Speaker 1: On the dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef and best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bedl Cast. Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin,
Speaker 1: I have a secret. Okay, do you know how you
Speaker 1: think that I'm your co host of the Bechtel Cast. Well,
Speaker 1: I've actually I'm actually a spy and I'm really from
Speaker 1: the Daily Zeite guys. Oh my god, you've been filtereded.
Speaker 1: But wait a minute, wait that wait, there's there more.
Speaker 1: Wait a minute. At the end, I'm double crossing the
Speaker 1: Daily Zeite guys, and I'm actually from behind the bastards.
Speaker 1: And then at the end, you get on a plane
Speaker 1: and Robert Evans is sitting on the plane and he goes,
Speaker 1: you're back, Oh my god, what a twitch aw. I
Speaker 1: know that was honestly a less confused that that would
Speaker 1: be less confusing to me than the ending of a tomic. Yeah.
Speaker 1: If you just got on a plane and Robert was
Speaker 1: there and he said, ha ha, I can't believe you
Speaker 1: called me a name, you a little scamp, And you
Speaker 1: said it's all a part of the job. Better go
Speaker 1: back to Cleveland or wherever the CIA is located. Where
Speaker 1: is the CIA? I don't even know. I was Langley, Langley. Yes,
Speaker 1: my boyfriend knew that, and he's like, everybody knows that
Speaker 1: CIA is at Langley. I was like, I don't know
Speaker 1: the CIA is at Langley. I don't even know what
Speaker 1: Langley is. Where is it? What is Langley? It's a
Speaker 1: city Virginia. I only know this because of the American Dad.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a true or like they
Speaker 1: just say it all the time. But yeah, whoa, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had no. I was like, Langley could be a person,
Speaker 1: could be a place. Wuld be an idea Langley? Apparently
Speaker 1: there's so much in this movie that that they think
Speaker 1: is common knowledge, but it is not for me. You
Speaker 1: and Robert have to get back to Langley. Yes we do,
Speaker 1: and we're on our way. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I am not actually a part of. And and
Speaker 1: I'm I can't say anything because I'm dead. You killed
Speaker 1: me and then got on Robert's plane. Yeah, anyway, this
Speaker 1: is the Bechtel Cast, which I am loyal to it,
Speaker 1: so for now, for now, but this is our show
Speaker 1: where we analyze movies from an intersectional feminist lens, using
Speaker 1: the Bechdel tests simply as a jumping off point. Jamie
Speaker 1: explain the Bechtel test to me in the most confusing
Speaker 1: way possible, in the spirit of Atomic Blonde. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: the Bechtel test is allegedly media metric invented by queer
Speaker 1: cartoonist Alson backed l sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test,
Speaker 1: in which theoretically you would think that two named characters
Speaker 1: of a marginalized gender talk about something other than a
Speaker 1: man for two lines of dialogue or more, unless at
Speaker 1: the end they it turns out they talk about men
Speaker 1: the whole time, and then they get on a plane
Speaker 1: and John Gubbins on the plane, and then they go
Speaker 1: to Langley. Okay, I I followed. I don't think I
Speaker 1: followed that. But the Bechtel test could be double crossing
Speaker 1: itself and it's actually men. It's actually been about men
Speaker 1: this whole time. It's actually been about men the whole time,
Speaker 1: and then it's triple crossed and it's actually been about um,
Speaker 1: it's actually been about I don't know, I don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: that's the and I think we've like, we've brought this
Speaker 1: up here and there on the podcast, but the Bechtel
Speaker 1: test is still about men because it's about how women
Speaker 1: are not are not talking about men, but it is
Speaker 1: thereby still men are still part of the equation at
Speaker 1: the center of the test. Yeah, you can't explain the
Speaker 1: Betel test when talking about the Chtel test. Well, anyways,
Speaker 1: we're talking about atomic blonde today. That's that's just the truth.
Speaker 1: And you have an amazing guest, we sure do. She
Speaker 1: is the host of Kicking and Screaming podcast. She's a
Speaker 1: host at l Ray Network, and you remember her from
Speaker 1: our Maid in Manhattan episode. It's Vanessa Guerra. Hello, Hello,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me back. I love that Maide
Speaker 1: in Manhattan episode so much because it was the first
Speaker 1: time I discover the power of a four loco on
Speaker 1: an empty stomach. Incredible. Did I didn't even know you
Speaker 1: could still buy four locos? I remember because I had
Speaker 1: fourhand run into Jamie at a gas station and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, that sounds delicious, that will happen. So
Speaker 1: I got a four logo and I got a hot
Speaker 1: dog and I was just like having both too quickly
Speaker 1: backstage and like the second I came out and like
Speaker 1: heard the audience. I was like, oh no, I have
Speaker 1: a buzz going uh. And then by the end of it,
Speaker 1: I just remember getting to the conclusion of Maide in
Speaker 1: Manhattan is the case for communism. Uh, It'll be way
Speaker 1: easier to get to that conclusion in this episode. It's
Speaker 1: built in here versus in how j Lo and y
Speaker 1: Fine are the least sexy couple that's ever existed. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, god, I does maybe want to go back
Speaker 1: and and rewatch Maide in Manhattan in solidarity with j
Speaker 1: Lo as she as she traverses this breakup. You know? Ah, right, Um,
Speaker 1: what are we to a tomics want? I was actually
Speaker 1: pretty hype to talk about something action and fighting related,
Speaker 1: since that's just most of what half of what I
Speaker 1: talked about these days. So what's your what's your relationship
Speaker 1: and history with Atomic Blonde? So I'm actually really excited
Speaker 1: to talk about specifically what happened the day I went
Speaker 1: to go see it, because it just boils down my
Speaker 1: like general frustration with just trying to enjoy this movie
Speaker 1: in Peace around Men, but my like general history is
Speaker 1: I was very excited to watch it because I am
Speaker 1: a big fan of the director whose last name I
Speaker 1: can never figure out how to pronounced David Leech, like licked.
Speaker 1: I'm going to the laked because I like it, but
Speaker 1: having been a big fan of his and in general,
Speaker 1: just whenever a stunt coordinator takes the director helm for
Speaker 1: an action movie, because that's typically where you're going to
Speaker 1: see that action look good, especially considering he made his
Speaker 1: debut as a co director for John Wick and that
Speaker 1: was gorgeous and basically like brought back the action star
Speaker 1: where the genre had been like pretty dead because uh,
Speaker 1: like the Born Identity and Taken had killed it. Uh
Speaker 1: because you just had these movies with like dudes that
Speaker 1: don't know how to move and like shaky handheld cameras
Speaker 1: and it was just basically sucking the fun out of
Speaker 1: action that like had existed during like the gen Claude
Speaker 1: van dam era and so like when they announced Atomic Blond,
Speaker 1: I was just like, hell, yeah, Charlie's has been wanting
Speaker 1: to do actions since like Eon Flux, because I know,
Speaker 1: like when that was the thing, she was like learning
Speaker 1: Kuipawa and saying that she wanted to like be a
Speaker 1: martial arts star. And uh, when I went to go
Speaker 1: see Atomic Blonde. I remember I went with like a
Speaker 1: couple of win in my life that are also like
Speaker 1: huge like action martial arts, like spy fans um one
Speaker 1: who was a fan of none of them but was
Speaker 1: just extremely queer and like their sty for Shortley's. And
Speaker 1: we went with like our token dude friend and the
Speaker 1: set and we left the theater we're like talking about like, oh,
Speaker 1: that fight scene was fun, Oh this was cool. This
Speaker 1: was interesting, not like you know, that was amazing, because
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of convoluted plot stuff, but like
Speaker 1: when you watch action, you're watching like the great choreography,
Speaker 1: and then there's some stuff in the middle, as with
Speaker 1: like any great action movie, like I dare you to
Speaker 1: tell me the plot of like police Story, Um, nobody remembers,
Speaker 1: nobody cares because you're there for the punching. But the
Speaker 1: dude that we were with could not stop analyzing every
Speaker 1: single scene based on what he thought we thought of it.
Speaker 1: So he kept giving like his like you know, like
Speaker 1: this is me being like the WoT good guy reads
Speaker 1: of everything, and so in the middle of our enjoyment,
Speaker 1: it kepting like, well, was it like a Jane Wick
Speaker 1: or is it like a Tinker Taylor, soldier, spy or
Speaker 1: is it supposed to be like a bond thing? And
Speaker 1: every time I've ever tried to have a conversation about
Speaker 1: this movie anywhere, it just becomes men comparing it to
Speaker 1: things that exist that can't just let it be when
Speaker 1: they do that. And is my general frustration about like
Speaker 1: just talking about women in action in general. That's so
Speaker 1: interesting because we haven't done a ton of action movies
Speaker 1: on the show. We've done We've done several, but yeah,
Speaker 1: there is always that tendency. I mean, just it's like
Speaker 1: such a male saturated genre that do you do you
Speaker 1: have a favorite action movie with with a female lead.
Speaker 1: There's a few, especially when you go towards like Shaw
Speaker 1: Brothers Martial Arts movies, so like less action, but like
Speaker 1: you know, still on the Martial Arts vein, Uh, you
Speaker 1: have My Young Auntie, which is a it's basically like
Speaker 1: Kung Fu Pride and Prejudice, which is amazing. There's a
Speaker 1: huge like fleet of just women that were like incredible
Speaker 1: and like the Shaw Brothers library, or you have like
Speaker 1: a lot of like Cynthia roth rock Work or Michelle
Speaker 1: Yo because you know, she's mostly known for like Crouching Tiger,
Speaker 1: Hidden Dragon, and then uh it was the one that
Speaker 1: she did recently, Crazy Rittasians. But you know, she already
Speaker 1: had this amazing lineup. But it's interesting because I feel
Speaker 1: like action, for how much it's like talked about as
Speaker 1: male saturated in the seventies and eighties, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of female action stars that don't really get their flowers.
Speaker 1: And then now when we're having the same conversations, it's
Speaker 1: usually because it's just like actors that can't really fight
Speaker 1: and they're like replaced by a celebrity versus just like
Speaker 1: these incredible stunt women that are still working and performing
Speaker 1: and that are good actors. Honestly, it's there's I don't
Speaker 1: know that much about the history of the genre, and
Speaker 1: that gives me a lot of peace to know that
Speaker 1: there are there are eras of the genre that are
Speaker 1: like really female dominated. But it's it's I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, when we were growing up, there was not
Speaker 1: that much in the mainstream at least. Yeah, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like how it's kind of like how a lot
Speaker 1: of women found themselves in horror where it like double
Speaker 1: backed on something that was four men, but women were
Speaker 1: like no this is mine now with like the final
Speaker 1: girl thing except action and martial arts. Version of that
Speaker 1: was the girls with Guns genre, where like there's an
Speaker 1: entire like if you look up girls with guns, it's like,
Speaker 1: especially in Japan, there is a big like genre push
Speaker 1: of just like here's three ladies and they're just an
Speaker 1: elite action team. And it was one of those things
Speaker 1: where it's like, yeah, it was originally created four men,
Speaker 1: and then women were like, this is mine. Youink love
Speaker 1: when they do that. I'm so excited to learn more
Speaker 1: about the because I know, like you're an expert and
Speaker 1: you know a ton about it. I'm very excited to
Speaker 1: learn more today because this is this is in terms
Speaker 1: of just general knowledge, I am weak on action and
Speaker 1: physically weak. Oh god, same the amount of jars that
Speaker 1: I have to request open and then like for me,
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of this genre, but almost all
Speaker 1: of my favorite action movies are male driven stories starring
Speaker 1: you know, male action heroes, so I I am not
Speaker 1: well enough versed in more like female centric action movies.
Speaker 1: So I was excited about this movie when it came
Speaker 1: out for that reason, and I remember like seeing the
Speaker 1: trailers for it, and I already love Charlie's, so I
Speaker 1: was like, I can't wait for this And then I
Speaker 1: saw it in theaters and was confused by the plot.
Speaker 1: But I was like, holy sh it, Charlie's as an
Speaker 1: action movie star is undeniable, just so awesome, and she's
Speaker 1: doing a lot of her own stunts in this movie.
