Speaker 1: Hey, it Jorhan Daniel here, and we want to tell
Speaker 1: you about our new book. It's called Frequently Asked Questions
Speaker 1: about the Universe because you have questions about the universe,
Speaker 1: and so we decided to write a book all about them.
Speaker 1: We talk about your questions, we give some answers, we
Speaker 1: make a bunch of silly jokes as usual, and we
Speaker 1: tackle all kinds of questions, including what happens if I
Speaker 1: fall into a black hole? Or is there another version
Speaker 1: of you out there that's right? Like usual, we tackle
Speaker 1: the deepest, darkest, biggest, craziest questions about this incredible cosmos.
Speaker 1: If you want to support the podcast, please get the
Speaker 1: book and get a copy not just for yourself, but
Speaker 1: you know, for your nieces and nephews, cousins, friends, parents, dogs, hamsters,
Speaker 1: and for the aliens. So get your copy of Frequently
Speaker 1: Asked Questions about the Universe is available for pre order now,
Speaker 1: coming out November two. You can find more details at
Speaker 1: the book's website, Universe f a Q dot com. Thanks
Speaker 1: for your support, and if you have a hamster that
Speaker 1: can read, please let us know. We'd love to have
Speaker 1: them on the podcast. Hey Daniel, how do you know
Speaker 1: that an electron is actually an electron? What do you mean?
Speaker 1: I mean, what else could it be? Well, what do
Speaker 1: you really know about an electron? Well, that's a good question.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can measure things about it, like it's mass,
Speaker 1: and it's charge and it's spin. So even if you can,
Speaker 1: you know, look at it directly, that's enough to tell
Speaker 1: you that it's an electron. I guess. So, I mean
Speaker 1: if it quacks like an electron and it walks like
Speaker 1: an electron, then you call an electron a doctron. But
Speaker 1: I guess you know, how do you know there isn't
Speaker 1: another particle with like the same charge and mass and spin,
Speaker 1: but is not an electron like another particle hiding and
Speaker 1: electron clothing. Yeah, like the incocniton or the full electron,
Speaker 1: or the non electron or the electron. Not. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: glad we have a name for it, even if we
Speaker 1: haven't discovered it yet. I am or Hammer cartoonists and
Speaker 1: the creator of PhD comics. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a
Speaker 1: part of Gold physicist or at least I walk like
Speaker 1: one and I quack like one. Oh really, physicists quack
Speaker 1: that a thing you do when you discover something amazing
Speaker 1: about the universe. Oh yeah, we quack about corks all
Speaker 1: the time and quasars. Yeah, I guess regular nerds a
Speaker 1: snort and when they laugh and we're get excited. Physicists
Speaker 1: are hardcore and you quack, yeah exactly, don't quibble about
Speaker 1: the way we quack. And that's why you fly south
Speaker 1: every winter, right, that's why I live in south southern California.
Speaker 1: Sabbaticals in the South Pacific. No, i' made a mistake.
Speaker 1: I took my sabbatical by going north. I went to
Speaker 1: Copenhagen briefly, but you went in the summer though, right,
Speaker 1: days were long, Right exactly, it's the right place to
Speaker 1: go in the summer. This is one smart duck. But anyways,
Speaker 1: welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,
Speaker 1: a production of I Art Radio, in which we fly
Speaker 1: north and we fly south, we go on sabbatical, and
Speaker 1: we engage our brains in the big questions of the universe.
Speaker 1: We try to ask the biggest, deepest, darkest, craziest questions
Speaker 1: about the nature of the universe, what's in it, what's
Speaker 1: out there, and what it really means? Is the reality
Speaker 1: we see around us, the reality that's actually out there
Speaker 1: independent of human thought, or is it vastly different than
Speaker 1: our crazy, tiny human brains can't imagine? Is the worldlined
Speaker 1: us and hiding and pretending to be something that it
Speaker 1: isn't or is it just the way it looks? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it is a pretty tricky universe. You know, it's
Speaker 1: not only big and almost a hidden from us because
Speaker 1: it's so large, but there's also, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: strange things about it, because you know, the only things
Speaker 1: that we know about the universe are the things we
Speaker 1: can see or at least measure with our instruments, and sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know, the universe places tricks on us. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you can ask really fun, interesting philosophical questions, like how
Speaker 1: do you know what some thing is? Like you eat
Speaker 1: an ice cream cone? You know, it feels like an
Speaker 1: ice cream cone in your hand, it tastes like an
Speaker 1: ice cream cone. How do you know it's not actually
Speaker 1: something else and you're being fooled and it tastes like
Speaker 1: an ice cream cone, but it's actually something crazy and weird,
Speaker 1: like an assembly of nanobots that's been collected to like
Speaker 1: invade your body and taste like ice cream. Oh, my gosh,
Speaker 1: you just give me nightmares about eating ice cream. I
Speaker 1: hope I didn't just ruin ice cream for everybody you
Speaker 1: might have. Yeah, No, I'm gonna worry eating nanobots or
Speaker 1: something evil nanobots fooling my tongue. There is a deep
Speaker 1: question there because we are limited in the ways that
Speaker 1: we interact with the universe, right, We can't see the absolute, ultimate,
Speaker 1: complete truth of the universe. Ever. We have these narrow
Speaker 1: little ways. We can see, we can taste, we can touch,
Speaker 1: we can smell, and that paints a picture in our
Speaker 1: minds of what we think the universe is like. But
Speaker 1: it's a very narrow way to interact with the universe,
Speaker 1: and it is possible that we are confused about what's
Speaker 1: actually out there. Yeah, because I guess the universe is
Speaker 1: tricky like that, And I mean it's so complex. That's
Speaker 1: something that it seem like, you know, ice cream could
Speaker 1: be something else. You know, it could have fake sugar
Speaker 1: or nana bots or artificial flavors, you know, or artificial
Speaker 1: nana bouts, Like, hey, I ordered nano bots of my
Speaker 1: ice cream. These aren't real nano bots. Now, I can't
Speaker 1: even trust the nana bouts They could be you know,
Speaker 1: the cheap kind or something. That's right, they kind of
Speaker 1: give you indigestion later, you don't want to eat those.
Speaker 1: It could be po bots or fempty bots. Well, I
Speaker 1: paid for Nana bots and I just got these Milli bots. Man,
Speaker 1: I can even see these with my eyeballs. What's going on?
