Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. Stephane never told your production.
Speaker 1: I heart radio, So Savantha, I know we've discussed, like
Speaker 1: if we did a kind of watch through podcast or
Speaker 1: reaction podcast. Sex in the City is the idea that
Speaker 1: we floated, Yes, because I think it is chock full
Speaker 1: of so many current events that are no longer relevant
Speaker 1: and trying to be edgy at that point in time,
Speaker 1: and what we thought was a revelation when it came
Speaker 1: to women's sexuality and he's looking back on and being like,
Speaker 1: oh God, that's that was bad. That was real bad
Speaker 1: versus also just like trying to understand what we thought
Speaker 1: sex was. And I feel like Sex in the City
Speaker 1: actually pushed the narrative of trying to figure that out
Speaker 1: for ourselves as well us even though it wasn't real life.
Speaker 1: The whole idea of commodity and having women actually like
Speaker 1: women was kind of new, and having single women being
Speaker 1: single for so long, even if one of the aspects
Speaker 1: of it was they were trying so hard to find someone,
Speaker 1: it still was kind of like a of fresh like
Speaker 1: perspective instead of just being married family sitcom, watch the
Speaker 1: dad do something dumb in the story. So Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's just a really good idea because you have
Speaker 1: so many dynamics to that, with each character fulfilling some
Speaker 1: type of you know, as we had the writer tells,
Speaker 1: you know, it kind of fulfills every part of you,
Speaker 1: like they have different personality of parts. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's talk about this. I think it's wonderful idea. I'm
Speaker 1: on board. I'm on board. I think we should do
Speaker 1: it too. I have refrained from watching it in case
Speaker 1: we do this because I want to be fresh. I
Speaker 1: want to I think it's a good that you'll you
Speaker 1: have the experience and outcome from completely never have seen it.
Speaker 1: And also like not prude is definitely not the right word,
Speaker 1: but I do get like nice naive, I get a clustered. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't consume a lot of like content about romance
Speaker 1: or sex or anything like that, so uh, people do
Speaker 1: usually get a chuckle out of how flustered. Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it'd be hilarious yes for that, but also
Speaker 1: just again the unrealistic things. It almost become comical because
Speaker 1: you're like, that's not how that works. You just kind
Speaker 1: of sit there and looking like who thought this was
Speaker 1: a good idea? And of course within that you have
Speaker 1: the several unrealistic expectations of relationships in general, and of
Speaker 1: course how rich these women are, like who lives in
Speaker 1: this world? Were not us. But I think it's really
Speaker 1: funny because it is it's kind of also being able
Speaker 1: to have that comic relief. But I also have been
Speaker 1: feeding you the tidbits to be like, oh, you talked
Speaker 1: about this, let me tell you how it relates this
Speaker 1: experts which is awesome. Really, how does sex in the
Speaker 1: City relate to X y Z random thing I just said,
Speaker 1: give me a minute, it's amazing. I can't think of
Speaker 1: what I would do. I'll watch like reaction thing of
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get Lauren over on the other podcast.
Speaker 1: I do savor to do one of the Star Wars
Speaker 1: holiday special with me because I think it would be hilarious.
Speaker 1: I'll have to think on that. But I want to
Speaker 1: ask you this because yes, it is Pride Month as
Speaker 1: we're recording this, and we wanted to bring back our
Speaker 1: two partner on bisexuality that we did with these amazing
Speaker 1: guests that we're just the most wonderful and talented people
Speaker 1: that we could have talked to you about this and
Speaker 1: often when guests come on, we want to be their
Speaker 1: friends after and we understand that people are busy and
Speaker 1: maybe don't want podcasters podcast friends latching onto them. But
Speaker 1: Tedia on these episodes, she talked about her Buffy Reaction
Speaker 1: Buffy the Van Personal Reaction podcast, and I was like,
Speaker 1: this is I want to be for him? So yes, phenomenal.
Speaker 1: She's actually right now doing some really great bay coups
Speaker 1: as she calls them. So if you're not following her
Speaker 1: on Twitter, you really should because it's quite phenomenal and
Speaker 1: and so yes, I love that, so so so so much.
Speaker 1: Um So, please enjoy part two of this classic episode
Speaker 1: on bisexuality. Hey this Danny cancel At and welcome to
Speaker 1: stuff I've never told your protection of I hire adios,
Speaker 1: how stuff warts. Today we are bringing to you are
Speaker 1: part two for episode on bisexuality and for the trigger
Speaker 1: warning of the episode, um sexual assault, soicidality, mental health issues,
Speaker 1: and domestic violence. Also, we strongly encourage you to listen
Speaker 1: to part one before listening to this one because part
Speaker 1: one gives a lot of baseline definitions and introduction to
Speaker 1: our interviewees. Yes, they they introduced themselves far better and
Speaker 1: in that episode. UM Yeah, just a lot of terms
Speaker 1: will be using. We're explained in that episode. UM. And
Speaker 1: we also went into the negative impact of birature and
Speaker 1: by negativity and that and before we get into um
Speaker 1: all of our our guests interviews, we did want to
Speaker 1: touch on the media for a second. When it comes
Speaker 1: to bisexuality. There are several famous examples of celebrities, um
Speaker 1: who are bisexual, Angelina Jolie and A Paquin, Kara de
Speaker 1: Levine and Cumming, Abby Jacobson, Aus Walker and kind of
Speaker 1: Billy Joe Arstrong, Billy Joe Arstrong, My my boy, My
Speaker 1: Homeboy had a huge correct son for years. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: Evan Rachel Wood, Drew Barrymore, Gina Rodriguez, Lady Gaga Rex
Speaker 1: and Gay Tessa Thompson, lots more. There are some famous
Speaker 1: fictional examples, and right now the big one is Rosa
Speaker 1: Diaz on Brooklyn nine nine, Callie Torres on Gray's Anatomy.
Speaker 1: There's Cat on Madame Secretary, Petro Solano on Jane the Virgin,
Speaker 1: David Rose on Ship's Creek, Grace Troy on Black Lightning,
Speaker 1: Nova Board A Lawn on Queen Sugar, Darryl White Feather
Speaker 1: on Crazy ex girlfriend who announced his bisexuality via song
Speaker 1: or yes of course, Um, Sarah Lance and Constantine on
Speaker 1: Legends of Tomorrow, Nami and dave On on Grown Ish.
Speaker 1: I will say I haven't seen all of these. I
Speaker 1: cannot say I was gonna say, I think I've seen
Speaker 1: like two or three of all of these. Yes, I
Speaker 1: cannot say they're good representations UM. And I know that
Speaker 1: Constantine in particular, I can't say for sure if it's
Speaker 1: ever been like said definitively UM. But those are examples
Speaker 1: I found people gave online. UM. One thing worth noting
Speaker 1: is there's far less men than women. Um, you could
Speaker 1: just help out the list. Yes, yes, And that is
Speaker 1: something that UM was commented on a lot when I
Speaker 1: was looking into this, looking into news outlets, the mainstream
Speaker 1: ones rarely right about bisexuality. For instance, in the New
Speaker 1: York Times tweeted bisexual seven times and gay over one hundred.
Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal has tweeted it twice and does
Speaker 1: not appear to have any stories with by our bisexual
Speaker 1: in the headline. And I got to thinking about some tropes,
Speaker 1: some stereotypes I've seen in our media, because for a
Speaker 1: long time bisexuality has kind of been a punchline in
Speaker 1: our entertainment. Um Carrie Bradshaw's sex in the City line
Speaker 1: that it's just a layover on the way to gaytown.
Speaker 1: For instance, are Liz Lemon on Dirty Rock when she
Speaker 1: quips that it was just something invented in the nineties
Speaker 1: to sell hair products, or the l words assess meant
Speaker 1: that it is quote just gross um or bisexual character
Speaker 1: as crazy ind quotes are evil, like Frank Underwood on
Speaker 1: House of Cards, Lady Godga's character Elizabeth on American Horror Story,
Speaker 1: big examples of that, and this lack of good representation
Speaker 1: has consequences that shapes how we see bisexual people and
Speaker 1: how bisexual people see themselves. We spoke to our panel
Speaker 1: of experts Dr Tangela Roberts, Dr Tanya Israel, Diane Adams,
Speaker 1: and Harn Greensmith, all of whom were read are red
Speaker 1: and activists in the bisexual community. Here's Tangela and Tanya.
