Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, where we
Speaker 1: discuss all things mental health, personal development, and all the
Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible
Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Harden Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information
Speaker 1: and resources, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls
Speaker 1: dot com. And while I hope you love listening to
Speaker 1: and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to
Speaker 1: be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental
Speaker 1: health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me
Speaker 1: for session twelve of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast.
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure about you, but I can't wait
Speaker 1: until July twenty three when we get to see the
Speaker 1: second season of HBO's Insecure. So if you're a fan
Speaker 1: of the show, you know they left us with quite
Speaker 1: the cliffhanger last season, and I definitely can't wait to
Speaker 1: see where things pick up. But to hold you over
Speaker 1: into July, I have a very special on the Couch
Speaker 1: episode where we talk all about what therapy might look
Speaker 1: like with Molly. So you know, at the end of
Speaker 1: last season they kind of tease the idea that Molly
Speaker 1: may need some therapy. So we're going to give you
Speaker 1: a taste of what it might look like with this
Speaker 1: special guest therapist. So today I'm joined by licensed Marriage
Speaker 1: and Family therapist Esther Boykin. Esther wants to live in
Speaker 1: a world where everyone has at least one amazing relationship
Speaker 1: in their life, the kind of relationship where they feel
Speaker 1: safe to be themselves and know that they are loved
Speaker 1: wholeheartedly because of it. As a licensed marriage and family therapist,
Speaker 1: relationship coach and expert, her simple yet effective ships and
Speaker 1: philosophy fees on relationships and self care has been featured
Speaker 1: in a variety of TV, digital, print and radio media
Speaker 1: outlets including Good Morning Washington, Fox five, d C, The
Speaker 1: New York Times, Serious x M, Bustle, Real Simple dot Com,
Speaker 1: Hitched mag, Read Book, and Glamour. When she's not working
Speaker 1: with couples and individuals to create more joyful and connected lives,
Speaker 1: she can be found drinking coffee, hosting her podcast with
Speaker 1: that being said, leading a workshop, writing blog posts, or
Speaker 1: working on her next retreat. Her first book, The Date Deck,
Speaker 1: because every couple needs a date Night, hit the shelves
Speaker 1: in February and is disavailable at Amazon, Borns and Noble,
Speaker 1: and independent bookstores all over. I think that you'll really
Speaker 1: enjoy this conversation with Esther, So thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining me today. Esther, I really appreciate you taking
Speaker 1: out some time out of your schedule to chat with me.
Speaker 1: So tell us which character you are going to be
Speaker 1: talking about today. I would like to talk about Molly
Speaker 1: from Insecure, the HBO show. Okay, and for those of
Speaker 1: us who may not be familiar with the show, can
Speaker 1: you give us a little background on her? Sure? UM,
Speaker 1: I was actually just sort of looking. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I feel like I need like the full backstory, and
Speaker 1: I watched it all the whole show. But Molly is
Speaker 1: essentially you know, um, you know, young successful professional black woman. UM.
Speaker 1: The show really starts around her and her best friend. UM.
Speaker 1: And so she's any you know, an attorney trying to
Speaker 1: find love. Is probably the best way to describe that. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, she's she's single but dating. UM. As I said,
Speaker 1: I think, you know, very successful professionally, UM, maybe not
Speaker 1: quite so successful romantically. And what are some of the
Speaker 1: issues that you feel like she's dealing with them might
Speaker 1: actually lead her to therapy. I mean, and I think
Speaker 1: this is an interesting one to discuss because there was
Speaker 1: a whole conversation about therapy um in the season finale
Speaker 1: of Insecure. Um, so this could be a nice segue
Speaker 1: into the new season. I hope, so fingers crossed that
Speaker 1: that it plays out how it often plays out. Frankly, UM,
Speaker 1: when I find myself working with clients very similar to her,
Speaker 1: is that more often that there's sort of this maybe
Speaker 1: nagging kind of voice in the back of the head,
Speaker 1: like why can't I get into a relationship, Why can't
Speaker 1: I find that sort of perfect partner for me? Um?