Speaker 1: They're too crunchy. Yeah, they ruined the texture of your
Speaker 1: fake ice cream. But mostly we're not that worried about
Speaker 1: ice cream. As long as it tastes good, it's fine.
Speaker 1: Mostly we're worried about the nature of the universe and
Speaker 1: what's in it, what's out there in the universe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and one of the most interesting things out there for
Speaker 1: people to study are black holes. It seems like we
Speaker 1: get a question about black holes almost every week on
Speaker 1: the podcast, right, Yeah, this should basically become a black
Speaker 1: hole podcast. We're basically just falling into the gravitational attraction
Speaker 1: of the mysteries of black holes. Yeah. I guess the
Speaker 1: r very attractive and deep. Yeah, and once you start
Speaker 1: talking about them, you basically can't escape. There's like a
Speaker 1: question horizon or something. Yeah, it's a massive topic. But
Speaker 1: even black holes, as you know, as much as we
Speaker 1: know about them, Like, we know they're there. You can
Speaker 1: see them gravitationally. And now recently, in the last year
Speaker 1: or two, we've actually gotten pictures of black holes. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we have a lot of information about black holes, and
Speaker 1: you just said we know that they are there, And
Speaker 1: that's a really interesting question. Like, we know a lot
Speaker 1: of things about black holes. We've measured a lot of
Speaker 1: things about black holes. A lot of things that we
Speaker 1: see makes sense a black holes were there. But you know,
Speaker 1: how do we really know it's not just a bunch
Speaker 1: of nanobots out there fooling us in deep space? Oh? Man,
Speaker 1: I imagine we're not going to be licking the black
Speaker 1: holes or eating them, hopefully not. I don't think anybody
Speaker 1: ever said licking the black hole until you just said it.
Speaker 1: Then it's the first time in human history anybody ever
Speaker 1: said that. We'll trade that and put it on our
Speaker 1: T shirts. Daniel and Horror explain the universe liking the
Speaker 1: black holes. That's like a pitch for the science fiction
Speaker 1: version of a Christmas story. Yeah, you're going to shoot
Speaker 1: your eye out and or well into a singularity forever. Alright,
Speaker 1: we're talking about black holes today and this sort of
Speaker 1: philosophical question almost about the true nature of black holes
Speaker 1: and whether or not we are actually looking at or
Speaker 1: feeling black holes. Yeah, what's actually out there that's giving
Speaker 1: us the impression that black holes exist? And could it
Speaker 1: be something else masquerading as a black hole? Oh man, sneaky.
Speaker 1: So today on the program, we'll be tackling the question
Speaker 1: what if black holes are not actually black holes? And Daniel,
Speaker 1: are we questioning you know that they're not actually black
Speaker 1: the color black, or that they're not actually holes or
Speaker 1: both both and everything? We're questioning everything today, we're blowing
Speaker 1: it all up. No, we are wondering what we actually
Speaker 1: know about the nature of black holes. What evidence do
Speaker 1: we have that they are this we your conceptual object
Speaker 1: that really just exists in our minds and existed only
Speaker 1: in the minds of physicists for fifty years before we
Speaker 1: discovered them. Well, actually, I guess maybe they existed in
Speaker 1: the universe before that, but the idea is only fifty
Speaker 1: or so years old, and so we're asking the question,
Speaker 1: is what's actually out there consistent with what's in our mind? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Because I think black holes have had sort of an
Speaker 1: interesting journey, right, Like first week thought up of them
Speaker 1: as an imaginary thing, like we saw the theory and
Speaker 1: we imagine that they could exist, and then we sort
Speaker 1: of confirmed that they're there but not actually seeing them.
Speaker 1: They sort of looked like they were there gravitationally, and
Speaker 1: then more recently we've actually seen them. We have pictures
Speaker 1: of them. But now we're asking the question here today,
Speaker 1: are they really actually black holes? The things that we're
Speaker 1: seeing in feeling? Yeah, because can you really see something
Speaker 1: that's just black? You know, it's like sort of not
Speaker 1: seeing it is seeing it. You know, we didn't see
Speaker 1: light from the black hole, which would have told us
Speaker 1: it's not a black hole. What we saw is not light,
Speaker 1: which is not the same thing is seeing the black hole.
Speaker 1: We didn't see the not black hole, or we saw
Speaker 1: the not black hole we didn't. I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: confusing myself. Did it not see a not black hole
Speaker 1: that is not actually there? Let's just keep going in
Speaker 1: exactly consistent with the black hole prediction. We didn't see
Speaker 1: photons from it. What does that actually proved? Right? Right?
Speaker 1: If it looks like a triple negative and it walks
Speaker 1: like a triple negative, it's actually true. Maybe I don't
Speaker 1: know these philosophical jokes are too much for me. But
Speaker 1: I guess if a black hole is not actually a
Speaker 1: black hole, what else could it be? Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: there are a bunch of other ideas for what could
Speaker 1: maybe be masquerading as a black hole. What out there
Speaker 1: in the universe, other theoretical concepts for what could give
Speaker 1: us the same sort of set of observed data that
Speaker 1: could give us the same experience without actually being a
Speaker 1: black hole. Interesting? Do we have a name for these
Speaker 1: mysterious fake full black holes or black holes? We do?
Speaker 1: And this is this call these things dark stars, which
Speaker 1: is how sort of cool in science fiction? E. It
Speaker 1: does sound like another Marvel superhero or villain. I think,
Speaker 1: actually that is maybe a d C hero, thinking we'll
Speaker 1: have to google it. It sounds to me like the
Speaker 1: jet black version of the Death Star. Interesting, that's for
Speaker 1: the next Star Wars equal when there's another death Star
Speaker 1: like the fourth one, but actually bigger and darker. Is
Speaker 1: that what you're saying? Yeah, well, you know in Star
Speaker 1: Wars they're always saying that's not a moon, that's a
Speaker 1: space station, and this one they'll say, that's not a
Speaker 1: black hole, that's a dark star space station. Oh my,
Speaker 1: gosh called j J Abams. I'm sure he's a listener,
Speaker 1: So j J you call us, that's right, you have
Speaker 1: Daniel's email for waiting. So a dark star. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of what we'll be talking about today, is that,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe black holes are not black holes. Maybe
Speaker 1: there's something called a dark stars. Yeah, exactly. These are fun,
Speaker 1: crazy concepts that might be real out there in the universe.