Speaker 1: I think that um, maybe like the media just can't
Speaker 1: get it right because there's there's a lot of like
Speaker 1: mystery what is the bisexual and a lot of just
Speaker 1: what people talk about. Is this media representation of you know,
Speaker 1: either the fifth woman who the un the corn and
Speaker 1: she gets invited to like have a threesome with a couple,
Speaker 1: or no, that's about it. Yeah yeah, I was going
Speaker 1: to say the evil bisexual, right, yeah, yeah, there's always
Speaker 1: the evil bisexual who's like, you know, running rampant and
Speaker 1: queer communities and like breaking lesbians hearts. Or but then
Speaker 1: at the same time, you have like the media image
Speaker 1: of like the lesbian who wants to like quote unquote
Speaker 1: term straight women. I'm like, well, it couldn't be that
Speaker 1: those straight women are actually buy any that ma. But
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk a little bit about internalized stigma, because
Speaker 1: what happens for people is that there's all these negative
Speaker 1: messages out there about uh, sexual orientation. I mean there's
Speaker 1: negative messages out there about all kinds of things. So
Speaker 1: you know, if if you're not a sexual minority person,
Speaker 1: you can think about things that you've heard, like let's
Speaker 1: say you're um an ethnic minority person, you can think
Speaker 1: of things that you've heard a out your ethnic groups. UM,
Speaker 1: if you're a person with a disability, you can think about,
Speaker 1: like what did you hear about people with disabilities? And
Speaker 1: and the problem with all of those messages being out
Speaker 1: there in the world is if they get transmitted through
Speaker 1: so many different ways, through media representations and through what
Speaker 1: you learn in school, and what you hear from your
Speaker 1: faith leaders, and what your parents tell you or what
Speaker 1: your parents are silent about and avoid telling you, and
Speaker 1: what your peers say, or what your fears ease you
Speaker 1: about or bully other people about. Like, these messages get
Speaker 1: communicated in so many different ways, and the problem is,
Speaker 1: then we can start to believe those things about ourselves.
Speaker 1: Like even if on some level we're like, well, I
Speaker 1: don't think that's true, there may be some level, either
Speaker 1: conscious or unconscious, that we start to believe those things.
Speaker 1: So when we internalize those negative messages from outside, it
Speaker 1: can really eat away at our help UM. And we
Speaker 1: can see that, like we know that UM internalized stigma
Speaker 1: for bisexual people is associated with UM negative mental health outcomes,
Speaker 1: and so we can see that the the more people
Speaker 1: believe those things, those negative things about the group that
Speaker 1: they belong to UM, then then they're going to UM,
Speaker 1: you know, have more struggles with their mental health. The
Speaker 1: good news is, actually this is really exciting. I have
Speaker 1: to tell you this that my research team created this
Speaker 1: online intervention. So these online activities that interactive activities thinks
Speaker 1: about half an hour to do them, and they can
Speaker 1: actually decrease internalized stigma. So or if you you know,
Speaker 1: if you compare people who do these activities people who
Speaker 1: get other kinds of activities, like they've got lower internalized
Speaker 1: stigma in half an hour, And I'm like, wow, this
Speaker 1: is super excited because, um you know, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: a small difference that it makes, but it's encouraging to
Speaker 1: think that there are things that we can do that
Speaker 1: can actually change that for people. Um uh. And we
Speaker 1: can help people like to support their resilience in the
Speaker 1: face of all of these negative messages that they get
Speaker 1: exposed to. So I'm really excited about that. So we
Speaker 1: have some more for you listeners, but first we have
Speaker 1: a quick break from a word from our sponsor, and
Speaker 1: we're back. Thank you sponsor. One thing what we are
Speaker 1: curious about was the personal experiences of our interviewees. Then
Speaker 1: they were gracious enough to oblige. I learned amazing and
Speaker 1: gradifool about Nisa, one of my Grasstol colleagues, so that
Speaker 1: at some point in in certain field, probably not so
Speaker 1: much just like chemistry and because they because there's like
Speaker 1: so much amazing things that you can do. But more
Speaker 1: so with like the social sciences, you tend to do
Speaker 1: a lot of research. You're like, I'm doing research all
Speaker 1: myself because this is experience that I have and I
Speaker 1: want to feel other people have it UM. And that's
Speaker 1: sort of with my introduction into UM doing by research
Speaker 1: and it expanded a little bit. But some of my
Speaker 1: personal experiences, Oh my gosh, oh my god. I've stated
Speaker 1: queer women who have said that they were afraid I
Speaker 1: was going to leave them for as this man UM,
Speaker 1: which usually like to me saying that it really doesn't
Speaker 1: matter who I leave you for, because it's cost you.
Speaker 1: We asked about their coming out stories. Oh yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's feel like so stereotypical. It was when I was
Speaker 1: in college. It I like, I almost like just hate
Speaker 1: saying it because like everyone's like, oh you, everyone explores
Speaker 1: her sexual orientation in college, sure, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: do something different, but no, it was when I was
Speaker 1: in college. I was at a at a private Catholic
Speaker 1: school with like single single sex storm and I fell
Speaker 1: in love with my roommate at the time, and that
Speaker 1: sort of put me in like a just mental tales.
Speaker 1: Then I was like, wait, what is this? Like I
Speaker 1: like her, but I like her more than a friend.
Speaker 1: I like her like I want to always be around her.
Speaker 1: I like her like I have like boyfriends in the past. Uh,
Speaker 1: this was interesting, And I remember, I think, like my
Speaker 1: confusion then wasn't wasn't really like, oh, I'm confused about
Speaker 1: this orientation. It was like, oh, but wait, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think leslian fits for me, don't
Speaker 1: think lesbian is ever fit for me. And I actually
Speaker 1: remember like running out of the dorm room into like
Speaker 1: the quad area, and I was like, yeah, I know
Speaker 1: that that that guy that I saw that works in
Speaker 1: the library. He's so hot, got it? Maybe I'm by
Speaker 1: And that's sort of what I'm just gonna have to
Speaker 1: stick with because yeah, I just sort of like what
Speaker 1: I like and it comes in different packages and okay,
Speaker 1: sure that's fine. Um, So it wasn't really like like
Speaker 1: that tremental I guess for me. But I mean I
Speaker 1: did have some pretty negative experiences with some family members,
Speaker 1: and that's it's always a process coming up the family,
Speaker 1: like they have to sort of go through their shock
Speaker 1: and grief and um hopefully eventually acceptain. But that's always
Speaker 1: that process. But I've been lucky enough to um have
Speaker 1: really really great friends honestly, like I have the best
Speaker 1: group of people that I can call like my assumed
Speaker 1: family in the world. UM. And at a time, I
Speaker 1: was in college, and so I was lucky enough to
Speaker 1: sort of use my growing research interests as a way
Speaker 1: to explore more about sexual orientation. So I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think i'm by let me write, let me like
Speaker 1: do some research about this and see if I can
Speaker 1: like do a presentation on bisexuality and what if my classes?
Speaker 1: Can I get away with that? Sure? Why not? It's college. Well,
Speaker 1: the first thing I would say is, I, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think I was bisexual when I was growing up,
Speaker 1: like when I was in high school and college. Like
Speaker 1: I don't think that I came out when I was
Speaker 1: twenty five. I think I actually like became bisexual in
Speaker 1: a way. Um And and so I just want to
Speaker 1: sort of acknowledge that there can be fluidity in that also.
Speaker 1: But I'm also going to say this super clearly, the
Speaker 1: fact that people's sexual orientation can see doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: can change it. You know, doesn't mean that you can
Speaker 1: like have a treatment or something that's going to change
Speaker 1: your sexual orientation. So there's a difference between like understanding
Speaker 1: fluidity and and trying to change sexual orientation. I know
Speaker 1: y'all know that, but I'm so bad, very yeah, so
Speaker 1: so so. So the first thing that changed was just
Speaker 1: sort of coming into my understanding of myself as bisexual,
Speaker 1: and um, for me, it started out a more cognitive
Speaker 1: process I think that it does for other people. Like
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I don't think I'm a I
Speaker 1: don't think I'm a zero on the Kinsey scale. I'm
Speaker 1: probably more like a one or two. So so then
Speaker 1: does it make sense for me to identify as heterosexual?
Speaker 1: And then I went, okay, what do identify it? So
Speaker 1: it tells me a lot to kind of get to bisexual.
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you the thing that where where I
Speaker 1: really was like oh yes, I'm bisexual was and this
Speaker 1: is this is a story about like the importance of
Speaker 1: visibility and community because I went to this conference. It
Speaker 1: was the Association for Women in Psychology Conference, and it's
Speaker 1: just feminist psychology conference, and there's a caucus on bisexuality
Speaker 1: and sexual diversity there. So I was like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go to that. Yeah, but like that's the moment
Speaker 1: where I felt like, Okay, I can fully embrace this
Speaker 1: identity and so so I'm just gonna say that that's
Speaker 1: something important is for people to be exposed to people
Speaker 1: who are like them, who are bisexual, because I'm not
Speaker 1: like all bisexual people. There's an awful lot of bisexual
Speaker 1: people out there and so might not be a fit,
Speaker 1: but finding those those specific groups, so that was really
Speaker 1: exciting that I was like, yay. And then I I
Speaker 1: wrote some I did a presentation and I wrote some
Speaker 1: personal narrative stuff about being biracial and bisexual and so
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of put that out there. Um.
Speaker 1: But then it was so it was a staient part
Speaker 1: of my identity, but it wasn't necessarily like the only
Speaker 1: thing going on. I felt like I was, you know,
Speaker 1: part of a broader LGBTQ community. Um. And I would
Speaker 1: always say, you know, people would be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's great to have all these lesbians together, and I
Speaker 1: would say, am bisexuals. You know. So I was always
Speaker 1: like speaking up about that, but it wasn't it was
Speaker 1: really um when I did the Ted talk, and then
Speaker 1: you know all of the stuff that's come after that,
Speaker 1: that it's become like such a salient part of my
Speaker 1: identity and so you know, so I would say that
Speaker 1: the thing that's changed most is probably the salience of
Speaker 1: it um for my life. I will also say, because
Speaker 1: I was teaching this class on bisexuality, um I I
Speaker 1: dressed like the bisexual flag for each class. Here's Diana's story.
