Speaker 1: Beat. If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Software Radio Special Operations, military news and
Speaker 1: straight talk with the guys in the community. Hello and everyone,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Software Radio, Software Bradio on Time on Target.
Speaker 1: I'm you host this afternoon, Steve belsh Ferry. We have
Speaker 1: a very special guest with us today, Michelle Black. And
Speaker 1: many of you may have already heard about her book
Speaker 1: that just came out. It's called Sacrifice, and we did
Speaker 1: a book review on that on the on the website,
Speaker 1: and uh, Michelle's graciously agreed to come on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Well this she's gonna talk to us about her her book.
Speaker 1: She's going to talk to us obviously about her husband, Brian,
Speaker 1: who was killed in action in Niger back in two
Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen, and we're going to talk all about
Speaker 1: that and and you know, she'll fill us in on
Speaker 1: everything that's going on with her in the book. And
Speaker 1: you know, I think, uh, well, before we go any further,
Speaker 1: I want to welcome Michelle to the podcast. Michelle, thanks
Speaker 1: for taking the time with us this afternoon. We really
Speaker 1: appreciate it absolutely. Thank you for having me on. Steve.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to be here. Well, thank you. And
Speaker 1: you know about your book, I know, it's it's a
Speaker 1: kind of a memoir of not only your life as
Speaker 1: you go into the book about you know, your your
Speaker 1: life with your husband, you know, as you guys met
Speaker 1: all the way through everything that happened. But I think,
Speaker 1: you know, when after I read this, you know, I
Speaker 1: think this is very important, not only from the historical
Speaker 1: fact and what your family and the other families of
Speaker 1: the SF team went through, but this is mainly to me,
Speaker 1: it's about the sacrifice of families and it shows how
Speaker 1: deep our families are impacted, not only just when somebody
Speaker 1: gets hurt or killed in action, but what you've you know,
Speaker 1: go through. And it's easy for the s F guys,
Speaker 1: you know, because we go out and you know, we're
Speaker 1: obsessed with the mission while we're gone, and you know,
Speaker 1: we're focused on that. But the families back home, you
Speaker 1: guys have to deal with the unknown, and you're always
Speaker 1: thinking worst case scenario while the guys are gone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's absolutely true. So it's that's that's the challenge, the unknown.
Speaker 1: Why isn't he calling? Why? You know, um? And you
Speaker 1: always jump to the worst conclusion so it's it's a
Speaker 1: whole different thing back home and raising the kids and
Speaker 1: waiting for the phone calls, and as you know in
Speaker 1: s F, it'll be you know, it could be a
Speaker 1: day or two until I hear from Brian. It might
Speaker 1: be a month. Um, he had a habit of buying
Speaker 1: cheap phones and hoping you know, he'd get away with
Speaker 1: that on deployment, so you know you'd call me on
Speaker 1: other guy's phones occasionally. Yeah, And you know it's tough
Speaker 1: for the families. I mean, even on a training deployment,
Speaker 1: well the guys are gone, you still have to deal
Speaker 1: with everything that's going on back home and the kid.
Speaker 1: You have kids of your own, and we'll get into
Speaker 1: all that, but you know, raising the kids, taking care
Speaker 1: of all the household, there's things that came up, and
Speaker 1: you know, wives have to be as strong, if not stronger,
Speaker 1: in a lot of aspects than the husbands. That's absolutely true.
Speaker 1: You know, I know I go in on the book.
Speaker 1: You know, I talked about my son Ezekiel, and so
Speaker 1: there were those issues where he has autism and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to deal with him getting you know, kicked out
Speaker 1: of this sporting event or him you know, getting kicked
Speaker 1: out of class for the day or whatever else, and
Speaker 1: then having you know, having to learn UM what an
Speaker 1: i e P Is, which is an individualized education plan
Speaker 1: and go up against the entire administration out of school
Speaker 1: and fight for him while I'm trying to raise my toddler.
Speaker 1: And it just it was constant and there was no
Speaker 1: UM downtime for me when Brian was gone at all,
Speaker 1: and then taking care of the house and everything else. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In fact, we were talking offline and we were comparing
Speaker 1: notes about autistic kids, as my son is mildly autistic
Speaker 1: as well. And it is when, especially when you first
Speaker 1: start that journey, you know, you're going through so much
Speaker 1: unknown You're trying to figure out, you know, how do
Speaker 1: I how do I open that door just a cracked
Speaker 1: where I get in where I'm seeing things from him.
Speaker 1: And it was funny because then now years later, my
Speaker 1: son has gone through so much therapy and he's able to,
Speaker 1: you know, talk to us more, and he was like,
Speaker 1: you know, you see things as as like a motion
Speaker 1: picture where everything goes, you know, in a sequence, and
Speaker 1: he goes I see things as a series of snapshots
Speaker 1: and everything stops. So I have to stop and look
Speaker 1: at that snapshot of things, and it's it's amazing what
Speaker 1: those kids go through. But I know that from reading
Speaker 1: your book, your son did very, very well once he
Speaker 1: got into the therapy. He did. Yeah, And it seems
Speaker 1: like even it's been amazing because since losing Brian, Ezekiel
Speaker 1: almost stepped up into Brian's place and tried to become
Speaker 1: almost ahead of the household. So you know, there's one
Speaker 1: one instance where I talk about, We're at the airport
Speaker 1: getting picking Brian's body up from r d U, and
Speaker 1: Ezekiel looks over, grabs my hand and looks up at
Speaker 1: me and just kind of nods his head and gives
Speaker 1: a reassuring stare, and then he takes the first step
Speaker 1: forward and essentially leads me and the other two or
Speaker 1: me and my other son forward, um towards the tarmac.
Speaker 1: And uh, since then, I feel like that's what he does.
