Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bedel cast. Bonjeur, Okay,
Speaker 1: that was gonna be my one as well, Yeah, Jael, Kathleen.
Speaker 1: And that's the extent of the French that I know.
Speaker 1: I know. I was in French club in third grade
Speaker 1: and I learned how to count to ten, and then
Speaker 1: that's about it. I don't know if I dare not
Speaker 1: go further. Um so that we're fluent in French, as
Speaker 1: you can tell, extremely fluent. Welcome to the Beachdel Cast.
Speaker 1: My name is, My name is uh Kathleen, Jemmapel, Jamie Loff.
Speaker 1: Know what the French pronunciation would be, Kaitly. We should
Speaker 1: paint each other. I mean this movie, I mean, this
Speaker 1: joke has been made before, I'm sure, but this movie
Speaker 1: really gives new meaning to the phrase draw me like
Speaker 1: one of your French girls. Wow, there it is there,
Speaker 1: it is. This is our podcast though, it's the Bechtel Cast,
Speaker 1: and this is a today recovering a movie that has
Speaker 1: been requested. I want to say, conservatively five million times
Speaker 1: everyone at least on this episode and here it is
Speaker 1: here it finally is everybody. This is our podcast in
Speaker 1: which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
Speaker 1: the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point, that,
Speaker 1: of course, being a media metric created by queer cartoonist
Speaker 1: Alison Bechtel. This is one of those movies where the
Speaker 1: origins of the Bechtel test really come into play because
Speaker 1: perhaps a little known fact, although we've mentioned it many
Speaker 1: times on the pod Test in the past, is that
Speaker 1: the context in which the Bechtel Test happens in Alison
Speaker 1: Bechtel's Dikes to Watch Out For that was published in
Speaker 1: is that her characters are basically looking at movies to
Speaker 1: see if women ever talked to each other about something
Speaker 1: other than a man, because if they don't, the characters
Speaker 1: in the comic can ship the characters in the movie
Speaker 1: that they're watching, ship them together and pretend that they
Speaker 1: are queer women in love. So the context of the
Speaker 1: comic makes it all the better. If you haven't read
Speaker 1: I I like just recently read through like the whole
Speaker 1: collection of Dikes to Watch Out For and it's it's
Speaker 1: so good. It's so good. It's uh, some of the
Speaker 1: best world building in the entire comics planet. And they
Speaker 1: and they're always like the characters in that series are
Speaker 1: always going to movies. They're always giving the hottest take
Speaker 1: that hold up extremely well thirty years later. Nice. Yeah
Speaker 1: hell yeah. So. Our version of the vector test, as
Speaker 1: it's evolved over the years, is that two people of
Speaker 1: any marginalized gender have names speak to each other about
Speaker 1: something other than a man, and ideally their conversation is
Speaker 1: like plot relevant or significant narratively in some way. We're
Speaker 1: not going to have a problem today. Today's start. Today,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be a okay because we're covering Portrait of
Speaker 1: a Lady on Fire. Uh yeah again, it's a movie
Speaker 1: we've gotten an incredible number of requests for and the
Speaker 1: time is now, and we have an incredible guest to
Speaker 1: cover this movie with us. We certainly do. She is
Speaker 1: a comedian, actor, a writer whose work has been featured
Speaker 1: in Reductress, Off mag and Plot Twist. It's Chloe Kunya. Hello,
Speaker 1: welcome here. Yeah, this is exciting. It was very hard
Speaker 1: not to say something during the Yeah, if you if
Speaker 1: you have any French that you'd like to teach us
Speaker 1: any any Yeah. Yeah, I thought about it and I think, um, so,
Speaker 1: I think it would be Kathleen Durrant, all right. You
Speaker 1: just we don't like to just not pronounce letters a lot,
Speaker 1: so that at the end we'd be like no and
Speaker 1: we're not going to do it. And then I think
Speaker 1: it would be Jami Nice. That's better. Yeah, you just
Speaker 1: get a little little natal, little nasal energy in there,
Speaker 1: and you think that's basically French. Yeah, I love it. Bonjem,
Speaker 1: Bje Kleine, Yeah, you got it. You're crushing it already, Bje, bonjour, Chloe. Um, so,
Speaker 1: thank you for being here, Thanks for having me excited
Speaker 1: to chat with you about Portrait of a Lady on Hire.
Speaker 1: What's your your relationship, your history with this film? Yes,
Speaker 1: so so obviously I heard about it because it was
Speaker 1: making huge waves that can um and everybody was like
Speaker 1: it's gay and it's great. Um So I was excited
Speaker 1: about it. But interestingly enough, I had seen another of
Speaker 1: the same director's movies before and I didn't like that one,
Speaker 1: so I didn't like the one i'd seen, so I
Speaker 1: was kind of like, okay, well, just because I didn't
Speaker 1: like that one. Um, doesn't mean that I won't like
Speaker 1: this one, And so I went to see it in theaters. Um.
Speaker 1: This was I know. We were when we were emailing,
Speaker 1: we were talking about, oh, this may have been one
Speaker 1: of the last for me. I think this was the
Speaker 1: before last movie I saw in theaters. Um with at
Speaker 1: the time my girlfriend. We have since split up. Um,
Speaker 1: so very fascinating to watch the movie again with that,
Speaker 1: With that perspective, I'm like, oh, no, it's fine and true. Um,
Speaker 1: your women fashion, we're friends. Um, so you know we're
Speaker 1: staying friends because what are you gonna do? Um. But
Speaker 1: but it was interesting to watch it again with that
Speaker 1: context because I watched it again last night. Um and
Speaker 1: uh yeah, so I remember the first time I watched it.
Speaker 1: I really loved it. It was, you know, very touching,
Speaker 1: good movie that I enjoyed quite a lot. And it
Speaker 1: was fun to watch it again, except again, slightly different
Speaker 1: personal context for me as I watched it. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's basically the long and the short of my relationship
Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, very nice, Jamie, what about you? I'm
Speaker 1: sorry me. My My experience of this movie is it
Speaker 1: was my last movie I saw in the before times.
Speaker 1: I saw it, I think like the week before shutdowns.
Speaker 1: I saw it in an A m C. I got
Speaker 1: some of that like freaky macaroni they have at the
Speaker 1: A m C. So I was like, it was like
Speaker 1: a Tuesday night. It was very I no regrets. I'm glad.
Speaker 1: I'm glad I did it. I went alone on a
Speaker 1: Tuesday night, cried my eyes out ate a bowl of
Speaker 1: disgusting macaroni. I didn't even know they had macaroni. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: Nancy's are really stepping it up. And well, I mean
Speaker 1: maybe not in equality, but they're maybe not in the
Speaker 1: macaroni department, but they have like flatbreads and they have
Speaker 1: like gourmet sandwiches. Now, I mean in the before time,
Speaker 1: maybe not that. Maybe they were really I don't know
Speaker 1: what they were going for, but it was interesting, you know.
Speaker 1: I and I liked the movie when I first saw it.
Speaker 1: I do remember as I was leaving, being like, I
Speaker 1: wish the women in this movie walked a little faster.
Speaker 1: It was everyone's walking so slow. The whole movie fast
Speaker 1: walking hadn't been invented yet. Oh yeah, very deliberate time
Speaker 1: because everyone is walking like three steps an hour. I mean,
Speaker 1: they've got there. They're wearing such like heavy there's so
Speaker 1: many layers of fabric. I mean, can you imagine trying
Speaker 1: to walk with all of those? Me and twenty twenty
Speaker 1: with my Macaroni, I was like, we gotta speed it up, ladies,
Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta get to where we're going. But
Speaker 1: I really liked the movie, and it was felt a
Speaker 1: little long the first time I saw it, but it
Speaker 1: was it was cool to watch back for this show.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's absolutely like ideal for our show.
Speaker 1: So it was it was fun to watch with my
Speaker 1: Bettel goggles on, certainly what about You. I also saw
Speaker 1: it in theaters. It got a wide US release, I
Speaker 1: think February fourteen, So it's like Valentine's Day. Everyone's feeling romantic.
Speaker 1: Everyone's horned up, you know, you go to see this
Speaker 1: romantic movie. I think I saw it. I saw it
Speaker 1: with JT in Boston because we were I think the
Speaker 1: two both of us were in Boston at that time
Speaker 1: because we did a show. Yeah, so I saw it,
Speaker 1: and I remember thinking, this is a beautifully shot movie
Speaker 1: that is touching and is a half hour longer than
Speaker 1: it needs to be, So I'll come out and say
Speaker 1: I think this movie is boring. It's there's there's always
Speaker 1: one person that's like, it's it's boring. So I understand.
Speaker 1: I think it has everything to do with the editing.
Speaker 1: There's so many shots that just go on way longer
Speaker 1: than they and I'm like, I don't know, I'm like
Speaker 1: a spoiled like American movie. Everything's quick and snappy, and
Speaker 1: the editing is tight, and I'm just like used to
Speaker 1: that type of movies. So I and I'm also just
Speaker 1: a very impatient person. So I'm like, why is this
Speaker 1: shot twenty seconds when it could have been ten? You know?
Speaker 1: So they're lingering so much, it's it's into me. There's
Speaker 1: so much looking. I don't I don't mind the looking,
Speaker 1: but they should walk faster. They should look faster, and
Speaker 1: they should walk faster, you know, at least one of
Speaker 1: them one or the other, if not both. Um. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: I I mean, I think it's a beautifully crafted movie.
Speaker 1: I teach it in my screenwriting classes, like it's especially
Speaker 1: to use it as an example of like a very
Speaker 1: character driven sort of slice of life narrative. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I was, I was like, this could be shorter. Anyway, Um,
Speaker 1: should we should we just dive into the recap and
Speaker 1: then go from there. Let's swim right in? Can we swim?
Speaker 1: I don't know yet? Don't we go? I love when dialogue,
Speaker 1: especially in a movie like this, where you're just like
Speaker 1: so sucked into it, where it's like, oh, everything is
Speaker 1: a metaphor everything everything. I noted there are so many
Speaker 1: times where they're talking about painting, But are they talking
Speaker 1: about painting or sex? Return your gaze? Are you comfortable right?
Speaker 1: I'm uncomfortable now, but in a pleasant way. Very horny.
Speaker 1: It's so horny. It's you know, it's our people. The
Speaker 1: French people were very horny people. What can I say?
Speaker 1: It's part of our thing. Okay, So we're in France.
Speaker 1: I believe it is the eighteenth century. It's the seventeen hundreds,
Speaker 1: question mark late eighteenth century? Is this post French Revolution?
Speaker 1: Do we know? Oh, it's gotta be yeah, definitely, I
Speaker 1: think I believe, Like, oh, no, I don't know anything.
Speaker 1: I realized I don't know exactly what time it is either.
Speaker 1: I probably should have looked that up, but I assumed
Speaker 1: it was like eighteen twenties, maybe because is because of
Speaker 1: the art and like because it's before the Impressionists. I
Speaker 1: was also a art history minor, so I didn't even
Speaker 1: mention that before. Yeah, I know a little bit about
Speaker 1: art as well, but I assumed it was like beginning
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. But I don't know. I could be wrong.
Speaker 1: It's saying end of the eighteenth century and I just
Speaker 1: bravely googled it. And the French Revolution was at the
Speaker 1: end of the eighteen century, so maybe it's during we
Speaker 1: I don't know where to seventeen ninety nine, okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the movie doesn't make it clear what year the movie
Speaker 1: is taking place in, so yeah, that's confusing. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: I I wonder. I'm sure that Selei and Siama like knows,
Speaker 1: but I am so ignorant of so much history that
Speaker 1: I was like old dresses. Okay, Okay, I get it,
Speaker 1: I get it right exactly. Okay. So then we open
Speaker 1: on Marianne. I'm just maybe not going to try to
Speaker 1: do French, okay, Okay, great, And she is played by
Speaker 1: and I will also need help with the actor's name. Yeah,
Speaker 1: is it know? Is that who that is trying to remember? Now?