Speaker 1: So as usual, we were wondering how many people out
Speaker 1: there had thought about the trueness of black holes and
Speaker 1: had heard of these things called dark stars. So Daniel
Speaker 1: went out there and ask people on the internet what
Speaker 1: is a dark star? And if you are out there
Speaker 1: in the Internet and still don't feel safe venturing outside
Speaker 1: and talking to humans in person, I get it. And
Speaker 1: so if you'd like to participate in these questions online
Speaker 1: please they'll be shy and right to us two questions
Speaker 1: at Daniel and Jorge dot com. We'd love to hear
Speaker 1: your voice on the podcast. So think about it for
Speaker 1: a second. If I say the words dark star, what
Speaker 1: comes to your mind? It was what people had to say.
Speaker 1: I think a dark star is a white dwarf that
Speaker 1: has sufficiently cooled to become a black dwarf and doesn't
Speaker 1: emit any radiation. Sounds like it's one that would not
Speaker 1: emit any light, but maybe it's still emits radiation. Why
Speaker 1: that would be, I have no idea, but that's my guess.
Speaker 1: So I think I've heard of this where like say
Speaker 1: a brown dwarf, a brown dwarf is niclear a star,
Speaker 1: but it's a lot gammer and a lot cooler, and
Speaker 1: typically a lot smaller. So that would be what I
Speaker 1: would think a dark star is. White dwarfs are going
Speaker 1: to burn out and become dark. It could also be
Speaker 1: you guys thinking about dark matter somehow forming a star,
Speaker 1: but the dark matter cannot interact with itself, so does
Speaker 1: that work. At the beginning, I thought this dark star
Speaker 1: was black hole, but lately I read that dark star
Speaker 1: might be a type of star from the beginning of
Speaker 1: the universe, really really big star, much bigger than battle
Speaker 1: Juice or any other type of star that we've seen
Speaker 1: until now. So this is from the really beginning of
Speaker 1: the universe. If I say to you, what is the
Speaker 1: dark star, what would you think? Well? Probably it could
Speaker 1: also me and not very bright stars, and mostly there
Speaker 1: are rampwarfs like Barnold Star are proxima centauri. All those
Speaker 1: dark not very dark, does not be bright. A dark
Speaker 1: star also awesome name for a band or opening cover
Speaker 1: of a band. Dark star definitely, I'm going to go
Speaker 1: with the dark matter star, even though dude, I have
Speaker 1: no idea how such a thing could exists, because what
Speaker 1: even is dark matter? No one knows. But if it
Speaker 1: could clump and immage energy in the form of dark radiation, well,
Speaker 1: even better band name. Then you will get a dark star.
Speaker 1: I think a dark star is probably maybe a theoretical
Speaker 1: object in dark matter, So maybe it's a star made
Speaker 1: entirely of dark matter, but I'm not arrely sure. I
Speaker 1: guess a dark star would be the star that's not
Speaker 1: emitting light, so maybe a star that has already undergone
Speaker 1: a supernova or that has collapsed into a black hole
Speaker 1: or something otherwise. Um, I guess a rock star that
Speaker 1: trash is hotel rooms would also be a dark star. Right.
Speaker 1: Interesting answers here. I feel like all of these answers
Speaker 1: could be a theory of physics in itself. There are
Speaker 1: some great answers, and you hear some real knowledge in there.
Speaker 1: There are people talking about dark matter stars or black dwarves.
Speaker 1: Black dwarves are a real thing, are they? They absolutely are.
Speaker 1: There are when a white dwarf, which is just a
Speaker 1: huge hunk of hot metal no longer actually fusing and
Speaker 1: giving off light, just sort of like glowing in the universe,
Speaker 1: when they cool down eventually and stop glowing and become dark,
Speaker 1: and so that's a black dwarf. I like this suggestion
Speaker 1: that maybe it's like a dark matter star, which we
Speaker 1: actually talked about on the podcast, right, Yeah, we did
Speaker 1: talk about whether you can make dark matter stars and
Speaker 1: maybe whether they would make dark photons using dark fusion
Speaker 1: or something crazy like that. So if you're interested in
Speaker 1: dark matter stars, go check out that whole episode. I see,
Speaker 1: but that's its separate rock band, right, There's a Dark
Speaker 1: Star and there's Dark Matter Star. Yeah. I think they
Speaker 1: toured together once in the eighties, but it didn't go
Speaker 1: very well. The Extra Dark Tour is epic and the
Speaker 1: story well, they never turned on the lights and so
Speaker 1: nobody could tell if they were there. Yeah, they all right,
Speaker 1: And then someone at the end said that maybe it's
Speaker 1: a black hole. So they were sort of close to
Speaker 1: the truth here, maybe yeah, yeah, maybe there are masquerining
Speaker 1: as black holes. All right, let's jump into this subject
Speaker 1: of whether or not a black hole is actually a
Speaker 1: black hole and what else it could be. So let's
Speaker 1: start from the basics. Daniel, why do we think we've
Speaker 1: seen black holes? It's a really fun story. Actually, we
Speaker 1: did a podcast episode about the discovery of black holes,
Speaker 1: and it's really cool to trace the history of the
Speaker 1: idea and then the history of the observation, like, this
Speaker 1: is not something I think we could have ever discovered
Speaker 1: if we didn't know to look for it, because in
Speaker 1: the end, the evidence is not a smoking gun. It's
Speaker 1: like the kind of thing you can hunt for subtle
Speaker 1: signals of if you know to see it. So it's
Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, a story. The moral of
Speaker 1: the story is you should really think carefully about what's
Speaker 1: out there in the universe, because it might give you
Speaker 1: crazy ideas for what to look for. And this crazy
Speaker 1: idea came from Albert Einstein himself in nineteen fifteen when
Speaker 1: he came up with general relativity, which is the way
Speaker 1: to describe how space bends in response to mass, and
Speaker 1: then how mass moves through that bend space. So that's
Speaker 1: the theory of general relativity, and just a year later
Speaker 1: somebody solved his equations and discovered they predicted something really,
Speaker 1: really weird. And that's when the idea of a black
Speaker 1: hole was born. Now more than a hundred years ago, right,
Speaker 1: maybe you can step us through this a little bit.