Speaker 1: He's just and he's grown and become even more um
Speaker 1: almost higher functioning. People now wouldn't guess he's autistic. He's
Speaker 1: getting straight a's in high school. He's on the swim team,
Speaker 1: on the water polo team, he's got plans for college,
Speaker 1: and he wants to go into a sup Of course, no,
Speaker 1: we get you know, you're talking to a bunch of
Speaker 1: s F guys here in soft repisode. We can't argue
Speaker 1: with that choice. But that's uh, that's awesome. And now
Speaker 1: how old is he? Now? He's got be what about sixteen?
Speaker 1: He's fourteen, he'll be fifteen this summer. Yeah. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: so you know, let's jump backwards a bit. Tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit about how you and your husband mad
Speaker 1: I thought that was a really intriguing part of the book.
Speaker 1: And you know, your husband was, you know, he was
Speaker 1: kind of almost like a renaissance man. He was into
Speaker 1: a lot of different things, and he was very successful
Speaker 1: at everything he did. Yeah, he really was. It's funny because, um,
Speaker 1: I had grown up, you know, doing a lot of skiing.
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with snowboarding. So after I graduated college,
Speaker 1: I went up and thought, I'm gonna instruct snowboarding and
Speaker 1: just have some fun blow off steam and in walks.
Speaker 1: This really dorky guy, you know, I mean, he clearly
Speaker 1: was a wrestler. Looked like he had to have two
Speaker 1: black eyes, big you know, thick neck, and he's wearing
Speaker 1: like a ski sweater, and type jeans, and this is
Speaker 1: a snowboarder crowd. We've all got on our saggy pants
Speaker 1: and you know, our for line jackets. We were all
Speaker 1: super cool and he was not cool. And so I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, I got to get to know this guy.
Speaker 1: So he was playing online poker at the time, so
Speaker 1: complete misfit. But what was funny is would he'd be
Speaker 1: playing poker. He ended up moving in with some friends
Speaker 1: of ours, and I would go over there and he'd
Speaker 1: have his computer screen open and he'd he'd have open,
Speaker 1: you know, four UM poker tables going online, and then
Speaker 1: he'd have three or four UM chess tables open and
Speaker 1: going speed chess, and he'd go click click click click, click,
Speaker 1: click click click, and he'd walk in And I remember
Speaker 1: one time one of his roommates go, I walked in
Speaker 1: there to ask him what he was doing, and all
Speaker 1: he responded was I'm winning and that's it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: we started. UM, I just started to get to know
Speaker 1: him as a friend. He was dating a coworker of mine,
Speaker 1: and um then we started doing a lot of backpacking trips,
Speaker 1: hiking trips up through the Eastern High Sierra along the
Speaker 1: Pacific Crest trail and then one day he just decided
Speaker 1: I was going to be his girlfriend and wouldn't take
Speaker 1: no for an answer because and it kind of went
Speaker 1: from there. So yeah, well that sounds like how I
Speaker 1: met my wife. She came down to visit her parents
Speaker 1: in North Carolina. Her father was in the trucking industry
Speaker 1: and they moved him to Fayetteville, and she just came
Speaker 1: down to visit them for a long weekend and then
Speaker 1: I kind of kidnapped her and said that you're going
Speaker 1: back home to New York. So, you know, thirty years later,
Speaker 1: here we are still so but you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I just like if she could put up with me,
Speaker 1: then she was a keeper. So but anyway, UM, so
Speaker 1: you and Brian met and you started dating, and then
Speaker 1: you guys got married and you lived in California for
Speaker 1: a while before he joined the military. We did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we were married for probably, um, I want to say,
Speaker 1: three years before he decided to join UM And it
Speaker 1: was around two thousand and eight, when you know, they're
Speaker 1: just the economic crisis hit and it was you know,
Speaker 1: he'd been playing online poker for a living. So the
Speaker 1: internet restrictions tightened up under Obama and so all of
Speaker 1: a sudden he had pulled all his money out and
Speaker 1: it wasn't safe to keep it online in the banks
Speaker 1: that he needed to in order to keep playing UM
Speaker 1: and then to UM. He'd had a business degree and
Speaker 1: he was trying to apply everywhere, but because he's been
Speaker 1: playing poker instead of working with his degree, he had
Speaker 1: no experience. And so he finally went, listen, UM, I've
Speaker 1: always wanted to be, you know, a n AB seal
Speaker 1: or a green beret. So what do you say? I
Speaker 1: joined the military. Then we get all this coverage and
Speaker 1: I can have a shot at this, And I went,
Speaker 1: why not? You know, UM, I think you know, that's
Speaker 1: what makes you happy, go for it. So it was
Speaker 1: I think two thousand nine when he joined. And then
Speaker 1: you guys, UM, I think he in the book you mentioned,
Speaker 1: was it for Carson that you were stationed at first
Speaker 1: before he tried out for s F A S. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he UM. When he first went in, he went
Speaker 1: in as a metic and we got stationed out of
Speaker 1: cash and for Carson, which you know, for Carson, h
Speaker 1: was amazing. We did a lot of skiing and hiking
Speaker 1: and whatever. But you know, as far as his job went,
Speaker 1: I was so busy with Ezy Gil and and all
Speaker 1: of the optism and just the craziness, and he was
Speaker 1: starting to get bored at work. So he actually had
Speaker 1: more free time than I did. I think during that
Speaker 1: time he'd come home and I'd be busy off it,
Speaker 1: you know, therapy sessions and what not with the kids.
Speaker 1: So he decided to go to s f a S.
Speaker 1: And that kind of fast tracked us. Within a year
Speaker 1: and a half he went to s f a S. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in fact, I worked out there. It's one of the
Speaker 1: cadreing members. So went into your book when you talked
Speaker 1: about he came home and he had lost quite a
Speaker 1: bit of weight in a very short amount of time.
