speaker 1: a folder that you know, first page has been Loudon's
Speaker 1: picture on it, and he says, you know, he was
Speaker 1: in a small basically they converted a closet for security
Speaker 1: reasons within the CIA, if you can imagine, because it
Speaker 1: wasn't shared. Um, he looked around the room, he said,
Speaker 1: and these are people, A couple of them he knew
Speaker 1: because he'd worked with them as a military intelligence cooperation
Speaker 1: on missions before. And that really, to me is one
Speaker 1: of the key elements in the success of this mission
Speaker 1: and more broadly, the success of special operations. There is now,
Speaker 1: as you well know, as your audience knows very well.
Speaker 1: You know, the whole Joint Special Operations Command, the Special
Speaker 1: Operations Command I mean, all of these things are relatively
Speaker 1: recent phenomena in terms of the history of the U. S. Military,
Speaker 1: and it gives us a tool that is unique. It's
Speaker 1: finely honed, and when it is UM, when it is
Speaker 1: put to use UM, it has devastating effect. And that
Speaker 1: was certainly the case in relation to Operation Neptune Spear. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and that was one of the things that you know,
Speaker 1: the the creation of so Calm was supposed to create.
Speaker 1: You know, it was supposed to work that way, as
Speaker 1: you know, we learned during the I Ran hostage rescue
Speaker 1: back in you know, uh, we need dedicated people to
Speaker 1: be able to work together and plan and conduct these
Speaker 1: type of operations, so we don't have that desert one
Speaker 1: type thing you know ever rear its ugly head again.
Speaker 1: And these type of operations that the operators and the
Speaker 1: intelligence people have only gotten better as we've gone along,
Speaker 1: and now we have the capability to go anywhere just
Speaker 1: about in the world. And I'm really looking forward to
Speaker 1: this special But you know, when it all, you know
Speaker 1: finished up, UM, I'm sure you had a lot more
Speaker 1: UM material than an hour. You probably had a cut
Speaker 1: probably ten times that. Out of all of the material
Speaker 1: you gathered up. Yeah, that's a very painful subject. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of things, Um, for reasons that
Speaker 1: aren't very interesting, but unfortunate. We also want to weren't
Speaker 1: able to do the book project we've been planning around this,
Speaker 1: so I actually I am hoping that we can still
Speaker 1: do something. So you know, there are some folks out
Speaker 1: there who whose stories I would love to hear still,
Speaker 1: who know, and they're thinking about that, so there may
Speaker 1: even be I mean, there's a lot more that can
Speaker 1: be said about this, of course, but you know the
Speaker 1: challenge of doing this. I mean, we did interviews for
Speaker 1: the film and that includes you know, the most well
Speaker 1: known people, so you mentioned President Obama, Director Panetta, Secretary
Speaker 1: of State Clinton, Secretary Defense Gates, Admiral mcgraven, you know,
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. But you know, those are
Speaker 1: the people who were the big picture actors in this
Speaker 1: and what we added to that and I think it
Speaker 1: gives it, you know, a great kind of granular feel.
Speaker 1: Is we added the planners and the operators, whether it's
Speaker 1: on the intelligence side or the military side. You know,
Speaker 1: the folks whose daily jobs was intelligent side to figure
Speaker 1: out where bin Laden was and when they got, you know,
Speaker 1: the lead to this compound, to try to make the
Speaker 1: case that this was different than all the other leads
Speaker 1: they've gotten before. And then of course on the military side,
Speaker 1: you know very well, I mean, it really is in
Speaker 1: the details that these missions succeed or fail. So you know,
Speaker 1: getting a sense from the folks who had to do
Speaker 1: not just the detailed planning, but the details of the
Speaker 1: operation as it was happening, because you know, when that
Speaker 1: first helicopter went down, of course, nobody knew immediately whether
Speaker 1: the thing had blown up, whether everybody had been killed
Speaker 1: or whatever, but they were out on the ground, All
Speaker 1: of all of the operators in that helicopter were out
Speaker 1: on the ground within a minute, and so the delay
Speaker 1: from this helicopter crashing was maybe ninety seconds or so.
Speaker 1: And of course it left them in a position that
Speaker 1: they weren't originally planning to be in. That's why the
Speaker 1: model planning was so important, because they knew what was
Speaker 1: on the other side of the wall that they had
Speaker 1: to get through. And the second helicopter, instead of bringing
Speaker 1: their folks in and putting them down on the roof
Speaker 1: of the building, which was the original plan, they landed
Speaker 1: him outside the compound entirely, and so that didn't stop anybody.
Speaker 1: The improvisation, just the planning, the ability to react quickly,
Speaker 1: I mean, frankly, it seems to me that's what allows
Speaker 1: for the selection of these folks to be in the
Speaker 1: positions there in they know how to think and act
Speaker 1: under conditions of great stress. But even taking into account
Speaker 1: the crash of the helicopter by ten minut it's this this,
Speaker 1: this hunt for Bin Lawton is over. There's been a
Speaker 1: firefight in the southern building in the compound with one
Speaker 1: of the couriers. The other of the courier is killed
Speaker 1: on the first floor of the main building. The man
Speaker 1: who turns out to be Bin Lawton's son is killed
Speaker 1: on the second floor of the main building. And already
Speaker 1: then so you realize there's been an exchange of fire.