Speaker 1: I had some struggles with with my coming out journey,
Speaker 1: particularly because I think that people perceive by women, particularly feminine,
Speaker 1: by women like me um as you know, slutty, or
Speaker 1: as sexually promiscuous or is just interested in having freesomes,
Speaker 1: and so then people project that story onto you, and
Speaker 1: that's really you know, too much information, too personal for
Speaker 1: being openly by, for instance, in the workplace or with
Speaker 1: your family, if that's the way people are perceiving what
Speaker 1: by means. And so I really dealt with that. Um.
Speaker 1: Even at my first job as a lawyer, they circulated
Speaker 1: our resumes, which included my bisexuality activism as a law student,
Speaker 1: and our pictures and the time I was very blond
Speaker 1: and feminine looking, and they decided on the basis of
Speaker 1: the fact that I was basically a pretty feminine girl
Speaker 1: and that I was bisexual, that I shouldn't have any
Speaker 1: male supervisors because I was probably a risk for getting
Speaker 1: involved with one of my male supervisors because bisexual women,
Speaker 1: you know, must be sexually available, which is absolutely appalling.
Speaker 1: And this was a law firm in New York City, Um,
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago. This was not so long ago, and
Speaker 1: that is still happening. That kind of experience, um, of
Speaker 1: being over sexualized and stereotyped in that way. So I
Speaker 1: feel like you deal with a lot of that from
Speaker 1: the straight world and then in the lgbt Q world.
Speaker 1: At the same time, I was entering queer spaces and
Speaker 1: was perceived as not queer enough. And at the time
Speaker 1: the movie Legally Blonde had come out, and um, some
Speaker 1: of the lesbians and the lgbt Q group were teasing
Speaker 1: me and would like leave me pink fluffy things and
Speaker 1: call me legally blonde, because um, they also stereotyped me
Speaker 1: because I was feminine and I didn't wasn't queer enough
Speaker 1: for them, um, And so I got a lot of
Speaker 1: hostility from both sides, and even being openly bisexual. UM.
Speaker 1: As a student activist with my law school professors and
Speaker 1: with my deans. I was then wondering, given those experiences,
Speaker 1: oh God, is my dean thinking about me having a freesome?
Speaker 1: Because that's what people think of when they think of bisexual.
Speaker 1: And so I'm very deeply involved in the l g
Speaker 1: B t q I community. But then I'm meeting colleagues
Speaker 1: who are often in same sex relationships, and I have
Speaker 1: a husband, and so I still have to come out,
Speaker 1: and I still see raised eyebrows and surprise looks that
Speaker 1: I'm very serious about this kind of activism and this
Speaker 1: kind of community, and yet I'm in a different sex partnership.
Speaker 1: So I'm still regularly having to come out and still
Speaker 1: dealing with that and having to sometimes wonder whether people
Speaker 1: are going to think of me differently or think of
Speaker 1: me as less of a part of the community. I
Speaker 1: have entered into a marriage with a bisexual man, and
Speaker 1: we went on vacation to Morocco and to Turkey, uh
Speaker 1: in the past year, and those are places where if
Speaker 1: I had happened to end up with a same sex
Speaker 1: um spouse, it would not be safe for me to
Speaker 1: go to the places that I went to, and that
Speaker 1: is not fair and I have mixed feelings about that,
Speaker 1: and part of the way that I use those privileges
Speaker 1: because I really do feel like now I have privileged
Speaker 1: is I'm not being actively stigmatized on My marriage is
Speaker 1: not at risk, my parenting status is not at risk,
Speaker 1: I'm not at risk of violence. For traveling, I can
Speaker 1: go undercover and pass as just a white, different sex couple. UM.
Speaker 1: I feel an extra responsibility to the LGBTQ community, and
Speaker 1: it's actually made me go deeper into my activism because
Speaker 1: I feel like I have the privilege to not have
Speaker 1: this be deeply traumatic on a day to day basis
Speaker 1: in terms of my own parenting status. And so for example,
Speaker 1: I work really actively to make sure that UM same
Speaker 1: sex couples and other lgbt Q families can maintain their
Speaker 1: parenting status because right now within the US and in Europe,
Speaker 1: it's still very common to same sex couples aren't able
Speaker 1: to get their parenting status. It is still completely legitimate
Speaker 1: and legal in much of the United States and Europe
Speaker 1: to discriminate in terms of foster care and adoption, to
Speaker 1: not evil to not be able to adopt a child,
Speaker 1: to many adoption agencies UM, and to not feel safe
Speaker 1: traveling in many places, and to not be able to
Speaker 1: get your parenting status record nized, which can really have
Speaker 1: devastating consequences if non biological parents are then excluded from
Speaker 1: hospital rooms when their kids are injured in the foreign countries,
Speaker 1: for example, because they're not recognized as a parent. UM.
Speaker 1: So I feel really, I feel really committed um to
Speaker 1: being there as an LGBTQ activist and feel um the
Speaker 1: the deep inspiration to claim this as part of my
Speaker 1: identity because it's an important part of myself. Even though
Speaker 1: I happened to marry a man um and to them
Speaker 1: use that um situation of greater relative comfort, which isn't
Speaker 1: fair to go back and support the rest of my
Speaker 1: LGBTQ community. And here's van I'll tell um one personal
Speaker 1: story about facing discrimination from the my my supportive communities. UM.
Speaker 1: About uh maybe seventy seven years ago, I was working
Speaker 1: in a large organizational, large lgbt organization, and I marched
Speaker 1: in Pride with my partner, who was a person of
Speaker 1: a different gender than me, a long term partner. We've
Speaker 1: been together now for twelve years, and he and I
Speaker 1: were super excited to march and pride there was like
Speaker 1: a bedazzling shirt party beforehand, and we like cut our
Speaker 1: shirts up and bedazzled them with like the Beatles metal
Speaker 1: like weird triangle pyramid things. Um we had like ace
Speaker 1: paint on and like bandana's and we were carrying one
Speaker 1: end of like the balloon arch, the rainbow balloon arch,
Speaker 1: and like we had fans were like handing up stickers,
Speaker 1: and he and I were holding hands the whole time
Speaker 1: and like smooching because everyone is holding hands and smooching,
Speaker 1: And we had a really fabulous time. And then we
Speaker 1: returned the balloon arch back to the main office of
Speaker 1: the organization and we were riding down from the offices
Speaker 1: to the bottom of the building, me, my partner, and
Speaker 1: then another of my coworkers, male Gates, who um I
Speaker 1: had worked with my entire internship there all summer and
Speaker 1: um so he knew me quite well and he had
Speaker 1: been there the entire time at the parade, and he said, hey, heron, um,
Speaker 1: I have someone I've loved to hook you up with.
Speaker 1: Can I give you her number? And I said, oh,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. You know, uh, my partner and
Speaker 1: I are actually a monogamist. Thank you, And for my
Speaker 1: monogamist right now. And he said, um, oh, who's your partner?
Speaker 1: And I looked down at mine and my partner's hims
Speaker 1: be helped together. And then I look up at my
Speaker 1: partner and I point to him and I'm like this
Speaker 1: person that partners like hi, And the man turned around
Speaker 1: in the elevator and faced the wall. I think one
Speaker 1: of the reasons I tell that stories because it is
Speaker 1: a really good illustration of bias and kind of a
Speaker 1: funny way. Um. But there's another story that I don't
Speaker 1: actually tell very frequently. Um, that really impacted my ability
Speaker 1: to do my job and to feel safe. It wasn't
Speaker 1: another organization. And I was in the car with my
Speaker 1: immediate supervisor and we were in the car for a
Speaker 1: long journey a couple of hours, and halfway through she
Speaker 1: turned to me out of the blue and she said, Karen,
Speaker 1: have you ever been in a long term relationship with
Speaker 1: a woman? And I felt cold all over and I
Speaker 1: knew that there was no right answer to this question.
Speaker 1: There were only wrong answers to this question. Yeah, as
Speaker 1: I said yes, she would make me define long term.
Speaker 1: If I said no, she would essentially use that as
Speaker 1: justification to herself two dismissed my queerness to dismiss me
Speaker 1: being part of her community. If I didn't say anything,
Speaker 1: I would be not answering my boss direct question to me,
Speaker 1: and it was clear that she I thought this was
Speaker 1: an appropriate question to ask an employee. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: we were both attorneys. We were headed to a hearing,
Speaker 1: and this is what started the day for me, demanding
Speaker 1: that I justify my identification as a queer person. What
Speaker 1: was your response and what was her response? Does it
Speaker 1: matter to you what my response was? Actually, I think
Speaker 1: the reason I asked is because for so many people,
Speaker 1: what do you do in those situations? Like I cannot
Speaker 1: imagine being pigeonholed into that situation? And for a woman
Speaker 1: or sorry, a person like you who survived and continue
Speaker 1: to tell that story as something that has impacted you
Speaker 1: and will probably impact you obviously does for a long
Speaker 1: if not forever. I think that question came because like,
Speaker 1: what did you do? What can you do? What did
Speaker 1: you do? I think that's my thought and just wondering
Speaker 1: like the audacity, Yeah, yeah, I think I want to
Speaker 1: plushed a little bit and not tell you because I
Speaker 1: I'm going to use this as like a little opportunity to, like,
Speaker 1: you know, let maybe you and some listeners be like
Speaker 1: a little uncomfortable with not knowing, because it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: That's the truth about that question is the answer isn't relevant.
