Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
Speaker 1: so much for tuning in this one that we're all
Speaker 1: pretty excited about. That's our super producer, the one and
Speaker 1: only Mr Max Williams. Give him a hand. Uh, my
Speaker 1: name is Ben. I gotta say I love this one.
Speaker 1: It's it's terrible, it's horrific. I did some research for
Speaker 1: an unrelated project on this, and uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I would say that you and I both are lovers
Speaker 1: of language, right, we're no pun left behind guys. Well,
Speaker 1: then I actually prepared for this episod by not speaking
Speaker 1: for a week, uh, in the hopes that when my
Speaker 1: my mouth opened and I spoke on this episode, out
Speaker 1: would come the original language of Eden, God's intended language
Speaker 1: for humanity. But it turns out I just still speak
Speaker 1: kind of broken English. Well, what what week was that?
Speaker 1: Because you and I were hanging out this weekend? Man, man,
Speaker 1: don't don't come on, man, Let me have my dreams
Speaker 1: very at the very least, my my thin subterfuge. It
Speaker 1: was a bit, man, I was a bit yes, and
Speaker 1: come on, um no, it's true though I I didn't
Speaker 1: do that. But um, it's an interesting concept, isn't it.
Speaker 1: The notion that if you are not exposed any language
Speaker 1: at all, that you may come out with the very
Speaker 1: language that God intended. The implication there being the languages
Speaker 1: somehow passed down from on high and not some sort
Speaker 1: of like learned trait involving, you know, paying attention to
Speaker 1: other people are doing, and that it's a living language,
Speaker 1: that it evolves over time, and you know, different languages
Speaker 1: exist because of different trial and error attempts throughout history.
Speaker 1: Right right right, there was this idea of an ancient
Speaker 1: idea that if humans would stop bothering children with their
Speaker 1: own pesky habits of language, that children would, as you say,
Speaker 1: speak the way that God intended them to. This story
Speaker 1: has has so many threats to pull, but let's start
Speaker 1: with an island that you may not have heard of
Speaker 1: unless you are from Scotland. It's a tiny place. It's
Speaker 1: called inch Keith. The atomology, I think ultimately just means
Speaker 1: wooded aisle, which is a little bit of a down
Speaker 1: because I was hoping there was a guy named Keith
Speaker 1: somewhere in the Island's passed and there was like an
Speaker 1: inch thing going on. But if you go to this aisle,
Speaker 1: this island is about three miles north of Edinburgh, you
Speaker 1: will see that it has you know, it has a
Speaker 1: pretty deep past. It was used to quarantine people suffering
Speaker 1: from contagious sickness, is especially a syphilis which they called,
Speaker 1: get this, the Grand Gore, Grand Gore back in the day.
Speaker 1: That sounds like a muppet villain or something like that,
Speaker 1: like the trash heap you know from Fraggle Rock, or
Speaker 1: like in Dark Crystal. You have to you have to
Speaker 1: the Grand Gore. But the thing this island is most
Speaker 1: famous for nowadays is a very sad and as we
Speaker 1: will find, not unique experiment that is believed to have
Speaker 1: taken place in when then King of Scotland, James the
Speaker 1: Fourth said I gotta do an experiment with as few
Speaker 1: people as possible, and he set up something today, a
Speaker 1: language experiment that remains a fascinating rabbit hole. And what
Speaker 1: we'd like to do is explore a little bit about James,
Speaker 1: who was a smart guy. For the record, going into this,
Speaker 1: it's important to know where you hear all the crazy
Speaker 1: stuff we're gonna say about him. James was a smart
Speaker 1: guy for his time and Uh, maybe not the most ethical.
Speaker 1: Would you agree with that? Yeah? He was. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I gotta give the guy a little slack.
Speaker 1: It was a different time. Well, he didn't necessarily hurt anybody.
Speaker 1: What he did would now be considered incredibly unethical. And
Speaker 1: what he did was take two newborn infant babies, uh
Speaker 1: and sequester them on the island of inch Keith and
Speaker 1: have them raised by mute nursemaids. He would of course
Speaker 1: give them all the things they needed to be nourished physically,
Speaker 1: though not spiritually or like, intellectually or emotionally. Maybe emotionally.
Speaker 1: They probably gave them hugs, but they did not give
Speaker 1: them bedtime stories or you know, sing them songs or anything,
Speaker 1: because they could not speak. The idea being that if
Speaker 1: this happened, supposedly they would naturally, like you said, Ben,
Speaker 1: in the same way the babies can swim out of
Speaker 1: the womb, come out with this language he referred to
Speaker 1: oftentimes as the language of Eden, you know, the first
Speaker 1: language of man, and by manny, we mean like, you know, humankind.
Speaker 1: But let's go a little bit more into the history
Speaker 1: of this island. It is around three miles north of
Speaker 1: Edinburgh in the middle of Scotland's Firth of Fourth area.
Speaker 1: Just a real tongue twister, and it has had a
Speaker 1: bit of a checkered past. In the twelfth century it
Speaker 1: was used as a stopping point for boats and ferries
Speaker 1: going from Edinburgh to Fife, and then a couple of
Speaker 1: centuriears later. It had a strategic position that allowed it
Speaker 1: to be very useful in the Scottish Wars of Independence.
Speaker 1: It was constantly being you know, um besieged by various
Speaker 1: invading English forces. Uh, during the Anglo Scottish Wars. Then
Speaker 1: in the fifteenth century, like you said, Bennett was kind
Speaker 1: of like a plague quarantine island, like that one they
Speaker 1: were trying to send Hannibal Lecture two where you the
Speaker 1: view of a tree, you know, maybe get to walk
Speaker 1: on the beach, all that stuff. But then that was all,
Speaker 1: you know, a subterfuge, as we know you've seen the film.
