Speaker 1: Hey, fucker's what up? It's Christina Hutchinson and Karin Fisher.
Speaker 1: You're about to listen to a clip from our show,
Speaker 1: Guys We Funck, the anti slut shaming podcast. On this episode,
Speaker 1: we do an interview with Dr Annasalter. Uh. We talk
Speaker 1: This is a heavy one and I'm I'm gonna be like,
Speaker 1: we talk about fun stuff. No we don't. We talk
Speaker 1: about treating child sex offenders. But it's a conversation that
Speaker 1: no one wants to have, and it was it literally
Speaker 1: took us like a decade to even get a guest
Speaker 1: who has a level of expertise in this. So I
Speaker 1: highly recommend you listen if you want the world to
Speaker 1: be a better place, and if not, it's completely on you.
Speaker 1: Uh to hear the entire episode. You can subscribe to
Speaker 1: Luminary and you can now do it through Apple the
Speaker 1: Apple app. It's Apple dot ceo slash GWF. That's Apple
Speaker 1: dot ceo slash GWF. First of all, what constitutes somebody
Speaker 1: as a high risk sex offender? According to the law.
Speaker 1: To be put in a civil commitment program in most states,
Speaker 1: you have to have a diagnosis that predisposes you commit
Speaker 1: sexual offenses. For example, depression does not, schizophrenia typically does not,
Speaker 1: but pedophilia does. And you have to be more likely
Speaker 1: than not to reoffend. Okay, and so what do you
Speaker 1: what measurements do you use to assess this? Now, the
Speaker 1: whole field has grown up of assessment measures, but uh,
Speaker 1: they all have one glaring problem, and that is they
Speaker 1: measure the likelihood of getting caught. They don't measure the
Speaker 1: likelihood of reoffending. Because you said you've gotten letters, emails
Speaker 1: from people all over the world, The truth is somewhere
Speaker 1: between ten to eighteen percent of children of girls who
Speaker 1: are sexually abused ever tell anyone during their childhood's. In fact,
Speaker 1: even adult rape, only roughly about four of people who
Speaker 1: are sexually assaulted actually to the police. The police send
Speaker 1: about thirty of those on to prosecution. And the bottom
Speaker 1: line is that maybe one to two percent of rapists
Speaker 1: get convicted. Yeah, it's such, it's so staggering. We received
Speaker 1: so many emails from people who were raped or for
Speaker 1: people who are molested, that I ended up um signing
Speaker 1: up for this program at Bellevue Hospital in New York
Speaker 1: City is one of the few public hospitals that the
Speaker 1: city has there's a volunteer advocate program where uh, you
Speaker 1: get trained for forty hours to essentially be a part
Speaker 1: of a person's medical team who comes into the e
Speaker 1: er for domestic violence or sexual assault, and they they
Speaker 1: went over as part of this training, the like the
Speaker 1: Manhattan DA came in and explained to us all these
Speaker 1: One of the one of the main changes since the
Speaker 1: Me too movement resurfaced was that they keep the DNA kits.
Speaker 1: You don't have to press charges if you get one,
Speaker 1: which in New York City that that had recently changed,
Speaker 1: and they can keep your kit for twenty years, so
Speaker 1: you have that long to do anything about it. So
Speaker 1: that's that was at least nice. But my god, So
Speaker 1: why I'm so kind of obsessed with, uh, why does
Speaker 1: this happen? Like there's I'm sure I know that there's
Speaker 1: a number of factors, and one of them is that
Speaker 1: we're not talking about it. But my curiosity has kind
Speaker 1: of led me to this place where I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to offenders. I we haven't. We've received emails from
Speaker 1: them because I made it known. Statistically, somebody listening to
Speaker 1: this podcast has to have been a sexual offender, had
Speaker 1: to have raped somebody like statistically, and we did receive
Speaker 1: some anonymous emails, some guys creating fake email accounts to
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about what went into it,
Speaker 1: and it it oddly seemed like they wanted someone to
Speaker 1: talk to about it that wasn't going to call the
Speaker 1: cops on them immediately, because I'm like, if you just
Speaker 1: throw people in jail, you're not getting to the bottom
Speaker 1: of it. But some people need to be in jail,
Speaker 1: right yeah, because some people are going to keep on
Speaker 1: doing it if they're if they're not putt in jail.
Speaker 1: There are two main tap roots. There are other tap roots,
Speaker 1: but the big ones are there are some men who
Speaker 1: are just sexually attracted to children. When you talk to them,
Speaker 1: and by now I've talked to hundreds and hundreds of offenders.