Speaker 1: But my guess is that, you know, a woman like
Speaker 1: Molly is probably gonna end up in therapy somewhat reluctantly
Speaker 1: because people that she cares about have now sort of
Speaker 1: gently or not so gently, sort of put it out
Speaker 1: there that will maybe that's an option. And so in
Speaker 1: the show, she bumped into an old friend. Um. You
Speaker 1: know that they she and Lisa, her best friend had
Speaker 1: from college, and you know, she's like, oh, you look great,
Speaker 1: so crowded. So and this other woman says, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: like therapy has been fantastic for me, you should think
Speaker 1: about it. And she was so offended, but then it
Speaker 1: sort of opened the door I think for her, Um,
Speaker 1: and you know, and Lisa, her best friend character on
Speaker 1: the show, to really talk, you know, to kind of
Speaker 1: at least broach the subject of but maybe that is
Speaker 1: something that would be helpful. Maybe that is something that
Speaker 1: would be good for you to start to look at them,
Speaker 1: what's really happening in all of these sort of failed
Speaker 1: relationships and failed attempts at relationships. Right, and you mentioned
Speaker 1: um that she would likely go somewhat reluctantly. Um, so
Speaker 1: can you say more about why Molly and maybe people
Speaker 1: who are similar to Molly may be so reluctant Because
Speaker 1: our perception of therapy is that it's for crazy people,
Speaker 1: broken people, people whose lives are a mess. You know
Speaker 1: that that is so the opposite of sort of the
Speaker 1: image we hold of successful black women, professional women that
Speaker 1: we need to be strong. And because there is this
Speaker 1: such a stark contrast in this dichotomy, it makes it
Speaker 1: really difficult for successful black women to to find a
Speaker 1: comfortable space to actually participate in therapy because you have
Speaker 1: to sort of break that down because it's almost as
Speaker 1: if that means admitting that your whole life is a mess,
Speaker 1: rather than sort of acknowledging that you my whole life
Speaker 1: isn't a mess. But there are things that maybe I'm
Speaker 1: struggling with or things that I want that I don't
Speaker 1: seem to be able to figure out how to create
Speaker 1: in my life. And this is just one more tool,
Speaker 1: you know, It's one more place for me to you know,
Speaker 1: to learn and to grow and develop skills just like
Speaker 1: we you would do you know, at school or any
Speaker 1: number of other places. Right, So you mentioned that, um,
Speaker 1: likely the reason she would come would be that someone
Speaker 1: else would, um kind of lead her. There are enough
Speaker 1: people would kind of plant the seed that she would
Speaker 1: kind of finally say, okay, let me go check this out. Um.
Speaker 1: So what are some of the things that you think
Speaker 1: she might come in and say, um, like that she
Speaker 1: would want to work on, Like, what would some of
Speaker 1: her goals be once she finally did come in for counseling? Uh? Dating,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know I work with a number
Speaker 1: of you know of women, UM, and it is one
Speaker 1: of particularly at at that sort of age. I think
Speaker 1: once you sort of get to you know, thirty ish,
Speaker 1: m that is there that's often the poll is I
Speaker 1: want to find somebody I you know, like I'm at
Speaker 1: a place where like I want to be connected and
Speaker 1: be in a relationship. And you know, whether it's say,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no good men out here or you know,
Speaker 1: in her case, she found somebody she really clicked with, UM,
Speaker 1: but you know, he hadn't gone like, he wasn't well
Speaker 1: at you cated, and didn't fit sort of the image
Speaker 1: of her life. And by the time she sort of
Speaker 1: was pushing herself to get over that, she kind of
Speaker 1: ruined that relationship. You know, she had made it really difficult,
Speaker 1: and so I could see her character sort of coming
Speaker 1: in around like I just want to figure out like
Speaker 1: who do I you know, like how can I get
Speaker 1: better at dating? And you know, like I'm sick of
Speaker 1: not being you know, in a relationship. How do I
Speaker 1: fix this? How do I find the right one? Okay,
Speaker 1: So what are some of the strategies you might use
Speaker 1: to work with her around kind of getting ready to
Speaker 1: date and you know, dating more successfully. Um. Probably one
Speaker 1: of the least favorite things of all my clients were
Speaker 1: to say, is well, you know, the only thing we
Speaker 1: can work on is you that like, and the truth
Speaker 1: is that's you know, and you know, I know that,
Speaker 1: you know, like that's the secret sauce. Like, if you
Speaker 1: are unhappy, whether it's dating or you're married or your kids, Like,
Speaker 1: if you are unhappy about the way your relationships are working,
Speaker 1: the best place to start is going out, Well, what's
Speaker 1: going on with me? What is it that I'm looking for?