Speaker 1: There are other armed people who have been killed before
Speaker 1: they could fire on them. But you're now in essentially
Speaker 1: a combat situation. And then you're still going up to
Speaker 1: the third floor in this dark building which everybody had
Speaker 1: wondered whether or not it was booby trapped to blow entirely,
Speaker 1: and there they go up and um, that's where the
Speaker 1: mission is complete. But it's really really it's an amazing
Speaker 1: fact of this thing that through the ten years of
Speaker 1: the hunt, the first time they knew for sure that
Speaker 1: Bin Lawden was in that building was when they saw
Speaker 1: him on the floor of his bedroom having been shot.
Speaker 1: It's really remarkable. Yeah, you know, going through, like I said,
Speaker 1: the digital part of the museum, you know that you
Speaker 1: had a quote from one of the Navy seals and
Speaker 1: he mentioned said, you know, as they were going through
Speaker 1: the compound, the women were trying to martyr themselves to
Speaker 1: save their husbands. And that's when the seals kind of
Speaker 1: knew right away that something, something was very big in
Speaker 1: that compound, so that it hadn't been confirmed, but it
Speaker 1: would be just seconds later, but that they kind of
Speaker 1: knew at that point. And I saw where you did
Speaker 1: interviews with a lot of the seals were on the
Speaker 1: operation as well. That's right, we had. They were all
Speaker 1: done anonymously, but we have six of the seal operators
Speaker 1: we interviewed, I think unfortunately five made it into the film, uh,
Speaker 1: six or in the exhibition. Uh And so from different
Speaker 1: perspectives being on different helicopters and and just you know
Speaker 1: what that was like because you know, the guys on
Speaker 1: the second helicopter. Um, they knew there was a problem
Speaker 1: with the first one, but they didn't know what had happened.
Speaker 1: And so they're outside the compound, their colleagues have gone down.
Speaker 1: For all they know, they're dead, and so they're on
Speaker 1: their own now, and they still got to carry out
Speaker 1: the mission. And so again, um, that ability to just
Speaker 1: figure out how to do the job is remarkable, And
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the point of, you know,
Speaker 1: their recognition of different indicators that this was a really
Speaker 1: serious place, including the role of the women in defending
Speaker 1: their husbands. You know, we have a couple of moments
Speaker 1: in the film where it's almost like the intelligence checklist
Speaker 1: that they were given before the mission is sort of
Speaker 1: running through their heads and they're checking off boxes on
Speaker 1: their briefing as they're encountering things in the compound. That absolutely,
Speaker 1: as you say, really gave them a sense that this
Speaker 1: is serious stuff. We're onto something big here, because what's
Speaker 1: happening to us right now is exactly what intelligence folks
Speaker 1: thought would be happening if we were dealing with bin Laden. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's uh, I mean, I've I've read some of the
Speaker 1: the accounts of the of the raid there and everyone
Speaker 1: who was involved in that. It speaks so highly of
Speaker 1: all of them because of the level of planning that
Speaker 1: we all know goes in those types of operations, and
Speaker 1: those those helicopter pilots having flown with them in the past,
Speaker 1: not you know, these particular ones, but as that's part
Speaker 1: of the UH one sixty Special Operations. Aviation guys, those
Speaker 1: are the best pilots I've seen anywhere. UM they'll scare
Speaker 1: the heck out of you when you're flying with them
Speaker 1: because they fly right at the limit a lot of times.
Speaker 1: But there's no better people. And the fact that everyone
Speaker 1: was able to come out of that, you know, alive,
Speaker 1: and they were able to accomplish their mission, It's just
Speaker 1: absolutely amazing. I'm really looking forward to this UH special
Speaker 1: on Sunday night. Thank you, Steve. I. I will say
Speaker 1: the one UM had has just a remarkable history, but
Speaker 1: you know, it really burnished that history even further with
Speaker 1: this mission. One of the most remarkable things about the
Speaker 1: aviation piece of this. You the helicopter who went down,
Speaker 1: UM the pilot controlled that landing to the point that
Speaker 1: he was able to set the rear wheel of the helicopter,
Speaker 1: which at that point was losing power, so it's not
Speaker 1: in total control, not in his total control. He's able
Speaker 1: to set the rear wheel on the top of the wall,
Speaker 1: so you know, the foot either way and rear section
Speaker 1: breaks off and you probably have an explosion. But he
Speaker 1: puts it down so the wheel is resting on the wall,
Speaker 1: and we actually animate this in the film. Obviously you
Speaker 1: don't have video of it happening, but you know, it's
Speaker 1: just a remarkable thing. And of course the front of
Speaker 1: the helicopter sort of bumps down, but everybody gets off
Speaker 1: and carries out the mission. It's just incredible, it is,
Speaker 1: and that's a supreme, you know, example of tremendous flying
Speaker 1: and what people don't understand. You know. I remember talking
Speaker 1: with some people who don't understand a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: the military side of things, and they were like, well,
Speaker 1: if the policy are so great, why they crash it?