Speaker 1: I should name me Marlan um knowing me knowing me,
Speaker 1: knowing me, Marlan, is that right? Yeah? I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: that's perfect. Actually it's great. Wow, we're learning. Um. So
Speaker 1: she is teaching art to girls at a school. One
Speaker 1: of her students asks about a painting something that marian
Speaker 1: had painted a long time ago, entitled Portrait of a
Speaker 1: Lady on Fire, and we're like, that's the name of
Speaker 1: the movie. I this is like baby getting ahead of
Speaker 1: ourselves a little bit. But we now that I know that.
Speaker 1: Like Celine Siama said in an interview with Vox with
Speaker 1: Emily vander Wert that she was really influenced by Titanic
Speaker 1: when making this movie. This framing device, You're like, wait,
Speaker 1: a second and intimate portrait that flashes to the past.
Speaker 1: I know this setup. We're just missing a necklace and
Speaker 1: and telling us how many years it's been, because that's
Speaker 1: a really important How many years has it been, Marianne,
Speaker 1: it's not definitely less than eighty four years? But or
Speaker 1: she looks great. She is eighty four years older and
Speaker 1: looks the exact same. Um. But anyway, so attention is
Speaker 1: called to a portrait of a lady on fire and
Speaker 1: it seems to stir up some intense memories and emotions
Speaker 1: for Marianne. Then we cut back to her arriving at
Speaker 1: a large estate on a remote island off the coast
Speaker 1: of mainland France. She has been commissioned by the lady
Speaker 1: of the house to paint a portrait of her daughter Eloise,
Speaker 1: to be sent to a nobleman from Milan who Eloise
Speaker 1: will soon be married to. Marian is greeted by a maid, Sophie,
Speaker 1: who tells her that Eloise is younger sister who was
Speaker 1: set to Mary I think the same Milanese nobleman she
Speaker 1: recently died, and that Eloise has returned after being at
Speaker 1: a convent for several years, so she now is being
Speaker 1: kind of set up to marry this same man. We
Speaker 1: also learn that Eloise does not know that marian is
Speaker 1: there to paint her portrait. She thinks marian is there
Speaker 1: to be her companion to go on walks very slow
Speaker 1: Slois companion. This is so like aristocracy, like gobbledcock. To me,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, yeah, you're gonna hire someone and
Speaker 1: they have to like go in a boat so that
Speaker 1: they can go on a really slow walk with you.
Speaker 1: As a career, You're like, are you talking about honestly,
Speaker 1: sign me up. Sounds like a good deal. Like they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's this rich lady. She's a little sad, she's a
Speaker 1: little brooding, and she just needs to want you to
Speaker 1: like go across the country to walk with her, maybe
Speaker 1: fall in love with her too. I don't know, you
Speaker 1: don't up to you. Whatever happens, maybe a torret affair,
Speaker 1: we'll see how we feel. A couple of couple of
Speaker 1: horny sketches. Um you want to try. Yeah. So, because
Speaker 1: Eloise doesn't know that she's being painted, it means that
Speaker 1: Marian will have to kind of study her and paint
Speaker 1: her in secret without being able to look at Eloise.
Speaker 1: Well she's painting. And the reason for all of this
Speaker 1: is because Eloise refuses this impending marriage, so she refuses
Speaker 1: to pose for any painting. Then Marian meets Eloise, they
Speaker 1: go on their first slow walk, although that one fast.
Speaker 1: They're running at first, they do rush printing. It starts,
Speaker 1: it's a it's definitely they get your hopes up at
Speaker 1: the beginning. I was like, oh, they're going to speed
Speaker 1: it up, but then it just gets slower and slower
Speaker 1: and slower. Maybe they just retired the rest of the
Speaker 1: movie because they like, that was our one exercise for
Speaker 1: the two weeks, right, because the whole movie is in
Speaker 1: like two weeks. Yeah, it's it's pretty short, fat. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They go on their first walk. She's studying Eloise. She
Speaker 1: starts to like sketch and paint her. They continue to
Speaker 1: go on walks. They get to know each other a
Speaker 1: little bit. They chat about their pasts and futures. They
Speaker 1: seem to maybe be vibing and it's so wild to see.
Speaker 1: This was like, it seems like we all saw this
Speaker 1: movie shortly before. We were all wearing masks all the time,
Speaker 1: and I was like, well, the scene with it, like
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they're wearing masks and one of
Speaker 1: them is wearing it incorrectly because you can see her. No,
Speaker 1: I was like, Marianne under that mask. They are socially
Speaker 1: distancing though they're they're pretty far apart until they're not
Speaker 1: until they're not until they're kissing. Yeah, they're horny distancing.
Speaker 1: And then at one point Marianne plays Eloise on I
Speaker 1: think the harpsichord, Is that what that instrument is? And
Speaker 1: then I think what she's playing is Vivaldi's storm? Is
Speaker 1: that the name of that piece. As you can tell,
Speaker 1: I'm extremely uncultured and I know nothing. Uh yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: literally reading from Wikipedia. It's the Presto from Summer from
Speaker 1: Vivaldi's Four Seasons. Coo coo coo cool. It sounds smart
Speaker 1: when we say it, but you you'll hear it and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh that, yeah, I know that, right, Okay.
Speaker 1: So then Marian completes the portrait and wants to show
Speaker 1: Eloise and tell her the truth about why she's there,
Speaker 1: which she does, and Eloise feels betrayed, and then when
Speaker 1: she sees the painting, she's like, is this how you
Speaker 1: see me? So then Marian destroys it and begins painting
Speaker 1: another portrait, this time with Eloise agreeing to pose for her.
Speaker 1: Then Sophie the maid reveals that she is gregnant with
Speaker 1: a greg and they help her try to administer like
Speaker 1: an at home abortion um abortion montage. There's honestly, it's like,
Speaker 1: m he's like a nice time. There's running there, there's
Speaker 1: Sophie's run on the beach. Sophie knows how to keep
Speaker 1: it moving. She's got things to do, she's busy, you know, totally. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Marian and Eloise talk about love. Marianne keeps working on
Speaker 1: the portrait. They continue to vibe. They all read the
Speaker 1: Greek myths of Orpheus and another name I cannot Euridicity. Cool.
Speaker 1: They read that together, then they take Sophie too. Would
Speaker 1: this be like a midwife? I don't know what this
Speaker 1: lady's job is. Yeah, I think that the I don't
Speaker 1: know it's it's it's local female doctor, the local abortionist.
Speaker 1: I think it's a midwife because then later there's also
Speaker 1: a baby, which implies that she helped deliver the baby, right,
Speaker 1: I mean right right? Oh my god. When Sophie has
Speaker 1: to get an abortion while a baby is live, really
Speaker 1: looking at her, I was like cruel and unusual. Can
Speaker 1: we get the babies out of the room. I loved
Speaker 1: that because there's so many movies where like someone's about
Speaker 1: to go get an abortion, but they're like, oh no,
Speaker 1: I just remembered what a baby looks like. I can't
Speaker 1: have an abortion after all. Okay, the whole plot of Juno,
Speaker 1: so it was. I love that she saw a baby
Speaker 1: and was still like, no, give me an abortion because
Speaker 1: I don't want to have a child. And it wasn't
Speaker 1: like she was like out of a dislike of the baby.
Speaker 1: She was like, hi, baby, the baby was like comforting
Speaker 1: her almost Yeah, the baby was like Google, Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: I actually really I liked it too because, um, for
Speaker 1: the reason that Caitlin gave, but also because it really
Speaker 1: further brought together like, hey, abortions aren't evil, Like this
Speaker 1: person also delivers babies. Sometimes you need to deliver a baby,
Speaker 1: and sometimes you need to just get rid of it. Um.
Speaker 1: And it sounds really bad when I put it that way,
Speaker 1: but but I really like that it's true. The movie
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, listen, this is just a normal thing,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't mean like he said, doesn't mean she
Speaker 1: hates babies. In fact, the baby was really cute and
Speaker 1: was just I liked. I liked it thematically, I guess
Speaker 1: just putting myself in her shoes. I just don't want
Speaker 1: a baby in the room while I'm getting an abortion.
Speaker 1: That's fair, Yeah, just for privacy purposes. Really, probably they
Speaker 1: want to get an abortion, like in the middle of
Speaker 1: a shack, Like there's a lot. It doesn't seem the
Speaker 1: most clean place, not very sterile, but it's that whole
Speaker 1: sequences is really interesting. Yeah, I agree, there's a lot
Speaker 1: to talk about their Yeah. Oh, so they take Sophie
Speaker 1: to the midwife to see if she's still pregnant, which
Speaker 1: she is, so she has to go back a few
Speaker 1: days later. But in the meantime, there's like a coven
Speaker 1: of him in who gather around a fire and sing
Speaker 1: and chant and it's like this beautiful, haunting, chanting melody,
Speaker 1: during which Eloise's dress briefly catches fire and it's the
Speaker 1: same image as the portrait of the lady on fire
Speaker 1: that we saw at the beginning. Then they returned to
Speaker 1: the estate and Marian and Eloise kiss, but then Eloise
Speaker 1: runs away and she's like, ah gay panics the last
Speaker 1: thirty seconds she's like, actually I'm fine. Yeah, because later
Speaker 1: that night they embrace again, they kiss, they presumably have sex,
Speaker 1: but the movie cuts away to the next morning, but
Speaker 1: they are like nude in bed together. Then they take
Speaker 1: Sophie to get her abortion, and later that night Marian
Speaker 1: paints her like a recreation of her getting the abortion.
Speaker 1: Marian and Eloise have sex again off screen. They also
Speaker 1: do drugs together. I don't know if that's supposed to
Speaker 1: be weed or what exactly. I don't know. It seems
Speaker 1: like they got too high for it to be weed.
Speaker 1: But it was also like administered via armpit, which is strange,
Speaker 1: like which if it was weed, you would think that,
Speaker 1: like because we see Marian with like smoking tobacco out
Speaker 1: of a pipe, so you think she could smoke it.
Speaker 1: But so, yeah, we don't. Who knows what drug that was?
Speaker 1: It's drug section. I just wrote France, question mark. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know either of the time I've
Speaker 1: done drugs and France were not via armpits. So so
Speaker 1: then the portrait of Eloise is almost finished, which means
Speaker 1: that it's nearly time for her to be sent off
Speaker 1: to Milan to marry. Both women resent this, they argue,
Speaker 1: but then they up and spend one last day together,
Speaker 1: reflecting on memories that they've shared together. Marian draws little pictures,
Speaker 1: one of Eloise for Marian and then one of Marian
Speaker 1: for Eloise, and she does this on page twenty eight
Speaker 1: of a book. Uh The next morning, Eloise's mother has returned,
Speaker 1: and a man is there to collect Eloise and take
Speaker 1: her and the portrait to Milan. Marian and Eloise have
Speaker 1: to say a very like hurried goodbye, and then Marian
Speaker 1: leaves we cut two years later, Marian is at an
Speaker 1: art exhibit where she sees a painting of Eloise with
Speaker 1: a little girl presumably her daughter, where she's holding a
Speaker 1: book with page twenty eight exposed, you know, indicating that
Speaker 1: she still is in love with and still thinks about Marian.
Speaker 1: And then the movie ends with Marian going to a
Speaker 1: concert where the orchestra is playing the same Vivaldi Peace
Speaker 1: and Eloise is there crying, and that's they're like Fantom
Speaker 1: of the Opera style in the box alone lovers, and
Speaker 1: then that's that's the last time Marian ever sees Eloise.