Speaker 1: But let's go to James the Fourth Now, Ben, what
Speaker 1: say you, yeah, yeah, let's go. So a bit of
Speaker 1: background about our boy. James was born in fourteen seventy
Speaker 1: three on seventeenth of March. So if you just do
Speaker 1: some quick math you'll realize that he was pretty young
Speaker 1: when he did this experiment, okay, And he was King
Speaker 1: of Scotland from fourteen eighty eight until his death in
Speaker 1: September nine, fifteen thirteen. He was just like fifteen when
Speaker 1: some rival nobles who were opposed to his father started
Speaker 1: using him as a figurehead. In a four eight rebellion,
Speaker 1: his father was killed under mysterious circumstances and as kind
Speaker 1: of a a punishment or a penance for somehow playing
Speaker 1: a role in patricide. James the fourth would wear a
Speaker 1: heavy iron chain around his waist for the rest of
Speaker 1: his life. And a lot of this is coming from
Speaker 1: a great little website we'd like to recommend called Undiscovered
Speaker 1: Scotland dot co dot uk. So he got into the
Speaker 1: royalty game pretty early. It's just fifteen when he gets coordinated.
Speaker 1: And one thing that's fascinated about him I always found
Speaker 1: was that he was actually good at his job. You know,
Speaker 1: we're not saying he's a perfect person, right. He took
Speaker 1: to it quickly and was considered to be the most effective, well,
Speaker 1: the first effective monarch out of the Stewart line. Yeah, yep,
Speaker 1: and he expanded the navy. He was known for keeping
Speaker 1: a cool head in military affairs and being a solid leader.
Speaker 1: But as we alluded to earlier, James was also super
Speaker 1: into the arts and sciences. He was a monarch, but
Speaker 1: that wasn't all he was. In fact, he is probably
Speaker 1: out of every other Scottish king, he is the one
Speaker 1: who is most often brought up as being a what
Speaker 1: you would call a renaissance man today. He likes history, poetry, literature, medicine, science.
Speaker 1: He wants to learn about the world. Yep, he licensed
Speaker 1: the very first printing press in Scotland. UM. He was
Speaker 1: a notable patron of the arts. Um he you know,
Speaker 1: helps support numerous you know creators, bards for example, songwriters.
Speaker 1: He even studied, you know, dentistry and surgery. I don't
Speaker 1: know that he hopefully he didn't perform any amateur dental
Speaker 1: or or surgical procedures, but you never know. The king
Speaker 1: he's certainly wasn't beyond the room of possibility. But he
Speaker 1: also was super into alchemy, which I think we're both
Speaker 1: fascinated by as well, been largely from stuff we talked
Speaker 1: about on our other podcast, Stuff that don't want you
Speaker 1: to know. I think we have a whole episode on
Speaker 1: alchemy that's folks to check out in which we almost
Speaker 1: certainly talk about John Damien, who is King James is
Speaker 1: most trusted and you know, supposedly adapt ALcom anybody that
Speaker 1: doesn't well, we'll get to that for sure. Not only
Speaker 1: could you not fly, he pulled kind of a Marty
Speaker 1: McFly kind of situation. Um that we'll get to in
Speaker 1: just a second. But John Damien was you know, what,
Speaker 1: what what what? What James would have considered an adept alchemist.
Speaker 1: What we know today is that was not really a thing.
Speaker 1: It was largely being very good bulleit, being able to
Speaker 1: kind of convince people that you had these abilities. It
Speaker 1: was sort of It's interesting culturally because it straddled that
Speaker 1: line between magic and science, right man. Yeah, Alchemy gave
Speaker 1: the human species a lot of advancements. It's a precursor
Speaker 1: to what we call chemistry today. And they were conducting
Speaker 1: a lot of experiments that may have seemed unorthodox at
Speaker 1: the time and may seem ill informed, but in many ways,
Speaker 1: the alchemists of this era were trailblazers. John Damiens unfortunately
Speaker 1: perhaps most from umber today for an experiment he did
Speaker 1: with flights and this is this is also mentioned in
Speaker 1: article by Paul Anthony Jones, the King of Scotland's peculiar
Speaker 1: language experiment over with our friends of mental flows. Here's
Speaker 1: what Here's what Johnny D did, which is why I'm
Speaker 1: gonna call him. He he thought, you know, well things
Speaker 1: with feathers, birds, many of them can fly. He thought,
Speaker 1: so why don't I get some feathers together and will
Speaker 1: I'll make some wings. They're the size of a man
Speaker 1: for out of chicken feathers. And then I'm gonna jump
Speaker 1: from Sterling Castle whereas he said, he's uh, King James
Speaker 1: is located and he says, you know, I get enough altitude,
Speaker 1: your highness, I'll be able to fly straight through France.
Speaker 1: This was maybe true for a couple of seconds. He
Speaker 1: did reach great speeds, but they were all you know,
Speaker 1: he was. He reached great speed going downward, and he
Speaker 1: broke his leg. He survived, though. Unfortunately, falling and flying
Speaker 1: are not the same thing, even if they both take
Speaker 1: place in the air. Um and I mentioned Marty McFly earlier,
Speaker 1: and I'm referring to the fact that in every iteration
Speaker 1: of Back to the Future, Biff Marty's nemesis ends up
Speaker 1: falling into a pile of manure, showing the history repeats
Speaker 1: itself no matter what you do, or at the very least,
Speaker 1: it often rhymes right, ben um. But that's exactly what happens.
Speaker 1: Told Johnny D. He tumbles out of the sky into
Speaker 1: a massive dung heap. Nothing worse than that, having to
Speaker 1: walk away from a failed experiment covered in excrement, but
Speaker 1: it admittedly did cushion his fall and keep him from dying. Instead,
Speaker 1: he did just suffer a broken leg and uh likely
Speaker 1: a heavily bruised ego, And then he ended up blaming
Speaker 1: the types of feathers on it. Right, What was that? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he said, he said, Look, your Highness, my ideas are solid.
Speaker 1: The hidden feathers I used must have been so attracted
Speaker 1: to that pile is below that it made me crash.