Speaker 1: I was just like blown away by the action sequences
Speaker 1: and the fight choreography and like what she's capable of
Speaker 1: because like, again, I hadn't seen that much, especially fighting
Speaker 1: like that because you see you see like and we'll
Speaker 1: talk about this, but like the fight choreography that women
Speaker 1: are often made to do in action movies is they
Speaker 1: wrap their legs around a man's face and then pussy
Speaker 1: slammed them to the floor. And there's like none of
Speaker 1: that in this movie. And yeah, so I was just
Speaker 1: like I was blown away by the action scenes, um
Speaker 1: and confused by the narrative. So that's my relationship with
Speaker 1: this movie, Jay, what about you. I had never seen
Speaker 1: this movie. I remember being excited. I remember the trailer
Speaker 1: for this movie was a big deal because it was like,
Speaker 1: I think that the trailer for this movie was mostly
Speaker 1: just a fight scene to be like it's a movie
Speaker 1: about Charlie's Saryn kicking the ship out of people, which
Speaker 1: was thrilling for me. I didn't see it when it
Speaker 1: came out, and then I just I feel like this
Speaker 1: movie kind of like it didn't do super well at
Speaker 1: the box office. I feel like it didn't pop the
Speaker 1: way that you would think it would. But then watching it,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the action is fucking incredible, it's terrifying,
Speaker 1: it's so and then reading about like, I'm the relationship
Speaker 1: I'm rooting for in this movie as Charlie's there on
Speaker 1: any action genre. Um more so than the characters, I
Speaker 1: don't know what's going on with them. I had to
Speaker 1: google Atomic Blonde ending explained it was confusing to be
Speaker 1: but the action was great and I'm excited to talk
Speaker 1: about it. Like surely is Sara needed to get like
Speaker 1: dental surgery in the middle of this production because she
Speaker 1: just was like kicking ass so much. She was literally
Speaker 1: clenching her jaw so hard, and like, if you look
Speaker 1: at every production she's ever done action wise, like she's
Speaker 1: like Kianu in the sense of like those are actors
Speaker 1: that would you wouldn't like call the martial arts stars
Speaker 1: the way you would call like somebody that's in the
Speaker 1: genre like echo wise or I'm trying to remember the
Speaker 1: name of the woman who's getting her own sequel from
Speaker 1: The Night Comes for Us, but she's there's a lot
Speaker 1: of women in The Night Comes for Us that have
Speaker 1: like some of the best action martial arts sequences, and
Speaker 1: like I want to see them getting more work. But
Speaker 1: like in terms of like actors that actually like give
Speaker 1: a ship about martial arts, like every production, Charlie's is like,
Speaker 1: I want to learn judo, I want to learn cape Era,
Speaker 1: I want to learn you know. She was actually training
Speaker 1: with John Wicks and the John Wick with Kiano since
Speaker 1: John Wick two was in production around the time. I
Speaker 1: loved that fact that they were training together and we're friends.
Speaker 1: I was like, that's so beautiful and wholesome. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: like the director himself, who was a stunt choreographer so
Speaker 1: he's worked with everyone, has said Charlie's throne is in
Speaker 1: the top one percent of actors that want to like
Speaker 1: do their own stunts and stunt work, because she did
Speaker 1: have a stunt double for like certain scenes where it
Speaker 1: was just completely like out of her skill set, like
Speaker 1: jumping out of a window. I believe it was a
Speaker 1: woman named Monique. I can't remember her name, but her
Speaker 1: experience with it was also like, because there's this thing
Speaker 1: that I like to call the Tom Cruise effect in action,
Speaker 1: where an actor insists on doing his own stunts, but
Speaker 1: if it's something that can like get him her said
Speaker 1: production back doesn't matter. If it's him that can't see
Speaker 1: his face, that can like take a million takes, set
Speaker 1: a crew back, and won't look any different other than
Speaker 1: just the ego of saying I've done my old stunts.
Speaker 1: And like, if you listen to any of Charlie's stunt doubles,
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, she knows when to call us in
Speaker 1: and be like, I'm not doing this one. Someone else
Speaker 1: should because I'm not going to do that in the
Speaker 1: amount of takes that it needs to be. But if
Speaker 1: it's you know, my face and if you're seeing it,
Speaker 1: then I'm going to be there to sell it. And
Speaker 1: that's why her stunt doubles have such a better experience
Speaker 1: with her than like a lot of men that are
Speaker 1: insistent on doing all their own stunts and instead just
Speaker 1: set production back. Hearing stories about Charlie's and always like
Speaker 1: is I feel like there's a lot of stories like
Speaker 1: that with her because she with Mad Max. The thing
Speaker 1: that always stuck with me was that, um, what's his name,
Speaker 1: Tom Hardy? Is that a man's name, Tom Hardy? Oh
Speaker 1: my god, Tom Hardy. For the life of me, I
Speaker 1: just can't remember him. People say he's talented, I just
Speaker 1: can't remember who the man is. So but on the
Speaker 1: set of Mad Max, Tom Hardy was like going super method,
Speaker 1: you know, he was just he was just being Mad Max.
Speaker 1: Where as Charlie's her own who stole that movie right
Speaker 1: out from under him. Um would just act when the
Speaker 1: camera was on and then because it was like most
Speaker 1: male method actors, Tom Hardy was like using this to
Speaker 1: be a fucking asshole to everyone working with him, and
Speaker 1: Charlie's was like she I think she was asked about it,
Speaker 1: and She's like, no, I just do the job when
Speaker 1: the cameras on, and then I stopped, and then I'm
Speaker 1: nice to people like yeah, exactly, I if you're a
Speaker 1: good actor, that's possible, and you're not a good actor,
Speaker 1: and then I'm like whatever, I mean, like, if you
Speaker 1: want to do method for you know, your craft or whatever, like,
Speaker 1: but don't I just hate when it's used as an
Speaker 1: excuse to be ad dick to people, because it feels
Speaker 1: like that's where it usually goes. What about yelling at
Speaker 1: a p A is going to make this movie better
Speaker 1: for you? Right right? Yeah? The only actor who should
Speaker 1: be going method and like staying in that character all
Speaker 1: the time is Ben Wishaw as Paddington. Yeah, or Al
Speaker 1: from Molina with dot Dog. I'd let him kill me.
Speaker 1: So it's just spitfalling. Um. But yeah, Charlie's is great.
Speaker 1: I feel like for I mean, we're gonna be talking
Speaker 1: about a lot today. I am so interested Kaitlin to
Speaker 1: hear what your plot this is going to be, because
Speaker 1: I think honestly I'll learn. I Well, let me just
Speaker 1: give this disclaimer. This recap might not make any sense
Speaker 1: because again I'm not sure how clearly I understand this movie,
Speaker 1: but I did. I did watch it twice to prep
Speaker 1: for this episode. I really did my best to make
Speaker 1: this recap as clear as possible. But shrug, who knows
Speaker 1: how it's gonna go. Um. So, yes, here's the recap.
Speaker 1: We are in Berlin. It's November, right before the fall
Speaker 1: of the Berlin War. Yep, let me try that again
Speaker 1: everything's gone great. Right before the fall of the Berlin Wall,
Speaker 1: we see a man, James Gascoyn get murdered by a
Speaker 1: KGB agent named boxed In. Then we cut to Lorraine.
Speaker 1: That's Charlie's Theron or Throne. Everyone's name in this episode
Speaker 1: is just going to really trip me up. It has
Speaker 1: a little bit of accent on everything. So that's why
Speaker 1: I'm always like, Charlie's is in London. She's in London,
Speaker 1: she's all bugged up, She's drinking vodka on ice, which gross,
Speaker 1: and her hair is atomic blonde. She's British Intelligence. So
Speaker 1: like M I six, I had to google M I
Speaker 1: sex is that is that? I think that's roughly equivalent
Speaker 1: to like American CIA. Okay, that's what I learned. Julie
Speaker 1: childs in an early version of that, right, Okay, if
Speaker 1: the once it becomes Julia Child trivia, then I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh wait, now we're speaking my language. And she goes
Speaker 1: to a debriefing where Toby Jones is there and so
Speaker 1: is John Goodman from the CIA, and they're like, hey, Lorraine,
Speaker 1: what happened in Berlin? And then the movie cuts back
Speaker 1: and forth between this like debriefing and flashbacks of like
Speaker 1: what's actually happening in the story. What would have been
Speaker 1: really helpful is if Toby Jones and John Goodman turned
Speaker 1: to camera and recapped the Cold War. It would have
Speaker 1: been super nice because this plot requires that you have
Speaker 1: a pretty thorough understanding of the Cold War, the allegiance
Speaker 1: is and exactly what was going on at the end
Speaker 1: of Um. Yes, I admittedly know so little about the
Speaker 1: Cold War that I am embarrassed to admit how little
Speaker 1: I know about it. Um. I know that it was
Speaker 1: something about communism, and I know a little bit more
Speaker 1: now because I found a website that is, um, the
Speaker 1: Cold War Explained for Children. So, um, I found this
Speaker 1: really helpful resource that explains to children what the Cold
Speaker 1: War was linken in the description, and now I have
Speaker 1: a slightly better understanding. But um, yeah, I just I
Speaker 1: did not learn about this in history class and I
Speaker 1: don't know anything about it. Iconic, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: UM Okay, So then we flash back to ten days earlier,
Speaker 1: where Toby Jones is explaining to Lorraine that immunity has
Speaker 1: been promised to a Stazzi officer code named Spy Glass
Speaker 1: in exchange for a document a k a. The List,
Speaker 1: which is hidden in a wristwatch, which contains names of
Speaker 1: every active clandestine officer currently in Berlin and all of
Speaker 1: the shady things that they're into. I do kind of
Speaker 1: love that. I love the riddle inside of a riddle.
Speaker 1: It's all very I was like, Oh, I feel smart.
Speaker 1: It's like national treasure. There's a clue inside a clue
Speaker 1: inside a clue. It's like the Davini code capin and
Speaker 1: then you put the word apple in and it goes,
Speaker 1: guess what, that's the DA code. Good grief? Okay, so
Speaker 1: this is And then they say like that this is information,
Speaker 1: if it falls into the wrong hands, will extend the
Speaker 1: Cold War for another forty years. She's like the stakes
Speaker 1: are high, really high stake groundhogs Day. Yeah, So they
Speaker 1: think the man who killed Gascoyne at the beginning of
Speaker 1: the movie now has this list and everyone's looking for him,
Speaker 1: including Perceval. That's James McAvoy who is in Berlin. And
Speaker 1: then I think it's a flashback flashback to him talking
Speaker 1: to Spyglass telling him that Gascoyne never showed up with
Speaker 1: the list. But Spyglass is like, hey, don't worry I
Speaker 1: memorized it. So then Lorraine heads to Berlin to link
Speaker 1: up with Perceval. There's a mysterious woman who is following her.
Speaker 1: There's a few fight scenes where like the kg BE
Speaker 1: pretending to be British intelligence show up and try to
Speaker 1: trick her, but she beats the ship out of them
Speaker 1: with a shoe. It's so good. Um. Meanwhile, backed in,
Speaker 1: the guy with the list didn't report to his like
Speaker 1: Soviet pals, the main guy there being Bremovich um, and
Speaker 1: they're realized that he's going to basically betray them and
Speaker 1: sell it on the black market. Then we cut back
Speaker 1: to Lorraine. She's trying to find this list, but there's
Speaker 1: also this Traders double agent with code name Satchell, who
Speaker 1: is on the list and who Lorraine is trying to
Speaker 1: expose or keep hidden. I don't know. And it's at
Speaker 1: this point in the movie where I'm like, oh, there's
Speaker 1: too many there's too many mcguffins, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: get confused really soon one of those like okay, there's
Speaker 1: a there's a list inside of a watch, but now
Speaker 1: there's Satchel and I'm going to get lost. I think
Speaker 1: I was already pretty lost by this point, at least
Speaker 1: on my the first time watching this movie also, and like, wait,
Speaker 1: what is the Cold War? I have no idea. It's
Speaker 1: been explained to me, and like basketball, I haven't retained it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've like I've definitely read about it. I've like read
Speaker 1: the cold War Wikipedia page. But it's like one of
Speaker 1: those things that, like the second like I hit X
Speaker 1: on the wikipedie page, I've forgotten everything I just learned,
Speaker 1: so gone. Do you want to know? It's really embarrassing. Yes,
Speaker 1: I took a two year course in high school on
Speaker 1: the Cold War. I don't know what it is. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know. I didn't retain any of
Speaker 1: it and I was too busy having crushes. All I
Speaker 1: know is there's a piece of it in a Vegas bathroom. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's a urinal in a Vegas bathroom. I
Speaker 1: can't remember like what hotel has it, but that's exciting.
