Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Holly
Speaker 1: Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Uh. This week we
Speaker 1: talked about William Perkin and the discovery of Mauve and
Speaker 1: really all of his other contributions to side. Yeah. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad you picked this one because I know it's
Speaker 1: one that people have asked us to talk about before,
Speaker 1: and also something that has sort of come up in
Speaker 1: passing on other episodes. But such an interesting story, and
Speaker 1: I did not realize how young he was when that
Speaker 1: happened a baby. That was one of the things that
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention that I said we would talk
Speaker 1: about at the end of that episode. That's very very
Speaker 1: interesting to me because I feel like he is kind
Speaker 1: of an outlier to the trope of the person who
Speaker 1: becomes wildly successful when they're still very young. Because when
Speaker 1: you're young and your sensibilities are not fully matured yet,
Speaker 1: it's very easy for a lot of success to lead
Speaker 1: to a lot of bad behavior. Um and like self
Speaker 1: indulgence and just you know, kind of an overinflated sense
Speaker 1: of self. But Perkin, in all of the writing that
Speaker 1: people have done about him seems to have stayed surprisingly
Speaker 1: idealistic throughout all of that, like setting up a business
Speaker 1: will break a person, and yet he really seemed to
Speaker 1: still be like, it's still about the science, which is
Speaker 1: probably afforded him by the fact that his brother was
Speaker 1: handling like the nuts and bolts of yucky business affairs,
Speaker 1: while he was like, I'm gonna go to the lab
Speaker 1: and make a new color goodbye. Um, which is not
Speaker 1: to make him sound like he was like dippy or flippy,
Speaker 1: but just like he could focus on the science and
Speaker 1: not on the less pleasant parts of running a business. Um.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that part that we mentioned about them
Speaker 1: making a magenta and then pulling that color stood out
Speaker 1: to me in one of the papers that I was
Speaker 1: reading about them, because they seemed really upset by the
Speaker 1: fact that their process could potentially have caused people to
Speaker 1: get sick, and like that doesn't seem necessarily in line
Speaker 1: with a lot of industrialism of the day. Um. However,
Speaker 1: the source for that was a write up about it
Speaker 1: that his brother did, so I don't know as much
Speaker 1: about his brother, and perhaps his brother just wanted to
Speaker 1: make them look at or perhaps his brother was legitimately
Speaker 1: that troubled by it. I mean, they did stop producing
Speaker 1: it pretty quickly. So it seems to uphold that idea
Speaker 1: that maybe they were kind of idealists in general as
Speaker 1: a family, um, which again probably comes from the fact
Speaker 1: that they had a very privileged upbringing, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like, there's a way in which you can
Speaker 1: be very idealists when you have not had to struggle,
Speaker 1: which they didn't. And thankfully, even though they took that
Speaker 1: big risk financially with their dad, it all paid off
Speaker 1: and then some That to me is just very very fascinating.
Speaker 1: I also think, I mean, he, like I said, he
Speaker 1: wasn't dealing with the business side of things, and he
Speaker 1: got out at a young enough age that I think
Speaker 1: he sits in this lucky space historically, where like we
Speaker 1: can't ascribe all of the bad things that have come
Speaker 1: out of manufacturing plants to him because he wasn't in
Speaker 1: it anymore. And I think probably that would have been
Speaker 1: very a very happy thing on his part. He seemed
Speaker 1: like he really did would not have wanted any part
Speaker 1: of that, um. But it's pretty cool. I think about
Speaker 1: all of the things I use every single day that
Speaker 1: are connected or rooted in something that he worked on
Speaker 1: from like the sweetener I put in my coffee to
Speaker 1: the color on my head, and I'm like, thank you,
Speaker 1: William Perkin. I will say this, I really want um
Speaker 1: us to maybe have T shirts that say Cold Tar
Speaker 1: Color Jubilee on them, because I just think, what enough
Speaker 1: phrase is good? What a name it's That's not a
Speaker 1: thing that I would necessarily think I would have any
Speaker 1: interest in. But if I knew that it was, you know,
Speaker 1: all about fascinating colors and dyes being invented, that would
Speaker 1: be a different thing. Also, would you ever think all
Speaker 1: of those words would go together. I didn't think they
Speaker 1: all went together when they were coming out of my
Speaker 1: mouth on the show the Cold Tar Color Jubilee. Uh
Speaker 1: yeah that one' We had a request from someone years
Speaker 1: ago for this specific story and I don't remember who
Speaker 1: that was, so my apologies on that one. But we
Speaker 1: have gotten it, I think from a few other people
Speaker 1: as well, and it's it's been on my list and
Speaker 1: kind of jockeying around the positions at various times. And
Speaker 1: I actually was working on another subject for this week
Speaker 1: and then discovered there was a better source for that
Speaker 1: than I had already had and I had to like
Speaker 1: mail away for a book to come to me. So
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm jumping horses. I'm jumping horses. But
Speaker 1: I had our aready done enough pre limb on this
Speaker 1: one and had some papers kind of ready to go
Speaker 1: to read. So that helps make it make it happen
Speaker 1: this week instead and made him jump to the top
Speaker 1: of the list. Yeah. And also, you know who doesn't
Speaker 1: want to talk about purple all day every day? I do. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, my entire living room is purple and black,
Speaker 1: like clearly, it's a color I enjoy. And again, as
Speaker 1: you just said, you wear it on your head every day,
Speaker 1: every day of your life, every day I haven't been.