Speaker 1: What do I need? How am I contributing? You know,
Speaker 1: how am I getting in my own way of having
Speaker 1: that or attracting those people or creating that? And you know,
Speaker 1: the storyline was so perfect because really she had she
Speaker 1: would have come in having a very tangible moment for
Speaker 1: us to really work around. So then let's go back
Speaker 1: and let's talk about it like what did what did
Speaker 1: you really like about this guy? You know, what felt
Speaker 1: right about it? And then what felt wrong about it?
Speaker 1: And what was that like? And sort of really challenging
Speaker 1: some of those unconscious um or conscious but those long
Speaker 1: held beliefs about what the perfect partner is supposed to
Speaker 1: look like for her and helping her to really explode,
Speaker 1: to really read define what that means. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: seems like there was a point in this season which
Speaker 1: would have likely been the point where she would have
Speaker 1: gone to therapy. So after the whole um pseudo relationship
Speaker 1: with the Gina's character, I forget his name on the show. UM,
Speaker 1: but when he you know, kind of seemed like he
Speaker 1: was and in and then showed up to the Engage
Speaker 1: reporting because Um, according to him, it really felt like
Speaker 1: she needed to have a win kind of thing. UM,
Speaker 1: So that felt really crushing. I think even as an
Speaker 1: outside of the looking in UM. You know, so I'm
Speaker 1: thinking that likely would have been the point where she
Speaker 1: would have kind of stepped back into it. Okay, you know,
Speaker 1: I really need to kind of figure out what's going
Speaker 1: on with me and the guys that I am attracting
Speaker 1: to me UM that this doesn't ever attend to end
Speaker 1: up the way that I'm wanting it to. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: to totally agree. I think that would have been a
Speaker 1: key moment. And then I think also when she had
Speaker 1: when she and Umsa had the big fight and then
Speaker 1: like kind of weren't Like I think that's another sort
Speaker 1: of relationship point where it's like, I mean, they both
Speaker 1: they've said something they really you know, when people know
Speaker 1: you really well and care about you and you get
Speaker 1: angry and you kind of call each other out on
Speaker 1: some of your your your issues or you know, some
Speaker 1: of the things that you're maybe not addressing. I felt
Speaker 1: like that was a bit would have been potentially been
Speaker 1: another point of coming in to really talk about like
Speaker 1: isn't this working? And I suspect it would have started
Speaker 1: from a place of how do I get over these
Speaker 1: people who are treating me wrong as opposed to what's
Speaker 1: going on with me that this is this seems to
Speaker 1: keep happening, or that that's you know, and that's my experiences,
Speaker 1: which is what I love about therapy is that it's
Speaker 1: a process, and so in some ways it doesn't really
Speaker 1: matter where you start, Like what that that pivotal moment
Speaker 1: is that says I'm gonna go and I'm gonna try
Speaker 1: this or I'm gonna look at things that you know,
Speaker 1: you developed this rapport and then we begin to sort
Speaker 1: of unpack all of it that maybe it's not just
Speaker 1: these other people or that you're just attracting the wrong type.
Speaker 1: But you know, what does that say when you're with
Speaker 1: somebody who doesn't know you really well and that the
Speaker 1: energy around you is that you needed a win that
Speaker 1: you know, like here's this person who's sort of like yeah,
Speaker 1: like out of this, you know, I mean it was
Speaker 1: a crushing thing to say, but sort of this very
Speaker 1: misguided kind of sense of compassion, like it just feels
Speaker 1: like you can't catch a break and you're really like hurting.
Speaker 1: And you know, as terrible as that moment was, you know,
Speaker 1: I would want to help her to sort of say, like,
Speaker 1: but what do you think he was picking up on?
Speaker 1: Because people do pick up on stuff? You know what
Speaker 1: was he totally wrong? Right? Right? And so you're talking about, um,
Speaker 1: you know, some work that can be very difficult, especially
Speaker 1: you know if someone comes in saying, well the issue
Speaker 1: is not me, it's all these other people around me. Um.