Speaker 1: So what was Einstein looking at? Like, he was looking
Speaker 1: at the equations of gravity, and like, what happens if
Speaker 1: you get enough gravity into into or mass into one
Speaker 1: tiny spot? How does that affect the equations that he
Speaker 1: was coming up with? What exactly was he looking at?
Speaker 1: He was looking for a general equation, one that described,
Speaker 1: you know how space bends when you have mass in it.
Speaker 1: So if you put a son here and you put
Speaker 1: a planet there, then how does space curve? And then
Speaker 1: how do things move through that curved space? But his
Speaker 1: equations are famously hard to solve, Like, we can't solve
Speaker 1: them for even very basic simple scenarios like a son
Speaker 1: and a planet. We've only been able to solve them
Speaker 1: for very simple situations like an empty universe with nothing
Speaker 1: in it, or a universe like filled smoothly with matter
Speaker 1: with no lumps or bumps at all. These kinds of
Speaker 1: very simple situations lead to solutions where we say, if
Speaker 1: you have a certain mass distribution, then I can tell
Speaker 1: you how space bends. It's not easy for a given
Speaker 1: arbitrary mass distribution to solve Einstein's equations and know how
Speaker 1: space bends. It's like, it's very difficult. Einstein's equations just
Speaker 1: tell you, like the rules that it has to follow.
Speaker 1: But as we talked about once in the podcast, knowing
Speaker 1: the equations doesn't necessarily mean you know how to find
Speaker 1: a solution. And so even though we had these equations,
Speaker 1: nobody had ever solved his equations, including Einstein. When he
Speaker 1: put them out there, he was like, here are the equations.
Speaker 1: But just a year later, a soldier on the front
Speaker 1: lines of World War one, kurse short child, solve them
Speaker 1: for this easy scenario where you have a really immense
Speaker 1: amount of mass all in one place. And so that
Speaker 1: was the first ever solution to the Einstein equations. This
Speaker 1: one really weird, extreme scenario. And sometimes in math, like
Speaker 1: the really extreme weird scenarios are easier to solve than
Speaker 1: the more complicated general ones. I see. So Einstein didn't
Speaker 1: even think about black holes. He just put out, you know,
Speaker 1: general equations for like everyday life and somebody looked at
Speaker 1: that and say, well, what if I crank up the
Speaker 1: mass and put it onto one spot that leads to
Speaker 1: like a special solution, which is a black hole. Precisely
Speaker 1: in Einstein was like, wow, nice work and never thought
Speaker 1: of that. That's very cool. He was like man penning
Speaker 1: himself on the back, kind of like, wow, that's a
Speaker 1: pretty awesome thing that came from something I did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's always cool in science to see somebody
Speaker 1: follow up on your work. You know, you don't want
Speaker 1: to write a paper and then have nobody read it
Speaker 1: and nobody respond to it. You want people to read
Speaker 1: it and build on it. And of course lots of
Speaker 1: people have done that for now, but this was like
Speaker 1: the first step. This is the first time somebody took
Speaker 1: his equations and said, all right, you know what kind
Speaker 1: of universe is him this describe So Einstein hadn't really
Speaker 1: thought about this idea of like a volume in space
Speaker 1: that if you go into it you can never escape. No,
Speaker 1: he had not thought about that at all. And in fact,
Speaker 1: even though this solution existed in general relativity since the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixteen, people didn't really understand the impact of the concept.
Speaker 1: What it meant, you know, what it would actually look
Speaker 1: like in space until decades later. It was like in
Speaker 1: the fifties that this concept of an event horizon was
Speaker 1: even invented. You know, before that people were like, well,
Speaker 1: what would that mean? Would it just looks like sort
Speaker 1: of a frozen star because there's so much gravity to
Speaker 1: be crazy time dilation. So it wasn't until the fifties
Speaker 1: of people realized that no information could leak out of this,
Speaker 1: that there was like a barrier beyond which all information
Speaker 1: was hidden. So it takes decades sometimes to understand the
Speaker 1: consequences even of theoretical ideas interesting. So I guess the
Speaker 1: black hole wasn't really a black hole for for forty
Speaker 1: years until somebody figured out that, you know, if you
Speaker 1: actually were in the presence of one, it would look
Speaker 1: like a giant black ball. Yeah, but even then it
Speaker 1: was like a crazy idea. And you have to understand,
Speaker 1: physics is filled with crazy hypothetical ideas that nobody believes
Speaker 1: are real, that nobody thinks actually exist in our universe.
Speaker 1: Like if you read papers, there are papers describing all
Speaker 1: sorts of crazy, bonkers things, and these are just theorists exploring,
Speaker 1: like what could happen. What about this, could this work?
Speaker 1: What would it mean? And this was in that category
Speaker 1: for a long long time, not something anybody ever expected
Speaker 1: to see in the universe or actually observe. And that
Speaker 1: changed in the sixties when there was the discovery of
Speaker 1: neutron stars. I made a podcast recently about the discovery
Speaker 1: of pulsars, which was very cool. That shocked people because
Speaker 1: these are closely related to black holes. They're very dense,
Speaker 1: very compact objects with incredible gravity. So people start to think,
Speaker 1: hold on a second, if neutron stars are real, could
Speaker 1: black holes be real? Also, so neutron stars are totally
Speaker 1: different because you can still escape a neutron star, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they don't have an event horizon, but they are crazy
Speaker 1: dense gravitational objects. Okay, so we found it, and that
Speaker 1: made people think, Hey, maybe this other crazy idea called
Speaker 1: the black all exists out there. Let's go look for it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then around the same time, we started seeing unexplained
Speaker 1: radiation from the sky, like people were sending rockets up
Speaker 1: into the upper atmosphere to measure the radiation from space,
Speaker 1: and they found an incredibly bright X ray source that
Speaker 1: nobody could explain, like something out there was generating very
Speaker 1: very high energy photons. To have high energy photons, you
Speaker 1: need like really really hot gas, and you know, you
Speaker 1: look in the sky and you don't see anything there,
Speaker 1: so you're like, what's out there? It's dark and it's
Speaker 1: generating this crazy X ray source. So that was weird
Speaker 1: and interesting. Well, I mean it's dark and like the
Speaker 1: visible light spectrum, is that what you mean? Right, Like
Speaker 1: you can't see with the naked eye, but if you
Speaker 1: have an X ray telescope you can see the light
Speaker 1: in that frequency. Yeah, And so that tells you there's
Speaker 1: something out there which is glowing only in this very
Speaker 1: very high energy photons. That's weird, you know, And so
Speaker 1: we knew it was something and it had to be
Speaker 1: kind of small because it was like not a whole
Speaker 1: lot of room around there. You could like pinpoint where
Speaker 1: this was coming from, and it couldn't be some like huge,
Speaker 1: massive extended object because there was like other stuff nearby.