Speaker 1: I love a cold War artifact. Um. Yeah, So for
Speaker 1: anyone who's like listening to this episode and like hoping
Speaker 1: to get some context for the Cold War, yell at doesn't.
Speaker 1: This is not a cold war podcast, Okay, jeez. Anyway,
Speaker 1: So Lorraine goes somewhere to find answers, and this woman
Speaker 1: who has been following her approaches Lorraine. Her name is
Speaker 1: Delphine Lacel, and she's like, hey, meet me at this
Speaker 1: club tomorrow night. And we're like, oh, they're fining, they're vibing.
Speaker 1: Then there's something with a watchmaker and a watch, but
Speaker 1: not the watch with the list on it. It's a
Speaker 1: different watch. And Lorraine is given a new contact to
Speaker 1: pursue in East Berlin, like an ally that she can
Speaker 1: trust because she does not trust Percival's contacts. And she
Speaker 1: goes to East Berlin and meets with this contact, Merkel
Speaker 1: a k a. Bill Scars Guard who looks to meet
Speaker 1: a lot like Steve BUSHEMMI was anyone else getting that
Speaker 1: he does, and that makes sense as to why I
Speaker 1: find him attractive, because I'm like, I shamelessly am Helen
Speaker 1: into like the big I thing, and I've always had
Speaker 1: a long time like boushemy thing, and I couldn't figure
Speaker 1: out why Scars guard is like the most appealing of
Speaker 1: the Scars guards to me. Bill I mean, and the
Speaker 1: boushemy thing makes sense now that he he is kind
Speaker 1: of serving some young bush emmy. I have such a
Speaker 1: crush on Bill scars Card. I'm like as Pennywise, not
Speaker 1: as Pennyway. It doesn't matter, Yeah, it doesn't matter. Like
Speaker 1: in this movie specifically, he looks the most like Berlin
Speaker 1: punk kid in the way that like you'd meet somewhere
Speaker 1: and just be like, ha ha ha, I'm going to
Speaker 1: ignore all my friends to talk to you. Does let
Speaker 1: him like ruin your life for a couple of exactly,
Speaker 1: drop everything and be like, wow, my life's and shambles.
Speaker 1: But here's Bill scars Guard. He has that face anyway.
Speaker 1: So then so then Lorraine goes to this club that
Speaker 1: Delphine told her about, and Lorraine and Delphine start making out.
Speaker 1: But oh wait, Delphine works for French intelligence, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: whose side are they on? In the Cold War? How
Speaker 1: would I know that? There? You know, from what I
Speaker 1: could gather, like the US, England, West Germany and French
Speaker 1: were all allied together. Okay, so they're all on the Okay,
Speaker 1: so the French I just was like, is France randomly
Speaker 1: going rogue and there with East Berlin? So then okay, sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop. So yeah, she's she's an ally. So
Speaker 1: that's like kind of a point of contention for a moment,
Speaker 1: but then they're like, well, just keep kissing, and then
Speaker 1: they have sex, and then Delphine tells Lorraine some secret
Speaker 1: information about Perceval, which I think we never find out
Speaker 1: what it was by the end of the movie. So
Speaker 1: question was trying to figure that out too, van Asa,
Speaker 1: do you know? Yeah, I've been trying to figure it out.
Speaker 1: I have a theory because, like by this point, she
Speaker 1: hasn't taken that photo yet, I think because later on
Speaker 1: there's that photo she takes of Perceval. So my theory
Speaker 1: is either like she was following him or Personval hired
Speaker 1: her to follow Lorraine, because why else with like an agent,
Speaker 1: as a novice as Delphine, who's only been doing it
Speaker 1: for like a year, and like you know, she like
Speaker 1: makes a lot of like rookie mistakes, So why else
Speaker 1: would someone like her like catch on to where Lorraine
Speaker 1: is and who she is unless she was like tipped off.
Speaker 1: So that's what I think. I think personal might have
Speaker 1: like hired her because she's there at the airport when
Speaker 1: Lorraine arrives in Berlin. Yeah, that makes sense. Poor, I
Speaker 1: I wish that we got uh more Delphine just I
Speaker 1: I liked how she was, like, yeah, I thought I
Speaker 1: would like spy for a couple of years after college.
Speaker 1: But I'm kind of in over my head. It's like
Speaker 1: she's treating being an international spy like it's teach for America.
Speaker 1: I'm like, what are you doing? What are you doing?
Speaker 1: You don't know? You're not suited to this job. I'm like,
Speaker 1: there's a whole there's a whole slapstick comedy in that
Speaker 1: sentence alone. Yeah, I know, basically spy too. I want
Speaker 1: her character and spy too. Yeah, where's like, where's the
Speaker 1: rom com version of this where it's just like Lorraine
Speaker 1: and Delphine having a comedy of errors falling in love
Speaker 1: and not knowing who's who. There's a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: there because it's like, oh if a if a if
Speaker 1: an experienced spy falls in love with a rookie spy,
Speaker 1: that's such a bad look for her, and like, oh
Speaker 1: how embarrassing. Oh my god, I love Okay, I would
Speaker 1: watch let's write it. Yeah, so into this um okay.
Speaker 1: So meanwhile, Perceval finds Bockton, kills him and takes the
Speaker 1: watch with the list on it, but he doesn't tell
Speaker 1: Lorrain that he has it when they meet up to
Speaker 1: make arrangements to escort Spyglass to West Berlin because they're
Speaker 1: providing like safe passage to him and his family to
Speaker 1: the west. And then shortly after that, this is when
Speaker 1: we also see Perceval colluding with the Soviets. He's talking
Speaker 1: to what's the guy's name, Bremovich, and so things seem
Speaker 1: pretty shady there. The more last names that it introduced
Speaker 1: to stuff, the harder of a time I have, which
Speaker 1: is why I never got into Game of Thrones in general.
Speaker 1: Anything that has a lot of names is a tough
Speaker 1: one for me, especially because there's so many like code
Speaker 1: names to or like names of people who you don't
Speaker 1: know what code name applies to what person. And it's
Speaker 1: why I've never been sober for a Bond film. I
Speaker 1: just let it take me. You need It's so like
Speaker 1: and then if and then the answer to your question
Speaker 1: of like who is that is always like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: the guy with the beard, and then you're like, well,
Speaker 1: that's actually really not helpful. There's forty of them. They
Speaker 1: just come on and off, but wherever they want. I
Speaker 1: also didn't okay, this was like a totally stray observation.
Speaker 1: But the moment where John Goodman shows up at the
Speaker 1: top of the Berlin Wall and he's wearing a hat,
Speaker 1: I almost didn't recognize him. I'm like, have I ever
Speaker 1: seen John Goodman in a hat? He was unrecognizable to
Speaker 1: me in that hat. Interesting does he wear hats? Listeners
Speaker 1: sound off in the comments, I don't know that I've
Speaker 1: ever seen the man wear a hat. Maybe an inside
Speaker 1: luland Davis. I think I distinctly think in the backseat
Speaker 1: of a car he might be wearing a hat. But
Speaker 1: also that character has like I'm wearing a hat energy, right.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, God, I feel like I had just
Speaker 1: John Goodman is so and he's like amazing, but he's
Speaker 1: so John Goodman in all of his roles, and I
Speaker 1: was just completely thrown by seeing him in a winter hat,
Speaker 1: and I was like, that's not the man I've come
Speaker 1: to love. I knew the shape of his head. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's like, where's the top of that head? John? Anyways,
Speaker 1: a lot of brilliant observations keep him coming. Jamie John
Speaker 1: Goodman hat three question marks, I'll mark that off. I
Speaker 1: think I pay my point. Oh God, Okay, um So. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Perceval and Lorraine go to East Berlin to meet up
Speaker 1: with Spyglass to get him safely to the west, except
Speaker 1: there are a bunch of Soviet snipers targeting Spyglass. They
Speaker 1: are unsuccessful, but Perceval shoots Spyglass, which no one sees.
Speaker 1: So now we're like, yeah, definitely, Perceval is maybe not
Speaker 1: a good guy here. That guy we'd keep hearing is
Speaker 1: the bad guy. He might be the bad guy, might
Speaker 1: be bad guy. Yeah. So then following that is when
Speaker 1: they we get this like he like ten minute long,
Speaker 1: amazingly choreographed fight sequence. She finds the Soviets, kicks the
Speaker 1: ship out of them for ten minutes. She and Spyglass
Speaker 1: escaped temporarily, but then Spyglass is killed when their car
Speaker 1: is kind of thrown into a river and he drowns.
Speaker 1: Um So, now Lorraine believes Perceval to be a double agent.
Speaker 1: This is even more confirmed when he goes and kills Delphine,
Speaker 1: which Lorraine finds out about right away. She's sad. She
Speaker 1: then finds and kills Perceval, and it seems like Perceval
Speaker 1: is like this code name double agent Statuel. But wait,
Speaker 1: but then we see Lorraine editing various audio recordings. She's
Speaker 1: like cutting things together to make it seem like I was.
Speaker 1: I wrote down Caitlin editing the Bechtel cast every week,
Speaker 1: cutting out all the stuff that's like, oh, no, one
Speaker 1: wants to hear that. This is gonna come out and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be admitting to so many crimes. Yeah, sorry, Vanessa,
Speaker 1: but I'm really going to implicate you for some messed
Speaker 1: up stuff here, brutal stuff. I'm the one that burned
Speaker 1: down the I'm the reason the Hindenburg crashed. I mean
Speaker 1: you said it during the recording, I like the evidence show.
Speaker 1: Oh goodness, Um okay. So she's like, yeah, she's cutting
Speaker 1: things together to make it seem like Percival was a
Speaker 1: traitor when it seems like Lorraine was Satchel all along.
Speaker 1: What But then we cut to a few days later
Speaker 1: in Paris, Lorraine as Satchel, meets with the main Soviet
Speaker 1: bad guy, Bramovich, who is about to kill her. But
Speaker 1: she kills him and all of his cronies because wait,
Speaker 1: she's not a trader. She's still loyal to the British crown.
Speaker 1: Oh wait, no she isn't, because she's been an American
Speaker 1: spy this whole time, working for the CIA, and John
Speaker 1: Goodman is her boss. She's not British intelligence at all.
Speaker 1: Whoa that was? I got the the when the movie
Speaker 1: ended for the fourth time. I was like, hello there,
Speaker 1: and then she's like, I just want my life back,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what what do you mean by that?
Speaker 1: Because I don't know a damn thing about you. It
Speaker 1: seems like this movie is setting up more. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we'll tell you more about her later. There is a
Speaker 1: sequel in development, so maybe we will find out more
Speaker 1: information about Lorraine. In the meantime, let's take a quick
Speaker 1: break and then we'll come back to discuss. And we're back, baby,
Speaker 1: Where where do we want to Should we start by
Speaker 1: talking about the action in the movie, because yeah, there's
Speaker 1: so much to love here. I um yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: but as you're you're the expert, what was your what
Speaker 1: was your take on the action in this movie? Oh?
Speaker 1: My god, I loved it. I loved it so much
Speaker 1: I the last few years, And like, continuing onward, we're
Speaker 1: watching action in martial arts movies have their renaissance again,
Speaker 1: Like we're watching people actually like give a shit about
Speaker 1: good choreo and also filming good choreo because for a
Speaker 1: long time, the way we were shooting it wasn't doing
Speaker 1: it justice. It was that like shaky handicam. That's like
Speaker 1: why would you go through the effort of you know,
Speaker 1: training these actors and these stuntmen through these amazing pieces
Speaker 1: of choreography akin to like Bean Kelly dance sequences, and
Speaker 1: then we shoot it like shit, which is like very
Speaker 1: much like a Western thing because like Indonesia, Korean, everywhere
Speaker 1: else was like way ahead of us on the action
Speaker 1: end there. Uh like just watch anything they were doing
Speaker 1: like ten years before we started getting good again. Uh.