Speaker 1: And what we're saying with this anecdote is that the
Speaker 1: King is an open minded guy. For his time, he
Speaker 1: wants to He wants to pursue stuff. He believes the
Speaker 1: world is both understandable and worth understanding, which is something
Speaker 1: I am principle agree with. But that's chief amongst his
Speaker 1: intellectual interests. The stuff that he really dug was his
Speaker 1: love of language. He spoke multiple languages. This guy spoke English, Latin, French, Italian, Spanish,
Speaker 1: she threw some Flemish in there, and people were amazed
Speaker 1: that he wasn't He wasn't putting up a front about this.
Speaker 1: He really did speak these languages, and as a linguist,
Speaker 1: he was constantly asking himself, how do people notice speak?
Speaker 1: And how come people are the only animals he wondered,
Speaker 1: Uh that I know of that can use language? Nowadays,
Speaker 1: we know that's not entirely true. By the way Wales
Speaker 1: communicate with through song right, and it has a lot
Speaker 1: in common with languages, and birds seem to also be
Speaker 1: able to communicate certain concepts, especially Corvett's shout out um.
Speaker 1: But he, like I, I think we both read that sometimes.
Speaker 1: This guy, who again is the King of Scotland, he's
Speaker 1: got stuff to do. This guy would sit around and
Speaker 1: just watch people talk. He would just watch their mouths move.
Speaker 1: It's a little weird, huh, It's cool again. I plub
Speaker 1: the guy for his thirst for knowledge, But he also
Speaker 1: seemed like a bit of a sociopath. I don't know
Speaker 1: most kings, it's easier for them to fall into that trap,
Speaker 1: given that you're just constantly surrounded by yes man. Not
Speaker 1: to say the sociopaths are made, but certainly, if you
Speaker 1: have those tendencies and people are constantly indulging you in
Speaker 1: doing whatever bizarro things you want, you certainly might not
Speaker 1: be the best thing for you. But what we're talking
Speaker 1: about today is King James the fourth Language experiments, because,
Speaker 1: like you said, he was fascinated with the way people
Speaker 1: communicate with each other, logistically, spiritually, all of that stuff,
Speaker 1: just like how does it work? And why are we
Speaker 1: driven to do it? Um? So like you do, in
Speaker 1: he decided to take two newborn babies to be sent
Speaker 1: to live on that isolated island of inch Keith that
Speaker 1: we talked about, And not only were they raised by
Speaker 1: mute women, they were deaf mute women. His goal was
Speaker 1: to see what natural language the children would come out
Speaker 1: with after a period of time. Um. There's not a
Speaker 1: whole lot of documentation of the experiment itself, so we're
Speaker 1: not quite sure exactly how long uh they lived on
Speaker 1: this island, um, but we do know the experiment most
Speaker 1: likely took place, and we're going to get into it now.
Speaker 1: We know too that language deprivation experiments are often referred
Speaker 1: to as the forbidden experiment, and that is because they
Speaker 1: are just inherently cruel. It's something that we've seen throughout
Speaker 1: history when people maybe had less, you know, concerned for
Speaker 1: like scientific standards and ethics. But we've seen the Greeks
Speaker 1: do this. Herodotus I believe he wrote that in the
Speaker 1: seventeenth century b c UM. The Egyptian pharaoh somatic Uh
Speaker 1: sent to infants to live with a shepherd in an
Speaker 1: incredibly isolated part that in his kingdom, and he ensured
Speaker 1: that they would never be spoken to. And Herodotus claimed,
Speaker 1: according to his writings, much of their speech was nonsense,
Speaker 1: but he believed they were babbling the words becos, which
Speaker 1: is an ancient Phrygian word that means bread. Um. So
Speaker 1: the pharaoh believed that Phrygia, rather than Egypt, was in
Speaker 1: fact the oldest civilization because I mean that's the language
Speaker 1: that came out with naturally, it was it was total swinging,
Speaker 1: a mess, barely even a swing. Yeah. And as as
Speaker 1: you know, folks, uh, this historian is famous for being
Speaker 1: infamously unreliable, so take it with a grain assault. This
Speaker 1: is not the only example, though. We know that the
Speaker 1: Mughal Indian Emperor Akbar back in the sixteenth century also
Speaker 1: reputedly raised children in isolation. And this guy found that
Speaker 1: these children, when they were raised without the opportunity to
Speaker 1: learn language in their formative years, they tended to remain
Speaker 1: mute later and this will this plays a role in
Speaker 1: the idea that there is a window, right, a window
Speaker 1: of time in which certain things must be learned by
Speaker 1: juvenile humans. It reminds me of of the case of
Speaker 1: Genie in the young feral child who was living under horrible, abusive,
Speaker 1: neglectful situations UM where she was basically kept in a room,
Speaker 1: and she she was able to be taught to speak.
Speaker 1: But if you don't have a need to speak, this
Speaker 1: shows that you're probably not going to UM. More often
Speaker 1: than not, kids in these kind of situations start to
Speaker 1: develop sign language rather than actually speaking, because again, we
Speaker 1: as children we learn by example. And Jeannie didn't speak
Speaker 1: for a long time until she was then kind of shown,
Speaker 1: you know, some exercises and ways to to pick it up,
Speaker 1: and she did. But you're right, then, once you get
Speaker 1: past a certain threshold, just like it is for adults
Speaker 1: to learn a foreign language, it does become increasingly more
Speaker 1: and more difficult and has nothing to do with some
Speaker 1: innate language ability. I mean, it really is just about
Speaker 1: how the brain is able to learn things. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: hardwire this is this is something I want to touch
Speaker 1: on later too, because these experiments are ancient. But things
Speaker 1: like this do occur much more recently than people may
Speaker 1: like to assume. And we'll get to a a case of
Speaker 1: romania in a little later in the show. Maybe. But
Speaker 1: obviously you can have noble intentions, and it's a good
Speaker 1: question to ask. They just didn't have the same kind
Speaker 1: of concept of ethics that people have today. So obviously,
Speaker 1: even if James were a king now in a modern monarchy,
Speaker 1: he would still have an uphill battle ahead of him
Speaker 1: if he wanted to try to do this experiment. And
Speaker 1: even in his time, people believed that these experiments were
Speaker 1: bad for kids. The Holy Roman emperor Frederick the Second
Speaker 1: had tried to raise had tried to conduct a similar
Speaker 1: experiment raising children this way, and people believe that the
Speaker 1: children he had raised in silence without communication had all died,
Speaker 1: and some people believed that those unfortunate children on inch
Speaker 1: Keith died as well. But to the point you're making,
Speaker 1: and that's a very good point we have to make.