Speaker 1: You know, if someone had never had any relationship with
Speaker 1: anyone and identified as straight, we're gay, no one would
Speaker 1: ever question their sexual orientation. But for some reason, bi
Speaker 1: sexuality validity is predicated upon someone sexual contact with people
Speaker 1: and the quantity and the quality and the duration, and
Speaker 1: for some reason, our sexual orientation is the only sexual
Speaker 1: orientation subjected to that level of scrutiny and analysis. Mhm
Speaker 1: mm hmmm. Sorry, I'm taking it all in, take it in.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of emotions, like tears in my eyes
Speaker 1: right now. I'm not gonna lie. So obviously we got
Speaker 1: a little emotional and we wanted to know how to
Speaker 1: be better allies. Obviously, as someone who misunderstood and did
Speaker 1: not quite see the depth of why this is so dangerous,
Speaker 1: misrepresenting bisexual the terms why it was so dangerous, I
Speaker 1: definitely had to ask, how do I become a better ally?
Speaker 1: How do I make sure that this does not happen
Speaker 1: in my circle or those around me, or my influencing UM.
Speaker 1: And as you can hear, there's a moment of intensity
Speaker 1: with Hearn and it was really uncomfortable. But as uncomfortable
Speaker 1: as it was, her point was amazing, the fact that
Speaker 1: this is how she felt, this is how uncomfortable she
Speaker 1: was as well. And it was like, wow, you know what,
Speaker 1: I really appreciate this moment, even though again I was
Speaker 1: super uncomfortable. We all kind of stopped and I looked around.
Speaker 1: I was like, what's happening. But it was so necessary
Speaker 1: and it was so important that she was able to
Speaker 1: say that we, Like I said, funding is I mean,
Speaker 1: funding is definitely UM at the source of a lot
Speaker 1: of social issues, right. UM. So if you're looking at
Speaker 1: UM and I don't have I don't have the numbers
Speaker 1: off hand, UM, but if there's a few articles that
Speaker 1: have showed like the amount of UM federal on both
Speaker 1: federal and both community funds UM to LGBT organizations, and
Speaker 1: if you're breaking them down by identity bisexual people, although
Speaker 1: statistically there they're most people who identify as quote of
Speaker 1: LGBT identifies by LGB look at sexual orientation identifies bisexuals,
Speaker 1: there's more people who identify it's bisexual than there are
Speaker 1: people who identify as leads beinging gay. But we have
Speaker 1: the numbers in terms of like, you know, we got
Speaker 1: like a whole bipopte over here, but we're not getting
Speaker 1: the funding for that. So even though there is a
Speaker 1: ton of people who identify as bisexual, that isn't represented
Speaker 1: in the funding for um by programming, for bisexual awareness,
Speaker 1: for health disparities research, for any other types of research.
Speaker 1: So it's it's in an interesting place where you have
Speaker 1: the bodies, but you don't have the money to support
Speaker 1: those bodies. Recently, actually, I saw an article going around
Speaker 1: social media that said the a large number of Black
Speaker 1: women identify as bisexual, and I was like, du like, seriously,
Speaker 1: we're just not talking about this um And so again,
Speaker 1: we have the numbers, we know that there's a ton
Speaker 1: of black women who identified bisexual, but I haven't seen
Speaker 1: any type of resources or UM research or sort of
Speaker 1: health advocacy or any sort of social attitude specifically for
Speaker 1: black by women. But we know the numbers are there,
Speaker 1: But why aren't we sort of supporting that when we
Speaker 1: have we have the data that shows we have the
Speaker 1: people everything in research. It's like, you know, if you have.
Speaker 1: If you have the people, then you know you can
Speaker 1: do the studies and you can, you can, you should
Speaker 1: be able to get the funding. And it's we're not.
Speaker 1: We're not getting that. We have a lot of people,
Speaker 1: but we don't have money to support those people. And
Speaker 1: that support to just look at look like funding, UM.
Speaker 1: I mean bisexual organizations like UM, buy net USA, like
Speaker 1: the New York Area Bisexual Network like BRC UM offering
Speaker 1: more funding so they can do more community work. UM
Speaker 1: having more research funding. I mean by person the research
Speaker 1: and bi sexuals. I would I would love to be
Speaker 1: able to apply for like a by specific like federal grant.
Speaker 1: But that'd be amazing UM. And that's not And it's
Speaker 1: not just in like, oh I want that for me,
Speaker 1: because I'm not. It's not for me. I'm not doing
Speaker 1: this research like on me. I'm doing and on other people.
Speaker 1: And it's so like can it's so people who can
Speaker 1: sort of disseminate this research out and so we can
Speaker 1: reach more people and have like a bigger impact. UM.
Speaker 1: So I think it really it all boils down to
Speaker 1: the money at the end of the day. I think that, UM,
Speaker 1: it's really powerful to do things like this. UM. And
Speaker 1: actually really listen. So I really appreciate everybody who's listening
Speaker 1: and being open to hearing from people from that community.
Speaker 1: And I'm appreciative that you are bringing people on who
Speaker 1: are from the bio community to really hear about our experiences.
Speaker 1: And I think that it's really useful throughout the LGBTQ
Speaker 1: community to be listening to the experiences, the lived experiences
Speaker 1: of people who are themselves transgender, who are intersex, who
Speaker 1: are a sexual, who are lesbians, we're gay, or transgender,
Speaker 1: and being able to um continue to keep an open
Speaker 1: mind and continue listening. I'm still listening. I've been listening
Speaker 1: for twenty years to my colleagues and my community, and
Speaker 1: we're all still learning. So I think being in a
Speaker 1: learning space is really helpful. I also think that as
Speaker 1: I feel the personal emotional space to take on some
Speaker 1: of these issues because they're not directing my own parenting status,
Speaker 1: for example, in a traumatic way, I think that's there's
Speaker 1: a really powerful space for allies when, for example, there
Speaker 1: have been absolutely horrific, um horrific measures by the current
Speaker 1: Trump administration. UM, it's really useful when your lgbt Q
Speaker 1: friends are just feeling emotionally exhausted to be the one
Speaker 1: who's spreading the word online, who's talking to people about fundraisers,
Speaker 1: about issues, about calling your senators, having the energy to
Speaker 1: do that in moments when people in the LGBT community
Speaker 1: themselves might just feel really defeated. So I think that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of really powerful opportunities to be an ally. UM.
Speaker 1: I am a very committed ally, for example, to people
Speaker 1: in the transgender community, and I feel a lot of
Speaker 1: alliance between the bisexual and transgender community as often the
Speaker 1: hidden or more forgotten parts of the lgbt Q I
Speaker 1: a continuum, and so I'm often interested in amplifying voices
Speaker 1: of transgender people as well as of intersex and a
Speaker 1: sexual people, um along with bisexual people, to sort of
Speaker 1: reminding people that the only the only image out there
Speaker 1: isn't doesn't need to just be a lesbian and gay
Speaker 1: people who are in same sex marriages. And I think
Speaker 1: that that's particularly important right now when the transgender, when
Speaker 1: tud gender Americans are under so much attack, and when
Speaker 1: there's been advisories from Trump's Health and Human Services that uh,
Speaker 1: people who are medical workers could not even maybe don't
Speaker 1: even treat transgender people because of a religious exemption, UM,
Speaker 1: and that homeless shelters would be able to turn away
Speaker 1: transgender people. I think that, um, those measures may not happen, UM,
Speaker 1: but still they are a real hospile message to the
Speaker 1: very human dignity of people in the transgender community. And
Speaker 1: people are feeling really beaten down. And so I'm often
Speaker 1: picking up the mantle and working on those issues. And
Speaker 1: my nonprofit doesn't find of Low Center has a Transgender
Speaker 1: Umbrella project, which is providing pro bono services in New
Speaker 1: York and New Jersey to transgender low income people to
Speaker 1: do a full We're calling it an umbrella to protect
Speaker 1: from whatever storms come of legal protection as well as
Speaker 1: name change package. Because I think that's really important to
Speaker 1: be UM, bisexual allies for the trans community, and I
Speaker 1: think that everybody can be an ally to people who
Speaker 1: are by by remembering in those moments to not erase
Speaker 1: bisexuals from the conversation. Um. You know, when you're watching
Speaker 1: the Queen documentary to say, wait a minute, don't describe
Speaker 1: him as a gay man. He actually had a long
Speaker 1: term female partner. UM. Sounds like by to me, you know,
Speaker 1: just being being willing to be part of that conversation
Speaker 1: of not erasing bisexual people from our community history, if
Speaker 1: I think, also really helpful. So one of the things
Speaker 1: that I had asked about in being an ally was
Speaker 1: something specifically with my job. I do work with teenagers.
Speaker 1: I do work with at risk kids, UM, and I
Speaker 1: work with them in the Southern State, and for that
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of training or understanding. And we
Speaker 1: do talk about the LGBTQ, but just like a majority
Speaker 1: of the society, we can't. We concentrate on the l
Speaker 1: G and the T and that's about it. And I
Speaker 1: wanted to know how do we service these youths who
Speaker 1: do identify as bisexual or who are trying figure out
Speaker 1: if they're bisexual, and UM, who she isn't speaking about it.