Speaker 1: And then and that's the end of the movie. So
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and we'll come back to
Speaker 1: discuss and we're back, bonjeur, We're back. Where where do
Speaker 1: we want to start? There's there's so much to talk
Speaker 1: about here. Well, um, one thing, just kind of general, um,
Speaker 1: very noticeable thing about this movie is that there are
Speaker 1: almost no men in the movie. It is just many, many,
Speaker 1: well mostly three women. And then other characters that we
Speaker 1: see are also for the most part women, like at
Speaker 1: the Coven and the the Midwife question mark. You only
Speaker 1: see pretty brief glimpses of men at the very beginning
Speaker 1: and at the very end. I saw Selin Siama refer
Speaker 1: to it in an interview as the men appear like
Speaker 1: jump scares in the they do though, when the men
Speaker 1: comeing like oh no, fuck. When there's that man at
Speaker 1: the table at the kitchen table at the end of
Speaker 1: the movie, it is it does you're like, first time
Speaker 1: seeing it, Yeah, You're like, oh God, what's he doing here? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's almost like you're before that moment, you've been
Speaker 1: transported into this kind of fantasy world where there are
Speaker 1: no men and you don't need them and they're not
Speaker 1: which is part of what's so great about the whole
Speaker 1: Midwife thing is it's even in like this medical context,
Speaker 1: there are no men. You know, you just don't need them.
Speaker 1: And you know, my little my lesbian bias is showing
Speaker 1: we don't need men. Actually we don't need them at all. Um.
Speaker 1: But but no, it's true. It is. Really you're like
Speaker 1: they're in this kind of domestic fantasy where it's almost like,
Speaker 1: you know, Sophie and Marianne and Louise are a kind
Speaker 1: of weird family together and that's completely shattered when the
Speaker 1: when the man appears. Um, yeah, it's super interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's like the man arriving signals like the end.
Speaker 1: It's like it means that this like this ideal I
Speaker 1: mean not ideal, but you know, this life that they're
Speaker 1: that they've built over the course of two weeks. But
Speaker 1: it feels like the longer um is going to be
Speaker 1: shattered and disrupted by his presence at all. I want
Speaker 1: to pull a quote from a BuzzFeed News article by
Speaker 1: Shannon Keating. Quote, though men and their dangerous, undeserved powers
Speaker 1: hover ominously just outside the trio's idol trio being Marian,
Speaker 1: Eloise and Sophie, the faceless nameless stranger who got Sophie pregnant.
Speaker 1: The man Eloise is supposed to marry Sight unseen, Marian's
Speaker 1: artist father, from whom she'll inherit the family business and
Speaker 1: under whose name she's sometimes forced to submit paintings. The
Speaker 1: women wield their own powers of generation and destruction. Unquote.
Speaker 1: So it's like all these men are being talked about
Speaker 1: or like they're looming, but we don't have to see them.
Speaker 1: That's true. It's really interesting. Yeah, it's like they still
Speaker 1: do exist under patriarchy, but it's you're you're watching them
Speaker 1: almost like it. It seems like every woman in this
Speaker 1: movie has a male presence that they're trying to navigate
Speaker 1: around or like exist in spite of where I mean.
Speaker 1: It's it's really clear with Sophie's story where she wants
Speaker 1: to get an abortion and she does not want him
Speaker 1: to know or be involved, and we don't know a
Speaker 1: ton about it, but we do know that she's taking
Speaker 1: troll of that situation, and even with even though she's
Speaker 1: barely in the movie, with um Eloise's mother too, like
Speaker 1: she is using this Milanese man to get home, and
Speaker 1: like she's she's you know, giving her daughter away, both
Speaker 1: of her daughters away in an effort to get to
Speaker 1: somewhere where she wants to be, because it's I feel
Speaker 1: like it's implied that she couldn't just go there on
Speaker 1: her own. She has to make this, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of cruel decision against her daughter's wishes because that is
Speaker 1: how she could get to where she wants to be
Speaker 1: and how it seems like she thinks that they'll be
Speaker 1: able to survive. So it's like everyone's playing in this
Speaker 1: game of four D chess, and it's interesting to watch
Speaker 1: them even though it's like I mean a lot of
Speaker 1: the time you don't agree with the decisions they're making,
Speaker 1: but especially the mother, but they're just having to like
Speaker 1: yeah that the men are just like hanging over. I'm
Speaker 1: glad that they're not there. You don't need them physically there,
Speaker 1: but you can still. But it's like it's especially in this,
Speaker 1: you know time in the ye olden France, olden days,
Speaker 1: just like they don't even need to be there to
Speaker 1: be influencing the story, Like it's yeah and some levels.
Speaker 1: One of the most interesting roles there is the Marianne's dad,
Speaker 1: because I actually had almost forgotten that her dad was
Speaker 1: a painter, and that's the whole reason she's a painter
Speaker 1: to begin with, is it was like the family craft,
Speaker 1: you know, that was passed on. I had honestly forgotten
Speaker 1: until the second viewing and I was like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: And then there's that moment at the end where she
Speaker 1: she's like, oh yeah, actually I submitted under my dad's name,
Speaker 1: but it's me surprised, um, which actually I really like that.
Speaker 1: In that moment, the the old guy who compliments it
Speaker 1: isn't like, oh well it was bad, actually he's like,
Speaker 1: oh well, He's just like Okay, that's fine. I like
Speaker 1: it just kind of a nice surprise. You're like, okay,
Speaker 1: random old guy is an ally. Um, that's nice feminist icon,
Speaker 1: that old man old guy at the end. Right. There's
Speaker 1: also that really interesting moment speaking of you know, men
Speaker 1: not being visible. It's just a really interesting moment where
Speaker 1: they're talking about the craft of painting and drawing nudes
Speaker 1: and stuff and it stood, um and uh, Marianne is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm actually not allowed to draw naked men. Um, but
Speaker 1: we do it in secret and everyone knows, and it's
Speaker 1: fine and fascinating because even in that moment, it's almost
Speaker 1: like secretly drawing men, which um for a woman to
Speaker 1: do is not particularly queer, is all of a sudden
Speaker 1: queer coded because it's a secret and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: it was very fast. I was interesting. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's kind of fun, that's kind of saucy. And then
Speaker 1: she says like, yeah, women aren't allowed to paint like
Speaker 1: nude art of male figures to keep women from being
Speaker 1: great artists. So it's the patriarchy strikes again. Another power play. UM.
Speaker 1: I was interested in how because Selene Siama wrote and
Speaker 1: directed this movie and I was curious of what her
Speaker 1: research process was because I think, as we've all advtted
Speaker 1: at this point, this area of history in this region
Speaker 1: is very like vague to me. It was like, well
Speaker 1: what it was? What did she learn? Like did you
Speaker 1: what kind of research did she do? And I thought like, uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: in this Fox interview, Um, I just wanted to share
Speaker 1: this because it was just an area of art history
Speaker 1: I didn't know about where. Selene Siama says, quote, I
Speaker 1: did a lot of research on this period. I chose
Speaker 1: this moment of art history because there were hundreds of
Speaker 1: women painters at the time that had flourishing careers. We're
Speaker 1: always being told about women's progress and women's opportunity that
Speaker 1: we're quote unquote getting there, but it's not true. It's
Speaker 1: cycles and we can see it today. We experienced backlash also,
Speaker 1: and they did also at the time. There was a
Speaker 1: strong female critics scene that we never hear about, and
Speaker 1: they were looking at women's bodies of work more than
Speaker 1: their male colleagues were, for instance unquote. So it was
Speaker 1: just like a cool to learn that she's she was
Speaker 1: pulling from a time where you know, women's art was
Speaker 1: unusually accepted and prominent in a way that doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like it was reflected in history books because I guess
Speaker 1: who's usually in charge of those. Another interesting thing about
Speaker 1: that is which kind of took me by surprise. But
Speaker 1: I also just don't know enough about I mean history
Speaker 1: in general and specifically French history. But when Eloise and
Speaker 1: Marian are talking about like what's in store for them
Speaker 1: and their futures, Eloise is like, oh, when will you marry?
Speaker 1: And Marian's like, I don't know that I will. And
Speaker 1: she's like, what you don't have to and she's like
Speaker 1: and Marian's like, I'll take over my father's business, which
Speaker 1: struck me because I was like, oh, we're women allowed
Speaker 1: to be like business owners and proprietors in that era,
Speaker 1: in that part of the world. Apparently yes, Well she's
Speaker 1: kind of like she's almost like a freelance artist, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: just you know, give me a couple of give me
Speaker 1: a couple bucks, I'll do some erotic paintings of your
Speaker 1: daughter gig economy that she is a gig economy worker.
Speaker 1: That would be funny if if task Grabbic could send
Speaker 1: you out and a in a little canoe um to
Speaker 1: go do a gig for a couple of weeks. I
Speaker 1: do think like that that um, yeah, that that Like,
Speaker 1: I guess the way that class is structured in this
Speaker 1: movie is really interesting. I feel like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there's elements of it that are extremely
Speaker 1: glazed over, especially where it's I feel like France is
Speaker 1: kind of unique in that the class issues have always
Speaker 1: been a big like national discussion. There. She said, they've
Speaker 1: got those guillotines, but all if it, but all you know,
Speaker 1: the the trio of this story, you're all from kind
Speaker 1: of different class backgrounds, and you see the you know,
Speaker 1: benefits and not benefits of like Sophie is, you know,
Speaker 1: working class. She is very limited in what her options are.
Speaker 1: We see, we get a glimpse at her community. We
Speaker 1: know that she doesn't have the access to medicine that
Speaker 1: Eloise would have, she doesn't have the options, she has
Speaker 1: to work for a living, and on and on. Um.
Speaker 1: Then I feel like, I guess, I guess I would
Speaker 1: call Marianne more middle class. Where it seems like it's
Speaker 1: like at the time it was kind of a new thing,
Speaker 1: like right, like it's a submerging artisan class that didn't
Speaker 1: really exist before. Then because it was either like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're a peasant or your nobleman look um right, So yeah,
Speaker 1: she's definitely in this kind of in between middle space
Speaker 1: for sure, and of the three, it seems like she
Speaker 1: has kind of the most choice of what she can
Speaker 1: do with her life, which is I feel like kind
Speaker 1: of unusual. I mean, I guess it's like we don't
Speaker 1: live in a country where a middle class exists any longer.
Speaker 1: So maybe that's part of why you're like interesting. Um,
Speaker 1: But then you see, like Eloise, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I every time there's character like tragic aristocracy girls, I'm
Speaker 1: like kind of rolling my eye, but you do see.
Speaker 1: But I but I understand in the context of this
Speaker 1: time why being of the like why being in the
Speaker 1: upper class does work against her in some ways, Like
Speaker 1: she has infinitely more options and access than Sophie does,
Speaker 1: but in the same way she has, you know, no
Speaker 1: control over her life. She's also like, weirdly she knows
Speaker 1: less things, like she doesn't have as much she doesn't
Speaker 1: know about like you know, like Mayen teaches her just
Speaker 1: basic things about culture. At the time, she's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a song, I really like it because like all
Speaker 1: she had before that she was in the convent, which
Speaker 1: interestingly is painted as like a better option than like
Speaker 1: the marriage. And you kind of see why. Um, and
Speaker 1: you could argue that there's well, I don't know how
Speaker 1: blasphemous I want to go, but you could argue that
Speaker 1: in a queer context, the convent is interesting as well,
Speaker 1: because it's, uh, you know, certainly they're not all banging
Speaker 1: each other, not necessarily. I don't know. There is that
Speaker 1: classic story about the the bisexual swashbuckling French noblewoman who
Speaker 1: rescued her girlfriend from a conventence long story, Um, but
Speaker 1: what where's that movie? Look that one out? Yeah? J yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Why is it there a movie about that? I don't
Speaker 1: know her name I believe is Julie Dubini. Um, I
Speaker 1: feel like it might have before episode Yeah, I who
Speaker 1: did it come up? Oh? When you did the episode on? Uh?