Speaker 1: I was like, well, things haven't changed the s f
Speaker 1: A S since I was there. So that's that is
Speaker 1: a smoker, of of course. And I tell people, you know,
Speaker 1: here at software we get emails all the time from
Speaker 1: young guys that are going through and they asked for
Speaker 1: for tips and you know, advice, and I just tell him,
Speaker 1: be in the best shape you've ever dreamed of in
Speaker 1: your life, and you're still gonna get smoked. You're gonna
Speaker 1: lose a lot of weight. And by the time you finish,
Speaker 1: you're gonna feel like you've been through the wringer. And
Speaker 1: that's that's what that it's all about. But obviously he
Speaker 1: did real well in it. He was selected, he went
Speaker 1: to school, and then you guys moved to wonderful time
Speaker 1: in Fayetteville. Yes, yes, we did. Yeah. It's like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, of all the places in North Carolina, people
Speaker 1: ask me all the time, what's favable, Like Faivl is
Speaker 1: not what I would consider North Carolina. It's just kind
Speaker 1: of there. It's a military basis, not where I would
Speaker 1: choose to live. The rest of the state was gorgeous.
Speaker 1: I love the mountains, I love the ocean, but Faville
Speaker 1: not so much. Yeah, same here. Um, yeah, we loved
Speaker 1: going up to Asheville or you know, out to Rightsville.
Speaker 1: But what part of town did you guys live in?
Speaker 1: We actually lived um up off of Ramsey, so we're
Speaker 1: in kind of a rougher area the Walmart, but they'd
Speaker 1: start we didn't know. We wanted to buy a house
Speaker 1: and we found this gorgeous house in this old neighborhood
Speaker 1: and you know, honestly, getting into that old neighborhood are
Speaker 1: are neighbors were amazing, but you know, you step two
Speaker 1: streets over and you don't go out at night, you know,
Speaker 1: so live and learn, you know, next time Southern Pines.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I loved way out for Rayford Road.
Speaker 1: At that time. It was when you get out past
Speaker 1: certain points like Copdale, it was wide open. Now I've
Speaker 1: I haven't been back there in a couple of years
Speaker 1: that I heard that's all built up, So yeah it is.
Speaker 1: It's nice out there. Yeah, yeah, it's much nicer than
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, it was definitely would have been a
Speaker 1: step up for us. So anyway, m Bryan gets through
Speaker 1: SF you know, he gets the third group talk to
Speaker 1: us about that time and then lead us into you know,
Speaker 1: the events of what what happened. Yeah, well you know,
Speaker 1: honestly the time period when he um, when we got
Speaker 1: to Fayette Lle and he was going through the key course,
Speaker 1: that was chaotic UM And because like I said, I
Speaker 1: was busy with Easy Kill and all the all the
Speaker 1: chaos and trying to get him the therapy and into
Speaker 1: regular classrooms and and Brian was just gone, you know,
Speaker 1: as it goes with the que course. UM. But then
Speaker 1: he graduated in two thousand fifteen and Um last minute
Speaker 1: joined a B team over in Afghanistan and was there
Speaker 1: for a few months, came back and was home for
Speaker 1: maybe a couple of weeks and went to Ranger school.
Speaker 1: So then he was gone for another what three months,
Speaker 1: and then graduated that in April of two thousand sixteen,
Speaker 1: and then instantly that he got home April one, which
Speaker 1: was my birthday. And then I think May fifteen, he
Speaker 1: was already on Team three two one two and they
Speaker 1: went on their first deployment to Niger. So he was
Speaker 1: gone within a month. Um yeah, and they came back
Speaker 1: around October I believe that year. So yeah, it was
Speaker 1: just fast, you know, really fast. But he loved it.
Speaker 1: He loved being a Niger. He had um learned. He
Speaker 1: had taught himself to speak French and helps so he
Speaker 1: could speak with the local Nigerians. And so by the
Speaker 1: time he came home, he was really excited. You know,
Speaker 1: I gotta go speak with all the local peoples, because
Speaker 1: the village people. It was fun. Um. Granted, he was
Speaker 1: somewhat I think he was hoping when he got into
Speaker 1: Special Forces he would have more independence and less paperwork
Speaker 1: and bureaucracy. And when he saw that it was still
Speaker 1: a lot of paperwork and all the bureaucracy of everything
Speaker 1: he was he was getting pretty frustrated. Um, and he
Speaker 1: was like, you know, I might not do this for
Speaker 1: as long as I as I thought I would. So
Speaker 1: he loved the medicine part of it, and he loved
Speaker 1: the independence, but the bureaucratry didn't give him as much
Speaker 1: independence as he wanted. Yeah, that's the military. I mean,
Speaker 1: if they can figure out a way to you know,
Speaker 1: tie you down with paper, the needless paper too. And
Speaker 1: after you know, I started off as an enlisted guy
Speaker 1: that after I became an officer, I never did paperwork.
Speaker 1: I should throw it all away. They send me big
Speaker 1: stacks that throw it all away. I was like, I
Speaker 1: need to do this when I was in the list
Speaker 1: of guy, I refused to do it because it was stupid.
Speaker 1: And that's the army takes. We always used to say,
Speaker 1: they take all the fun out of everything. So um,
Speaker 1: but that's that's typical. But yeah, you know, we're reading
Speaker 1: the book. I got that sense that your husband loved
Speaker 1: that part of SF where you know you're interacting with
Speaker 1: the people. You you know, he's taught himself a little
Speaker 1: bit of the language. And what a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't realize is in Africa they speak so many different languages.
Speaker 1: It's it's really really difficult. You can't say, oh, he's
Speaker 1: fluent and everything they speak there, because I don't think
Speaker 1: anybody is, even people who lived there round. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: but you know, even just picking one of the languages
Speaker 1: and working on it, that that buy so much favor
Speaker 1: with the low Wells that it was amazing what happened
Speaker 1: when he learned. How so he ended up um becoming
Speaker 1: friends with the like one of their little local right
Speaker 1: near their base. Because the first time they were where
Speaker 1: were they, I think they were Maraudi. So there was
Speaker 1: a village there, and he would go into Maraudi and
Speaker 1: became friends with village a village chief. And so then
Speaker 1: the village chief tried to get him to marry his
Speaker 1: daughter and bring her home, and he said, well, I'm
Speaker 1: already married. In America, we don't marry more than one woman,
Speaker 1: so you know, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to decline.