Speaker 1: I've written a bunch about how we can support by youth, UM,
Speaker 1: how we can support by adults. UM. The easiest way is, honestly,
Speaker 1: just to have conversations like these, just talk about bisexuality,
Speaker 1: you know, normalize it among your non by communities so
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, yeah, by totally cool. UM. The
Speaker 1: second way is to integrate examples of buy and Pan
Speaker 1: folks into your all of your literature and that means
Speaker 1: posters on the walls, that means criers, that means board reports,
Speaker 1: that means um research, that means outreach to youth, and
Speaker 1: outreach to donors and outreach to the community. UM. Something
Speaker 1: simple as you know, uh Bianca, a black by trans woman,
Speaker 1: was able to get a placement at this organization thanks
Speaker 1: to our work. Yea um. And you know, if you
Speaker 1: want to go a little bit deeper, then you know,
Speaker 1: have a support group for buy and Pan youth, you know,
Speaker 1: once a month, and I promise you nobody will come
Speaker 1: for two months. And I think that's the point at
Speaker 1: which a lot of folks say, all that means there's
Speaker 1: no buying trans people, buy and Pan people here, and
Speaker 1: that's the problem. Nobody. Well, I should back up a
Speaker 1: little bit. Buy and trans folks have buy and Pan
Speaker 1: folks have been burned so frequently by organizations to try
Speaker 1: and kind of do a nominal support for buying pan
Speaker 1: communities that we're really really suspicious. But if an organization
Speaker 1: has a regular buyant Pan support group night and they
Speaker 1: keep at it, even if there's no one there for
Speaker 1: six months, people will come out. But you need to
Speaker 1: keep at it. I promise you all the data shows
Speaker 1: that by and PAN youth are everywhere, and we are
Speaker 1: the majority of youth being served in every youth services
Speaker 1: organization that serves LGBT use I am wrote a piece
Speaker 1: called Bisexuality Margins a Center um to to think about
Speaker 1: ways that within the field of psychology and in society,
Speaker 1: we we've thought about bisexuality as being on the margins
Speaker 1: and and so we haven't been paying attention to it,
Speaker 1: so we don't see it clearly, and so we're not
Speaker 1: actually like understanding who bisexual people are in responding to
Speaker 1: their needs. So what happens if we bring bisexuality into
Speaker 1: the center and use it as a lens to understand things.
Speaker 1: You can't understand bisexuality without understanding health severity, you can't
Speaker 1: understand bisexuality without understanding history. You can't understand bisexuality without
Speaker 1: understanding media representation and mental health and uh mental health
Speaker 1: services and like all these different things attitudes. So I
Speaker 1: was really teaching about a lot of different topics to
Speaker 1: the lens of bisexuality because then you know, we understand
Speaker 1: all of these things better. So that's the thing. If
Speaker 1: we center bisexuality, it helps us understand everything. We can
Speaker 1: then understand Uh, you know, people who are in relationships
Speaker 1: with people of the same gender, people who are in
Speaker 1: relationships with people of another gender. We can understand gender
Speaker 1: more complexly. Also, um, we can understand it multidimensionally. It
Speaker 1: helps us to complexify attractions. I had sort of thought
Speaker 1: I made up as works to plexify, but apparently it's
Speaker 1: an actual word. Love It so that the thing about
Speaker 1: attraction is that we might have attractions that are slightly
Speaker 1: different to some people, Like we might fall in love
Speaker 1: with some kind to people and you know, wants to
Speaker 1: have sex with other types of people. And in bisexuality,
Speaker 1: we we have a better understanding of that. But that's
Speaker 1: something that's true of everybody. You know, everybody's got there's
Speaker 1: sort of differences that they that they feel about attraction. Um,
Speaker 1: And so so we can see attractions through a different one.
Speaker 1: We can also some people. Um, some of the negativity
Speaker 1: around bisexuality is because people see bisexual people as being
Speaker 1: just really like hyper sexual, and so there's a lot
Speaker 1: of negativity about sexuality that's related to negativity about bisexuality.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, maybe entering bisexuality allows us to talent
Speaker 1: all that negativity around sexuality to talent erotophobia, you know,
Speaker 1: to say, okay, well, you know, maybe bisexual people like
Speaker 1: are affectual, but maybe so are heterosexual people and lovely
Speaker 1: to gay people and and maybe that's okay, um, and
Speaker 1: and to embrace our sexu quality. Same thing with monogamy.
Speaker 1: You know, we spend a lot of time trying to
Speaker 1: combat this stereotype that bisexual people can't be monogamous, because
Speaker 1: it turns out that bisexual people, as a fact, are
Speaker 1: able to be monogamous. So so we know that and
Speaker 1: we know that that bisexual people can't be monogmous. However,
Speaker 1: bisexual people might be less likely to want to be monogamous. Um,
Speaker 1: it might be less likely to be monogamous than other
Speaker 1: people are. Now that doesn't mean that they cheat. You know,
Speaker 1: we're talking about like consensual nonmonogamy here. So maybe bisexuality,
Speaker 1: if we center that, we can be like, okay, how
Speaker 1: does that help us to understand different kinds of arrangements
Speaker 1: of relationships? And maybe that helps us to accept nonmonogamy,
Speaker 1: you know, for people who want that, And maybe it
Speaker 1: helps us think about how to negotiate relationships so that
Speaker 1: it is consensual nonmonogamy, and so that you know, so
Speaker 1: that everybody's clear um and and then I just think,
Speaker 1: you know, the potential to revolutionized gender is is one
Speaker 1: of the most exciting things about bisexuality because, like, like
Speaker 1: I said, I don't think that it reinforces the idea
Speaker 1: of binary gender. In fact, I think ultimately bisexuality challenges
Speaker 1: the idea that gender is narrow and that gender is
Speaker 1: the most important characteristic for us to organize the way
Speaker 1: we think about people. So I think if we do that,
Speaker 1: you know, if we start to do that, then we
Speaker 1: can also say, wow, how do we center transgender people
Speaker 1: and gender non binary people, How do we center other
Speaker 1: groups that are really vulnerable in our society? How do
Speaker 1: we center black lives, How do we center people with disabilities?
Speaker 1: How do we center people who are Muslim and people
Speaker 1: of other um non dominant religions. And so I think
Speaker 1: it just gives us a lot of opportunity to start
Speaker 1: um expanding our thinking about bisexuality, but also about everybody
Speaker 1: who's on the margins, and and how we can actually
Speaker 1: transform and improve our society by bringing all those vulnerable
Speaker 1: people into the center. We have some advice and resources
Speaker 1: for you listeners. But first we have a quick break
Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor. We're back, Thank you sponsor,
Speaker 1: and we're back with some advice. Advice is always welcome,
Speaker 1: always welcome, but generally welcome. It's actually good advice. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and this was good advice. The other day, a friend
Speaker 1: of mine and I were talking about how when we
Speaker 1: were young and we realized that we both had a
Speaker 1: crush on both Molder and Scully and we were so
Speaker 1: confirmed too, and we didn't like, we didn't know bisexuality
Speaker 1: was a thing, and feeling so confused about it. And um,
Speaker 1: as we got older, kind of this internalized by negativity
Speaker 1: that we thought it must be a phase, because that's
Speaker 1: what we kept hearing, like, you're young, you're going to
Speaker 1: grow out of it. Um. Do you have any advice
Speaker 1: for maybe younger people listening who are struggling with this
Speaker 1: right now? Mm hmm absolutely And I completely with a
Speaker 1: Molder and Scully book and kind of girl as an
Speaker 1: AX file stand um, and um, I think that it's
Speaker 1: okay to be in an experimental phase. I think one
Speaker 1: of the things that is really stigmatizing about people who
Speaker 1: were bisexual is there's this idea that many people who
Speaker 1: are bisexual are just in a phase, and so there's
Speaker 1: understandable hurt in UM. Sometimes it lives being engage munity
Speaker 1: with by people who are going to try outdating them
Speaker 1: and then decided isn't for them? Um and uh, you
Speaker 1: know a lot of people that get hurt in that process. Sometimes.
Speaker 1: I think that my suggestion is to be open to
Speaker 1: experimentation in a safe way with people that you trust,
Speaker 1: without needing to have alcohol involved or that need to
Speaker 1: have substances involved, um, but finding people who feel really
Speaker 1: safe and being able to communicate honestly with them if
Speaker 1: you aren't sure. I think that UM, rather than leaping
Speaker 1: into feeling like you need to have a label for
Speaker 1: your identity right away, UM, you don't need to decessarily
Speaker 1: decide if you're by, if your pan, if you're gay,
Speaker 1: if you're lesbian, if your trans, um, if you're a
Speaker 1: general non binary. I think that it's possible just to
Speaker 1: have some experiences and see what feels right to you
Speaker 1: and be honest with the people around you when you're
Speaker 1: not sure how you feel UM. And I think that
Speaker 1: it's also kind to those around you if you say, um,
Speaker 1: you know, hey, this is my first same sex relationship,
Speaker 1: but I'm not actually sure how it's going to go
Speaker 1: for me, rather than meet someone and say that you're
Speaker 1: bisexual and keep that hidden, and especially if there might
Speaker 1: be the possibility they might decide, actually, this isn't for me. Um.