Speaker 1: When you talk to him them, they don't understand it
Speaker 1: any more than we do. But when they were ten, eleven, twelve,
Speaker 1: thirteen and other boys were getting sexually attracted to girls
Speaker 1: or two boys their age, they were sexually attracted to
Speaker 1: little kids. Okay, it is there. There is no reason
Speaker 1: to suppose that all of them the less kids. And
Speaker 1: when I train on this, I say, can is there
Speaker 1: anybody in this room that has never had an inappropriate
Speaker 1: sexual thought. Of course, no one raises their hands and
Speaker 1: I and I say, raise your hands. Uh, you're psychotic,
Speaker 1: and there are psychologists outside with heavy medication for you.
Speaker 1: But the truth is everybody admits that they've had an
Speaker 1: appropriate sexual It's not so. I say, what keeps you
Speaker 1: from coming on to your sister's husband. You know you're
Speaker 1: attracted to him, And there's a whole list of breaks
Speaker 1: of things that happen, you know, consequences, empathy for your sister,
Speaker 1: love for your sister, you know what, whatever, whatever, whatever.
Speaker 1: We don't act on every sexual impulse. We make decisions. Now,
Speaker 1: these guys, the guys that I deal with, are not
Speaker 1: the ones who have an attraction to children and think
Speaker 1: it's reprehensible and never act on it. The ones I
Speaker 1: see are the ones who have ten sexual convictions because
Speaker 1: they chose to act on it. So we've been saying,
Speaker 1: is there's a new movement to normalize minor attracted children. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right. It is true that you can't control who
Speaker 1: you're attracted to, but it is not true that you
Speaker 1: can't control what you act on. We do it every
Speaker 1: every single day. So one of the two tap roots
Speaker 1: is sexual attraction to children. They could see Angela Jolie
Speaker 1: walking down the street with a three year old and
Speaker 1: their eyes might sweep immediately to the three year old.
Speaker 1: Uh and and they might start having very graphic sexual thoughts.
Speaker 1: Look at that little kid. I bet his buttocks are
Speaker 1: so YadA YadA, YadA, YadA YadA. The second tap root,
Speaker 1: major tap root is antisocial attitudes and behaviors and beliefs.
Speaker 1: So one of the slides that I use when I train,
Speaker 1: and do you know, obviously I do a lot of
Speaker 1: training on this, And the guy said something about, um,
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to ask women for sex anymore. My
Speaker 1: days of begging to hit on their pussies was over.
Speaker 1: So all the things that matter to most of us,
Speaker 1: like whether the other person is attracted to us or not.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a billion dollar cosmetic industry, because everybody
Speaker 1: wants to be attractive, to look nice, to have someone
Speaker 1: be attracted to them. For most of us, having a
Speaker 1: someone who wants to throw up the thought of having
Speaker 1: sex with us is not a turn on. That's a
Speaker 1: very bad moment in time there for these guys. For
Speaker 1: some of them, they don't care what the other person wants,
Speaker 1: child or adult. They want sex. They have no concept
Speaker 1: of reciprocity. They would define reciprocity is begging, having to
Speaker 1: get permission. Wow, that's the punishment to them, Yes, having
Speaker 1: to ask, Well, I'm a man, why should I have
Speaker 1: to ask? And not even asking, why should I have
Speaker 1: to beg? They can and real men, real men don't beg.
Speaker 1: So anti social attitudes and beliefs and behaviors are a
Speaker 1: second tap root. So what often happens is when a
Speaker 1: mayor is arrested, or a Jerry Sandusky is arrested, or
Speaker 1: or someone who is prominent is arrested, people have a
Speaker 1: great deal of trouble believing it. The miracle in the
Speaker 1: Sandusky case was that there was an adult witness. Had
Speaker 1: that just been children, it could have very easily been
Speaker 1: a very different story. Because people assume that all sex
Speaker 1: offenders are antisocial criminals. And if you're a minister, if
Speaker 1: you're a UH coach, if you're a prominent person in
Speaker 1: the community, if you are a nice person, you couldn't
Speaker 1: possibly be a sex offender. And that's because they don't
Speaker 1: understand that there are two tap roots. You can as
Speaker 1: we know, be a priest and be a sex Now
Speaker 1: those priests aren't out stealing hubcaps on the weekend. They
Speaker 1: are they are not generally criminals. They are people who
Speaker 1: have a sexual attraction to children and who decide to
Speaker 1: act on it. Mm hmm, how well, I have a
Speaker 1: question quickly, do you do you only uh deal with
Speaker 1: an interview with men who exhibit these behaviors or have
Speaker 1: you ever cross come across a woman who exhibits these
Speaker 1: behaviors that like, you know, begging is punishment or that
Speaker 1: they shouldn't have to they should just be owed sex.