Speaker 1: And that was the sort of the second clue, like
Speaker 1: we saw that there was something out there that was
Speaker 1: dark because we couldn't see it in a visible light,
Speaker 1: but it was generating these X rays and it was
Speaker 1: pretty small. We found another example of one that was
Speaker 1: orbiting a super giant blue star and it was emitting
Speaker 1: this crazy radiation, but there was nothing visible there and
Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of room for anything, So that
Speaker 1: suggested it had to be something which was like very
Speaker 1: small but very high energy. Did you call them like
Speaker 1: X stars or x essence? There were so small, extra small,
Speaker 1: all right, So then people went out to look for
Speaker 1: black holes. But I guess the question is was what
Speaker 1: they found actually black holes? So let's get into that
Speaker 1: question and what this dark star is and what it means.
Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break, all right. I
Speaker 1: know we are questioning black holes. Are black holes actually
Speaker 1: black holes, like in the sense of the concept of
Speaker 1: a black hole that Einstein helped figure out, or maybe
Speaker 1: there could be something else that acts like something that
Speaker 1: could be a black hole. Yeah. I feel like we're
Speaker 1: in you know, act two of some murder mystery where
Speaker 1: we have a bunch of clues and we have a suspect,
Speaker 1: and we're like, all these clues pointed that suspect, and
Speaker 1: then we're wondering, hole on a second, is it possible
Speaker 1: that it was actually the ex husband or the sun
Speaker 1: or whatever, were that one character that you didn't pay
Speaker 1: attention to, and you have to reassess your evidence. You're like,
Speaker 1: what do we actually know about who killed this person?
Speaker 1: So this is the part where you like twiddle your
Speaker 1: mustache and like what if, Yeah, you know, maybe that
Speaker 1: was just a paste on mustache or maybe there's shaved
Speaker 1: their mustache off or something. You know, the whole thing
Speaker 1: was just a deep fick. And so I think it's
Speaker 1: useful to like catalog exactly what we do know about
Speaker 1: these objects that we've been calling black holes. But maybe
Speaker 1: it's really just the ex husband or an ex black
Speaker 1: hole husband. Anyways, So you're telling me that we sort
Speaker 1: of figured out theoretically that there could be black holes
Speaker 1: out there, and then we saw some clues and then
Speaker 1: we actually went and found what we think are black holes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we have identified these objects out there in space, and
Speaker 1: essentially we know that they are small, that they are dark,
Speaker 1: and that they are heavy. Right. We know they're small
Speaker 1: because sometimes we see other stars orbiting nearby them and
Speaker 1: coming very very close, so they can't be that big.
Speaker 1: We know that they are dark because they don't give
Speaker 1: off a lot of visible radiation or almost none or
Speaker 1: exactly none, and We know that they are heavy because
Speaker 1: we can measure their gravitational impact on other stars nearby.
Speaker 1: We see stars like whizzing around them really fast, which
Speaker 1: only happens you have like a lot of gravity. So
Speaker 1: we have something that's small and dark and heavy. And
Speaker 1: for a long time we had, you know, only one
Speaker 1: candidate that could fit the bill, one candidate that could
Speaker 1: satisfy all of those requirements, and that was black holes.
Speaker 1: So I guess, yeah, I guess from a far enough distance,
Speaker 1: that's how you would define it, right, if you're far
Speaker 1: away enough, it's just something that is not visible in
Speaker 1: the in the light invisible light spectrum. But it's also
Speaker 1: very heavy, yeah, because we've never like actually seen an
Speaker 1: event horizon in the sense that we haven't like dropped
Speaker 1: something in it and see it disappear, you know, or
Speaker 1: measure the gravitational impact on it. Even the direct photograph
Speaker 1: we have of a black hole, right, the one that
Speaker 1: was a big hullabaloo in the news and etcetera, Like,
Speaker 1: what is it? Really what you're looking at is an
Speaker 1: accretion disc is the gas around the black hole, and
Speaker 1: in the center you see something black. So again you
Speaker 1: know that it's small, that it's dark and it's heavy,
Speaker 1: you don't actually know it's nature. And the argument that
Speaker 1: it's a black hole is basically like nothing else can
Speaker 1: do that. So if you can think of something else
Speaker 1: that can do that, then you know, maybe it's that
Speaker 1: other thing instead. But we've also seen gravitational waves right
Speaker 1: from black holes or what we think are black holes
Speaker 1: crashing into each other. We have exactly we've seen gravitational
Speaker 1: waves from black holes merging from neutron stars merging from
Speaker 1: neutron stars, and black holes merging. What does that tell us?
Speaker 1: It tells us again that there's something very massive with
Speaker 1: a lot of gravity and that general relativity mostly works,
Speaker 1: So that could be explained by something else, you know,
Speaker 1: just as massive and small and dark in that same
Speaker 1: location that would also emit gravitational waves, like anything that
Speaker 1: dense and small would emit gravitational waves also, So that's
Speaker 1: also not a unique signature of black holes. Like let's
Speaker 1: not jump to conclusions. And so maybe a possible thing
Speaker 1: this could be instead of a black hole is something
Speaker 1: called a dark star, So like what is the dark star? Then? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So the idea is, you know, exercise your brain, think
Speaker 1: about other ways to arrange matter that gives the same
Speaker 1: sort of outwards appearance but looks different fundamentally. And so
Speaker 1: a dark star is like again very very dense matter.
Speaker 1: You know, you take star and it's done burning, and
Speaker 1: so it no longer can provide like ready Asian pressure
Speaker 1: to push outwards, and gravity takes over and it pulls
Speaker 1: the star in and it collapses into something very very dense.