Speaker 1: There aren't really any credible records, Like there's not a
Speaker 1: trail of correspondence from multiple people saying, Hey, what's up
Speaker 1: with those kids on that island? I just wanted to
Speaker 1: check in. Sorry, I've been busy being king. But don't
Speaker 1: think I forgot. People guessed about the outcome of the experiment,
Speaker 1: but a lot of that guessing was hearsay or second hand,
Speaker 1: Like Sir Walter Scott said, Well, to me, the kids
Speaker 1: probably just imitated whatever they heard from the local animals
Speaker 1: around them, or maybe non language vocalizations from their adult caretakers.
Speaker 1: Another guy, many decades later named Robert Lindsay said he
Speaker 1: had heard the kids spoke perfect Hebrew. That's almost certainly
Speaker 1: made up, right, And it's interesting that. But what do
Speaker 1: you think the agenda is to make a claim like that? Um,
Speaker 1: you one would think that they would claim that it
Speaker 1: was you know, the King's English. You know that the
Speaker 1: children naturally spoke. I mean, I guess there was reverence
Speaker 1: for Hebrew culture because of you know, Christianity and all
Speaker 1: of that, but I also know that there was division
Speaker 1: and that jew Jewish people were often othered even in
Speaker 1: this time, right, Yeah, the the Hebrew language is an
Speaker 1: interesting claim. And you know, we have to also understand
Speaker 1: that in this time a lot of scientific experiments suffered
Speaker 1: from confirmation bias. Now I can't remember the name of
Speaker 1: this guy, but back in the day in Europe, there
Speaker 1: was a scientist, quote unquote, a learned man who did
Speaker 1: what he thought was exhaustive research on the most attractive
Speaker 1: face of a man, and he found, surprise, surprise, that
Speaker 1: the most attractive, scientifically proven most attractive male face uh
Speaker 1: did in fact look a lot like his big big
Speaker 1: nose week week chin. You know, I think baldin or
Speaker 1: something like that. So what we're saying is people kind
Speaker 1: of dressed up their own opinions sometimes, and there may
Speaker 1: have been kind of agenda with either Robert Lindsay or
Speaker 1: whomever was telling them that. But when we speculate over
Speaker 1: whether or not King James actually did this, we have
Speaker 1: to also note that it could have been folklore. It
Speaker 1: could have been just a tall tale, a legend. Because
Speaker 1: we know he genuinely was a polyglot. We know that
Speaker 1: he genuinely did love languages. So maybe this, along with
Speaker 1: pre existing knowledge of other language deprivation experiments, maybe these
Speaker 1: things combined to sound plausible enough, right, Like, maybe it
Speaker 1: never happened, but everybody acknowledged it's something this dude would
Speaker 1: have been into. Yeah, No, I completely agree. And um,
Speaker 1: as we know, ultimately another King James was very responsible
Speaker 1: for guiding the trajectory of Christianity with his King James
Speaker 1: translation of the Bible. Um. And we know that there
Speaker 1: are many translations of the Bible, but that was one
Speaker 1: that kind of picked up the most steam, and it
Speaker 1: was because he had the most cloud. So obviously that
Speaker 1: love of language kind of ran in that in that
Speaker 1: family to a to a degree. Um. And we know
Speaker 1: also that the the history is kind of written by
Speaker 1: the victors and the folks with the most power. So
Speaker 1: I think that's very interesting to think about. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: actually I want to kind of chime in here right here. No,
Speaker 1: that King James you speak of is actually this James's
Speaker 1: great grandson known as King James the sixth and King
Speaker 1: James the First, depending on which which kingdom you're talking about,
Speaker 1: But it's true. It just goes to show that language matters,
Speaker 1: and that fascination obviously was something that was important to
Speaker 1: a generation of of King James's. But you know, so
Speaker 1: many people kind of question, uh, the validity of the
Speaker 1: King James Bible, because a lot of it was built
Speaker 1: around a pretty particular perspective of a monarch, you know, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: And to go back to our guy, James the fourth,
Speaker 1: this is where we have to ask ourselves a little
Speaker 1: bit more about what the written record would say. We
Speaker 1: mentioned that earlier historian Robert Lindsay he's working in the
Speaker 1: sixteenth century. He wrote a book called History and Chronicles
Speaker 1: of Scotland. Uh. This was almost a hundred years after
Speaker 1: the fact, by the way, and he does specifically mention
Speaker 1: this alleged experiment. He says, the king also caused to
Speaker 1: take one deaf woman and put her in inch Keith,
Speaker 1: and give her two bairns b a I r n
Speaker 1: s just kids with her, and furnish her in all
Speaker 1: necessary things pertaining to their nourishment. Desiring hereby to know
Speaker 1: what languages they had when they came to the age
Speaker 1: of perfect speech. Some say they could speak Hebrew, but
Speaker 1: for my part I know not, but from other people's reports,
Speaker 1: so at least he was like, all right, some someone
Speaker 1: told me it was Hebrew. It seems like they probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't have done that. Maybe if someone was there teaching
Speaker 1: them he threw, but that would be speaking to them.
Speaker 1: That would render the experience or the experiment rather pointless.
Speaker 1: So what happened to James? We know this experiment was
Speaker 1: just one of the many things he did, but what
Speaker 1: do you do after this? Well, um, he died and
Speaker 1: some weird stuff happened to his body. He was considered Ultimately,
Speaker 1: history kind of deemed him to be a pretty successful ruler.