Speaker 1: And so to help them to kind of get to
Speaker 1: a place where they are able to kind of look
Speaker 1: at their own stuff, Um, can you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about what needs to happen or you know, what
Speaker 1: kinds of things you maybe do as a therapist to
Speaker 1: try to help someone kind of get a little closer
Speaker 1: to that place. Yeah, you know, my personal approach or
Speaker 1: my professional APPROACHEC I guess I should say, is I
Speaker 1: like to meet people exactly where they are. So if
Speaker 1: that's what you if you come in and that's just
Speaker 1: what you're thinking, then we're going to start there. But
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is asked is us
Speaker 1: building a relationship and then be asking questions that are uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know, I think that's the process
Speaker 1: that happens has to happen in tandem. You have to
Speaker 1: learn to sort of trust that I care about you,
Speaker 1: that you know, I see the best qualities in you.
Speaker 1: I want you know that I understand what you want
Speaker 1: to achieve, what you want in your life. And then
Speaker 1: that foundation of trust allows me to say, Okay, first
Speaker 1: of all, you're the only person here, so like I
Speaker 1: can't fix anybody else that's out there, even if there
Speaker 1: is a problem, So whether it's something that they're doing
Speaker 1: or the fact that you continue being related them, either way,
Speaker 1: we have to work with what's in the room. And
Speaker 1: what's in the room is you know, you and I
Speaker 1: and let's talk about that. But you know, I try to.
Speaker 1: I think every therapist does it a little differently, but
Speaker 1: ultimately I do think it begins with our ability to
Speaker 1: create a safe environment and a healthy therapeutic relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I completely agree with you. I think, especially you know,
Speaker 1: when it has been maybe so difficult to finally take
Speaker 1: the step of going to see it therapi is um.
Speaker 1: You know, people don't want to feel judged or you know,
Speaker 1: kind of like you're gonna be jumping down their throat
Speaker 1: saying you're the problem. You're the problem, you're the problem,
Speaker 1: as opposed to Okay, I can gently hold whatever you're
Speaker 1: coming in with and we can kind of work towards
Speaker 1: whatever goal you set for yourself. Yeah, and you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm big on when I tell you know, and
Speaker 1: I'd say this in session sometimes, you know, when I'm
Speaker 1: saying that we need to work on to you, that's
Speaker 1: not the same as me saying that you're the problem.
Speaker 1: It's just you hold the power to make changes in
Speaker 1: your life. No one else actually can control that. And
Speaker 1: so you know, for me saying let's work on you
Speaker 1: and your stuff and let's understand kind of your experience
Speaker 1: how we got here, it's really ultimately my goal is
Speaker 1: I want you to feel empowered. I want you to
Speaker 1: feel like the more you learn and understand who you
Speaker 1: are and how you operate relationships and and what are
Speaker 1: someone maybe the beliefs that get in the way of
Speaker 1: you having what you really want yourself. The more of
Speaker 1: that you do, the more in charge of your life,
Speaker 1: you will be caught because notter than what else happens,
Speaker 1: you understand yourself well enough to make better choices, engage
Speaker 1: in better relationships, set healthier boundaries. All of that stuff
Speaker 1: is really ultimately about I want you to live your
Speaker 1: best life. I want you to feel like you're capable
Speaker 1: of doing that because you understand yourself better as opposed
Speaker 1: to looking for somebody to blame. So it sounds like
Speaker 1: you see women like Molly um pretty frequently in your practice. UM, So,
Speaker 1: can you maybe give us, like some themes that have
Speaker 1: come up with um, you know, in your work around
Speaker 1: people who are struggling with dating, like some of the
Speaker 1: things you have helped them to kind of do. So
Speaker 1: I would say probably, you know, the number one theme
Speaker 1: is usually what we and a lot of time talking
Speaker 1: about is vulnerability. How do you make how can you
Speaker 1: open yourself up? Because a lot of times at the
Speaker 1: root of some of these things like oh he has
Speaker 1: to look this way, he has to you know, have
Speaker 1: this kind of job, drive, this kind of car um
Speaker 1: or you know, feeling like you can't connect with people
Speaker 1: is really often about that there's a wall up. It's
Speaker 1: about sort of self protection and so beginning to kind
Speaker 1: of slow down the process, like, Okay, what is it
Speaker 1: that you want to have in a relationship beyond those
Speaker 1: surface things? And you know, for the most part, we
Speaker 1: all want the same thing. We want to feel loved
Speaker 1: and appreciated and cared for and respected. And in order
Speaker 1: to create that, we have to also be able to
Speaker 1: tolerate really difficult things like disappointment and sadness and rejection.