Speaker 1: And by the end his village, the village chief liked him,
Speaker 1: so he decided to give him a gift, a wedding gift,
Speaker 1: and it was a traditional wedding gift for the Nigerian
Speaker 1: people and it was knives. I guess they present to
Speaker 1: the couple. They each have a knife, so uh, I
Speaker 1: guess it means if one of us breaks a wedding vow,
Speaker 1: we can kill the other. So we so I have
Speaker 1: the two traditional marriage knives. That's amazing. I didn't know
Speaker 1: that that's learned something new every day. So yeah, but
Speaker 1: I know this is a difficult part. But take us
Speaker 1: to U that last deployment of his. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it was interesting. The plan was he had, Like I said,
Speaker 1: he'd grown tired of doing all the paperwork and he
Speaker 1: started to think, well, he'd always wanted to run his
Speaker 1: own business. He'd always wanted to be involved in stocks.
Speaker 1: He had, so after telling me kind of his complaints
Speaker 1: about it that winter after he got home from his
Speaker 1: first deployment, I said, well, if you could do anything
Speaker 1: in the world, what would it be. Oh, I would
Speaker 1: love to build a stop trading program, you know, develop
Speaker 1: one where you know it can um predict the movement
Speaker 1: of stocks with some degree of predictability. So I said, well,
Speaker 1: why don't you just do it? So oddly enough over
Speaker 1: the next you know, however, many months he was home,
Speaker 1: he built a stock trading algorith him and UM he
Speaker 1: was in the initial phases, the beta testing, and UM
Speaker 1: he took his computer with him, and UH he was
Speaker 1: deciding that spring whether he should just get out then
Speaker 1: or sign on for another stent and use that money
Speaker 1: from the bonus to kind of launch his program. So
Speaker 1: we decided, okay, let's take let's sign on, take that
Speaker 1: money and use it to launch the program, and then
Speaker 1: you would only have you know this this deployment UM
Speaker 1: in the fall, and one more following UM. But by
Speaker 1: the time we reached fall, he didn't say anything, but
Speaker 1: I think he was feeling the same way I would.
Speaker 1: I was. There was just a lot of like hesitation.
Speaker 1: It's just something felt off. And I've never really been
Speaker 1: scared when he deployed, you know, nothing had ever concerned
Speaker 1: maybehen he left done training or deployments, I've never felt
Speaker 1: any unease. UM, but something just felt wrong this time,
Speaker 1: and I didn't want to let him go. UM. And
Speaker 1: you know, it was the first time where we both
Speaker 1: were like hesitating at the airport and like okay, okay,
Speaker 1: well we'll see you later. You know, this very like uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: like something that's not right, and we're doing like second
Speaker 1: and third hugs, and I'm almost crying and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I just don't feel right this time. And he left
Speaker 1: um and and I didn't put this in the book,
Speaker 1: but a few weeks later, um Isaac, our youngest son,
Speaker 1: looks up at me. He comes in the house after
Speaker 1: school and he goes, Death's not coming home, is he?
Speaker 1: And I freaked out because I've been feeling that way,
Speaker 1: um and so UM. Honestly, since he had left, I
Speaker 1: kept daily I would look out the window and see
Speaker 1: if there were any government cars pulling up, anyone in
Speaker 1: uniforms around UM. And when he said that, it really
Speaker 1: shook me. And I said, oh, no, Dad's fine. Dad's
Speaker 1: totally fine. We just need to pray. So we started
Speaker 1: praying every night. UM. And then about a day or
Speaker 1: two before I got the knock, I was walking through
Speaker 1: my bedroom and I remember being stopped in one place
Speaker 1: and I just felt like the spirit of God all
Speaker 1: around me, like just this heavy thing, and it was
Speaker 1: like peace. But then I felt like him saying, trust me,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be okay, and that it happened one other
Speaker 1: time in my life, and it was the day before
Speaker 1: my dad died. So I panicked. UM, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: trust you you know uh so, um yeah, I was,
Speaker 1: it was expecting it mm hm. And you know then, uh,
Speaker 1: the events that transpired. You know, the team was given
Speaker 1: a mission that honestly and reading the book again as well,
Speaker 1: you know, they were given a mission with a two
Speaker 1: hour window of intelligence, which they had a four hour drive,
Speaker 1: so if they had left immediately upon getting it, they
Speaker 1: still would have been late. And they kind of pushed
Speaker 1: back on it. They were told to go continue with
Speaker 1: the mission. Then the concept of the operation, which was
Speaker 1: a big part of this later on, got changed twice,
Speaker 1: which they had nothing to do with. We understand that.
Speaker 1: You know, when they ended up in the village of
Speaker 1: Tongo Tongo, the village chief kind of delayed them long
Speaker 1: enough and it seemed like he was part of the
Speaker 1: isis planned to ambush them when they left. Um, after
Speaker 1: all this is going on now you know what transpired,
Speaker 1: The team got ambush. For the team members, including your husband,
Speaker 1: were killed in action. Several were wounded, including their team leading. Um,
Speaker 1: the army wasn't very forthcoming with details with you. And
Speaker 1: please take our listeners through that a little bit well,
Speaker 1: you know, the the third third group commander was one
Speaker 1: of the first ones to stop by our house and
Speaker 1: he essentially told us, you know, Ms Black. All we
Speaker 1: really know at this point is that they were on
Speaker 1: a routine patrol. Beyond that, we don't know any details,
Speaker 1: and um, you know, as they come, we'll let you know.