Speaker 1: His reign was relatively peaceful, but it was kind of
Speaker 1: up ended by some wars with England, though they didn't
Speaker 1: they weren't the aggressors, um. So there was a truce
Speaker 1: with England that was broken in fourteen UM and James
Speaker 1: had to prepare an invasion to support the Perkin Warbeck,
Speaker 1: who was what you'd call a pretender to the English throne,
Speaker 1: sort of an interloper um. The war was largely fought
Speaker 1: in a few border areas and a seven year piece
Speaker 1: was negotiated in December, but there were still little skirmishes
Speaker 1: along these borders from time to time, and relations between
Speaker 1: England and Scotland were did continue to kind of improve
Speaker 1: and stabilize up until three and that's when James married
Speaker 1: Margaret Tudor, who was the oldest daughter of King Henry
Speaker 1: the seventh of England. And then, of course, a century later,
Speaker 1: James's great grandson, the Stewart monarch, James the sixth of Scotland,
Speaker 1: took the English throne. That the Bible guy. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the Bible guy exactly. That's what he called himself. He's like,
Speaker 1: I'm a Bible guy, right, who can take the scriptures anyway?
Speaker 1: So so this, uh, this leads to an interesting situation. So,
Speaker 1: because James the fourth is well respected in this region,
Speaker 1: he is able to get a pretty equal seat at
Speaker 1: the table of continental Europe. And then he goes into
Speaker 1: conflict with King Henry the eight famous for that oldie
Speaker 1: song I'm King Henry the Eighth, I'm Henry the Eighth.
Speaker 1: I am uh there it is, thank you. And so
Speaker 1: so he tries to team up with France against Henry
Speaker 1: the Eighth, and when Henry the Eighth invades France in
Speaker 1: fifteen thirteen, James has all his advisers saying, all right, man,
Speaker 1: keep a cool head, keep a cool head, bro But
Speaker 1: instead he says, no, forget it, I'm going into England.
Speaker 1: So he trashes four castles, all in the month of
Speaker 1: August thirteen. But then his army gets waxed. The opposing
Speaker 1: forces mopped the floor with them. It's something called the
Speaker 1: Battle of Flowden or Flawed in f L O D
Speaker 1: D E N on September nine, and this is when
Speaker 1: James the fourth passes away. He and most of his
Speaker 1: nobles die in this conflict. His corps is not looking
Speaker 1: what you would call open casket ready. He's been disfigured
Speaker 1: by arrows. He eventually gets identified as people are going
Speaker 1: through bodies after the battle, and then he his remains
Speaker 1: are embalmed. He's putting a lead coffin and he's taken
Speaker 1: from a place called Berwick back to London. And this
Speaker 1: package is sent to the wife of Henry the eighth.
Speaker 1: She takes the poor dead James's surcoat which is still
Speaker 1: like it's bloody and it's ripped up because he did
Speaker 1: not have a peaceful end, and she sends it back
Speaker 1: to her husband. Catherine sends it to her husband, King
Speaker 1: Henry the eighth, and she says something pretty metal. To
Speaker 1: be honest with you, she says, use this as a
Speaker 1: war banner. You know, forces see this dead guy's bloody coat.
Speaker 1: That's psychological warfare right there. Um. I mean you gotta
Speaker 1: think like he was like basically family with them too,
Speaker 1: because Henry the Eighth was his brother in law. Right well,
Speaker 1: monarchy's monarchies are super into being interrelated. Uh, but that's
Speaker 1: an his body, right. Henry eventually gets back from France
Speaker 1: and people think, well, we've got this, you know, habeas corpus,
Speaker 1: we've got this guy's body. What should we do with it?
Speaker 1: For many of us hanging out today and Nold maxim
Speaker 1: sure you can agree. Uh, the idea would be like, hey,
Speaker 1: barry the guy, he's dead. But they weren't happy with
Speaker 1: that worthy Yeah. So um. He was in fact excommunicated
Speaker 1: from the church um as a punishment for breaking that
Speaker 1: Truce of Perpetual Peace, which is a great name for
Speaker 1: a truce if you ask me, and that was signed
Speaker 1: between Scotland and England two. And because of that, because
Speaker 1: of that excommunication, the idea of a proper Christian burial
Speaker 1: in consecrated church grounds just wasn't on the table now.
Speaker 1: So the body of James was just left in a
Speaker 1: wood shed of the Sheen Monastery to just kind of
Speaker 1: you know, molder there, you know, and and like literally
Speaker 1: like a like a tool shed. Even after the pope
Speaker 1: granted permission for the burial, they were like, no, sorry,
Speaker 1: this proceeds the purposes the word of God. So eventually
Speaker 1: this you know, rotted corpse was just completely forgotten about
Speaker 1: and somehow the head fell off. I mean that'll happen,
Speaker 1: you know, if you leave something just to rot long enough,
Speaker 1: that's gonna happen. And the story goes though there isn't
Speaker 1: a ton of of uh, you know, documentation for this,
Speaker 1: that some workers from the area played soccer with it,
Speaker 1: kicked it around, um after which time Elizabeth, the first
Speaker 1: master glazier, found it and took it home as a souvenir. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and this wasn't quite the end. The head was eventually
Speaker 1: take in the Great Saint Michael's Church in London. It
Speaker 1: was dumped into a charnel pit. Eventually, the monastery where
Speaker 1: the king's headless body was housed was demolished. We don't
Speaker 1: know whether it was ever actually buried there. That church St.
Speaker 1: Michael's also got torn down, and if you go there now,
Speaker 1: I believe it is the site of a pub called
Speaker 1: get this the Red Harry so things did not end well.
Speaker 1: But one thing we do know from this story, whether
Speaker 1: or not it is true or whether it's a tall tale,
Speaker 1: we know that communication with children with babies, with infants
Speaker 1: is tremendously important. We see other examples of this that
Speaker 1: we're really heartbreaking, such as the problems with Romanian orphanages
Speaker 1: that happened very very recently. And what what they found
Speaker 1: is that these children were so neglected in these state orphanages.
Speaker 1: They would just lay in cribs all day. Many weren't
Speaker 1: clothed or fed or diapered on any set schedule. Um.
Speaker 1: They would die from very minor diseases in some cases,
Speaker 1: and then would have to be exposed to very serious
Speaker 1: infections like HIV. This thing, it's interesting and this this
Speaker 1: is I have a hard time articulating how disturbing this is.