Speaker 1: But like specifically where I started noticing people like paying
Speaker 1: attention to action coreo getting good again, it was like
Speaker 1: Birds of Prey where it was like, oh wow, you
Speaker 1: can get characterization through like good action sequences and the coreo.
Speaker 1: And this does a lot of that, Like when Perceval
Speaker 1: gets stabbed in the back when he's like trying to
Speaker 1: kill Delphine and he's like he can't reach the knife
Speaker 1: and you have that almost like comical like slapstick moment,
Speaker 1: or really thinking about like the stairwell scene and how
Speaker 1: it's all this really great one take, but everyone like
Speaker 1: is getting progressively exhausted, and you're having those moments where
Speaker 1: they're like hitting the ground and taking a breather, like
Speaker 1: stumbling back, and it feels so much more grounded considering
Speaker 1: like the plot gets a little wonky because it it
Speaker 1: has that like most of being something that's like based
Speaker 1: on a graphic novel. So it's like what do we
Speaker 1: keep and what do we not keep? And just like
Speaker 1: spy movies in general, I struggle to follow. There are
Speaker 1: like two of the four Daniel Craig Bond movies that
Speaker 1: have come out to date, I could not even begin
Speaker 1: to explain the plot to two of them. I like,
Speaker 1: I'm just like the what was one quantum of soulace
Speaker 1: like you can get about it. I don't know what
Speaker 1: that movie is about. I've seen it like three times
Speaker 1: and I can't tell you what happened. So I think
Speaker 1: that's just sort of like a trademark of the genre
Speaker 1: is that a spy like espionage movie is just going
Speaker 1: to be kind of confusing. It's confusing, and action really
Speaker 1: shines its best when you just do like a real
Speaker 1: just like simple like this is the plot and and
Speaker 1: we're just going with this when i'd like I bring
Speaker 1: it up again and I remember the name of the sequel,
Speaker 1: It's Night of the Operator with this amazing actress named
Speaker 1: Julia Stell. That's the sequel that they're planning. But The
Speaker 1: Night Comes for Us is a perfect action movie because
Speaker 1: the plot could just be summed up as like a
Speaker 1: former Triad member is protecting a young girl. That's keep
Speaker 1: it simple, and then just action. It's super simple, and
Speaker 1: then just action sequences play out the rest of it,
Speaker 1: because that's when it works the best. The second you
Speaker 1: try and do something else, people are lost because they're
Speaker 1: paying attention to these great long sequences and then there's
Speaker 1: some ship in the middle and they're lost. But like
Speaker 1: the choreography and this does the thing that I really
Speaker 1: love where it thinks about how each person would fight
Speaker 1: in a situation because like in a lot of this,
Speaker 1: like you know, Charlie's is still like smaller stature than
Speaker 1: a lot of the people that she comes up against,
Speaker 1: so she uses her environment. She's really good at like
Speaker 1: figuring out where she can get these like physical advantages
Speaker 1: of advantages is on them, but like also doesn't get
Speaker 1: that thing that you saw in like a lot of
Speaker 1: earlier action movies with women in them where it's like,
Speaker 1: but they're also inhumanly strong, yeah, and also so. And then,
Speaker 1: like I mentioned this earlier, but like a lot of
Speaker 1: earlier action movies starring women were really grossly sexualizing the
Speaker 1: fight choreography and like making them just like horny fight
Speaker 1: and like oh Mr and Mrs slam you down with
Speaker 1: my pussy and that's gonna be my big signature move,
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, yeah, this just felt so much more
Speaker 1: grounded and authentic, and there wasn't any sort of like
Speaker 1: meal made of Charlie's body as she was fighting in
Speaker 1: in the action sequences that it's like, I feel like
Speaker 1: for me talking about the action sequences of this movie
Speaker 1: and then talking about the other parts of the movie,
Speaker 1: it's like it was like, I don't know, I was
Speaker 1: having some dissonance with like the action sequences are so
Speaker 1: incredible and so well done, and I mean, like you're
Speaker 1: saying Vanessa like she's using her body in a really
Speaker 1: powerful but realistic way. She's like dressed in a way
Speaker 1: that makes human sense for what she's doing, and like
Speaker 1: it's just really fucking cool. And then but then outside
Speaker 1: of that, I feel like her body is treated completely differently.
Speaker 1: It's just so it was like kind of dissonant for
Speaker 1: me in terms of, like, the action is so good,
Speaker 1: but then the way that the camera treats her body
Speaker 1: at other points, And I don't know how much of
Speaker 1: this is pulling from the graphic novel. I'm sure a
Speaker 1: lot of it is, but the way the camera treats
Speaker 1: her body when she's outside of those action sequences feels
Speaker 1: more intentionally sexualized. And yeah, the action sequences and the
Speaker 1: rest of the movie, I was like, Oh, it almost
Speaker 1: feels like two different units or something. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: excited to talk to you about this because I've also
Speaker 1: like I've had some interesting mental back and forth with it,
Speaker 1: or it's just something that I like never just have
Speaker 1: like a straight answer for how I feel about it,
Speaker 1: because like it is treated differently from the fight sequences,
Speaker 1: because the fight sequences are very much just like it's
Speaker 1: how a lot of like martial artists and action stars
Speaker 1: are treated as like, you know, their body is like
Speaker 1: this weapon in this tool. And on one hand, there's
Speaker 1: also like the elements of like it feels overly sexualized.
Speaker 1: But then I also grew up watching a lot of
Speaker 1: gen clon VANDAM movies where he's like oiled up and
Speaker 1: like doing the splits and like very much like posing
Speaker 1: like this is my ass, and like the hallmark of
Speaker 1: the Action star where the men are like flexing, and
Speaker 1: like that first scene where like before we even see
Speaker 1: her tits, it's like the flexing of her back muscles,
Speaker 1: and so like there those moments of me being like
Speaker 1: what for me is like the amount that you expect
Speaker 1: from an Action star as like what has been standard?
Speaker 1: And then what feels ick for me? And I'm trying
Speaker 1: to find those lines because then I have this other
Speaker 1: layer of like this general frustration. And I've talked to
Speaker 1: other queer women about this, this like general frustration of
Speaker 1: just like when am I getting an Action star that
Speaker 1: I get to lust over that isn't just a guy?
Speaker 1: And when can I like have that framed for me?
Speaker 1: Because I also like want that. I want my like
Speaker 1: sexy bond lady. I like I want my you know
Speaker 1: Gordon lou like glistening in the sun moment. But then
Speaker 1: you also have to like have that conversation of just
Speaker 1: like who is the target audience? What am I gleaning
Speaker 1: off of this? Like how is it presented and like
Speaker 1: when am I like going to get it? And it
Speaker 1: goes straight back to that why can't I have something
Speaker 1: and let it be? But then I have the conversation
Speaker 1: of like how men are viewing it too, and I'm like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: my impression of it was her body was not treated
Speaker 1: that much differently than the way a man's body would
Speaker 1: be treated in an action movie where a man is
Speaker 1: the action hero of the story, where like there is
Speaker 1: still some degree of sexualization of a male action hero,
Speaker 1: like you said, with like a focus on like glistening muscles,
Speaker 1: or there's some kind of like raw sexualization to like
Speaker 1: a strong, rugged male action hero. And while there is
Speaker 1: some kind of gazey camera work happening on Charlie's body
Speaker 1: and there's scenes where she's nude where she didn't necessarily
Speaker 1: have to be seen nude, Like narratively speaking, I feel
Speaker 1: like the same kind of things happen in yeah, just
Speaker 1: like any action movie. Not to say that that's like
Speaker 1: an excuse or that makes it okay, but it was
Speaker 1: to me because there are action movies starring women that
Speaker 1: way more sexualized, like the female subject I'm thinking of,
Speaker 1: like Angelina Jolie in Laura Craft tumb Rater sure that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I still haven't seen Salt, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: women's bodies will just be more sexualized than what I
Speaker 1: saw in Atomic Blonde. Not to say that there was
Speaker 1: no actualization happening. It was kind of like somewhere in
Speaker 1: the middle. I guess it's that messy, messy middle, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And again, this is like not my genre, so I
Speaker 1: totally I totally hear what you're saying in terms of
Speaker 1: like men are this is just a very sexualized genre.
Speaker 1: It's a genre that hinges on bodies working at peak
Speaker 1: physical performance, and like you're gonna want to see that.
Speaker 1: There was just I think for this one in particular,
Speaker 1: I kind of like I did some research on the
Speaker 1: team and obviously like, this is a team that knows
Speaker 1: action and knows stunts, but I was also like, this
Speaker 1: is also a team of men who never seem to
Speaker 1: work with women behind the scenes very frequently, And I
Speaker 1: did feel like with with certain shots and certain scenes,
Speaker 1: there was stuff that felt like it felt just kind
Speaker 1: of like if there was a woman in the room,
Speaker 1: or if there was a woman in a high creative position,
Speaker 1: would this scene had happened this way? With this costume
Speaker 1: ways have gone through because I feel like kind of
Speaker 1: the difference with other action movies that I'm familiar with.
Speaker 1: And again it's not a ton but I was you know,
Speaker 1: usually in action movies, you have, you know, a male
Speaker 1: hero who is presented pretty sexually, but you also have
Speaker 1: these side female characters who are presented hyper sexually and
Speaker 1: they're basically useless to the plot. This movie presents its
Speaker 1: hero sexually, and that's kind of it there is you
Speaker 1: don't have that, like, oh and here's the like sexy
Speaker 1: male sidekick this time or I don't know, it just
Speaker 1: felt I think it's stuck out to me because the
Speaker 1: only characters I felt like we're being kind of sexualized
Speaker 1: were the female characters, like that those other elements were missing,
Speaker 1: and I think that's why it kind of popped from
Speaker 1: me like that very bond wa Yeah, And then I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, and it's a cinematographer for transformers, so like,
Speaker 1: I just don't know, I just don't know how Like
Speaker 1: I guess my I'm extremely jaded in this department, but
Speaker 1: particularly with cinematographers, I'm like, I just don't know that
Speaker 1: they were thinking of or asking these questions just based
Speaker 1: on kind of the team assembled. Yeah, it's it's a
Speaker 1: probably not situation because of just like how like especially
Speaker 1: we were like on the precipice of getting more, but
Speaker 1: like at the time there are so few women, uh
Speaker 1: not like working because they've been there, but like that
Speaker 1: we're being hired, financed and like put in these positions
Speaker 1: to make these calls. Totally. But then you also get
Speaker 1: on the weird end of just like because you're like
Speaker 1: mixing genres where you also have like the spy thriller
Speaker 1: where it's like ah, but then there's always that like
Speaker 1: honeypot situation. Uh. But again because it was because I know,
Speaker 1: the suggestion to like add bisexuality into it was Charley's.
Speaker 1: Yeah she was that wasn't in the graphic novel, but
Speaker 1: she wanted that element to it where she's just like
Speaker 1: I wanted to have like my bond girl moment, but
Speaker 1: then the moment wins where she's with Gascoyne. We don't
Speaker 1: really get to have those moments with him. We don't
Speaker 1: really get to like lust with him and give him
Speaker 1: like the equal bond girl moment that we get with Delphine.
Speaker 1: I think I would have like kind of maybe this
Speaker 1: is like nonsensical, but I would have been less kind
Speaker 1: of like pinged by it happening with Charlie's and with
Speaker 1: Delphine if that moment did exist for the side characters,
Speaker 1: because you're because it's like it's a hyper sexual genre
Speaker 1: regardless of gender normally, but it felt like it was
Speaker 1: still kind of like the hyper sexualization and not even
Speaker 1: like hyper but the sexualization really only happened for female characters. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and just felt like kind of off. Yeah, I'm picturing
Speaker 1: a scene where Charlie's is taping like a microphone or
Speaker 1: like a bug to herself, and the camera starts on
Speaker 1: her like pelvis and then kind of like just slowly
Speaker 1: tilts up her body as she's like taping the wire
Speaker 1: all the way up, and then like she wearing a
Speaker 1: bra but like it lingers on her breasts for a moment,
Speaker 1: and then that shot is used in the trailer. And
Speaker 1: we can talk about the trailer a little bit, but
Speaker 1: it's basically like whatever is going to make an audience
Speaker 1: want to see a movie, which is usually like sex
Speaker 1: and violence and rock and roll, and this movie has
Speaker 1: got it all. The soundtrack for this movie is so fun.