Speaker 1: And that was, you know, in October, right after it happened. Um,
Speaker 1: and then pretty much from then on out, all I
Speaker 1: got was whatever came through the news. So we were
Speaker 1: waiting on the investigation, and you know, what was coming
Speaker 1: through the news didn't make any sense. It was you know,
Speaker 1: this has been leaked from an infisihal An official involved
Speaker 1: in the investigation saying that you know, Captain Perezini and
Speaker 1: the team, they acted like a team of cowboys and
Speaker 1: went rogue, going on a killer capture mission after a
Speaker 1: you know, high value target. And to me, I mean,
Speaker 1: take into account everything I just said about my husband.
Speaker 1: He wasn't going to go rogue after all, high value target,
Speaker 1: risking his life and his career. Um, it's just none
Speaker 1: of it fit. My husband was a thinking man. He
Speaker 1: was a master of chess, spook several languages. He was
Speaker 1: very black and white, and one thing from his years
Speaker 1: of playing poker and chess, he thought several moves ahead.
Speaker 1: He always knew the odds of everything, and you know,
Speaker 1: he just there's there's no way. And anyone who's in
Speaker 1: the soft community knows you don't go against orders high
Speaker 1: things from your you know, higher level of right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So as I'm hearing all of this, I'm just going this,
Speaker 1: No of this fits. But what I did hold out, Um,
Speaker 1: I shouldn't even say hope. I mean I expected the
Speaker 1: military to come in when we finally got our brief
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, these are just rumors, these are just
Speaker 1: you know, news reports. Ignore them, Um, this is what happened,
Speaker 1: and get a very detailed timeline, you know, of the events,
Speaker 1: and a very detailed explanation of the chain of command
Speaker 1: and how those command decisions were made, who made them, why,
Speaker 1: you know, and even if there had been a mistake,
Speaker 1: a major blunder. I didn't care about punishments. I just
Speaker 1: wanted the truth. I didn't feel like anybody needed to
Speaker 1: be punished because these things happen. Mistakes happen. That's not
Speaker 1: a big deal, you know, But that's how you learn.
Speaker 1: It's when you don't admit to the mistakes and really
Speaker 1: assess those and learn from them. That it becomes a
Speaker 1: problem because then you're going to continue leading men into
Speaker 1: battle and costing more lives. And that that was the
Speaker 1: basically the crux of the book, because the team realized
Speaker 1: the mission was messed up from from the beginning, and
Speaker 1: they frequently called back. I think it was three times.
Speaker 1: It might have been to only two, but at least
Speaker 1: two to three times they asked to go back because
Speaker 1: they knew it was messed up. And then they were
Speaker 1: supposed to be the um the basic quick reaction for
Speaker 1: us to a hell born unit, and then that got canceled,
Speaker 1: and then they gave it to them that they had
Speaker 1: no metavac on station, they had no air support, they
Speaker 1: had no eyes in the air, no drone support. It
Speaker 1: was just a totally watched mission. And the captain in
Speaker 1: in your book, he asked several times for them to
Speaker 1: reconsider this, and then they ordered him to go forward anyway.
Speaker 1: And then they basically as soon as everything went to
Speaker 1: hell in a handbasket outside of that village, they threw
Speaker 1: him right under the bus. They did of the team,
Speaker 1: and there were some very specific things they like either
Speaker 1: misled or you know, left out when they were briefing us,
Speaker 1: or they just outright lied. So one of the biggest
Speaker 1: lies was, you know, in our brief we were told,
Speaker 1: you know, when they were pushed ahead to the Molly border,
Speaker 1: a second threat assessment was done before they were sent
Speaker 1: to the Molly border without team arlt UM, and it
Speaker 1: showed you know that they were they were safe going
Speaker 1: ahead alone in an eight truck convoy you know, uh
Speaker 1: the next morning. So we were told that. We found
Speaker 1: out later there was never another another second a threat
Speaker 1: a threat assessment done. So that's kind of a big deal,
Speaker 1: um not to have the property the trucks. To What
Speaker 1: people don't realize is the team wasn't over there in Humbyes.
Speaker 1: Those those Toyota high locks structs, and I think every
Speaker 1: SF guy who's ever deployed anywhere in the world, it's
Speaker 1: very familiar with Toyota high likexed structure because they they're everywhere,
Speaker 1: but they're very underpowered. They're not very good across country.
Speaker 1: It's not like having a humpy. Those things get and
Speaker 1: you you talked about it in the book that they
Speaker 1: get stuck quite often in the desert Yeah, they were
Speaker 1: having to be really careful not to get stuck on
Speaker 1: their way up because if they did, they would have
Speaker 1: to have the Nigerian counterparts pull them out and throughout
Speaker 1: the middle of the out of nowhere Africa. So if
Speaker 1: they need help and the Nigerians can't pull them out,
Speaker 1: there's not much they can do. Um, and they're in
Speaker 1: the middle of enemy territory, you know, at at night.
Speaker 1: So that was one of the big things, you know,
Speaker 1: the trucks, the threat assessment. But then there were there
Speaker 1: were things that just were inaccurate when they briefed us,
Speaker 1: you know, like Captain Perezini, you know, when they were
Speaker 1: in the kill zone. Um, he decided to stop the trucks.
Speaker 1: And this, you know, this was a huge issue on
Speaker 1: the media among the families. You know, he stopped in
Speaker 1: the kill zone. Why would you stop in the kill zone?
Speaker 1: They showed that, and they had a like a slide show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and because I remember watching the slide show and and
Speaker 1: they showed the first trucks stopped, and the first thing
Speaker 1: that comes to mind, as any military guy, why would
Speaker 1: they stop in the kill zone. Well, then it turns
Speaker 1: out in your book, did you found out that they
Speaker 1: didn't actually stop in the kill zone and and please explain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know it because I interviewed each guy separately,
Speaker 1: So I the first guy, it's like I stopped him
Speaker 1: three times and I'm like, this really happened. And then
Speaker 1: the rest of the guys later told me the same
Speaker 1: story every time they came to my house. What happened
Speaker 1: was because they were in a by with and through mission.