Speaker 1: These children in some cases, in many cases literally stopped
Speaker 1: vocalizing because no one would answer their cries. They just
Speaker 1: gave up. Wow, that's that's heartbreaking. Um, But we will
Speaker 1: likely never know what happened to these children. That's the
Speaker 1: fascinating part if you ask me, uh, is how did
Speaker 1: they progress in their lives? You know, like were they
Speaker 1: able to learn how to speak once they were returned
Speaker 1: from the island. Were they returned from the island? Did
Speaker 1: they live out their days on this island with nothing
Speaker 1: but these these nurses to take care of them? And
Speaker 1: since they were presu be much older what happened when
Speaker 1: they passed? The island today is actually owned by a
Speaker 1: like a Scottish multimillionaire, a guy named Tom Farmer who's
Speaker 1: the founder of a company called quick Fit. And you
Speaker 1: have to get his permission to check out the island
Speaker 1: of inch Keith. To this day, I hear there's a
Speaker 1: nice lighthouse, but yeah, you got you gotta check with
Speaker 1: Tom first, And yeah, this is This is so fascinating
Speaker 1: because history is shock full of experiments that seem bizarre
Speaker 1: or an ethical, or just even a little bit absurd.
Speaker 1: You might say, like gluey, you know, chicken feathers to
Speaker 1: yourself and jumping off a building. But we have to
Speaker 1: remember that each one of these experiments, even if they
Speaker 1: do seem dare I say it ridiculous here in one
Speaker 1: they are all a part of a great endeavor, which
Speaker 1: is to understand the world a little bit better than
Speaker 1: we did yesterday. And for that you can say you
Speaker 1: know this is a noble thing. But if you are listening,
Speaker 1: you're considering language experiments on children, don't do this. I
Speaker 1: feel like that's that's not a hot take, right. We
Speaker 1: could tell I think we're I think we're good. I
Speaker 1: think I think we're all on the same page there.
Speaker 1: But Ben, what are the kind of modern equivalent of
Speaker 1: this kind of language experimentation that would be considered ethical?
Speaker 1: Is it more modeling, kind of AI based stuff. I'm
Speaker 1: just fascinated. You know. Obviously doing experiments on children, even
Speaker 1: with permission is pretty frowned upon. But um have there.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think honestly, the whole goal of this
Speaker 1: experiment has probably been so disproven and kind of made
Speaker 1: a bit of a mockria just by you know what
Speaker 1: we know now today that people don't just come out
Speaker 1: with some sort of natural, you know, language of God.
Speaker 1: It is all about nature and nurture. So maybe these
Speaker 1: kind of experiments are irrelevant largely today. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it would be honestly, things would probably be a lot easier.
Speaker 1: The human species ever had a single language, and people
Speaker 1: have in the past tried to manufacture or you know,
Speaker 1: purposely create a one world language, such as oh, my gosh,
Speaker 1: I know people, it's such as Esperanto. You know, William
Speaker 1: Shatner did a film all in Esperanto and my friends
Speaker 1: who speak Esperanto, because I actually know if you assure
Speaker 1: me that it is hilarious because his accent is terrible.
Speaker 1: Mr Shattner, if you're listening, that is not a ding
Speaker 1: on you, sir, But you're right. Well. I'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from people who work in the fields of you know, uh, studying,
Speaker 1: language acquisition and children, and love to hear what the
Speaker 1: what the future of that research is. And I wonder
Speaker 1: how it can be modeled. But that's that's a story
Speaker 1: for the future, and our show is about history. We
Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed this. We can't wait to hear from you.
Speaker 1: As always, Please check us out on the internet. Come on, man,
Speaker 1: so close, going so well? All right? Max? Ready, it
Speaker 1: was bound to happen sooner or later. What's that gudible time, gentleman?
Speaker 1: The quizter way? Max? Have you not have you not
Speaker 1: experienced this before? Is this new for you? I have
Speaker 1: edited before, but I have never firsthand experienced it. But Jonathan,
Speaker 1: how are you my friend? There are no friends here, Max, adversaries,
Speaker 1: the quizter have traveled backward in time to quiz you
Speaker 1: before the thing you'll talk about has been talked about.
Speaker 1: So my first question to you, hey man, come on,
Speaker 1: don't don't give away the what magic? What have what
Speaker 1: have you had talked about already that hasn't happened yet. Oh,
Speaker 1: we've talked about language deprivation experiments, very famous one because
Speaker 1: you see R. Berlin. It's quite quite fortuitous because my
Speaker 1: scenarios have nothing what's ever to do with that? But
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you're very presence often deprives those
Speaker 1: around you of language because they're so busy cringing. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot
Speaker 1: of of of of speechless mouths when I come up. Yes,
Speaker 1: welcome to the the cringe eest segment of any podcast
Speaker 1: in existence, the equist segment, where I will present to
Speaker 1: our beloved co hosts three scenarios. It is their duty
Speaker 1: to determine which a vegan scenario? Three what scenarios? It's
Speaker 1: just you ruined the way I say that word now
Speaker 1: like in my day to day life. It's just part
Speaker 1: of part of my gig. Man. I mean, there's a
Speaker 1: whole like job description and right up there was ruined
Speaker 1: scenarios for Ben Bolan to check that out right, So great,
Speaker 1: I'm glad to help you. So for for folks who haven't,
Speaker 1: for a fellow ridiculous historians who haven't had the experience
Speaker 1: of hearing this segment before, do you want you want to?
Speaker 1: You want to give us a quick and dirty breakdown? Also,
Speaker 1: I was working on it, but I kept getting interrupted. Right,
Speaker 1: So give you three scenarios, two of which are true
Speaker 1: and one that I made up seas, and then the
Speaker 1: two of you must determine which of the three scenarios
Speaker 1: is the fake, and you will have a few minutes
Speaker 1: to determine. You get to discuss amongst yourselves. And if
Speaker 1: you wish to ask me a question, you must first
Speaker 1: preface that question by following an arbitrary rule that I
Speaker 1: set typically thirty seconds after I stopped talking. Know, I've
Speaker 1: got it. I've got it in this case, and you'll
Speaker 1: understand why when I ask when you want to ask
Speaker 1: a question me, I'm getting mixed up. It's been a
Speaker 1: long time. How are you guys doing? No? Never mind,
Speaker 1: when I I'm ready to have you asked a question
Speaker 1: you say whale of a tale, and then you ask
Speaker 1: a question whale of a tale, and then you can
Speaker 1: ask a question of me. Otherwise, just talk amongst yourselves.