Speaker 1: So I think that some of that hurt that people
Speaker 1: have around people who are experimentally by can be dealt
Speaker 1: with partly by just all communicating a little bit more
Speaker 1: and being okay with the possibility of experimenting. It's fine
Speaker 1: to need some time to try to figure out who
Speaker 1: you are and try different experiences, and sometimes you try
Speaker 1: something and figure out it isn't for you, and that's okay.
Speaker 1: So UM, I hope that people can find safe places
Speaker 1: and safe people to feel like they can have those experiences.
Speaker 1: And I recognize that in much of the world, even
Speaker 1: in most of the United States, it isn't actually safe
Speaker 1: for um, a teenager, for a college student necessarily to
Speaker 1: express same sex interest and desire, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of pressure to keep yourself in the closet and to
Speaker 1: just play along with being straight and um, and I
Speaker 1: think that's really understandable, and that it isn't always a
Speaker 1: safe thing to get out and experiment with who you
Speaker 1: are UM, but there are really wonderful supportive communities for
Speaker 1: you if you can get yourself to them. UM. I
Speaker 1: was definitely one of those people who fled to New
Speaker 1: York City when I got the chance from a small
Speaker 1: working class or old town UM and found myself in
Speaker 1: a place where then it felt like it was safe
Speaker 1: to explore that part of myself with other really conscious
Speaker 1: people who are also interested in communicating and talking about
Speaker 1: it and processing who we were. And there's such embracing
Speaker 1: l g B, t q I A communities out there
Speaker 1: UM online. If you can't physically get to them, there's
Speaker 1: you know, wonderful supportive resources and people who are happy
Speaker 1: to talk and help process UM. So I would encourage
Speaker 1: people who are experimenting, who are who are thinking out experimenting,
Speaker 1: who are confused, to feel free to reach out to
Speaker 1: UM supportive people who have been in the community for
Speaker 1: a while, because I think there's a lot of UM
Speaker 1: support and a feeling of kinsh up with that kind
Speaker 1: of journey, because you know, most of us have been
Speaker 1: on bumpy journey to get where we are now. We
Speaker 1: have some resources on our website UM at Chosen Family
Speaker 1: laws in or dot org UM, and we post things
Speaker 1: really frequently online and in our newsletter UM. And in addition,
Speaker 1: there's a book that I really love UM called Whipping
Speaker 1: Girl by Julia Serrano UM. And she is a transsexual woman.
Speaker 1: She called herself trans sexual, that's her own definition UM.
Speaker 1: And she talks about sexism and the scapegoating of feminity.
Speaker 1: And she's also works with UH at least an endochronologist
Speaker 1: or has endo chronology knowledge. So she describes her experience
Speaker 1: of living UM as somebody who is assigned MAIL at
Speaker 1: birth and then going through the experience of UM identifying
Speaker 1: as female and experiencing sexism for the first time UM.
Speaker 1: And it's incredibly powerful. And she also writes about the
Speaker 1: UH overlap between bisexuality and being transgender and UM. I
Speaker 1: think she does that really powerfully and also conveys UH
Speaker 1: the kind of definition of bisexuality that I use UM
Speaker 1: in terms of bisexuality, not referring to UM a gender
Speaker 1: binary is only male and female. So I think that's
Speaker 1: one really fantastic resource. UM. And there's a really really
Speaker 1: active and vibrant community online where you can find lots
Speaker 1: and lots of continuing conversation and sometimes in fighting in
Speaker 1: the community, and and speaking of infighting, I want to
Speaker 1: point out that although I personally use the term bisexual,
Speaker 1: and I think it's important that we hang onto that,
Speaker 1: and I haven't switched over to pan sexual and don't
Speaker 1: think that there's necessarily a need for a new word.
Speaker 1: I completely support people in using whatever words and definitions
Speaker 1: feel right for them. So I support people who feel
Speaker 1: like they want to use can sexual because it's going
Speaker 1: to be more readily apparent to people who aren't the
Speaker 1: fairly activists in this space that it's transclusive um our foom.
Speaker 1: It just feels like the right term. And I think
Speaker 1: it's important that while we hang onto words like bisexual,
Speaker 1: which are legal, medical definition, important for our activism politically UM,
Speaker 1: that we also feel free to experiment with words that
Speaker 1: um are really personally meaningful for us, and that can
Speaker 1: be an ever evolving UM, a set of terms that
Speaker 1: describe how people are feeling about their identity. And I
Speaker 1: think that's absolutely a valid part of the queer continuum.
Speaker 1: And I think that something that's also powerful and not
Speaker 1: spoken of very often is the way that we can
Speaker 1: go through a journey over the course of our lifetime,
Speaker 1: and I think I have personally, you know, known people
Speaker 1: who may have in the nineties identified as a um
Speaker 1: uh you know, ah butch lesbian who then went on
Speaker 1: to a dent pig as a trans man, who now
Speaker 1: may identify as more non binary as the different ideas
Speaker 1: in our community evolved. And I don't think that that
Speaker 1: makes any of those identifications any less valid, but I
Speaker 1: think they were all on an active journey as a
Speaker 1: community to to understand the full realms of um our
Speaker 1: sexuality and gender spectrums and the ways that those can
Speaker 1: even shift over a lifetime. I think that's also something
Speaker 1: that's worth mentioning about bisexual identity that's really true for
Speaker 1: me and many people I know, is that it is
Speaker 1: not necessarily six at all times, and so over the
Speaker 1: course of my twenty years of adult life, I haven't
Speaker 1: necessarily been at all times fift key percent romantically and
Speaker 1: sexually interested to men and women. There have been times
Speaker 1: when I felt like I am mostly a lesbian, but
Speaker 1: I am married to my husband and I love him,
Speaker 1: and all other men kind of gross me out. And
Speaker 1: there have been other times where I was primarily dating men.
Speaker 1: Um There have been times where I was primarily romantically
Speaker 1: attracted to men and primarily sexual attracted do women, which
Speaker 1: is complicated, let me tell you, um. And I think
Speaker 1: that all of that is a really realistic portrayal of
Speaker 1: what this journey can be like. And so if people
Speaker 1: feel a little bit messy and confused along the way,
Speaker 1: or feel like they're definition of themselves is shifting, I
Speaker 1: don't think that's a problem. I think I think that's
Speaker 1: a feature, not a bug. I think that's part of
Speaker 1: a beautiful, expansive vision of queer identity that we're working
Speaker 1: on now. And I think that's one of the ways
Speaker 1: that the word clear is actually a really useful word,
Speaker 1: because queer embraces a full continuum of identification and doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily require us to break ourselves down into like are
Speaker 1: you in the ELB you know, are you over here
Speaker 1: in the L box or the G box, the B box,
Speaker 1: the T box. I think that allows for multiple ways
Speaker 1: of identifying which are outside of a system that UH
Speaker 1: enforces sort of heterosexual different sex monogamy and people being
Speaker 1: sis gender. Everybody who who feels like they are somewhere
Speaker 1: outside of that or wants to allow for the possibility
Speaker 1: of that. I think clear is a wonderful word in
Speaker 1: that way as out. So one of my suggestions for
Speaker 1: listeners might be to embrace the ways that they are
Speaker 1: evolving a methody and not feel any guilt of shame
Speaker 1: about that. Honestly, I'd say, like, you're not, like, you're
Speaker 1: not alone. It might it might seem like you're, you know,
Speaker 1: surrounded by people who are some sort of different and
Speaker 1: the type of different that you are people don't really get.
Speaker 1: But you're not alone. Like there's massive bisexual communities that
Speaker 1: are out there. Um you know, younger people, older people.
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's community, you know. Um, yeah, it
Speaker 1: might be kind of hard to find at first if
Speaker 1: you're not sure like where to look, but there's community
Speaker 1: out there, and you know, like there's as much as
Speaker 1: there's like the stereotype of like the confused bisexual, there's
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with being confused, like people are. Humanity
Speaker 1: is like there's confusing concept and it's it's okay, sort
Speaker 1: of like I think that you want to figure something
Speaker 1: us out and that's fine. Um, you know, being being
Speaker 1: confused for a bit, um it's fine. But just trying
Speaker 1: not to give into the pressure that you have to
Speaker 1: choose aside when both sides are great, great, Um, why
Speaker 1: choose when you can just live in either or life.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything wrong with like answering both hands, right. Um.
Speaker 1: I joke around a lot with my friends when you know,
Speaker 1: we're just doing anything and they're like, oh, do you
Speaker 1: want this or do you want this? And my answer
Speaker 1: is just gonna be yes, Like do you want Indian food?
Speaker 1: Do you want Mexican food? Yes? I think that sort
Speaker 1: of shifting that mindset. I mean, like I say it jokingly,
Speaker 1: but like that's sort of what I want to do,
Speaker 1: is sort of shift shift people's mindset that it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be do you want um, one sex or
Speaker 1: one gender or one expression or like a cool unhole
Speaker 1: opposite sex. Their questions and they're multiple sexual students and
Speaker 1: ex questions, but I think, you know, for some people
Speaker 1: to answer is just yes and that should just be okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think my advice is just to trust yourself. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe you do identify as bisexual, maybe you identify as
Speaker 1: pan sexual. Maybe your sexual orientation is fluid. A lot
Speaker 1: of people have fluid sexual orientation and that's okay too.