Speaker 1: And I was like, you don't understand. When you're flying
Speaker 1: into a compound, helicopter usually pushes the air out. That's
Speaker 1: what it gives it. You know, it's lift capability. When
Speaker 1: you're flying into a walled compound, that air circulates back up. Underneath,
Speaker 1: and it takes away your lift, and it takes away
Speaker 1: a lot of the um stability of these things, and
Speaker 1: it takes a tremendous amount of flying skill to do
Speaker 1: with that guy did and not get anybody hurt. That
Speaker 1: was the amazing thing that that that aircraft went down.
Speaker 1: But all of those guys were, like you just mentioned,
Speaker 1: they were able to get off safely to finish their mission.
Speaker 1: They did what they needed to do. Everyone walked away
Speaker 1: from it, and then they blew the helicopter up to
Speaker 1: you know, the stealth technology was saying, it's it's incredible.
Speaker 1: I mean, I will say, I mean I've spoken to
Speaker 1: some of the guys around that helicopter and they did
Speaker 1: have some issues, uh you know afterwards, just having from
Speaker 1: the from banging so into the ground. But they went
Speaker 1: ahead and did that mission. I mean, it really shows that,
Speaker 1: you know, the true test of these fox their training,
Speaker 1: their talents, their commitment. It's not when the plan is
Speaker 1: going as it's supposed to go. It's when the plan
Speaker 1: goes south and you still have to fulfill the mission.
Speaker 1: And you know, if anything shows just what the quality
Speaker 1: of of the folks involved was, it was just that
Speaker 1: moment and of course everything that was done getting them
Speaker 1: in and out and the seals operating on the ground
Speaker 1: in that compound. Um, it's just you know, one moment
Speaker 1: after another of you know, your heart and your throat. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean think about it this way, Steve. I mean,
Speaker 1: everybody knows the outcome of this story, but it's so
Speaker 1: tense to follow it to the completion, even though you
Speaker 1: know the outcome, because it's just it's crazy that this
Speaker 1: actually happened and they managed to do it as well
Speaker 1: as they did. So I I one of the things
Speaker 1: you know, we in making the film sort of thought
Speaker 1: a lot about, you know, how do you keep how
Speaker 1: do you keep the ten in a story where you
Speaker 1: know the outcome? But the simple answer is if you
Speaker 1: show just how much they had to take into account
Speaker 1: along the way, all of those risks and what actually happened,
Speaker 1: it just maintains at tension by itself. Absolutely. And uh,
Speaker 1: I know time is short. I know you have other
Speaker 1: commitments today, but before we let you go, is there
Speaker 1: anything else you'd like to add above the museum, the
Speaker 1: memorial as well as the upcoming TV special. Well, I'll
Speaker 1: do a couple of little plugs here and one is
Speaker 1: the History Channel Sunday, May second, eight o'clock Pacific and
Speaker 1: Eastern time. UM. We are open again at the museum,
Speaker 1: including the exhibition, so folks in New York are more
Speaker 1: than welcome to come. But if you're interested, we also
Speaker 1: have virtual tours of the museum itself, of the Memorial
Speaker 1: and of the special exhibition on the Hunt for Bin
Speaker 1: Laden And people can go to our website, even Memorial
Speaker 1: dot or our g and they can find those tours
Speaker 1: and sign up for the virtual tours from wherever they're located.
Speaker 1: We would love to see folks at the museum when
Speaker 1: they're comfortable, UM and able to travel safely, but you know,
Speaker 1: in the event that that's not in the immediate future
Speaker 1: for you, UM, I would urge folks to take a
Speaker 1: look at the website and come to on one of
Speaker 1: our virtual tours. Well, we want to thank you very
Speaker 1: much for your time this afternoon, and before we go,
Speaker 1: we just need to read a quick little note here.
Speaker 1: If you want to get soft Reap on your phone,
Speaker 1: download our free mobile app and get easy access to
Speaker 1: our articles, podcast and geary views, all perfectly format it
Speaker 1: to your device. Please subscribe to software dot com to
Speaker 1: get access to our library of e books and our
Speaker 1: exclusive team room forms and content available on all your
Speaker 1: Apple and Android devices. We want to thank our guests
Speaker 1: today Clifford Training for from the nine eleven Memorial and Museum,
Speaker 1: and we heard all of our listeners and readers out there.
Speaker 1: Check out this special, The Hunt for Bin Laden. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be on the History Channel on Sunday evening eight o'clock.
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be fantastic. Sir, Thank you once
Speaker 1: again for joining us. We really appreciate the time this afternoon.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Steve. I love doing it. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: we look forward to visiting in person as well the
Speaker 1: next time we're back up in the Northeast. All right, thanks,
Speaker 1: take care YouTube you've been listening to self red Lydia
Speaker 1: m