Speaker 1: And that's often where the work starts. When I talk
Speaker 1: about doing that, like we gotta work on your stuff.
Speaker 1: It's usually around either an early relationship, um, you know,
Speaker 1: a first boyfriend and a previous marriage, or oftentimes and
Speaker 1: childhood um trauma or childhood relationships, be it with their
Speaker 1: father or and sometimes it's it's actually the relationship with
Speaker 1: one's mother. I know, we you know, we all kind
Speaker 1: of hear, you know, oh, she's got daddy issues and
Speaker 1: that's the problem. But really understanding what we learn in
Speaker 1: childhood about how safe it is to truly love somebody,
Speaker 1: to really trust someone, to sort of allow ourselves to
Speaker 1: fully be present and seen by other people, starts with
Speaker 1: both parents, not just you know, your dad. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's very powerful. I mean, and I think that has
Speaker 1: been my experience too. Is that a lot of the
Speaker 1: relationship issue that you're kind of finding in romantic relationships
Speaker 1: stems from, you know, those early childhood relationships. And so
Speaker 1: I know, you know, we don't want to kind of
Speaker 1: get to theoretical or give an entire treatment playing UM,
Speaker 1: but can you speak briefly about um, like what kinds
Speaker 1: of things you would do to work through some of
Speaker 1: that childhood trauma? Like when something like that has been
Speaker 1: kind of you know, on you for so many years
Speaker 1: and you're just realizing like, oh, that's where a lot
Speaker 1: of that comes from. What kinds of things can you
Speaker 1: do in therapy to work through some of that? Sure,
Speaker 1: So I am I tend to be very processed oriented therapist,
Speaker 1: and so UM in session, really we just spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time talking um. You know, so it's a
Speaker 1: lot of me listening, and I spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time listening for process and then pointing that stuff out.
Speaker 1: And so it's just like I just want us to
Speaker 1: discuss it. I don't want to be able to say
Speaker 1: to you. I wonder if that's related to that experience
Speaker 1: you told me about, you know, when you were seven
Speaker 1: with your mom. I see this parallel? Do you see
Speaker 1: the parallel? Can you see how when you felt rejected
Speaker 1: you know, by her around this particular area, that that
Speaker 1: same feeling is happening here. And then we've over time
Speaker 1: beginning to of practice UM, particularly once somebody is actually
Speaker 1: dating someone else, you know, really kind of when there's
Speaker 1: a conflict or when you're feeling insecure in a relationship,
Speaker 1: bringing that up and sort of going okay, can you
Speaker 1: slow that down? Can you now is that because they're
Speaker 1: triggering something that's old or is that because of something
Speaker 1: that's happening in the present, And can you learn to
Speaker 1: do that more tangibly. Most of my homework centers around
Speaker 1: self care UM, because you know, we teach other people
Speaker 1: how to love and care for us, and so if
Speaker 1: we're not practicing that in our daily lives, we're going
Speaker 1: to consistently attract people who don't take care of us
Speaker 1: the way we really need to be taken care of. UM.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we attract people and it's it's very toxic, and
Speaker 1: sometimes it's just if you don't know, then you can
Speaker 1: never express to another person what it is that makes
Speaker 1: you feel cared for and nurtured. And loved and you know, um,
Speaker 1: you know, appreciated And so a lot of my homework
Speaker 1: is around acticing self care. What does that look like? UM?
Speaker 1: What did you do? How can we practice being gentler
Speaker 1: with ourselves? So some of it are like you know,
Speaker 1: making time for journaling, UM, exercise, eating while massages. You know,
Speaker 1: some of it is like very personal and big on.
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to create your own personal self
Speaker 1: care plan. So that could be getting up and you know,
Speaker 1: with enough time that you're not rushing, or it could
Speaker 1: be an afternoon coffee, or it could be making time
Speaker 1: to read a couple of times a week because you
Speaker 1: really like books. Whatever it is that sort of feeds
Speaker 1: your own individual needs. UM, but beginning to understand what
Speaker 1: that is, identify it, and practice it on a regular basis.