Speaker 1: And there's lots of different scenarios. One scenarios it becomes
Speaker 1: a neutron star, right, and that's a scenario where to
Speaker 1: avoids total gravitational collapse because of the neutrons putting pressure
Speaker 1: on each other. But there's this other idea that it
Speaker 1: could collapse to something even more dense than a neutron star,
Speaker 1: but not a black hole. And so that's what a
Speaker 1: dark star is. It's got something called a plank core
Speaker 1: where the core is collapsed and gravitationally, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: go all the way to a black hole because something
Speaker 1: prevents that, something does actually push back. Interesting, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: remember a neutron star. It's like the stuff is squeezed
Speaker 1: together so much that it like dissolves into almost pure corks. Right,
Speaker 1: And so you have this giant wall of corks kind
Speaker 1: of holding together because there's enough energy there to pushing
Speaker 1: the quarts pushing each other away, but it's still super
Speaker 1: super dense. Yeah, and we do not understand the internal
Speaker 1: physics of the neutron star very well at all. It's
Speaker 1: like a really active area of research, and it's really
Speaker 1: difficult to study because corks are complicated. You know, they
Speaker 1: used the strong force, which is a big mess to
Speaker 1: do calculations in. Every time you emit a gluon, it
Speaker 1: emits more gluons. You have infinite numbers of gluons every
Speaker 1: time you want to do a calculation. So we don't
Speaker 1: really understand what's going on inside a neutron star. But roughly, yes,
Speaker 1: it's like a huge particle because all the corks are
Speaker 1: bound together into this incredible you know, like ten fifteen
Speaker 1: kilometer objects that's the mass of the Sun. So you're
Speaker 1: saying that there's another step that you can take between
Speaker 1: that and a black hole, which is maybe a dark star.
Speaker 1: And so what's happening, Like are the corks somehow running
Speaker 1: out of juice and so they squeeze in a little further,
Speaker 1: Like what's going on? How would this dark star come
Speaker 1: to be yes. So the reason neutron star is stable
Speaker 1: is because the corks are pushing back against each other.
Speaker 1: And so to go deeper and darker and go beyond
Speaker 1: a neutron star, you need more gravity. So if you
Speaker 1: have more mass than a neutron star can be, like
Speaker 1: neutron stars can be at most, you know, mass, maybe
Speaker 1: twice the mass of the Sun or so, we're not
Speaker 1: exactly sure. If you have more mass than that, then
Speaker 1: you can have enough gravity to overcome whether corks are
Speaker 1: doing to resist the collapse, just the same way like
Speaker 1: our son currently is resisting gravitational collapse. It's doing so
Speaker 1: by burning and his fusion and photons pushing out. The
Speaker 1: neutron stars pushing out because of the cork forces. If
Speaker 1: you have more gravity, you can overcome that, and then
Speaker 1: you can go deeper. And there's another layer. People think
Speaker 1: this is all hypothetical. People think that there's another layer
Speaker 1: where quantum mechanics itself prevents you from getting to a
Speaker 1: black hole. So the particles get so close that the
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics uncertainty principle prevents you from collapsing even further. Interesting,
Speaker 1: so I would have like a neutron star super dance,
Speaker 1: and I add more neutrons to it, more mass to it,
Speaker 1: and before it actually collapses into a black hole, maybe
Speaker 1: there's something about quantum mechanics that keeps it not collapsing,
Speaker 1: because quantum mechanics doesn't like having particles localized in a
Speaker 1: very specific region. Right, The whole idea of a singularity
Speaker 1: inside a black whole huge amount of mass and basically
Speaker 1: zero volume, is nonsensical when it comes to quantum mechanics.
Speaker 1: Quantum mechanics says, if that happens, then the uncertainty and
Speaker 1: the momentum of all those particles would basically be infinite,
Speaker 1: so they would basically have infinite energy, and then they
Speaker 1: would escape. The whole thing of a singularity doesn't make
Speaker 1: sense from the point of view of quantum mechanics. So
Speaker 1: the idea is maybe quantum mechanics prevents you from getting there,
Speaker 1: that as the particles are collapsing, that the uncertainty principle
Speaker 1: prevents them from getting so close as to actually form
Speaker 1: a singularity. I guess the key thing here is that
Speaker 1: it's small, it's dark, it's super dense, but it's not
Speaker 1: technically a black hole because it doesn't get dense enough
Speaker 1: to form an event horizon, which is like the actual
Speaker 1: like point where nothing can escape. Yeah, this dark star
Speaker 1: would not have an event horizon exactly. And also it
Speaker 1: wouldn't have a singularity at its core. You know, the
Speaker 1: really defining characteristics of a black hole are the singularity
Speaker 1: at its core and the event horizon. And so this
Speaker 1: would be a very very dense object, even denser than
Speaker 1: neutron stars, but not actually a black hole, and quantum
Speaker 1: mechanics would be preventing that. And something else that's super
Speaker 1: fascinating about these objects is that they're not stable like
Speaker 1: a neutron star is stable. It's a balance between these
Speaker 1: two foss squeezing down gravity and pushing out because of
Speaker 1: the corks, this plank core is not actually stable. People
Speaker 1: think that quantum mechanics is more like a rubber sheet,
Speaker 1: you know that You're like it collapses and then it
Speaker 1: bounces back, so it provides like a maximum density or
Speaker 1: like a minimum size to this object, and then it
Speaker 1: pushes back and then the star expands again. But wouldn't
Speaker 1: that be evidence or an argument against these dark stars,
Speaker 1: Like if they don't last very long, why do we
Speaker 1: think they could exist, right, Well, they might not last
Speaker 1: that long in their own time, right, but the gravity
Speaker 1: is really really intense and so time is slowed down.
Speaker 1: So what these dark stars might be is like this
Speaker 1: object that's collapsing, that's going to bounce back from this
Speaker 1: plank core. But from our point of view, it might
Speaker 1: take billions or trillions of years for that bounds to
Speaker 1: happen because it's super slowed down by the gravity aational
Speaker 1: time dilation. So it looks stable to us on our
Speaker 1: time scale, but you know, if you're inside of it,
Speaker 1: the whole thing would be over in a blip. It's
Speaker 1: like a loophole. Like it's unstable and it won't last
Speaker 1: for long. But it depends on what you mean by long,
Speaker 1: all right, So so from our point of view it
Speaker 1: would look like a stable thing, but it's actually not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't have an event horizon, and so unlike
Speaker 1: a black hole, it could actually emit information. It could
Speaker 1: like actually leak photons. But I guess why is it
Speaker 1: dark and why is it emitting X rays but not
Speaker 1: visible light? Yeah? Great question, right, Because we have to
Speaker 1: match all the observations for these things to explain what
Speaker 1: we see. They have to actually predict what we see.