Speaker 1: Can they know we see a lot more men, but
Speaker 1: see a lot more men, especially in civil commitment. But
Speaker 1: there's a lot of research to show that the same
Speaker 1: behaviors it and that will get a man convicted will
Speaker 1: not get a woman convicted. People have a great deal
Speaker 1: of trouble believing a woman could commit a sexual assense,
Speaker 1: and they have done vignettes with people where all they
Speaker 1: change is the name and the sex of the offender,
Speaker 1: and uh, it's the differences are astounding in terms of
Speaker 1: they don't think the women should go to jail for
Speaker 1: the same offense, or they will recommend, you know, half
Speaker 1: the number amount of prison time for the women. All
Speaker 1: the facts in these vignettes are exactly the same. The
Speaker 1: only difference is whether it's mail or female. So we
Speaker 1: don't have any in the civil commitment program that I
Speaker 1: do evaluations for now in the Midwest. We don't have
Speaker 1: any women who came in as women. Now we have
Speaker 1: a couple of trends, uh, trans women in the program,
Speaker 1: But who committed the offenses when they before they decided
Speaker 1: to transition, and what kinds of things when when you
Speaker 1: meet with these people you said you meet you will
Speaker 1: meet with upwards of three offenders a week to talk
Speaker 1: about what a month? Oh a month? So what do
Speaker 1: you guys talk about? Like do you do deep dives
Speaker 1: into their experience and their inner workings? Well, my job
Speaker 1: is to determine if they're ready for transition to the
Speaker 1: community or release. That's a big one. Oh yes. And
Speaker 1: how do you find that? Is there doesn't lean one
Speaker 1: way or the other that most of them are or
Speaker 1: are not? And what are what are your criterias? Like
Speaker 1: what are the things that you look out for when
Speaker 1: you talk to them about this? Well, let me go
Speaker 1: back a second talk about the interview, and then I'll
Speaker 1: be happy to talk about that, but I asked them
Speaker 1: about their offenses. I want to see that they've taken
Speaker 1: responsibility for them, that their reports matched the victim's reports,
Speaker 1: and and they often do not. Even years after they've
Speaker 1: been in treatment, they often not. I want to know
Speaker 1: what they're learning and treatment. I want to know ask
Speaker 1: a bunch of relass prevention questions about what's the single
Speaker 1: most important thing in preventing relapse. I go through a
Speaker 1: series of Uh, you know, what are risky situations for you?
Speaker 1: What kind of people are risky for you? How would
Speaker 1: you handle this? How would you handle that? I go
Speaker 1: through a series of sixteen dynamic risk factors such as
Speaker 1: sexual attraction to kids, sexual preoccupation, attraction to sexual violence.
Speaker 1: We do have sadist in this world who are aroused
Speaker 1: by inflicting pain. Uh. I asked them about how they
Speaker 1: justified their behavior. There's a whole list of sixteen. So
Speaker 1: I have a I have a protocol for interviewing them
Speaker 1: and try to get at what they're thinking, processes are
Speaker 1: and how much change they've made. I believe and and
Speaker 1: I this is not an exact figure, but of about
Speaker 1: a hundred and thirty eight men in the program. I
Speaker 1: think we have fourteen and transition. It's it's something, uh
Speaker 1: something like that. So no, not everybody, and some of
Speaker 1: the guys have been there fifteen years. Can they be reformed?
Speaker 1: Because I would imagine if I'm being interviewed by you
Speaker 1: and you're asking me if I'm sexually attracted to kids
Speaker 1: and I want to get the hell out of jail,
Speaker 1: I would say, of course not, or you know, I
Speaker 1: would I would lie. Of course you would, yeah, which
Speaker 1: is why we use something called the plethys mcgrash and
Speaker 1: the able scream, which directly measure sexual interest to pictures
Speaker 1: of kids. Oh there you go. You have something more
Speaker 1: than the honor system going on here and the polygra
Speaker 1: and we'll use the polygraph and we compare what they
Speaker 1: say to to to those uh you know, to the
Speaker 1: to what how they performed on of course you would lie,
Speaker 1: and uh, I'm gonna pretend this is an impressured job.
Speaker 1: I think it's a very difficult impressured job. Huh. Uh.
Speaker 1: I can't say any more than you could, or or
Speaker 1: even an offender could, whether someone is absolutely going to
Speaker 1: reoffend or dot sure, But the criteria under the law
Speaker 1: is less likely than not or more likely than not.
Speaker 1: So you have to understand if we let somebody out
Speaker 1: who has a thirty percent chance of reoffending, Not that
Speaker 1: we can be that exact, because we honestly can't. Out
Speaker 1: of every three one of those is going to reoffend
Speaker 1: right right physically speaking, But the law is correct in
Speaker 1: that that's the only question we can answer sure and
Speaker 1: somewhe imperfectly at that. What a fuckers. I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed an excerpt from our interview with Dr an Assaulter.
Speaker 1: If you want to hear the whole thing and entire
Speaker 1: episodes of Guys Who Sucked, head on over to Apple
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