Speaker 1: Maybe you've gone through different labels in your life, and
Speaker 1: you'll change labels as you age, and that's okay. To
Speaker 1: sexual orientation is natural. It is immutable in the sense
Speaker 1: that everybody has a sexual orientation. But if yours changes
Speaker 1: over time, that's okay too. You can be born the
Speaker 1: way you are and that way fluctually and evolve over
Speaker 1: time and still be just as valid as people who
Speaker 1: knew from the time they were fo and have never changed.
Speaker 1: That's great too. But those among us who have fluid
Speaker 1: sexual orientations, we are just as valid and we were
Speaker 1: born the way we are. So if you have an
Speaker 1: evolution and the evolution ends with you identifying as buyer, pan, welcome.
Speaker 1: I love you. You are part of my non monosexual community,
Speaker 1: and you're amazing. And if you are just stopping by
Speaker 1: non monosexuality through the with the day of your lifetime,
Speaker 1: you are also amazing. I love you, um, and I
Speaker 1: will advocate for you throughout your lifetime. And yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean we're all awesome. We're all cool. So the Bisexic
Speaker 1: Resource Center is a great um it's got an online
Speaker 1: size of so a base in Boston. But but if
Speaker 1: you look for Bisexical Resource Center, online, they're on Twitter
Speaker 1: say they do a lot of work. UM. They've got
Speaker 1: a lot of resources available around bisexuality and there super
Speaker 1: awesome and collaborative. UM by net USA is also a
Speaker 1: great organization that does a lot of organizing and that
Speaker 1: and that brings together, you know, people on these issues
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of advocacy and so that's a
Speaker 1: great group. There is a conference in Minneapolis every year
Speaker 1: UM for UM for bisexual people and called the Because
Speaker 1: Conference and it's been going on for decades and most
Speaker 1: people don't know that, and so if you actually want
Speaker 1: to go to a BI conference, you can do that.
Speaker 1: There's also gonna be a BI conference in San Francisco
Speaker 1: this October UM, so that's something UM. And then there's
Speaker 1: also one of my favorite UM efforts around promoting visibility
Speaker 1: for bisexual people is uh this still Bisexual campaign. So
Speaker 1: if you look up like hashtag filled bisexual UM, you'll
Speaker 1: find videos that people that bisexual people have made where
Speaker 1: they tell their stories through these the sort of like
Speaker 1: they don't seek They've got like cards that they've written
Speaker 1: on and there's music and there's it's a lovely way
Speaker 1: to find bisexual people who might be similar to you,
Speaker 1: because you can search on their website by different um
Speaker 1: different types of bisex and people like bisexual women or
Speaker 1: older bisexual people, or you know, different kinds of like
Speaker 1: bisexual people of color, different intersections. And I think that
Speaker 1: that's a great way to try to find yourself reflected somewhere.
Speaker 1: It's also a great way to be more visible, like
Speaker 1: if people are like, hey, I want to do something
Speaker 1: to support other bisexual people, and you can do that
Speaker 1: and you might find that that it also supports you
Speaker 1: actually speaking yourself or sharing your story and affirming. That
Speaker 1: can be a great way to UM to actually elevate
Speaker 1: your own um feelings about yourself as a bisexual person.
Speaker 1: And UM, the Bisexual PS Session proops that we have
Speaker 1: at Santa Barbara, UM a bunch of us participated. They actually,
Speaker 1: like the still bisexual folks came up from l A
Speaker 1: and filmed us and people in the group have talks
Speaker 1: about how meaningful that wants for them to do that,
Speaker 1: to share that, to get responses from people honest, So
Speaker 1: I really think that's a very cool effort. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I saw you got your video and one of the
Speaker 1: cards was that you write bisexual hiku is that true?
Speaker 1: It is true. I write bisexual Hi t I call
Speaker 1: it by two. Here's a bike to that I've wrote.
Speaker 1: Five month is over and I'm still bisexual. I'm not shocked,
Speaker 1: are you? It's so good. So and in my class
Speaker 1: UM for the last day of class, I the students
Speaker 1: I asked them to write a biku to summarize something
Speaker 1: that they learned in the class. And so the students
Speaker 1: wrote a bunch of awesome bikus. So I tweeted those
Speaker 1: out so you'll be able to find stuff that my
Speaker 1: amazing students did. And of course we had to ask
Speaker 1: about silver line, right. Hope, some hope in the future.
Speaker 1: Some projects going on, some amazing projects. I'm working on
Speaker 1: this project with the colleagues of mine, Amanda call it
Speaker 1: on definitions of bisexuality. UM, so that's one that we're
Speaker 1: um we're working on writing and finishing up. But I'm
Speaker 1: in my own research and um, well that's my research.
Speaker 1: But in my own research is my new position as
Speaker 1: an assistant professor. I am doing a study on the
Speaker 1: impact of microaggression for queer people of colors um and
Speaker 1: with that, I'm also collecting data on people well black
Speaker 1: queer people. UM. But I'm also collecting data on black
Speaker 1: bisexual people just sort of do an interview and get
Speaker 1: some of their experiences. So I'm really really really excited
Speaker 1: about this one because one, I'm like specifically looking at
Speaker 1: black queer people, um, and it's how I'm starting like
Speaker 1: this new chapter of my life in terms of this
Speaker 1: new position that I'm in and really trying to like
Speaker 1: establish myself um further with research. So I'm really excited
Speaker 1: about looking at this concept of microaggression, um, both in
Speaker 1: terms of race and in terms of sexual orientation as
Speaker 1: experienced by by sexual people. So I'm still I'm still
Speaker 1: recruiting for that one actually, so we're probably going to
Speaker 1: be recruiting for a few more months. Um. But I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to get more people to take the survey
Speaker 1: and sort of start to analyze the results on that.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm really excited about what this is going to
Speaker 1: look like. I'm part of a group called by Law
Speaker 1: as a Dye Law, and it's a group of bisexual
Speaker 1: attorneys who are activists around this issue. And we didn't
Speaker 1: for example, and amicast briefed the Supreme Court during the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court litigation related to the same sex marriage about
Speaker 1: making sure that bisexual people were included in the language,
Speaker 1: because much of the language was speaking only about gay
Speaker 1: and lesbian people and not speaking about the fact that
Speaker 1: m bisexuals are also impacted. And so you know, it's
Speaker 1: not just that people who are gay or lesbian UM
Speaker 1: wouldn't have the opportunity to get married. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: only only gay lesbieople you know, couldn't get married because
Speaker 1: they UM can't get into a different sex marriage. Even
Speaker 1: for me, as a bisexual person, if I wanted to
Speaker 1: choose that that should also be valid. Even if I
Speaker 1: could potentially be in a different sex relationship, I might
Speaker 1: want to choose the same sex relationship. So making sure
Speaker 1: that that language is included is something that we often
Speaker 1: are the ones who will submit an ANECAST brief bring
Speaker 1: up that issue. This also comes up in issues like
Speaker 1: UM integration cases when people are refugees who may be
Speaker 1: stigmatized because they are UM, because they've been in UM
Speaker 1: same sex relationships, because they're perceived as lgbt Q, and
Speaker 1: then sometimes if they're coming in and trying to prove
Speaker 1: their immigration status UM, it could be used against them saying,
Speaker 1: for example, you know you're not a lesbian who sigmatized
Speaker 1: because we have proof that you are once in a
Speaker 1: relationship with a man, Well, that doesn't mean that you're
Speaker 1: not also a bisexual person who may face a lot
Speaker 1: of stigma for that. I think that it's been an
Speaker 1: incredibly useful thing for us as a community in the
Speaker 1: past fifty years in Stonewall UM to fight so hard
Speaker 1: for same sex marriage the United States, and it's been
Speaker 1: an absolutely amazing civil rights victory. I often speak as
Speaker 1: a lawyer about how it's an amazing story of a
Speaker 1: political movement, because going from such a deep level of
Speaker 1: stigma to relative acceptance of same sex marriage as a
Speaker 1: done yell in United States in fifty years is just
Speaker 1: absolutely astonishing. And so it's been incredibly important, I think,
Speaker 1: and really powerful to fight for same sex marriage. But
Speaker 1: now I'm part of the community of lawyers and activists saying, well,
Speaker 1: hold on, not everybody wants to get married, and marriage
Speaker 1: is not necessarily the only family form that's worth valuing.
Speaker 1: Only half of American adults are actually married, and I'm
Speaker 1: interested in finding out more information about what those other
Speaker 1: kinds of family structures look like, because not everybody UM
Speaker 1: is getting into marriages people are choosing other things, and
Speaker 1: some other people may have found other kinds of structures
Speaker 1: that work for them. So, for example, I work with
Speaker 1: platonic co parents, and that is situations in which people
Speaker 1: want to be biological parents, but rather than dating that
Speaker 1: parenting relationship on romance UM, finding a close committed friend
Speaker 1: to do that with. And I think that's particularly useful
Speaker 1: in situations in which you might have a gay man
Speaker 1: that wants to be a biological parent but doesn't have
Speaker 1: or want to spend hundred fifty thousand dollars on an
Speaker 1: egg go or in servius a process which is how
Speaker 1: much to cost proxim in the United States right now?