Speaker 1: You know, why are there's so many lesbian period piece
Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll get into that, but one with with
Speaker 1: Rachel Weiss. I feel like, yes, yes, Izzie didn't tell
Speaker 1: us about that. That's it's a wild story, I mean,
Speaker 1: but anyway, I'm getting off track here. But all this
Speaker 1: to say The Confident kind of represents in a way
Speaker 1: a similar idyllic, all female environment, except you know, in
Speaker 1: this one they get to bang, which is nice um
Speaker 1: for them and for the viewers. You know, I guess
Speaker 1: if you're into that, um I am anyway, what well,
Speaker 1: I mean. Eloise even says like, I was having a
Speaker 1: ball at the convent because there was a library, I
Speaker 1: could hear music. And she says like, equality is a
Speaker 1: pleasant feeling. So because she was among all women and
Speaker 1: they were all equal among each other, she was like,
Speaker 1: the convent is actually pretty dope, pretty cool. Join the
Speaker 1: convent kids. That conversation that they because it sounds it's
Speaker 1: like implied that Marianne also spent time at a convent
Speaker 1: and she didn't like it as much. And Eloise is like, well,
Speaker 1: that's because you can do other stuff with your life,
Speaker 1: like you can just go to a library or like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that conversation was really interesting without kind of bashing you
Speaker 1: over the head about it being a conversation about class,
Speaker 1: because they're also vibing ate. The other interesting class component
Speaker 1: to me was that even though they're all from different classes,
Speaker 1: and Sophie in particulars from the lowest class of them.
Speaker 1: They all treat each other for the most part like equals.
Speaker 1: They like bring Sophie into their friendship. They play cards
Speaker 1: with her, they read story Ease together. They help her
Speaker 1: get an abortion without it being made a thing of
Speaker 1: at all. Like that, I feel like it was. The
Speaker 1: abortion storyline is really interesting in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: but I just I love that it's just like Marianne
Speaker 1: and Eloise are just like, oh, okay, you don't want
Speaker 1: to have a baby, let's figure this out, and it
Speaker 1: just becomes a team effort. We can you can join
Speaker 1: us on our dates, um and we'll have you know,
Speaker 1: you know, the classic lesbian date when you help a
Speaker 1: friend get an abortion, you know, on the beach. Kind
Speaker 1: of a third whale situation. But they make the best
Speaker 1: of it because they do so much. They gather herbs
Speaker 1: that are supposed to and apparently I was supposed to
Speaker 1: like induce an abortion. They have her run around, then
Speaker 1: they take her to this like medicine woman. You know,
Speaker 1: there's that there's many attempts involved, and I like that
Speaker 1: Sophie is so matter of fact about it too. It's
Speaker 1: just like I feel like with with abortion storylines, there's
Speaker 1: what you were describing earlier Caitlin where it's like the
Speaker 1: last second, like I can't do it, and it becomes
Speaker 1: this kind of like pro life e subtext, or there's
Speaker 1: just like this deep inherent shame attached to it, which
Speaker 1: I would have like props to Silly and Siama, because
Speaker 1: if someone was like, oh, a movie that takes place
Speaker 1: in you know, seventeen eighty whatever, I would have guessed
Speaker 1: that there would have been a lot of shame attached
Speaker 1: to it. But it's just like matter of fact, and
Speaker 1: Sophie doesn't feel shame about it either. She's just like,
Speaker 1: this is what I need to do and can you
Speaker 1: help me out? Yeah? Yeah, I mean relatedly, there's also
Speaker 1: that really interesting moment where Um mayan it's like looking
Speaker 1: away and actually earlier she's like, yeah, I've actually also
Speaker 1: had an abobo it happens, um, And but there's a
Speaker 1: moment where she's looking away and Louise is like, no,
Speaker 1: don't look away, And I think that kind of red
Speaker 1: forces the no shame thing, because it's like, look, there's
Speaker 1: nothing to be ashamed about. Don't be embarrassed. Like we're
Speaker 1: all here supporting our buddy. You no need to look away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then Marianne. Then I remember being kind of like
Speaker 1: it took me a second the first time I saw
Speaker 1: the movie to figure out what was going on when
Speaker 1: she was like, oh, I want to paint this too,
Speaker 1: and like document it somehow, because at first I was like,
Speaker 1: what is going on here? And there I did see
Speaker 1: some criticism around that of like's Sophie okay with this?
Speaker 1: They don't really ask her. She's just kind of out
Speaker 1: of it, and it's like, okay, I'll pose just like
Speaker 1: I guess it's been it's been a weird day already,
Speaker 1: so what's one more thing? But in the like abstract
Speaker 1: I thought that that was like such a such a
Speaker 1: cool choice of like, not only are they supported, they're
Speaker 1: like this is you know, it's it's it's especially because
Speaker 1: abortions are such like a normal part of life but
Speaker 1: never really documented or spoken about, especially you know, three
Speaker 1: hundred years ago. I thought it was really cool that
Speaker 1: she made an active choice to be like, no, this
Speaker 1: is worth documenting, and this is like a valid thing
Speaker 1: that happens in the world, and why doesn't any you know,
Speaker 1: why don't images exist of it? Yeah, that's true. Let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break. We'll come back to keep discussing,
Speaker 1: and we're back. I wanted to, I guess I wanted
Speaker 1: to just we've been talking a little bit about the
Speaker 1: behind the scenes of this movie, but I think it's
Speaker 1: like the story behind this movie. I remember reading it
Speaker 1: when it came out, but it was interesting to revisit that.
Speaker 1: Like this story, I feel like it's it's cool in
Speaker 1: the way that usually when we see stories that are
Speaker 1: about like artists and muses, it's never queer relationship. It's
Speaker 1: usually a male artist looking at a woman, and it
Speaker 1: often goes horrifically wrong. You know your phantom threads if
Speaker 1: you your mother exclamation mother. Yeah, Like, there's so many
Speaker 1: historical examples of it just becoming like a nightmare of control,
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of control dynamics and like
Speaker 1: who is looking and who has the power in this
Speaker 1: situation in this movie, But it's not centered on abuse
Speaker 1: and then centered on a queer relationship, and I kind
Speaker 1: of forgot that. Selene Siama and Adele Oh, how do
Speaker 1: I see her last name? Chloe? Adele annell Holy cow?
Speaker 1: I guess it's fun. Yeah, Uh, Seline Siama and Adele Annell. Um,
Speaker 1: we're in a relationship for a long time, and that
Speaker 1: to an extent, this is a movie reflecting on their relationship,
Speaker 1: which was like super interesting. Yeah, it's like, wow, I
Speaker 1: that's so healthy. Yeah I know that. Yeah. They're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we broke up, um, but we're still buds. Um. You
Speaker 1: can still be in my movies, you know, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very interesting. And there is there is like one
Speaker 1: you know, conversation that's a little bit about control and
Speaker 1: kind of the subtext is about exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: It's like the one moment where they have an actual
Speaker 1: fight and pretty much immediately Mallion apologizes AND's like I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry. It's like, okay, it's resolved. Wow, it turns
Speaker 1: out it's really easy. You just gotta say I'm sorry
Speaker 1: and then you're you're good. Unbelievable, Like they just listened
Speaker 1: to each other. Um yeah, I mean it's like, I
Speaker 1: won't get two into it, but I fell down the
Speaker 1: Selinciama adele Annel relationship rabbit hole. And they just have
Speaker 1: so much mutual respect for each other. Uh. They've been
Speaker 1: working together for like a decade or something like that,
Speaker 1: for something like six or seven years, like yeah, and
Speaker 1: then and they they were broken up by the time
Speaker 1: this movie existed, and it was just like, I want
Speaker 1: to find that. There's so many quotes about it. Um,
Speaker 1: So okay, I'll choose a Selene Siama quote because they
Speaker 1: were like not shy about talking about it as as
Speaker 1: the movie was on a press too as well. So
Speaker 1: Siama says, just as the characters in the film discover
Speaker 1: each other in a painting studio, so Adele and I
Speaker 1: met on a film set. We talked a lot about
Speaker 1: cinema during our relationship, and we grew enormously intellectually. I
Speaker 1: also wanted to show that in the film the lasting
Speaker 1: emancipating effect that such a romantic encounter can have on
Speaker 1: your life. Uh. Which and and there. They also have
Speaker 1: both talked about how it was like very known on
Speaker 1: set and almost like t he as at this a
Speaker 1: bizarre situation to be putting this whole crew it, But
Speaker 1: but it's fun. Yeah, it's it's very interesting. Um. That
Speaker 1: is a very cool thing that they are able to
Speaker 1: do that. Um. And I, since we're on the topic
Speaker 1: of a little bit behind the scenes and talking about
Speaker 1: a little bit about more about the about Sciama and
Speaker 1: I would be remiss not to mention that adult Annell
Speaker 1: is a badass, is like a really really cool, like
Speaker 1: outspoken feminist advocate in France, and you know, within acting
Speaker 1: and uh specifically caused quite a scene because she I
Speaker 1: don't know, was it twenty I think it was the
Speaker 1: most recent one at the Yeah, the SISA, which is
Speaker 1: for those who don't know, is kind of like the
Speaker 1: kind of like France's oscars um. I don't know why
Speaker 1: all these awards are named after men, but whatever, an
Speaker 1: interesting thing to impact I know why. But um, yeah,
Speaker 1: the SIZZA, she she caused quite a commotion because they
Speaker 1: were giving some kind of honorary award to Polanski and
Speaker 1: she you know, walked out loudly in protests and was
Speaker 1: basically go, I don't remember exactly what she said, but
Speaker 1: she was basically, you know, mocking the whole thing, being like, yeah, cool,
Speaker 1: let's give awards to rapists, fuck you guys, um And
Speaker 1: and she was much more eloquent than what I just
Speaker 1: know that's exactly what she's at. But yeah, and so
Speaker 1: it's a very it's a cool thing she in general is, um,
Speaker 1: it's just kind of a badass. So I felt I
Speaker 1: wanted to point that out didn't Uh Selene Siama also
Speaker 1: like join her in walking Out. Yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: the whole crew basically, but Adele and Lle was one
Speaker 1: of the she was the spearheading it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she's talked a lot about her own experiences with
Speaker 1: you know, abuse in the industry, and um, yeah, she's
Speaker 1: she's very cool, so she's definitely someone to watch in general.
Speaker 1: And she's a phenomenal actress, which is cool as well.
Speaker 1: Everyone in this move has a perfect complexion and it
Speaker 1: made me so self conscious that yeah, Adele and now
Speaker 1: she will link to this as well. But the yeah,
Speaker 1: she she spoke extensively about like being harassed sexually harassed
Speaker 1: when she was an underage actor, and how in many
Speaker 1: ways her relationship with Seli Siama was like healing experience
Speaker 1: of like having a close relationship with a director who
Speaker 1: respected and heard her, was equity in the relationship, who knew. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I I loved learning about their relationship and that they're
Speaker 1: working relationship. It's all just like they're both so uniquely
Speaker 1: cool and the other. The other um thing I think
Speaker 1: worth mentioning in the background of this movie is that
Speaker 1: there is a female cinematographer Claire Mathson Claire Mathon, let's
Speaker 1: say hold on cinematography by Yeah yeah, Claire Matson, who
Speaker 1: has also given a lot of interesting interviews around this movie.
Speaker 1: And it's that seems to be the real priority for
Speaker 1: Selinciama throughout her career is to prioritize the female gays.
Speaker 1: And she I mean because she's been she's been making
Speaker 1: movies since oh seven, that I like. It seems like
Speaker 1: there's a lot of different takes on her body of work,
Speaker 1: but that they have generally prioritized female gays in in
Speaker 1: the way that there shot in female female gays and
Speaker 1: the female gays. There's a lot of wow. Selinciama is
Speaker 1: all about the female games and always imaginable. Yeah. There's
Speaker 1: been a lot of criticism of lesbian love stories to
Speaker 1: acted by men, notably The Handmaid in Blue is the
Speaker 1: warmest color clouds of Sulia and Carol. That I mean
Speaker 1: in the ways in which the women in those movies
Speaker 1: are sexualized vary from movie to movie. There's a spectrum here,
Speaker 1: but these movies do tend to focus heavily on kind
Speaker 1: of sexualizing the women and focus a lot on the
Speaker 1: sex scenes in ways that could be considered to be
Speaker 1: like catering to the male gaze, and Celenciyama has spoken
Speaker 1: about that and spoken about how like lesbian movies directed
Speaker 1: by men often do a disservice to lesbian and queer women, saying, quote,
Speaker 1: these stories are really dangerous for patriarchy. That's why the
Speaker 1: male gaze is obsessed with representing lesbians, for instance. It's
Speaker 1: a way to control it. Our stories are powerful because
Speaker 1: they are dangerous. We are dangerous. So it's a very
Speaker 1: good strategy to despise us, to undermine us, because it's
Speaker 1: giving us less leverage for a very powerful political dynamic unquote.