Speaker 1: I really like that, Esther. I think that's the first
Speaker 1: time I've heard, um, anybody put self care in terms
Speaker 1: of like what that looks like for dating, UM and
Speaker 1: thinking about you know, if you are not taking good
Speaker 1: care of yourself, then how can you teach someone and
Speaker 1: expect other people to do that same thing? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's such a we have to always say,
Speaker 1: like you need to be the partner that you want
Speaker 1: to have and you know, not entirely, but right, we've
Speaker 1: got to establish that kind of foundation. Um. I see
Speaker 1: it a lot with my couples, and so over the
Speaker 1: years I've learned to kind of like, I gotta backtrack it, Like,
Speaker 1: let's start doing that while we're dating, so that you know,
Speaker 1: you can then carry that forward when you do find
Speaker 1: somebody that you want to be in a committed relationship with. Right, So,
Speaker 1: what are some tips for our listeners who may be
Speaker 1: struggling with some challenges that may be similar to Molly's,
Speaker 1: Like what kinds of tips are things could you offer? Um, well, obviously,
Speaker 1: you know professional bias, So my first tip would be
Speaker 1: just try therapy. Um, you know, I mean I always
Speaker 1: sort of you know, I'm half kidding but not really.
Speaker 1: Part of the challenge is what she's trying to establish
Speaker 1: an authentic connection with another person, and there is a
Speaker 1: skill set that that you need to have in order
Speaker 1: to do that, and therapy basically is a place for
Speaker 1: you to practice that with somebody who is really good
Speaker 1: at it. Like your therapist isn't figuring out how to
Speaker 1: have authentic, genuine connection with you. They know how to
Speaker 1: do that. I mean hopefully that's part of the training
Speaker 1: is that they understand how to set healthy boundaries. They
Speaker 1: understand how to be, you know, a tune to your needs.
Speaker 1: So it's a really safe place for you to practice.
Speaker 1: How do you do those things? Where are the places
Speaker 1: where you don't do that really well? And so that's
Speaker 1: definitely one of them. I think seeking out, you know,
Speaker 1: practicing accepting a little bit of constructive criticism, and this
Speaker 1: is one of those like you need to be very
Speaker 1: thoughtful and careful you allow to sort of be this
Speaker 1: person in your life, but really looking at the people
Speaker 1: that are around you that care about you, and asking
Speaker 1: those people that you trust, who you really genuinely believe
Speaker 1: always have your best interests in mind, know you really
Speaker 1: well and that if you gave them permission, would be
Speaker 1: really honest with you, because I think, you know, as
Speaker 1: difficult as it was, I think that's part of what
Speaker 1: she needs to have for with each other is this
Speaker 1: is a person who knows you well enough and accepts
Speaker 1: you unconditionally that you can also begin you know, intimacy
Speaker 1: and emotional intimacy isn't just for romantic relationships. It's also
Speaker 1: in friendship and in a family, and so figuring out
Speaker 1: do you have that anywhere in life? And if you do,
Speaker 1: then kind of really cultivating that connection a little bit
Speaker 1: UM more intentionally can also be really helpful. And and
Speaker 1: then self care that would be my other is you
Speaker 1: know the more because the real secret there is that
Speaker 1: the more you practice figuring out how do I take
Speaker 1: care of myself, how do I show myself more love
Speaker 1: and consideration and um and patience and compassion, the easier
Speaker 1: it is for you to ask for help in other places.
Speaker 1: A lot of the block is often it's negative self talk.
Speaker 1: It's what will people think of me? It's judgment that
Speaker 1: gets between UM many women similar to Molly and actually
Speaker 1: engaging in in therapy or even just in being able
Speaker 1: to really allow themselves to be fully present in a
Speaker 1: romantic relationship. Yeah. When you brought up the whole idea
Speaker 1: of UM, you know, her being able to tolerate constructive
Speaker 1: criticism from other people in her life. UM, I also
Speaker 1: think that she would be like the ideal candidate for
Speaker 1: a process group because I think that if she couldn't
Speaker 1: tolerate getting the constructive criticism from the people in her life,
Speaker 1: I think it would um go well for her to
Speaker 1: be able to kind of be in a group of
Speaker 1: strangers who she develops relationships with, for her to be
Speaker 1: able to get the feedback about how she comes across
Speaker 1: the people, because I think that that also is a
Speaker 1: part of her issue, is that she doesn't really know,
Speaker 1: like the perception that she gives off to other people. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think a group is always just amazing.