Speaker 1: It's all diagenic too before Baby Driver, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, so there's there's like these kind of linger
Speaker 1: e kind of males gazy shots that exist in the
Speaker 1: movie are just plucked out and put into the trailer
Speaker 1: to get people to be like, oh, this is going
Speaker 1: to be a really this is a really sexy movie.
Speaker 1: I have to go see it. It's like, I'm never
Speaker 1: upset to see Charlie's like, it's not that's not the
Speaker 1: issue for me, Like I'm in love, but the thing
Speaker 1: is great. But yeah, you have James McAvoy and a
Speaker 1: meshed tank top. Why not him to exactly. I'm like,
Speaker 1: there should be equal opportunity lusting if we're if we're
Speaker 1: lusting in the movie, like James McAvoy's right there, Bill
Speaker 1: scars Guard, give me some of that Bill scars Guard. Baby.
Speaker 1: I'll even take it from John Goodman because I've had
Speaker 1: a long time thing for him. It's like, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like you have all I mean you have. It would
Speaker 1: be easier to tell the male characters apart if if
Speaker 1: one were naked. But yeah, so it's like it's there
Speaker 1: there were some shot like that shot you're describing Caitlyn.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, the Transformers Dark of the Moon is
Speaker 1: jumping out for me here a little bit. But I
Speaker 1: never felt that watching the action sequences. So that's why
Speaker 1: it was just felt like different, I don't know, yeah,
Speaker 1: like that that that sexualization isn't present there for sure.
Speaker 1: I had a couple other observations about the different fight sequences,
Speaker 1: um where I think it's just like worth noting that
Speaker 1: we see very little in the way of male heroes
Speaker 1: or characters that were meant to be like we are
Speaker 1: meant to side with fighting. It's all Lorraine fighting men
Speaker 1: who are like framed as being bad guys. So like
Speaker 1: it's just such a rare thing to see in a
Speaker 1: mainstream American contemporary movie that in general is cool. There
Speaker 1: was a moment where we talked about the shoe the
Speaker 1: and that happens pretty early on, and I didn't totally
Speaker 1: remember a lot of details about this movie after having
Speaker 1: seen in theaters. So the scene where she like pulls
Speaker 1: off her candy apple red three or four inch stiletto
Speaker 1: and like uses it as a weapon. For a moment,
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, no, is this going to be
Speaker 1: one of those movies where like women like they're using
Speaker 1: their shoes and like their lipstick is actually like a
Speaker 1: tracking device and like things like that, and that didn't
Speaker 1: happen after this one moment with the shoe, which I was,
Speaker 1: I mean that moment, the shoe is fucking and I mean,
Speaker 1: it does make a good weapon. But she's got other weapons.
Speaker 1: She's got other Yes, most of the time you see
Speaker 1: her fighting with her fists or kicking people or shooting guns,
Speaker 1: so keys, lamps, sections of hose, but not like frying pans,
Speaker 1: which is the thing we talked about all the time,
Speaker 1: where like, oh, if a woman fights, then she has
Speaker 1: to fight with cookwear. No, She's like, she's like fucking
Speaker 1: good at what she does, which is like her job
Speaker 1: is just that. I mean, I don't even want to
Speaker 1: get into the plot stuff too much because I'm like,
Speaker 1: what what does the CIA want in this situation? I
Speaker 1: don't know. I couldn't tell you what her true goal is.
Speaker 1: Everyone's motivations are so weird, like John Goodman, aren't the
Speaker 1: CIA and on my six theoretically on the same side, right,
Speaker 1: I don't understand. I don't know, I don't know. Oh God,
Speaker 1: there's so much I don't know about the Cold War
Speaker 1: and also the general wants of what covert operations need.
Speaker 1: I have no idea, right, Yeah, but like speaking to
Speaker 1: like Lorraine's character, I mean, she's definitely I feel like
Speaker 1: and and again you both no way better than me.
Speaker 1: I feel like spy characters are often kind of blank
Speaker 1: slates because they have to have all these secrets kind
Speaker 1: of deal. And that's kind that is her deal because otherwise,
Speaker 1: if you, I mean, if you find out she's American,
Speaker 1: then the plane scene at the end means nothing. But
Speaker 1: I like that. I felt like, yeah, like Lorraine is
Speaker 1: just like a full on fucking action hero. She looks
Speaker 1: cool all the time, regardless of what she's doing. Oh,
Speaker 1: she's she's drinking vodka on the rocks. She's drunk, chain smoking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's drunk all she's chain smoking. She's saying funk all
Speaker 1: the time. She's a certified she's like Quippy in the interview,
Speaker 1: she's always firing off these one liner Like it just
Speaker 1: felt so like in a real, a fun way, like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is like an action movie. This person is just
Speaker 1: like a career cool person. Yeah right, but yeah, we
Speaker 1: don't we don't learn much about her character nor any
Speaker 1: beside from that. Yeah, and then, and this type of
Speaker 1: movie doesn't call for like really meaningful character development, Like
Speaker 1: that's not why we go to watch an action movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like I dare anybody to give me like five character
Speaker 1: traits of John Wick, Like give me five other than
Speaker 1: like he likes dogs. Give me four more than that,
Speaker 1: because like even the third movie had like a weird
Speaker 1: side plot or he like went to Egypt and cut
Speaker 1: off his own finger for like no goddamn reason. Uh.
Speaker 1: And again, these are movies I adore, but I like
Speaker 1: with so many like action heroes and like give me
Speaker 1: five each, I dare you truly impossible for most of them? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't really come to the genre for character development. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The last subservation I want to make about just sort
Speaker 1: of like the action of it all is that, um,
Speaker 1: I just appreciate that between Atomic Blonde, between Mad Max
Speaker 1: Fury Road between I didn't see this movie yet, but
Speaker 1: I know that it's another action movie. The Old Guard
Speaker 1: on Netflix. Charlie's Theren has like proven herself to be
Speaker 1: an impressive action movie star. Not that she's necessarily like
Speaker 1: known only for that because she'saw she you know, spans
Speaker 1: many genres. She didn't do it all dully. She was
Speaker 1: a dully, she was in Monster, She in a bunch
Speaker 1: of young adults, Mighty Joe Young, remember that one. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, I had that on VHS. I watched it
Speaker 1: until it like they just got all the little fuzzy
Speaker 1: lines because I kept rewinding it anyway. So she's very versatile.
Speaker 1: But she's kind of one of a few women in
Speaker 1: Hollywood who are being cast in these very action centric roles,
Speaker 1: which I think is just like a really cool thing
Speaker 1: that I would like to see more of, especially because
Speaker 1: it's not something that a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: women have been able to achieve just because of like
Speaker 1: the limitations of who they let be in action movies.
Speaker 1: But there are dozens of men who have made entire
Speaker 1: careers as very bankable action stars. And you could like
Speaker 1: Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis the Rock, Jason Statham, Kana Reeves,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Schwards Senegger, Like the list goes on
Speaker 1: and on and on. So I just I appreciate that,
Speaker 1: like Charlie's there and this is part of her career
Speaker 1: now because I love watching her fight and just and
Speaker 1: I really like that she like got this movie made too.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a lot of especially when you
Speaker 1: hear about UM, like so many good movies with female
Speaker 1: protagonists only happened because there was like a woman with
Speaker 1: power who was like, we're doing this um, and it
Speaker 1: seems like this movie is no exception that, like Charlie's
Speaker 1: was like found the book and she was like, I
Speaker 1: want the director of John Wick to do this, and
Speaker 1: this is the team I want and this is how
Speaker 1: I want to fight. And you know, she like got
Speaker 1: it made. And she's in her forties in this movie too,
Speaker 1: which isn't you know, which isn't nothing in Hollywood ever,
Speaker 1: and I know she's producing the sequel to which is fantastic.
Speaker 1: I love it also for anybody that's just like looking
Speaker 1: for a lot of like dope scenes with women in
Speaker 1: action now, like look to Indonesia. Indonesia like currently has
Speaker 1: been doing amazing, Like if you just look up an
Speaker 1: actress named Julia Stell, like the amount of fights that
Speaker 1: she has under her belt right now that are all
Speaker 1: all of them are like iconic scenes in action. Like
Speaker 1: if somebody did like a top twenty from the last decade,
Speaker 1: a big chunk would be Julia Stell. Awesome. That's so cool, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I gotta check her out. Um, let's take a quick
Speaker 1: break and then we'll come for more discussion and we're back,
Speaker 1: all right, should we talk about the romantic Let's talk
Speaker 1: about the romantic sub plot? Baby? So um I so
Speaker 1: it's between um Lorraine and Delphine teach for America Bad
Speaker 1: Spy And this is like I think that actress's second
Speaker 1: like spy type movie as well. Yeah, I forgot she
Speaker 1: did Kingsman. Oh yeah, she was the girl with the
Speaker 1: sword feet, like the henchman with the sword feet I have.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen Kingsman. I didn't know there was sword
Speaker 1: feet in that movie. Yeah. So Sophia Boutel I believe
Speaker 1: is her last name. Her background is also dance. That's
Speaker 1: why she's in it movie. Um, that director I hate
Speaker 1: gas Barney Clinic. Yes, not a fan. Yeah, so her
Speaker 1: background is mostly dance stuff. So, like, I'm surprised that
Speaker 1: she didn't get a ton of corio in this movie
Speaker 1: because she had a bit in Kingsman as like the
Speaker 1: main batties Henchman. So when I saw her in this,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh cool they brought her in because
Speaker 1: she did like a Bond homage. Already you know, she
Speaker 1: like has that background, and she didn't really get a
Speaker 1: ton of corio, which is a bummer for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I felt like she was set up. I really enjoyed
Speaker 1: the way that her character was set up, and I
Speaker 1: enjoyed how that relationship was set up, and then she
Speaker 1: kind of disappeared and then she came back and then
Speaker 1: she was killed. It reminded me a little bit of
Speaker 1: the girlfriend character in Have either of you seen I
Speaker 1: Care a Lot? Oh not. Yes, there's another like a
Speaker 1: cool relationship that is set up and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is like love is you know, I'm I'm kind
Speaker 1: of a sucker for like, my only weakness is love.
Speaker 1: The same and then you get like a cool, a
Speaker 1: cool character and then you're like, oh, this is going
Speaker 1: to be the movie, but then it kind of isn't,
Speaker 1: and then the character dies and you're sad, sorry for
Speaker 1: spoiling I Care a Lot for your kid. It's no,
Speaker 1: it's the same kind of deal that I've seen before,
Speaker 1: because it's just like I don't know, there's like there
Speaker 1: isn't like a ton of space to development, but also
Speaker 1: like I've seen other movies give me that development faster,
Speaker 1: so I know, it's possible. It's not something that's like
Speaker 1: undoable and impossible. And like Delphine had all of the
Speaker 1: makings of, you know, having like one or two really
Speaker 1: great fight scenes, like she had a little bit of
Speaker 1: that moment with that like knife work, but again not
Speaker 1: that much. And like you said, Jamie, I really liked
Speaker 1: their back and forth in terms of just like her
Speaker 1: being a novice and like this thing that like reflects
Speaker 1: that to Lorraine, and I just I wanted a little
Speaker 1: bit more. I wanted just at least just a sequence
Speaker 1: of not so much like how she got into it,
Speaker 1: like those photos. We get like such a throw a
Speaker 1: moment of her taking those photos, but we didn't get
Speaker 1: like a three minute spic scene or something, right, and
Speaker 1: like why wouldn't you have shown that, like and why could?