Speaker 1: So how could these things be dark? Again, it's gravity
Speaker 1: and the relativistic effects. If these things really do have
Speaker 1: this much gravity, because they're very, very dense objects, so
Speaker 1: much so that they have this crazy time dilation. They
Speaker 1: have another effect on things, which is that they read shift.
Speaker 1: So they might be emitting photons, but those photons would
Speaker 1: be shifted towards the red, so far towards the red
Speaker 1: that they're essentially invisible. Like, take a visible light photon
Speaker 1: that has a wavelength of you know, a few d
Speaker 1: nimes and stretch that thing out past infrared, out past radio,
Speaker 1: so it has like a wavelength you know, like the
Speaker 1: size of the galaxy, or maybe a little smaller. That
Speaker 1: would be a photon that's so big it would be
Speaker 1: almost invisible. And so this would look like a black hole. Wow,
Speaker 1: photon the size of a galaxy. That's wild. Well, let's
Speaker 1: get into why we think these dark stars might be
Speaker 1: real and whether or not they actually maybe supplanted black
Speaker 1: holes and make them not real. But first let's take
Speaker 1: another quick break. All right, we're talking about dark stars
Speaker 1: and whether the things that we call black holes are
Speaker 1: actually maybe not black holes, and maybe there are these
Speaker 1: dark stars, and so we talked about what those are. Now, Daniel,
Speaker 1: why do we think that maybe black holes are not
Speaker 1: black holes, but they're actually these so far theoretical dark stars. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: one reason is that black holes are a headache. You know,
Speaker 1: they don't really make sense. There's lots of puzzles, like
Speaker 1: they're fascinating, they're amazing, and they're sort of a fun headache.
Speaker 1: But you know, there's lots of things about black holes
Speaker 1: that we don't understand, like can a singularity be real?
Speaker 1: Is that something which actually exists in our universe? You know,
Speaker 1: as we said, general relativity predicts that singularities are real,
Speaker 1: but quantum mechanics says they can't exist. And so we've
Speaker 1: long struggled to understand that contradiction. And so this is
Speaker 1: sort of like a way around this to say, like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: maybe they just never happened and so we don't have
Speaker 1: to explain them. So would this supplant even like the
Speaker 1: black holes we think are at the center of galaxies,
Speaker 1: Like could those supermassive black holes in the center of
Speaker 1: galaxies that we know are humongous, could at those actually
Speaker 1: be dark stars? Or are we only talking about the
Speaker 1: smaller black holes. Now we're talking about all of them,
Speaker 1: so we could supplant all of them, and that You
Speaker 1: asked a question before the break about the X rays,
Speaker 1: like how do we ling the X rays and the
Speaker 1: other radiation because the supermassive black holes at the center
Speaker 1: of our galaxy. You know, from the actual black hole,
Speaker 1: there's no light right there black but around them are
Speaker 1: these crazy accretion disks of hot gas that are emitting
Speaker 1: X rays and other very high energy radiation. But that's
Speaker 1: just from the gravity of the object. And so a
Speaker 1: dark star with the same gravity as a black hole,
Speaker 1: but without the actual singularity in the event horizon would
Speaker 1: have the same gravitational impact on nearby stuff, heating it
Speaker 1: up and swirling it around and generating that same radiation.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you could have a huge dark star at
Speaker 1: the center of our galaxy that's like in the middle
Speaker 1: of a billion or trillion year collapse and rebounds out,
Speaker 1: but it looks to us like a black hole. I
Speaker 1: feel like you're kind of saying that maybe black holes
Speaker 1: in themselves are impossible, Like maybe it's impossible to have
Speaker 1: a black hole, and actually, like when you try to
Speaker 1: get a black hole, the most you get is one
Speaker 1: of these like super compressed dark stars which are being
Speaker 1: kind of prevented from collapse by quantum mechanics. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And so maybe the reason that black holes make no
Speaker 1: sense theoretically and inconsistent with quantum mechanics is because quantum
Speaker 1: mechanics prevents them from happening. Right, If the universe really
Speaker 1: does follow these rules of the uncertainty principle, then that's
Speaker 1: inconsistent with singularities, and so maybe the uncertainty principle prevents
Speaker 1: the singularity from ever forming. Oh man, I feel like
Speaker 1: you just blew my mind if you had how many
Speaker 1: podcasts about black holes and now you tell me like,
Speaker 1: maybe they're not actually real, Like maybe they're impossible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and in some sense, like coming up with this other
Speaker 1: explanation for them solves all these other problems that black
Speaker 1: holes bring with them. Right, we've had multiple episodes about
Speaker 1: like the black hole information paradox. We know the quantum
Speaker 1: information is not destroyed, So what happens when things fall
Speaker 1: into a black hole? What happens to their information when
Speaker 1: the black hole eventually evaporates, We don't know. It's not
Speaker 1: something that makes any sense to us, and we can't
Speaker 1: explain because we have no good theory of quantum gravity
Speaker 1: that tells us what happens when there is gravity between
Speaker 1: part of goals. And so maybe the solution of that
Speaker 1: is just scratch black holes from the list of things
Speaker 1: we want to explain, right, we don't need to get
Speaker 1: about it, you know, like never mind, you know these
Speaker 1: things we've been talking about forever. Uh, whoops, never mind,
Speaker 1: it's actually not possible. Yeah, it's really fun idea, you know,
Speaker 1: like take something off your to do list by erasing
Speaker 1: it instead of doing it. I gotta clean the toilet. No,
Speaker 1: toilets don't exist. Done with that, Yeah, you're gonna have
Speaker 1: other problems if you think toilets don't exists. But the
Speaker 1: cool thing about dark stars is not only do they
Speaker 1: get rid of this thorny problem of black holes, but
Speaker 1: they could explain other mysteries of the universe that are
Speaker 1: out there. Yeah, other dark and mysterious stuff. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: For example, we've long wondered, you know, what is the
Speaker 1: stuff out there in the universe that's creating all this
Speaker 1: gravity that seems to be holding the galaxy together, some
Speaker 1: weird new kind of matter that we don't know what
Speaker 1: it is and we can't see it, but it has gravity,
