Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and I'm welcome to
Speaker 1: Stefan Never told You Protection of I Heart Radio, and
Speaker 1: welcome to another segment of fictional women around the world
Speaker 1: are segment sub segment, as I like to call it.
Speaker 1: For today's episode, since Falcon in the Winter Soldier just
Speaker 1: finished or kind of just finished, and the theories are rampant,
Speaker 1: we're gonna do a primer on Sharon Carter with no
Speaker 1: spoilers UM or at least probably not, and we are
Speaker 1: focusing mainly on the m c U, the Marvel Cinematic
Speaker 1: Universalist Comics UM and I did start working on this
Speaker 1: before the finale. I have now seen the finale, but
Speaker 1: it's just it's kind of funny because I was gonna
Speaker 1: I was trying to like catch the wave because everyone
Speaker 1: was speculating about the show at the time, but then
Speaker 1: we had to postpone it because I had to talk
Speaker 1: about Star Wars because of Star Wars Day, so it
Speaker 1: got too late a month and now I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I've kind of missed the wave, and we're also trying
Speaker 1: not to spoil people. So it's an interesting intersection that
Speaker 1: we're at right now. Right, yes, but people are still
Speaker 1: they're still talking about it. They still got theories. And
Speaker 1: as we've said before, the Marvel universe and multivers can
Speaker 1: get real wacky, and every character has multiple red coons
Speaker 1: or reincarnations by different creators or almost every character, And yeah,
Speaker 1: we're going to stick to the movies and shows for
Speaker 1: this particular episode. So in the m c U, Sharon
Speaker 1: Carter is played by Emily Van Camp and she was
Speaker 1: first introduced in Captain America The Winter Soldier. She was
Speaker 1: a nurse lawyer, and then she reappeared in Civil War
Speaker 1: and is on the Disney Plus show Falcon and The
Speaker 1: Winter Soldier. She is the great niece of Peggy Carter,
Speaker 1: a founder and creator of Shield, something she kept hidden
Speaker 1: because she felt the pressure of her living up to
Speaker 1: her was too high. She also looked up to her
Speaker 1: aunt Peggy and wanted to be like her from a
Speaker 1: young age. Yes, she tells the story of getting her
Speaker 1: first thigh holster despite her mother's protest. Carter joined Shield
Speaker 1: due to the encouragement of her great aunt. Yes, and
Speaker 1: during the Winter Soldier movie she worked undercover under Nick
Speaker 1: Fury's direction, Yes, as the nurse to keep an eye
Speaker 1: on Steve Rogers. Captain America. She says, like for protection,
Speaker 1: but I also felt like I was sort of like
Speaker 1: spying because they weren't really sure what was up. There
Speaker 1: a lot of scepterfuge in that movie. When Shield was
Speaker 1: proven to be infiltrated by Hydra, she stuck by Captain
Speaker 1: America and Shield loyal to Fury and Steve Rogers and
Speaker 1: her actions helped save millions of lives. And she did
Speaker 1: flirt a lot with Steve in this movie, and Steve
Speaker 1: asked her out, which she did turn down. Steve did
Speaker 1: not know she was related to Peggy, his first love. However,
Speaker 1: she did know that Aunt Peggy at the very least
Speaker 1: was like way to this guy at one point. And yes,
Speaker 1: they did kiss in Civil War, So now I when
Speaker 1: your soldier the next one they did and uh yeah,
Speaker 1: she says something like you waited long enough or took
Speaker 1: you long enough, something like that. And people have talked
Speaker 1: about this a lot. They've talked a lot about this moment,
Speaker 1: sometimes saying it was you desire for a family life.
Speaker 1: Because he didn't know about time traveled in He didn't
Speaker 1: know it was a chance that he could go back
Speaker 1: in time. Also, does that make him her great uncle,
Speaker 1: her uncle. Well, I think it doesn't base on how
Speaker 1: time travel works in these movies makes no sense. I
Speaker 1: know it doesn't make sense, but I think that I
Speaker 1: don't like it. It's true, it's true. I could be
Speaker 1: absolutely wrong. I just know that the way they did
Speaker 1: time travel in these movies is different in the way
Speaker 1: most every other movie I've seen this time travel. And yeah,
Speaker 1: so he didn't know about time travel when they kissed.
Speaker 1: Sharon's adoration for Steve, that she'd grown up with hearing
Speaker 1: about him from her aunt Peggy, that maybe she'd kind
Speaker 1: of like absorbed that, which is also kind of messed up.
Speaker 1: And in many ways she was similar to Peggy. I
Speaker 1: can't imagine Peggy would approve. I'm just saying, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I do think this is a moment that a
Speaker 1: lot of people have tried to forget has happened, but
Speaker 1: they also find about it a lot, which we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about more. Yeah, that it is odd when
Speaker 1: you consider all of the different aspects going on. And
Speaker 1: I don't know how old she's supposed to be or
Speaker 1: how old Emily band Camp is, but it feels like
Speaker 1: there's an age. I mean, there's obviously the age, like
Speaker 1: he's old at this point. He is literally senior citizen
Speaker 1: at this point. Yeah, he spent a lot of that
Speaker 1: in ice though. Still no, I'm with you. I'm just saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: so him. We Van Camp said about it, quote you
Speaker 1: sort of trust and hope that it all makes sense
Speaker 1: in the end. I did have a few moments where
Speaker 1: I wondered, what a we're going too far with this?