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that like the center of the
Speaker 1: action is going to be around Lorraine, and that probably
Speaker 1: makes sense, but it's like there was room for that
Speaker 1: and it would have been fun to watch. And it
Speaker 1: seems like, um, Sophia Boutella is able to do it,
Speaker 1: so just do it. Yeah, I feel like she kind
Speaker 1: of faded. She just kind of faded out of the
Speaker 1: movie over time. I don't know. Yeah, so here here
Speaker 1: my thoughts on all this. So it would have been
Speaker 1: like the easy, the expected the common choice to have
Speaker 1: this romantic subplot b between like Lorraine and Percival. Instead
Speaker 1: it's a queer romance. The character in the source material
Speaker 1: in the graphic novel is basically the same character, but
Speaker 1: they gender swapped it. So what happened there was basically
Speaker 1: Charlie Starren was like, Okay, we're developing this for the screen.
Speaker 1: We're adapting this. How can we make it different though
Speaker 1: than like your typical spy action movie. And then the screenwriter,
Speaker 1: Kurt John's did suggested quote in the graphic novel, the
Speaker 1: Lacelle character, the French agent is actually a man. I said,
Speaker 1: I think it's cool if we gender flip this and
Speaker 1: make it a woman end quote. And then Charlie's was
Speaker 1: all for it. So we have a few things here now.
Speaker 1: So we get some by visibility because it's implied that
Speaker 1: Lorraine was in a relationship with James Gascoyne before he
Speaker 1: was killed, and then she begins with this relationship with Delphine.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's not something we've actually talked that
Speaker 1: much about on the show, but as far as bisexual
Speaker 1: visibility and by erasher. A lot of media and even
Speaker 1: media featuring queer characters tends not to include bisexual or
Speaker 1: pan sexual people, or I mean really anyone on the
Speaker 1: sexual spectrum who is not hetero or a gay man
Speaker 1: or lesbian woman. The sexual spectrum that tends to get
Speaker 1: represented in media still seems to be quite binary and
Speaker 1: erases a large number of people. So this movie does
Speaker 1: give us some bisexual inclusion and visibility. However, this movie
Speaker 1: received backlash from a lot of viewers for the use
Speaker 1: of the barry your gaze trope um, which is, if
Speaker 1: anyone is not familiar in media, a disproportionate number of
Speaker 1: queer characters will be killed off, often in the name
Speaker 1: of advancing a hetero leading characters storyline. When it does happen,
Speaker 1: it's often like very kind of random or needlessly or
Speaker 1: it like kind of doesn't really have anything to do
Speaker 1: with the plot, or it like didn't need to happen narratively,
Speaker 1: so that's kind of part of this trope. And you
Speaker 1: it means that queer characters don't get a happy ending,
Speaker 1: or like that the queer couple doesn't get to end
Speaker 1: up together. So a lot of people saw this movie
Speaker 1: and we're really disappointed by the use of this trope.
Speaker 1: And then like learning that the screenwriter was like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's just make this a queer relationship instead of a
Speaker 1: straight relationship then uses that trope. To me is just
Speaker 1: sort of indicative of like, Okay, the choice wasn't necessarily
Speaker 1: made for maliciously, but like it wasn't made in an
Speaker 1: informed way. I feel like that again speaks to like
Speaker 1: the the like team that has assembled here are a
Speaker 1: great action team, but but they're like needs to be
Speaker 1: some other voices in the room. Yeah, because it's like
Speaker 1: this guy wrote three hundred you know, like is he
Speaker 1: do we really trust him with this storyline? I don't know,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. Yeah, I'm gonna bring a
Speaker 1: kind of left field example in terms of just like
Speaker 1: when I'm like comfy in a death and versus when
Speaker 1: I'm like not, because like I've had this conversation a
Speaker 1: zillion times with other queers where it's like there's barrier
Speaker 1: gates and then there's just when a plot like lends
Speaker 1: itself to like this character will die or everybody dies,
Speaker 1: or there's no happy ending, and often the time the
Speaker 1: thing that changes it is if the writer straight or not.
Speaker 1: And also like is the character experiencing like some kind
Speaker 1: of retribution And like the first time I saw a
Speaker 1: queer death on screen where I like didn't feel weird
Speaker 1: was because the writer himself was gay, and that was
Speaker 1: the movie Bright of Chucky. Uh so amazing example. Luck. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like where's this going? I love it. It's a
Speaker 1: big left field line. So if you watch specifically the
Speaker 1: Child's Play series, it gets really queer. The second like
Speaker 1: Don Mancini starts to gain more control because like, first
Speaker 1: of all, he's the reason why the script worked Initially, Um,
Speaker 1: there's a real mess first and then he went in
Speaker 1: and fixed it. And then he basically has been like
Speaker 1: the same writer for everything and then took more creative
Speaker 1: control on once Bright of Chucky came out, and that
Speaker 1: was like, if you watch it, it's very like especially
Speaker 1: for like young me as like a closeted bisexual woman,
Speaker 1: Like it had all of my little flags of just like, hey,
Speaker 1: I know you're watching this because like it's it's very campy.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a very deliberate casting, and like Jennifer
Speaker 1: Tilly the sequel after that has John Waters and it
Speaker 1: like it it knows and like Bright of Chucky was
Speaker 1: also the first time I saw a gay character and
Speaker 1: horror that was just gay. Like it's he's the best friend,
Speaker 1: but he's not even the sassy best friend. He's just
Speaker 1: the best friend that is also gay, and like you know,
Speaker 1: is just there and like everyone dies in in a
Speaker 1: Chucky movie because that's what it is, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you have this year dem devable slasher. Everyone dies and
Speaker 1: the way slashes are set up, like you're fully expecting
Speaker 1: any character that's introduced to be queer to be like
Speaker 1: the one that gets like the most brutal punishment. It's
Speaker 1: usually when the middle of like doing something gay. Uh,
Speaker 1: And it's just like a little bit more cruel and
Speaker 1: often sexualized than it is in other places. And David
Speaker 1: is just David until lenatably gets hit by a truck
Speaker 1: because he's like, you know, in the middle of a standoff,
Speaker 1: and yes, he gets hit by a truck, but he
Speaker 1: dies like the same way everyone else does. And it's
Speaker 1: just being a character. And I know that, Like Don's
Speaker 1: Vancini when he wrote that, wasn't like I'm punishing David.
Speaker 1: David's just David versus when like, if a street guy
Speaker 1: wrote that exact scene, I feel weirder because he doesn't
Speaker 1: have that like intent knowledge and like he doesn't have
Speaker 1: that informed decision and you could do if like if
Speaker 1: a gay person wrote this, I wouldn't feel the same.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't help that Delphine has killed in Lingerie
Speaker 1: for some reason, like come on, how many her death
Speaker 1: scene feels really exploitative? Then that way, And then I
Speaker 1: also pulled a quote from the director Dave it light licked.
Speaker 1: It's just a lot of consonants all at once. But
Speaker 1: um he said about this relationship quote, the relationship was
Speaker 1: flipped before I came on board. It was a great idea.
Speaker 1: You always have to find ways to contemporize these stories,
Speaker 1: reach bigger audiences and be provocative in your storytelling. End
Speaker 1: quote provocative. Okay, that's interesting in in citing the word provocative. Right,
Speaker 1: So the the intent there with like the direction and
Speaker 1: again with the writing choice, and again like if it's
Speaker 1: a matter of if this writing choice is made responsibly
Speaker 1: and that character is given more just like thought and
Speaker 1: care and development, and she isn't like Fridged for no reason.
Speaker 1: It's just not like it's just I don't know. It's like,
Speaker 1: with all due respect to this team, these are like
Speaker 1: you collaborators of Michael Bay and Zack Snyder's they're ill
Speaker 1: equipped to to make what I think is like a
Speaker 1: good idea here, but they're ill equipped to give it
Speaker 1: the breathing room and the you know, just kind of
Speaker 1: like respect that any storyline deserves, yeah, to make that
Speaker 1: informed decision, because the thing is like, all right, let's
Speaker 1: say Delphine has to die because you know it's a
Speaker 1: spy movie, and you know, it's like you play the
Speaker 1: spy game, you die. Whatever. She could have been like
Speaker 1: dispatched the way any of the men in the movie
Speaker 1: had been, like very much just like so many dudes,
Speaker 1: they're like shot through their coat, they're thrown down a
Speaker 1: flight of stairs. It's treated so much differently. We're like,
Speaker 1: you know, they're not they're not pretty during any of that,
Speaker 1: because you never are when you're being shot in the back.
Speaker 1: Yet like even like the manner of this where it's
Speaker 1: like there was no knife and bullet involved because in
Speaker 1: strangulation you keep a pretty body. It's the kind of
Speaker 1: choices that are made where it's like, well, she still
Speaker 1: has to be beautiful, and it's like, why she's a spy.
Speaker 1: She's a spy like everyone else has. She could have
Speaker 1: just had a spy death right if she has to
Speaker 1: die for whatever reason, I would have preferred. It's like,
Speaker 1: for genre reasons, I get what she dies, but it
Speaker 1: was the way that she died. It was like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: there were too many deliberate choices in like overkilling a woman,
Speaker 1: an attractive woman, like do any other character death Delphine
Speaker 1: could have had that, yeah, yeah, And then adding the
Speaker 1: barrier gaze trope on top of that is just like
Speaker 1: none of this is working. And then another aspect of
Speaker 1: it is that a lot of viewers of this movie
Speaker 1: accused it of of queer baiting, especially because the queer
Speaker 1: sex scene is featured very heavily in the trailer in
Speaker 1: the marketing. Again, it's the other thing where it's like
Speaker 1: and in fact, like I rewatched the trailer just to
Speaker 1: just to see it with my own eyes, And basically
Speaker 1: the entire sex scene that is in the movie is
Speaker 1: also in the trailer. They barely even edited it down
Speaker 1: because the sex scene in the movie isn't that long,
Speaker 1: but they include almost all of it in the trailer,
Speaker 1: implying that this romantic subplot takes up way more real
Speaker 1: estate in the movie than it actually does because it's
Speaker 1: very little of the movie. They should have explained the
Speaker 1: Cold War in the trailer that um, and then just
Speaker 1: like in addition to to the queer bating conversation, a
Speaker 1: lot of people just noted that this sex scene between
Speaker 1: the two women is framed in such a way to
Speaker 1: appeal to the male gaze, which kind of harkens back
Speaker 1: to the conversation we were having earlier. I'm curious about
Speaker 1: everyone's takes on that because again, it's like, this is
Speaker 1: not my genre. So I'm like, when I think of
Speaker 1: action movie sex scene, I don't really know what to think.
Speaker 1: So I I I saw that many people had that
Speaker 1: issue with the scene, and it is definitely like a
Speaker 1: gazey hell scene, like it feels music video in the
Speaker 1: way it shot. My question is is that how a
Speaker 1: sex scene in an action movie would normally be shot?
Speaker 1: Is this normal for the genre? Like I didn't know
Speaker 1: where to like where to kind of fall there because
Speaker 1: I was out of my element genre wise. I think
Speaker 1: it looks like a you know, a softcore like music video.
Speaker 1: But I'm like maybe that happens in the genre exclusively.