Speaker 1: As they left the village, the Nigerian trucks were in
Speaker 1: the league, and so then Yugerian trucks. As the fire
Speaker 1: started to break out, they panicked and so they put
Speaker 1: the trucks in reverse and ran into the American trucks.
Speaker 1: One crash right into the front and then the other
Speaker 1: one seeing it crashed. Uh, seeing them crash, tried to
Speaker 1: whip around them and in the process clipped the same
Speaker 1: American truck and boxed them in because there was a
Speaker 1: tree on the other side of the American truck, So
Speaker 1: the lead American vehicle was completely boxed in, which brought
Speaker 1: the entire convoy to a halt in the kill zone,
Speaker 1: which really worked out well for the the enemy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, it was a mess, but you know, and
Speaker 1: that That's the thing that it seemed like everyone they
Speaker 1: talked to they discounted the people that were on the ground.
Speaker 1: Because it's clear in your book you talked to all
Speaker 1: the surviving members of the team, you interviewed them. Was
Speaker 1: it separately? You you talked to each one of them?
Speaker 1: I did, because what I didn't want to have happening
Speaker 1: is I get them all in the room and they're
Speaker 1: talking to me, and then they're correcting each other. You know,
Speaker 1: I thought, I want to see if they all have
Speaker 1: the exact same story when they're separate, and if so,
Speaker 1: then why would their accounts be discounted by Africa? Because
Speaker 1: the general officers who push that mission through, we're basically
Speaker 1: covering their own asks. Excuse my language, but yeah, that
Speaker 1: was the only conclusion I could come to, is you know,
Speaker 1: somebody's being protected, and so what what possessed you? Was
Speaker 1: it just to get to the truth? To have the
Speaker 1: team over to your house and then you kind of
Speaker 1: broached the subject with them that you'd like to do
Speaker 1: this interview with them. Um, was it just to get
Speaker 1: to the truth? I think what started, as you know,
Speaker 1: I think it was a build up. So you know, Okay,
Speaker 1: my husband died. Okay, a video was released. There reaches
Speaker 1: a level of like injustice when your own government allows
Speaker 1: you to go through all this, and that's fine, you
Speaker 1: know that that's what that's what this job is all about.
Speaker 1: You know, that's part of service and sacrifice. But then
Speaker 1: they lied to me. And then my last hope was, Okay,
Speaker 1: they're gonna go um on TV at the media brief
Speaker 1: and the africam commander General Waldhauser is going to be
Speaker 1: finally be honest, you know, and he started out with
Speaker 1: you know, I accept full responsibility for actions on the ground,
Speaker 1: was one of the first things that happened that came
Speaker 1: out of his mouth. Um But you know, what you
Speaker 1: say and what you do are two different things, so
Speaker 1: um M that I think it was a mix of
Speaker 1: what they were willing to do to the families to
Speaker 1: protect others higher up the chain, and what they were
Speaker 1: willing to do to the men on the ground who
Speaker 1: had I mean, honestly, they've been through help, they had
Speaker 1: watched their friends die, they had been ambushed um by
Speaker 1: these Isis militants, barely survived, and then they come home
Speaker 1: and they're ambushed by the press, by the families, by
Speaker 1: their own, um higher ups who should be protecting them
Speaker 1: and get thrown under the bus. And I think for
Speaker 1: me the level of injustice for them and for us. Uh.
Speaker 1: That day when General Waldhauser spoke, he said, all teams
Speaker 1: on the continent of Africa are performing optimally, but this
Speaker 1: team is not indicative of what special operators do. And
Speaker 1: so yeah, in one fell swoop, he managed to just
Speaker 1: completely disrespect the sacrifice and really the careers everything UM
Speaker 1: and dishonor my husband and every man who fought and
Speaker 1: died along with him, and the families and UM. In
Speaker 1: that moment, I just I was done. So that day
Speaker 1: I decided, Uh, you know, they write books about other operations,
Speaker 1: and there's always some journalists who does it, who says
Speaker 1: we can't do it, who says I can't do it.
Speaker 1: So I'm done. I'm gonna find the truth and I'm
Speaker 1: going to write the book. And if the book is
Speaker 1: they were protecting someone and they lied to us, well,
Speaker 1: then perfect more more stuff to put in the book.
Speaker 1: Did you have any journalistic experience prior to this. No,
Speaker 1: I've never even written. I just thought why not. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you. After reading the book, it seemed like you've
Speaker 1: been an accomplished author. Because I was looking elsewhere, I
Speaker 1: was like, this can't be the first book that she's written.
Speaker 1: It was quite well done. And yeah, it was very
Speaker 1: well done in the research was impeccable on it. And
Speaker 1: the fact that you were able to talk to the
Speaker 1: different team members. How there. I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: kept in touch with them, but they have they gotten
Speaker 1: bitter over the way they were treated by all this. No,
Speaker 1: surprisingly now they're all I mean I had one one
Speaker 1: of the men were he was younger and he lost
Speaker 1: his best friend and he got out because he just
Speaker 1: he couldn't he couldn't take it. It was it was
Speaker 1: too I think for him it was really hard. But
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that he still holds bitter feelings, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: I'd say overall, everybody's doing really well. Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1: And you know, I know you live close to your
Speaker 1: your um husband's family and you still have close contact
Speaker 1: with them. How are they handling the book, and you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure they've both read it. Um, how are your
Speaker 1: in laws handling all this? Are you getting a lot
Speaker 1: of exposure now with the media again? Um? Well, I
Speaker 1: have a feeling it's going to pick up soon with
Speaker 1: the Army start. It just came out and with you guys,
Speaker 1: and yeah, so I have a feeling, you know, over
Speaker 1: the next few weeks it'll really start to I don't
Speaker 1: think anyone took me seriously before because I've never published anything,
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, that's nice, she's writing a little book,
Speaker 1: and that's fine, you know. Um, as I said, my
Speaker 1: main goal was just to set the record straight for
Speaker 1: the men and for the families, and so that was
Speaker 1: those were really my target audiences and they're the ones
Speaker 1: that I care most about. What's their opinion. And I've
Speaker 1: gotten really at feedback and I'm very happy with that.