Speaker 1: Are you prepared for your three scenarios? Get on with it, quister. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've got the grandfather clock. We spent way too much
Speaker 1: money on in my apartment. So it's been let me
Speaker 1: tell you moving that he didn't even buy a pizza.
Speaker 1: Moving that up to your boy, What a day that was?
Speaker 1: All right? Here are your three scenarios. Scenario one. In
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty the English Channel Submarine Telegraph Company attempted to
Speaker 1: create the first telegraph wire connection between Dover, England, and Calais, France.
Speaker 1: After laying the cable under the sea, and before either
Speaker 1: England or France could establish a good connection, the line
Speaker 1: went dead. The newspapers placed blame upon a nameless French
Speaker 1: fisherman who thought he had discovered a weird type of seaweed,
Speaker 1: perhaps won with gold in the middle, and had cut
Speaker 1: the line through Scenario number two. In eighteen fifty five,
Speaker 1: Norway laid a subsea cable to the isolated archipelago of Svalbard,
Speaker 1: where whalers had established communities The experiment came to an
Speaker 1: abrupt end when Tineus Olsen, the engineer stationed at Svalbard,
Speaker 1: begged to be retrieved. He claimed that the whalers had
Speaker 1: threatened him and had been trying to destroy the cable
Speaker 1: with their ship anchors. It would take another fifty years
Speaker 1: before Norway established a permanent cable connection with Svalbard. Scenario three.
Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty eight, the U. S Ship Niagara and
Speaker 1: the British ship Agamemnon met in the middle of the Atlantic,
Speaker 1: spliced two very long cables together, and then sailed in
Speaker 1: opposite directions, spooling out cable along the way. The Niagara
Speaker 1: went to Newfoundland, Agamemnon went to Ireland. The cable established
Speaker 1: the first transatlantic communication wire between the UK and North America,
Speaker 1: but it only worked for about two months before the
Speaker 1: chief electrician, wild Man white House fried the cable with
Speaker 1: too much voltage. Begin Okay, I am running to the
Speaker 1: clock on one second, guys, go uh, these are all
Speaker 1: pretty good, pretty good. I've heard of Svalbard that seems
Speaker 1: like a real or maybe it's I've seen it like
Speaker 1: it's like a piece of ikea furniture. Um wouldn't that
Speaker 1: be devious, especially after saying it with such intention. Every
Speaker 1: time he said what's it called again, Jonathan, it almost
Speaker 1: sounds like, yeah, okay, sorry, I was a quiet that
Speaker 1: was like I said, they you for aswing that without me?
Speaker 1: That was that was just that was just catering to
Speaker 1: my ego. That was just for old times quail of
Speaker 1: a jail. Yes, Master Berlin, could you give us just
Speaker 1: the dates of those three the first when eighteen fifty
Speaker 1: for the English Channel between Dover and Clay, eighteen fifty
Speaker 1: five between the mainland of Norway and SMaL Bard at
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty eight for all Ireland to Newfoundland. Okay, so
Speaker 1: this this to mean nol This means that they all occurred,
Speaker 1: or two of them at least occurred in a very
Speaker 1: close span of time, right, I mean, but this is
Speaker 1: sort of like a This represents these sort of clashes
Speaker 1: of like old and new kind of where it's like
Speaker 1: I think most of these involved well that's not sure.
Speaker 1: The second one, in particular involved is like a fisherman
Speaker 1: not realizing what underwater cable was and mistaking it for
Speaker 1: something that seems like a stress. I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: if if if folks are out in the world. They're
Speaker 1: seeing this infrastructure being laid. You know, if they're professional
Speaker 1: seafaring folk, then they're gonna be aware of this stuff,
Speaker 1: unless they're like, you know, from another time, like in
Speaker 1: the Sino Man or something. Just to interrupt that that is,
Speaker 1: that is part of the That is part of the
Speaker 1: first scenario, not the second one. Just so that just
Speaker 1: so that you know which ones you're picking. Okay, So
Speaker 1: the first one also had a bit of good old
Speaker 1: fashioned greed right seaweed with believes there were going for
Speaker 1: the goal. That's okay, So that's the one I'm gonna
Speaker 1: maybe cancel out. Um, I don't know, man, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go asval Bard? Are you gonna go as val Bar?
Speaker 1: Then we're we're a little a little because for some reason,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to pick the third one, not because
Speaker 1: of the content, but because of the way that the
Speaker 1: quisters sayings val Bard to bring attention to it. Um,
Speaker 1: what do you think you want to consult Max? We
Speaker 1: got we can game show of this, We can show
Speaker 1: a friend and you guys want me in. I am
Speaker 1: with nol. Initially hearing them, I was like, it's the
Speaker 1: number two, That's what I'm gonna go with all right,
Speaker 1: then let's lock it in three two one number two
Speaker 1: Max Max. What the hell did I do to you?
Speaker 1: All right? Listen, I had a good thing going. You
Speaker 1: come in, you ruin everything. Number two was the made
Speaker 1: up seas right, So number one with the French fisherman
Speaker 1: who cut through the wire thinking that it was a
Speaker 1: strange form of seaweed, That's what the newspapers reported. It
Speaker 1: was not necessarily what actually happened. What probably happened was
Speaker 1: that the cable, which had no armor sheathing on it,
Speaker 1: rubbed against the rocks because of the action of waves
Speaker 1: and broke apart on its own. But the newspapers reported
Speaker 1: that it was potentially a French fisherman who just played
Speaker 1: did not know better and cut through it, And of
Speaker 1: course the Agamemnon and the Niagara did in fact meat
Speaker 1: in the middle of the ocean. This was the second attempt.