Speaker 1: and it's affected the structure of the universe, and it
Speaker 1: affects how galaxies spin, and it seems to be everywhere
Speaker 1: and really important, and it's more of it. And then
Speaker 1: there is a normal matter, but we don't really know
Speaker 1: what it is and we haven't been able to see
Speaker 1: it or interact with it or detected. So this stuff
Speaker 1: dark matter. We have a long list of candidates for
Speaker 1: what it might be, but now because of dark stars,
Speaker 1: we have sort of a new candidate that appears on
Speaker 1: that list, and that's these crazy long wavelength photons. So
Speaker 1: you're saying that the light from these the dark stars
Speaker 1: is what could be dark k matter or are you
Speaker 1: saying that maybe the universe is like riddled and filled
Speaker 1: with tiny dark stars everywhere. You know, it's the light
Speaker 1: and the radiation from these dark stars. So these dark
Speaker 1: stars look a lot like black holes, but they do
Speaker 1: give off some light, but that light is invisible to
Speaker 1: us because it's so low frequency, and that light itself
Speaker 1: might be the dark matter. It could be that there's
Speaker 1: so much of it out there that the light itself
Speaker 1: is helping curve space. Because remember photons have no mass,
Speaker 1: but in general relativity, space bends in the presence of energy,
Speaker 1: not just mass, so photons can contribute to that. And
Speaker 1: so these things can contribute photons or even gravitons that
Speaker 1: are hard to detect, but overall, having lots and lots
Speaker 1: and lots of them around, they can bend the shape
Speaker 1: of space and exactly the way dark matter does. I
Speaker 1: feel like now you're saying that maybe dark matter doesn't exist,
Speaker 1: and really it's just dark light. Dark stars emitting dark
Speaker 1: photons could explain everything. But wouldn't black holes also emit
Speaker 1: you know, these dark photons, if black holes existed. But
Speaker 1: black holes don't emit anything, right, I mean, black holes
Speaker 1: don't emit light. The stuff around them emits light. But
Speaker 1: this is the one thing that would be different between
Speaker 1: black holes and dark stars. That these dark stars, because
Speaker 1: they don't have event horizons, they do emit light, and
Speaker 1: that light is crazy stretch to low frequencies by the
Speaker 1: gravitational strength of the dark star. Can we measure these
Speaker 1: long wavelength light? Can we have a detector to see
Speaker 1: if they're there? It's very difficult to interact with something
Speaker 1: that's such a long wavelength. They're basically just ignores you.
Speaker 1: That's why, for example, we do radio astronomy because radio
Speaker 1: waves can go through like clouds of gas and dust
Speaker 1: and tell us what's going on in the center of
Speaker 1: the galaxy. Because to them, the clouds of gas and
Speaker 1: dust are like nothing, and so it's very, very difficult
Speaker 1: to interact with those photons. You need a detector like
Speaker 1: the size of the galaxy almost in order to interact
Speaker 1: with them. I feel like you're telling me, like, maybe
Speaker 1: you know that dark matter halo that we know is
Speaker 1: or a cloud that is sort of covering our galaxy.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just it's not dark matter. May it's just
Speaker 1: like one giant photon, like one one ginormous photon, you know,
Speaker 1: confusing us. That'd be hilarious if it's like, Hi, I'm Bob,
Speaker 1: I'm a photon and I've been the dark matter of
Speaker 1: the whole time. Yeah, there you go. We found our culprit.
Speaker 1: Why didn't you introduce yourself in Act one? Man? Why
Speaker 1: did you wait on to Act three? That's just bad
Speaker 1: mystery writing. Well, that's really interesting to think about. But
Speaker 1: you know, photons are quantized and really really low frequency
Speaker 1: photon would not have that much energy right, because the
Speaker 1: energy the photon depends on its wavelength. So in order
Speaker 1: to explain the dark no matter, you need a lot
Speaker 1: of these photons. They have to be Bob and like
Speaker 1: ten to the twenty seven of his friends. I think,
Speaker 1: kind of like the nuta book, they're fooling ice cream
Speaker 1: flavor of the galaxy. Yeah, and you know, this is
Speaker 1: a fun theory for people to think about, like could
Speaker 1: this be becauld it really exists out there in the universe.
Speaker 1: What are ways we could separate them from black holes
Speaker 1: that we could actually detect. But it's a new area.
Speaker 1: People are playing with it, you know. Carlo Rovelli wrote
Speaker 1: a fun paper about them. I read a few papers
Speaker 1: on this topic. It's still something that's in people's minds.
Speaker 1: I see, like we don't know if it's even possible
Speaker 1: to have these dark stars or whether they would just
Speaker 1: collapse into the black hole. Yeah, the signs of them
Speaker 1: is still very new and tentative, and people are doing
Speaker 1: calculations and making all sort of assumptions and disagreeing with
Speaker 1: each other about what these things might look like. It's
Speaker 1: really at the forefront of knowledge. But you know, black
Speaker 1: holes were at the forefront of knowledge. For decades before
Speaker 1: we understood really what they would mean and what they
Speaker 1: would look like in the universe, and so it might
Speaker 1: just take a little while for sort of like people
Speaker 1: to digest this stuff intellectually and figure out how to
Speaker 1: look for them correctly. Well, it's at that picture that
Speaker 1: we took up the black hole last year or two
Speaker 1: years ago. It was pretty convincing. But now when I
Speaker 1: look at it, and maybe I'll imagine a little tiny
Speaker 1: bob in the middle there laughing at us and twitterling.
Speaker 1: It's a mustache, yeh, exactly. Maybe it has a totally
Speaker 1: jet black mustache and you can't see it, and it's
Speaker 1: laughing at you and admitting dark matter. That's crazy. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: I guess once more the universe is full of potential surprises.
Speaker 1: And I guess the main lesson here is don't trust physicists.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe we're talking about this whole podcast. No,
Speaker 1: the lesson is fund physicists to think of crazy ideas,
Speaker 1: because they might find stuff that's actually out there, and
Speaker 1: then they might come up with even better explanations to
Speaker 1: describe what you see. We definitely need creative brain story
Speaker 1: about how the universe works. That's a good positive spin.
Speaker 1: All right, well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us, see you next time. Thanks for listening, and
Speaker 1: remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Or more podcast from my
Speaker 1: heart Radio. Visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.