Speaker 1: They they are all very um happy that I wrote
Speaker 1: the book, and I've yeah, I'm glad I did it.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. And now the actual writing process of putting
Speaker 1: it together was that, you know, having never done it before,
Speaker 1: was it was it difficult to try to piece everything together. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: the writing process was much more challenging than I expected.
Speaker 1: I've always been a huge reader, so you know, I've
Speaker 1: you know, I've always got a book in my hand,
Speaker 1: even as a kid, you know, as a kid in
Speaker 1: the car with the spotlight on about just reading. But
Speaker 1: I was a super big dork. But so I thought, oh, someday,
Speaker 1: maybe I'll write a book. Who knows, you know, like,
Speaker 1: no big deal, I'll just drop that thing down and
Speaker 1: be done, and it'll be, you know, the book of
Speaker 1: my life. Um, It's not that not that simple. It
Speaker 1: was really really challenging. Um. The pieces I loved writing, obviously,
Speaker 1: where the first sections where it talks about you know, me,
Speaker 1: my family and my husband and and just our lives together.
Speaker 1: That was probably the easiest part for me. It was
Speaker 1: easy and difficult because you know, I'm crying through half
Speaker 1: of it and then I'm angry through another half. Um,
Speaker 1: and then yeah, yeah. The harder things were just Probably
Speaker 1: the most difficult thing for me, because I've never been
Speaker 1: in battle by far, was figuring out how to write
Speaker 1: the on the ground section, you know, and those part
Speaker 1: guys me like does you know, what would you say?
Speaker 1: Is this weapon? And how would it sound? And they
Speaker 1: would send me video clips and I'm like, okay, you know,
Speaker 1: so do The research was really challenging because I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I've never heard of disha. I don't think
Speaker 1: most of us have unless we've been over there fighting
Speaker 1: you know, so things like that. Fortunately, growing up the
Speaker 1: desert or near the desert, I knew, Okay, this is
Speaker 1: what motorcycles and guns out in the desert sound and
Speaker 1: feel like, and this is what it feels like out
Speaker 1: there at night. But um, that's still not nizer, you know.
Speaker 1: So trying to figure all that out, doing the research
Speaker 1: and try and put myself in a battle scenario. As
Speaker 1: anyone from so Calm or Third Group reached out to
Speaker 1: you since the book just was recently published, Um no, okay,
Speaker 1: but I don't think, you know, I don't think. I guess,
Speaker 1: I don't know what to think. I'm hoping that, you know,
Speaker 1: especially Third Group, because it was so close and personal.
Speaker 1: I think in general they'll be very receptive, except for
Speaker 1: the individuals who specifically, um did things that were wrong
Speaker 1: and and and that's the thing. I don't hold any
Speaker 1: animosity towards anybody, you know. And I love the Special
Speaker 1: Forces community. I love the you know, everything behind the
Speaker 1: military and what it does and why they do it.
Speaker 1: And I would encourage even my sons to go and hey, yeah,
Speaker 1: become a Green Beret, joined Third Group. I think this
Speaker 1: is great. I'm all about it. What I don't like
Speaker 1: is injustice that you know, these men were were forced
Speaker 1: to face over somebody's career. I mean, my husband lost
Speaker 1: his life, my children lost their dad. Um, my in
Speaker 1: laws lost their youngest son. That's horrible. And they decided, Hey,
Speaker 1: a career, you know, that is what matters here. Let's
Speaker 1: make sure to preserve this guy's career. And I'm thinking
Speaker 1: he's going to put somebody else in this same position, right,
Speaker 1: And that's what you know. Um Um. At the time,
Speaker 1: they gave general or officer letters of reprimand to the
Speaker 1: team leader. Um, but none of the higher ranking officers.
Speaker 1: They kind of whitewashed them. In general. Maddis kind of
Speaker 1: put a stop to that. But you know, um, it's
Speaker 1: just when I think of that team later, I mean
Speaker 1: to all the members of the team, but I think
Speaker 1: of the team leader, especially because he was the one
Speaker 1: whose name was really dragged through the mud as far
Speaker 1: as I was concerned after reading your book, and I just, uh,
Speaker 1: I felt really bad for him because not only did
Speaker 1: he lose a good chunk of his team, his actions
Speaker 1: were dissected, I thought unfairly to what transpired. He was
Speaker 1: wounded himself pretty seriously. Yeah, I just think the army
Speaker 1: did him a vastest service. He should have been decorated
Speaker 1: for it, as far as I'm concerned. No, I agree
Speaker 1: with you, and I know him while he's one of
Speaker 1: the most um if my husband had to say such
Speaker 1: high praises about him, which my husband didn't say. He
Speaker 1: never praised anybody. But I remember specifically, you know, before
Speaker 1: that deployment, he was like, this guy's incredible, incredibly intelligent,
Speaker 1: incredibly capable. I am glad he's going to lead us,
Speaker 1: and my husband never really he would usually end up
Speaker 1: stepping into the leadership position, you know, on in different
Speaker 1: groups because he was a natural leader and he was
Speaker 1: so intelligent. But um, he you know, he clearly trusted Mike,
Speaker 1: and as I've gotten to know Mike, I I can
Speaker 1: understand why he is incredibly capable and he did exactly
Speaker 1: what he should have on the ground. And unfortunately, you know,
Speaker 1: that is not how it was painted. It was painted
Speaker 1: that everything he did, he was made to look like
Speaker 1: a fumbling idiot. But I doubt most men in that
Speaker 1: position would have performed as well as he did. Now
Speaker 1: is he still in SF? I know in the book
Speaker 1: you mentioned later on he was an instructor at the school.
Speaker 1: But is he still in Yes, Yes, that's good. I'm
Speaker 1: glad to hear that. You know, they should have decorated
Speaker 1: a lot of the guys on that team for what transpired.