Speaker 1: And maybe that client of mind who might be a
Speaker 1: forty year old woman that doesn't want to just get
Speaker 1: married to a guy she's been dating from match dot
Speaker 1: com for three months UM to have a baby and
Speaker 1: then get divorced, because I see those divorce clients as
Speaker 1: well UM, and instead think, how about instead of rushing
Speaker 1: into a relationship UM to have a child, I could
Speaker 1: do this with my gay best friend from college and
Speaker 1: have actually a lot more stability in that kind of
Speaker 1: relationship UM. And in addition, I work with UM people
Speaker 1: who are doing platonic co parenting with maybe a lesbian
Speaker 1: couple and a gay couple who decides that you know, UM,
Speaker 1: a woman from the lesbian couple and a UM a
Speaker 1: man from the male same sex couple are going to
Speaker 1: get together and UM find a way to platonically do
Speaker 1: an egg baster or go to a fertility clinic process
Speaker 1: in order to be biological parents together. And then maybe
Speaker 1: all four are going to co parent, or maybe three
Speaker 1: people are going to co parent, so that it's a
Speaker 1: couple and an extra person or two bols um. And
Speaker 1: then finally, I work with people who are polyamorous, which
Speaker 1: is the idea that you can be in more than
Speaker 1: one loving relationship and with full consensual honesty with everyone involved,
Speaker 1: and not just that you can sort of have the
Speaker 1: open relationship and swinger idea of being able to have
Speaker 1: maybe a close primary relationship UM and the only person
Speaker 1: you have romance with, but then also be able to
Speaker 1: have other sexual relationships. Polyamory is the idea that you're
Speaker 1: at least open to more than one committed relationship at
Speaker 1: a time. So sometimes in my community with my clients,
Speaker 1: that's three people who are in committed relationship together as
Speaker 1: a triad or thruffle or four people who are in
Speaker 1: exmitted relationship together as a quad and UM, that's I
Speaker 1: think also a really valid family form. And I work
Speaker 1: to support people by helping them create co parenting agreements
Speaker 1: or agreements about how they want to share their finances
Speaker 1: that really talk them through a lot of the potential challenges,
Speaker 1: to help them make plans in advance and make sure
Speaker 1: all of their intentions are on the same page. And
Speaker 1: I think those conversations are actually more important than the
Speaker 1: contract you end up with at the end. UM. I
Speaker 1: think it's a really powerful way to support other kinds
Speaker 1: of families. And I am actually myself polyamorous. My husband
Speaker 1: and I have been together for twelve years. We're both bisexual,
Speaker 1: and um we're in a polyamorous relationship and for us,
Speaker 1: that's part of our expression of being bisexual people. I
Speaker 1: was really tormented in my mid twenties, um, thinking I'm
Speaker 1: going to have to choose to be with a woman's
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. I'm going to choose to
Speaker 1: be with the man for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: And it was just this agonizing choice for me because
Speaker 1: it felt like it was gonna be really difficult. Um.
Speaker 1: It felt like, are you going to only eat sweet
Speaker 1: foods forever or savory foods forever? And I was like, no,
Speaker 1: I can't. Um. And for me, that's part of an
Speaker 1: expression of my bisexuality. But there is sometimes is a
Speaker 1: stereotype that bisexual people are sexually promiscuous or that we
Speaker 1: can't be an ugamous and I think that's absolutely not accurate. Um,
Speaker 1: this is something that works for me. And there are
Speaker 1: a good number of people who are bisexual who are
Speaker 1: also polyamorous or otherwise non monogamous as part of an
Speaker 1: expression of their bisexuality, but that certainly is not for everyone,
Speaker 1: and even being polyamorous does not imply sexual promiscuity. I'm
Speaker 1: somebody who has a few ongoing connections in addition to
Speaker 1: my partnership, including a woman I've been involved with for
Speaker 1: five years, and that's a more full expression of who
Speaker 1: I am as a bisexual woman. And it's something that
Speaker 1: my spouse and husband fully celebrates and I celebrate in
Speaker 1: him as well. UM. So those are family forms that
Speaker 1: have not been traditionally supported by a legal services organization.
Speaker 1: Many manical services organizations that work with LGBT people primarily
Speaker 1: work with lesbian or gay couples, you know, female same
Speaker 1: sex couples, are male same sex couples, or work with
Speaker 1: transgender people to get name change documents. But I was
Speaker 1: interested in supporting a fuller range of what lgbt Q
Speaker 1: families can look like, which can sometimes um involve kinship
Speaker 1: units such as polyamorous people. UM. I think it's also
Speaker 1: valid to make connections between these kinds of queer families
Speaker 1: and people who might not think of themselves as queer
Speaker 1: or lgbt Q, such as people who form kinship networks
Speaker 1: in the urban black community, where there's communities of aunties
Speaker 1: who get together and are supporting each other and raising children.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of other really valid ways to create family. UM.
Speaker 1: You know, if my sister and I wanted to buy
Speaker 1: a house together and raise children together and pay taxes together,
Speaker 1: why shouldn't we be allowed to use that relationship any
Speaker 1: less valid than two people who were in love and
Speaker 1: got married in Vegas last week. UM. I think that
Speaker 1: it's really an important conversation now for us as an
Speaker 1: except after same sex marriage, to think about, um, those
Speaker 1: other kinds of family forms as well. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of times that we are not even paying attention
Speaker 1: to the fact that there are bisexual people and we're
Speaker 1: not gathering the right data. So one of the things
Speaker 1: that we can do is, you know, in terms of policy, UM,
Speaker 1: when we're gathering data about people, and we're gathering data
Speaker 1: about sexual orientation, then we should make sure that we
Speaker 1: don't just have like lesbian, gay bisexual as one category
Speaker 1: that we really need to break that apart and understand
Speaker 1: bisexual people um uh separately from the way we understand
Speaker 1: lesbian gay people. Like there's some overlap that there's also
Speaker 1: some distinctions, UM. So that's one thing. Uh. There's also
Speaker 1: um ways in which we want to make sure that
Speaker 1: we're providing services UM that that are and and doing
Speaker 1: you know, putting resources um into the needs of bisexual
Speaker 1: people proportionate to both the number of bisexual people in
Speaker 1: the population and the level of need of bisexual people,
Speaker 1: which is pretty high. So when we looked at like
Speaker 1: funding um at NIA, for example, on the National Introduce
Speaker 1: of Health around UM sexual Orication, you would think that
Speaker 1: based on the number of bisexual people and the need,
Speaker 1: at least half of those funds would be going to
Speaker 1: study bisexual people and services for bisexual people. And and
Speaker 1: we're not seeing that. I have to say, there's some
Speaker 1: really incurgent stuff going on in terms of um, you
Speaker 1: know ni ah uh collaborating with with researchers to recognize
Speaker 1: that need and try to um identify kind of what
Speaker 1: the agenda for bisexual health research needs to be so
Speaker 1: that there are some really good things happening around around that.
Speaker 1: But um, but some of those kinds of policies around
Speaker 1: what kind of data if we collect, what kinds of
Speaker 1: resources are used, And then the last thing is what
Speaker 1: kinds of protections we have for people. So um, for example,
Speaker 1: if someone is you know, speaking asylum in the United
Speaker 1: States because they're persecuted in the country that they're coming
Speaker 1: from based on their sexual orientation and they're bisexual, then
Speaker 1: then if they are speaking asylum, like they might get told, oh,
Speaker 1: we'll just make sure you don't get into a relationship
Speaker 1: with somebody of of another gender because you know, you
Speaker 1: should just say you're gay, because you know, otherwise, you know,
Speaker 1: we we won't necessarily be able to provide those protections
Speaker 1: for you. And and you know that doesn't really work
Speaker 1: for people because they you know, they're still being just
Speaker 1: as persecuted based on being bisexual, you know, in another country,
Speaker 1: and so saying we're not going to acknowledge that bisexuality
Speaker 1: as a foundation for your persecution, uh, just is denying
Speaker 1: the reality of their That brings us to the end
Speaker 1: of our two partner on bisexuality, and we hope that
Speaker 1: it has been as informative for you as it was
Speaker 1: for us, that we could do our teeny podcast part
Speaker 1: in chipping away at some stigma and that maybe some
Speaker 1: of you feel less alone and less confused or okay
Speaker 1: with being confused. Right. So with that, I wanted to
Speaker 1: make sure that we've gotten all of the resources from
Speaker 1: the individuals, and they are. They have been gracious and
Speaker 1: sending it to me through emails and out sending it
Speaker 1: to us through emails and through social media. So we
Speaker 1: will definitely be posting that as well. If you guys
Speaker 1: will look for You'll both be on Twitter, Facebook and instagrams. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: And if you have any any works that you'd like
Speaker 1: to send us, any resources you'd like to send us,
Speaker 1: any by COO you'd like to send us, please do.
Speaker 1: You can email us at Stuff Media Mom Stuff at
Speaker 1: iHeart media dot com. You can find us on Instagram,
Speaker 1: at Stuff I've Never Told You and on Twitter at
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks again to our fabulous interview amazing people.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, yes, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm going to Twitter stalk you and social media stok
Speaker 1: you in a good way, in a good way, in
Speaker 1: a good way. Thanks as always to our superproducer Andrew Howard,
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told
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