Speaker 1: I think, um for lots of things, but I think
Speaker 1: it would be I think you're right, really a perfect
Speaker 1: opportunity and would be much easier to tolerate because there
Speaker 1: could she could also maintain some separation, right, get to
Speaker 1: be I'm going to start learning to be much more
Speaker 1: vulnerable and can hear some of this stuff, and then
Speaker 1: I can go back to my real life and practice
Speaker 1: it and see how it works, rather than feeling the
Speaker 1: pressure to integrate those two things exactly. So, do you
Speaker 1: have any resources to go along with those wonderful tips
Speaker 1: that you just gave us, Any books or blogs or websites, um,
Speaker 1: Things that you think that our listeners would benefit related
Speaker 1: to these issues. Yeah, definitely. Um So, I mean in
Speaker 1: terms of looking at things like working on the self,
Speaker 1: compassion and the Vulnerability. I'm a big fan, um as
Speaker 1: maybe of a therapist. Are you know Bernie Brown's work, Um,
Speaker 1: I actually really like some of her One of her
Speaker 1: earlier books, UM, The Gifts of Imperfection, which I think
Speaker 1: is an easy read and sort of gives very concrete steps,
Speaker 1: like try practicing that's try practicing that. Another book that
Speaker 1: I really like is called Self Compassion by Kristin Neff. Again,
Speaker 1: I think it offers both sort of an intellectual understanding
Speaker 1: and then some tangible practical things that you can do
Speaker 1: trying to think in terms of there's a ton of
Speaker 1: just great websites and blogs, and none of which I'm
Speaker 1: going to be able to like name off the top
Speaker 1: of my head, but you know, I'm a big fan
Speaker 1: for like, you know, google my clients stuff all the time,
Speaker 1: Like I just found here's a great article five ways
Speaker 1: to be gentle with yourself and have rough day. Or
Speaker 1: I will send people like playlists like here's a playlist
Speaker 1: when you're feeling particularly raw or vulnerable, or you know,
Speaker 1: to help you start to think about what it would
Speaker 1: look like. One of the other which is not necessarily
Speaker 1: a tangible resource, but one of the things I also
Speaker 1: ask a lot of my clients who are where we're
Speaker 1: working around dating issues is you know, to make a
Speaker 1: list and get a notebook and kind of make a
Speaker 1: list of the qualities they want that they think they're
Speaker 1: looking for in a partner, what kind of dates would
Speaker 1: you go on with that partner, and then starting to
Speaker 1: use that as kind of a map for like, well,
Speaker 1: what are you doing while you're single? So if you
Speaker 1: want to date somebody who's going to take you to wineries,
Speaker 1: then I want you to go take yourself to a winery.
Speaker 1: If you want to date somebody who is really into
Speaker 1: art and you can discuss art with, then I want
Speaker 1: you to like join a meetup group and go to
Speaker 1: a gallery and then actually talk to people about the artwork.
Speaker 1: But that's just that's sort of a homework thing that
Speaker 1: I like to offer full as well, like we need
Speaker 1: to practice sort of doing the things that we think
Speaker 1: we want in a relationship. That sounds like a great activity,
Speaker 1: so as I also want you to talk to us
Speaker 1: more about your practice, um and the things that you're
Speaker 1: doing in the community, because you're doing some really awesome
Speaker 1: things related to you know you mentioned before, like the
Speaker 1: stigma related to mental health and how that often keeps
Speaker 1: black women from seeking therapy. UM. So can you tell
Speaker 1: us more about your practice and some of the things
Speaker 1: you're doing, as well as where we can find you
Speaker 1: on social media. My practice is based in the Washington,
Speaker 1: D C. Area Group Therapy Associates and you know, really,
Speaker 1: I would say sort of the underlying you know, vision,
Speaker 1: as I started with twofold one, is about reducing the
Speaker 1: stigma around mental health and therapy UM. And then sort
Speaker 1: of as a tangent to that is making that more accessible.