Speaker 1: I don't know, so a little I hate using the
Speaker 1: words hotake, but like I personally like I enjoy it
Speaker 1: because it's very much just one of those just like
Speaker 1: hell yeah, I love watching girls make out, um, and
Speaker 1: it is like super stylized. But I was like sitting
Speaker 1: here thinking about it, and I was just like, what
Speaker 1: would this look like in a different era with a
Speaker 1: different star, And I was just like, let's do Schwarzenegger
Speaker 1: stallone any of those guys. There would have been like
Speaker 1: a long scene where he's sitting on a bed or
Speaker 1: are sitting in a chair and she's like doing a
Speaker 1: coy little strip tease. Uh, and it's just like a
Speaker 1: lot of him like fully addressed, but she's naked and uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's the whole walk to the bed and then
Speaker 1: they're having sex and he's on the bottom and we
Speaker 1: only see his chest um, and it's just her bouncing
Speaker 1: on top and it's boobs. So like the second I
Speaker 1: put someone else in it, and I'm like, yeah, the
Speaker 1: entire thing like hits differently because like in my head,
Speaker 1: I also remembered it as far more gratuitous because of
Speaker 1: the conversation around it and then like rewatching it now,
Speaker 1: and I was just like, yeah, that's just kind of
Speaker 1: a few seconds and we're kind of far away and
Speaker 1: they're both like equally naked and just both participants in
Speaker 1: this versus like the way I usually see it, where
Speaker 1: it's just like the girl performing for the guy and
Speaker 1: then they have sex and then I'm only it's it's
Speaker 1: just her boob and her her boob. There's two of them,
Speaker 1: her boobs and her butt the whole time. So like
Speaker 1: that was one thing that I was like thinking about
Speaker 1: because I'm like, place it anywhere else and we're getting
Speaker 1: like a full strip tease. Sure, yeah, it does. It
Speaker 1: does feel less again, like hyper sexualized and exploitative of
Speaker 1: if it were like a hetero sex sex scene. I
Speaker 1: just feel like I was, like I wrote down, like
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that all sex scenes in all action movies
Speaker 1: are kind of corny and kind of like very like
Speaker 1: burn noner like, which is what it felt. I don't
Speaker 1: I don't know. I was kind of like, I, I
Speaker 1: mean the same sort of vibe as you've been asked
Speaker 1: the room, like I I want to see women making out,
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm all for it, and you don't normally
Speaker 1: see it in this genre, especially with a woman as
Speaker 1: the protagonist. And in some ways you're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: so it's a queer couple getting the like corny, horny
Speaker 1: action movie treatment. But I also can see why people
Speaker 1: would be frustrated with them. Yeah, it's it's very much
Speaker 1: like both stances make sense, and it's it's the eighties.
Speaker 1: The eighties had so many like bonker stylized sex scenes,
Speaker 1: like all a top gun with like the silhouetted body
Speaker 1: right right where You're like, this is just a goofy
Speaker 1: sex genre. I don't know. I mean my person confused. No,
Speaker 1: it is. It's like I'm like, oh, I'm embarrassed for everybody,
Speaker 1: but I'm also like horny for everybody, So it's confused.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean that's the thing, like my personal
Speaker 1: opinion on it. If I'm like taking off my bech
Speaker 1: Dol goggles and just like watching it as a sex scene,
Speaker 1: I was like, damn, this is hot. These two hot
Speaker 1: people are rubbing up on each other and it's really
Speaker 1: hot to look at. And is it inherently male gaze
Speaker 1: because it's a male director, a male cinematographer, et cetera.
Speaker 1: I can't explain why I knew it was shot by
Speaker 1: a man when I saw it, but I mean I
Speaker 1: feel like it is like no, you know, but it
Speaker 1: also like I think that there is like this kind
Speaker 1: of discussion to be had about like feminist movies should
Speaker 1: you know, be inclusive of women having sex and like
Speaker 1: enjoying sex and like showing that, like, k this like
Speaker 1: a good well shot sex scene like that can be
Speaker 1: really great, And like I feel like there's this kind
Speaker 1: of common stereotype of like feminists don't want to see
Speaker 1: women have sex in movies at all, And it's like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I just I just wanted to be like a shot well,
Speaker 1: I wanted to like make sense and not be like
Speaker 1: pandering to like horny exactly, something I actually really appreciated,
Speaker 1: which like, again, this is bare minimum stuff here, but um,
Speaker 1: when you're so starved for particular representations, you're like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, I can't believe I saw this is They're
Speaker 1: they're like on a bed, making out, kissing, fooling around.
Speaker 1: You see. I think it's Charlie's hand go in between
Speaker 1: Delphine's legs to like stimulate her clitteress guess what I've
Speaker 1: never fucking seen in a heterosex scene in an action
Speaker 1: movie is a man stimulating a woman's flow knowing where
Speaker 1: or what it is. Yeah, exactly what we're doing anything
Speaker 1: before entering first, Like I brought it up before, but
Speaker 1: like I go back to Bound for like sex between
Speaker 1: women so much because like the Wachowski sisters were so
Speaker 1: fucking smart in that they were like, we're bringing a
Speaker 1: like feminist sex expert onto set, who's going to like
Speaker 1: help consult on the best way that we can do this.
Speaker 1: And also just like how lesbians like touch each other
Speaker 1: and like how they're going to do this, And it's
Speaker 1: like a it's like a long gratuitous sex scene, but
Speaker 1: it's so like not under that gaze because it's so
Speaker 1: informed and they really did think about like a bringing
Speaker 1: in consult and be like both actresses in that scene
Speaker 1: are so comfortable and so like we are actresses that
Speaker 1: are being directed and like we have a lot of
Speaker 1: control of the situation that the end product is really hot.
Speaker 1: That scene is very important to me. I still have
Speaker 1: to watch I have not seen Bound, but it's my
Speaker 1: favorite movie. It's really really good. Come back on the
Speaker 1: show and talk about it with us. Yeah, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it's I guess where I fell in the
Speaker 1: sex scene is I understand where the criticism was coming from.
Speaker 1: But it was corny and horny in a way that
Speaker 1: felt true to the genre, not to I mean, it's
Speaker 1: like I'm in no way handing it to the cinematographer
Speaker 1: of Transformers Dark of the Moon. Don't get me wrong,
Speaker 1: this is not Yeah. I didn't feel like a I
Speaker 1: don't know, like a WATERSHD moment of like wow, but
Speaker 1: it was like it was a hot scene with sex.
Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, like I almost subject more to
Speaker 1: how how much the trailer, you know, made it seem
Speaker 1: like this is the movie than than the actual scene
Speaker 1: in the actual movie, because it's such a blip, such
Speaker 1: a blip. I'm way more kind of annoyed that Delphine
Speaker 1: ended up being such a kind of like nothing of
Speaker 1: a character when she should have been a something of
Speaker 1: a character than the sex scene. She had so much
Speaker 1: build up. She there's like both on like what the
Speaker 1: actress could do and also what they like put into
Speaker 1: the movie, like those little bits of dialogue we get
Speaker 1: out of her, Like we deserved more from Delphine. Agree,
Speaker 1: heart agree, But that's what you get when you have
Speaker 1: a movie directed by a man, a screenplay written by
Speaker 1: a man, adapted from a graphic novel by a man
Speaker 1: who didn't even include that character as a woman to
Speaker 1: begin with. So so that's that's the thing that ultimately
Speaker 1: is frustrating for me about this movie is like I
Speaker 1: enjoyed it, and the I mean, the action alone makes
Speaker 1: this movie worth watching. If you're going for the plot,
Speaker 1: probably skip it because the plot makes no fucking sense,
Speaker 1: not unless you're a Cold War scholar. And even then,
Speaker 1: and even then maybe it's wrong. I have no idea,
Speaker 1: we can't we couldn't tell you. But like, the action
Speaker 1: is so good, and it's so clear that you're in
Speaker 1: the hands of experts in terms of shooting and executing
Speaker 1: a really really cool action movie. But it's so like
Speaker 1: boys boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, and if you
Speaker 1: look at their background, what do they do? They work
Speaker 1: with other boys, and it's just like, Yeah, this director
Speaker 1: also directed Deadpool Deadpool too, as well as the music
Speaker 1: video for Ashes by Celene Dione. What I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: very fascinated by David. I mean, he seems like, I mean,
Speaker 1: what a story, what a life. He has done so
Speaker 1: much shit. He has an incredibly cool and kind of
Speaker 1: like pretty singular career. Yeah, I just I don't. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess in this situation, I wonder why. And it's
Speaker 1: kind of a non issue because it's like, well, Charlie's
Speaker 1: chose her director, she chose the team she wanted, so
Speaker 1: who are we right? Like, there is a woman at
Speaker 1: the top of this production, but I do wish that
Speaker 1: there were more women included in meaningful roles. There are,
Speaker 1: there are several female producers on the project. But I
Speaker 1: just I guess, my I don't see why this screenplay
Speaker 1: needed to be written by a guy, Like I don't
Speaker 1: think there's certain things where I'm like for action purposes,
Speaker 1: I understand why she chose who she shows. I feel
Speaker 1: like this movie really would have benefited from a female
Speaker 1: writer working on it, female writer, female stone a photographer. Uh,
Speaker 1: this movie was edited by a woman, which is pretty cool. Uh.
Speaker 1: And this is an Icelandic name that I will almost
Speaker 1: certainly absolutely butcher but um but try Elisabet ronald Or.
Speaker 1: I feel like with a lot of Icelandic names, the
Speaker 1: e does more than I expect it to do. So
Speaker 1: I always botch it. Yeah, we also can't say David. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was struggling on that one. But yeah, like the
Speaker 1: second you have more women involved like making some of
Speaker 1: these choices. It's how I know I said it once before,
Speaker 1: but it's how we get Birds of Prey. It's how
Speaker 1: we get that hair time moment. It's it's it's how
Speaker 1: we get something where it's just like, all right, this
Speaker 1: feels more informed. It's like the night and day difference
Speaker 1: in Harley's like costuming to where it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: she still gets to be like cute and thought e,
Speaker 1: but it's like in a way that makes sense to
Speaker 1: her because she's wearing like sneakers where like one of
Speaker 1: the things I did note about this movie, like the wardrobing,
Speaker 1: is Lorraine is wearing high heels in almost every scene
Speaker 1: and it's like you can't fight and what come on?
Speaker 1: So I was like, that's a little I'm not sure
Speaker 1: about that, but I mean it looks cool, but it's
Speaker 1: also not practical nor realistic. But it's also an action movie,
Speaker 1: so I d K. This is a very white movie.
Speaker 1: Um everyone is white in it, yes, the end, like
Speaker 1: everyone everyone, and and it's like don't tell me there
Speaker 1: were only white people living in Berlin. Don't tell me
Speaker 1: you couldn't have like diversified the agents, Like there's no
Speaker 1: reason that both of the agents interviewing Charlie's had to
Speaker 1: be white. Like it's just it's one of those things
Speaker 1: where it's just like and you know, there's always gonna
Speaker 1: be some words like it was Europe, but like we
Speaker 1: could to spend her disbelief that like all of the
Speaker 1: diagenic music is playing simultaneously in the just like this
Speaker 1: really weird week that she's having, we can't like throw
Speaker 1: in someone else. And it's like there's always been people
Speaker 1: who aren't white in Berlin, like Berlin is a super
Speaker 1: divers Ah, It's it's really annoying. Yeah, there's no need.
Speaker 1: Does anyone have any other thoughts about the film? Does
Speaker 1: anyone notice when John Goodman was wearing a hat? I'm kidding,
Speaker 1: I don't have any film honestly, I would just say,
Speaker 1: I just want more of Charlie's doing this forever, Like
Speaker 1: clearly it's what she wants to do. She like her
Speaker 1: affinity for martial arts is one of my favorite things
Speaker 1: because she's just slowly like picking up all of these
Speaker 1: different skills that makes her both an incredible performer, but
Speaker 1: just like, good god, how intimidating could someone be? Or
Speaker 1: it's just like, I know, I don't know if she
Speaker 1: knows kype Awera, but I'm going to assume that she
Speaker 1: does probably. But I just I want more Western action stars.
Speaker 1: I want more women in action. I want more people
Speaker 1: that I actually like learn and like their own fight coreo.
Speaker 1: And I also want more like older actors to be
Speaker 1: able to because it's such a bummer that like a
Speaker 1: lot of these actors have been around forever doing direct
Speaker 1: to video and now that they're actually like starting to
Speaker 1: like get their flowers and they're older, I'm like, I
Speaker 1: still want them to be involved in their forties fifties.
Speaker 1: I don't care. Yeah, God, I was like Charlie's is like,
Speaker 1: Charlie's should be an action star into her like seventies
Speaker 1: and eighties if she wants to. Certainly hasn't stopped American
Speaker 1: action stars being like, yeah, look at Bruce willis expendable, right,
Speaker 1: and also none of the fighting is good in the expendables. No,
Speaker 1: I would be very excited too. I also saw that
Speaker 1: um Atomic Blonde or Lorraine might enter the john Wick
Speaker 1: universe at some point and that they too might intersect, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: that would be kind of cool. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: would be stoked to see a sequel for this, and
Speaker 1: I would, honestly, I mean, I would love to see
Speaker 1: action Charlie's in a movie directed and written by women
Speaker 1: who excel in the action genre. That would be like
Speaker 1: god tear because she's fucking yes. Oh. My last thought
Speaker 1: was the title of this movie, which is reducing a
Speaker 1: woman to her hair color. Um, isn't it an existing term?