Speaker 1: I mean, I like to tell people purple is my
Speaker 1: natural color just because every once in a while, every
Speaker 1: hundredth person gets really confused like they believe it. But
Speaker 1: reminds me, I'm not going to say who this was,
Speaker 1: but it reminds me of the time that we were
Speaker 1: in a green room and a person far more famous
Speaker 1: than you, and I asked if she could touch her hair. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think after you had said that the purple was
Speaker 1: your natural color. Well, no, as I recall what had
Speaker 1: happened was she asked we were dressed in historical clothing
Speaker 1: for a strange event. She asked if that's how I
Speaker 1: always dress and I jokingly said like, yeah, this is
Speaker 1: just Tuesday outfit. And she said do you wear the
Speaker 1: wig every time? And you said that's her real hair,
Speaker 1: and then she said can I touch it? He's like,
Speaker 1: that's fine. I don't generally advocate asking if you can
Speaker 1: touch people's hair, but in this case was it was
Speaker 1: charming and funny. Yeah, anybody can touch my my hair
Speaker 1: if they want. I won't mind. I will also often
Speaker 1: get into long discussions with people about how I achieved
Speaker 1: my hair color. I think I have said it on
Speaker 1: stage at live shows before, when people have as during
Speaker 1: you and a yeah, happy to do it anytime. Brian
Speaker 1: often comes around the corner at like the supermarket and
Speaker 1: finds me talking to like a parent and a teenager
Speaker 1: because their team agent wants it, but they're scared to
Speaker 1: ask me, and the parent will just stomp up and go,
Speaker 1: how do you get your hair so purple? My child
Speaker 1: wants to know, and I'll be like, here's how I'll
Speaker 1: write it all down. Purple hairnut for shy people is
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. No, No, alright, we have wandered far
Speaker 1: afield at this point. This week on the show, we
Speaker 1: talked about mother Goose rhymes again, and in particular, we
Speaker 1: talked about who Killed cock Robin, a poem I have
Speaker 1: had a morbid fascination with since my very early childhood
Speaker 1: because I had a story book that, in my memory
Speaker 1: had two stories in it. But I could that could
Speaker 1: be totally wrong. I mean, this is a book that
Speaker 1: my mom read to me when I was very small,
Speaker 1: and I don't remember what else was in the book,
Speaker 1: because what I do remember is we would get to
Speaker 1: the end of the story that my mom read to
Speaker 1: me all the time, and then the next story in
Speaker 1: it was who Killed cock Robin? And my mom would
Speaker 1: be like, no, we're not reading that. Uh. And I'm
Speaker 1: not sure whether it was because Mom did not want
Speaker 1: to read the thing about the sparrow getting shot and
Speaker 1: somebody catching its blood and all of that, or whether
Speaker 1: she thought that I would have been traumatized by, which
Speaker 1: I might have been. I was very sensitive about small animals,
Speaker 1: But either way it became this like huge taboo source
Speaker 1: of fascination and like my very small maybe three or
Speaker 1: four year old nine, and I thought about like asking
Speaker 1: my parents what book was that? And I did not
Speaker 1: I did not do it, and also did not want
Speaker 1: anybody to like go rummaging around boxes of old stuff
Speaker 1: in their house trying to figure out the answer. Uh.
Speaker 1: But yeah, cock Robin, just let's have a murder poem
Speaker 1: for very small children. You know you got you gotta learn. Um.
Speaker 1: I know you do not like the animal heads on
Speaker 1: the human bodies that are illustrated in that by Henry
Speaker 1: Lewis Stevens. Yeah. See, that's what I have been fascinated
Speaker 1: with since I was a kid. So some of them
Speaker 1: are fine with me, Like owl with his spade and trowel.
Speaker 1: That's pretty, that's fine. Uh. And some of the like
Speaker 1: birds with human bodies are okay. But the very first
Speaker 1: illustration in it is like sparrow with no shirt on
Speaker 1: and weirdly ripped torso and a tiny bird head. I love,
Speaker 1: I love I love all this stuff. I love it.
Speaker 1: I love the bug people. Yeah, the fish with his
Speaker 1: dish and he has like the a on also bothered me. Caaculate.