Speaker 1: So I think beginning to think about that there are
Speaker 1: other ways free to engage and connect with therapists. Ideally,
Speaker 1: eventually you get into the office and you're doing some sessions,
Speaker 1: but you know, going to workshops. You know, I love
Speaker 1: that you brought up, you know, doing process groups. Groups
Speaker 1: are one of my favorite things to do. I think
Speaker 1: that's a really cool thing to do. So some of
Speaker 1: the stuff that we do does include UM. In fact,
Speaker 1: this upcoming week, I have a couple of dinner so
Speaker 1: it's like dinner and wine pairing and myself and another
Speaker 1: one of the therapist for my practice for couples, and
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about intimacy and building and maintaining
Speaker 1: emotional connection, and so I do. I have a whole
Speaker 1: division where we sort of take a lot of therapeutic
Speaker 1: topics out of the office and begin to introduce them
Speaker 1: as a way for people to think about them. And
Speaker 1: then if you decide you want to go deeper, obviously,
Speaker 1: then you can kind of call the office and work
Speaker 1: with somebody who want on one. So that's um, some
Speaker 1: of what I'm doing. I guess the one sort of
Speaker 1: passion project I've got going on right now is called
Speaker 1: therapy is not a dirty word. It is a Q
Speaker 1: and a happy hour. So, um, just going to different cities,
Speaker 1: ringing local therapists out of their offices, getting everybody you
Speaker 1: know now on therapists come out and we just sort
Speaker 1: of hang out and have like really great conversation. It's
Speaker 1: not a traditional panel where we're sort of lecturing. It
Speaker 1: really is, you know, people just kind of sitting around
Speaker 1: asking questions everything from some of the stuff you and
Speaker 1: I talked about, you know, book recommendations to you know,
Speaker 1: why become a therapist, or you know, talking about you know,
Speaker 1: how can somebody work on their relationship or something like that.
Speaker 1: So that's one of that's kind of my passion project
Speaker 1: at the moment um is you know, showing up with
Speaker 1: lots of different cities and doing those happy hours. Very cool,
Speaker 1: very cool. Like I said, I think you have some
Speaker 1: very cool things going on, So I definitely want people
Speaker 1: to pay attention to if any of those events will
Speaker 1: be in a city close to you and definitely trying
Speaker 1: to go out and it's in those yes, definitely. UM
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. As to
Speaker 1: b M f T, my practice is also on those places.
Speaker 1: I always sort of saying like the easiest thing to
Speaker 1: do is if you go to esther Boykatt dot com,
Speaker 1: then whichever sort of little corner of my work world
Speaker 1: that you're interested in, you'll find links for it there.
Speaker 1: So whether it's the conversations off the couch events which
Speaker 1: are UM primarily based in the DC area, therapy is
Speaker 1: not a dirty word, which as I said, it is
Speaker 1: kind of everywhere. Um, you were in London not too
Speaker 1: long ago. We've got a couple events in d C
Speaker 1: coming up UM and through this UM in July will
Speaker 1: be in l A well in Atlanta soon, so like
Speaker 1: we're coming, We're coming, We're coming. It's lots of different
Speaker 1: places yes, very cool. And all of this information will
Speaker 1: be included in the show notes so you don't have
Speaker 1: to worry about trying to figure all this out and
Speaker 1: I'll have handy links for everybody. Well. Esther, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for spending some time and sharing all these
Speaker 1: amazing resources and great conversation with us. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. This has been so fun. Um.
Speaker 1: I just I love the conversation. I love being able
Speaker 1: to connect with out a therapist and and have these
Speaker 1: kind of conversations, you know, just a little out of
Speaker 1: the box thinking, because I think it's just such a
Speaker 1: great way for us to connect with connect what we
Speaker 1: do with like everyday life. So thank you again so much.
Speaker 1: You're very welcome. So as you can see, Esther dropped
Speaker 1: tons of gems that I think could be very helpful
Speaker 1: for you to apply in some of the situations in
Speaker 1: your lives. To find all of the resources and things
Speaker 1: that she mentioned in the episode, make sure to check
Speaker 1: out the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot
Speaker 1: com slash Session twelve, and please make sure to let
Speaker 1: us know what you think of the episode. Use the
Speaker 1: hashtag tb G in session and you can find us
Speaker 1: all over social media at Therapy for Black Girls, and
Speaker 1: Instagram and Facebook We're at Therapy for Black Girls, and
Speaker 1: on Twitter, We're at Therapy for the Number four be Girls.
Speaker 1: And make sure to share this with one of your
Speaker 1: special girlfriends so that you guys can chat about it
Speaker 1: before we get called up with the next season in July.
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to continuing this conversation with you all
Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care,