Speaker 1: The first time they tried to go from Ireland all
Speaker 1: the way to Newfoundland with one ship picking up where
Speaker 1: the end of the cable left off for ship number one,
Speaker 1: but that did not work. It broke apart, and so
Speaker 1: they ended up trying it again, and they started in
Speaker 1: the middle of the Atlantic and went opposite directions that
Speaker 1: worked for about two months. It also took sixty seven
Speaker 1: minutes for Queen Victoria's message to be sent across the
Speaker 1: Transatlantic cable to arrive for President James Buchanan. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't even she said. She said, Dear Jimmy, BRIT's rule,
Speaker 1: Americans drool love Vicky Vicky Taylor's all this time. I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that it took so long for those messages
Speaker 1: to be transmitted. That's interesting. Well, if you would like
Speaker 1: to learn more about why you can listen to tech stuff,
Speaker 1: because I totally just corded episodes about it, so Smith, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that is true. Jonathan. In addition to being our
Speaker 1: nemeses again long time listeners, you know this well, you
Speaker 1: do so many things. You've got the best tech podcast
Speaker 1: out there on the internet, as verified and confirmed by
Speaker 1: US here at Ridiculous History, comes out five days week
Speaker 1: uh and it is also one of the older shows
Speaker 1: on our network. It's one of the first podcast we
Speaker 1: ever started doing. If you want to learn anything about technology,
Speaker 1: that is your go to. But that's not all you do,
Speaker 1: is it? Qrist No No No. I also host a
Speaker 1: co host a show called large Ner drawn Kaleider that
Speaker 1: publishes every Thursday, where I and believe it or not,
Speaker 1: my friend, Yes, I do have one named Ariel. She
Speaker 1: and I talked about the latest geek news of the week,
Speaker 1: and then we mash up two geek properties that never
Speaker 1: should meet one another and say, what would happen if
Speaker 1: they had a baby? Is she all so a soulless
Speaker 1: supervillain type figure? She's real? She goes to another podcast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's yes, exactly, she's my She's my podcast girlfriend from Canada.
Speaker 1: And then, finally, finally, I host a show called The
Speaker 1: Restless Ones, which is all about talking with very important
Speaker 1: executives about technology and leadership. And that one is a
Speaker 1: al right, fine, fine, fine, I'm giving you a hard times.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I fall asleep when I especially man, if you
Speaker 1: if you asked me to q a an episode, forget it.
Speaker 1: That's that's Z time. Oh yes, bit of Inside Baseball.
Speaker 1: This is funny. So we were talking. We got on
Speaker 1: air and had said, Jonathan, you know, it's it's good
Speaker 1: to see you. How are you. Uh we it's been
Speaker 1: too long. We name drop you at the end of
Speaker 1: every episode, and then there was a temperature on our recording.
Speaker 1: You could feel it palpably mower in the room and
Speaker 1: he said, oh, I've heard it. I was like, you
Speaker 1: don't listen to our show. It's all good fun. It's
Speaker 1: all in good fun. We love you, Jonathan and your
Speaker 1: your your alter ego the Quister, and always glad when
Speaker 1: you darken our doorstep and lower our zoom room podcast temperature.
Speaker 1: I hope that the two of you have a wonderful
Speaker 1: conversation about the thing that everyone else has already heard. Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you, we we do too. Oh god, you're really
Speaker 1: messing my head up on this one. Me gone Quister,
Speaker 1: Quister out and there he goes, there he goes. You know, um,
Speaker 1: I hate to see him leave, but love to watch
Speaker 1: him walk away. Yeah, Like I prefer it when he
Speaker 1: just kind of de materializes into a puff of smoke.
Speaker 1: That's always nice. Yeah, it's this the smoke budget is well.
Speaker 1: You know, that's a lot of inside baseball folks, but
Speaker 1: we're we're hard at work. Max. You have survived your
Speaker 1: first encounter with Jonathan Strickland a k. The Quister. You'll
Speaker 1: never be the same. Though, you'll never be the same
Speaker 1: now it stays with you it gets, It gets into
Speaker 1: your soul. So I think at this point maybe the
Speaker 1: three of us, uh call it a day, gets some
Speaker 1: rest and recuperation from that. Well, it's not that bad.
Speaker 1: We won you know, be a credit for that too, now, now,
Speaker 1: not all credit. I I was, I was, I was
Speaker 1: barking up the right tree. You just joined me in
Speaker 1: that tree and helped sway. Ben. And for the I
Speaker 1: get fifty, you get fifty, band gets zero. Okay, that
Speaker 1: sounds fair. What do you say? Yeah, I'm fine with that.
Speaker 1: I have a good friend. Street name is zero. Well, then,
Speaker 1: the first and foremost we must thank our super producer
Speaker 1: Max Williams for rescuing us from the tyranny of the quister,
Speaker 1: who we will also think with you know less sincerity, um.
Speaker 1: But also thanks to you, Ben Hey, thanks to you
Speaker 1: for coming over to the light side. You know, I
Speaker 1: believe in the benefits of democracy, so you know, historically
Speaker 1: I'm trying to pull everybody in on on so many things.
Speaker 1: So the power of voting matters, folks. That's that's our
Speaker 1: takeaway there. Yeah uh, and thanks of course to Alex Williams,
Speaker 1: Thanks to Christopher Aciotis, thanks to Eve's Jeff Coat. Thanks
Speaker 1: to Jonathan Strickland ak the Quister, who has just done
Speaker 1: so much for the tourism industry of small Bard, which
Speaker 1: is a very interesting place. By the way, it's one
Speaker 1: of the few places. It's one of the easiest places
Speaker 1: to migrate to in all of Europe because the weather
Speaker 1: is a little rough. Thanks also to let's see who else. Oh,
Speaker 1: thanks to Gabe. Yeah, thanks to Gabe Luisier for hipping
Speaker 1: us to this incredibly fascinating topic that we have definitely
Speaker 1: already recorded. Yeah, yeah, we'll do. Okay, we'll do okay,
Speaker 1: it's all lies. We'll see you next time, folks. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen of your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.