Speaker 1: So to have this story written and directed by a woman,
Speaker 1: a queer woman, to have it shot by a woman,
Speaker 1: to have the story told entirely through the lens of women,
Speaker 1: the differences are clear. Like comparing this to for example,
Speaker 1: blue is the Warmest Color, or The Handmaid in which
Speaker 1: we're also covering The Handmaid in later this month, a
Speaker 1: movie I really like, and I think it is very
Speaker 1: cool and well written, but there are you know, pretty
Speaker 1: graphic sex scenes that are arguably pretty gratuitous. No need
Speaker 1: for an argument. Really, Yeah, I have a lot of
Speaker 1: thoughts about Yeah, about the about there's a lot there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's really interesting. You just brought up a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot of good stuff. Um. I I have to
Speaker 1: say I have a soft spot for Carol in particular,
Speaker 1: I do. I didn't like Carol. It feels a little
Speaker 1: different to me from those other movies. Um, maybe in
Speaker 1: part because Todd is that's Todd Haynes, right, if I'm
Speaker 1: remembering Christ Todd Haynes is a queer man. So that
Speaker 1: kind of is an interesting twist in a way. Um
Speaker 1: for me, that one is a little different. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's definitely a thing where like, you know, there's this
Speaker 1: bizarre element of yeah, lesbians are hot, see them do
Speaker 1: stuff with their legs together. Um, this is not a
Speaker 1: visual podcast, so you'll imagine what I'm doing. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the fascinating about this film and I and I actually
Speaker 1: like a good sex scene frankly, but the fascinating thing
Speaker 1: about this film is I forgot they don't really have
Speaker 1: a sex scene. I forgot until rewatching it that there
Speaker 1: actually isn't one. And I think the reason it feels
Speaker 1: like there's one even though there isn't, This whole movie
Speaker 1: is like one big long sex scene emotionally, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, there's some so romantic and it's
Speaker 1: so sensual, and it's so um you know that all
Speaker 1: those lingering gazes you know, and so and you do
Speaker 1: and you do see nudity. Um the movie shy about that.
Speaker 1: It's just you don't necessarily see like, you know, thrusting
Speaker 1: um right, a very objectifying yeah. Yeah, And so that's
Speaker 1: very interesting because I'm I'm a very um varying minds
Speaker 1: about sex scenes. I do like a good sex scene,
Speaker 1: but it's hard to do a good one, and I
Speaker 1: think a lot a lot of it does become this
Speaker 1: weird like let's just have a marathon like sex session
Speaker 1: and people we all love it. It's like, Okay, calm down,
Speaker 1: hang out and do armpit and she's together. Well, that's admittedly,
Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons when I first saw this,
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, this movie is boring. Where's all
Speaker 1: the steamy sex I was expecting to see? And then
Speaker 1: I was reading different people's perspectives and reading about this
Speaker 1: kind of tendency, especially for men directing queer women's stories,
Speaker 1: and their tendency to over sexualize the relationships. I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I I now appreciate more why Selene's Yama didn't go there,
Speaker 1: But I also think I would have liked to see
Speaker 1: like a lesbian sex scene that is through the lens
Speaker 1: of a queer woman and what that would look like.
Speaker 1: So I'm sure you know the scenes exist, Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: I can give some recommendations, but yeah, no, It's true.
Speaker 1: Part of me is like I wouldn't have said no
Speaker 1: to a sex scene, but also I get why it's
Speaker 1: not there, um right, you know, yeah, I I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure where to fall there. I guess it's like ultimately
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, iris her decision, Like I'm sure that
Speaker 1: she had, you know, she she seems like, just based
Speaker 1: on every interview I've read with her, that she does
Speaker 1: things really really really intentionally. And so while I would
Speaker 1: have been down to see a sex scene, Chloe, You're
Speaker 1: totally right, like it is. It's it's it's an extremely
Speaker 1: sexy movie for a movie where you don't see sex,
Speaker 1: and I do like the like level of I don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like in all movies, I feel like
Speaker 1: there's not always like that level of like close physical
Speaker 1: intimacy and like prioritizing seeing it. I would have, honestly
Speaker 1: like I would have I would have liked a sex
Speaker 1: scene in this movie. But there's so but it's so
Speaker 1: much physical intimacy and like just it's I don't know,
Speaker 1: I I think it's really it's so romantic. And oh
Speaker 1: that The last most imp hordant behind the scenes note
Speaker 1: is that Selene Siama, as I think we've already mentioned,
Speaker 1: was influenced by Titanic for this movie. Uh. And she
Speaker 1: she spoke about it in that same box interview which
Speaker 1: will link it's so good. Um. She says Titanic is
Speaker 1: the hugest success, and it's because it's totally queer. So
Speaker 1: shout out to queer canon Titanic. Um. But the piece
Speaker 1: by Emily vander Wert, says uh. Siama says in an
Speaker 1: interview she wanted the romance in Portrait of a Lady
Speaker 1: on Fire to feel like, of all things, the scenes
Speaker 1: between Jack and Rose and Titanic, which she considers to
Speaker 1: be one of the cinema's great totally queer love stories. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think in that way with that, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: the physical intimacy without I mean, I guess, but you
Speaker 1: do get a sex scene in Titanic, So like, where
Speaker 1: is the sex scene, Selene? But it's a very fade
Speaker 1: to black kind of, it's a very tame sex scene
Speaker 1: because I gotta keep it PG Third Team, it's like
Speaker 1: the same vibe um. But yeah, the idea that, like
Speaker 1: Titanic is a queer love story because Leonardo DiCaprio was
Speaker 1: quote totally androgynous at the time, is love It a
Speaker 1: whole new way to watch Titanic. Just remake Titanic with
Speaker 1: like a cute butch instead of Leo. Let's see, let's
Speaker 1: just see, let's just check it out, Let's see what happened.
Speaker 1: It would work, Let's it would work. I would love
Speaker 1: to hear a Selene Siama audio commentary on Titanic. Just yeah,
Speaker 1: you gotta get her. You gotta get her on the pod.
Speaker 1: You gotta get you gotta get her on the pod
Speaker 1: for another Titanic episode. We're going to do one, at
Speaker 1: least one every year. So what if what if Selene? Wait,
Speaker 1: hold on, wait, we're suddenly on something. What if Selene
Speaker 1: is the one who remakes Titanic just a thought spitballing,
Speaker 1: just putting it out there, and then you'll have two
Speaker 1: Selene's on the project. I mean Selene Dion come back
Speaker 1: and write another amazing song whole Selene, is it a
Speaker 1: world prepared? Maybe she could get involved. Yeah, shout out
Speaker 1: to my cousin. She could be she could be Mr
Speaker 1: Andrews or somebody. Yeah, all female reboot of Titanic. The
Speaker 1: other thing I wanted to bring up as it relates
Speaker 1: to kind of a general trend of just like queer women,
Speaker 1: love stories, lesbian movies. It the white lesbian period film trend. Yes,
Speaker 1: of course it is. So, I mean this has been
Speaker 1: talked about, so we're not bringing up anything new on
Speaker 1: the podcast, but it's still worth mentioning that, um, a
Speaker 1: lot of mainstream lesbian movies, especially the ones that have
Speaker 1: like big stars and get a like wider theatrical release,
Speaker 1: take place in the past during a time when it
Speaker 1: was not at all tolerated by society for people of
Speaker 1: the same gender to be together romantically. So with this trend,
Speaker 1: you can look at it a few ways, and it's
Speaker 1: not inherently a negative thing because, on one hand, it
Speaker 1: shows something that's often been you know, overlooked or forgotten
Speaker 1: about in history, which is that queer people have always existed,
Speaker 1: and it shows to some extent what queer people have
Speaker 1: had to deal with in societies that were even more
Speaker 1: heteronormative than society is today. But then it also means
Speaker 1: that a lot of lesbian love stories are about like
Speaker 1: a doomed, clandestine romance in which the character's time spent
Speaker 1: together is very fleeting, in which the characters cannot live
Speaker 1: happy lives together, in which they cannot fully be themselves.
Speaker 1: So this is a trend we see in this movie
Speaker 1: Portrait of a Lady on Fire in the Favorite in Carol,
Speaker 1: a couple of recent movies Ammanite, which is the Kate
Speaker 1: Winslett Sarsha Nan I haven't seen. Has anyone seen Ammonite?
Speaker 1: I have not, But I will say something really that
Speaker 1: really tickled me is when I rewatched Portrait of Lady
Speaker 1: on Fire last night, you know, because it's on Hulu.
Speaker 1: So it's like, I'll just rewatch it on Hulu. It
Speaker 1: was like next suggestion, Ammanite. I was like, what come on?
Speaker 1: Like what am I just binging like lesbian period pieces
Speaker 1: right now? What do you want? Hulu? What are you
Speaker 1: trying to do to me? And then there's another one
Speaker 1: from called The world to come, which one is. I
Speaker 1: watched the trailer. It seems like a sexier like thriller.
Speaker 1: The thing that also Casey Affleck is in what which
Speaker 1: is like why you're like, I think you can skip
Speaker 1: it because of him being a thank you? It does?
Speaker 1: I feel like it does, um And we we had
Speaker 1: a version of this conversation in our episode on Carol.
Speaker 1: I believe, but it does sort of. I mean it's it's,
Speaker 1: first of all, a very white genre and and most
Speaker 1: of the relationships focused on are often straight white actresses
Speaker 1: playing queer characters, which I would just refer everyone to
Speaker 1: the Carol episode for our discussion about that, because I
Speaker 1: know that's a very complicated topic. But it also means
Speaker 1: that you don't get any like queer joy or celebration
Speaker 1: by like focusing strictly on time periods where you know
Speaker 1: what's not going to happen, like it's it's tragic and
Speaker 1: the and the interesting thing, and I will say is
Speaker 1: that it's not even a hundred percent historically accurate either,
Speaker 1: because an old timey queer romance is not necessarily something
Speaker 1: that's going to end in tragedy either. Obviously there's a
Speaker 1: higher percentage because you know, social expectations, get married to men,
Speaker 1: all this stuff. But you know, there are obviously, there
Speaker 1: are historical examples of women living together and very heavily
Speaker 1: sometimes explicitly mentioned as being together, you know, in a
Speaker 1: romantic sexual way. And obviously it's a little rarer, but
Speaker 1: it didn't doesn't mean it didn't happen. Actually, I mean
Speaker 1: spoiler alert for Fingersmith. I guess that you know, you
Speaker 1: if if you've seen The Handmaid and you already know
Speaker 1: kind of the story, Um, but that one is interesting
Speaker 1: because it doesn't end in a in a sad way,
Speaker 1: even though to get there is really wild. I mean,
Speaker 1: a lot happens in that story. But that's kind of
Speaker 1: an interesting example of like, yeah, actually, you know there
Speaker 1: were this is I mean, there's my very um gender
Speaker 1: one oh one. Like literally I took a gender and
Speaker 1: sexuality class in college. Shout out to NYU, but uh,
Speaker 1: one of the interests things about that class that was
Speaker 1: genuinely eye opening to me. It's like, yeah, in a way,
Speaker 1: sometimes because of the fact that there weren't necessarily labels
Speaker 1: and things like that, sometimes people were just like, you
Speaker 1: know what, none of my business felt like whatever, And
Speaker 1: it's not always like obviously that it wasn't like there
Speaker 1: wasn't the same freedom that that people have now. But
Speaker 1: there were absolutely cases, you know, if communities were just
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, that's Isabelle and Annabelle. I don't know
Speaker 1: those are I don't know why. Well that was when
Speaker 1: attracted them to each other originally the bell Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they just you know, they lived together in this old
Speaker 1: house and neither of them got married and whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not I'm not gonna ask questions,
Speaker 1: you know, like that, there was absolutely a phenomenon, you know,
Speaker 1: and even like my my mom's family comes from uh,
Speaker 1: you know, like they were um farmers, you know, until
Speaker 1: my grandparents moved to the city. Is a very you know,
Speaker 1: almost a stereo typical like yeah, you know, farmers moving
Speaker 1: to the big city. And then my mom grew up
Speaker 1: in Paris as a result, but like her whole family
Speaker 1: were like farmers, and they're absolutely stories of like yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, everyone knew so and so was gay, but
Speaker 1: you just didn't talk about it, and it wasn't it
Speaker 1: was It wasn't like a thing that was like yeah
Speaker 1: ra ra ra gay, but nobody bothered them at the
Speaker 1: same time. So it's not like that didn't exist. I
Speaker 1: mean there's a whole term bust in marriage, right that
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes they were just old ladies referred to,
Speaker 1: but sometimes they're banging. Sometimes they were banging, you know.