Speaker 1: Should this be more of an amicable, friendly moment? I
Speaker 1: don't really know. I don't think any of us really knew.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's anyone's fault that it didn't totally
Speaker 1: work in terms of the story. I don't think anyone
Speaker 1: knew where that was headed or what we were going
Speaker 1: to do with the moment. It was a sweet moment
Speaker 1: as it was. I guess I saw a lot of articles.
Speaker 1: I don't want to say this is backhanded compliment, because
Speaker 1: that's not really the right term. But we're like, she's
Speaker 1: handled it really well. She's handled like when people ask
Speaker 1: her about it, she's handled like very diplomatically, I guess,
Speaker 1: And certainly we've read stories and I'm struggling to think
Speaker 1: of an example right now, but I know I've read
Speaker 1: stories of like a vampire who like loves it's usually
Speaker 1: male vampire loves this woman she ages in guys because
Speaker 1: she's mortal, and it falls in love with her daughter,
Speaker 1: and it is weird, but it also kind of makes sense.
Speaker 1: But they're also monsters, so they typically thought of as
Speaker 1: monsters and or stealing youth. So there's a whole level
Speaker 1: of like. Because the other thing I just thought about,
Speaker 1: honestly was hook that's the same. I don't have you
Speaker 1: ever seen yea Moira? So Wendy and Peter Pan they
Speaker 1: were together. She grows old and Peter Pan comes to
Speaker 1: get her, finds the daughter, not the granddaughter, it's the granddaughter,
Speaker 1: her granddaughter, and falls in love with her and decides
Speaker 1: to stay for her. But I always thought that was
Speaker 1: creepy too. I think it's hard to reconcile. I feel
Speaker 1: like there's a part of me that gets it because
Speaker 1: on one level it does make sense, not not necessarily,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like I feel like sometimes you can
Speaker 1: feel an attraction for someone that is not romantic, but
Speaker 1: you feel it because it reminds you of something sentimental, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you might confuse it for something that it's not,
Speaker 1: and it still feels weird, but I don't know. I
Speaker 1: guess I can. It makes sense to be on some
Speaker 1: level right that there would be something you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it's to me, it's kind of how they try.
Speaker 1: M c U was like, oh, look see they're romance.
Speaker 1: You just seem to force and unnecessary. Yeah, that's how
Speaker 1: I felt to me. It felt like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: we've got to get some romance in here. There's not
Speaker 1: that many ladies to choose from. We've really already Black
Speaker 1: Widows got her own thing and she was like our
Speaker 1: one lady, So here's this one. She happens to be
Speaker 1: related to that other lady well that you loved, but
Speaker 1: he that is That is how it felt to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean that's also a problem that we talked
Speaker 1: about when we did our one division Spoiled episode that
Speaker 1: I think the m c U has not necessarily their
Speaker 1: fault because there is a lot going on, a lot
Speaker 1: of storylines, but that means that sometimes it's suddenly like, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: Wanda and Vision are in love, and we have not
Speaker 1: done any thing but just tell you that they're in love.
Speaker 1: There's no one build up or anything. It's just like
Speaker 1: together yes, exactly. I think the romance in general and
Speaker 1: these movies kind of suffers from that issue, all right,
Speaker 1: But back to the kind of plot. When Shield was dissolved,
Speaker 1: Sharon joined the CIA, was instrumental and helping Cap in
Speaker 1: his search for Bucky after he was accused of bombing
Speaker 1: the Vienna International Center, even returning the equipment to the
Speaker 1: on the run at Captain America and its companions during
Speaker 1: the Avengers Civil War, forcing her to go on the
Speaker 1: run as well, and earning her the label enemy of State.
Speaker 1: This is also when Yeah said kiss with Captain America happened.
Speaker 1: She said late, that's what it was. She said, damn
Speaker 1: right when he said that was a little late. H Yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly so. And it's at this point Steve didn't know
Speaker 1: she was related to Peggy. She who Peggy had died
Speaker 1: earlier in the movie, spoke at the funeral and kind
Speaker 1: of giving Steve a talk during it. Yes, and I
Speaker 1: like that speech, but it always reminds me of the
Speaker 1: joke like make like a tree. You can get out
Speaker 1: of here and make like a tree and leave, because
Speaker 1: she's like make like a tree and plant, don't move,
Speaker 1: say you move. But I always think theyk a tree
Speaker 1: and it's the opposite of what she was going for.