Speaker 1: See here's the thing these I have long looked at
Speaker 1: this book and been like, which one of these will
Speaker 1: I eventually get tattooed on my body. Okay, it was
Speaker 1: very funny when you were like, yeah, I love all
Speaker 1: the Beatles, yum. Near the end, there's a picture that
Speaker 1: I actually think is quite beautiful. That's Who's sing Who'll
Speaker 1: sing a song? And it's the Thrush and the Thrush
Speaker 1: is singing that I think is really genuinely beautiful and
Speaker 1: it doesn't freak me out at all. But then right
Speaker 1: after that is the lark being the clerk, and it's
Speaker 1: like if somebody put a lark's head John Ebony's or
Speaker 1: Scrooge body. I love his crooked, little bad posture and
Speaker 1: his skinny legs. I love the feathers that mimic the
Speaker 1: shape of his legs. But going in a different direction,
Speaker 1: I love the background of the ladybird with her children
Speaker 1: pulling on her dress. I love at illustrations so much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the bul just looks kind of like a menatur, Yes,
Speaker 1: very much. So. This is a ridiculous conversation to be
Speaker 1: having in our audio medium of a podcast. But this
Speaker 1: whole book is online at Project Gutenberg, and you can
Speaker 1: see the whole thing for yourself if you go to
Speaker 1: Guttenberg dot org and just put the words cock Robin
Speaker 1: in the search bar, and you can also treat yourself
Speaker 1: to this either wonderful land of animal whimsy or horror.
Speaker 1: For my part of it, here's the thing I learned
Speaker 1: when you sent your outline over and I looked at
Speaker 1: it because there's a phrase that I use all the
Speaker 1: time but never knew its origin, and that is namby pamby. Okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I use it all the time. I don't want to
Speaker 1: hear your namby pamby excuses for blobby bluop, like I
Speaker 1: always associate it with um unnecessary fluff namby pam Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I don't know offhand if like that term comes
Speaker 1: from the name of that satire or if that satire
Speaker 1: was named for the term, but either way, that term
Speaker 1: has been around for a while. Yeah, I had no idea.
Speaker 1: I just thought that was more of a modern sort
Speaker 1: of silly nonsensical expression used for the needs which I
Speaker 1: just mentioned. Yeah, it's the whole thing. Yeah. Maybe I'm
Speaker 1: planning to hopefully go see my parents for Thanksgiving and
Speaker 1: in everybody vaccinated taking lots of precautions kind of way,
Speaker 1: and maybe if that happens, as I hope it will
Speaker 1: which will know by the time this episode comes out,
Speaker 1: I think, because I think this is coming out after
Speaker 1: your Thanksgiving, you'll go digging. Maybe I will. I will
Speaker 1: dig through boxes of old stuff and see if I
Speaker 1: can find the book and remember what it was that
Speaker 1: I love to be read by my mom so much
Speaker 1: that I always was disappointed when we got to the
Speaker 1: end and she would not continue to have this, you know,
Speaker 1: heart pierced elected blood murder story. Love it. I still
Speaker 1: like my theory that it's about animal vamporism. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a whole different thing. Um. Yeah, I love I love
Speaker 1: those Stephen's illustrations so much. It did not come up,
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you found it in any
Speaker 1: of your research. When we're talking about Ladybird, Ladybird, about ladybugs,
Speaker 1: which is what I grew up calling them being good luck,
Speaker 1: and if that ties into any of the interpretations they're
Speaker 1: viewed as being lucky in a lot of Europe and
Speaker 1: North America. Um. And I did read a thing that
Speaker 1: suggested that this idea of luck was tied to the
Speaker 1: association with the Virgin Mary and being sort of blessed.
Speaker 1: But then I couldn't I couldn't find a connection with
Speaker 1: that in the poem. I mean not necessarily that the
Speaker 1: people that came up with interpretations for that poem and
Speaker 1: found an actual connection either. Uh. That thing from the
Speaker 1: BBC article, just as it comes across to me is like, well,
Speaker 1: there's fire and people got burned at the stake, So
Speaker 1: clearly that's what that's about. Like, that's the most I mean,
Speaker 1: it's obvious there's a kid. It's the most tenuous of
Speaker 1: all of them, unless there is some kind of like
Speaker 1: progression that somebody did figure out that was not documented
Speaker 1: anywhere that I found. So yeah, I'm sure at some
Speaker 1: point we will do some more mother Goose rhymes. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it will be the very next six
Speaker 1: Impossible episodes, because while we did get a lot of
Speaker 1: people who were like, these are so fun, please do more,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there were other people who were like, but
Speaker 1: what if you didn't though? But what if you did
Speaker 1: something else? You know, maybe we'll have some other six
Speaker 1: Impossible episodes next time around. But either way, since it's Friday, everybody,
Speaker 1: have a great weekend. Whatever is on your plates. If
Speaker 1: you want to send us an email or history podcast
Speaker 1: that I hurt right o dot com and if you
Speaker 1: have not subscribed to the show, it is in the
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Speaker 1: Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more
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