Speaker 1: And so it's it is interesting that the default is
Speaker 1: it is kind of an excuse to be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well this one's got to be tragic because it's old timey,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, it doesn't. And it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be white either, right, Like, because it's old timy,
Speaker 1: you know, this was before um, this was before people
Speaker 1: of color were invented. I'm sorry, it's only white people. Like, no,
Speaker 1: that's wild, that doesn't make sense, you know, it's just
Speaker 1: it's not true. Right. So yeah, I think sometimes even
Speaker 1: though there are trappings of the genre that make that
Speaker 1: more likely to be the story told, it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be either. And it's sort of a shame that
Speaker 1: through the long realm, like there's so much history, Like
Speaker 1: if we want to do a historical lesbian romance, why
Speaker 1: does it always have to be the same thing? You know,
Speaker 1: there's you could do it. I want to see a
Speaker 1: historical lesbian romance about like ancient Egyptians. Why not. I
Speaker 1: don't know anything about that. Could be, you know, just
Speaker 1: throwing it up there. There's so many opportunities, so many people,
Speaker 1: so many just want on a full, full fledged rant there.
Speaker 1: So I and another thing, I'm glad you said that though,
Speaker 1: because it is like there is like an element of
Speaker 1: revisionist history at play there that it's like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: I think we're almost conditioned to believe that there was
Speaker 1: no way for a queer relationship to work out before
Speaker 1: fifty years ago. Yeah, and even though this movie kind
Speaker 1: of follows that sort of convention that we're used to.
Speaker 1: Selene Siama was also talking about this revisionist element when
Speaker 1: she was talking about this movie, where she said, um, quote,
Speaker 1: the tragedy of lesbian life is not the tragedy of
Speaker 1: lesbian representation. It's not the same. Lesbians have been activists.
Speaker 1: They've had the opportunity to live their life more freely
Speaker 1: sometimes than straight women because they could avoid a lot
Speaker 1: of things like getting married and having children. If you
Speaker 1: look at the Suffragettes, for instance, lesbians were there. The
Speaker 1: tragedy is we get erased from history. And that's like
Speaker 1: speaking exactly to your point. Layer, It's like, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of stories that are not extremely tragic, but
Speaker 1: they just are not prioritized and they're not taught I
Speaker 1: mean at all. Yeah, and in the case of this story,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I mean, so it's a tragic
Speaker 1: story because Seline wanted to talk about her breakup and
Speaker 1: kind of obviously it a lot um But part of
Speaker 1: what's interesting to me about this one is that even
Speaker 1: though it ends with them not together, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, it's about the beauty of their love.
Speaker 1: That's so maybe that's too corny, but it is the
Speaker 1: right So it doesn't feel as tragic to me. For
Speaker 1: me that the tears at the end of the movie,
Speaker 1: both for the spectator and for you know, the character
Speaker 1: is it's sad, but it's kind of bittersweet at the
Speaker 1: same time. It's sad, but it's also weirdly a little
Speaker 1: joyful because it's remembering this thing with so much love,
Speaker 1: you know, It's there's so much love behind it. So
Speaker 1: it's kind of an interesting I don't know, And maybe
Speaker 1: I'm just saying this because I like the movie, but
Speaker 1: it feels to me like it's not quite exactly playing
Speaker 1: into those tropes in quite the same way. I don't know,
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm just talking at my butt, but oh,
Speaker 1: I mean Marian at the very end says like she's
Speaker 1: talking to her one of her students, and her student
Speaker 1: has like drawn her in a particular way, and Marian's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you've made me look sad. And she's like, well, you
Speaker 1: looked sad, and she's like, well, I'm not anymore. I'm
Speaker 1: not sad anymore. So I think I'm going to fill
Speaker 1: in some headcannon where you know, Eloise was her first
Speaker 1: true love, but you know, she went back to Paris
Speaker 1: and she met another nice lady and now they're living
Speaker 1: together and Marian's teaching art to girls, and then maybe
Speaker 1: she got like a hot, hot Leo DiCaprio looking butch lady.
Speaker 1: We don't know, we don't know, yes, y, yeah, fully
Speaker 1: support that, um. But yeah, the trend is noticeable that
Speaker 1: it's you know, white ladies in the past who rarely
Speaker 1: get what we would consider by like mainstream Hollywood movie standards,
Speaker 1: like a happy ending. But hopefully we're kind of trending
Speaker 1: away from that, or at least that we get to
Speaker 1: see just more diversity in the sense of the types
Speaker 1: of stories that get told and the people who fill
Speaker 1: out those stories, and yeah, because more diversity is certainly needed. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and it is interesting and and I feel like it's
Speaker 1: a positive step that it is queer women telling queer
Speaker 1: stories as opposed to random guy and write blue is
Speaker 1: the Warmest Color was very briefly brought up earlier, and
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good example of like, like
Speaker 1: that one, it's on every level, like, you know, since
Speaker 1: that movie has come out, the actresses have also been like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it wasn't a great filming experience. You know, there's just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it, that one's rough. And for a while
Speaker 1: it was like, yeah, this is it. This is a
Speaker 1: lesbian movie, isn't it great. I'm like, no, it's not. Though,
Speaker 1: like there's you know, there's still so much room for progress,
Speaker 1: and it's like this, I don't know, this movie is
Speaker 1: interesting because it falls into that category and then in
Speaker 1: some ways it doesn't, which I'm like, okay, so incremental steps.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to talk about Marianne and Eloise's relationship
Speaker 1: a little bit because I think it's so cool and
Speaker 1: the way that there I don't know, like again just
Speaker 1: having a you know, muse artist relationship that is like
Speaker 1: pulling from a real life dynamic of Selene and Adele
Speaker 1: and having their b push and pull and having there
Speaker 1: be kind of this push for equity in that relationship
Speaker 1: on top of equity and a romantic relationship is just
Speaker 1: not something you see in movies really ever, or like
Speaker 1: the power dynamics of how because the power dynamics of
Speaker 1: their relationship changes over time. Where Marianne she she definitely
Speaker 1: struggles being vulnerable. She clearly likes to be in control
Speaker 1: of the situation. She is the painter. You know, it's
Speaker 1: like she's going to see into you, but you don't
Speaker 1: get to learn anything about her and Eloie watching Eloie's
Speaker 1: kind of challenge that and push back on that and
Speaker 1: be like I'm looking at you too, Like that scene
Speaker 1: is so good. Yeah, I just love that that And
Speaker 1: like there's also this element that is very common in
Speaker 1: romantic stories involving every one of all genders, where like
Speaker 1: there's some deception at the beginning of it, and that's
Speaker 1: the case for this too, but like the deception is
Speaker 1: very short, it's only kind of happening by necessity, and
Speaker 1: then basically as soon as possible Marianne is like, I
Speaker 1: wanna like clear the air here. I want to be
Speaker 1: the one to tell her myself. I want to like
Speaker 1: explain what was happening. So I really appreciated that as
Speaker 1: just like her wanting to be forthcoming about what the
Speaker 1: situation is and clear the air as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: They handle conflict really well, where it's like anytime they
Speaker 1: have an issue, it's just like discussed right away, or
Speaker 1: they're like they're also good about apologizing to each other
Speaker 1: when an apology is warranted, and like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm just like, damn, this is relationship goals. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: kind of now. It's true. They have a really interesting dynamic,
Speaker 1: and I do. I love that that. Marianne is basically like, look,
Speaker 1: I've done this super secret painting I made. I'm going
Speaker 1: to make sure the prom queen, but I'm gonna tell
Speaker 1: her first. I don't want to, you know, like, um, like,
Speaker 1: can I make the dorkiest girl in school the prompt?
Speaker 1: That's just the first thing that I thought. I thought, deception,
Speaker 1: it's weird, but but no, but it really is. Um,
Speaker 1: it really is like that. The relationship, the actual romantic
Speaker 1: part at first is kind of built on that deception,
Speaker 1: because there's that really interesting exchange where Louise is like, Okay,
Speaker 1: so that's why you were looking at me like that.
Speaker 1: I thought you were I thought you were like checking
Speaker 1: me out. You know. There's so much subtext where she
Speaker 1: doesn't literally say I thought you were checking me out,
Speaker 1: but it's very clear that that's what she means. Um,
Speaker 1: where she was like, yeah, I thought you actually thought
Speaker 1: I was cute, but never mind, you're just studying my cheekbones. Okay, cool,
Speaker 1: And then Mariann's like, no, but I also was doing that,
Speaker 1: but I also like your cheekbones. Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: staring at your lips because I need to paint their
Speaker 1: exact shape, but also I would like to kissed them.
Speaker 1: You see. So it's complicated, right, So yeah, the the
Speaker 1: I did really like that. She kind of reveals that
Speaker 1: right away, and after that it does shift the power
Speaker 1: dynamic again because now, first of all, the dynamic is
Speaker 1: a lot more clear because before, even though the dynamic
Speaker 1: was Heloise is the noble lady and this is my companion,
Speaker 1: my walking, my slow walking companion. Um, now it's like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: this is you know, actually she's a painter. She's painting you,
Speaker 1: you have to kind of obey her. There's kind of
Speaker 1: low key, interesting kinky thing going on there. A little
Speaker 1: bit very low key, but it is kind of interesting
Speaker 1: where you're kind of like, yeah, you gotta you gotta
Speaker 1: do as I say, put your hands over here like this.
Speaker 1: But even then, that's very interesting. The first time she
Speaker 1: poses her she does ask for permission. She's like, can
Speaker 1: I can I move your hand. It's a very interesting
Speaker 1: thing because it kind of substitutes as asking for permission
Speaker 1: to kiss. For example, the first time they kissed, they
Speaker 1: don't ask each other, but it's one of those wordless
Speaker 1: you know, let's take off our masks because it's a
Speaker 1: pandemic thing. Um. That is so it is so weird
Speaker 1: that they have a mask. Is very bizaria. It's interesting
Speaker 1: but very weird. But yeah, yeah, to me, there were
Speaker 1: no traces of surprise kiss is happening here. It was
Speaker 1: all of consensual. It was, which is pretty rad um,
Speaker 1: pretty pretty red and understanding red anyway. Um. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that whole that whole part that Jamie that you mentioned
Speaker 1: where she's basically telling her like all about her in
Speaker 1: depth analysis of like yeah, when you're awkward, you like
Speaker 1: scrunch your nose. I don't remember exactly what it is.
Speaker 1: It's not that. But and then she flips on her
Speaker 1: as like, well, guess what, I know all of your
Speaker 1: cool mannerisms to all your little quirks because like your
Speaker 1: eyebrows move. And then she's like, you noticed my eyebrows move?
Speaker 1: How dare you? No one's ever told me my eyebrows move?