Speaker 1: Is that? I don't know. I'm not sure. Isn't it?
Speaker 1: Is it? Or is it a play on like atomic bomb? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I get My thing was like, I mean, john Wick
Speaker 1: wasn't called john Wick has dark brown hair? Yeah? Maybe
Speaker 1: it should have been. Maybe it should have been, especially
Speaker 1: because like the graphic novel was based that this movie
Speaker 1: was based on is called The Coldest City. So it's
Speaker 1: it's changing it too from what I can tell the
Speaker 1: color of the hair of the protagonist. But yeah, and
Speaker 1: it had the same name as the graphic novel for
Speaker 1: a while. I'm wondering when in development it changed, because
Speaker 1: you even see a nod to it at the end.
Speaker 1: Credits where it like comes up and he goes password
Speaker 1: and it types in like the Coldest War and like
Speaker 1: it unlocks the credits. And that's because that was like
Speaker 1: the original name for like however long before some producer
Speaker 1: was like I want this. That does sound like something
Speaker 1: a studio would do to be like wait a second,
Speaker 1: like get her pretty hair. Yeah, it's very studio note Anyway,
Speaker 1: that was just my final thought. Does it pass the
Speaker 1: back adults past? It does? Between Delphine and the rain, Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: they do talk about Percival and just maybe some other men.
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's there's a pretty long conversation where they're
Speaker 1: where Dolphin's like, I don't even know what I'm doing?
Speaker 1: How do you? How do you spy? You're talking about
Speaker 1: how little she wants to be a spy, and like
Speaker 1: the overarching story is just Lorraine talking about her day. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, listen to women talk about their days.
Speaker 1: They don't think they actually want to be spies. After all?
Speaker 1: Too late r I P. Let's let's go to the
Speaker 1: nipple scale. Oh yes, our nipple scale zero to five
Speaker 1: nipples based on an examination of intersectional feminism. I think
Speaker 1: I'll give this two and a half or three. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's too harsh, maybe that's too generous. I truly never
Speaker 1: know what to rate any movie on our scale, but
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's really cool that you have
Speaker 1: this what was like a box office success. A lot
Speaker 1: of people saw this movie, female driven action movie with
Speaker 1: really really cool fight choreography and really really cool action
Speaker 1: and just like solidifying Charlie's as a legitimate action movie star. Um,
Speaker 1: some you know, missteps were I just I think while
Speaker 1: it's a step forward to include a queer character as
Speaker 1: the hero of an action movie, it doesn't necessarily mean
Speaker 1: that that representation was like the most responsible. Especially it's
Speaker 1: like the use of the different tropes and things like that. Um,
Speaker 1: there's still a ways to go, but the fact that
Speaker 1: it is there, it feels like a you know, we
Speaker 1: talked about this a lot where there's a an unfortunate
Speaker 1: need for like stepping stone movies that like pave the
Speaker 1: way for more responsible and inclusive representation. So that's what
Speaker 1: this feels like. I think that there definitely could have
Speaker 1: been any diversity and instead it's just a bunch of
Speaker 1: white people. So you know, there's some some things that
Speaker 1: I would change to improve this movie. But uh and
Speaker 1: I mean, gosh, someone take another pass at the script
Speaker 1: and make it less confusing, please, Yeah, Like, let's cut
Speaker 1: out a couple of character, a couple of bearded guys.
Speaker 1: I was thinking, So I did not Okay, another thing.
Speaker 1: I had no idea who she was killing in that
Speaker 1: last scene. I was like, who is this? Huh? That
Speaker 1: was the main Soviet bad guy, but he's only in
Speaker 1: a couple of scenes before that, pretty briefly. And then
Speaker 1: there's another Soviet bad guy who then dies halfway through,
Speaker 1: and it's like, can't you just combine those two characters?
Speaker 1: I thought it was him, and I was like, I
Speaker 1: thought he was dead there, And when I looked it up,
Speaker 1: it was like, oh, no, she could he was at
Speaker 1: a restaurant earlier. I was like, yes, uh yeah, But
Speaker 1: but I was like I was supposed to care about that.
Speaker 1: That was confusing. Too many people to look after. There's
Speaker 1: there's too many men to keep you. I mean, I
Speaker 1: I guess I can, um, you know, empathize with Lorraine too,
Speaker 1: because she was able to keep all these men, you know,
Speaker 1: like straight in her head. I couldn't couldn't do the job,
Speaker 1: No wonder she needed the list. She was like, who
Speaker 1: the funk are all these people? But yeah, so you
Speaker 1: know that has nothing to do with, you know, how
Speaker 1: we examine the movie, but I still like, well, it
Speaker 1: kind of does, because I'm like, I wish there were
Speaker 1: just like better movies that are going to like stand
Speaker 1: the test of time and that people are going to
Speaker 1: like watch over and over and over again because they're
Speaker 1: just like such good movies that star women. I don't
Speaker 1: know how, like how much longevity this movie will have
Speaker 1: because it is kind of like, you know, there's some
Speaker 1: rocky storytelling happening. So it's like, not only do we
Speaker 1: have to represent women responsibly in movies, but like make
Speaker 1: sure the stories that are being told are like good
Speaker 1: and like that people will like them and want to
Speaker 1: keep rewatching them so that we just like have those
Speaker 1: movies to to revisit and connect with as audiences. So
Speaker 1: with all that in mind, I'll still give it three nipples,
Speaker 1: and I'll give one to Charlie's I will give one
Speaker 1: to Delphine because she deserved more, and you know what,
Speaker 1: I'll give one to John Goodman's hat. Yeah I was
Speaker 1: doing some real acting. Yeah, it really stole the show.
Speaker 1: I really did I'll go. I guess I'll go three
Speaker 1: as well. I'm tended to go a little lower, but
Speaker 1: I can't fully articulate WI, so I won't. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I I think that the action in this movie is
Speaker 1: sucking incredible. Charlie's carries it the action sequences for the
Speaker 1: most part, except how Delphine is killed. Um. I thought,
Speaker 1: we're like really really cool and just like in like
Speaker 1: American movies, like you just don't get a lot of it.
Speaker 1: And and I loved that Charlie's was like the driving
Speaker 1: force behind getting this project made and getting it made
Speaker 1: the way she wanted it. Like those stories are always
Speaker 1: so cool and like give you hope. Um, even though
Speaker 1: the you know, precedent of all you know having to
Speaker 1: already be ridiculously successful in order to get a movie
Speaker 1: the way you want it made is frustrating and not
Speaker 1: always I mean, I love using that little Wes Anderson
Speaker 1: anecdote of like someone just being like, here's ten million dollars,
Speaker 1: see what you've come up with? Um, But she, you know,
Speaker 1: she she got it made, she got it made the
Speaker 1: way she wanted to, and she kicks fucking ass in it. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I'm deducting for I didn't like how Delphin's character
Speaker 1: was kind of like slowly scaled down, scaled down and
Speaker 1: then killed in lingerie um in a way that would
Speaker 1: you know, keep her looking a very particular way when
Speaker 1: the body was found. And it's just kind of a
Speaker 1: such a sausage party on the on the production side,
Speaker 1: and in terms of I think, particularly with the writer
Speaker 1: where like like we were talking about I just a
Speaker 1: straight guy being like would it be cool? Like is
Speaker 1: just you can tell? I don't know? That is literally
Speaker 1: what they did. They're like, yeah, this is gonna be
Speaker 1: hot and cool and provocative if we make women kiss
Speaker 1: each other the word provocative. You're like, okay, So they
Speaker 1: just like we just need other voices in the room here, Like,
Speaker 1: uh so yeah, I'll go I'll go with three. And
Speaker 1: it was a fun movie, fucking confusing as hell. Uh
Speaker 1: but like for in terms of the action, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 1: So I will give a nipple to Charlie's and I
Speaker 1: would give a nipple to Bill Scarce Guard, and I'll
Speaker 1: give a nipple to Delphine Vanessa. What about you? Um,
Speaker 1: I mean, y'all covered a lot of the same reasons.
Speaker 1: For like the reading, I want to give it um
Speaker 1: although I am, I'm giving it a three and a
Speaker 1: half nipples, And there's a there's a specific reason for
Speaker 1: the half and that's because anybody that's ever just like
Speaker 1: watched a lot of like action martial arts punching knows
Speaker 1: that like a lot of like male action stars get
Speaker 1: to have their like direct to video movies or like
Speaker 1: the action is dope, but the story stinks and it's
Speaker 1: kind of middling, and yeah, you know what, I want
Speaker 1: female action stars to also be able to comfortably live
Speaker 1: in just like mediocre and may because we either have
Speaker 1: to be incredible or we don't exist. And like, honestly,
Speaker 1: if Charlie's does a million movies where it's just like, uh,
Speaker 1: are we there yet, but with punching, because you know,
Speaker 1: she just decides to do the direct to video action thing,
Speaker 1: then like cool, I want that for women to So
Speaker 1: the half star is because I want. I I love
Speaker 1: any opportunity in which women just gets to get to
Speaker 1: have an thing. And that's fine, Yes, that's very true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: getting mediocrity accessible to everyone should be a priority. Dude,
Speaker 1: get to do it all the time, too much, amazing, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. You come back anytime.
Speaker 1: I would love to. This is so fun. And tell
Speaker 1: us about the podcast. Oh yeah, Kicking and Screaming is
Speaker 1: a podcast I co host with my husband. I actually
Speaker 1: came in as the screaming and because he was the
Speaker 1: one with the martial arts background, and like loved it,
Speaker 1: but then I ended up just falling deeply in love
Speaker 1: with both genres. But basically what we do is, uh,
Speaker 1: we take either a horror movie or an action martial
Speaker 1: arts movie, and one of us picks one, and then
Speaker 1: the other one has to counter with one of the
Speaker 1: other genre to make a double feature, because frequently, if
Speaker 1: you like one, you're going to like the other one.
Speaker 1: A lot of horror people don't realize they love martial
Speaker 1: arts yet, and a lot of people that are like
Speaker 1: into kung fu movies don't realize that they like horror yet.
Speaker 1: So for example, like there was one were I did
Speaker 1: pick Bright of Chucky and he picked The Heroes of
Speaker 1: the East, which is another really good one with a
Speaker 1: female action star at the Helm, which was like a
Speaker 1: marriage based one. But I end up finding out stuff
Speaker 1: I didn't know that i'd love yet, or just examining
Speaker 1: stuff that I already dug and it's just a fun
Speaker 1: little genre party. So awesome, thank you. And then where
Speaker 1: can people follow you online? Your social media? Anything else
Speaker 1: you want to plug? Oh? Yeah, you can find me
Speaker 1: under at ness grittin it's still my ex husband's name.
Speaker 1: Any s g R I T T O N on
Speaker 1: all forms of social media. Uh. You can find the
Speaker 1: actual podcast, kick screen Pod under kick screen Pod on
Speaker 1: all firms of social media. And if you're into horror,
Speaker 1: I just did a series where I interviewed some incredible
Speaker 1: women filmmakers and horror for a Women in Horror series
Speaker 1: and it's one of my favorite series of interviews I've
Speaker 1: ever done. You can watch me slowly fall in love
Speaker 1: with every single one of these filmmakers. That's awesome. Oh
Speaker 1: that's so cool. Uh. And then you can follow us
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram at bechtel Cast. You can subscribe
Speaker 1: to our Matreon at patreon dot com slash becktel Cast.
Speaker 1: It get to you two bonus episodes a month. It's
Speaker 1: five dollars. And then there's also our entire back catalog
Speaker 1: of bonuses. So scoot on over to Patreon and subscribe.
Speaker 1: Good scoot. Just to reminder Jamie that um I am
Speaker 1: defecting from the Bechtel Cast. Uh. You can find us
Speaker 1: on at Behind the Bastards UM just where our podcast
Speaker 1: is now okay by everyone,