Speaker 1: So this is how she ended up in magrapor and
Speaker 1: Falcon and the Winter Soldier. There's no extradition there. She
Speaker 1: was believed to have died in the snap, which worked
Speaker 1: in her favor, but it was hard on her. She
Speaker 1: couldn't contact her family or friends. She harbor's anger that
Speaker 1: the Avengers didn't help her. Definitely more outwardly cynical than
Speaker 1: we last saw her. She calls the whole hero thing
Speaker 1: a joke. She had to work in the black market
Speaker 1: to make a living, though she did say I thought
Speaker 1: if I had to hustle, might as well enjoy the
Speaker 1: life of a real hustler. Eventually, Sam Wilson, Captain America,
Speaker 1: got her a pardon for her help. We'll stop there.
Speaker 1: Spoiler Wise that spoiler, Yeah, it's a little spoiler, but
Speaker 1: no a spoiler. So she's very smart adapt do strategic
Speaker 1: tactical quick on her fate. Obviously bilingual all spies needed
Speaker 1: this right ambities and excels in subterfuge and combat and
Speaker 1: weapons training. Yeah, somehow she was able to go through
Speaker 1: that whole scene fighting. She was pretty bad. Later we
Speaker 1: see she is good at reading people and being manipulative
Speaker 1: and also just real lethal. She's very loyal up and
Speaker 1: to a point, and her time on the run has
Speaker 1: definitely hardened her. Yeah. In general, I will say her
Speaker 1: storylines have been controversial. People have a lot of thoughts,
Speaker 1: as they do about Marvel stuff. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: see where this goes. But yeah, people often do have
Speaker 1: these really start opinions in this fandom and about women
Speaker 1: in this fandom, and especially women going for what they want. Which, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not signing off on the story necessarily or saying
Speaker 1: there wasn't there weren't issues in conversation to have, but
Speaker 1: you can't Deny actually goes after what she wants. Um. Yeah, Um,
Speaker 1: I think I think they have come to the point
Speaker 1: that at least they're making her a lot more interesting. Yes,
Speaker 1: But when asked about this controversy, the writer on The
Speaker 1: Falcon and the Winter Soldiers said, quote, she'd been shut
Speaker 1: out by all the intelligence agencies, so that when she
Speaker 1: tried to make her overtures to come back, they tried
Speaker 1: to grab her and arrest her. So they forced her
Speaker 1: into being a criminal. She was discarded, She was traded
Speaker 1: by the institutions that made her, which was a big
Speaker 1: theme in that Hole show. Right. Yeah, and I including Steve,
Speaker 1: including the past Captain America for someone like her already
Speaker 1: had inferiority issues around her Aunt Peggy. That had to
Speaker 1: really suck. And that is really pretty terrible that he
Speaker 1: liked kissed her and then used her and then he
Speaker 1: went from his bros, got them all out, but sure
Speaker 1: didn't help her. Yeah, which again there's so many storylines
Speaker 1: in these. I get that, you know, sometimes it's not
Speaker 1: gonna I'll work out because she's not avenger, but it does.
Speaker 1: It's like one of your few women somebody if it
Speaker 1: makes her feel like, yeah, just a tool that they
Speaker 1: used to have romance. And then she's gone, right, which
Speaker 1: is pretty terrible. And I think that she might maybe
Speaker 1: she's a burnt Cinnamon role. She's not quite, but she's close.
Speaker 1: She's got a similar like she had. She had a
Speaker 1: lot more optimism and kind of this like really loyalty
Speaker 1: shining through. And then and last we saw her, it's
Speaker 1: much more cynical then previously. Yes, she's also really quick
Speaker 1: to say let's kill people, So that's true at the beginning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is true, and that's something that's always like the
Speaker 1: superhero movies where you're left wondering like, are you knocking
Speaker 1: out all these people or are they did right? Is this?
Speaker 1: Are you leaving dead bodies all up in your way?
Speaker 1: I mean it's kind of seem like it. I know,
Speaker 1: they usually with Captain America, kind of went out of
Speaker 1: the way to be like, he's not killing people. You know,
Speaker 1: he probably would have been if you're not going by
Speaker 1: movie physics. But and that's also why I think the
Speaker 1: trope of aliens or robots and villains is so popular,
Speaker 1: because we don't feel as bad usually unless they've really
Speaker 1: made you feel sympathetic toward the aliens, but you don't
Speaker 1: feel as that as as well. Did that superhero just
Speaker 1: murder like hundred people? Right right? You're like, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: wait what? Well that was the big thing with what's
Speaker 1: his name, John Walker? The kind of answer that in
Speaker 1: America where he killed somebody very violently just because he
Speaker 1: was angry, right exactly, there were a lot of issues,
Speaker 1: right he went to the dark side. Well, we shall
Speaker 1: see what happens, and perhaps we'll revisit this topic in
Speaker 1: the future. In the meantime, if you have any suggestions
Speaker 1: for fictional women around the world. Are women around the world.
Speaker 1: You can email us or emails Stuff Media mom Stuff,
Speaker 1: I Hurt Me You dot com. You can find us
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram at
Speaker 1: stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as always to our
Speaker 1: super producer Christina, Thank you, and thanks to you for
Speaker 1: listening Stuff I Ever Told You the production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcast from my Heart Radio, visit
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