Speaker 1: For yeah, A lot of really good flirting in this movie,
Speaker 1: really like excellent flirting. Just a lot of conversations about
Speaker 1: looking at each other and then a lot of looking
Speaker 1: at each other right, which is what Caitlin. One of
Speaker 1: the complaints I'm sure is part of the reasons so
Speaker 1: long is that they do look at each other a
Speaker 1: long But I personally love it. I love the like
Speaker 1: layers of like, I don't know, I mean, this is like,
Speaker 1: I guess part of the sad the sadness of the
Speaker 1: relationship is the whole thing is like predicated on like
Speaker 1: once Marianne can see Eloise clearly, that marks the ending
Speaker 1: of their time together, and that like, if she's successful
Speaker 1: in seeing another person, that means that she then needs
Speaker 1: to give up that authentic image to someone who Eloise
Speaker 1: doesn't even know and has to go off to and
Speaker 1: that didn't like I mean, I recognize that the first
Speaker 1: time I saw the movie, but I didn't really think
Speaker 1: about it until this viewing. And it's because of I
Speaker 1: think I just didn't think about the countess very much
Speaker 1: in the in my first viewing of this movie. But
Speaker 1: the mom character is interesting. We haven't really talked about her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because her, because she gives the perfect setup for like
Speaker 1: what these portraits are accomplishing, and like reflects on how
Speaker 1: she feels about her own portrait where you know, you
Speaker 1: see a portrait of like the younger countess in the
Speaker 1: whatever den where they're always chilling, and and it's like
Speaker 1: this is like the image that your husband, who you
Speaker 1: don't know, receives before you get there. And she is
Speaker 1: like talking about how this portrait of her arrived before
Speaker 1: she ever did, and then she had to arrive and
Speaker 1: it's like this picture here staring at her and she
Speaker 1: has to live up to this image that may or
Speaker 1: may not be an authentic reflection of who she was,
Speaker 1: and that her daughter, of course, is going to I mean,
Speaker 1: but it sounds like both of her daughters were extremely
Speaker 1: you know, pushing against that and feeling kind of the
Speaker 1: the constraint and doom that came with it. Because it's
Speaker 1: this is like not really discussed very heavily in the movie.
Speaker 1: It's mostly at the beginning, but it's Sophie. I think
Speaker 1: Sophie tells Marianne that it seems like Eloise's sister died
Speaker 1: by suicide by wordlessly stepping off of a cliff, and
Speaker 1: Eloise later opens up and says that her sister had
Speaker 1: left her this kind of veiled apology and a letter
Speaker 1: because she was aware that by taking her own life,
Speaker 1: Eloise was going to have to marry this guy instead.
Speaker 1: But it just it's it's I mean, even though it's
Speaker 1: like men aren't in the movie, that like looming cloud
Speaker 1: of aristocracy, patriarchy is very like it's hanging over this
Speaker 1: family in a really intense way. And as much as
Speaker 1: it's like I wish that the Countess could solve patriarchy
Speaker 1: and be like, you know, you don't have to do this,
Speaker 1: We'll just live in this old house forever and don't
Speaker 1: you worry about it, blah blah blah, but I think
Speaker 1: that is like where some of the realism of the
Speaker 1: movie comes in where it's like the Countess is such
Speaker 1: a tough character because it's like I don't like her,
Speaker 1: I think, especially after losing her daughter, Like why why
Speaker 1: not reevaluate, you know, before putting your your other daughter
Speaker 1: in this exact same position with the exact same guy.
Speaker 1: Like it is implied that it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: selfish decision on her part because she wants to go
Speaker 1: back to Milan, where she's from. But then it's also
Speaker 1: like what else would they do? I don't really know,
Speaker 1: Like it's it's just so, and she's not a completely
Speaker 1: unsympathetic character, and the moments you see her with Eloise,
Speaker 1: I totally understand why Eloise is like, um, going to
Speaker 1: keep you at arm's length, But you can also see
Speaker 1: how the Countess like really desperately wants to connect with
Speaker 1: her daughter and can't, and they clearly like it doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like there's been much of a discussion or grieving
Speaker 1: process about her sister, and just like there's all this
Speaker 1: stuff hanging over this family that they just aren't talking about.
Speaker 1: I mean, this movie frames this type of like arranged
Speaker 1: aristocratic marriage as a prison, a prison which her mother
Speaker 1: was originally in, like and that's why she's like in
Speaker 1: this big empty house now because she like by the
Speaker 1: bonds of marriage, had to like leave Milan and go here,
Speaker 1: and then she had daughters and now she's sort of
Speaker 1: setting them up in this rosen cow all over again exactly.
Speaker 1: So she's setting them up like with this marriage with
Speaker 1: this guy and like kind of her escaping her own prison.
Speaker 1: She's doing that via putting her daughter's in like the
Speaker 1: next generation of this like prison marriage thing. So it's
Speaker 1: just like this weird cyclical patriarchal thing. Yeah. At the
Speaker 1: same time, that's part of the reason she justifies it, right,
Speaker 1: She was like, well, that's what that's what I had
Speaker 1: to do, you know, like like I didn't like it
Speaker 1: at first, but you know, the things that you grow
Speaker 1: to like, and you know, and Milan is cool. You
Speaker 1: like Milan. Um, that's great. When you by the way,
Speaker 1: when you were talking about t again, I just pictured
Speaker 1: that um that the Milanese gentleman is just Billy's ain
Speaker 1: off screen just totally we we can't prove it's not. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it is a really interesting thing. And
Speaker 1: there's this kind of interesting went to where um, Marianne
Speaker 1: and the mom like bond. They have that cute moment
Speaker 1: where they speak Italian together, which I had actually also
Speaker 1: forgotten about, and I do actually speak a little Italian,
Speaker 1: so I was like, oh cool, he's my Italian one
Speaker 1: of one um. But yeah, there is a really interesting dynamic,
Speaker 1: for sure, because she knows that it's not good, but
Speaker 1: also she's kind of just like, well, that's how it is.
Speaker 1: That's what you gotta do. You know, that's its own tragedy.
Speaker 1: In some ways, that is almost you can't help but
Speaker 1: wonder like did the mom have her own fun little
Speaker 1: lesbian trist like I hope she at least has her
Speaker 1: page somewhere, but probably not. Probably not. Yeah, it is
Speaker 1: very interesting the mom character, especially because when she comes
Speaker 1: back from that trip, you know that you well, this
Speaker 1: is the interesting question. You almost wonder like does she know,
Speaker 1: like does she understand what exactly was happening, because she
Speaker 1: kind of seems like she us. She kind of seems
Speaker 1: like she was like, all right, I'll let you have
Speaker 1: your lesbian love affair, but you better come back with
Speaker 1: a painting. Yeah, I'll be gone for five days, make
Speaker 1: sure you make the most of it, and then I'll
Speaker 1: be back at the end. Of it, and I also
Speaker 1: wonder if Sophie knows. I think Sophie does know. She's
Speaker 1: got to know, he's got to know. I don't know
Speaker 1: how thin the walls are in like old timey like
Speaker 1: French castles, but we're not castles. It's a little home,
Speaker 1: I guess. But yeah, why didn't they share their drugs
Speaker 1: with Sophie. That was a little inconsiderate, especially because she's
Speaker 1: probably in some physical pain after her abortion. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: should have shared their drugs. Could have been nice. Speaking
Speaker 1: of physical pain though, um menstrual cramps representation, I'm actually
Speaker 1: way too much information and feel free to cut, but
Speaker 1: I'm actually feeling it right now. I mean, I've never
Speaker 1: seen I don't think a character experiencing menstrual pain in
Speaker 1: a movie ever, even though it's something that happens to
Speaker 1: many people very frequently, myself included. And I'm just like, damn,
Speaker 1: that's representation that we've needed to see and that we haven't.
Speaker 1: So it's a nice touch. It was another thing that
Speaker 1: was just like, I don't know, it makes me glad
Speaker 1: that Selin Siama is making the movie. Yes, yeah, because
Speaker 1: it's the kind of detail that wouldn't have been well,
Speaker 1: which is why even though I do understand, I do
Speaker 1: agree that the movie is kind of long, part of
Speaker 1: me is like, who would you cut? Oh? You know,
Speaker 1: because like there's so many things that I feel like
Speaker 1: aren't There's so many scenes that aren't like necessary, like
Speaker 1: quote unquote, but they they're so good. They add like
Speaker 1: I love the part where they're playing cards. Is it
Speaker 1: important really in the long run. No, but it's a
Speaker 1: great scene, you know, good, it's a vibe. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't think any like story needs to be cut.
Speaker 1: It's just like individual shots that go on for way
Speaker 1: too long. Walk faster, yeah, walk faster. Shave off some
Speaker 1: of the the shots that are too long. You can
Speaker 1: maintain the entire story, as is my my European side.
Speaker 1: But I love the long, lingering shots. I'm like, yes,
Speaker 1: have that is sex. I love it. Keep doing it again.
Speaker 1: I am very impatient. So it's it's my impatient American
Speaker 1: sensibilities that I'm just like, Okay, cut away to the
Speaker 1: next shot, please another Just shout out to the artist
Speaker 1: Eileen the mov Yes. Yes, is this the person who
Speaker 1: painted the painting? Yes, she's the person who's hands we
Speaker 1: see anytime, like any like drawing or painting is happening.
Speaker 1: So she's sort of like the artist stand in for
Speaker 1: millions character. So yeah, just shout out to her. Here
Speaker 1: we go. Ellendel Mayer got it. That's exactly what I said.
Speaker 1: I guess she was like on it sounds like she
Speaker 1: was on set pretty frequently. There was a really fun
Speaker 1: interview with Oh God, I'm gonna say her. You just
Speaker 1: taught me how to say her name, Chloe know me,
Speaker 1: merl me knowing me Merlan, where she was talking about
Speaker 1: how she was like technically painting during all those scenes,
Speaker 1: but the paintings were really ugly, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I was like, I want to see her paint things.
Speaker 1: She's like, I paint for fun. But yeah, definitely was
Speaker 1: not me painting. Paint things were not very good. That's
Speaker 1: so funny. It does look really effortless when someone else
Speaker 1: is already most of it. I could do that. I
Speaker 1: couldn't just cooking add some green. They're sure. So basically
Speaker 1: Ellen is James Cameron because he's the one whose hands
Speaker 1: we see drawing Rose in Titanic. It makes you think. Um.
Speaker 1: Another shout out for this movie being it won the
Speaker 1: Queer Palm at can and it was the first film
Speaker 1: directed by a woman to win that award, so that
Speaker 1: it's frustrating, but also that I'm glad it happened, but
Speaker 1: every year just like what the fuck? Like really any
Speaker 1: other thoughts, observations, et cetera about this movie. We covered
Speaker 1: so much. I wrote so many notes, but most of
Speaker 1: them are just like, oh oh. One last thing I'll
Speaker 1: mention is that this movie is really banking on the
Speaker 1: view were knowing the Greek myth and true again cannot
Speaker 1: say the name your curd is um. I had to
Speaker 1: look up that myth on Wikipedia and learn about what
Speaker 1: the story is from there, because I was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know this story. That was a little bit I get.
Speaker 1: Like Selanciama described it in an interview. She's like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's like a Netflix and Chill discussion but in the
Speaker 1: late eighteenth century. I'm like, sure, Seline, sure, I could
Speaker 1: see maybe maybe, But I was also like, um, this
Speaker 1: is this is a this is a discussion about art,
Speaker 1: and I know, I know it's like metaphorically significant, but
Speaker 1: I was like, mom, I'm gonna I'm gonna give myself
Speaker 1: a pass on this one. I do like that. I
Speaker 1: do like the symbolism of that moment, and it is true.
Speaker 1: I like that she framed it that way because it
Speaker 1: is funny that moment when they're all kind of reading
Speaker 1: to each other right there, that's kind of a funny thing.