Speaker 1: And you know, um, but how do you highly decorate
Speaker 1: a team that you're trying to blame, highly decorated team
Speaker 1: that's trying to be painted as fools as as cowboys
Speaker 1: and gone road. But yeah, as soon as that storyline
Speaker 1: came out, I I know, speaking for a lot of
Speaker 1: former SF guys, we immediately discounted that that that stuff
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. It only happens in the movies, you know.
Speaker 1: But if you could think of something that you know,
Speaker 1: for the average person, maybe not even a military family member,
Speaker 1: military type person take away from this book, what do
Speaker 1: you think of that would be? Um? You know, I
Speaker 1: wrote something down because I thought it was important for
Speaker 1: those who you know, weren't in the military community to
Speaker 1: here let me find it. Um, well, yeah, just that
Speaker 1: they would understand more clearly what freedom has cost those
Speaker 1: of us who you know, all of those you know,
Speaker 1: my husband and the families, um, who have paid the
Speaker 1: ultimate price. But more importantly, that we wouldn't change it,
Speaker 1: you know, because nothing worth having comes without a steep price.
Speaker 1: And um, really, I hope that the readers walk away
Speaker 1: appreciating their freedoms more and hold more love for and
Speaker 1: pride in the men and women who serve our great nation.
Speaker 1: You know, they deserve more respect, absolutely, and the families
Speaker 1: do as well. I know you have two sons that
Speaker 1: are growing up without their dad. How are they doing?
Speaker 1: And you said, you're the ones getting ready to graduate
Speaker 1: high school? And how are the kids doing? They're doing
Speaker 1: really well. Um, like I said, well, Isaac, first of all,
Speaker 1: he's Mr Social, so he has made a million friends.
Speaker 1: We've always got a house full of teenage boys running
Speaker 1: around going crazy. Every neighbor shows up, and you know,
Speaker 1: and he's got himself a golden doodle who sleeps with
Speaker 1: him and follows him around like you know, like like
Speaker 1: their brothers, and so yeah, it's pretty funny. He's a
Speaker 1: trip and he's doing really well. He's in seventh grade
Speaker 1: right now, so um yeah, and he's you know, I've
Speaker 1: been taking the boys skiing at the local mountain and
Speaker 1: you know, they both love it and have picked it
Speaker 1: up and ski really well. So we've been going to
Speaker 1: the top of the mountain and um, trying to talk
Speaker 1: him into snowboarding next year. But we'll see. So um yeah,
Speaker 1: and then you was a military officer, he was. He
Speaker 1: was a marine. Yes. Yeah. Now Ezekiel is he uh
Speaker 1: is he a skier as well? He is? Yeah, so
Speaker 1: he's skiing. He he agreed to let me teach him
Speaker 1: to snowboard next year. So I'm I'm very excited because,
Speaker 1: like I said, I used to instruct, I used to compete,
Speaker 1: So I am all about the snowboarding. I'm like, get me,
Speaker 1: you go through. You know, I want to take him
Speaker 1: through the park. I want to, you know, do all that.
Speaker 1: I mean, who knows, I might kill myself now I
Speaker 1: haven't done in a few years, but you know, I
Speaker 1: used to do all the big jumps and stuff. So
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about that. But he is fourteen, and
Speaker 1: he is, you know, swimming on the swim team. Just
Speaker 1: lettered um this yesterday and then um, he's playing water
Speaker 1: polo and streets at school. So he's just he's doing
Speaker 1: really well. But we can look for him to be
Speaker 1: an SF guy somewhere down the road. Yeah, definitely, that's
Speaker 1: all he wants. There. You go like I told you earlier.
Speaker 1: I can't think of a bit of way for a
Speaker 1: kid to grow up. You get to see the world,
Speaker 1: you get to experience some things, maybe not all of
Speaker 1: them pleasant, but it shows you a lot of what's
Speaker 1: going on in the world, and it makes you really appreciate,
Speaker 1: you know, the things that we do have. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: absolutely true. They're definitely some of the most independent and
Speaker 1: strong kids I know, and they care a lot for others.
Speaker 1: So it's good. Well, Michelle, thank you. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: you taking the time with us this afternoon. We uh,
Speaker 1: we'd loved having you on and talking about it, and
Speaker 1: we encourage all of our readers out there are listeners
Speaker 1: to the podcast to down you know, you can check
Speaker 1: out Michelle's book Sacrifice. You can download a copy of
Speaker 1: it or by hard hard copy of it. Where can
Speaker 1: they find an Amazon, I'm sure, Oh yeah, and pretty
Speaker 1: much anywhere bookstore books sell, you know, books are sold.
Speaker 1: So yeah, Well, we appreciate you sending us an advanced
Speaker 1: copy of that. It was it was very well written,
Speaker 1: as I told you earlier, but at times it was
Speaker 1: also I could say it was maddening at times reading
Speaker 1: pat your experiences and it was hard enough for what
Speaker 1: you and the other families had to go through, not
Speaker 1: to the least of which to being lied to by
Speaker 1: the chain of command. And again we encourage all of
Speaker 1: our listeners to get out there and by the book
Speaker 1: and definitely check it out. Well, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for reading it and having me on. It was our
Speaker 1: pleasure and hopefully, Um, are you gonna write another book eventually?
Speaker 1: Is this going to be? I would love to. It
Speaker 1: turns out I really like to write. That's awesome, even
Speaker 1: on the bad days. Yeah, well that's sometimes that's when
Speaker 1: you get the most done. That's true. Well, thanks again
Speaker 1: for taking the time with us. Um, we really appreciated
Speaker 1: and yeah, well you're the door was always open for
Speaker 1: you here, especially if you write another book. Will be
Speaker 1: glad to uh you know, review it and have you
Speaker 1: back on for another podcast. Wonderful, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thanks again you've been listening to self red Lydia m