Speaker 1: You have to read out loud because you can't just
Speaker 1: all watch a book together. It's not not a little
Speaker 1: different from Netflix and Chill for that reason. But I
Speaker 1: do love that moment where suffused like what, no, screw that,
Speaker 1: Like why don't they end up together? I hate it?
Speaker 1: It's just like so mad. Yeah, that scene, the moment
Speaker 1: where they keep having that repeated image of a Louise
Speaker 1: in the in the wedding dress and every time she
Speaker 1: looks back and it's it's a little on the nose,
Speaker 1: it's a little obvious, but it's also it's nice. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I liked it. It's if it's it makes
Speaker 1: for a nice through line. Yeah, yeah, anything else? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that was everything I had. Yeah, I think I
Speaker 1: think we covered everything. You know, we talked about so much.
Speaker 1: Page eight um beautiful. Yeah, it gets me at the
Speaker 1: end of this movie. That's like I was trying to
Speaker 1: not burst into tears, but you know, you can't not
Speaker 1: you literally cannot not it's hard. I just I want
Speaker 1: to quickly give a shout out to, speaking of page
Speaker 1: twenty eight, to that really great shot um where the
Speaker 1: composition of the shot where um Eloise is like naked, like, oh,
Speaker 1: you need a mirror, let me just prop it up
Speaker 1: against my puss um yep. That was so that way
Speaker 1: you can see yourself. This is Yeah, that shot reminded
Speaker 1: me of my own tumbler in college. I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: that would have That's like such a like that's that
Speaker 1: sounds reductive, but like I was like, that is such
Speaker 1: a tumbler shot that I was like, oh, if I
Speaker 1: was eighteen on Tumbler, I would have been reblogging the
Speaker 1: ship out of that. It's another one that's a little
Speaker 1: on the nose, but I don't like that. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna like, yeah, pretty fun. Yeah, sure, a lot of
Speaker 1: good shots. Yeah, shout out again to this in a photographer.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't think I really have anything
Speaker 1: else to say. I just I could talk about this
Speaker 1: movie forever. Well. Like we foreshadowed, the movie passes the
Speaker 1: Bechdel test a lot. Also another example, we haven't come
Speaker 1: upon many movies that passed the Veto Russo test, which
Speaker 1: examines representation of queer characters in cinema, but this one
Speaker 1: obviously passes. And as far as our nipple scale, our
Speaker 1: scale of zero to five nipples, based on how the
Speaker 1: movie fares. Looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens,
Speaker 1: I think I'll give it like four and a half nipples,
Speaker 1: taking a little bit off for it being another just
Speaker 1: kind of example in the cannon of white ladies, middle
Speaker 1: or upper class living in the past and the queer
Speaker 1: joy that they experience is quite fleeting. You know, more
Speaker 1: movies that aren't that please but that this movie is
Speaker 1: one of those examples, Like you know, it's it's still,
Speaker 1: it's fine. This is a beloved movie. It's very nice.
Speaker 1: I'll distribute my nipples to Selene Siama, Selene dion Um, Sophie.
Speaker 1: I want to get a nipple, you know, the romance
Speaker 1: gets a nipple. I'll give my half nipple two page. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I'll go four four and a half for
Speaker 1: this movie. It it discusses so much. I agree it
Speaker 1: does kind of fall into this trope, but I think
Speaker 1: on the least troubling side of the trope, where you know,
Speaker 1: we do have a queer writer director telling a queer story.
Speaker 1: I mean we we didn't talk about this, but Adele
Speaker 1: is also a queer woman. Well I guess we technically
Speaker 1: did talk about that. But um, I think that's kind
Speaker 1: of a rarity and a prestige work like this. Usually
Speaker 1: it's two straight wide actresses playing for characters, um and
Speaker 1: kind of making a big deal about it on the
Speaker 1: press tour and blah blah blah. It's it's conventions were
Speaker 1: familiar with unfortunately when and I yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: just like a beautiful love story. I like that room
Speaker 1: is made for discussion about things you wouldn't expect, Like
Speaker 1: there is like a discussion of class. There is like
Speaker 1: an abortion storyline that is a big deal, but it's
Speaker 1: not made like it's it's an abortion storyline told with
Speaker 1: authority and empathy, which and and not try g D
Speaker 1: porn were or and not weirdly pro life that normalizes abortion. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's just it's just a very thoughtfully told story. And
Speaker 1: I mean, Caitlin, yeah, I'm on board with with everything
Speaker 1: you said about the places where it it maybe isn't
Speaker 1: completely stellar, Uh, but it's a it's a pretty story.
Speaker 1: I like it. It made me cry, um, and I
Speaker 1: hope that you know it because it was such a huge,
Speaker 1: main mainstream success, especially for you know, an international movie,
Speaker 1: a queer movie, like on a number of levels. The
Speaker 1: fact that it got such a wide release in the US,
Speaker 1: I felick, is a really hopefully bodes well for queer
Speaker 1: cinema moving forward. So I'll give it. I'll give it
Speaker 1: four and a half. Why not. I'll give one to
Speaker 1: each of the three of the main trio, um, and
Speaker 1: I'll give the other nipple and a half to their shoes, um,
Speaker 1: which moved too slow for my tape. Yeah, maybe the
Speaker 1: nipple will help them speed up. I don't know, I
Speaker 1: know some slippery add some tread you know, Chloe, how
Speaker 1: about you? Yeah? I mean agreed with with everything said.
Speaker 1: There was one tiny piece that I missed because my
Speaker 1: connection went out for a second, So I hope I
Speaker 1: didn't miss too much. I'll just listen to it in
Speaker 1: the episode. But yeah, I think for me it's I'm
Speaker 1: also going to give it a four and a half. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, for all the reasons listed, it is really interesting. Um.
Speaker 1: You know when you said, yeah, it has such a
Speaker 1: wide release. I meant to bring this up and I forgot.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the interesting things to me about
Speaker 1: this movie and the reception at God is I had
Speaker 1: like straight friends who were like, yeah, so good, and
Speaker 1: I was like, why how you know this? You know,
Speaker 1: like I know because I'm gay. I think like I
Speaker 1: had such a big you know, it became such a
Speaker 1: smash hit that I had so many like straight guy
Speaker 1: friends that were like, yeah, I saw a battle Lesion
Speaker 1: Fils and they didn't say it like that, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it was really good. It's such a good movie and
Speaker 1: like you don't have to tell me, I know, and
Speaker 1: ali um of good movies. UM. But yeah, it is
Speaker 1: interesting that it had it got such a big reception,
Speaker 1: which is cool, and I do hope that's for telling more,
Speaker 1: for telling more, you know what I mean. I hope
Speaker 1: it leads to more. Um. But yeah, and then so
Speaker 1: I guess four and a half. So in terms of
Speaker 1: the nipples that I will distribute, UM, let's see, I'm
Speaker 1: going to give one to Eloise, one to Marianne, one
Speaker 1: to Sufie, one to the Midwife, portion Provider, doctor lady
Speaker 1: um whatever her official title is. UM. I think I
Speaker 1: think you nailed it. Yeah, you options then and then
Speaker 1: let's see, I've got a half I've got a half
Speaker 1: nipple left. Um, I'm gonna give it to Lisaying off screen,
Speaker 1: just waiting any come in as the Milanese gentleman, just professional. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's like, you don't even you know, you're sure, I'm
Speaker 1: ready if you want. Um. So, his off screen presence
Speaker 1: is really felt in this film, I think, um and
Speaker 1: I want to reward him for obviously. Yeah, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for for being here, Chloe. Thank you for
Speaker 1: for covering this movie with us. I'm very happy that
Speaker 1: we covered it and also that we had some French
Speaker 1: perspective on the on the story. Yeah we we. I
Speaker 1: mean we're clearly experts, but it was nice of you
Speaker 1: to come. Yeah, no, thank you so much. No, it's
Speaker 1: my pleasure. Um No, I'm happy to have lent my
Speaker 1: French build. I can do that, It's fine. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled. I obviously I'm a fan a matron
Speaker 1: even you could say wink wink, um, I appreciate that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: anybody wants to be a matron. It's it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Um So yeah, I'm I'm really thrilled. And this was
Speaker 1: really awesome movie to talk about. So thanks so much
Speaker 1: for having me, thank you for being here, and thank
Speaker 1: you for plugging our matron. And what you should also
Speaker 1: do is plug your own things, your social media, et cetera. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's see. I. Um, I'm on Twitter. My Twitter is
Speaker 1: just my name at Chloe kunya c h l O
Speaker 1: E c U n h A. I'm I'm pretty funny.
Speaker 1: I think I try to be. Uh. I I post
Speaker 1: a lot of jokes and then I'll also like retweet
Speaker 1: like abolitionist things. I don't know. It's like a weird
Speaker 1: medley of like here my politics also jokes. Um. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's basically what I what I do. UM can relate
Speaker 1: on Twitter? Yeah, um and uh and then other projects
Speaker 1: and things. Um. Well I am. I am actually in
Speaker 1: a lesbian vampire movie. Yes, please tell us about it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's called Blood of the Tributes. It's very specifically like
Speaker 1: an homage slash moderny telling of like art house euro
Speaker 1: lesbian vampire movies from the sixties and seventies, so it's
Speaker 1: very particular. It's definitely not for everybody, but it's a
Speaker 1: it's an interesting film. Um. Speaking of nudity, a lot
Speaker 1: of nudity in there. Some of it is mine. Just
Speaker 1: the heads up. Try to tell people before they watch it,
Speaker 1: because sometimes I'll have friends who are like, hey, I
Speaker 1: watched it. You're naked. I'm like, I'm so sorry. I'm French.
Speaker 1: I don't care, um, but some people do, which is
Speaker 1: why I try to warn them. There's a lot, actually
Speaker 1: a lot of equal opportunity nudity. There's some, there's some
Speaker 1: there's some penises. Okay, yeah, so there's a lot going
Speaker 1: on there. I don't I'm talking too much about that,
Speaker 1: but it's full uh on YouTube, And so it used
Speaker 1: to be on Amazon. Uh. And then Amazon is a
Speaker 1: terrible company, and like everything, they made things worse for
Speaker 1: indie filmmakers and basically pushed a lot of people out
Speaker 1: of the platform by basically being like, oh, remember that
Speaker 1: money you were getting, It turns out we don't want
Speaker 1: to give it to you anymore. Um. That's a very
Speaker 1: simplification of what happened. But yeah, and now it's on YouTube,
Speaker 1: so anybody can just watch it, um well link to it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm um also do some acting for a podcast
Speaker 1: called the Pannumbra Podcast, which is uh like a queer
Speaker 1: neo noir sci fi thing. Um, it's it's cool. It's
Speaker 1: a very cool little show. And they're there are a
Speaker 1: lot of like a lot of a lot of cute
Speaker 1: little gay teen fans there. They're all like on Tumbler
Speaker 1: and they're so cute and are so supportive. They write
Speaker 1: fan fiction. You've made it, you know, and there's fan
Speaker 1: art and someone it's really good. Um, but you don't
Speaker 1: have to be a teen gay to appreciate it. I
Speaker 1: think it's a fun show that's just usually who the
Speaker 1: who the who it appeals to at the moment, I
Speaker 1: believe sounds great and uh yeah, oh and I guess
Speaker 1: I could plug I do also how to do a
Speaker 1: virtual comedy show called Queer Comedy Hour. That's the fourth
Speaker 1: Saturday of the month at seven pm at the two
Speaker 1: mb Twitter channel. I'm plugging too many things, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's if you see some stand up from some gays.
Speaker 1: Check that out. That's fun too, amazing. Thanks again for
Speaker 1: being here. Yeah, and uh, while you're at it, you
Speaker 1: can sign up for our Patreon ak Matreon as well
Speaker 1: at patreon dot com, slash backtel Cast. You can check
Speaker 1: us out on all of the major platforms Twitter, Instagram,
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast go. It's where you get updates, um anything
Speaker 1: else are t public, dot com, slash. The Bechtel Cast
Speaker 1: is where you can get your merch. That's it, and
Speaker 1: I guess uh do by bye bye